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Society, Rights, and Self-Identification

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Does a man have the right to identify himself as a woman and enter their locker rooms and bathrooms, demanding equal rights for their self-identification?  Does a person have the right to identify herself as a native American and, when filling out forms for employment or college, indicate her ethnicity as such, even though she is not?   Should the force of law support such self-identifications which contradict the physical facts and insist that society accommodate any such self-identifications?

Where is the line between socially protected self-identification in conflict with physical facts and delusion?  Can physically unrelated people identify themselves as family and represent themselves as such on legal forms?  Can an adult self-identify as a child and thus obligate his parents to take care of him his entire life?

There are physical realities that exist which are not transformed by how one chooses to conceptualize themselves or others and which are not changed by altering clothes or body parts. Men are not women, and women are not men, no matter how much anyone believes that one can become the other.  Even if the whole world calls a woman a man, it is not so.  That’s just the physical reality.  No amount of self or public identification as such makes Elizabeth Warren a Native American or Shaun King black or Bruce Jenner a woman.

A person can dress up, obtain surgeries and call themselves whatever they like; that does not obligate the rest of society to indulge their particular conceptualization of themselves.  I don’t have a problem with people doing any of that to themselves and for their own personal reasons, but surely the rest of us should not be forced by law or even compelled by PC obligation to indulge their self-conceptualization.

Do people have the right to self-identify in contradiction to the physical facts and expect the force of law to make society accept and conform to their concept of themselves?  If I refuse to indulge your particular conceptualization of yourself, or as a business refuse to indulge, am I being a “hater”? Am I being “intolerant”?  Is it my job to protect the feelings and promote a sense of “equality” and “enfranchisement” for those that self-identify in conflict with physical reality?

Further, won’t the social and legal demand to ignore physical realities in favor of protecting the feelings of such groups, and in fact make it a crime to state those physical realities or act in accordance with them, most certainly cause problematic, even dire unintended consequences in the future? A population trained to ignore reality in favor of sentimental, feel-good, virtue signalling memes can be manipulated to do virtually anything given the right narrative-messaging.

Comments
EDTA -- "...the range of alternatives actually explored by people was a lot more limited 100 years ago. Out-of-wedlock birth rates and STD transmission rates bear that out." Do they? Even in my life, I remember high school girls going "to live with their aunts". In the mid 70s I had an abortion. It is not something that I am proud of, but I refuse to listen to patronizing, misogynist idiots like KF about my decision. I now have three children that may not have been possible without my earlier decision. EDTA -- "It is difficult to measure satisfaction or happiness. I draw my conclusions from divorce rates, statistics on duration of relationships..." I agree, divorce rates are terrible. I wish that couples would take more time thinking about it before they took the plunge. But I got married at 22, on an impulse, and we love each other as much, 30+ years on, as we did then. Each couple is unique. Why should I attempt to deny a same sex couple the happiness that we have had simply because the odds against them are higher?ziggy lorenc
May 11, 2016
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ZL @ 101, - From the standpoints of technology, total prosperity, and our military capabilities, the Western world is definitely in good shape. But governments and corporations have quite a bit of power and are gaining more rapidly. The gap between rich and poor is widening rapidly. The US is as politically polarized as it has been in my lifetime. I have many concerns in this area, obviously. - Regarding the pace of cultural change: At least with regard to relationship formation (marriage, dating, etc.), it seems that change has accelerated since the 1960's (not surprisingly). You would be correct to point out that although anything from mere chatting to sex has always been *possible* on two people's meeting, the range of alternatives actually explored by people was a lot more limited 100 years ago. Out-of-wedlock birth rates and STD transmission rates bear that out. Antibiotics and birth control pills facilitated the major shift in morals. - It is difficult to measure satisfaction or happiness. I draw my conclusions from divorce rates, statistics on duration of relationships (breaking up is stressful and impacts one's health), impact of divorce and singlehood on longevity, studies done on happiness in various types of relationships, among other things.EDTA
May 11, 2016
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EDTA: All other things being equal, I’d rather see people satisfied with life. But the path we are going down is leading people into visibly less satisfying lives featuring fewer and less satisfying relationships, while promising them more mere animal pleasure. Rail away about the downfall of society, but it's quite another thing to advocate using the force of law in violation of the Fourteenth Amendment's equal protection and due process clauses. http://cdn.campaignbrief.com/wa/assets_c/2014/06/Retravision_EndIsNigh_1993_BLOG-thumb-300x252-153559.jpgZachriel
May 11, 2016
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EDTA -- "And those institutions cannot be successfully argued with at this point." The fact that you are not successful doesn't mean that they can't be argued with. EDTA -- "I take it as a given that Western civ is in decline." A given that is not supported by the evidence. EDTA -- "That’s the chance one takes when hosting rapid social change: it is necessarily unpredictable and probably uncontrollable." But you make it sound like the changes we are going through now are rapid compared to the changes in the past. They are not. EDTA -- "But the path we are going down is leading people into visibly less satisfying lives featuring fewer and less satisfying relationships, while promising them more mere animal pleasure" How do you judge a satisfying relationship? How do you measure it? How do you know that the realationship a same sex couple has is not as satisfying as that of an opposite sex couple? This being said, I would like to commend you on presenting your case honestly and openly, without asserting, as others have, that civilization is heading towards a cliff, with a broken back as the only outcome, if we don't mend our ways. That type of over the top hyperbole is just childish.ziggy lorenc
May 10, 2016
