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The perils of prolonged, march of folly-triggered crisis (of watersheds, slippery slopes and divide and ruin . . . )

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As I have pondered the current exchanges at UD and wider circumstances and trends with our civilisation, I have been reminded of the local prolonged volcano eruption triggered disaster and crisis that is now of over twenty years standing.

Yesterday, I put up this visualisation of what I am thinking about — prolonged crisis with double, linked slippery slopes:

tapered divide

Here, I see how a window of opportunity for sound change can narrow down to a dangerous ridge line with two slippery slopes, where divide and domineer tactics can trigger falling down BOTH escarpments in a mutual ruin of polarisation and folly.

At the same time, I think of Tsubakurodake ridge, Japan, with a ridge-line trail (as we can see).

What that brings to mind, is that here we can see a circumstance where there is prolonged peril of falling into division, mutual polarisation and mutual ruin that invites intervention by the domineering.

Where also, the longer the situation goes on, the harder it is to turn back and escape to sound footing and a safer path.

An excellent example of this is the folly of internal division in Israel in the context of challenging the Greek yoke from 168 BC on (as the books of the Maccabees record) where decades later the Romans were invited in by a faction seeking advantage in a local Hasmonean power struggle. The Romans of course never left.

Likewise, when Greece stood in unity in the face of the Persian invasion, and won, the Athenians unwisely moved from Delian League to Athenian empire, triggering decades of civil wars among the Greeks. The Persians intervened and eventually Athens the dominant naval power (having already fatally weakened itself through the failed Sicilian expedition championed by Alcibiades) was finally defeated by a Spartan led fleet financed by the Persians. Where of course Alcibiades, on the eve of the expedition to Sicily faced a crisis over his recklessly amoral behaviour that led him to defect to Sparta and then (having cuckolded a Spartan king) onward to Persia and eventually back to Athens. In the end, the Athenians preferred to lose the crucial battle on their own rather than trust the counsel of the clever but utterly amoral and manipulative Alcibiades.

In the course of this conflict, the Athenians also went to Persian Satraps for help, with the sometimes this, sometimes that Alcibiades involved up to his eyeballs.

Then (with Athens broken), the Thebans had to break Spartan power in a decisive land battle at Leuctra. A battle that showed the power of a pinning, distractive attack and a concentrated decisive thrust at a schwerpunkt — which would be chillingly echoed in the Ardennes and on the plains of Belgium from May 10, 1940.

And of course Philip of Macedon was the ultimate winner of the intra-Greek 100+ years war, with his son, Alexander then taking the fight to the Persians. (During which, Israel passed from Persian to Greek domination.)

us_islam100yr

Another chilling parallel is the fight to mutual exhaustion between the Eastern Roman empire (Byzantium) and the Parthians (heirs of the Persians) that came to a nominal Byzantine victory in 628 AD. Of course, the Muslim invasions followed, leading to their 100 years of dramatic expansion from Medina and Mecca in Arabia to India in the East and to 150 miles from Paris in the West.

This last, we would do well to remember as we contemplate the 100 year Muslim Brotherhood plan for global subjugation. Not to mention, their settlement jihad strategy.

All of these reflections bring me back to the issue of a prolonged cultural civil war that we so plainly face in our civilisation, where once a march of folly agenda has become entrenched . . . which, as Ac 27 reminds us, can be by way of manipulated democracy . . .  ill-advised business as usual can persist in the face of signs of the sort of prolonged crisis and watershed with dual slippery slopes that has been illustrated above:

change_chall

As I ponder the increasingly bizarre issues that seem to now be on the agenda of public debate in our civilisation (cf here, here and here recently at UD) Machiavelli’s warning seems to have redoubled force.

It seems there is drastic need for sound reformation before it is utterly too late (and, frankly, it may be too late already), which requires assessment of the commanding heights of the community, worldview and cultural/policy agenda trends and drivers:

seven_mountains_culture_agenda

All of this is relevant to the wider context of the deeply polarised debates over design and imposition of Lewontin’s a priori, lab coat clad evolutionary materialism.

For, it was not for nothing that Plato warned us as follows in The Laws, Bk X c 360 BC even as the prolonged Greek march of folly played out to a bitter end (NB: Aristotle, Plato’s pupil, was hired by Philip to tutor Alexander and companions):

>>Ath. . . . [[The avant garde philosophers and poets, c. 360 BC] say that fire and water, and earth and air [[i.e the classical “material” elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art, and that as to the bodies which come next in order-earth, and sun, and moon, and stars-they have been created by means of these absolutely inanimate existences. The elements are severally moved by chance and some inherent force according to certain affinities among them-of hot with cold, or of dry with moist, or of soft with hard, and according to all the other accidental admixtures of opposites which have been formed by necessity. After this fashion and in this manner the whole heaven has been created, and all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only. [[In short, evolutionary materialism premised on chance plus necessity acting without intelligent guidance on primordial matter is hardly a new or a primarily “scientific” view! Notice also, the trichotomy of causal factors:  (a) chance/accident, (b) mechanical necessity of nature, (c) art or intelligent design and direction.] . . . .

