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George Orwell on “What is Science?”

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Recently, while browsing through the essays of George Orwell – a writer I’ve always admired, even when I disagree with him – I came across one entitled, What is Science? which struck me as both timely and prescient. I’d like to quote a few excerpts, and invite readers to weigh in with their opinions. (Emphases below are mine.)

[T]he word Science is at present used in at least two meanings, and the whole question of scientific education is obscured by the current tendency to dodge from one meaning to the other.

Science is generally taken as meaning either (a) the exact sciences, such as chemistry, physics, etc., or (b) a method of thought which obtains verifiable results by reasoning logically from observed fact.

If you ask any scientist, or indeed almost any educated person, “What is Science?” you are likely to get an answer approximating to (b). In everyday life, however, both in speaking and in writing, when people say “Science” they mean (a). Science means something that happens in a laboratory: the very word calls up a picture of graphs, test-tubes, balances, Bunsen burners, microscopes. A biologist, and astronomer, perhaps a psychologist or a mathematician is described as a “man of Science”: no one would think of applying this term to a statesman, a poet, a journalist or even a philosopher. And those who tell us that the young must be scientifically educated mean, almost invariably, that they should be taught more about radioactivity, or the stars, or the physiology or their own bodies, rather than that they should be taught to think more exactly.

Orwell is arguing here that science, in the true sense of the word, is about forming one’s opinions by thinking clearly about facts that are publicly shareable and demonstrable. On this definition, anyone who has acquired the habit of thinking in this way should be entitled to call themselves a scientist.

In Orwell’s day, it was seen as a Good Thing that students should learn about “radioactivity, or the stars, or the physiology or their own bodies”; nowadays, educating our young about Darwinian evolution, sexual health for kindergartners, and global warming is deemed to be the latest Good Thing. The focus has changed; but sadly, the paternalistic mindset of the “powers that be” hasn’t.

The demand for more science education, as Orwell astutely perceived, reflects an underlying political agenda, based on the naive belief – falsified by history – that we’d all be better off if scientists ruled the world:

This confusion of meaning, which is partly deliberate, has in it a great danger. Implied in the demand for more scientific education is the claim that if one has been scientifically trained one’s approach to all subjects will be more intelligent than if one had had no such training. A scientist’s political opinions, it is assumed, his opinions on sociological questions, on morals, on philosophy, perhaps even on the arts, will be more valuable than those of a layman. The world, in other words, would be a better place if the scientists were in control of it. But a “scientist”, as we have just seen, means in practice a specialist in one of the exact sciences. It follows that a chemist or a physicist, as such, is politically more intelligent than a poet or a lawyer, as such. And, in fact, there are already millions of people who do believe this.

But is it really true that a “scientist”, in this narrower sense, is any likelier than other people to approach non-scientific problems in an objective way? There is not much reason for thinking so. Take one simple test – the ability to withstand nationalism. It is often loosely said that “Science is international”, but in practice the scientific workers of all countries line up behind their own governments with fewer scruples than are felt by the writers and the artists. The German scientific community, as a whole, made no resistance to Hitler. Hitler may have ruined the long-term prospects of German Science, but there were still plenty of gifted men to do the necessary research on such things as synthetic oil, jet planes, rocket projectiles and the atomic bomb. Without them the German war machine could never have been built up… More sinister than this, a number of German scientists swallowed the monstrosity of “racial Science”. You can find some of the statements to which they set their names in Professor Brady’s The Spirit and Structure of German Fascism.

Orwell goes on to praise science as “a rational, sceptical, experimental habit of mind” and as “a method that can be used on any problem that one meets.” Orwell’s inclusive phrase, “any problem that one meets,” may at first sight suggest that he viewed science as the only road to truth, but he isn’t saying that. In endorsing science – defined in the broad sense – as a method of solving any and every problem, Orwell is not declaring that science alone can give us knowledge, or that science alone can lead us to truth – conclusions that would only follow if the set of truths that can be known coincided with the set of problems that can be solved.

Orwell concludes by suggesting that what young people really need to be taught is not lots of scientific facts, but critical thinking, and rhetorically asking what will happen to the prestige hitherto enjoyed by scientists, and to their claim to be wiser than the rest of us?

But does all this mean that the general public should not be more scientifically educated? On the contrary! All it means is that scientific education for the masses will do little good, and probably a lot of harm, if it simply boils down to more physics, more chemistry, more biology, etc., to the detriment of literature and history. Its probable effect on the average human being would be to narrow the range of his thoughts and make him more than ever contemptuous of such knowledge as he did not possess: and his political reactions would probably be somewhat less intelligent than those of an illiterate peasant who retained a few historical memories and a fairly sound aesthetic sense.

Clearly, scientific education ought to mean the implanting of a rational, sceptical, experimental habit of mind. It ought to mean acquiring a method – a method that can be used on any problem that one meets – and not simply piling up a lot of facts. Put it in those words, and the apologist of scientific education will usually agree. Press him further, ask him to particularise, and somehow it always turns out that scientific education means more attention to the sciences, in other words – more facts. The idea that Science means a way of looking at the world, and not simply a body of knowledge, is in practice strongly resisted. I think sheer professional jealousy is part of the reason for this. For if Science is simply a method or an attitude, so that anyone whose thought-processes are sufficiently rational can in some sense be described as a scientist – what then becomes of the enormous prestige now enjoyed by the chemist, the physicist, etc. and his claim to be somehow wiser than the rest of us?

What, indeed? Remember that, the next time someone asks you to believe in Darwinian evolution, or in the fixity of each person’s “sexuality” (whatever that woolly term means), or in dangerous anthropogenic global warming (as opposed to a modest rise of 1.5 degrees Celsius by 2100), based on the “overwhelming consensus” of scientists in the field.

Readers might also like to have a look at Barry Arrington’s 2010 post, Expert, Smexpert, which addresses the question of when it’s rational NOT to believe an expert.

Was Orwell right about science? What do readers think?