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Zachriel, At UD, I do get a small say in the debate. What I meant was that in US society as a whole, our most influential institutions (which disagree with my position) refuse to entertain the possibility that anyone is being hurt by the existence and increasing prevalence of the sexually non-traditional. And those institutions cannot be successfully argued with at this point. I will however accept the offer to explain myself, if for no other reason than any lengthy replies of mine eventually (after some editing) make it onto my blog. Of course the question, "How are you harmed by the existence of transgender persons?" is a distraction. It is not a question about me alone, but a question about society as a whole (Western civilization, US culture). The ploy of redirecting the question into a harder-to-answer form is legendary in this topic. Nor should it just be about the transgender. They are a willing and welcome part of a much larger picture which includes the whole sexually non-traditional segment of our society. So, the question should really be "What is the impact on Western civilization/US society as a whole of the existence (and rapid coming to power) of the sexually non-traditional members of our culture(s)?" There's a question worth asking. I take it as a given that Western civ is in decline. The things that once set it apart are no longer valued, but are being discarded wholesale. Suffice it to say that civilizations die by suicide, and ours has the earmarks. When it dies, the things liberals like about our current direction (fewer moral restrictions of all kinds--not just re sexuality, social democratic ideals like wealth redistribution, health insurance for more, concern for the environment, etc.) will likely disappear with it. That's the chance one takes when hosting rapid social change: it is necessarily unpredictable and probably uncontrollable. Stability (which *can* imply being stuck with some bad things) does at least imply a type of strength, in that you can at a minimum propagate society forward another generation at the status quo. It won't be a perfect status quo, but it's not uncontrolled change. So what effect do the sexually non-traditional have in such a situation as ours? Are they a force for continuity and stability, making another generation reasonably similar to the one before them? Or have they forsaken some fundamental societal responsibilities directly impacting continuity in the name of following their biology or their feelings? And they attack traditional institutions and people, creating social drag. For example: misogyny. See here. I don't take this position because of fear or because I want to see anyone repressed or unhappy. All other things being equal, I'd rather see people satisfied with life. But the path we are going down is leading people into visibly less satisfying lives featuring fewer and less satisfying relationships, while promising them more mere animal pleasure. I actually care more than those who would let people slouch into whatever their instincts/emotions drive them to at the moment. The dictum "if it feels good, do it" never lead anyone to a truly satisfying life by any substantive measure. People are being cheated, and our society cannot have a substantive debate about it. I know. People will say, "Why can't you let people find their own happiness?" I do. How have I stopped a single person from being sexually non-traditional? I haven't. (There's that form of question again, turned around, and intentionally made personal. [grin]) There you have it. I believe all of this has been articulated in other forms by the "regulars" here, so there shouldn't be any surprises in what I've said. But if you wish to help me hone my arguments, feel free.EDTA
May 10, 2016
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EDTA: I’m sure only one side in this discussion gets the privilege of defining when anyone else is being hurt. Not at all. Feel free to explain how you are harmed by the existence of transgender persons.Zachriel
May 10, 2016
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ZL, the matter is a philosophical one amenable to comparative difficulties analysis, it is not just tastes, preferences and subjective opinion that can be tagged and dismissed. I suggest you look at the 101 level summary of such an approach here on in context. I suggest in a nutshell, that the problem of the one and the many with linked issues is decisive across the broad live options: naturalism, pan-/panen- theism, ethical theism. Naturalism due to its embedded evolutionary materialism is self-falsifying and cannot ground moral governance. Pan-/panen- theism cannot resolve unity and diversity leading to undermining the significance of the responsibly free morally governed individual. Ethical theism is able to bridge this crucial divide, one form of the upper/lower storey analysis Schaeffer discussed at semipopular level decades ago and which I have used in current threads such as here: https://uncommondescent.com/ethics/science-worldview-issues-and-society/the-perils-of-prolonged-march-of-folly-triggered-crisis/ . So, no it is not mere opinion. KF PS: Have you pondered the self-referential import of:
The only time when it [having opinions] ceases to be healthy is when we deceive ourselves into a firm belief that we are right
The very form of this implies that you firmly hold yourself to be right in dismissing "a firm belief that we are right." So, have you merely deceived yourself? Or is it that you imagine yourself well warranted but those who differ with your own scheme -- popular in fashionable, relativism influenced circles -- cannot have good warrant so they must be deceived? And of course, they are often bigoted fundies who are ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked. I suggest, you need to think again. The discussion of William G Perry's flawed thought on truth that is now too often embedded in educational curricula and in institutional culture, here on, will help.kairosfocus
May 10, 2016
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KF -- "I have come to firmly hold ethical theism because it is the only satisfying worldview that sets a framework for responsible, rational freedom in a coherent world." The words that you have left out here, and leave out in almost all of your comments is: IN MY OPINION We all think that our opinions are right. That is just human nature and, in my opinion, a healthy thing. The only time when it ceases to be healthy is when we deceive ourselves into a firm belief that we are right. This is the category that you fall into. Your comments clearly show that you have long since abandoned the possibility that you may be wrong. In so doing, you have lost the enjoyment that can be obtained by debating someone who disagrees with you and replaced it with anger at the thought that someone might have the audacity to disagree. Sadly revealing.ziggy lorenc
May 9, 2016
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Z @ 80:
Allowing people freedom when they aren’t hurting anyone else is quite different than allowing assaults against people for their differences.