[[Thus, they hold that t]he Gods exist not by nature, but by art, and by the laws of states, which are different in different places, according to the agreement of those who make them; and that the honourable is one thing by nature and another thing by law, and that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.– [[Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT. (Cf. here for Locke’s views and sources on a very different base for grounding liberty as opposed to license and resulting anarchistic “every man does what is right in his own eyes” chaos leading to tyranny. )] These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might [[ Evolutionary materialism leads to the promotion of amorality], and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [[Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality “naturally” leads to continual contentions and power struggles; cf. dramatisation here],  these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is, to live in real dominion over others [[such amoral factions, if they gain power, “naturally” tend towards ruthless tyranny], and not in legal subjection to them. >>

We can hardly say we have not been warned in good time concerning the matches we have played with in our civilisation for centuries. I find here, that an adapted, somewhat corrected form of Schaeffer’s line of despair analysis is also relevant as we ponder the way ideas have consequences:

Schaeffers_vision_extended

A key problem of course is that the lower storey tends to eat up the upper one, whether nature > grace [= the issue of theology in a material world]:

Dichotomising natrure and grace leads to disjointedness in western man's worldview
Dichotomising nature and grace leads to disjointedness in western man’s worldview

. . . or particulars > universals [= the problem of the one and the many], or nature > freedom [= the issue of responsible, rational freedom and mind in a world largely conceived in physicalist terms], or reason > faith [= the role of faith in a world of reason trending to rationalism, empiricism and skepticism], etc.

As Schaeffer so often said, ideas have consequences.

In our current debates we should ponder with Girgis et al on the increasing loss of the conjugal understanding of marriage, and its implicit societal costs:

Especially, as we ponder how the death toll from the US’s abortion holocaust under false colour of law now mounts up towards 60 millions, and how the global one (per numbers suggested by Guttmacher) is running at perhaps 40 – 50 millions per year.

Bloodguilt — especially mass bloodguilt such as this — is the most conscience-benumbing, heart-hardening, mind endarkening force I can think of.

If you need to explain our civilisation’s marches of folly,

Of Lemmings, marches of folly and cliffs of self-falsifying absurdity . . .
Of Lemmings, marches of folly and cliffs of self-falsifying absurdity . . .

. . . that would be a very good place to start.

Where also, as rights, sound governance, morality and natural law are pivotal concerns in the debate, allow me to share these thoughts again (as originally given in the context of attempts to homosexualise marriage).

Let me first remind of Masha Gessen’s let the cat out of the bag remarks:

gessen_vs_marriage

Now, let me clip:

>>1 –> inescapably, we are morally governed as individuals and as communities.

2 –> on pain of immediate, patent absurdities, core moral principles are evident to conscience guided reason to certainty and are binding.

3 –> systems of thought that reduce morality to subjectivity, relativism or to illusion end in implying grand delusion and utter unreliability of our intelligence and conscience.

4 –> likewise, for things that undermine the premise that we have responsible, rational freedom and quasi-infinite worth and dignity; aptly captured in the traditional Judaeo Christan premise that we are equally created in the image of the good God and just Lord of all worlds.

5 –> Right to life, to liberty, to conscience and responsible expression, to innocent reputation, to the fruit of our labour and more flow from this, as say the US DoI of 1776 epochally acknowledges.

6 –> That document sums up this view in terms of the laws of nature and of nature’s God. It has far deeper idea roots and a centuries deep history behind it. Its legacy of liberty speaks for itself. Let me clip its first two paragraphs, noting the right of reformation and if necessary revolution in the face of a long train of abuses and usurpations (where the ballot box provides a peaceful instrument of audit, replacement, reformation and revolution but is critically dependent on an informed, responsible public cf the Ac 27 case here . . . a sobering lesson on the perils of manipulated democracy):

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.–That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

7 –> In this context, a core basic right is a binding moral expectation to be respected in regards to key aspects of our nature. That is, it is the mirror image and dual of mutually binding obligations imposed by our nature and its inherent dignity. That is rights are inherently matters of moral law connected to our nature.

8 –> As a consequence, a rights claim is a claim to be in the right and to be owed duties of care by others of like morally freighted nature.

9 –> You cannot have a right to the wrong, you cannot demand that others enable and support you in the wrong, such is to poison other souls with the taint of compulsion to do and to support the wrong. Such is monstrous and wicked.

10 –> Likewise, there are no rights to twist key institutions crucial to human thriving as individuals, families and communities. For the blessings of the civil peace of justice and liberty under legitimate law are key requisites of human thriving.

11 –> This holds for demanding that marriage be perverted through lawfare and agit prop, and the linked demand that sexual perversion be acknowledged on equal terms with the manifest order of nature stamped into our genes, organs, biology of reproduction and social- psychological- relational requisites of sound child nurture.>>

Ideas have consequences, and our civilisation faces sobering concerns and issues as we go through a prolonged crisis.

Walking a tightrope is not sustainable for a civilisation.