Comments
Obviously the stress of Alan's fatheadedness has affected his ability to do anything but attack- he is mad cow's disease writ large Joe
Alan Fox:
Sorry chubs, but I’m going to bow out on this thread.
LoL! Alan you are fatter than I will ever be! And of course you are bowing out-> you have nothing, as usual.
I don’t see any point in continuing.
Of course you don't-> you have nothing!
I make no impression on you,
That's because all you have are bald assertions and your opinions.
you none on me
That's because you are oblivious to facts and evidence. Joe
AF Do you understand that you have just played a low blow, a snide personality instead of addressing the issue you must face? At this stage, I have to expect such behaviour from you. You are associated with and have tried to justify malicious, invidious association of principled objection to gross sexual immorality and utter perversion -- including now the agenda to pervert the foundational social institution, the family -- with nazism, for me and for ever so many others. Remember, it was your ilk who dragged this into issues unrelated, in order to taint and polarise. For months, despite correction you have been enabling this, along with too many others at TSZ. (Onlookers, cf. my recent comment on this scarlet letter tactic being used by various extremists to rob people of livelihood, conscience and more, here. Note onward links, including this on the "my genes made me do it" pseudoscientific talking point.) Then, you have resorted to slanderous false accusations of fraud, by trying the outrageous tactic of characterising the concept, complex, specified information -- something as commonplace as posts in this thread -- as "bogus." I simply point out that you have also consistently -- and in the face of repeated. cogent corrections, willfully and so deceitfully -- used strawman distortions of design theory constructs and concepts, the better to portray and knock down a caricature falsely projected as though it were a true and fair view. In this, by and large, you have carried forward the sorts of willful misrepresentations too often resorted to by chief critics of design theory, such as the NCSE. The "Creationism in a cheap tuxedo" talking point used to motivate treating an issue that pivots on inductive reasoning on the past of origins in light of traces and reliable causes of such effects as though it were a suspect political ploy, is particularly evident. In short, you have been only too willing to enable and carry forward the Dawkins smear that would characterise those who beg to differ with his sophomoric evolutionary materialism, as ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked. I have had enough, once you crossed the further threshold of pretending as though the use of outing tactics, career busting and threats -- in my case targetting uninvolved members of my family including my children, is something you can easily brush aside and distance yourself from as though it is not an integral part of the pattern of ruthless and utterly uncivil tactics of the movement you have associated yourself with. The good cop bad cop enabling and manipulating game gets very old very fast, and just because you have not yourself participated in the worst features of the bad cop side, does not leave you innocent of enabling and egging on behaviour. The lot of you have zero credibility at this point, and step by step reveal a cold, reptilian ferocity driven by an underlying malice that needs to be faced for what it is: out of control cold anger rooted in an agenda that intends to get its way with our civilisation at any cost. An agenda that has subverted science through ideological distortions: a priori evolutionary materialism and scientism, in support of radical secularism and licence leading to undermining of education, law, policy, public morality and liberty -- yes, when people's livelihoods, careers and families are being unjustly threatened and when people's children are threatened [cf here on a case with the US NAS and NSTA which was used to embed into education a false and destructive radical redefinition of science], this is a threat to liberty -- itself. So, AF, I think you need to seriously think again about both what you have been directly doing and what you have been enabling and going along with in a perverse good cop bad cop game. (The same holds for EL et al.) To understand just how corrosive such tactics ultimately are, ask yourselves why it is that there are entire sub cultures and communities across our civilisation who do not trust ANYONE associated with law enforcement. A big part of the answer is the taint spread across all such because there have been too many rounds of enabling of bad cop behaviour by so called good cops. In the end, enablers cannot escape that taint, and right now that is what you are -- for cause -- facing. The taint of good cop bad cop corrupts the whole movement they are associated with, and ends up causing utter polarisation and breakdown. Just take a moment to understand how say Sewell's trials over addressing censorship and intimidation in academic publishing looks in the light of the patterns we have been seeing. Does anyone doubt that had he not been a long since established academic, he would have gone the way of Gonzalez et al, complete with blame the victim tactics? Do you BEGIN to understand the taint, the gangrene that is spreading? Good day KF kairosfocus
@Joe Sorry chubs, but I'm going to bow out on this thread. I don't see any point in continuing. I make no impression on you, you none on me and I doubt there are too many lurkers reading. Alan Fox
KF Obviously the stress of your son's health problems have affected your ability to think straight at the moment. Maybe later you can revisit what you wrote and reflect on it. I think it is best I follow Barry's advice and I'll ignore any further comments from you until you come back to reality. Alan Fox
KF Obviously the stress of your son's health problems have affected your ability to think straight at the moment. Maybe later you can revisit what you wrote and reflect on it. I think it is best I follow Barry's advice and I'll ignore any further comments from you until you come back to reality. Alan Fox
F/N: I need to underscore that in a world of lunatics, stalkers and ruthless ideologues, outing tactics are an immediate and direct threat on many levels. There are too many cases in point to illustrate that. That AF is trying to parse and pretend his way around this and to accuse me of being "closed minded" to take such tactics indulged by his side as dangerous and beyond all limits of decency and civility, is itself a further warning sign of just what he represents. Multiply that by his association with and attempt to justify tainting insinuations intended to associate me with nazism. Mix in his false accusations of intellectual fraud against the design theory project -- that is what "bogus" implies. His pretence at harmless, puzzled innocence is disgusting. kairosfocus
AF, I will first and foremost note that of course -- as expected -- you have been unable to cogently address fundamental and decisive matters regarding origins science on the merits, for a solid eight years of snipping and sniping in and around UD now. To be even more specific, as has been on the table for eleven months, on an open invitation, if you or any of your ilk had a serious and empirically well grounded, observationally based case that warrants the idea that blind chance and mechanical necessity in a warm little pond or the like gave rise to cell based life, and onwards body plans, then you would have seized upon the chance. This is a case where the dog that has refused to bark speaks loud volumes. If you had a real case, there would not have been any need to be enabling the sort of bully boy ugly tactics I have had to point out above and previously. But, by your own confession and actions you are a radical ideological evolutionist, who has set out to target design thought for ideological reasons. The attempted denial above, is simply and blatantly false. You have declared yourself to be pursuing an ideological agenda, viewing design theory as a threat to what you think of as science but is obviously in reality a priori materialist scientism, and associated ideological materialistic distortion of science education. You have acted in concert with others in and around UD for many years, and in particular actions such as involving yourself with TSZ and enabling them in slander, as I have had specific reason to highlight already show you to be up to your eyeballs in the activities of a ruthless ideological movement as an enabler. In short, you simply cannot be taken at face value, you are showing yourself involved with a pattern of habitual falsehood, evasions, distortions, misrepresentations and even slanders intended to take advantage of the naive onlooker who takes you and yo0ur ilk at your words. You have proved yourself a false accuser [I have not forgotten either your close association with and defense of a false insinuation of nazism, or your attempt to imply directly that the very simple and easily observable phenomenon of complex, specified information is a fraud, using the term "bogus"), a serial resorter to strawman misrepresenations, and now you have proved yourself an enabler of not only false accusations but ugly threats. I hope for your sake that you can wake up and realise what you have been doing, and make amends before it is too late. But, right now, I have to take it very seriously that you are part of a movement that has stooped to mafioso style thuggish outing tactics and threats against my uninvolved family -- including my wife and children, and that you have tried to indulge in evasions and pretences that all is innocent sweetness and light on your part. You have definitively crossed a very dangerous line, and from this point forth, I have every reason of basic prudence to treat you in that light. Good day KF kairosfocus
Alan Fox:
1. Prove what? That the amino-acid sequence is not paramount in the folding of functional proteins and in the the same conditions the folding will be reliably identical?
It proves that sequence alone does not account for its functional 3-D configuration.
I’ll agree that the system with actins and crystallins appears to exploit additional conformations but this is a very rare exception and one that doesn’t change the fact that the properties of proteins flow from the physics and chemistry.
Except there isn't any evidence that the proerties of proteins flow from physics and chemistry.
It does show the subtlety of natural selection at work so thanks for the information.
LoL!
Prions demonstrate that life is not perfect.
Nice non-sequitur.
The catalysed precipitation of amyloid in the human brain as a result of eating contaminated bovine material is hardly anything to do with a theory of “Intelligent Design” or a “Design” inference.
Followed by another non-sequitur. Prions are an example of heredity by contact. And if you were correct about the amino acid sequence determining the protein configuration, that shouldn't happen.
Genetic engineering? That’s a new one. How does this play?
It shouldn't be a new one- well to the ignorant it would be, and here you are. Go figure. With the rare excpetions, such as insulin, most polypeptides- that is spliced in DNA that was then transcribed and translated- did not form into their functioning proteins. Dr Sermonti goes over this in "Why Is A Fly Not A Horse?"- in it he has a chapter titled What Teaches Proteins Their Shapes? in which he presents evidence that refutes your unsupported claims of proteins beiing reducible to physics and chemistry. So Alan, do YOU have anything beyond your personal opinion to support your claims? Joe
Oops HTML error First Line is JoeG Alan Fox
>blockquote>Except protein conformation is NOT set by the sequence and this proves it. And genetic engineering also proves it as do prions. 1. Prove what? That the amino-acid sequence is not paramount in the folding of functional proteins and in the the same conditions the folding will be reliably identical? I'll agree that the system with actins and crystallins appears to exploit additional conformations but this is a very rare exception and one that doesn't change the fact that the properties of proteins flow from the physics and chemistry. It does show the subtlety of natural selection at work so thanks for the information. 2. Prions demonstrate that life is not perfect. The catalysed precipitation of amyloid in the human brain as a result of eating contaminated bovine material is hardly anything to do with a theory of "Intelligent Design" or a "Design" inference. 3. Genetic engineering? That's a new one. How does this play? Alan Fox
Alan Fox chokes:
The suggestion that production rate causes misfolding is speculative.
No, it is observed.
Interesting but peripheral to the main issue that in general, protein conformation is set by the sequence.
