Culture Revolution insurgency escalator

Kairosfocus, Yes, exactly. I suspect there's a reason why new totalitarian regimes want to erase history and all its lessons and comparisons. The press is then completely free to paint a glorious picture of how well everything is going--how obesity has plummeted and the restorative properties of physical activity in fresh air using a shovel as an exercise device, how rationing gasoline and other non-essentials are helping the fight against global warming and pollution, and so on. If people are dying, it's only because they were mostly the elderly (i.e. over 40), had already lived full and useful lives for the state, and are now helping with reducing excess human population. Yes, it's certainly vital under such a regime that a cooperative press with "flexible" journalists can express such gratitude. Also, the photographers now seem to be fascinated with taking dramatic pictures of happy workers cheerfully and selflessly contributing to the state according to their ability. And there are all the schoolchildren who spontaneously write poems and sing songs about their happy lives and wonderful leader on that happy plantation--truly a worker's paradise . . . in North Korea! -Q Querius

DS, there are two senses of ownership, one of which is control. To see the force of Q's point, please refresh your acquaintance with Orwell's Animal Farm and even 1984. One form of ultimate welfare state, is totalitarian control, and oh yes, there are "free" support services and "guaranteed" work for all in what will be portrayed as a paradise, but then the nomenklatura control you and everything too. Lawless ideological oligarchy. Do you know Cuban exiles, ask a few about life in Cuba since 1958 - 9. KF kairosfocus

Perhaps if words no longer have any meaning whatsoever. Like NDT, my mind is now blown. :-) daveS

Q & DS, the summary you gave can indeed reflect aspects of subjugation under those who control the system. KF kairosfocus

Querius,

everyone gets free healthcare, free housing, free food, guaranteed lifetime employment. People contribute what they are able and receive what they need.

Uh, that doesn't sound like "plantation slavery" to me... daveS

Kairosfocus @177, Imagine a system where everyone gets free healthcare, free housing, free food, guaranteed lifetime employment. People contribute what they are able and receive what they need. You might think I'm referring to a Marxist utopia, and I am, but I'm also referring to the earlier version named "plantation slavery." Isn't it brilliant political marketing in universities that convinces many people to advocate such a system today? -Q Querius

Mac:

I have noticed that you have a way of twisting logic and observations to fit the wider patters you have been pointing to.

An YOU have a way of lying, quote-mining, irrationality and being an insipid troll. ET

DS, while I have deepest respect for cats and dogs, I doubt they would embrace such a philosophy. KF kairosfocus

I'm starting to suspect our neighbor's cat is a Marxist. Should I be concerned? :-) daveS

F/N: Guillotines https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAhKMi6DexA KF kairosfocus

MMT, I cannot force you to see what you refuse to see, but I can note the fact of refusal and denial. That, too, is familiar. I refer you to the insurgency escalator and the McFaul pattern, played out in colour revolutions. As for media ambushes, they are a dime a dozen, the Sandmann case and why major media houses cannot face him in open court speak for themselves. The swarm tactics of today's red guards are nothing new either. The sequence of events outlined is readily documented, and a man has clearly died under highly questionable circumstances leading to a murder charge. As for the denial that these network-based radical groups are groups, the widespread sustained pattern of riots across a number of years speaks. The Frankfurt School, culture form marxist roots of critical X-theories are beyond reasonable dispute, as is dominance of key sectors of the academy, bleeding over into other institutions and society as a whole. The murderously destructive, enslaving, economically ruinous nature of Marxism, across several forms, is clear. And more. KF kairosfocus

Q

Could the the feeling also be mutual?

Perhaps. :) Mac McTavish

Could the the feeling also be mutual? -Q Querius

KF

All of this of course fits the wider patterns I have been pointing to.

I have noticed that you have a way of twisting logic and observations to fit the wider patters you have been pointing to. Mac McTavish

ET, okay. There is a thread on the hearings, as a lawfare battle, see https://uncommondescent.com/courts/judge-amy-coney-barrett-begins-us-supreme-court-nomination-hearings/ KF kairosfocus

DS, there is enough video and photography to document the main sequence and there is enough documentation to give significant background. It is details of connexions that are not in. Media ambushes have been going on for years, so that is not surprising. This one ended up in cornering and killing a man trying to de-escalate confrontations. KF kairosfocus

Ooops- meant to say stuff. Mind and fingers not in coordination. My apologies. ET

KF, We don't want anyone to be falsely accused, I'm sure. Therefore I suggest we refrain from painting suggestive pictures of what "credibly" may have happened until the facts are in. daveS

ET, language. KF kairosfocus

Biden and Harris are already lying on TV. Biden lied by saying President Trump drove the economy down, even though all the evidence says the economy was booming until covid-19 caused the shut down. Biden blames Trump for the unemployment number even though those number were better than the previous administration. Harris went off the rails against Barrett, making up [SNIP!] and saying it is as if were true and predetermined. This is the best the democrats have? Really? ET

DS, like a certain 17 YO may well have been recently and before him a certain 16 YO was it? The reality is this has the patterns of a media ambush for agit prop purposes. Those involved may not initially have had killing in mind (the lay in wait ambush in Portland is different), but once someone walks away from your designated agitator then is cornered and killed by an armed person presented as security, that becomes a very different story. If you got yourself tied up with a loose cannon, you were part of a professional organisation with standards and liabilities, so serious issues are immediately on the table. And that is on the least bad interpretation. Remember this guy used a red dot sight so he knew where he was going to hit pretty much, esp with a 9 mm. And he did so by first stopping de-escalation behaviour and then escalating a confrontation with someone retreating by walking backwards. This is the sort of swarm tactics pattern I have been pointing to. I hardly need to more than mention the effect of accusations such as nazi etc in creating out of control rage in such situations. KF kairosfocus

KF, I just don't want anyone to get "Richard Jewelled" if you catch my drift. daveS

DS, we can await confirmations but the antifa network and a pattern of involvement of the key journalists is pretty clear. The deeper pattern of media ambushes is known, the Sandmann case is only the most notorious. The initial confrontation and flanking cornering are manifest from photos of the incident and video. Who de-escalates and who escalates are clear. The background of the primary activist who first blocked and challenged the group of men leaving the rally is on clear record, with name. All of this of course fits the wider patterns I have been pointing to. KF kairosfocus

KF,

This is credibly a media ambush backed up by force that spun out of control, where the initiator is the shooter and confederates.

Well, yes, there are many credible hypotheses. The incident credibly could be solely the shooter's fault, and the station could hold no responsibility. Or both station and shooter could both be liable, with no involvement by Antifa. Etc., etc. Let us await developments. daveS

DS, I if anything hoped you had. As it is, let us await developments. Right now it looks to me like there is a loose network of antifa activists and "progressive" journalists including the photographer and the tv station producer. They may have had the shooter as an escort on whatever basis of agreement, the shooter is connected to antifa, itself a network. The person shouting at the victim and companions in the video is a known local activist, it is plausible they were trying to provoke a reaction that would create discrediting optics for the back the blue rally much as with Nick Sandmann and the March for Life. The man with mace, the soon to be victim, walks away, an act of de-escalation. Notice, he does not stand his ground. Only, to be cornered by the shooter, who tries to snatch the mace, which is held down, a non-threatening position. He slaps him aside then backs off; the shooter draws, the victim may have tried to say stop it, while backing away. The shooter stands his position of blocking, obviously levels a gun, so the victim sprays mace in a last ditch failed effort and is fatally shot. The two acts are close together in time, I suspect photos in the rapid shoot sequence are being suppressed by the photographer as there are gaps at strategic times, likely they are even more incriminating. This is credibly a media ambush backed up by force that spun out of control, where the initiator is the shooter and confederates. Self defence pleas break down under those circumstances. Mens rea is implicated and is COLLECTIVE, there is serious potential liability for individuals and organisations associated. The driver of the getaway car is liable for murder in the course of a bank robbery. (In Trinidad some years back, ten men were hanged together for one murder. Including, the driver.) That includes newspaper and TV station perhaps the owning networks. In context, security operatives in that area have serious licensing and training requirements that sharply increase for plain clothes and concealed carry. KF kairosfocus

KF, I don't know the answers to any of those questions. Do you have any leads? daveS

DS, but not as a security guard, which had several requirements not met. Which was it, on contract so station is seriously liable? on informal agreement? Not on contract so there was serious lying? And if the latter, was this a link to Antifa, a protector of "friendly" news? Or what? KF kairosfocus

DaveS, I just checked the news and yes, you're right. -Q Querius

I think he did in fact have a permit to carry a concealed weapon. daveS

I've read reports that no one remembers ever hiring the shooter for anything, that's he's not licensed as a security guard as required in Colorado, nor does he have a permit for concealed carry. Other than those details, the press had everything else right . . . LOL -Q Querius

F/N: Some circumstantial details of the incident in Denver, with photos in sequence. Such become sadly relevant as they indicate how dangerous the rising tensions and circumstances are. KF kairosfocus

DS, he has been charged for 1st degree murder already. It's pretty sure the officials have the vid. KF kairosfocus

ET, the problem I have there is the hi res photo has the cloud not reaching yet; with a spent shell already well up in the air and the gun in recoil. Why was a gun already in play? We don't have a good picture. In context, why would a man slap another with drawn gun?Was he trying to slap the gun aside, though that, too, is ill advised. If you are at arm's length or two from someone with a drawn or readily drawn gun and you have only mace, you are in serious trouble. Is there a video of the shooting itself that is in circulation? That photo likely came from a video. KF kairosfocus

ET, It isn't wise to mace someone with a gun, certainly. I don't know what the laws are in Colorado, but I'm going to bet the shooter will not be found justified in using lethal force. daveS

The report says the victim slapped the guard and then sprayed him. The guard responded by firing his weapon. Getting sprayed with bear spray disables you. Then you can be disarmed an killed with your own weapon. This has happened with a perp and rocks. A cop didn't want to shoot him but the perp hit the cop in the head with a rock, knocking him out. Then the perp took the cop's gun killing the cop and an elderly lady. Apologies but if you assault someone who is armed you are bound to get hurt or killed. ET

U/D, the shooter in Denver has been charged with 1st Degree Murder. He seems to have been a Pinkerton, security for the NBC affiliate reporter, and there is a pattern of connexions much as suggested. The video I have seen shows a confrontation with other individuals, with don't touch me, without noise from a second confrontation. A shot rings out and the victim topples backwards into the camera's frame of view from the RH side; thus, whatever was happening was peripheral to the main verbal clash, though that the victim had mace in hand does suggest confrontation. A white can of mace does not closely resemble a firearm and there was no pursuing or swarming crowd. The victim was a veteran and western-style hat-maker. Identities are now pretty much confirmed. Sad, and dangerous. KF kairosfocus

Q, a disturbing thought. KF kairosfocus

ET, What makes you think that Trump hatred is based on logic? It's simply a cathartic projection of all the ills of society, real and imagined, and personal frustration onto a single human scapegoat. I think hatred of this intensity is actually a form of insanity, hopefully temporary. There are some scary YouTube videos of people screaming and going crazy. It's truly sad to see people this fragile and this gullible. -Q Querius

Trump claims to be pro-life but was “cured” using two drugs developed through the use of fetal stem cells from an aborted fetus.