I think it is highly advisable for us to turn back, addressing both the prevailing worldviews climate and the agendas being imposed on us through the seven mountain commanding heights of a community or civilisation.

Where, also, we need to face the even more challenging question of our own degree of complicity in the problem. Ranging from being swept up in a march of folly, to becoming an activist enabler, to involvement in astro-turfed pseudo-grassroots front groups, to the rarer involvement as a strategic decision maker shaping radical, destructive agendas. In this, I must also . . . under the doctrine of fair comment, point to the rise of Cultural Marxism, the red- double green de facto alliance between the radical secularist left, radical environmentalists and IslamISTS. Clipping from the just linked:

In effect [in Cultural Marxism], we see neo-Marxist analysis transformed from the classic class war to an ideology for identity/minority group activism driven by a sense of oppression to be overthrown; which — per fair comment — can all too easily be manipulated into subversion of institutions, law, policy and community life, in the end demanding approval of evil in the name of true freedom and liberation. Activisim that can easily become pretty ruthless factionalism that may easily run the risk of pushing democracy into mob rule. And, when ruthless activists gain institutional power, a big problem is that they have not learned the habits of sound, balanced, mutually respectful governance, but instead those of ruthlessness.

This montage will help make my point (notice, the red star on the tee-shirt and the rainbow coloured umbrellas):

cultmarx

As a civilisation, we have some thinking and very carefully judged changing and reforming to do. In a very perilous situation where time is not on our side.

Let us begin to think, very, very carefully — while remembering Machiavelli’s warning on political hectic fever. END

PS: The Rick Rescorla story points out how to most people on Sept 10, 2001, the idea of what happened just a day later was unthinkable. But he had foreseen it with his informal security think-tank team all the way back to 1993. Notice, how hard it was to acknowledge the realities and trends. I add this, because it seems necessary — in light of dismissive comments below — to draw attention to the need to understand the risks that are being run with our civilisation (just as happened at Fair Havens in mid-October 59 AD):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbHugnu91tY

PPS: It seems that in response to objections being made I should headline a summary of

>> . . . the agit prop employed by marxists of various stripes — including cultural marxists taking the long subversive march through the socio-cultural institutions — and by their ideological kissing cousins the fascists over the past 100 years.

I again cite the neo-Marxist Alinsky’s key tactics:

5] “Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon.” There is no defense. It’s irrational. It’s infuriating. It also works as a key pressure point to force the enemy into concessions.

13] “Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.” Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions.

I summarise that agit-prop- activism- and- lawfare- as- an- agenda tends to:

a: sweep up alienated minorities or classes, proceeding onwards to

b: create a dominant narrative of oppression and proposed liberation under messianistic leadership/movements, thus

c: carries with it those who have been indoctrinated and polarised, bringing them under the influence of

d: enabling activists and front groups or issues movements, many of which are in fact

e: astro turf, i.e. pseudo grassroots, not genuinely spontaneous (or else have been infiltrated, betrayed and co-opted for the radical cause by agenda serving agit prop activists), being manipulated and controlled by

f: calculated strategies and cultural/policy agendas, created and sustained by

g: strategic level ideologues, planners and backers/funders. Where the game plan is

seven_mountains_culture_agenda

h: to seize dominant control of several key cultural institutions thus shaping the dominant worldview, and the cultural/policy agenda and the public discussion — cf the seven mountains analysis framework in the OP above. In so doing,

i: ruthless agit prop will routinely resort to distract, distort, denigrate, stereotype, demonise and scapegoat tactics in order to

j: secure advancement of an agenda that often cannot stand the cold light of day. Where,

k: it is often assumed or implied or even outright asserted that by and large people cannot think clearly and logically so they

l: must be given simplistic, dramatic agit prop narratives that stir their resentful emotions (giving them convenient targets) and these polarising myths also

m: secure their adhesion to the politically messianistic ideology, its top leadership and the local activists. Quite often,

n: The triple tactic advocated by Kirk and Madsen is used: desensitising, jamming out contrary message sources, conversion to toleration or enabling or participation.

o: Then, the radical nihilistic ill-founded agenda, through lawfare [I include subversion of parliaments, bodies of law and regulation and of the executive insofar as this operates under law], is entrenched. Ending in

p: ruin.

These tactics I learned of in studying Nazism and in dealing with Marxists, and saw playing out in my native land to the point of triggering a mini civil war and permanently destabilising the nation through drug trade funded warlordism and politically connected gangs. I saw how the media and education were manipulated. I saw people lose rationality in crisis and go into Canetti’s the madness of crowds. I saw the stereotyping, scapegoating and targetting that Alinsky so cynically advocated.

And I saw the ruin such tactics create as communities go over the cliff and break their backs.

In the case of lawfare, I have seen how manipulation of the sword of justice and of laws can easily institutionalise evil and warp the proper functions of the state and community institutions. In particular, I saw the pernicious influence of evolutionary materialist scientism, linked amorality and institutionalisation of power in the hands of ruthless factions. And I saw the critical importance of a true understanding of moral governance and of responsible, rational freedom informed by insight into human nature and the laws of moral governance of that nature.