Except protein conformation is NOT set by the sequence and this proves it. And genetic engineering also proves it as do prions. As for 149, well that still stands as it is obvious that you have nothing. Thank you for that. Joe
Mr. Fox, sorry to interrupt any particular deception you were trying to convey to Joe with 'Gish gallop'. I can't seem to shake this belief in you that someday you may become reasonable. My bad! :) bornagain77
Mr. Fox, proteins being context dependent towards specific functionality in a given setting is very antagonistic towards the ‘bottom up’ reductive materialism of neo-Darwinism and is very conducive to a ‘top down’ approach of Intelligent Design.
The 'top-down' approach of ID sounds very apt. I see you want to stray off the immediate point again to discus cellular transport systems and cellular embryology and evo-devo. Sort of Gish gallop commenting. Alan Fox
Mr. Fox, proteins being context dependent towards specific functionality in a given setting is very antagonistic towards the 'bottom up' reductive materialism of neo-Darwinism and is very conducive to a 'top down' approach of Intelligent Design. Talbott puts the problem for neo-Darwinists this way: HOW BIOLOGISTS LOST SIGHT OF THE MEANING OF LIFE — AND ARE NOW STARING IT IN THE FACE - Stephen L. Talbott - May 2012 Excerpt: “If you think air traffic controllers have a tough job guiding planes into major airports or across a crowded continental airspace, consider the challenge facing a human cell trying to position its proteins”. A given cell, he notes, may make more than 10,000 different proteins, and typically contains more than a billion protein molecules at any one time. “Somehow a cell must get all its proteins to their correct destinations — and equally important, keep these molecules out of the wrong places”. And further: “It’s almost as if every mRNA [an intermediate between a gene and a corresponding protein] coming out of the nucleus knows where it’s going” (Travis 2011),,, The question is indeed, then, “How does the organism meaningfully dispose of all its molecules, getting them to the right places and into the right interactions?” The same sort of question can be asked of cells, for example in the growing embryo, where literal streams of cells are flowing to their appointed places, differentiating themselves into different types as they go, and adjusting themselves to all sorts of unpredictable perturbations — even to the degree of responding appropriately when a lab technician excises a clump of them from one location in a young embryo and puts them in another, where they may proceed to adapt themselves in an entirely different and proper way to the new environment. It is hard to quibble with the immediate impression that form (which is more idea-like than thing-like) is primary, and the material particulars subsidiary. Two systems biologists, one from the Max Delbrück Center for Molecular Medicine in Germany and one from Harvard Medical School, frame one part of the problem this way: "The human body is formed by trillions of individual cells. These cells work together with remarkable precision, first forming an adult organism out of a single fertilized egg, and then keeping the organism alive and functional for decades. To achieve this precision, one would assume that each individual cell reacts in a reliable, reproducible way to a given input, faithfully executing the required task. However, a growing number of studies investigating cellular processes on the level of single cells revealed large heterogeneity even among genetically identical cells of the same cell type. (Loewer and Lahav 2011)",,, http://www.netfuture.org/2012/May1012_184.html#2 bornagain77
Thanks for the links, Phil, most of which I've already seen, though the "Gene Sharing and Evolution" book, reviewed by Francisco Ayala looks interesting. How does this relate to the inherent tendency of proteins to fold in particular ways in particular circumstances? We seem to have drifted off the comment of Joe's 149 and his claim to be able to make adesign inference. Alan Fox
Mr. Fox, Genes Code For Many Layers of Information - They May Have Just Discovered Another - Cornelius Hunter - January 21, 2013 Excerpt: “protein multifunctionality is more the rule than the exception.” In fact, “Perhaps all proteins perform many different functions by employing as many different mechanisms." http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2013/01/genes-code-for-many-layers-of.html http://www.fasebj.org/content/23/7/2022.full Explaining how a protein can perform multiple roles - Cell Biology - December 18, 2009 Excerpt: It’s been known for more than a decade that some cell proteins can carry out multiple functions. For example, it was discovered in 1999 that the protein TyrRS (explained shortly) participated not only in the building of enzymes, but also could function to stimulate the growth of blood vessels. Discovering that the same protein could perform very different roles opened one of the great new chapters in molecular biology. http://scitechstory.com/2009/12/18/explaining-how-a-protein-can-perform-multiple-roles/ Human Genes: Alternative Splicing (For Proteins) Far More Common Than Thought: Excerpt: two different forms of the same protein, known as isoforms, can have different, even completely opposite functions. For example, one protein may activate cell death pathways while its close relative promotes cell survival. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/11/081102134623.htm bornagain77
On synonymous mutations. Yes I see there is new work about the rate of synthesis of proteins being dependent on the level of aminoacyl tRNA synthetase present in the cytoplasm.In some cases a synonymous mutation will reduce the rate of production of a protein because the aa tRNA synthetase for the codon synonym is less abundant. The suggestion that production rate causes misfolding is speculative. Though I'll concede that the work on actin is convincing. Though, actins, being the core proteins in cytokinesis and muscle contractions are inherently dynamic. Interesting but peripheral to the main issue that in general, protein conformation is set by the sequence. Alan Fox
The problem with arguing with Alan is the same as the problem with arguing with Gregory. If they cannot rebut a point you make, they will simply ignore it. There must be innumerable incontestable arguments shooting down their ones in flames, but you're wasting your energy making cogent arguments on these threads. The only ones they will engage with, however, are those they feel they CAN rebut (inevitably, erroneously), so it's just one more lamentable effect of having to dispute serious science or metaphysics in a form of asymmetric warfare, with dunderheads, who base their arguments on hypotheses that are too insane to be risible. Axel
From my last link:
A mutation in a human gene that does not change the resulting amino acid can nevertheless change a protein's function, according to an online report from Science. The research marks the first time that the phenomenon has been confirmed in mammals. "The habit we all have of disregarding nucleotide changes that don't change protein sequence may not be a good one," coauthor Michael Gottesman at the National Cancer Institute in Bethesda, Md., told The Scientist. "This may be a generalizable phenomenon that may lead to changes in function we haven't been thinking about."
And it is very telling that Alan was ignorant of this. Heck IDists have known it for years- it is in the book "The Design of Life" Joe
LoL!@ Aaln Fox- Google is my friend and you are ignorant: I used "silent mutations and disease"- Synonymous (“Silent”) Mutations in Health, Disease, and Personalized Medicine: Review Actions speak louder: Predicted mechanisms by which silent mutations cause disease "Silent" mutations are not always silent- Mutations leading to identical amino acid sequences can change protein folding and function Joe
Mr. Fox, should you not have a sensible argument to address in the first place? Everything you put forward dissolves into absurdity. Why is this? I thought you atheists were the 'rational' ones? Why is everything you put forward thus found to be irrational in its basis? bornagain77
Synonymous Codons: Another Gene Expression Regulation Mechanism - September 2010 Excerpt: There are 64 possible triplet codons in the DNA code, but only 20 amino acids they produce. As one can see, some amino acids can be coded by up to six “synonyms” of triplet codons: e.g., the codes AGA, AGG, CGA, CGC, CGG, and CGU will all yield arginine when translated by the ribosome. If the same amino acid results, what difference could the synonymous codons make? The researchers found that alternate spellings might affect the timing of translation in the ribosome tunnel, and slight delays could influence how the polypeptide begins its folding. This, in turn, might affect what chemical tags get put onto the polypeptide in the post-translational process. In the case of actin, the protein that forms transport highways for muscle and other things, the researchers found that synonymous codons produced very different functional roles for the “isoform” proteins that resulted in non-muscle cells,,, In their conclusion, they repeated, “Whatever the exact mechanism, the discovery of Zhang et al. that synonymous codon changes can so profoundly change the role of a protein adds a new level of complexity to how we interpret the genetic code.”,,, http://www.creationsafaris.com/crev201009.htm#20100919a bornagain77
@ Joe I have stuff to do and won't be back for a while. Take the opportunity to construct a sensible response. Alan Fox
JoeG claims:
Heck even alleged “silent” mutations can cause proteins to misfold even though the amino acid sequence is the same.
Alan Fox
Alan- just google it- silent mutations that cause defects
Come on, Joe. You made the claim. (Just a hint - Google is not your friend on this one.) Alan Fox
BTW Alan, genetic engineering uses known proteins- insulin was/ is a known protein. Unfortunately it was one of the few that worked the way scientists wanted.
Do try to stay on topic, Joe. You were about to tell me about silent mutations and the "screwing up" of proteins “even though the amino acid sequence is the same”. Alan Fox
Alan- just google it- silent mutations that cause defects Joe
BTW Alan, genetic engineering uses known proteins- insulin was/ is a known protein. Unfortunately it was one of the few that worked the way scientists wanted. Joe
Or didn’t you know that they can screw up the final protein?
No, Joe. I'm quite surprised to learn that. Especially as you say "even though the amino acid sequence is the same". Please enlighten me. Alan Fox
Mr. Fox, in your haste to list of things necessary for protein folding I noticed you neglected, once again, to list the recent breakthroughs in science that have firmly placed proteins (assembly and folding) in the world of 'non-local' quantum physics. Is this blatant omission on your part due to your a priori atheistic/materialistic bias? Or are you just being willingly deceitful again? Looking Beyond Space and Time to Cope With Quantum Theory – (Oct. 28, 2012) Excerpt: “Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them,” says Nicolas Gisin, Professor at the University of Geneva, Switzerland,,, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/10/121028142217.htm Myosin Coherence Excerpt: Quantum physics and molecular biology are two disciplines that have evolved relatively independently. However, recently a wealth of evidence has demonstrated the importance of quantum mechanics for biological systems and thus a new field of quantum biology is emerging. Living systems have mastered the making and breaking of chemical bonds, which are quantum mechanical phenomena. Absorbance of frequency specific radiation (e.g. photosynthesis and vision), conversion of chemical energy into mechanical motion (e.g. ATP cleavage) and single electron transfers through biological polymers (e.g. DNA or proteins) are all quantum mechanical effects. http://www.energetic-medicine.net/bioenergetic-articles/articles/63/1/Myosin-Coherence/Page1.html Persistent dynamic entanglement from classical motion: How bio-molecular machines can generate non-trivial quantum states - November 2011 Excerpt: We also show how conformational changes can be used by an elementary machine to generate entanglement even in unfavorable conditions. In biological systems, similar mechanisms could be exploited by more complex molecular machines or motors. http://arxiv.org/abs/1111.2126 etc.. etc.. bornagain77
For Alan Fox- Silent mutations are changes to the DNA that still code for the same amino acid. However not all silent mutations are equal as some cause the final protein to be deformed, ie not the configuration of the normal type. That is how and why alleged silent mutations can and do cause problems. Joe
Alan Fox:
I assert that known proteins will reliably assume specific conformations based on sequence, pH, salinity, temperature, electrostatics, hydrogen bonding, hydrophobic/hydrophilic attraction, quaternary conformation.