Wow. The left kills babies and still somehow wants to blame Trump for something. ET

Wow. Did Mac and cheese just say that the left is unpatriotic?

Ivanka, Jared, Bannon, McFarland, Miller and Priebus all used personal email accounts to conduct government business.

No one cares if it didn't involve State CLASSIFIED information. What is wrong with you? ET

I think it is safe to say that the victim is not affiliated with ANTIFA or BLM. He is wearing a stars-and-stripes mask, more commonly associated with the right. I can’t recall any ANTIFA or BLM protesters brandishing the flag, except to burn it. From the little information that is available, there was a peaceful “Patriots” protest with an equally peaceful BLM counter-protest. It appears that it was breaking up when this altercation occurred. The security guard was armed, as is common practice, and the victim had bear spray, mace or some other aerosol. Mac McTavish

MMT, you have been adequately answered on guavas vs jackfruit. As for the source of such medications, I am unaware. That would immediately raise serious moral issues especially as pluripotent so-called adult stem cells are a known alternative. That said I am well aware of how results from death camp experiments were used for decades until the research could be done over ethically. Meanwhile, this thread is about the insurrection escalator we are seeing. I note, on this incident just noted Denver Police say shooter . . . seems, a security guard . . . is unaffiliated, others are identifying names and occupations, are coming up with antifa associations and a suspicious tattoo. The apparent news channel involved and its reporter are seemingly viewed favourably by such. The vid still I have seen shows that the firearm discharge and the mace spray were close in time, the gun is in recoil and a spent shell is beginning to fly. We shall see for sure in coming days. That said, further matches have been put to the kindling. KF kairosfocus

Trump claims to be pro-life but was “cured” using two drugs developed through the use of fetal stem cells from an aborted fetus. Mac McTavish

KF

I am fairly confident that none of the six you point to was or is a Secretary of State dealing with that level of matters, so you are conflating guavas and jackfruit.

Ivanka, Jared, Bannon, McFarland, Miller and Priebus all used personal email accounts to conduct government business. Mac McTavish

DS, it does not look good. Apparently, the guard racked a round before the victim sprayed with an irritant. He fired, I do not know if it was a reaction, but why a gun was drawn in the first place is dubious as police were nearby.This media body-guard does not come across as competent, at minimum; likely, equivalent to unjustified police shooting. KF kairosfocus

Kairosfocus @128, Yes, you're right. And the implications are even more interesting. So, this planned California tax is on total worldwide net worth and legal residence. Coupled with California's unitary tax law, in which people and businesses must report ALL income from all sources worldwide, this makes California a wealth trap. For example, when I'd moved out-of-state for a few years, I had a car loan from an S&L in California and thus was required to pay prorated California state income tax as a non-resident. No, I'm not wealthy. Notice also that just like the original AMT (alternative minimum tax), the wealth tax is not indexed for inflation. Gosh, they musta forgot. I wonder who would be hit the hardest. SME business owners? Certainly, independently wealthy people will immediately establish permanent residence elsewhere. -Q Querius

MMT, you are playing at rhetoric games, hoping to deflect a serious security breach. I am fairly confident that none of the six you point to was or is a Secretary of State dealing with that level of matters, so you are conflating guavas and jackfruit. And if they were doing the same sort of highly classified diplomatic and security information breach, they too should face consequences. One reason I am pretty sure they are not comparable is that they would have predictably been hammered by law enforcement and/or intelligence agencies, with 24/7 coverage. Never mind, all of this is a game of successive tangents that avoids dealing with the insurgency escalator on the table. Telling in itself after 140+ comments. KF kairosfocus

ET, I'm just saying one should refrain from tweeting out classified information, whether it has actually happened or not. However, "a lot of people were saying" that this tweet was such an instance. daveS

What classified information was tweeted, daves? ET

Evidence Mac. Your word is meaningless. ET

ET

CLASSIFIED information should not be sent via private emails.

Or tweeted to the entire world, presumably. daveS

ET

CLASSIFIED information should not be sent via private emails. That is the issue.

Yet it is still being done. Mac McTavish

CLASSIFIED information should not be sent via private emails. That is the issue. ET

Querius, I don’t know the motivations behind the use of personal emails, but I suspect that it is to keep some communications out of future government access. I agree that it is inappropriate, unethical, and reckless, but is it indictable? As a subterfuge, it was ineffective as many of the emails were to people using government servers and presumably available under warrant. All I am suggesting is that it is best not to throw stones when you live in a glass house. The use of personal email to bypass government servers is apparently a common practice, even by the current administration. Mac McTavish

Mac McTavish,

Then you would have to indict at least six members of Trump’s cabinet, including family members.

Of course, because that's the law. But it certainly doesn't apply to Hillary Clinton and her government helpers because they said that they didn't actually know it was illegal. Right? But in that case, what if the members of Trump's cabinet and his family also claim that they didn't know? I guess you could argue that it's more believable that Hillary and her gang were clueless. How about this radical idea. What if people working for the government actually obeyed the law? What if ignorance of the law was no excuse for them just like it isn't for the rest of us? -Q Querius

KF

MMT, given developments in state of the art (and significantly different circumstances) since my distant cousin was US Secretary of State or earlier, the use of a personal server in one’s bathroom closet with dubious protection on a sustained basis was not only direct violation of statute [in breach of specific rules all officials were briefed on . . . go look it up] but sustained wilful breach of trust and undermining of the state.

Then you would have to indict at least six members of Trump’s cabinet, including family members. Mac McTavish

KF, That Denver incident definitely does _not_ look like legitimate self-defense. Have they released the shooter's name? I would assume there's going to be a press conference fairly soon? daveS

PS: Cicero is apt, given the erosion of lawfulness:

—Marcus [in de Legibus, introductory remarks,. C1 BC, being Cicero himself]: . . . the subject of our present discussion . . . comprehends the universal principles of equity and law. In such a discussion therefore on the great moral law of nature, the practice of the civil law can occupy but an insignificant and subordinate station. For according to our idea, we shall have to explain the true nature of moral justice, which is congenial and correspondent [36]with the true nature of man.

[--> Note, how justice and our built in nature as a morally governed class of creatures are highlighted; thus framing the natural law frame: recognising built-in law that we do not create nor can we repeal, which then frames a sound understanding of justice. Without such an anchor, law inevitably reduces to the sort of ruthless, nihilistic might- and- manipulation- make- "right,"- "truth,"- "knowledge,"- "law"- and- "justice"- etc power struggle and chaos Plato warned against in The Laws Bk X.]

We shall have to examine those principles of legislation by which all political states should be governed. And last of all, shall we have to speak of those laws and customs which are framed for the use and convenience of particular peoples, which regulate the civic and municipal affairs of the citizens, and which are known by the title of civil laws. Quintus [his real-life brother]. —You take a noble view of the subject, my brother, and go to the fountain–head of moral truth, in order to throw light on the whole science of jurisprudence: while those who confine their legal studies to the civil law too often grow less familiar with the arts of justice than with those of litigation. Marcus. —Your observation, my Quintus, is not quite correct. It is not so much the science of law that produces litigation, as the ignorance of it, (potius ignoratio juris litigiosa est quam scientia) . . . . With respect to the true principle of justice, many learned men have maintained that it springs from Law. I hardly know if their opinion be not correct, at least, according to their own definition; for “Law (say they) is the highest reason, implanted in nature, which prescribes those things which ought to be done, and forbids the contrary.” This, they think, is apparent from the converse of the proposition; because this same reason, when it [37]is confirmed and established in men’s minds, is the law of all their actions. They therefore conceive that the voice of conscience is a law, that moral prudence is a law, whose operation is to urge us to good actions, and restrain us from evil ones. They think, too, that the Greek name for law (NOMOS), which is derived from NEMO, to distribute, implies the very nature of the thing, that is, to give every man his due. [--> this implies a definition of justice as the due balance of rights, freedoms and responsibilities] For my part, I imagine that the moral essence of law is better expressed by its Latin name, (lex), which conveys the idea of selection or discrimination. According to the Greeks, therefore, the name of law implies an equitable distribution of goods: according to the Romans, an equitable discrimination between good and evil. The true definition of law should, however, include both these characteristics. And this being granted as an almost self–evident proposition, the origin of justice is to be sought in the divine law of eternal and immutable morality. This indeed is the true energy of nature, the very soul and essence of wisdom, the test of virtue and vice.