I'm sure only one side in this discussion gets the privilege of defining when anyone else is being hurt. And I never mentioned assaulting anyone, nor do I condone assaulting anyone. I was just suggesting that the other side might want to be consistent in how they apply principles. Silly me.EDTA
May 9, 2016
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WJM, thanks, and indeed I remember, including when I ran across your name on a web search and when you came back to UD. I was glad when you got posting privileges. ZL, I suggest you take a read here on to understand just how seriously and how long I have thought on the sins of Christendom. (It will probably help you to know that I am descended from slaves, from the indentured and from marginalised people of Britain and Ireland [onwards it seems Belgium].) I have come to firmly hold ethical theism because it is the only satisfying worldview that sets a framework for responsible, rational freedom in a coherent world. I also have come to accept the Judaeo Christian tradition within that worldview, on separate grounds. Both of these point to how dangerous freedom is, and how weighty responsibility is. But without responsible rational freedom virtue is impossible, starting with love. Likewise, what evil and good are is pivotal. Evil being the privation, frustration, twisting -- that is, perversion -- of what is good out of its proper purpose, nature, end. Such are hard words and likely harder concepts, but without them we rapidly fall into a thicket of incoherence. Likewise, what a right is is closely tied to the moral government we are under and our intrinsic value. It is in that light that we can come to understand the dangers, the matches our civilisation is lightly playing with. Playing with without any depth of understanding. And is now walking a watershed razorback. not appreciating the dual slippery slopes of mutual polarisation and ruin that face us. Frankly, I am pessimistic about our prospects in coming years and decades. It seems that only the horrific pain of a back-breaking fall will wake us up. As happened 1942 - 45 with Germany. (Which was the context of my reference that seems to have triggered you.) And with the vultures I see circling, given 1400 years of history of conflict with radical aggressive IslamISM (not all or even most muslims, but the geostrategically crucial part), I shudder. I look at the ungarrisoned continent, Africa, I think of Mackinder transferred to a new pivot, and my heart bleeds in pain for what I see coming. We are playing with fire. Some of it liable to be nuclear. As 1945 almost was for Germany . . . yes Berlin was original target to be Ground Zero. And if we cannot learn from the blood of 6 million Jews, 3 million of them Poles, 2 million other Poles, 25 million Russians, and altogether what 60 maybe 80 millions in WW II, we doom ourselves to even worse horrors. We MUST learn from history, lest we repeat its worst chapters. KF PS: ZL, please take time to read and ponder this warning from Plato, written in a broken Athens, which -- as I outlined a few days ago as part of context for what I am saying -- grasped for and lost Empire and then went down to utter ruin in Plato's youthful days:
Ath. . . .[The avant garde philosophers and poets, c. 360 BC] say that fire and water, and earth and air [i.e the classical "material" elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art . . . [such that] all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only [ --> that is, evolutionary materialism is ancient and would trace all things to blind chance and mechanical necessity] . . . . [Thus, they hold] that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.-
[ --> Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT, leading to an effectively arbitrary foundation only for morality, ethics and law: accident of personal preference, the ebbs and flows of power politics, accidents of history and and the shifting sands of manipulated community opinion driven by "winds and waves of doctrine and the cunning craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming . . . " cf a video on Plato's parable of the cave; from the perspective of pondering who set up the manipulative shadow-shows, why.]
These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might,
[ --> Evolutionary materialism -- having no IS that can properly ground OUGHT -- leads to the promotion of amorality on which the only basis for "OUGHT" is seen to be might (and manipulation: might in "spin") . . . ]
and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [ --> Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality "naturally" leads to continual contentions and power struggles influenced by that amorality at the hands of ruthless power hungry nihilistic agendas], these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is,to live in real dominion over others [ --> such amoral and/or nihilistic factions, if they gain power, "naturally" tend towards ruthless abuse and arbitrariness . . . they have not learned the habits nor accepted the principles of mutual respect, justice, fairness and keeping the civil peace of justice, so they will want to deceive, manipulate and crush -- as the consistent history of radical revolutions over the past 250 years so plainly shows again and again], and not in legal subjection to them.
kairosfocus
May 9, 2016
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Ziggy said:
And what truth are we referring to? The truth that homosexuality exists, has always existed, and will always exist? The truth that homosexuality is observed in nature?
The problem as I see it, Ziggy, is that you cannot even begin to comprehend the nature of KF's argument. You really cannot, because if you could you'd see the absurd, self-contradictory nature of your statement above. Let's pop in a different word:
And what truth are we referring to? The truth that homosexuality pedophilia exists, has always existed, and will always exist? The truth that homosexuality pedophilia is observed in nature?