Assert all you want- you still don't have any evidence to support your tripe. Heck even alleged “silent” mutations can cause proteins to misfold even though the amino acid sequence is the same.
I think you need to look carefully about what you have written, here, Joe.
I have and I take it you cannot grasp it.
I’ll let you have a go at correcting it in case it is just a case of careless phrasing.
It's fine the way it is. Do you know what a silent mutation is, Alan? Or didn't you know that they can screw up the final protein? Joe
AF, you just excluded yourself from civil discussion. My wife and children were subjected to outing and mafiosio style threats, which have been cheered on by rthe3 movement you are a part of, with nary an objection. You now wish to pretend that to take such threats seriously when they target my own family is unjustified. Sorry, you just showed your cold hearted hatred of people you disagree with. No wonder you were willing to associate yourself with the projection of false accusations and worse. The game is over, AF. You have gone beyond all limits of civility, and from now on, I will take you at that standard which you have earned. KF
I am not part of any movement. I have not made nor enabled any "mafioso-style threats" to you or your family by any means. I am unaware of any credible physical threat made by any person (associated with me - certainly not) to you or your family. And just for the record, I don't hate you. I am puzzled and disappointed to note your closed-mindedness and prejudice on many issues but that can possibly be rectified, which is why I still sometimes attempt to enter into dialogue with you. Alan Fox
Oops missed out some words I should have said: ...prior prediction of the properties of a novel protein solely from its sequence is a task beyond the resources of existing technology. Alan Fox
..genetic engineering has been a bust because the polypeptides did NOT reliably fold into specific shapes.
I assert that known proteins will reliably assume specific conformations based on sequence, pH, salinity, temperature, electrostatics, hydrogen bonding, hydrophobic/hydrophilic attraction, quaternary conformation. The issue is that nobody can reliably predict the property of a novel protein in advance as yet. The only way to find out what a novel protein will be like is to synthesize it and see; a task beyond the resources of existing technology.
Heck even alleged “silent” mutations can cause proteins to misfold even though the amino acid sequence is the same.
I think you need to look carefully about what you have written, here, Joe. I'll let you have a go at correcting it in case it is just a case of careless phrasing. Alan Fox
And more bluffing bluster:
What makes proteins fold into beta sheets? Physics and chemistry.
Evidence please.
How do chaperone molecules do their work (prevention of aggregation and prevention against heat-shock)? Physics and chemistry.
Evidence please. Also your position can't even explain chaperones! Joe
F/N 4: Onlookers, kindly note this lecture on the ongoing slaughter of the dissidents enabled by the ilk of AF and ever so many more. KF kairosfocus
AF, you just excluded yourself from civil discussion. My wife and children were subjected to outing and mafiosio style threats, which have been cheered on by rthe3 movement you are a part of, with nary an objection. You now wish to pretend that to take such threats seriously when they target my own family is unjustified. Sorry, you just showed your cold hearted hatred of people you disagree with. No wonder you were willing to associate yourself with the projection of false accusations and worse. The game is over, AF. You have gone beyond all limits of civility, and from now on, I will take you at that standard which you have earned. KF kairosfocus
Alan Fox- all bluff and bluster and STILL no evidence to support any of his tripe.
Proteins reliably fold into specific shapes because of their inherent chemical and physical properties...
Evidence please. Ya see genetic engineering has been a bust because the polypeptides did NOT reliably fold into specific shapes. Heck even alleged "silent" mutations can cause proteins to misfold even though the amino acid sequence is the same. IOW Alan you don't have a clue and it shows. Joe
KF @ 204
PRIONS
What makes proteins fold into beta sheets? Physics and chemistry. How do chaperone molecules do their work (prevention of aggregation and prevention against heat-shock)? Physics and chemistry. Or are there tiny, tiny little designers in hard hats manipulating, steering, screwing things together? Alan Fox
AF: You evidently don’t care to remember that you are involved in a movement where there were attempts to hold MY children and MY wife hostage by mafiosio threats that unlike you in your comfortable scoffing, I have had to take very seriously indeed. Shame on you !!!!!!! KF
Preposterous paranoid piffle. I am involved in no movements. It is your paranoid perception building (I think you are referring to a particular comment by a particular commenter in a forum where I would certainly not have any editorial influence) pixels on a screen to a credible physical threat. It's preposterous. Alan Fox
Mr. Fox, It would seem that when you claim that protein folding belongs strictly to the would of classical physics, i.e. "given sequence, temperature, pH, ion balance in an aqueous medium it will happen", that in your haste to defend all things Darwinian you forgot to read the last part of the cite you were so quick to dismiss: Their astonishing result is that this quantum transition model fits the folding curves of 15 different proteins and even explains the difference in folding and unfolding rates of the same proteins. That’s a significant breakthrough. Luo and Lo’s equations amount to the first universal laws of protein folding. That’s the equivalent in biology to something like the thermodynamic laws in physics. Now all you would have to do to keep this within the classical reductive materialism of neo-Darwinism is mathematically prove that protein folding belongs to the world of classical physics instead of quantum physics! :) Something tells me that you will not succeed in explaining quantum entanglement within proteins to a classical worldview: Closing the last Bell-test loophole for photons - Jun 11, 2013 Excerpt: that confirmed quantum entanglement to nearly 70 standard deviations.,,, http://phys.org/news/2013-06-bell-test-loophole-photons.html The following articles give us a small glimpse as to what it truly means for entanglement to be confirmed to an order of '70 standard deviations': Standard deviation Excerpt: Particle physics uses a standard of "5 sigma" for the declaration of a discovery.[3] At five-sigma there is only one chance in nearly two million that a random fluctuation would yield the result. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_deviation#Particle_physics SSDD: a 22 sigma event is consistent with the physics of fair coins? - June 23, 2013 Excerpt: So 500 coins heads is (500-250)/11 = 22 standard deviations (22 sigma) from expectation! These numbers are so extreme, it’s probably inappropriate to even use the normal distribution’s approximation of the binomial distribution, and hence “22 sigma” just becomes a figure of speech in this extreme case… https://uncommondescent.com/mathematics/ssdd-a-22-sigma-event-is-consistent-with-the-physics-of-fair-coins/ bornagain77
AF: You evidently don't care to remember that you are involved in a movement where there were attempts to hold MY children and MY wife hostage by mafiosio threats that unlike you in your comfortable scoffing, I have had to take very seriously indeed. Shame on you !!!!!!! KF kairosfocus
F/N 3: On the way out the door, my eye was caught by the above ill-informed dismissal of the challenge of protein folding. I give a one word comment: PRIONS Think about what that implies, courtesy mad cow disease and the significance of chaperoned folding of proteins. KF kairosfocus
Let me simply note that organising work implies the orderly, force-driven arrangement of components in accord with requisites of specific function, and this does not change whether we are discussing how a Toyota car assembly plant works, the building of a home brew computer, or the nanotech [sic] of the living cell.
I hardly know where to begin. KF, you may have a masters in electrical engineering but your ignorance of cell chemistry appears profound.If you can show where the tiny builders in hard hats are in the cells of living organisms, then I will concede you have a point. Heck, just one tiny builder will do as an example. Alan Fox
It seems that AF and other enablers of expelling, outing, attempts to hold innocent family members (including CHILDREN) hostage and the like go ballistic when the historical reminder that there comes a day when the defences crumble and a once dominant and domineeringly abusive ideology collapses. Then, there is an accounting, not only for those who actively engaged in thuggish tactics or worse, but also for the enablers who were part of the support networks or culture that allowed such bully-boy fascist thuggishness to proceed.
Do you ever read what you write? You are now accusing me of enabling people to take children hostage? I do cut you plenty of leeway but come on, man, this is absurd even by your overblown standards. Alan Fox
F/N 3: Just as a simple parting point, AF. Brownian motion is a random motion triggered by particles participating in the chaotic thermal agitation in the environment. It (or rather the underlying dynamic) is responsible for diffusion and other random walk scattering, DIS-organising processes. That is, your attempt to appeal to such to explain complex specific functional organisation is inadvertently revealing of just that appeal to anything that seems remotely plausible to the eye of darwinist faith. It seems obvious you have never seriously read or understood my discussion here of exactly this point in my always linked, or its context from here on on the implications of the dynamics behind the second law of thermodynamics. Let me simply note that organising work implies the orderly, force-driven arrangement of components in accord with requisites of specific function, and this does not change whether we are discussing how a Toyota car assembly plant works, the building of a home brew computer, or the nanotech of the living cell. That you appeal to forces that are overwhelmingly forces of disorganisation to try to explain away the challenges of organisation is utterly -- sadly -- revealing, and that after eight years hanging around UD to snip, snipe and object. I could go on at length, but the point is made, the links give enough food for thought and a busy day beckons. KF kairosfocus
The puzzle is how proteins do this so quickly when they have so many possible configurations to choose from.
Rampant anthropomorphism. Proteins reliably fold into specific shapes because of their inherent chemical and physical properties; given sequence, temperature, pH, ion balance in an aqueous medium it will happen. Choice, my eye. Alan Fox