This is a part of the disintegration of the fabric of civilisation issue. kairosfocus

F/N: It seems there has been a development at a protest in Denver, where in a confrontation between a "patriot" protester and it seems bodyguards of a media crew, the former discharged bear spray the latter, firearms, leading to death. On tape I heard appropriate responses of bystanders to the killing of a person. However in other responses there were projections along the lines of assumed white supremacism and rejoicing at death. One's right to life is inherent and intentional killing can only be justified or excused under highly restricted circumstances such as self defence. (Yes, this is natural law reasoning.) Fifty or so years ago when the likes of Schaeffer and Koop pointed to a cascading erosion of respect for life, they were dismissed. Now, we face the reality in the streets. KF kairosfocus

Q, worse, it is premised on wealth, which is very different from income, and can force erosion of the base for investments. I strongly suspect delegitimisation of property and income from entrepreneurship, investment and capital assets at core of businesses through extensions of the labour theory of value. In short, marxist influence. (Since the marginal revolution in the 1870's, economics has shifted drastically in its understanding of value and prices etc. In short, there is a bidding war across competing uses and that is in the context that an economic exchange occurs when there is mutual gain: the seller values the income from the sale and the buyer values what he bought. E.g. because I suddenly need small hand tools [beyond earlier requisites], I have recently bought some shopworn bent nose pliers that were shop worn but restorable with some effort on my part involving use of bits of ceramic tile as scrapers/grinders.) In addition, the state is not primary, it is a matter of compact and agreement, fatal disaffection can lead to demand for restructuring. What is primary is our built-in moral government and responsible rational freedom under that. Once the state and its legal system evades that, it soon becomes lawless, manipulative and looting. Indeed, that readily explains the toleration of arson and looting across months. Let's note your article:

As proposed, AB 2088 would tax former Californians 90% of their in-state levy [0.4% of "wealth"] in the first year after they leave the state, 80% in the second year until phasing out completely over a decade, the bill’s author, Assemblymember Rob Bonta, D-Oakland, told Fox Business Network anchor Neil Cavuto on Aug. 14. Cavuto captured the likely mood of many wealthy Californians when he told Bonta, “Wait, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Are you saying that after they move, they’ve left, you are still taxing them? They’re no longer California residents, you can’t legally do that.” [--> notice, what is law, what is justice, what is lawfulness lurks. Absent built in, intelligible moral government through inherent laws of our responsible, rational, free constitution, the state as power holder with law-making power can rule as dominant factions please and impose. Here, if you run we still entangle you in our web. The implications of such precedents as extended further and further are astonishing] Bonta sees things differently. “For 10 years, the wealth was accumulated during their time in California … and that is what we’re proposing in our bill. We believe that we can do that,” Bonta said. [--> Income during that process was taxed at state and Federal levels, and capital gains taxes are due, so are transfer and death taxes.] A summary of the wealth tax bill points out that the number of California millionaires and billionaires has climbed even after the state adopted the nation’s highest individual income tax rate of 13.3%. (California lawmakers are now considering raising that top rate to 16.8%.) [--> Notice, ever growing demand for taxation. The disincentive effects are predictable, and now they go after those who try to get away. Inherently, the entrepreneurial, investor and capital holding classes will be small minorities. So, the issue is inherent right to honestly acquired property] “Sounds like they’d be prisoners of California,” Cavuto said of the plan to tax former California residents. “It hasn’t been just an exodus, it’s been a jailbreak.” [--> the natural law root and its bounds on civil law issue]

We really need to reform our view of law and its roots. Again:

We can readily identify at least seven inescapable first duties of reason. Inescapable, as they are so antecedent to reasoning that even the objector implicitly appeals to them; i.e. they are self-evident. Duties, to truth, to right reason, to prudence, to sound conscience, to neighbour, so also to fairness and justice etc. Such built in law is not invented by parliaments or courts, nor can these principles and duties be abolished by such. (Cf. Cicero in De Legibus, c. 50 BC.) Indeed, it is on this framework that we can set out to soundly understand and duly balance rights, freedoms and duties; which is justice. The legitimate main task of government, then, is to uphold and defend the civil peace of justice through sound community order reflecting the built in, intelligible law of our nature. Where, as my right implies your duty a true right is a binding moral claim to be respected in life, liberty, honestly aquired property, innocent reputation etc. To so justly claim a right, one must therefore demonstrably be in the right. Thus, too, we may compose sound civil law informed by that built-in law of our responsibly, rationally free morally governed nature; from such, we may identify what is unsound or false thus to be reformed or replaced even though enacted under the colour and solemn ceremonies of law. These duties, also, are a framework for understanding and articulating the corpus of built-in law of our morally governed nature, antecedent to civil laws and manifesting our roots in the Supreme Law-giver, the inherently good, utterly wise and just creator-God.

In that light, the folly of the atheistical veto on our self-understanding and policy agendas is becoming ever more apparent. KF kairosfocus

MMT, given developments in state of the art (and significantly different circumstances) since my distant cousin was US Secretary of State or earlier, the use of a personal server in one's bathroom closet with dubious protection on a sustained basis was not only direct violation of statute [in breach of specific rules all officials were briefed on . . . go look it up] but sustained wilful breach of trust and undermining of the state. But then this is now distractive as it is part of a chain of tangents. If you are serious on the matter, there are adequate discussions out there to establish the baseline I long since gave. KF kairosfocus

Kairosfocus @124, Yep. I couldn't believe my eyes when I read it. https://www.bizjournals.com/sanfrancisco/news/2020/08/18/will-affluent-residents-leaving-california-still-h.html -Q Querius

KF

MMT, the type of breach in question not only would have got someone broken in rank but gaoled for cause.

So, are you suggesting that all top government officials who use private email servers to discuss government business should be prosecuted? Mac McTavish

Q, a 10-year pursuit tax? That sounds like a Supreme Court suit waiting to happen. KF kairosfocus

Kairosfocus @122, Exactly! There seems to be an inexhaustible supply of blame and excuses, for which politicians are never held culpable by the legacy mass media. Politicians can blame "climate change" for almost any issue. For example, California's governor blames "climate change" for the massive fires that destroyed over 4 million acres this year (the most in history) rather than tragic and stupid mismanagement of California's forests. California fell from delivering among the top education results in the nation for K-12 down to somewhere around second last. Why? "Not enough funding" is the excuse. California spends only $20,000 per student per year while New York spends over $31,000 per student per year. In contrast, the top performing nation in the world in comprehensive education is Finland. They spend less than $9,000 per student per year. Imagine that. While I'm strongly in favor of conservation of nature and natural resources, and better education for children, California spends a large fraction on creating new and larger bureaucracies and on so-called "consultants." Very little ever reaches where it's actually needed. Speaking of "white man's burden (how I hate that term), a few days ago, the California legislature passed a major slavery reparations bill, again assuming that throwing money (someone else's money) at their perceived social guilt will solve anything. What about reparations for other races including Latinos, Asians, and native Americans for their historical mistreatment? Obviously, they will need massive new bureaucracies with insanely high salaries to make sure the descendants of the victims will receive maybe $20. Wow! The press seems absolutely delighted with the show, while California businesses and residents are fleeing in droves. There's a waiting list of people for moving vans in San Francisco, which have gone way up in price due to demand. But California politicians aren't worried. They are now planning to continue taxing people leaving California for 10 years after they leave the state. I truly hope that people will wake up to the scam. -Q Querius

Q, likely the worst cases globally are in China and other Asian countries now showing visible girl gaps. I don't buy the white genocide claim or the graffiti I saw on walls in my youth: birth control, plan to kill black people; but I am very aware of those who wish to see global population about 1/10 where it is now. What I think is that creating a new white man's indelible burden of guilt is very handy to cement the power of the new nomenklatura. Ideological domination and manipulation by setting up crooked yardsticks as standards of straight, upright, accurate. KF kairosfocus

MMT, the type of breach in question not only would have got someone broken in rank but gaoled for cause. It was not parallel to other cases regardless of how media tried to spin it. It is not even a question that any number of hostile agencies were in the server, leading to serious, sustained compromise of US foreign policy. Commercial software simply cannot deliver the required protection. KF kairosfocus

Kairosfocus @103, Yes, you're right. Bloodguilt based on our revised history requires the complete eradication of all Caucasians. The hysterical fanatics for cosmic justice who are leading the charge are exempt, of course. For now. And I probably missed a few more. -Q Querius

KF

more on recent release of emails by State Dept here, see 3:34 on. (No. it’s not just old stuff.) Notice, description of what was done, a huge sustained security breach.

I listened to it. I think we all agree that using a personal server is not a good idea, but she isn’t the first, or last, to do so. The question that has to be asked is whether it was a true security breach, or just a potential one. Again, I haven’t heard of any pending indictments, as much as Trump would like to have them before the election. As I mentioned before, instructing the AG to issue indictments at this time would backfire on Trump as many would perceive it as an abuse of power. Mac McTavish

KF, I knew there was going to be another release soon; are those already on that foia website? I hadn't heard anything about future indictments though. daveS

F/N, more on recent release of emails by State Dept here, see 3:34 on. (No. it's not just old stuff.) Notice, description of what was done, a huge sustained security breach. KF kairosfocus

KF,

...was indictable

Do we expect indictments to be forthcoming? daveS

“It’s a convenient way to blame “the left” for the actions of the WW* as well. *WW = Wolverine Watchmen of course” https://www.redstate.com/bonchie/2020/10/10/whitmer-kidnapping-plotter-was-blm-supporter-didnt-care-about-trump/ Vivid vividbleau

MMT, go look. A sign that something was wrong with the process is the walkaway. Notice the impact of Ms Powell. KF kairosfocus

DS, there are 33 k emails in process of release, and the mismanagement on a server in was it a bathroom closet, was indictable. KF kairosfocus

Those emails have been available to the public for years, haven't they? Surely if they contain anything incriminating, it would have been found already. daveS

KF@109, short of reading through 35575 emails, do you have any that are indictable? I certainly am not going to go through all of them. Mac McTavish

KF

MMT, a decent man who pled guilty to protect his son and newly born grandchild.

Do you have proof of this? Mac McTavish

Emails. . . . kairosfocus

DS, if I am wrong, things are much worse than I fear they are. I am reminded of a saying in my homeland: fire deh 'pon mus mus tail, but 'im think seh a cool breeze. KF kairosfocus

MMT, a decent man who pled guilty to protect his son and newly born grandchild. Do you understand what that sort of extortion does to men of honour? It seems, you haven't a clue the fire you are playing with. KF kairosfocus

KF,

DS, in a few weeks, we will see. I simply note that the 56% wellness index report is a sign that things may not go in accord with the dominant narrative.

Have you considered betting any money using something like betfair or predictit.org? You would do quite well if Trump wins. Trump is 38 cents per share at the moment on predicitit. If you win, you are paid back $1 per share, minus 10% of your profit. daveS

ET

There is plenty of evidence to indict.

Then why haven’t they? Let’s assume, for the sake of argument, that they are guilty. Trump’s own behavior makes it almost impossible for them to be indicted. When the President accuses specific people of specific crimes before charges have been laid, any action by Justice or the AG will be seen as Presidential interference in the justice system. Mac McTavish

KF

Meanwhile, a decent General faces financial exhaustion and railroading even when the government has walked away from a hopelessly tainted prosecution. Investigations are in train, but seem to require an unprecedented degree of exhaustiveness.