Which, I can see being foolishly discarded all across our civilisation as radical causes entrench themselves in the halls of power and impose marches of folly under false colour of law.>>

PPPS: The tone of objecting, dismissive commentary has taken such a stance that I have felt it necessary to remark as follows in comment 339:

>> . . . the religion card fails.

For, the issues at stake on the issue of the twisting of marriage under false colour of law are not religious but philosophical; having to do with the relevant patently, manifestly and even undeniably evident core principles of the natural moral law. That is, ethical and policy matters, having to do with foundations of justice, rights, freedoms and responsibilities of members of a free society.

(And yes, the reputation of freedom in the long term is most definitely in the stakes; the folly of our civilisation is not exactly commending the values of responsible rational freedom to rival civilisations bent on supplanting what they view as our decadent, dying, rotten civilisation. As in, let me add from the 1991 MB Explanatory Memo on the Civilisation/Settlement Jihad process:

“The process of settlement is a ‘Civilization-Jihadist Process’ with all the word means. The Ikhwan must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and ’sabotaging’ its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God’s religion is made victorious over all other religions . . .” [–> cf here for more, including the relevant phased agenda]

Never mind their own problems of boy play — forgive the necessary reference. And when freedom is in the stakes, I must be very conscious of just who, historically, have been first in line to be reduced to chattel slavery. In a context where Africa is now obviously the global geostrategic pivot, the poorly garrisoned, deeply divided strategic resource rich continent ripe for plucking by those whose evil eyes are already on it. And the Nile valley and the Levant’s neighbourhood from the Sinai to the Bosporus is the land bridge that joins three key continents. We are clearly cursed to live in historically interesting times.)

That patently evident natural moral law is manifest in the complementarity of the sexes and the requisites of sound, stable child nurture.

Law, that we scant or disregard at grave peril to our civilisation.

Further, these issues pivot on our being morally governed, responsibly and rationally free . . . which is a premise of being sufficiently rational to debate matters on fact and logic.

Further to this the extreme nominalism being gleefully imposed to try to create as a novelty in law, homosexual marriage, thereby wrenching principles of equality and rights, raises the issue as to how such abracadabra words obtain meaning and force.

The answer is quite evident above: by might and manipulation make ‘right,’ ‘truth,’ ‘value,’ ‘meaning,’ ‘law’ etc.

So while preening yourself on openness to challenge of your religion by contrast with implied fundy ignoramuses (while by implication it is patent that you have disregarded challenges given to you and others of like ilk in response to your remarks, here on worldview foundations of ethical theism and here on the William G Perry error about truth that has unfortunately been embedded into educational curricula), you are opening the door to raw nihilism and oligarchic domination by ruthlessly manipulative factions.

That is how dangerous the matches being played with are.

I suggest to you, that you would be well advised to pause and think again.

The fire that is beginning to blaze out of control will burn up more than you realise.

KF

PS: And I am very aware of the prevalence of catamites in the days of Plato and onwards in Greco-Roman culture, indeed in the Republic, the discussion of love was about diverse tastes in boys; we need not elaborate on what a Symposium was or easily became as the wine flowed with the conversation and the night wore on, at least by hinted reputation. That is part of what Rom 1 was denouncing, with Nero Caesar as deviant in chief — indeed he became the principal historical exemplar for attempted homosexualisation of marriage under false colour of law by way of — having kicked his pregnant wife to death — castrating and “marrying” a young boy who resembled her. Then, when he wanted more he manifested the inherently destabilising nature of this wrenching of marriage by “marrying” a man and mockingly imitating the cries of a virgin on her wedding night. I will not go further, into the details of public sexually tinged cannibalism (likely with Christians staked out in the Arena as targets). As, Suetonius’ Lives of the Twelve Caesars attests with horrific detail . . . just, do not read anytime close to mealtime or bedtime. I go this far as it is necessary to draw out that the sound lessons of history were paid for in blood and tears; those who disdain, neglect, ignore or reject them, doom themselves to pay the same price over and over again. Also, it is obvious that if I and others refrain from direct reference out of a sense of some things being unmentionable (indeed the first time I heard Rom 1 mentioned from the pulpit is was by way of saying that some things there were of that order, not to be discussed in public), the hints will not be taken seriously. As to connexions to religion, I will simply say that the Moon Ganymede is named after a catamite of the chief Greco-Roman god, Jupiter. Yes, this issue was literally written into our mapping of the skies.>>

. . . and this from 345 will help us address the issue of strategic subversion of our civilisation through 4th generation warfare; noting that usurping the law, law enforcement and security forces in service to a domineering agenda is perhaps even more effective (coming from within) than an attempted, obvious overthrow by openly external groups:

>>Just to make clear what a ruthless civilisation subversion agenda is like, let me further excerpt the translated MB 1991 Explanatory Memo:

“Phase One: Phase of discreet and secret establishment of leadership.

“Phase Two: Phase of gradual appearance on the public scene and exercising and utilizing various public activities (It greatly succeeded in implementing this stage). It also succeeded in achieving a great deal of its important goals, such as infiltrating various sectors of the Government. Gaining religious institutions and embracing senior scholars. Gaining public support and sympathy. Establishing a shadow government (secret) within the Government.