as to: "I’m sure she has better things to do than concern herself with all the minutiae of every molecule in every cell in every organism." If I wanted Theodicy I would read Origin of Species by Darwin. I could care less what your personal opinion is as to what God would and would not do in this universe and only care about what the scientific evidence says, and along that line we find 'non-local' beyond space and time, quantum entanglement all over molecular biology: Physicists Discover Quantum Law of Protein Folding – February 22, 2011 Quantum mechanics finally explains why protein folding depends on temperature in such a strange way. Excerpt: First, a little background on protein folding. Proteins are long chains of amino acids that become biologically active only when they fold into specific, highly complex shapes. The puzzle is how proteins do this so quickly when they have so many possible configurations to choose from. To put this in perspective, a relatively small protein of only 100 amino acids can take some 10^100 different configurations. If it tried these shapes at the rate of 100 billion a second, it would take longer than the age of the universe to find the correct one. Just how these molecules do the job in nanoseconds, nobody knows.,,, Their astonishing result is that this quantum transition model fits the folding curves of 15 different proteins and even explains the difference in folding and unfolding rates of the same proteins. That's a significant breakthrough. Luo and Lo's equations amount to the first universal laws of protein folding. That’s the equivalent in biology to something like the thermodynamic laws in physics. http://www.technologyreview.com/view/423087/physicists-discover-quantum-law-of-protein/ INFORMATION AND ENERGETICS OF QUANTUM FLAGELLA MOTOR Hiroyuki Matsuura, Nobuo Noda, Kazuharu Koide Tetsuya Nemoto and Yasumi Ito Excerpt from bottom page 7: Note that the physical principle of flagella motor does not belong to classical mechanics, but to quantum mechanics. When we can consider applying quantum physics to flagella motor, we can find out the shift of energetic state and coherent state. http://www2.ktokai-u.ac.jp/~shi/el08-046.pdf Coherent Intrachain energy migration at room temperature - Elisabetta Collini and Gregory Scholes - University of Toronto - Science, 323, (2009), pp. 369-73 Excerpt: The authors conducted an experiment to observe quantum coherence dynamics in relation to energy transfer. The experiment, conducted at room temperature, examined chain conformations, such as those found in the proteins of living cells. Neighbouring molecules along the backbone of a protein chain were seen to have coherent energy transfer. Where this happens quantum decoherence (the underlying tendency to loss of coherence due to interaction with the environment) is able to be resisted, and the evolution of the system remains entangled as a single quantum state. http://www.scimednet.org/quantum-coherence-living-cells-and-protein/ Looking Beyond Space and Time to Cope With Quantum Theory – (Oct. 28, 2012) Excerpt: To derive their inequality, which sets up a measurement of entanglement between four particles, the researchers considered what behaviours are possible for four particles that are connected by influences that stay hidden and that travel at some arbitrary finite speed. Mathematically (and mind-bogglingly), these constraints define an 80-dimensional object. The testable hidden influence inequality is the boundary of the shadow this 80-dimensional shape casts in 44 dimensions. The researchers showed that quantum predictions can lie outside this boundary, which means they are going against one of the assumptions. Outside the boundary, either the influences can’t stay hidden, or they must have infinite speed.,,, The remaining option is to accept that (quantum) influences must be infinitely fast,,, “Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them,” says Nicolas Gisin, Professor at the University of Geneva, Switzerland,,, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/10/121028142217.htm bornagain77
F/N 2: On tours of shame. It seems that AF and other enablers of expelling, outing, attempts to hold innocent family members (including CHILDREN) hostage and the like go ballistic when the historical reminder that there comes a day when the defences crumble and a once dominant and domineeringly abusive ideology collapses. Then, there is an accounting, not only for those who actively engaged in thuggish tactics or worse, but also for the enablers who were part of the support networks or culture that allowed such bully-boy fascist thuggishness to proceed. (And, onlookers, the list of thuggish behaviours listed above is something I know from personal experience with Darwinist thugs.) Yes, that picture of a well dressed, well coiffed respectable "Aryan" blonde woman averting her head in distress from the sight of victims of mass murder as she was frog marched from Munich on a tour of nearby Buchenwald concentration camp is an ugly picture. It is also an apt illustration of what happens when those who indulged in denial, scapegoating and enabling are forced to confront the consequences of their enabling behaviour. But we are not nazis and have not engaged in atrocities! (Where of course -- for months now -- I have been falsely accused of being a nazi with the enabling of AF, EL and others; the precise context in which I have spoken to what happened to enablers of evil nigh on seventy years ago now. For the thought crime of having principled objections to the radical homosexualisation of our civilisation. And, as a black man, I can tell you that the attempt to hijack concerns over racism to make principled objections to homosexualism take on the taint of racism is an outrage that the ghosts of millions victims of the middle passage object to. Cf here on the new blasphemy accusation, and here on the my genes made me do it notion [at least, read the introductory chapter], in case you do not understand that there can be and are principled objections to homosexualisation -- itself a grim sign of what has gone wrong in our civilisation and of just how ruthlessly we are being manipulated by radicals in power, following these marketing of evil tactics. Which, BTW, not coincidentally, is one of many decadent and destructive trends that are being enabled by the inherent amorality and radical relativism of evolutionary materialism. An undermining of core values and institutions that undergird public morality and justice, as Plato warned against in The Laws Bk X 2350 years ago. As in, ask yourself: what happens when ideologies that imply that "the highest right is might" seize the commanding heights of influence and decision-making in a civilisation?) Neither was our well dressed lady an outright Nazi war criminal, or she would have been in a cell on war crimes charges. She was an enabler, one of many brought to be a witness to the horrible reality that her enabling, along with that of millions of others, had helped sustain. And so, she was on a tour of shame, in the face of exhibits of the reality created by surviving victims. As the video of the newsreel informs. (Onlookers, kindly cf. here for what AF does not want you to ponder.) Now, let us refresh our minds from Provine's statement at that U Tenn Darwin Day event of 1998, so we can all understand -- and no KN, flicking this off as if it is of no account will not be acceptable given what is at stake and is happening . . . -- just what is at stake in our civilisation thanks to a priori materialistic, scientistic, rabid, self-referentially absurd secularism:
Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent . . . . The first 4 implications are so obvious to modern naturalistic evolutionists that I will spend little time defending them. Human free will, however, is another matter. Even evolutionists have trouble swallowing that implication. I will argue that humans are locally determined systems that make choices. They have, however, no free will . . .
Let us spell it out a little bit. No free will exists. That means, we are incapable of genuinely responsible decision or choice. We are -- on this ideology -- simply meat robots playing out the in-stamped blind and a-rational a-moral programming of genetic chance and necessity multiplied by whatever accidents of social and cultural conditioning. Reason is dead, moral responsibility is dead, man is dead. On such premises, we are, whether we want to openly acknowledge it or not [and whether we are willing to face the reductions implicit in more subtle forms of evolutionary materialism], pretty much as Crick put it in his The Astonishing Hypothesis, 1994:
. . . that "You", your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. As Lewis Carroll's Alice might have phrased: "You're nothing but a pack of neurons." This hypothesis is so alien to the ideas of most people today that it can truly be called astonishing.
This is absurd, as it is self referential and self undermining. If we were indeed like this not even Crick could know or warrant knowledge or reason reliably. This ideology is intellectually suicidal, and morally suicidal; turning us into cosmic detritus of no more value than a bit of rubbish cast up on a beach by the blind force of the waves, drifting with no purpose or capability to make responsible and genuinely free choice. But just because something is absurd does not mean that it cannot have great influence and power. Just, -- as the ghosts of the victims of 53 million abortions in just the USA since the radically secularist decision of 1973 warn us -- that influence and power will be inevitably absurd, self destructive and dangerous. In that light, I again remind us to soberly reflect on Plato's warning, which is fresher than next week's headlines:
Ath. . . . [[The avant garde philosophers and poets, c. 360 BC] say that . . . The elements are severally moved by chance and some inherent force according to certain affinities among them-of hot with cold, or of dry with moist, or of soft with hard, and according to all the other accidental admixtures of opposites which have been formed by necessity. After this fashion and in this manner the whole heaven has been created, and all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only. [[In short, evolutionary materialism premised on chance plus necessity acting without intelligent guidance on primordial matter is hardly a new or a primarily "scientific" view! Notice also, the trichotomy of causal factors: (a) chance/accident, (b) mechanical necessity of nature, (c) art or intelligent design and direction.] . . . . [[Thus, they hold that t]he Gods exist not by nature, but by art, and by the laws of states, which are different in different places, according to the agreement of those who make them; and that the honourable is one thing by nature and another thing by law, and that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.- [[Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT. (Cf. here for Locke's views and sources on a very different base for grounding liberty as opposed to license and resulting anarchistic "every man does what is right in his own eyes" chaos leading to tyranny. )] These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might [[ Evolutionary materialism leads to the promotion of amorality], and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [[Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality "naturally" leads to continual contentions and power struggles; cf. dramatisation here], these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is, to live in real dominion over others [[such amoral factions, if they gain power, "naturally" tend towards ruthless tyranny], and not in legal subjection to them.
In short, evolutionary materialism, once it has seized the imaginations of so-called leading lights, has an inner dynamic that undermines knowledge, reason, reasonableness, mutuality, respect, restraint, justice, law and morality, opening the doors wide to ruthless factions and to the assumption that might and manipulation make 'right' nihilism and chaos, ending in tyranny. Resemblance to what is going on in our civilisation as we speak is NOT coincidental. Hence, the importance of spotting and spotlighting what is going on to give warning. And hence also the umbrage taken at the preview of the coming REAL* tour of shame by those caught red handed in the spot beam. KF *PS: I don't usually do this here at UD, but we need to face some sobering, eternally freighted issues linked to what is going on in our civilisation:
Ac 17:30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, 31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.” [with over 500 witnesses, none of whom could be broken, not be dungeon, fire, sword or worse] Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to [men], because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,[g] in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. [--> whether carved stone idols in temples surrounded by myths or icons in museums, magazines, documentary videos, glossy magazines and textbooks backed up by scientistic ideology makes but little difference] 24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature [--> this includes worshiping oneself in self-aggrandising pride] rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! 2 Thess 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. Eph 4:17 Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. 18 They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart. 19 They have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity. 20 But that is not the way you learned Christ!— 21 assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, 22 to put off your old self,[f] which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, 23 and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, 24 and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness. [ESV]
kairosfocus
as to: "OK. Take a bow, type III secretory pore." Surely you are not this dense! Presenting the Positive Case for Design - Casey Luskin - February 14, 2012 Excerpt: If you think of the flagellum like an outboard motor, and the T3SS like a squirt gun, the parts they share are the ones that allow them to be mounted on the bracket of a boat. But the parts that give them their distinct functions -- propulsion or injection -- are not shared. I said that thinking you can explain the flagellum simply by referring me to the T3SS is like saying if you can account for the origin of the mounting-bracket on the back of you boat, then you've explained the origin of the motor too -- which obviously makes no sense. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/02/at_north_dakota056351.html "One fact in favour of the flagellum-first view is that bacteria would have needed propulsion before they needed T3SSs, which are used to attack cells that evolved later than bacteria. Also, flagella are found in a more diverse range of bacterial species than T3SSs. ‘The most parsimonious explanation is that the T3SS arose later," Howard Ochman - Biochemist - New Scientist (Feb 16, 2008) bornagain77