A decent man who admitted his guilt, twice. Mac McTavish

Q, you left out, direct bloodguilt for 63+ million of living posterity in the womb, with global bad example responsibility for 800+ millions. That central holocaust is the driving force in the situation. In the case of Mr Olbermann, his targetting of Mrs Barrett is a dead giveaway as to why he is so obviously demonically out of control, in a rage. How can a nation atone for holocaust level massive guilt of innocent blood? The answer to that can only be spiritual, redemptive. Which, they are so desperate to lock out. KF kairosfocus

DS, in a few weeks, we will see. I simply note that the 56% wellness index report is a sign that things may not go in accord with the dominant narrative. KF kairosfocus

Personally, I see this once again as our nation on trial. What do we have on the public stage? - Academic institutions actively suppressing freedom of thought and speech in the name of "fairness" and "safety" - Discrimination and apartheid in the name of eradicating racism - Blatant crimes and failures ignored (swallowing a camel) while inaudible "dog whistle" statements are given the widest possible circulation (straining at a gnat) - Blanket rationalization of every government failure on "climate change" - Judicial opinions that invent the law on a case-by-case basis by "activist" judges, who also decide what unalienable rights are bestowed on which individuals - Bureaucratic petty tyrants that focus on destroying people and institutions considered political obstacles while delaying even the simplest actions for years with a list of plausible excuses and misunderstandings - Unsupported assertions by glitterati on the public stage taken as irrefutable proof, saving the public from the confusing and painful task of making up their own minds. - Loyalty and unquestioned obedience as the highest quality. - Unrelenting distortions, accusations, setups, cover ups, blatant corruption, favoritism, and identity solely based on race, religion, creed, and sex. - Encouraging, funding, organizing, publicizing, and legal protection for rioting, looting, screaming, assaulting, and sabotaging . . . but only against current political obstacles. Welcome to hell. -Q Querius

MMT, did you notice what you left off, arms smuggling to parties destabilising a neighbouring state. How did such an operation ever get through? Next, there is an older name for the deep state, the establishment. Where Mr Olbermann's remarks implying a nomenklatura veto underscore the matter. And voices of that establishment have literally taken out ads.So, that there is an entrenched establishment further entrenching its status as nomenklatura; it seems heavier guns than expected, so digging in deeper. Big Bertha is speaking, 42 cm shells are screaming down and shaking the world. Meanwhile, a decent General faces financial exhaustion and railroading even when the government has walked away from a hopelessly tainted prosecution. Investigations are in train, but seem to require an unprecedented degree of exhaustiveness. It seems, the 33k emails are in hand and footdraging on releasing the setup on the Russiagate witch-hunt . . . yes, a panic driven by hostility to the other pivoting on deceiving courts to authorise spying using patently fraudulent stuff of the level of the Czarist Protocols . . . is speaking. All of these feed into the 4g civil war and rising insurgency escalator that we can see if we are willing. Speaking of, who is seeing to the singing off the same hymn sheet by dominant media and the protection of riot, looting, arson, mayhem? The prosecution of those trying to defend themselves from the threat of riotous mobs? And more. For me, I saw it before 40 years ago, and duly note that many are still in denial over what happened. Indeed, astonishingly, the apology by Russia ten years later -- of course, what Russia at the time -- seems to have disappeared without trace in popular memory.So, I am not in the least surprised to see the sort of blindness to what is going on in the US that is so common. KF kairosfocus

ET, please, on tone. KF kairosfocus

There is plenty of evidence to indict. You are just a clueless troll. ET

ET

So the justice department didn’t go after Obama and his cronies. Typical.

Oh. The old DEEP STATE tinfoil hat conspiracy theory. Or, more likely, there isn’t sufficient evidence to indict. Mac McTavish

So the justice department didn't go after Obama and his cronies. Typical. ET

KF, I do agree that Olbermann should be rebuked (and corrected and repudiated). In fact, I hereby rebuke him. :-) Trump is claiming that his opponent (to whom he is losing badly) shouldn't be allowed to run. "DO SOMETHING!", he cries. Not sure how that would be carried out in our system. I guess Bill Barr is supposed to pick up the phone and make it happen? He thinks the president should be able to have his opposition detained outside of any legal process? How is that not totalitarianism? daveS

KF

... the 33k emails lurk, and the domestic spying and takedown attempt issues are yet to come out. Guavas and Jackfruit.

Number of convictions of Obama administration, 0. Number of convictions of Trump administration, eight. Mac McTavish

DS, chalk to cheese, Mr Olbermann is advocating totalitarianism, kangaroo courts and worse; implying that he is part of a class . . . the nomenklatura reborn . . . with right to rule to the point that a decent wife, mother, brilliant academic and competent judge should be railroaded for failing to toe the partyline. He should be sharply corrected and repudiated. I won't hold my breath. KF kairosfocus

MMT, Fast and furious would have brought down another administration, the 33k emails lurk, and the domestic spying and takedown attempt issues are yet to come out. Guavas and Jackfruit. KF kairosfocus

Criminal indictments during eight year Obama administration, 0. Criminal indictments during four year Trump administration, 215. Mac McTavish

Biden shouldn't be running because he isn't a leader. In 47 years in politics what has he done? What changes are in place because of him? And BTW, he admitted to quid pro quo with regards to the Ukraine. The same thing Trump was impeached for. ET

KF, What you're experiencing is similar to what some of us feel when we read stuff like this:

DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS, THE BIGGEST OF ALL POLITICAL SCANDALS (IN HISTORY)!!! BIDEN, OBAMA AND CROOKED HILLARY LED THIS TREASONOUS PLOT!!! BIDEN SHOULDN’T BE ALLOWED TO RUN - GOT CAUGHT!!!

daveS

F/N: I wonder if people realise the implications of the unhinged rant by a visibly out of control Mr Olberman here (especially of the mirror principle is applied and we trace the projections of hate to those who are projecting: https://twitter.com/BrentHBaker/status/1314650158978736128 KF kairosfocus

Murder on demand is available throughout the world. Perhaps we should just make it legal. ET

Mac and cheese:

Abortion on demand is common in many western democracies so I guess they are no less murderous that Marxist ideologies

The anti-ID mob loves to say that we can judge the character of a country by how it treats it's most vulnerable. Those "western democracies" allow theirs to be killed, for no reason but inconvenience. How pathetic is that? And how pathetic are the people who enable it? ET

MMT, I specifically noted that ("save for . . ."). That is a wider consequence of essentially the same root, evolutionary materialism, which has no world root IS capable of grounding OUGHT so is left to relativism and/or subjectivism. And yes, that speaks to the sobering moral degradation of our civilisation. Where as we are morally governed starting with rationality, that points to an unsustainable cultural development. We are on a march of folly. KF kairosfocus

KF

MMT (attn DS): If it were a FRINGE of marxists, I would not be pointing to it. Marxism was supposed to be dead 30 years ago, good riddance to the most murderous modern ideology of all, save for abortionism.

Abortion on demand is common in many western democracies so I guess they are no less murderous that Marxist ideologies. Mac McTavish

MMT (attn DS): If it were a FRINGE of marxists, I would not be pointing to it. Marxism was supposed to be dead 30 years ago, good riddance to the most murderous modern ideology of all, save for abortionism. But, it seems systems like that keep springing back up, here through culture form critical theories that dominated much of academia. Even the destructive, discredited labour theory of value is implicitly back as a way to delegitimise investment, enterprise and corporate debt and equity as implied robbery top be dispossessed. Back to May-June, I thought, race riots, not nice. Then a familiar pattern of red guards emerged with an ecology of front groups as a wide range of cultural symbols and key protections such as policing, courts and border controlsbecame targets . . . anticivilisation, misanthropic, red guards, elements of cultural revolution. Then, the founders of BLM were there on video saying it out loud, and the Antifa fit the same pattern. Long since, tactics, agit prop patterns etc were clear from 40 years ago. So no, when 48 of 50 top populous cities in the US suffer widespread riots, arson, burning, looting connected to obvious front operations, with enabling from local officials and major media etc, this is not half a dozen idiots in a cult being manipulated through groupthink. We saw a clear teamwork assassination and use of brigade, a signature term for Cuba connexions, likely through Venezuela. Wider patterns point to a colour revolution attempt on the McFaul pattern with a clear ride on an insurrection escalator. And 5 - 10 years of direct ground work lie behind what we see. A 4GW colour revolution insurgency of high sophistication is in progress, as an attempt. KF kairosfocus

And provocateurs are effective, KF. The result we can see historically played out in Latin American countries, who have suffered immensely as a result. Consider Argentina:

Argentina began the 20th century as one of the wealthiest places on the planet. In 1913, it was richer than France or Germany, almost twice as prosperous as Spain, and its per capita GDP was almost as high as that of Canada.

What happened? Bob O'H, Fascism is demonized simply because it was a communist heresy introduced in Italy by Mussolini. It was authoritarian, socialistic, and focused on national unity, whereas communism is authoritarian, socialistic, and focused on exporting their system to "liberate" the oppressed workers of the world. The left-right paradigm from the French Revolution is obsolete and completely irrelevant for cogent discussion of current politics. For example, in which countries, historical or contemporary, do you have more freedom: so-called left-wing countries such as North Korea, Cuba, and Venezuela or so-called right-wing countries such as Brazil, Costa Rica, and Japan? Which of those countries would you flee to once America is in flames and engulfed in murderous anarchy? You get to choose one. Which one is it? In terms of racial/ethnic oppression, the institutions of the United States and the media are worsening in terms of forcing racial/ethnic identity on people and promoting anti-American apartheid. The historical America is a melting pot of refugees from oppression in their own countries. Antifa is ironically a fascist organization that's intolerant of intellectual diversity and rejects the rule of law in favor of mob rule. Do you remember how well Antifa ran their autonomous zone in Seattle, CHAZ? Would you like America to be run like that? -Q Querius

When a fringe left-wing group uses violence, it is reflective of the entire left-wing and the result of a well organized global left-wing, Marxist conspiracy. When a fringe right-wing group uses violence... Talk about your self-referential incoherence.

Since you used the term left-wing and right-wing, why don't you define them. I have never seen any coherent definition of "right-wing." So is your comment incoherent? jerry

Exactly, Mac McT. daveS

DaveS

It’s a convenient way to blame “the left” for the actions of the WW* as well.