“Phase Three: Escalation phase, prior to conflict and confrontation with the rulers, through utilizing mass media. Currently in progress.

“Phase Four: Open public confrontation with the Government through exercising the political pressure approach. It is aggressively implementing the above-mentioned approach. Training on the use of weapons domestically and overseas in anticipation of zero-hour. It has noticeable activities in this regard.

“Phase Five: Seizing power to establish their Islamic Nation under which all parties and Islamic groups are united.”

EXERCISE: Substitute appropriate terms to see how this fits other movements associated with the red double green alliance. Ask what each member movement ultimately plans for the others and for the society at large.

Then ask yourself, first, do you want to go there, to when the diverse phases 4 and 5 begin to fully play out?

Then ask, what we should do as a civilisation in defense of ourselves as phases 3 and 4 overlap with phase 4 becoming ever more evident through lawfare.>>

Comments
I support Inquisitor in his questioning. 100 years ago slavery was OK, now we find it morally abhorrent. To the Aztecs, human sacrifice was not only OK, but a revered part of their religion, and now it extremely immoral. Inquisitors question is simply how do we know that in 50 years or so, recognition of same-sex marriage will still be seen as immoral rather than accepted, with people looking back to now in the same way we do with slavery, inter-racial marriage, etc. Inquisitor was not saying that same-sex marriage and human sacrifice are equivalent actions: he is asking how you can defend your claim that your belief about same-sex marriage is not also a culturally-embedded moral belief. ___________ ALETA, Inquisitor used an unusual comparison that carries precisely the connotation implied; we all know about Orwellian doublespeak so don't bother to pretend otherwise. Further to this, you will see that after nearly 900 comments NONE of those associated with the side that has consistently accused us of bigotry etc has pulled back even after being cautioned. Also, look at the outrageous comparison you just made -- in a context where 100 years past after centuries of struggle once a democracy was possible, slavery had already been abolished -- do you not see that it is beyond reasonable thinking and civil conduct to compare principled objection to a questionable and highly controversial move under law with a reformation that was fought for on manifest principles of the very same natural moral law that make what is being done now under colour of law highly questionable? It seems that the exact dangers pointed out by George in the OP are being carried through. In that context, we have to take implications very seriously. Where on your talking points more than enough has been said on the nihilistic import of playing legalistic and policy power games with what are now abracadabra words controlled by elites driven by inherently self-falsifying and amoral evolutionary materialism and its fellow travellers. 59, 509 or 5009 years are not going to change the complementarity of the human sexes or the substantial commitment required to sustain sound and stable child nurture and communities that support sound families. Nor will it ever be the case that one can claim from others the duty to uphold you in wrong -- not on pain of jobs, not on pain of robbing us of our children, not on pain of robbing us of a clear conscience. To have a right, you must first be in the right, and to try to manipulate moral government into power and manipulation games is nihilism, pure and simple, as Plato warned against 2350 years ago. The juggernaut that thinks it can tinker, use power and manipulation to get its way will crash our civilisation, at the price of much blood and tears; but the obvious intent is to push an increasingly bizarre agenda without limit. Until it crashes, hard and ruinously. I have now terminated this thread to serve notice that some things are being done that can easily have grave consequences,that grave disrespect has been sustained long beyond warn a divisive person once, twice, three times; and there is a refusal to recognise that lines have been insistently crossed. Game over Aleta, something is very wrong on your side and needs to be fixed. KFAleta
May 16, 2016
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Inquisitor, you were warned. KFkairosfocus
May 16, 2016
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HR: To be more explicit:
This is not dependent on whether or not Brent thinks the amount of money that disappeared passes some threshold.
Based on a subjective view, why the H-E-double-hocky-sticks not!? And sez who!?Phinehas
May 16, 2016
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Re #886:
HR, do you understand where extreme nominalism leads? As in, who defines what abracadabra magical power words mean? Thence, the nihilism of might and manipulation make ‘right,’ ‘truth,’ ‘value,’ ‘meaning,’ ‘guilt,’ ‘innocence,’ ‘justice’ etc? Do you really want our civilisation to become such a world? Do you understand what such nihilism implies? KF
KF, I do understand where you believe extreme nominalism leads. And I also understand what you believe 'such nihilism' implies. EDIT: It looks like I can not log into this thread to comment anymore. I guess this means I'll leave the last words to everybody else.hrun0815
May 16, 2016
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Re #888:
Ahahahaha! Here we have a subjectivist arguing vehemently for an objective definition of “harm” in order to support their subjectivism. The irony is both hilarious and delicious at the same time.
Phineas, do you really believe that 'subjectivists' (which in this thread refers to morals) do not use definitions of words? You also apparently failed to notice that there was no 'arguing' about the definition. Brent and I clarified that we are using the word in the same sense. His position is so outlandish to me that I wanted to make sure he is not using it in a way different from the M-W dictionary. And what, pray tell, do you mean by 'objective definitions' of a word? And finally, we have not even looked at what my moral evaluation of the situation is, so you don't know if I necessarily think that stealing $50 from BG is morally acceptable or not. So I am certainly not arguing any of this to 'support my subjectivism'. It's amazing that you can cram that many errors into such a short post. And you actually think that your post ridiculed me instead of yourself?hrun0815