Oops to not yo Alan Fox
Phil @ 193 God designed physics and all the emergent properties that combine yo result in self-organisation. I'm sure she has better things to do than concern herself with all the minutiae of every molecule in every cell in every organism. Otherwise imagine how boring it must be to keep doing exactly the same thing in exactly the same way, over and over and over. How much more powerful to get the molecules to do the work for you! Alan Fox
as to: "Nope. The (bacterial cell is a small encosed space containing an aqueous medium, not a factory floor. Molecules whizz around – it’s called Crownian motion – and constantly bump into each other." You really need to get out more and read something else besides Darwinian propaganda: No, Scientists in Darwin's Day Did Not Grasp the Complexity of the Cell; Not Even Close - Casey Luskin - June 6, 2013 Excerpt: We have always underestimated cells. Undoubtedly we still do today. But at least we are no longer as naïve as we were when I was a graduate student in the 1960s. Then, most of us viewed cells as containing a giant set of second-order reactions: molecules A and B were thought to diffuse freely, randomly colliding with each other to produce molecule AB -- and likewise for the many other molecules that interact with each other inside a cell. This seemed reasonable because, as we had learned from studying physical chemistry, motions at the scale of molecules are incredibly rapid. Consider an enzyme, for example. If its substrate molecule is present at a concentration of 0.5mM,which is only one substrate molecule for every 105 water molecules, the enzyme's active site will randomly collide with about 500,000 molecules of substrate per second. And a typical globular protein will be spinning to and fro, turning about various axes at rates corresponding to a million rotations per second. But, as it turns out, we can walk and we can talk because the chemistry that makes life possible is much more elaborate and sophisticated than anything we students had ever considered. Proteins make up most of the dry mass of a cell. But instead of a cell dominated by randomly colliding individual protein molecules, we now know that nearly every major process in a cell is carried out by assemblies of 10 or more protein molecules. And, as it carries out its biological functions, each of these protein assemblies interacts with several other large complexes of proteins. Indeed, the entire cell can be viewed as a factory that contains an elaborate network of interlocking assembly lines, each of which is composed of a set of large protein machines." (Bruce Alberts, "The Cell as a Collection of Protein Machines: Preparing the Next Generation of Molecular Biologists," Cell, 92 (February 6, 1998): 291-294 (emphases added).) http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/06/did_scientists_072871.html bornagain77
"Nope. Molecules self assemble." REALLY??? Why don't you go ahead a 'self-assemble' me a bacterial flagellum from scratch then??? “I build molecules for a living, I can’t begin to tell you how difficult that job is. I stand in awe of God because of what he has done through his creation. Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God." James Tour – one of the leading nano-tech engineers in the world - Strobel, Lee (2000), The Case For Faith, p. 111 Top Ten Most Cited Chemist in the World Knows That Evolution Doesn’t Work – James Tour, Phd. – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCyAOCesHv0 bornagain77
Oops Brownian not Crownian. New glasses on my shopping list today! Alan Fox
Typically, only C1 is discussed in the usual exaptation arguments. But plainly, all five criteria must be simultaneously met at one go or the system will not function and will be selected against. By the force of the very dynamic of filtering variations on CURRENT performance that is being appealed to.
This earns a commendation as a neatly executed strawman with personal incredulity double twist. C1. OK. Take a bow, type III secretory pore. C2. Nope. So long as a mutation is not deleterious it can persist due to drift. A subsequent mutation elsewhere and voilà. C3. Nope. The (bacterial cell is a small encosed space containing an aqueous medium, not a factory floor. Molecules whizz around - it's called Crownian motion - and constantly bump into each other. C4. Nope. Molecules self assemble. Electrostatics, hyrogen bonding, hydrophobic/hydrophilic attraction, quaternary conformation. Look at membrane bilipid layers for a good example of self-organisation. C5. "...are put together in the right order..."? By very tiny designers in hard hats presumably? Nope, self assembly again. Molecules of the right shape and properties will stick together in a consistent way. Alan Fox
Yet another display station for the upcoming tour of shame.
You just wouldn't let it lie, would you! Alan Fox
kf as to: "Any thing that is remotely plausible to the eye of Darwinist faith — and yes, this is ideological commitment we are dealing with — will do." Amen! Darwinists seem to think that if they can merely imagine it happening then it must have happened. Or as Dr. Behe puts it: "Grand Darwinian claims rest on undisciplined imagination" Dr. Michael Behe - 29:24 mark of following video http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=s6XAXjiyRfM#t=1762s Or as Plantinga puts the philosophical formulation of their argument: Darwinism Not Proved Impossible Therefore It Must Be True - Plantinga http://www.metacafe.com/watch/10285716/ Better known as Dumb and Dumber 'There's a Chance' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX5jNnDMfxA +++++++++++++ Nobel Prize-Winning Physicist Wolfgang Pauli on the Empirical Problems with Neo-Darwinism - Casey Luskin - February 27, 2012 Excerpt: "In discussions with biologists I met large difficulties when they apply the concept of 'natural selection' in a rather wide field, without being able to estimate the probability of the occurrence in a empirically given time of just those events, which have been important for the biological evolution. Treating the empirical time scale of the evolution theoretically as infinity they have then an easy game, apparently to avoid the concept of purposesiveness. While they pretend to stay in this way completely 'scientific' and 'rational,' they become actually very irrational, particularly because they use the word 'chance', not any longer combined with estimations of a mathematically defined probability, in its application to very rare single events more or less synonymous with the old word 'miracle.'" Wolfgang Pauli (pp. 27-28) - http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/02/nobel_prize-win056771.html “nobody to date has yet found a demarcation criterion according to which Darwin can be described as scientific” – Imre Lakatos (November 9, 1922 – February 2, 1974) a philosopher of mathematics and science, quote as stated in 1973 LSE Scientific Method Lecture bornagain77
F/N: I should comment on how a serious issue is belittled by the dismissive and fallacious term "appeal to PERSONAL incredulity." The real issue is warrant, and the point that irreducibly complex functional structures are not going to be open to creation by slow incremental change is a very reasonable conclusion. (Cf. an earlier, 101 level discussion in the ID Foundations, here.) Let us remind ourselves on what makes a functional entity IC:
What type of biological system could not be formed by “numerous successive, slight modifications?” Well, for starters, a system that is irreducibly complex. By irreducibly complex I mean a single system composed of several well-matched interacting parts that contribute to the basic function, wherein the removal of any one of the [core] parts causes the system to effectively cease functioning. [DBB, p. 39]
Obviously, something like that exhibits an all in one, all or nothing characteristic, which defeats incremental development. As, at each step but the creation of a functional entity all at once from multiple well matched properly arranged and coupled parts, it would not work, and would be selected against. (Indeed, this is precisely a form of the islands of function phenomenon that too many Darwinists who object to design thought are in denial about. So, they need to ask themselves some serious questions about what it takes to get the implied info in a large config space all at once.) A commonly encountered objection is the exaptation argument, where components that did other things just happen to fall together and voila poof a novel function emerges. Menuge's observations on the problems with such voila poof reasoning in the context of the bacterial flagellum -- and BTW, the TTSS is if anything derived from the flagellum and is itself IC also -- are well worth citing:
For a working [bacterial] flagellum to be built by exaptation, the five following conditions would all have to be met:
C1: Availability. Among the parts available for recruitment to form the flagellum, there would need to be ones capable of performing the highly specialized tasks of paddle, rotor, and motor, even though all of these items serve some other function or no function. C2: Synchronization. The availability of these parts would have to be synchronized so that at some point, either individually or in combination, they are all available at the same time. C3: Localization. The selected parts must all be made available at the same ‘construction site,’ perhaps not simultaneously but certainly at the time they are needed. C4: Coordination. The parts must be coordinated in just the right way: even if all of the parts of a flagellum are available at the right time, it is clear that the majority of ways of assembling them will be non-functional or irrelevant. C5: Interface compatibility. The parts must be mutually compatible, that is, ‘well-matched’ and capable of properly ‘interacting’: even if a paddle, rotor, and motor are put together in the right order, they also need to interface correctly.
( Agents Under Fire: Materialism and the Rationality of Science, pgs. 104-105 (Rowman & Littlefield, 2004). HT: ENV.)
Typically, only C1 is discussed in the usual exaptation arguments. But plainly, all five criteria must be simultaneously met at one go or the system will not function and will be selected against. By the force of the very dynamic of filtering variations on CURRENT performance that is being appealed to. It seems that the reason such flawed dismissive arguments work, is that they are a part of a circular pattern of reasoning. There is an unyielding core assumption based on a priori materialism and/or its fellow traveller conceptions, that OOL and body plan macro evo happened by blind naturalistic processes. They are the only players allowed, so they MUST win. If an issue is brought up that would go beyond the circle, it MUST be ruled out, as "unscientific." Any thing that is remotely plausible to the eye of Darwinist faith -- and yes, this is ideological commitment we are dealing with -- will do. All in all, it seems, too often, that we are looking at just finding dismissive talking points to not take issues like IC seriously. Yet another display station for the upcoming tour of shame. KF kairosfocus
Joe, 163: Please watch language and tone. KF kairosfocus
They are, aren't they, Alan? In the US, at least, I believe. Axel
'Alan thanks for the opportunity to show that you are nothing but a blowhard coward.' Speak your mind, Joe. Don't hold back. But no references to Jack You-Know-Who, there's a good chap. You came close to it the other day, I noticed! We're waiting to see if Richie Dee is going to make the study of nothing a new discipline, and don't want to scare him off. Axel
By special interests, I mean governments. Alan Fox
‘I think we should be told.’
It's the information age. It's all out there at the end of a few clicks. The information revolution is mind-boggling. How long before special interest groups try to control the internet? Alan Fox
I'm beginning to see the atheists' point: If nothing can turn itself into everything and maintain it all, the whole time blindfolded at that, could even an omniscient and omnipotent God do as much? As Private Eye sages used to say, mimicking the press, 'I think we should be told.' Axel
Maybe when evolution sobers up, Art'll be able to provide it, Joe. The 'vino collapso' it seems to be addicted to, isn't too great for guidance purposes. Axel
And Alan, it is very telling that Art Hunt didn't provide any evidence for unguided evolution producing proteins. Joe
Alan thanks for the opportunity to show that you are nothing but a blowhard coward. Joe