When a fringe left-wing group uses violence, it is reflective of the entire left-wing and the result of a well organized global left-wing, Marxist conspiracy. When a fringe right-wing group uses violence, it is reflective of the entire left-wing and the result of a well organized global left-wing, Marxist conspiracy. Talk about your self-referential incoherence. :) Mac McTavish

DS, anarchists are anarchists: they hate any and all government. The issue here is, an operation that makes no sense timed in October in the midst of pre-election debate season. That smacks of amplified street theatre to create a grand accusation using some useful idiots as cannon fodder, whatever their own wrongdoing might be. Do you remember what was done in Czechoslovakia? Where, it was a total frameup? And how the framed were judicially murdered by torture through medieval hanging? Think of a decent woman, a patriot-hero and mother strangled to death for 13 minutes on a framed up treason charge. Marxists have ALREADY done that to seize power. So once we see a familiar pattern, we have to turn to the prudence standard. That has to be factored in given what is already on the table and the way the media mouthpieces and pols have been operating. I think Mr Trump tried to make lemonade out of a lemon here. The second issue is the studious enabling of riot and more for months. The third is the context highlighted in the OP. The leap from what six idiots in Wisconsin to Mr Trump and "the right" in that context becomes just that little bit overdone especially as we recall events of 1995 in Oklahoma city. So, pardon that I will not buy the sing- off- the- hymn- sheet narrative on this. KF kairosfocus

KF, It's a convenient way to blame "the left" for the actions of the WW* as well. *WW = Wolverine Watchmen of course daveS

DS, agent provocateur is a notorious tactic and unfortunately it often works with people locked into a groupthink situation. That's why it has been around for centuries. KF kairosfocus

Jerry, the problem is, we are in the storm and many are disoriented, indeed that is a major intent of the media coverage as they could easily bring aboard those who could straighten out a lot of things. But, studiously, they do not in order to sustain a narrative. So, I am giving at least some orientation, which I separately know is appreciated. McFaul gives the framework for modern revolutions by manipulating media, electoral systems and lawfare (including playing the international sector). The insurrection escalator helps us understand the covert/overt buildup to forced radical regime change, though it is a bit more to outright fighting. And yes, trying to get over-reaction or atrocity optics to paint a lurid agit prop narrative is part of the agenda. Half the time the story is utterly distorted, the other half is is simply warped into half truths and lying suggestions. The scent of hysteria is characteristic, I have seen it to the point of wild eyed, fanatical agitation. H'mm, the infamous screaming woman in glasses from Jan 2017 is actually precisely a case in point. What these operators fail to understand is, there is a snapping point when they ARE going to get the real reaction, and with an armed hinterland, it will be huge. Not all the packed kangaroo courts, or narrative-pushing media, or suborned police or military units will help you if it goes that far. See, rule 6.5 mm/1,000 yd. Unfortunately, that would trigger a worst case for geostrategic global consequences. KF kairosfocus

BO'H, first, scroll up to the original post, which has several small charts. Second, if you are trying to discuss totalitarian street thugs and do not instantly recognise the SA vs SS (including the night of the long knives) vs Blackshirts, then you lack material background. SA is NOT an obscure reference, it is a key part of the Nazi seizure of power. KF kairosfocus

kf @67 -

BO’H: Kindly see OP on crooked yardsticks. Also, on the failure and incoherence of the traditional political spectrum. KF

I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say here. I don't even know what part of my comment you're responding to.

PS: As for your refusal to recognise the Brown Shirts of the SA . . . sturm abteilung . . . in the 1920’s – 30’s, that speaks for itself.

Yes, about the obscurity of you allusions. Try communicating in a way that people other than you will understand. Bob O'H

KF,

It in fact smells of manipulated useful idiots who could not think their way out of a wet paper bag.

Let's not diminish their agency. They have free will and are making their own choices, just like you and me. daveS

Kf, I stay away from these discussions here. They are endless and lead nowhere. But I thought you might be interested in this long article about Antifa strategy and violence. They push to a point hoping for an over reaction. https://reason.com/2020/10/02/the-conservative-trans-woman-who-went-undercover-with-antifa-in-portland/ They depend on restraint from their opponents but want a violent response to use for PR purposes knowing their actions will not be exposed. If you want to understand the sudden news in Michigan about the plot to kidnap the governor then this article will explain why. https://thefederalist.com/2020/10/07/in-michigan-trump-and-biden-compete-for-pandemic-weary-swing-voters/ They are afraid Trump may win Michigan. jerry

F/N: Tweet-chain overnight: >>Donald J. Trump 12h Governor Whitmer of Michigan has done a terrible job. She locked down her state for everyone, except her husband’s boating activities. The Federal Government provided tremendous help to the Great People of Michigan. My Justice Department and Federal Law Enforcement announced... Donald J. Trump 12h ...today that they foiled a dangerous plot against the Governor of Michigan. Rather than say thank you, she calls me a White Supremacist—while Biden and Democrats refuse to condemn Antifa, Anarchists, Looters and Mobs that burn down Democrat run cities... Donald J. Trump 12h ...I do not tolerate ANY extreme violence. Defending ALL Americans, even those who oppose and attack me, is what I will always do as your President! Governor Whitmer—open up your state, open up your schools, and open up your churches!>> NY Contractor tone again, but there is in fact a point there. Especially as it is clear that one of the arrested, already is on tape as an anarchist. A plot, apparently, to kidnap and do some sort of show trial for lockdowns doesn't seem to make any sense. It in fact smells of manipulated useful idiots who could not think their way out of a wet paper bag. KF kairosfocus

KF, Of course, this can all be resolved by reading the cave allegory. And by pondering W = {A|~A}, {}->0, {{}}->1, {{}, {{}}}->2, &c. :P daveS

DS, see Plato's parable of the Cave. Then observe the insurgency escalator that you will not acknowledge to be applicable. KF kairosfocus

BO'H: Kindly see OP on crooked yardsticks. Also, on the failure and incoherence of the traditional political spectrum. KF PS: As for your refusal to recognise the Brown Shirts of the SA . . . sturm abteilung . . . in the 1920's - 30's, that speaks for itself. kairosfocus

The Proud Boys are not a white supremacist's group. The chairman of the International part is a black man. ET

This the the 3rd time Biden will run for President. The first time he was caught plagiarizing a speech and dropped out. The second time he was shown to be a racist, and dropped out. In 47 years of service no one can point to anything good Biden has done while in office. "Anyone but Trump" is a loser platform. And that is all Biden is. ET

Do you not see the double-standards and self-referential incoherence?

Err, no. Unless you mean the demand to denounce both the positions of the far right and those opposed to the far right. (denouncing violence is a different thing, and is something Biden has done: see post 51).

Do you think a mere cleverly chosen marketing brand name alters the ugly reality on the ground reflecting actual identity by key patterns and characteristics?

You might now what you mean by "the ugly reality on the ground reflecting actual identity by key patterns and characteristics", but it could refer to a lot of things.

To denounce SA-lite bully boys and girls tied to a network of cultural form marxist front groups and their backers/enablers is to be “pro-fascist.”

By "SA-lite bully boys and girls tied to a network of cultural form marxist front groups" you are referring to some of the more violent groups that opposed apartheid in South Africa, in which case it might be referred to as "pro-fascist" (one could debate the accuracy, but the similarities are close enough that someone would be able to defend the claim). If by "SA-lite" you mean something else, it would help if you weren't so obscure. Really, there are times when it's almost impossible to discern the meaning in your writing. We don't all have access to your mind, so we don't have access to the assumed knowledge you seem to think we have. Rather than allude to things with vague phrases like "the ugly reality on the ground reflecting actual identity by key patterns and characteristics", spell them out. It will probably take up fewer characters, and will make it much easy to have an actual discussion. Bob O'H

If an alien with no knowledge of our current events were to read this thread, they would be confused. It would appear that the participants are talking about two parallel universes A and B where in many cases, P is true in universe A iff not P is true in universe B. daveS

BO'H: Do you not see the double-standards and self-referential incoherence? Do you think a mere cleverly chosen marketing brand name alters the ugly reality on the ground reflecting actual identity by key patterns and characteristics? To denounce SA-lite bully boys and girls tied to a network of cultural form marxist front groups and their backers/enablers is to be "pro-fascist." Okay, you have told us all we need to know to apply the mirror principle that projected words reflect the wellsprings they flow from. Thanks for the warning. KF kairosfocus

Vivid, "defund" -- not, cut -- the police is only euphemistic for abolish lawful police, abolish courts convicted of racism for sending population-over-represented (not criminality over-represented) numbers of minorities to gaol, cancel sentences of minorities and much more. To be replaced, doubtless by all too familiar ideological, kangaroo court substitutes from the C20's menagerie of totalitarian nightmares. And of course freedom of speech, conscience and self defence are to be destroyed. We need instead to go back to the premises of the inescapable first duties of reason and reform from the ground up. KF PS: Where to start:

We can readily identify at least seven inescapable first duties of reason. Inescapable, as they are so antecedent to reasoning that even the objector implicitly appeals to them; i.e. they are self-evident. Duties, to truth, to right reason, to prudence, to sound conscience, to neighbour, so also to fairness and justice etc. Such built in law is not invented by parliaments or courts, nor can these principles and duties be abolished by such. (Cf. Cicero in De Legibus, c. 50 BC.) Indeed, it is on this framework that we can set out to soundly understand and duly balance rights, freedoms and duties; which is justice. The legitimate main task of government, then, is to uphold and defend the civil peace of justice through sound community order reflecting the built in, intelligible law of our nature. Where, as my right implies your duty a true right is a binding moral claim to be respected in life, liberty, honestly aquired property, innocent reputation etc. To so justly claim a right, one must therefore demonstrably be in the right. Thus, too, we may compose sound civil law informed by that built-in law of our responsibly, rationally free morally governed nature; from such, we may identify what is unsound or false thus to be reformed or replaced even though enacted under the colour and solemn ceremonies of law. These duties, also, are a framework for understanding and articulating the corpus of built-in law of our morally governed nature, antecedent to civil laws and manifesting our roots in the Supreme Law-giver, the inherently good, utterly wise and just creator-God.

You will notice, consistent dodging of this. PPS: Actually, there are several obvious equivalents to the SA on the streets, they do the usual swtcheroo and project the fascists to the "right" while manifesting classic fascism, totalitarian statist political messianism seeking ideological subjugation of all in pursuit of a new utopian messianistic cult focussed on some new superman above conventional "bourgeois" law in the face of a crisis that demands rescue of the favoured group from its enemies. The conventional political spectrum, of course, isn't even coherent. See my remarks in the OP. kairosfocus

“doubt Biden would want to appear to be pro-fascist. It would seem an odd stance for a main-stream politician to take.” Not odd when there are no material pro fascist groups. Antifa according to Joe is only an idea. This is the first time in the history of the universe that an immaterial abstraction has caused billions of dollars in property damage and put the lives of first responders at risk, Vivid vividbleau

“But when you have a one-party system like in California, there are no consequences to even the most egregious laws” Like proposition 16, they want to get rid of anti discrimination laws!! California can’t even keep the lights on because their back ups are solar. Vivid vividbleau

Has Joe Biden now condemned Antifa by name as did Donald Trump to the KKK and the Proud Boys (whoever they are)?