Since you cannot really comprehend KF's argument, you latch onto certain words and phrases he uses (like "pervert", or "Nazi Germany"), etc, run them through the superficial associations defined and mandated by your sentiment and progressive viewpoint, and then issue forth responses to his terminology (but not his actual argument or the concepts addressed) that portray him in the worst possible way. I've seen many, many people do exactly this - take a sentimental objection to terminology KF uses instead of understanding those terms in context according the whole of his argument. Hell, to be honest, I've even done it. It took me a while to actually even try to understand some of KF's arguments because I, too, reacted to terminology according to my progressive, sentimental conditioning. But that's the very point of progressive conditioning; to get you to react to trigger terminology in a way that destroys any chance whatsoever of rational discourse. If KF says "perversion", then he's a bad guy. No further reading necessary. No need to even understand the full context of what he is saying. So, if you are going to rationally debate on these subjects, then provide some answers to the following questions: Is there any sexual act that is perverted? If so, how so? If not, why not? What is a "right", where do they come from, what gives a right its authority? Should everything that occurs in nature be an acceptable aspect of human nature? If not, why not? Where do we draw the line, and why? What are the determining factors that arbit whether or not a society is good, or better than other?William J Murray
May 9, 2016
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KF -- "And I know you expect that people who take opposed views will fall into various ugly stereotypes." You are projecting your approach to opposition on to me. You should know better than to do that. I disagree with Mr. Murray but I do not project ugly stereotypes on him, even though the reverse is not always true as Mr. Murray has clearly demonstrated in calling me a fascist. I must admit that it is difficult not to project an ugly stereotype on you as you fit into one of them with almost every comment you make to someone who disagrees with you. I try to refrain from doing so, but I admit that it is difficult when trying to interact with you. KF -- "A bleak view but a well warranted one in terms of the sadly usual course of history and the consequences of evolutionary materialism. It is far easier to wreck, break down or demolish than to build." I agree, as has been clearly demonstrated in society's efforts to afford equality and respect on everyone, including those of different gender, different cultures, different religions, those with no religion, those who are attracted to the same sex, etc. For some strange reason, you perceive this as "breaking down" civilization. I perceive it as building up civilization. KF -- "He is also right to point out just before that that — as consequences of evolutionary materialism (by contrast with popular secular humanist or fellow traveller progressivist views), the following would obtain:..." We have been over this at length. It was clearly demonstrated that Gray's assumptions were wrong, and therefore your assertion of self referentially incoherent is also wrong. The fact that you refuse to accept these correctives is very telling. KF -- "It should be clear how rational, responsible freedom and the grounds for rights have been undermined here." So you say. What freedoms have you lost?What freedoms have I lost? Be specific and avoid hypotheticals and anecdotes. KF -- "However, in the case of recently championed “rights” issues, failure to deal with the sort of self referential incoherence and amorality just pointed out has serious consequences for the quality of decisions we are likely to make under their influence." Since there is nothing self referentially incoherent, there is nothing to deal with. KF -- "When falsity is embedded in your yardstick, the contrary truth will seem wrong and even absurd." And what truth are we referring to? The truth that homosexuality exists, has always existed, and will always exist? The truth that homosexuality is observed in nature? The truth that the term marriage, and the institution itself, is not owned by any religion? The truth that government has always had a role in the institution of marriage? The truth that homosexuality does not equal pedophile? KF -- "Ideas have consequences,..." You will get no argument from me. But have you ever considered that your ideas might have negative consequences? No, I thought not. KF -- "... and our civilisation faces sobering concerns and issues as we go through a prolonged crisis." Whether or not we are undergoing a prolonged crises is certainly open for debate. It is certainly true that societies evolve. This has been shown to be true from the time of recorded history to the present day. But to claim that our current civilization is undergoing a prolonged crisis is not substantiuated. KF -- "Where, also, we need to face the even more challenging question of our own degree of complicity in the problem. Ranging from being swept up in a march of folly, to becoming an activist enabler, to involvement in astro-turfed pseudo-grassroots front groups, to the rarer involvement as a strategic decision maker shaping radical, destructive agendas." Responding to this hyperbole in any detail is not worth my time. KF -- "Yes, such thoughts are painful to face." So you claim. KF -- "But if we refuse to do so, we are headed for serious trouble in a march of folly as a civilisation." Again, an unsupported assertion. KF -- "Sorry if this term sounds hard,..." No, it just sounds like unsupported paranoia. I'm sorry if this term sounds hard.ziggy lorenc
May 9, 2016
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ZL, I know this thread deals with very painful, distressing and threatening issues and perspectives that are not commonly discussed. And I know you expect that people who take opposed views will fall into various ugly stereotypes. But, just perhaps, it is time to take a fresh and different look from a different vantage point. Now, we all like to think that we are making progress and that things and movements that seem good to us are in fact good. Sometimes, however that is simply not so and the long haul of history makes it plain that civilisations rise and fall. Ours is overdue for serious reformation or it is likely to fail badly; maybe it is actually beyond the point of no return. And it is likely utterly strange to you to hear that the ideas of rights, progress and advancement that are often championed may well have history of ideas roots that are deeply questionable (here, self-falsifyingly incoherent and inescapably amoral lab coat clad evolutionary materialistic scientism and/or fellow travellers and astro-turfed front groups and agendas, also the influences and strategies of cultural marxism [often discussed self-promotingly as "critical theory"]), and may reflect trends that point to threats that are generally not in the headlines or college classes. Unfortunately, we need to realise just how rapidly things can fall apart. Especially when many have become caught up in movements that boil down to the -- here comes a hard but necessary word: nihilistic -- premise that might and manipulation make 'right,' 'truth,' 'value' etc. For one instance, though the distinguished British political philosopher John Gray and I come from very different views, I agree with him on his semi-famous remark in his Straw Dogs, that:
[O]nly someone miraculously ignorant of history could believe that competition among ideas could result in the triumph of truth. Certainly ideas compete with one another but the winners are normally those with power and human folly on their side. Truth has no systematic evolutionary advantage over error.