Joe thanks for the opportunity for a stroll down memory lane. On the next page, Dave Wisker links to an article by Art Hunt that covers points raised by Axe's 2004 paper Alan Fox
Alan Fox:
Well, with the wonders of the internet, you don’t need to remember.
Well I do remember and obviously I remember correctly. Ya see Alan I emailed him too... Joe
earth to Alan Fox: So Axe said he didn’t use the EF. He just eliminated necessity and chance PLUS he found some specification. Wait, the EF has you eliminating necessity and chance PLUS it mandates a specification be present before inferring design. What part of that don't you understand? Joe
Yes and I remeber he said he didn’t, which is like saying “I didn’t use a knife to cut that piece of meat, I used a narrow, sharpened piece of metal.”
Well, with the wonders of the internet, you don't need to remember. The email is still there to be read.
Thanks for the question, Alan. I think this underscores one of the limitations of these forums. If people are claiming that I said something, they ought to refer to the source so that others can see exactly what was said. As it is, I don't know what is being referred to. One of my papers (Journal of Molecular Biology v341 pp1295- ) presents a numerical estimate of the frequency of functional proteins in sequence space. That work may well have been used to apply Dembski's filter, but I haven't described such an application.*
*emphasis mine. link to the page. Unfortunately there are no permalinks and you need to scroll down to the last comment on that page. Alan Fox
So Axe said he didn't use the EF. He just eliminated necessity and chance PLUS he found some specification. Wait, the EF has you eliminating necessity and chance PLUS it mandates a specification be present before inferring design. Joe
Alan Fox:
Knowing the “Designer” intervenes with reality only insofar as we are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances makes much more sense. Actually, no it doesn’t.
Pperhaps not to you. But then again you don't seem to know anything.
Just attempting more clarification, you wrote: …the way to the design inference is THROUGH the blind watchmaker and I still have no idea what you are driving at. Why is the “through” capitalized? What are you referring to by “the blind watchmaker”?
Read the book Alan- or better yet: “Blind watchmaker” thesis: the idea that all organisms have descended from common ancestors solely through an unguided, unintelligent, purposeless, material processes such as natural selection acting on random variations or mutations; that the mechanisms of natural selection, random variation and mutation, and perhaps other similarly naturalistic mechanisms, are completely sufficient to account for the appearance of design in living organisms. As for mathgrrl, well Patrick choked on everything. Strange that you would bring that up seeing taht he ran away like the coward that he is. But anyway Alan, it is very telling that you cannot falsify ID by demonstrating that your position can explain something. Loser. Joe
Alan Fox:
Remember the old times at ARN when you claimed that Douglas Axe had used Dembski’s explanatory filter?
Yes and I remeber he said he didn't, which is like saying "I didn't use a knife to cut that piece of meat, I used a narrow, sharpened piece of metal." Joe
BTW Joe Remember the old times at ARN when you claimed that Douglas Axe had used Dembski's explanatory filter? link Alan Fox
Thanks for the clarification, Joe. Knowing the "Designer" intervenes with reality only insofar as we are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances makes much more sense. Actually, no it doesn't. Just attempting more clarification, you wrote:
...the way to the design inference is THROUGH the blind watchmaker
and I still have no idea what you are driving at. Why is the "through" capitalized? What are you referring to by "the blind watchmaker"? And now you tell me
BTW the design inference has been proposed.
I wonder what would transpire if you tried writing this in E' (H/T Dr Liddle) William Dembski has proposed the design inference, perhaps. So we find ourselves here. Familiar ground. Explanatory filters, complex specified information, the Mathgrrl saga. Are you still claiming that you or anyone can show by a simple calculation whether "Design" was involved in the pathway by which an entity or process came about? Mathgrrl never got a satisfactory answer, despite much effort and much time. All the threads, posts and comments are still there. Alan Fox
Unless we have a more accurate and predictive theory that better fits the evidence, scientists will work with what they have.
Unguided evolution doesn't make any predictions. It is totally useless. So obvioulsy scientists don't work with that... Joe
Therefor to refute ID and any given design inference all one has to do is step up and demonstrate that blind and undirected processes can account for it. IOW all evotards have to do to stop ID cold is to actually step up and A) produce a testable hypothesis for their position and B) produce positive, supporting evidence. And it is very telling that evos always avoid doing so. Joe
Intelligent Design relies on Newton’s First Rule… Alan Fox:
Newton’s First Law of Motion?
Always the ignorant ass, hey, Alan? Try Newton's four rules of scientific reasoning. Therefor to refute ID and any given design inference all one has to do is step up and demonstrate that blind and undirected processes can account for it. IOW all evotards have to do to stop ID cold is to actually step up and A) produce a tyestable hypothesis for their position and B) produce positive, supporting evidence.
Ah, but wait. I can’t refute something until it has been proposed.
Alan, you can't refute anything because you are scientifically illiterate. BTW the design inference has been proposed. Again your ignorance is your problem, not mine.
Apart from being the title of a book by Richard Dawkins, what does this mean?
Again your ignorance is your problem, not mine.
Irreducible complexity is not a test for “Design”.
Yes, it is.
It is merely an expression of incredulity. Nope it is based on our knowledge of cause and effect relationships.
It is subjective and merely asserts that system X could not have evolved.
That is false. Again your ignorance is amusing but not a refutation.
“Design” is merely assumed as a default.
Yes you are also ignorant of the meaning of the word default. And if you like vagueness no need to look any further than your position.
Joe
Intelligent Design relies on Newton’s First Rule...
Newton's First Law of Motion? When viewed in an inertial reference frame, an object either is at rest or moves at a constant velocity, unless acted upon by a force. Perhaps you'll explain the connection...
...meaning agencies are only added when REQUIRED.
No, perhaps not. You'll have to explain what the law of inertia has to do with "agencies". Or do you mean agencies are objects at rest or in motion? Added when required? By whom? All a bit vague so far.
Therefor to refute ID and any given design inference all one has to do is step up and demonstrate that blind and undirected processes can account for it. IOW all evotards have to do to stop ID cold is to actually step up and A) produce a tyestable hypothesis for their position and B) produce positive, supporting evidence.
Ah, but wait. I can't refute something until it has been proposed. You need to give me something specific enough so it can be falsified by testing a prediction by observation or experiment.
However all evos can do is cry foul and say “blind, undirected processes is a strawman!”- yet it is a given that natural selection, genetic drift and HGT are all blind, purposeless processes and all mutations are undirected-> that is given the current theory of evolution. IOW evos are so clueless they don’t even understand the theory they try to defend!
The above is nothing to do with how to detect "Design" in a biological entity or process, so I'll move on.
So there you have it ole evos- just start supporting your position and ID will go away.
Well, if "Design" (not design) can be detected reliably in a biological context, we need to know. Unless we have a more accurate and predictive theory that better fits the evidence, scientists will work with what they have.
How is ID tested? As in positive evidence?
Yes.
1- See above as the way to the design inference is THROUGH the blind watchmaker
Apart from being the title of a book by Richard Dawkins, what does this mean?
2- The criteria for inferring design in biology is, as Michael J. Behe, Professor of Biochemistry at Leheigh University, puts it in his book Darwin ‘ s Black Box: “Our ability to be confident of the design of the cilium or intracellular transport rests on the same principles to be confident of the design of anything: the ordering of separate components to achieve an identifiable function that depends sharply on the components.”
Irreducible complexity is not a test for "Design". It is merely an expression of incredulity. It is subjective and merely asserts that system X could not have evolved. This, if valid as a reliable indicator, only purports to tell us of the weakness or lack of an evolutionary explanation. "Design" is merely assumed as a default. But it is the validity of the "Design" assumption that is what needs to be addressed.
So if nature, operating freely cannot account for it AND it meets that criteria, some agency is required and we infer design (or at least agency involvement).
So, "some agency"? It seems if an explanation is inadequate, we need to find a better one. And I note the equivocation; "design"(not "Design") "or at least agency involvement". Vagueness to the point of vapidity. Alan Fox
Translation- "Alan doesn't have a clue and he needs to ask people what they think" Joe
Well alrighty then! I'll get back to you later! Alan Fox
Alan Fox:
Well, my impression was KF offered me a look through his telescope and you jumped in.
Well you would have to pull your head out of your arse first, Alan. Or maybe you think the telescope will fit up there as well. That's possible but the view would still be shitty. Joe
Alan, my method works. OTOH your position doesn't have any methodology beyond "It isn't designed no matter what." BTW my summary applies to all people, not just me. Joe
My post was a response to your request for a method to detect design in biology. Are you that stupid that you can’t even follow along?
Well, my impression was KF offered me a look through his telescope and you jumped in. If you have a method that can detect "Design" (not design) then that would do as a start. You confirm that 149 is intended to serve as a summary of how JoeG can reliably detect "Design" (not design) in a biological entity or process, do you, Joe? Alan Fox
Afetr 8 years in this debate Alan still doesn't have a clue. My 10 year old understands more than you Alan. Joe
So Alan’s “response” to my post on how to detect design in biology is to ask other IDists their opinion on what I said? Alan Fox:
No that was second.
It was still your response.
First I asked JoeG if he was happy with his comment as a precis of a theory of “Intelligent Design”
My post was a response to your request for a method to detect design in biology. Are you that stupid that you can't even follow along?
as the time between me asking for a link and your post was about 10 minutes and it does not look solely like a cut&paste.
It was a cut and paste with a little modification. Joe
Alan Fox:
Well in that case, I won’t waste my time.
You are a waste of time, Alan. So Alan asks:
Point your telescope and explain how to identify “Design” in any meaningful way on any real biological scenario.
I tell him and his response is he isn't going to waste his time with it? Alan, we do NOT need any more proof that you are an ignorant coward. So why do you insist on continually proving what is already well known? Joe
Alan Fox:
Then I asked if it had any consensus support from other IDers as It’s hardly worth addressing your version if nobody else agrees with it.
Geez Behe, Dembski and Meyer agree with it! Just read their books. Again your ignorance of ID is amusing but not a refutation. Also I posted that many times over several years- it's all on my blog. Joe
That answer is not a theory of ID.
Missed this. Well in that case, I won't waste my time. Alan Fox
Oops it savehaving to deal with should read as it would save time having to deal with Alan Fox
So Alan’s “response” to my post on how to detect design in biology is to ask other IDists their opinion on what I said?
No that was second. First I asked JoeG if he was happy with his comment as a precis of a theory of "Intelligent Design" as the time between me asking for a link and your post was about 10 minutes and it does not look solely like a cut&paste. Then I asked if it had any consensus support from other IDers as It's hardly worth addressing your version if nobody else agrees with it. And thirdly I asked KF because he has been banging on about FSCO/I for a long time and it savehaving to deal with one minority argument rather than two. Alan Fox