I doubt Biden would want to appear to be pro-fascist. It would seem an odd stance for a main-stream politician to take. Bob O'H

“No good can come of the sort of march of folly that has been set loose.” Buy a gun. We are moving toward mob rule and mob justice. The left wants to defund the police and some are calling for abolishing the police while denying citizens the ability to defend themselves. If you do defend yourself mob justice indicts you while refusing to prosecute those exhibiting criminal behavior., it is astounding that the classic liberals are blind to the danger that is coming their way. Vivid vividbleau

Seversky, Vivid is right. I add that if the radicals clearly win, Mr Trump will leave office, fortifying his legal army and accountants (including the eye patched crow on the shoulder of the eye-patched accounting demon) to face the sort of politicised prosecution and kangaroo court that has enmeshed Gen Flynn. If there is a chaotic situation he will try to sort it out before it is too late. If he wins, he will face street chaos and lawfare worse than since November 2016. We are dealing with the McFaul playbook and insurgency escalator, not a normal election process. At this stage major news developments, commentary, political assertions etc need to be viewed through the mirror principle. KF kairosfocus

Vivid, this is not an ordinary election cycle. It is clear that a McFaul delegitimisation process is in hand to set the stage for further advancing a cultural revolution. The insurgency escalator has been in progress, and from the radicals, driven by various critical theories. Yes, various polls are suggesting that the US is about to vote to become Venezuela, on steroids. That would only be possible if a majority have been bewitched by delegitimisation agit prop. As riots have been going on for months, I doubt that. I am beginning to suspect polarisation has got to the point of breakdown of trust and either refusal to answer/evasion or else deliberate falsification. We will see on that front. I would pull back to get a wider perspective. Who benefits, locally and globally? As institutions have been steadily subverted and perverted for decades, I point to local entrenched interests seeking to protect turf and advance their preferred radical transformation to a neo-pagan, de-Christianised, anti-Christian order. The sort of space where three to seven year old boys will be encouraged to imagine themselves girls and will be mutilated to create monsters. Also, where power will forever be locked in and to dare to try to speak out against the partyline and the two minute hate, much less defend yourself from the marauding mob will land you before a chain of kangaroo courts all the way to the newly packed Supreme Court. Where crippling taxes and unsustainable policies will loot resources and cripple the future. And of course the world stabilising US Navy will go to the dogs, opening up opportunities for already circling geostrategic vultures. Are people that bewitched? I don't think so, but I could be wrong of course. Globally, China has been crushing Hong Kong, intimidating other neighbours, is sabre-rattling against Taiwan and has been crushing centres of actual or potential dissidence, while it has been working to financially enmesh a series of client states in strategic locations. Russia is another wild card but has been relatively quiet. Radical Islam (much wider than merely Iran and terror groups) has been ever-ready to pounce. The line of drift in Turkey, in that context is not a happy one. More shadowy global power networks clearly would welcome entrenching power and securing themselves from a US peasant uprising by ballot box. Not to mention, serious investigations. If Mr Trump wins against all apparent odds, there will be a nasty reaction from those who clearly imagine only they can be legitimate rulers . . . they likely don't realise they are moving towards lawless ideology driven oligarchy. Over the months to January, I expect electoral chaos and lawfare on the no concession policy advocated by Mrs Clinton and the already manifest trend. Delegitimisation attempts will continue and so will running riot in the street protected by local pols as has been going on. If Mr Trump loses, those who gained power by delegitimisation, riot and intimidation, manifesting economic and geostrategic ignorance, will feel empowered to go for Venezuela North. No good can come of the sort of march of folly that has been set loose. KF kairosfocus

Seversky,

He clearly believes that the only way he could lose an election is through massive vote-rigging. He has been strenuously promoting the narrative of massive voter fraud even though none has been found even by loyal minions like Kris Kobach.

No, that's not clearly the case. Massive voter fraud is clearly a threat that should be addressed by both parties--and it seems that one party is doing everything in its power to wreck the integrity of our upcoming election. So now, we'll have an election that is even less secure as demonstrated by dumped returns by some postal worker, the lack of even the simplest checks for fraud such as checking for signatures. Consider the election mess in New Jersey as an example. A study that sampled votes cast in a California election a number of years ago estimated that about 18% of votes cast were ineligible or untraceable. Do you think that this bad? What I don't think you realize is that the competition between the political parties forces politicians to perform (or at least make promises or be blamed for their failures). But when you have a one-party system like in California, there are no consequences to even the most egregious laws such as the one that now bans most independent contractors (we'll be voting in November on whether Uber and Lyft will be specifically exempted from this terrible law). There's another one coming up that will halt the sale of all petroleum-fueled transportation in a few years. Fine, but where will California get all the electricity it needs now that it's decommissioning a major nuclear plant? Covering the Sacramento valley with solar panels or the charred hills of what used to be California's wine country with wind turbines? Has Joe Biden now condemned Antifa by name as did Donald Trump to the KKK and the Proud Boys (whoever they are)?

If, as far as we can tell, there can be no perceptible existence without spatial and temporal dimensions, then your God must exist in some sort of space-time continuum even if it’s not just this one but one that exists beyond ours.

When Moses asked God to provide him a name, God described himself as I AM (personal existence, not trapped in time). That God created space-time, mass-energy, and everything else in our universe by speaking words, indicates that information is more fundamental to existence than anything else as far as the Biblical account tells us. Don't believe there's scientific evidence to back this up? Consider the following. Vlatko Vedral is a professor of Physics at the University of Oxford who specializes in quantum theory and whose research papers are widely cited refutes your concept this way:

The most fundamental definition of reality is not matter or energy, but information–and it is the processing of information that lies at the root of all physical, biological, economic, and social phenomena.

Also note that the concept of time is meaningless without periodicity, and periodicity requires mass-energy. The concept of space also is meaningless without distance, and distance requires mass-energy. However, information does not require space or time (although storing information in our universe does). God does not need time to create time or space to create space. If you think God is a man with a white beard somewhere on the clouds, you're mistaking God for Zeus, and your God is too small. -Q Querius

Gotta love the left. They tried to engineer a silent coup using disinformation bought and paid for by the DNC, Hilary Clinton has advised Biden that under no circumstances he concede on election night, and now are whining about Trump. If the Dems are willing to stage a coup why would they not try to rig an election? Everything the left aims at Trump are actually the very things that they are doing themselves. Pence was right the Dems still do not accept the election results of 2016 and now Pelosi, after a failed coup, a bogus Russian investigation, a failed bogus impeachment attempt, is now scheming to manufacture another outrage using the 25th amendment. If I am Trump I would be hesitant to accept any election result , if they are close, until all these mail in ballots are verified. Besides he is 20 points down in the polls so it should be a non issue however what’s curious to me are a couple of things. 1) African Americans overwhelmingly vote for Dems so ordinarily with your base secure you want to attract outside of your base voters. Virtually their whole convention was aimed at their base. Are they worried that African Americans are tired of being taken for granted? 2)The election is less than a month away why bring up the 25th amendment if Biden is 20 points ahead? 3) Anecdotally, my daughter is married to a Latino, another Dem stronghold, she is telling me that her Latino friends are voting for Trump Vivid vividbleau

DaveS/49

So would I. Herr Schicklgruber is mentioned here quite frequently.

Indeed, as are Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot. Seversky

Querius/25

The question presupposes that Trump loses and that he has absolute control over the population.

No, the question presupposes that Trump loses but doesn't accept the result is genuine. He would believe he has the support of a sufficient number of Americans to get away with refusing to concede and risk precipitating a grave constitutional crisis up to and including civil war. He would gamble that his opponents, when put to the test, would not have the will-power to stand up to him, much as Hitler gambled that Britain and France would not do anything to actively oppose Germany's remilitarization of the Rhineland in 1936.

Should Trump lose, I wouldn’t think that he would launch a four-year campaign to determine whether there was Russian (or Chinese) collusion like the Democratic leadership did when they lost.

Why not? He clearly believes that the only way he could lose an election is through massive vote-rigging. He has been strenuously promoting the narrative of massive voter fraud even though none has been found even by loyal minions like Kris Kobach. He welcomed the hacking of John Podesta's emails and openly sought their release through Wikileaks. Strange that a Democratic database was hacked by Putin's cyber-criminals but not a Republican one. And then there was that phone call to Ukrainian President Zelenskiy where he asked him to investigate a debunked conspiracy theory about Ukrainian interference in the 2016 election. If there's one thing you can say about Trump it's that he doesn't give up easily - as long as there's no risk of "Cadet Bonespurs" being involved in actual fighting.

However should Trump win, I would mirror the question whether the Democratic leadership would commit to a peaceful continuation of power, condemning violent groups such as Antifa.

Statement from Joe Biden, August 30 2020, condemning the violence in Portland

The deadly violence we saw overnight in Portland is unacceptable. Shooting in the streets of a great American city is unacceptable. I condemn this violence unequivocally. I condemn violence of every kind by any one, whether on the left or the right. And I challenge Donald Trump to do the same. It does not matter if you find the political views of your opponents abhorrent, any loss of life is a tragedy. Today there is another family grieving in America, and Jill and I offer our deepest condolences. We must not become a country at war with ourselves. A country that accepts the killing of fellow Americans who do not agree with you. A country that vows vengeance toward one another. But that is the America that President Trump wants us to be, the America he believes we are. As a country, we must condemn the incitement of hate and resentment that led to this deadly clash. It is not a peaceful protest when you go out spoiling for a fight. What does President Trump think will happen when he continues to insist on fanning the flames of hate and division in our society and using the politics of fear to whip up his supporters? He is recklessly encouraging violence. He may believe tweeting about law and order makes him strong – but his failure to call on his supporters to stop seeking conflict shows just how weak he is. He may think that war in our streets is good for his reelection chances, but that is not presidential leadership–or even basic human compassion. The job of a President is to lower the temperature. To bring people who disagree with one another together. To make life better for all Americans, not just those who agree with us, support us, or vote for us. Donald Trump has been president for almost four years. The temperature in the country is higher, tensions run stronger, divisions run deeper. And all of us are less safe because Donald Trump can’t do the job of the American president.

As for accepting the results of the election, in the first presidential debate

Democratic presidential nominee Joe Biden pledged Tuesday night to accept the outcome of the election, while President Donald Trump urged his supporters to “watch very carefully” what happens as voters cast their general election ballots. Those comments were in response to a question at the first presidential debate from debate moderator and Fox News anchor Chris Wallace, who asked the two men if they would signal they trust the electoral process by urging supporters to calmly accept the election results and not declaring victory until the final tally is certified. “Once the winner is declared after all the ballots are counted, all the votes are counted, that will be the end of it,” Biden said. “And if it’s me in fact, fine. If it’s not me, I’ll support the outcome.” Trump did not make a similar promise, instead saying he hopes it will be a “fair election” but directing those who support him to watch for evidence of fraud or misconduct. “I am urging my supporters to go into the polls and watch very carefully, because that’s what has to happen. I am urging them to do it,” Trump said, adding: “I hope it’s going to be a fair election. … But if I see tens of thousands of ballots being manipulated, I can’t go along with that.”