A bleak view but a well warranted one in terms of the sadly usual course of history and the consequences of evolutionary materialism. It is far easier to wreck, break down or demolish than to build. He is also right to point out just before that that -- as consequences of evolutionary materialism (by contrast with popular secular humanist or fellow traveller progressivist views), the following would obtain:
Modern humanism is the faith that through science humankind can know the truth – and so be free. But if Darwin’s theory of natural selection is true this is impossible. The human mind serves evolutionary success, not truth. To think otherwise is to resurrect the pre-Darwinian error that humans are different from all other animals.
William Provine in a well known 1998 Darwin Day keynote at U Tenn gave further force to these consequences of the evolutionary materialistic view:
Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent . . . . The first 4 implications are so obvious to modern naturalistic evolutionists that I will spend little time defending them. Human free will, however, is another matter. Even evolutionists have trouble swallowing that implication. I will argue that humans are locally determined systems that make choices. They have, however, no free will
Provine goes on to try to make all this sound so progressive, we must move to a therapeutic view of crime and dealing with criminals etc. However, his remarks -- and those of Gray -- inadvertently (and self referentially) imply that we cannot be sufficiently responsibly free that we can choose to follow an argument based on insights on fact, logic and meaning, and a commitment to the truth, or decide freely and responsibly. So, we must turn this around: are Gray and Provine saying these things because of commitment to truth and responsible, free following of the facts and logic or because they are under the control of their particular genes and social- psychological programming, or random chance events? It should be clear how rational, responsible freedom and the grounds for rights have been undermined here. Leaving, only might and manipulation as means to advance movements that claim to be progressive or to champion rights and overthrow what we may see as outdated, bigoted, barbarous oppression of minorities or identity groups that until recently were viewed with dismissive contempt. However, in the case of recently championed "rights" issues, failure to deal with the sort of self referential incoherence and amorality just pointed out has serious consequences for the quality of decisions we are likely to make under their influence. When falsity is embedded in your yardstick, the contrary truth will seem wrong and even absurd. For truth is what accurately says of what is so that it is so, and of what is not so that it is not so. Therefore the actual relevant truth will cut across what we are using as a yardstick if that yardstick is based on falsity. (Which falsity is so, through self referential absurdity as was just seen by way of key illustrative cases.) This brings back to focus a cluster of steps of thought I have been highlighting in recent days:
1 –> inescapably, we are morally governed as individuals and as communities. 2 –> on pain of immediate, patent absurdities, core moral principles are evident to conscience guided reason to certainty and are binding. 3 –> systems of thought that reduce morality to subjectivity, relativism or to illusion end in implying grand delusion and utter unreliability of our intelligence and conscience. 4 –> likewise, for things that undermine the premise that we have responsible, rational freedom and quasi-infinite worth and dignity; aptly captured in the traditional Judaeo Christan premise that we are equally created in the image of the good God and just Lord of all worlds. 5 –> Right to life, to liberty, to conscience and responsible expression, to innocent reputation, to the fruit of our labour and more flow from this, as say the US DoI of 1776 epochally acknowledges. 6 –> That document sums up this view in terms of the laws of nature and of nature’s God. It has far deeper idea roots and a centuries deep history behind it. Its legacy of liberty speaks for itself. Let me clip its first two paragraphs, noting the right of reformation and if necessary revolution in the face of a long train of abuses and usurpations (where the ballot box provides a peaceful instrument of audit, replacement, reformation and revolution but is critically dependent on an informed, responsible public cf the Ac 27 case here . . . a sobering lesson on the perils of manipulated democracy):
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.–That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
7 –> In this context, a core basic right is a binding moral expectation to be respected in regards to key aspects of our nature. That is, it is the mirror image and dual of mutually binding obligations imposed by our nature and its inherent dignity. That is rights are inherently matters of moral law connected to our nature. 8 –> As a consequence, a rights claim is a claim to be in the right and to be owed duties of care by others of like morally freighted nature. 9 –> You cannot have a right to the wrong, you cannot demand that others enable and support you in the wrong, such is to poison other souls with the taint of compulsion to do and to support the wrong. Such is monstrous and wicked. 10 –> Likewise, there are no rights to twist key institutions crucial to human thriving as individuals, families and communities. For the blessings of the civil peace of justice and liberty under legitimate law are key requisites of human thriving. 11 –> This holds for demanding that marriage be perverted through lawfare and agit prop, and the linked demand that sexual perversion be acknowledged on equal terms with the manifest order of nature stamped into our genes, organs, biology of reproduction and social- psychological- relational requisites of sound child nurture.