May 16, 2016
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I:
“If the Mesoamerican morals were so wrong, and those of other cultures throughout history that we disagree with, how do you know that your morals are the correct ones? Is it not more likely that humans in 500 years will look back at your morals (eg. homosexuality and SSM are immoral) and think that those were absurd and nihilistic?”
Not sure I understand which of the following is the point. 1) If we assume that humans subjectively define morality, then (surprise!) that definition might change over time? 2) Maybe the Mesoamerican morals were not so wrong?Phinehas
May 16, 2016
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KF: "Inquisitor, you did so when you pushed principled objection to homosexualisation of marriage into the same boat with aggressive war to capture victims and human sacrifice of captives — which is the patent, directly implied context. This is no strawman, it is a revelation of the attitude warned against by George in the lecture in the OP. It also is entirely consistent with consistent attempts to delegitimise principled dissent from the agenda being pushed through persistent false accusations of bigotry — which directly entails insinuations that our only possible motivation is hate. Which — in an era of politically correct lawfare — is highly loaded. You have used up your chance, you have shown your colours, and so now kindly leave this thread. KF" So, I guess that means that you cannot provide a rational answer to my simple but serious question. That is your right. But I am sure that others reading this have noted your refusal. Also, I have noticed that nobody else has read into my comments what you have.inquisitor
May 16, 2016
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HR:
Aeeeehhhh, Bill Gates lost $50k? When was the last time you looked at the definition of the word harm? Harm, noun: physical injury, especially that which is deliberately inflicted. material damage. If somebody takes away money from my bank account there is material damage to me. This is not dependent on whether or not Brent thinks the amount of money that disappeared passes some threshold.
Ahahahaha! Here we have a subjectivist arguing vehemently for an objective definition of "harm" in order to support their subjectivism. The irony is both hilarious and delicious at the same time.Phinehas
May 16, 2016
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Inquisitor, you did so when you pushed principled objection to homosexualisation of marriage into the same boat with aggressive war to capture victims and human sacrifice of captives -- which is the patent, directly implied context. This is no strawman, it is a revelation of the attitude warned against by George in the lecture in the OP. It also is entirely consistent with consistent attempts to delegitimise principled dissent from the agenda being pushed through persistent false accusations of bigotry -- which directly entails insinuations that our only possible motivation is hate. Which -- in an era of politically correct lawfare -- is highly loaded. You have used up your chance, you have shown your colours, and so now kindly leave this thread. KFkairosfocus
May 16, 2016
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HR, do you understand where extreme nominalism leads? As in, who defines what abracadabra magical power words mean? Thence, the nihilism of might and manipulation make 'right,' 'truth,' 'value,' 'meaning,' 'guilt,' 'innocence,' 'justice' etc? Do you really want our civilisation to become such a world? Do you understand what such nihilism implies? KFkairosfocus
May 16, 2016
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KF: "Inquisitor, As I responded to at 870, you have left a monstrous insinuation that principled objection to homosexualisation of marriage is comparable to the sort of barbarous aggressive war and murderous sacrifice of the captured that happened in the Aztec kingdom." I have made no such insinuation. Lets rewind the tape to the question that you continue to refuse to answer, rather engaging in turnabout, erecting a strawman, soaking it in oil of red herring and setting it alight. "“If the Mesoamerican morals were so wrong, and those of other cultures throughout history that we disagree with, how do you know that your morals are the correct ones? Is it not more likely that humans in 500 years will look back at your morals (eg. homosexuality and SSM are immoral) and think that those were absurd and nihilistic?”" My point was that we can look back on most cultures throughout history and find things that they found morally acceptable and we would now consider morally unacceptable (see my bolding above where I made it inclusive with things other than child sacrifice). Why do you think that your current morals will not be looked back on with the same distain that we now view arranged marriages, female circumcision, jailing people for homosexuality and child sacrifices. "This is a reasonably civil forum for serious discussion, and you have crossed a very serous line. You need to walk it back, now. KF" What's to walk back? Should I apologize for you misreading/misinterpreting my comment? I would gladly do that if my comment was poorly worded, but it clearly was not. So, once more, are you willing to answer my very serious question, or just get back on your high horse and blame me for something that I never did?inquisitor
May 16, 2016
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Re #878:
But we are told that “gender identity” is fluid, it can change day by day, hour by hour, moment by moment, this standard would deprive those whose gender fluidity is not consistent their rights.
Yup. It still woudln't work for everybody. But I would reckon that it would work for more people than it does now. And it should alleviate the fears of StephenB, WJM, KF, and others about men sneaking into women's locker rooms under flimsy pretext to molest or rape them. And maybe if I had a better understanding of the problems and preferences of the gender-fluid we could find a solution for them as well.
Finally something we can agree on which begs a question, who made it a problem?
I have long given up to figure out 'who started it' with my kids. It leads you down to a long rabbit hole filled with angry accusations. Generally, I focus my attention on how to fix it (at least with them).hrun0815
May 16, 2016