I didn’t think so.

You thought wrong.

Speaking of ducking questions, you never answered the question, “If God created time, would it make sense to ask questions about what happened before God did so?” Similarly, if God created space, would it make sense to ask where God was located before there was space?

If your God exists then He existed before the beginning of the space-time continuum of this Universe. If, as far as we can tell, there can be no perceptible existence without spatial and temporal dimensions, then your God must exist in some sort of space-time continuum even if it's not just this one but one that exists beyond ours. Why do you ask? Are you one of those who believes Trump was chosen by God to be President? Seversky

DS, unfortunately, the austrian corporal has been used as a primary label to tag the "right" with nazism etc. A good first point would be to learn what nazi stands for. National socialist German Workers' Psrty. KF kairosfocus

Querius,

I’d also love to see intelligent, civil discourse on controversial topics without hysterics and making comparisons with Hitler.

So would I. Herr Schicklgruber is mentioned here quite frequently. daveS

DaveS @43,

I don’t really want our presidential candidates to respect the election results only conditionally.

That's not what I wrote. Since the Democrats didn't accept the results of the last election and spent four years fabricating charges of Russian collusion with Trump, isn't kind of rich that they want to make sure that Trump promises to not copy what they did before and after the last election? Quite honestly, I'd love to see a fair election with verified identity (i.e. driver's license), honest ballot counting, no dead people voting, no "ballot harvesting" as they do in California with people going door to door "helping" people to vote. I'd also love to see intelligent, civil discourse on controversial topics without hysterics and making comparisons with Hitler. Do you remember the "Bushitler" and "He's not my president" bumper stickers? -Q Querius

ET, all of this is conveniently distractive from the real civilisational threat, the dirty form McFaul colour revolution playbook and the steady rise on the insurrection escalator. Of course, lawfare is the clear intended end game, riding on a suitably manipulated public's ill advised vote to go with a seemingly sweet south wind; don't forget that direct coup failed in 1923 but subverted elections and dirty back room deals worked wonderfully in 1933 Germany. A lesson. We know the lawfare game is intended from the reaction to the opening up of a USSC vacancy. They intend to pack the court once they get in. Then, they imagine they can use the already corrupted court powers . . . it was never intended to be a life tenure super-legislature . . . to further pervert the US Constitutional framework. As in, a kangaroo court will carry forward the radical, cultural marxist agenda at will with the 1984 media cheering it on. First and Second Amendment protections for sure, will be on the chopping block, if they have their way. The Electoral college's safeguards will be gutted, undoing the Connecticut compromise. Senate packing will follow through trying to insert likely several new states, to lock in the projected advantage. The project 1619 agenda would then go to warp factor 10+. On wider policy, welcome to Venezuela north, compadre. With that sort of backing, the radicals intend to run riot. They seem to have amnesia regarding the reliable outcome of radical revolutions -- disaster. For them, it is always year zero. History tells us, democracies can be subverted and fail, with Athens as capital example. The geostrategic centre of gravity of our civilisation is at kairos. KF kairosfocus

How is the question loaded? Really? It assumes there will be a transfer, duh. Hump? What hump? ET

seversky:

Trump was asked directly on at least -two previous occasions if he would commit to a peaceful transfer of power and he declined on both occasions. This is irresponsible from a President of the United States

I am glad that it bothers you. It's pretty stupid for him to answer such a question. But I understand why you cannot grasp that. ET

It looks like those inbred hicks, erm, "Wolverine Watchmen" were trying to kick off the boog. lol. daveS

Querius, I don't really want our presidential candidates to respect the election results only conditionally. daveS

DS, while I am no fan of the NY Contractor in chief and how he often talks choppily, he was actually coherent. KF kairosfocus

Q, that would be twisted into see he evades the question. We already have it on record again and again how his words have been twisted into suitable caricatures to demonise. Fine people, UV irradiation of lungs, repudiation of proud boys and presumably racist nationalists in the first debate, a salute to Marine 1 etc etc. The bottom-line is, we see that the major media have killed their credibility and the enabling of extremism and resort to the worst agit prop big lie techniques have exposed the hollowness of years of cynical effort to delegitimise the current US president up to and including dubious impeachment. The net result is, destabilisation of the US political system, opening up the abyss. Utter folly. KF kairosfocus

KF, I'm sure you would not stand at the lectern rambling incoherently "we'll see", "the ballots are a disaster" and so forth. daveS

MMT, it seems there is a developing situation, there will need to be time for clarity to develop. Obviously, I have long been on record that even in a lawful oligarchy there is no justification for riot or the like and it seems we here have a fringe group of crazies, complete with posing with A-circle anarchist flags. I find it sadly revealing that Mr Trump's rhetoric seems to be being blamed as a trigger even as we witnessed the events, words and spin over the last several months. The one sidedness is its own refutation. However, the basic point is, let us see what comes out in coming days so we can build up a more credible view. KF kairosfocus

Trump: You're asking me that I should commit to accepting the results of the election and not what the Democrats did for the last four years? That's rich! Before I do, I would first like to hear that the Democrats will accept the results of the upcoming election this time even if I win again and that they repudiate Antifa and other violent organizations. -Q Querius

DS, I would have pointed out the twisted nature of the question and pointed out that it isn't even a real issue. Where, recall, Mr Pence replied much like that last night. The truth is, no answer would be accepted. KF kairosfocus

U/D: It seems we may have BATNA on debate 2, on imposition of a virtual format. KF kairosfocus

KF,

stripping the surface stuff you implicitly concede my point.

No, not at all. But for the sake of argument, let's say I accept your point. What do you think Trump should have said in response to the question? (In fewer than 1000 words please). daveS

DS, stripping the surface stuff you implicitly concede my point. That brings us back to, the question is dishonest, needlessly tainting and intended to destabilise the US political system through further polarisation. KF kairosfocus

KF

DS, The question being made is loaded and any answer would be twisted.

Nonsense. Similar questions have been asked of previous candidates and they have had no problem answering it. Have you addressed the recent plot by a militia group (ie, terrorist groupie) to kidnap the Michigan governor, utilizing guns and Molotov cocktails? Has the president addressed it? Surely an attempt to violently overthrow a duly elected state government should be at the top of his priorities. Mac McTavish

KF,

The question being made is loaded and any answer would be twisted.

No, it's not loaded. Even if it were the only option is to give the answer I described. Is there a point to answering it cryptically, "well, we'll have to see"? He's president. He has to sack up, tell the truth, and reassure the public that he will abide by the election results, even if he believes he's being treated unfairly. And I fully expect that if Trump loses, he will end up leaving voluntarily (perhaps after being pressured by some of the adults in the room). He might pull a Roy Moore and never concede though. daveS

PS The geostrategic consequences give everyone on this planet a stake in the present US chaos. kairosfocus

DS, The question being made is loaded and any answer would be twisted. Instead, you tell us, explain a reasonable scenario where once there is a resolved election, any given lame duck president can successfully refuse to demit office c. Jan, 2021: ______ . And, given the fallbacks, tell us how there would otherwise be no designated successor and no swearing in thereof: ______ . Far more credible would be chaos triggered by lawfare and attempts to use questionable mail in ballots and/or demanded recounts etc triggering fall back mechanisms that would lead to an attempt to do a McFaul type move to delegitimise a re-elected president. We already have Mrs Clinton on record, advising Mr Biden not to concede. KF kairosfocus

KF, Kindly review this video. Speaking as an American, the only acceptable answer to such a question is "Yes, I will honor the results of the election, even if I lose". Trump has failed to answer the question forthrightly (now and in 2016). That doesn't fly here. I don't mean to be harsh, but you don't have any standing in the matter. daveS

PS: Let me add an historical reference. It is 1915, and the Canadian Corps has just stepped into the breach and stopped a line breach based on using Chlorine gas. What next? Use only passive measures? That would predictably lead instead to escalation to get an even better success. The Allies retaliated in kind and WW1 became the first general gas war. Next time around though, even though stockpiles were there, no one wanted to go first. Sadly, the Germans notoriously used Zyklon B on unarmed civilians at death camps. The British, in 1940, intended to use gas if German troops came ashore in a major invasion. Clearly, measured retaliation and deterrence worked. (And I just got a funny message from overzealous security software.) kairosfocus

Seversky & BO'H (attn DS too): Have you ever heard of a loaded -- tainting -- question, of order have you stopped beating your wife? That is, this is an accusation and insinuation in the guise of a question. Similar to the "fine people" smear and what has been done with repeated, explicit denunciations or repudiations of extremists. The reality is, there is no good reason whatsoever to believe that any American President from the 1790's to 2020 . . . including Lincoln . . . would even attempt to mount a coup to hold on to office after a clear electoral defeat, so the question is dishonest, mischievous, malevolent on its face. If Mr Trump or Mr Pence tried a simplistic answer, that would predictably simply feed dismissal that they are liars, multiplied by further accusations and demands; given what has already been happening. The only realistic rhetorical option is to challenge and expose it, given the context of clear setting up of electoral chaos and attempts to create perceived illegitimacy under the McFaul playbook. There is thus every right to take the mirror principle and reflect such tainting rhetoric back to those who posed it; so that a wider discussion will be opened up. Which, is exactly what Mr Pence did. For, he did not throw the first punch. He hit back first is its own refutation. You will observe, that I have been saying that we are seeing a very dirty 4G culture/colour revolution war in the US under McFaul playbook approaches and riding a modified insurrection escalator. This sorry piece of agit prop is more of the information battlespace "softening up" preparation for lawfare moves to come. In the end, those who have spent years undermining stability of the American political system will have a lot to answer for . . . including on geostrategic consequences. KF kairosfocus

Seversky, The question presupposes that Trump loses and that he has absolute control over the population. Should Trump lose, I wouldn't think that he would launch a four-year campaign to determine whether there was Russian (or Chinese) collusion like the Democratic leadership did when they lost. However should Trump win, I would mirror the question whether the Democratic leadership would commit to a peaceful continuation of power, condemning violent groups such as Antifa. I didn't think so. Speaking of ducking questions, you never answered the question, "If God created time, would it make sense to ask questions about what happened before God did so?" Similarly, if God created space, would it make sense to ask where God was located before there was space? -Q Querius

ET,

Why should there be a peaceful transfer of power if Biden wins?