Ideas have consequences, and our civilisation faces sobering concerns and issues as we go through a prolonged crisis. Walking a tightrope is not sustainable for a civilisation. I think it is highly advisable for us to turn back, addressing both the prevailing worldviews climate and the agendas being imposed on us through the seven mountain commanding heights of a community or civilisation. Where, also, we need to face the even more challenging question of our own degree of complicity in the problem. Ranging from being swept up in a march of folly, to becoming an activist enabler, to involvement in astro-turfed pseudo-grassroots front groups, to the rarer involvement as a strategic decision maker shaping radical, destructive agendas. Yes, such thoughts are painful to face. But if we refuse to do so, we are headed for serious trouble in a march of folly as a civilisation. Sorry if this term sounds hard, it comes from noted historian Barbara Tuchmann. I again suggest Ac 27 has a case study in miniature -- http://kairosfocus.blogspot.com/2013/01/acts-27-test-1-on-celebrating-new-year.html -- that speaks volumes. KFkairosfocus
May 9, 2016
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WJM It is interesting to observe that Ziggy has no substantive response to your post # 84 other than to proclaim it to be a rationalization and announce how offended he or she is. Boohoo Ziggy who cares that your offended. Has WJM and KF violated your safe space? Do you have any rebuttal other than playing the victim card? Vividvividbleau
May 8, 2016
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Mr. Murray -- " And no, it’s not insulting to those people directly affected by the holocaust, it honors their memory..." Forgive me if I call bullshit on this. I can obviously only speak for one person directly affected by the holocaust, my mother was a survivor, but I find KF's attempt to trivialize the holocaust by making absurd claims that tactics used by LGBT activists are analogous to those use by Hitler and his cronies, to be deeply offensive. Standing behind a friend (KF) is noble. But to try to justify his statement with a lame rationalization, to use KF's words, speaks volumes. I would demand an apology from him but I know that I would be wasting my breath. Some people are just incapable of admitting an error.ziggy lorenc
May 8, 2016
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WJM @ 74 And it's been going on for some time now. Remember in 2008 when they tried to bomb the Republican convention with molotov cocktails? One of their own, Brandon Darby, who now works for Breitbart in Texas, was one of those leftist agitators, until he came to realize just how far his own group would go to get their message out. He infiltrated a particular group as an FBI informant, and turned in the two perpetrators. The bombing was prevented, and the would-be perpetrators, arrested. But that wasn't the end for Darby; he was attacked by the left leaning media, and NPR called him a "rat." http://www.examiner.com/article/npr-informant-who-stopped-bombing-of-2008-gop-convention-a-rat PBS broadcast a documentary about the incident, which suggested that Darby actually led the plot to bomb the convention, then backed out and implicated the two young males who he led. A total fabrication, and it was broadcast on national TV. That's how far this goes. http://www.pbs.org/pov/betterthisworld/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hW9xtBTHO8 The left fabricated a narrative in order to destroy this man, because he repudiated their tactics, stood up and prevented lives from being lost. Here's the usual suspects; http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/informant-gives-brandon-darby-an-unnecessary-propaganda-magaphone http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/08/brandon-darby-anarchist-fbi-terrorism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_Darby Darby, Breitbart, et al - take on the violence of the Occupy Movement: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHcr_8QgdosCannuckianYankee
May 8, 2016
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ZL, c 1933 Hitler represented hope for the German people. In twelve years he moved Germany to first the best performing major economy in the depression era then getting its pride and land back then reducing Versailles to a dead letter then triumphant in an Olympics Games -- Berlin, 1936 -- then increasingly dominant and triumphant across Europe (by which time he was the most popular leader ever in Germany), then there was a rapid collapse to utter ruin from 1942 - 45 . . . with Stalingrad the horrendously bloody pivot fully comparable to the worst WW I battles. My point -- stated in almost these words -- is that c 1933 no one would have believed you if you were to show them a movie of Berlin in July 1945 (which I linked somewhere). That is how fast a devastating collapse of the most technologically and scientifically advanced single nation in the world was at the hands of beguiling and superficially successful but in the end utterly ruinous leadership. And yet, as I have been saying, the pointing trends were there, visible to Heinie in 1830 . . . a point that you sneeringly dismissed as bigotry when it was made. Likewise in the 1930's Churchill, having read and taken Mein Kampf seriously was trying to warn of the gathering storm but was derided and dismissed. When your rhetoric of turnabout accusation, setting up and lighting up toxically laced strawman caricatures and the like is set aside, it is quite clear that your real complaint is that I and others have been warning that there are very dangerous developments with our civilisation and that some of what is being celebrated in some quarters as progress is deeply involved in the warning signs that are all too visible if one is willing to look. KFkairosfocus
May 8, 2016
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Ziggy said:
Really? So, you agree with and support KF’s claim that the LGBT lawsuits and LGBT anti-discrimination laws are analogous to the divisive Nazi anti- semetic, anti-homosexual propoganda campaigns and laws that ultimately led to the murdering of millions of people.
Those and other laws and policies and propaganda, yes. Only now it isn't homosexuals and Jews who are the target of hateful propaganda and rhetoric (well, to be fair, Jews are coming under attack by the left again), but rather conservatives, tea partiers and others on the right side of the political spectrum. Similarly, Occupy Wall Street and BLM and other radical leftist groups that shut down political discourse they disagree with are analogous to the Nazi brownshirts. What we are seeing is a fascistic ideology imposed on us in a way that generates public unrest and so leads to increase government power and control, and foments hate at specific groups that oppose it and/or can be used as scapegoats for people's anger.
inferring that the approach used to extend rights to LGBT could lead to something like the holocaust is massively insulting to people directly affected by the holocaust.