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Inquisitor, you have something serious to resolve now. There will be no further warnings. You crossed a serious line and now need to show yourself civil. KFkairosfocus
May 16, 2016
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Vivid: "You are arguing against yourself here not me. What the courts are interpreting is “what do we mean by sex”? How do we determine what a persons sex is? You say, although I expect this answer to change pretty quickly, that it is self evident that biology determines what someone’s sex is. I guess if the courts disagree with you you will change your definition. " My definition of sex and the court decided definition do not have to be the same. Personally I think that they are making a stretch with the legal definition, but I agree with the outcome. My preference, and I suspect yours, would be for the government to either amend the act to clearly define what they mean by sex or amend it to add a clear definition of gender identity. I am not suggesting that we agree on the preferred outcome, only on the preferred process.inquisitor
May 16, 2016
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Inquisitor, As I responded to at 870, you have left a monstrous insinuation that principled objection to homosexualisation of marriage is comparable to the sort of barbarous aggressive war and murderous sacrifice of the captured that happened in the Aztec kingdom. You cannot reasonably walk away from that without resolving it. As thread owner, I ask you to face it, deal with it and come to some civil conclusion before moving ahead. This is a reasonably civil forum for serious discussion, and you have crossed a very serous line. You need to walk it back, now. KFkairosfocus
May 16, 2016
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Inquisitor "And the courts are well within their rights to interpret that act." You are arguing against yourself here not me. What the courts are interpreting is "what do we mean by sex"? How do we determine what a persons sex is? You say, although I expect this answer to change pretty quickly, that it is self evident that biology determines what someone's sex is. I guess if the courts disagree with you you will change your definition. Vividvividbleau
May 16, 2016
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Vivid: "But the 1964 Civil Rights Act applies to sex. If we determine what ones sex is by biology then the law does not apply and all this talk about discrimination as it applies to this law is moot." And the courts are well within their rights to interpret that act. Courts are asked to interpret laws all of the time. If they have interpreted it to mean that the legal definition of sex is extended to gender identity, then it does, from a legal perspective. You can certainly disagree with their interpretation, and fight to have that interpretation changed through either an amendment or repealing it. "As to gender identity this is not the same as a persons sex nor have I contended that it is. Here is a novel idea for a Government that is supposed to be for the people and by the people, our elected representatives should pass a new law!!!" If we required the government to pass a law for every possible interpretation of an existing law, the government would be even more disfunctional than it is now. And it is very disfunctional. There is absolutely nothing stopping governments from passing amendments to laws that they disagree with.inquisitor
May 16, 2016
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Hrun "I think that the most reasonable standard is ‘consistent self-identification’. " But we are told that "gender identity" is fluid, it can change day by day, hour by hour, moment by moment, this standard would deprive those whose gender fluidity is not consistent their rights. "And if you think that is too wishy-washy or ambiguous, you can, of course, as that this could be simply entered into the sex (or in an additional self-identified sex) category in a drivers license." But ones gender identity can change, they could walk into the DMV identifying with one gender and before they get out of the parking lot indentify with another. "However, that being said, I believe that this is simply a question searching for an actual problem". Finally something we can agree on which begs a question, who made it a problem? Vividvividbleau
May 16, 2016
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Inquisitor "I never said that their biological sex was not determined by their genitalia. That is self-evident. But biological sex, and gender identity do not always correspond." But the 1964 Civil Rights Act applies to sex. If we determine what ones sex is by biology then the law does not apply and all this talk about discrimination as it applies to this law is moot. As to gender identity this is not the same as a persons sex nor have I contended that it is. Here is a novel idea for a Government that is supposed to be for the people and by the people, our elected representatives should pass a new law!!! Vividvividbleau
May 16, 2016
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Re #875: Brent, you say that 'amount' us not the issue, and you say the definition is fine. So, indeed, part of the definition is 'made less valuable' but you discount this. I just want to spell out for you what you are promoting here. You are claiming that: X=X-50 or that 0=50. I am still not sure if you are being serious or if you are trying to troll me with some elaborate scheme. I ask again: "How would you respond then to #837 and #859?" PS: I am happy to discuss the other scenarios as well. Or, if you wish, I can agree arguendo that indeed nobody gets harmed in the examples you cite and explain to you my moral understanding of all three scenarios. However, I first need to understand if it is really your contention that x=x-50 or x=x-50*100000000. Or that exposure to asbestos causes no harm?hrun0815
May 16, 2016
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We agree that the amount, in general, isn't the issue. I say 'in general' because, yes, at a certain point it hurts even Bill Gates. I only used $50 so as to try to help lessen some potential outrage. Whatever. The definition of harm you cite is fine. In it, the only thing that you could like to try to hang your hat on is "made less valuable". I would argue that even in scenario #1 that since Bill's descendents never had a shortage and could get and do and give in every way they wanted without restraint until the world ended that they didn't lose any value. When prices rise the money in our bank account loses value also, but if the purpose of money is for obtaining other things, and one is so rich that, even though they lost some absolute value, they never had a shortage for any desire, they didn't really lose anything. At any rate, that still doesn't speak to either of the other two scenarios (#836). I think they all three are examples where no one was harmed.Brent