Think about what would happen if there weren't. Hint: It wouldn't look like this. daveS

Trump was asked directly on at least -two previous occasions if he would commit to a peaceful transfer of power and he declined on both occasions. This is irresponsible from a President of the United States Seversky

seversky:

It doesn’t really matter what Mike Pence says. In this administration, all that counts is what Trump thinks and says on the day.

It didn't really matter what Joe Biden said. In that administration, all that counted is what Obama thinks and says on the day. It didn’t really matter what Al Gore said. In that administration, all that counted is what Clinton thinks and says on the day. ET

Why should there be a peaceful transfer of power if Biden wins? Given the documentation into what the last administration did to Trump I am surprised Biden and Trump aren't fighting. Trump should nail those documents to Biden forehead during the next debate. ET

Mr Pence answers on peaceful transfer of power (including why he expects to win)

By not answering the question. I know he's a politician, but this should be an easy one: "yes, of course I support a peaceful transfer of power. But I don't expect us to need one, because..." Bob O'H

KF,

The implicit issue is, what specific evidence driven reason would lead to doubts that a losing candidate would refuse to leave on legitimate conclusion of an election process.

The fact that Trump has been very cagey about this issue both in 2016 and 2020? daveS

It doesn't really matter what Mike Pence says. In this administration, all that counts is what Trump thinks and says on the day. Seversky

F/N: Mr Pence answers on peaceful transfer of power (including why he expects to win). He speaks to expected victory, outlines coalition and policy achievement highlights, then turns about the question, implying it is a question of tainting projection. The implicit issue is, what specific evidence driven reason would lead to doubts that a losing candidate would refuse to leave on legitimate conclusion of an election process. KF kairosfocus

F/N: Notice, a Grand Jury has set the McCloskeys to answer charges, after they brandished firearms to fend off a trespassing crowd of BLM/Antifa supporters who they said threatened lives and property. The weapon wielded by Mrs McCloskey was deliberately disabled from firing but was re-assembled by investigators to make it able to fire. A week later crowds returned, to find barriers and guards, they stayed on the public street. KF kairosfocus

F/N: Homeowners in WI begin to learn the ways of the mob (and beyond, the terror), as homes are attacked:

https://twitter.com/Julio_Rosas11/status/1314035040628731909 Julio Rosas @Julio_Rosas11 Replying to @Julio_Rosas11 As the BLM crowd was marching through the neighborhoods of Wauwatosa, one man came out to tell people to get off of his property, telling them there are people who most likely support BLM. One guy drove on his yard with a motorcycle. [ . . . ] Julio Rosas @Julio_Rosas11 · 9h Some rioters in Wauwatosa, WI are now smashing windows of homes. People in the crowd tried to stop them from targeting homes.

Connecting dots, First Things as already linked:

How did educated, liberal society respond to such terrorism? [waves of terrorism in Russia in the opening years of C20] What was the position of the Constitutional Democratic (Kadet) Party and its deputies in the Duma (the parliament set up in 1905)? Though Kadets advocated democratic, constitutional procedures, and did not themselves engage in ­terrorism, they aided the terrorists in any way they could. Kadets collected money for terrorists, turned their homes into safe houses, and called for total amnesty for arrested terrorists who pledged to continue the mayhem. Kadet Party central committee member N. N. Shchepkin declared that the party did not regard terrorists as criminals at all, but as saints and martyrs. The official Kadet paper, Herald of the Party of People’s Freedom, never published an article condemning political assassination. The party leader, Paul Milyukov, declared that “all means are now legitimate . . . and all means should be tried.” When asked to condemn terrorism, another liberal leader in the Duma, Ivan Petrunkevich, famously replied: “Condemn terror? That would be the moral death of the party!” Not just lawyers, teachers, doctors, and engineers, but even industrialists and bank directors raised money for the terrorists. Doing so signaled advanced opinion and good manners. A quote attributed to Lenin—“When we are ready to kill the capitalists, they will sell us the rope”—would have been more accurately rendered as: “They will buy us the rope and hire us to use it on them.” True to their word, when the Bolsheviks gained control, their organ of terror, the Cheka, “liquidated” members of all opposing parties, beginning with the Kadets. Why didn’t the liberals and businessmen see it coming? That question has bothered many students of revolutionary movements. Revolutions never succeed without the support of wealthy, liberal, educated society. Yet revolutionaries seldom conceal that their success entails the seizure of all wealth, the suppression of dissenting opinion, and the murder of class enemies. Lenin, after all, was by no means the only bloodthirsty Russian radical. In 1907, Ivan Pavlov—not the Nobel prize–winning scientist, but one of the brightest theoreticians of the especially violent ­Maximalists—published The Purification of Mankind, which divided humanity into ethical races. In this analysis, exploiters, vaguely and broadly identified, constituted a race, “morally inferior to our animal predecessors,” which must be exterminated, children and all, by the morally superior race, whose best members were the terrorists themselves. Remarkably enough, this program evoked no indignation, among other Maximalists or even among other socialists, however moderate. Another prominent Maximalist, M. A. Engel’gardt, argued for a red terror that would kill at least twelve million people. As if anticipating the Khmer Rouge, one anarchist group sought to establish equality by killing all educated people.

Of course, come the Bolsheviks, they were taken by the terror. Similarly, let us note Helen Andrews as also linked, on fatal disaffection and consequences:

In June, the great Russian literature professor Gary Saul Morson told The Wall Street Journal that America was starting to feel eerily familiar. “It’s astonishingly like late 19th-, early 20th-century Russia, when basically the entire educated class felt you simply had to be against the regime or some sort of revolutionary,” he said. Even the moderate Kadet Party could not bring itself to condemn terrorism against the czar, any more than a modern Democrat could condemn Black Lives Matter: “A famous line from one of the liberal leaders put it this way: ‘Condemn terrorism? That would be the moral death of the party.’” Today, the Resistance is already signaling that they won’t accept a Trump victory in November any more than they accepted one in 2016. After the last election, they attempted a soft coup by means of the Russiagate scandal and impeachment. What kind of coup will come next? . . .

The USA is in unprecedented circumstances after decades of indoctrination in disaffection under colour of education and critical thinking [actually, culture form marxist critical theories], and lacks references to evaluate prudently. Yes, it seems strange, that is how strategic surprise feels on the receiving end. That is part of why the insurgency escalator is on the table. KF kairosfocus

Of course, this OP is an example of why a 4GW insurgency effects strategic surprise. It is beyond the Overton window zone of what seems plausible to most, but there are enough in the community to get an escalator going. And, our formal and informal education does not sufficiently help us on the history side. So, we underestimate vulnerability until the escalator is going like an avalanche, by which time it is too late. Or at least, too late to prevent serious damage. kairosfocus

It is almost amusing to see who are not here to comment on the further detailed framework that helps us recognise what we are now facing. BTW, I discovered that using the slide dot to expand actually contracted, so, I reverted to simply embedding. kairosfocus

Further chilling reflections on history, what happens when fatal disaffection sets in https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/2020-is-tumbling-toward-1917/ kairosfocus

Chilling history: https://www.firstthings.com/article/2020/10/suicide-of-the-liberals kairosfocus

Political science aint. Science, that is. kairosfocus

QUOTE OF THE DAY “The conventions that have guided the relationship between science and politics are under threat, and Nature cannot stand by in silence.” Science and politics are inseparable, argues a Nature editorial. Nature plans to increase politics coverage from around the world, and to publish more primary research in political science and related fields. (Nature) ‘Political science’ my God! And ‘related fields’ ??? Springer wants to set the world to rights, but it can’t do it with Maths and Physics and Chemistry, so it guides we peasants with ‘political science’ and related’ fields. Belfast

Belfast, Apparently, unsupported assertions are now considered irrefutable proof when uttered by authorities in conformance with current leftist ideology. This insanity is now leaking at an accelerated rate into all branches of science and mathematics. I can easily imagine U.S. geneticists wholeheartedly embracing Lysenkoism--or lose their jobs. oh joy. -Q Querius

Uncommon descent made an issue of Scientific American - what can you make now of this from Nature in their daily briefing today [briefing@nature.com] ‘Today we celebrate the winners of the physics Nobel, explore the impact of US President Donald Trump on science and learn why Nature needs to cover politics now more than ever.’ They followed this up with, .‘US President Donald Trump’s actions have exacerbated the coronavirus pandemic that has killed more than 200,000 people in the United States, rolled back environmental and public-health regulations and undermined science and scientific institutions.’ Belfast

Q, point. When cannons stop chomping down, you don't want ex cannon fodder survivors around as threats to the new order with potentially dangerous skills in mounting revolutions. KF kairosfocus

Polistra @3, And as you know, when they've toppled a government, a new, more brutal group emerges from the shadows. The former revolutionaries are given sincere thanks by the new government . . . and then executed since they're no longer needed. After 70 years or so, a new generation will realize that they've been totally duped. The "free" healthcare, guaranteed employment, and housing is simply a euphemism for old-fashioned plantation slavery. -Q Querius

H/mm, some years ago, the Antifa "idea" materialised as an "ambassador" speaking to a sanctuary City Council, in a demonically out of control rage. Language warning:

Andy Ngô @MrAndyNgo Replying to @MrAndyNgo #Antifa militant Jeffrey R. Singer, who was arrested (& released) overnight, previously went on an expletive-laden tirade at city council meeting. Antifa were broadcasting their agenda in public years ago: "This is Little Beirut...You are laying the seeds for a [SNIP] insurrection"

Beirut was epicentre of a multipolar civil war that burned on horrifically for years on end. Seeds for a [SNIP] insurrection, could not be plainer. If an angry representative of a group announces insurrection, take it seriously. KF kairosfocus

Polistra, did you know the Communists literally had exams in selling the party newspaper? yes, they were THAT finely organised. We need to understand what we are dealing with, trained professionals. For example, the organisers of BLM literally told the world that, it was conveniently sidelined. Speaking of, what is a professional community organiser of the Alinsky, Chicago School? What do you think you will get if you have such in the most powerful executive office in the world for almost a decade, and with the dominant media in his back pocket? Is it any surprise to see what we are seeing, then? KF kairosfocus

Here, I'll straighten out all the tangles. One word, young man. DEMONS. Or a slightly longer word, PSYCHOPATHS. These DEMONS don't need complex spaghetti-code plans and organizations. They NEED to kill everything and everyone, and they don't NEED codes or rules or laws or constitutions or patterns. polistra

A revolution is like an iceberg . . . it's the hidden part that sinks ya. kairosfocus

KEY BACKGROUND: Culture/Colour Revolution insurgency escalator --> "We are here . . . " kairosfocus