You mean "implying". And no, it's not insulting to those people directly affected by the holocaust, it honors their memory by being ever wary of the tools and tactics of would-be fascist oppressors, and pointing it out when people shut down political discourse, inject invective at every opportunity to gin up emotions and social strife, and use shaming, intimidation and even violence to impose their agenda.William J Murray
May 8, 2016
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Mr. Murray -- "No, only an insensitive idiot (or agent provocateur) would interpret KF’s statement the way you did." Really? So, you agree with and support KF's claim that the LGBT lawsuits and LGBT anti-discrimination laws are analogous to the divisive Nazi anti- semetic, anti-homosexual propoganda campaigns and laws that ultimately led to the murdering of millions of people. Forgive me if I think that it is insensitive hyperbole taken to the extreme in an effort to make the issue orders of magnitude more serious than it actually is. It was stupendously insensitive for two reasons: 1) One of the groups targeted and murdered by Hittler were over 50,000 homosexuals. 2) inferring that the approach used to extend rights to LGBT could lead to something like the holocaust is massively insulting to people directly affected by the holocaust.ziggy lorenc
May 8, 2016
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Ziggy said:
Only an insensitive idiot would come out with a statement like this. The fact that you would defend it is worrisome.
No, only an insensitive idiot (or agent provocateur) would interpret KF's statement the way you did.William J Murray
May 8, 2016
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Ziggy asks:
How could you possibly infer that from his comment? This entire thread has been about LGBT issues. And then, out of the blue, KF comes out with this steaming turd:
By reading it in context. This thread is not only about supposed LGBT "issues", but about the impact current laws and policies are having on society and the apparently unforseen ramifications of those laws which you, apparently, refuse to address, such as the proliferation of lawsuits coming from an impossible to obejctively identify self-concept. He was responding to my post which, in context, is response to CY's post, which all in context is about historical fascist tactics of using apparatchik operatives, useful idiots and intimidating ground troops to force a narrative that is entirely divorced from reality into public acceptance, generating support for a more powerful and pervasive government. But, I realize that reasonable, charitable debate is not your purpose here, seeing as you have decided to out yourself by lying for your agenda in your accusation against KF:
You draw a parallel between LGBQ and the holocaust and I am the one being slanderous? I’m afraid that my irony meter just broke.
He did no such thing; he drew a parallel between the socio-political tactics of Nazis that gave rise to and supported the Nazi regime. If you're too dense to realize that, then I suppose there's no hope for you.William J Murray
May 8, 2016
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Z -- "Yeah, then they’ll let gay men in the men’s room. And you know how that will turn out!" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JmzuRXLzqKkziggy lorenc
May 8, 2016
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KF -- "ZL, your serial, slanderous stereotypical projections are now telling us more about you than about those you target." You draw a parallel between LGBQ and the holocaust and I am the one being slanderous? I'm afraid that my irony meter just broke. People can read your comment in the context of the thread and decide who is being slanderous.ziggy lorenc
May 8, 2016
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Mr. Murray -- "It would be absurd if that was the point KF was making. I believe he was making a comparison about the quick rise of fascist power and how it was achieved in Germany which followed the same pattern we are witnessing here with regards to the fracturing, polarization and internal strife deliberately generated in order to pave the way for the comfort and security of a totalitarian regime, enforced by their own version of social justice warriors and BLM activists, the Sturmabteilung, also called the Brownshirts." How could you possibly infer that from his comment? This entire thread has been about LGBT issues. And then, out of the blue, KF comes out with this steaming turd: “WJM, I fear we are just beginning the REAL slide. For comparison ponder Germany 1933 and 1945 — I doubt many would have believed what would happen in 12 years. KF Only an insensitive idiot would come out with a statement like this. The fact that you would defend it is worrisome. Over 100,000 homosexuals were rounded up and sent to concentration camps by Hitler. Forced to wear a pink triangle patch. Over half of them were executed. And now KF is drawing a parallel between fights for LGBQ rights and the lead up to the holocaust. That is as stupid as claiming that laws enacted against anti-semetism are a parallel to what led to the holocaust.ziggy lorenc
May 8, 2016
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EDTA: So if the gender identity issue is a case in point, then a fortiori, you have to let the rest of humanity do what it does instinctively, which is to ridicule and harass those who are different. Allowing people freedom when they aren't hurting anyone else is quite different than allowing assaults against people for their differences. ziggy lorenc: It starts with equal rights for women, then legalizing homosexuality, then same sex marriage, closely followed by gender neutral bathrooms and then, as inevitable as night follow day, the rounding up and murder of millions of Jews. Yeah, then they'll let gay men in the men's room. And you know how that will turn out!Zachriel
May 8, 2016
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CY, Gender used to be a grammatical term. Its meaning was conveniently extended into psychosexual identity which is now force fitted into extreme nominalism. The sex stamped into our chromosomes and expressed in not only organs of reproduction but in many other ways in our bodies is then discounted. Agendas are imposed, most notably the porn-perversion agenda. The demand is made, backed by intimidation and manipulation, to invert sound time tested social praxis and to stigmatise those who do not go with the agit prop agenda. All of this is part of the pattern of a march of folly and loss of soundness that points in very dangerous directions. KFkairosfocus
May 8, 2016