May 16, 2016
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Re #873:
No, you never showed that there was actual harm to BG.
How would you respond then to #837 and #859? EDIT: Actually, just to make sure that we are speaking about the same thing: What is the definition of the word 'harm' you are using? I am going by something along the lines of the ever-popular Merriam-Webster (physical or mental damage or injury : something that causes someone or something to be hurt, broken, made less valuable or successful, etc.).hrun0815
May 16, 2016
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hrun, No, you never showed that there was actual harm to BG. Zeroseven talked of depriving someone of their property, but of course in the scenario there was no such depriving. Again, you are simply reacting to this instance and demanding it be like most instances of stealing. Yes, most often stealing does harm the victim. This is a counter example. And even if you don't think the 1st scenario is, then you still haven't said anything about the other 2. Not only was BG not deprived of any of his wealth, but he gained wealth. The scenarios I've painted range from not harming to actually helping BG. You have to show how BG was harmed in the scenarios, not just say vociferously that he was.Brent
May 16, 2016
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Re #871:
HR, the answer is obvious, [...]
Yes, to me the answer is obvious. I was asking what the answer is for you: male or female?hrun0815
May 16, 2016
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HR, the answer is obvious, there is no good reason to wrench law and institutions to uphold blatant falsity under penalty, or to expose women and girls to a wholly unjustified risk. That our civilisation is even contemplating such an absurdity and is going on to try to push it into law under false colours of equality and rights, shows how irrational, absurd, and suicidally destructive it is rapidly becoming. Precisely as outlined in the OP. And of course this wedge issue is imposed far and wide reflecting the intent of intimidation and forced cognitive dissonance in the context of a programme of mass indoctrination. This too is not a mere coincidence. Such will not end well, and the juggernaut is patently rolling on faster and faster out of control, heading for the crash. KFkairosfocus
May 16, 2016
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I, I have already told you that morals are not merely matters of opinion. You have been directed tot he OP which discusses the roots of morals and are again directed thereto. The practices in question were patently wrong, being based on murder; deliberate shedding of innocent blood with no just cause or excuse. These practices were imposed through offensive warfare, and were an expression of the nihilist absurdity, might makes 'right.' Likewise, the repeated attempt embedded in your line of argument, to suggest that morals are merely matters of opinion. I suggest that you would find this on the objectivity of morals helpful, also this in reply to 07 on self evident moral truths. As to the notion that the twisting of marriage contrary to the order manifest in nature through manipulation of law and institutions of state and law, is to become so triumphant that principled objection to it is to be regarded as of the same order as the barbarities of idolatrous human sacrifice that ripped the beating hearts of living victims out of their chests to present to the sun imagined a god, that is itself a monstrous outrage by implication of the boat you would push us into. It inadvertently lets a very big cat out of the bag. Indeed, it underscores the point of the concerns and exposes the nihilistic mentality of the agenda we now confront. KF F/N May 18: This refers to I at 867 above:
If the Mesoamerican morals were so wrong, and those of other cultures throughout history that we disagree with, how do you know that your morals are the correct ones? Is it not more likely that humans in 500 years will look back at your morals (eg. homosexuality and SSM are immoral) and think that those were absurd and nihilistic?”
kairosfocus
May 16, 2016
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Re #865: KF, I asked a similar question of WJM in the other thread, but I am curious about your answer: If transgender are "people presenting themselves contrary to blatant fact and setting out to impose on esp women in vulnerable situations" then which bathroom and locker room do you believe these people (http://www.oddee.com/item_98038.aspx) should use? I really, really, really would love a simple answer: maybe the word "male" or "female" would be enough? However, my guess is that somehow this simple question is gonna be yet another example of me playing turn-about politics by agit-prop neo Marxist manipulation leading the juggernaut down a slippery slope of ruination. It's a simple question though.hrun0815
May 16, 2016
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WJM: "As has been shown, there is no rational basis for your subjectivist views." No, it has been asserted.inquisitor
May 16, 2016
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KF: "I, that is the logic of what you have argued, whatever your formal belief. KF" KF, that does not appear to answer my question at 821, repeated at 932. For convenience, I will post it again below: "If the Mesoamerican morals were so wrong, and those of other cultures throughout history that we disagree with, how do you know that your morals are the correct ones? Is it not more likely that humans in 500 years will look back at your morals (eg. homosexuality and SSM are immoral) and think that those were absurd and nihilistic?"inquisitor
May 16, 2016
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Relevant to this insanity, now we have a goat-man! http://www.independent.co.uk/news/weird-news/thomas-thwaites-man-who-lived-as-a-goat-explains-why-and-says-it-was-a-special-kind-of-time-a6892871.htmlEugen
May 16, 2016
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