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ZL, you may find this paper I presented at a conference I helped organise on Islam and the Caribbean 13 years ago, will tell you a lot about just how utterly grotesquely far off base you have gone into the weeds of toxic slanderous projections. Notice my appendix on the modern history of Israel. As one with an honorary Jewish mother and brother [I come from a family that is like that -- I have many close relatives who are not blood relations], the suggestion of antisemitism you would project is grossly ill informed and even outright offensive. In fact the first political position I ever had was acquired literally at my mother's knee: anti-fascism in the Nazi form. In future before trying to skewer others with your favourite accusation -- bigot, you would be well advised to look in the mirror. KFkairosfocus
May 8, 2016
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Vivid, you are so right. KFkairosfocus
May 8, 2016
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WJM, I did not know a lot of that about Chicago, but it does not surprise me. On the Brownshirts, they grew out of the Freicorps, which were allied to the German Army and were involved in the onward fighting in the East from 1918 on. Multiple, intersecting wars in the E continued into the 1920's. The SA more or less allied with the emerging Nazis and were suppressed in the night of the long knives. In part, that was a decision by Hitler to go with the established Army though the SS was built up into a parallel military force and it is likely no accident that the Nazi air force also disposed of ground formations. The poarisation and rise of violent street struggles driven by ideology is a hallmark of societal subversion and a facet of 4th generation warfare. So is resort to lawfare, which twists the instruments of justice into ideological weapons. ZL and others of like ilk are so indoctrinated in evolutionary materialism and/or its fellow traveller movements that they cannot register the force of the warning in Plato's The Laws Bk X, "hence arise factions." Likewise extreme nominalism . . . growing in the same soil . . . leads them to imagine that one can trifle with something as foundational and as anchored in core human nature and requisites of sound child nurture as marriage, without destructive consequences. They need to at minimum watch George's lecture on social costs of such lawfare-tinged tampering, but they will be disinclined to ponder the consequences of a heady march of rage fuelled folly. A sadly often repeated story with predictable, destructive consequences. In the saying from my native land, fire deh pon mus mus tail, but him think cool breeze deh dere. KF PS: Ironically, this is exactly wrong: "These people deal in absolutes. They are right, and whatever means they must take to achieve their ends, they will do it. " Nope, they have been brought under radically relativist might makes right. In short, even the objector is partly caught up in the problem. Plato:
Ath. . . .[The avant garde philosophers and poets, c. 360 BC] say that fire and water, and earth and air [i.e the classical "material" elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art . . . [such that] all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only [ --> that is, evolutionary materialism is ancient and would trace all things to blind chance and mechanical necessity] . . . . [Thus, they hold] that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.-
[ --> Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT, leading to an effectively arbitrary foundation only for morality, ethics and law: accident of personal preference, the ebbs and flows of power politics, accidents of history and and the shifting sands of manipulated community opinion driven by "winds and waves of doctrine and the cunning craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming . . . " cf a video on Plato's parable of the cave; from the perspective of pondering who set up the manipulative shadow-shows, why.]
These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might,
[ --> Evolutionary materialism -- having no IS that can properly ground OUGHT -- leads to the promotion of amorality on which the only basis for "OUGHT" is seen to be might (and manipulation: might in "spin") . . . ]
and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [ --> Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality "naturally" leads to continual contentions and power struggles influenced by that amorality at the hands of ruthless power hungry nihilistic agendas], these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is,to live in real dominion over others [ --> such amoral and/or nihilistic factions, if they gain power, "naturally" tend towards ruthless abuse and arbitrariness . . . they have not learned the habits nor accepted the principles of mutual respect, justice, fairness and keeping the civil peace of justice, so they will want to deceive, manipulate and crush -- as the consistent history of radical revolutions over the past 250 years so plainly shows again and again], and not in legal subjection to them.
kairosfocus
May 8, 2016
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ZL, your serial, slanderous stereotypical projections are now telling us more about you than about those you target. Your favourite accusation is that we are bigots (thus by definition driven by hate and irrationality) and yet you refuse to do the simple duty of care to truth and fairness to be accurate and responsible in statements. I have taken time to lay out the geostrategic and worldview, culture/policy agenda rooted nature of my concerns, with historic exemplars and sober assessment of dangers ahead by significant scholars laying out a case on fact and logic. It is obvious that this has triggered you in ill-informed and toxic enabling behaviour now culminating in false accusations and refusal to entertain reflection on why a reasonable person could be concerned for trends tied to the homosexualisation of marriage under false colour of law. In short, you are playing the indoctrinated angry troll. I would say you have some walking back to do, but it is obvious that absent being impacted by painful consequences of our civilisation going over the cliff and breaking its back [it has not dawned on you that I have some directly relevant experience and have done linked analysis that leads me to say, our civilisation needs to turn back from ill advised agendas tracing to the red, double green de facto alliance before it is too late . . . ], your mind is closed and hostile. I suggest, you are making yourself into an exhibit of the problem. KFkairosfocus
May 8, 2016
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