So Alan's "response" to my post on how to detect design in biology is to ask other IDists their opinion on what I said? Talk about cowardice. What's wrong Alan you cannot fend for yourself? Joe
LoL!@Alan Fox- You asked how we could detect design in biology and I answered you. That answer is not a theory of ID. Joe
OK I see your comment at 149. You're happy with that. Calling all IDers! Happy with Joe's theory of "Intelligent Design" as posted by JoeG above at 149? KF? You don't want to add to or clarify anything Joe has written at 149? Alan Fox
How many times do I have to link to something and/ or post it (for you)?
Once would be a start. You do know how to bookmark don't you. Its a couple of clicks to create a link. Furthermore such a resource would be of widespread interest. The long awaited theory of "Intelligent Design"! Why aren't IDers shouting it from the rooftops. A link, Joe? How hard can it be? Alan Fox
For Alan Fox: Yes, Intelligent Design is both testable and falsifiable. Intelligent Design relies on Newton's First Rule, meaning agencies are only added when REQUIRED. Therefor to refute ID and any given design inference all one has to do is step up and demonstrate that blind and undirected processes can account for it. IOW all evotards have to do to stop ID cold is to actually step up and A) produce a tyestable hypothesis for their position and B) produce positive, supporting evidence. However all evos can do is cry foul and say "blind, undirected processes is a strawman!"- yet it is a given that natural selection, genetic drift and HGT are all blind, purposeless processes and all mutations are undirected-> that is given the current theory of evolution. IOW evos are so clueless they don't even understand the theory they try to defend! So there you have it ole evos- just start supporting your position and ID will go away. How is ID tested? As in positive evidence? 1- See above as the way to the design inference is THROUGH the blind watchmaker 2- The criteria for inferring design in biology is, as Michael J. Behe, Professor of Biochemistry at Leheigh University, puts it in his book Darwin ' s Black Box: "Our ability to be confident of the design of the cilium or intracellular transport rests on the same principles to be confident of the design of anything: the ordering of separate components to achieve an identifiable function that depends sharply on the components.” So if nature, operating freely cannot account for it AND it meets that criteria, some agency is required and we infer design (or at least agency involvement). Joe
Not capable of thought then Alan? Not capable of supporting your sorry position then Alan? How many times do I have to link to something and/ or post it (for you)? If you haven't grasped it by now the odds are that you never will. So perhaps it would be better if you just try to support your position. That is the real way to refute ID- show us that a designer is not required. Yet you can't. Joe
Not capable of posting a link then Joe? Alan Fox
And Alan, we have been asking for the methodology used to determine evolution is unguided, yet you have FAILED to do so. We have asked you for this alleged theory of evolution and all you can say is it is in some books. Joe
Yes Alan, I posted it and you responded to it. Again your willful ignorance, while amusing, is meaningless here. Joe
Alan, we have told you how to do what you are asking.
How did you do that, Joe? Does it take the form of a post or a comment? Are you capable of locating it and posting a link? Alan Fox
Alan, we have told you how to do what you are asking. And in your 8 years you have proven to be a willfully ignorant and dishonest dolt. Joe
And refusing to attend to FSCO/I, the obvious fact that this is commonly seen and measured in an ICT world, that it is also manifested in the coded info in DNA etc, is like the scholastics who refused to look through Galileo’s telescope.
Presumably, by looking through your telescope, I should see some definition, explanation of how to apply "FSCO/I to a biological scenario to identify an act of "Design". Let me look then. Point your telescope and explain how to identify "Design" in any meaningful way on any real biological scenario. And take your time. I am happy to wait. I've waited over eight years so far. If there are still issues with your son that make calls on your time, please do not compromise that just to argue with someone on the internet. Alan Fox
And Alan, disagreeing with people is fine. However it is your "reasoning" that demonstrates that you are deceitful. BTW Alan it is mandatory for ID to poke holes into unguided evolution as showing unguided evolution is BS is part of showing ID to be correct. Again, your scientific illiteracy, while amusing, is still meaningless here. Joe
Alan Fox:
And in amongst the bluff, bluster and bloviation I failed to notice any hypothesis of “Intelligent Design”.
And in amongst Alan's bluff, bluster and bloviation I failed to notice any hypothesis of “unguided evolution”. Joe
F/N 4P Observe the pattern of insistently continued misrepresentations, distortions and accusations falsely presented as facts and twistabout rhetoric on AF's part, while ducking and dodging the substantial matters on the table. All too revealing of what is going on. Enough for record. KF kairosfocus
F/N 3: AF continues his distortions, trying to pretend that it has not been adequately warranted per inductive reasoning, that FSCO/I is a reliable sign of design as best causal explanation. There is a longstanding and institutionally dominant paradigm, which can be described as evolutionary materialism, which purports to explain origins. Since every tub must int he end stand on its own bottom, it needs to ground its claims for origin of life and of major body plans. Per the issue of the origin of FSCO/I especially digitally coded information and algorithms with executing machinery for same [those very familiar things in a digital age], that paradigm is at an utter loss to explain BOTH OOL and OO body plans, to the point where it is demonstrably resorting to censorship of possibilities allowed to sit at he table of inference to best empirically grounded explanation. A good indication of the significance of this in the context of UD, is to note that for over eleven months now, an open challenge and invitation to provide empirically grounded, observation based warrant for the paradigm, has sat without serious and cogent answer -- not from AF, not from EL certainly not from KeithS and many others. The most is an evident attempt by Petrushka that has yet to see light of day, after maybe 6 or so months. [Remember, the challenge was, give us a feature length, 6,000 or so -- the limit is not a hard and fast number, it is a reasonable upper length for what people are typically willing to read at one go [20 - 30 minutes at typical reading rates] -- word essay that can link onwards for details to heart's content, but it must address on observational evidence both OOL and OO body plans.] by contrast, as was again outlined above and again strawmannised by AF, there is abundant, billions of cases basis for seeing that FSCO/I is a reliable sign of design, and further this is supported by the needle in haystack search challenge for blind search processes. Including the context where the world of life is full of FSCO/I, from OOL on up. So, per the principles of scientific inductive reasoning, the design inference is well founded, though limited in scope. That also held BTW for Kepler's three laws of motion. But those laws served as a good basis for undermining the prior Ptolermaic geocentric system, and then paved the way for the fuller analysis of Newton, twenty to sixty years dowen the line, that then created a grand synthesis. To object that designt heory is not at the Newtonian synthesis state, which is conceded aby all, and to hold that that therefore suffices to dismiss and falsely accuse empirically grounded evidence comparable to Kepler's empirical and inductive inferences on how planets moved, in favour of triumphalistically establishing a reigning orthodoxy every inch parallel to Ptolemaic Geocentrism with its ever growing numbers of wheels within wheels to try to save the phenomena slipping and sliding away from being covered, is just as backward as the worst sins of the scholastics. And refusing to attend to FSCO/I, the obvious fact that this is commonly seen and measured in an ICT world, that it is also manifested in the coded info in DNA etc, is like the scholastics who refused to look through Galileo's telescope. In no too many years time, such antics by the hot champions of today's reigning orthodoxy are going to look foolish indeed. KF kairosfocus
Enabling behaviour of false accusations and career busting is indeed highly relevant to what happened when finally Nazism was defeated: as the pictures I showed and clearly described demonstrated, those who were enablers of evil will one day be taken on a tour of shame to rivet beyond doubt what hey enabled. AF, despite being repeatedly corrected on this point, is again distorting, and he is then twisting about correction of his misbehaviour into personal attack.
Well, the mind just boggles. Kairosfocus doesn't just admit to his behaviour; he apparently sees nothing wrong or hypocritical in his actions. "What can men do against such reckless hypocrisy!" Alan Fox
F/N 2: Enabling behaviour of false accusations and career busting is indeed highly relevant to what happened when finally Nazism was defeated: as the pictures I showed and clearly described demonstrated, those who were enablers of evil will one day be taken on a tour of shame to rivet beyond doubt what hey enabled. AF, despite being repeatedly corrected on this point, is again distorting, and he is then twisting about correction of his misbehaviour into personal attack. This last is the tactic of turnabout false accusation. if he had not misrepresented and then insisted on it int he face of correction, I would not have had reason to correct him. In short AF is here being willfully insistent in misrepresentation; which is quite plainly deceptive and willful. As he full well should know. KF kairosfocus
F/N: Kindly observe this further correction to AF for his willful misrepresentation based misbehaviour, from several months ago. He is simply up to his longstanding old tricks above. And it is time for him to either wake up and deal with that, or it is time for us to ring fence him off as what he has been showing himself to be, a "by any means 'necessary' . . ." destructive ideologue hot to justify a reigning orthodoxy that is crumbling from its foundations, and in so doing is willing to misrepresent and distort, int eh teeth of cogent and repeated correction. Which, in plain words, is willfully deceitful, as deceit involves not speaking what one SHOULD know is false and misleading. KF kairosfocus
PS at KF And in amongst the bluff, bluster and bloviation I failed to notice any hypothesis of "Intelligent Design". Posturing and pretending to poke holes in evolutionary theory does not advance the fortunes of "Intelligent Design". It's still wishful thinking unless you can come up with a testable theory. Alan Fox
Kairosfocus
You are being willfully deceitful
I disagree with you. Trying to dismiss those who disagree with you as wilfully deceitful is just plain ad hominem rather like your smearing people by publishing irrelevant pictures of Nazi concentration camps implying people who disagree with you needed to be marched round them. For shame, KF, for shame. Alan Fox
Kairosfocus
You are being willfully deceitful I disagree with you. Trying to dismiss hose who disagree with you as willfully deceitful is just plain ad hominem rather like your smearing people by publishing irrelevant pictures of nazi concentration camps implying people who disagree with you needed to be marched round them. For shame, KF, for shame.
Alan Fox
PS: Where, of course, the functional specificity and complexity constraints narrow down successful configs to isolated clusters in the wider zone of possibilities. There may be a great many possible islands of function, scattered across the config space, but as the simple case of trying to construct long texts by random spewing of ASCII symbols will quickly show, the sets of successful strings are so tiny a fraction of the config space that once we look beyond fairly short -- non complex -- strings, blind search mechanisms are taxed and defeated by the vastness of the seas of non function. The metaphor on islands of function scattered across a vast sea of non-function, is all too apt. (And Dawkins' Weasel and kin, show that by contrast intelligently designed and directed search, even when carried out on intelligently designed machines, is much more capable. Of course, Dawkins tried to use Weasel to rhetorically persuade people of the opposite, all too successfully.) kairosfocus
Baraminology is an explanation…
That’s not universally accepted.
Neither is evolutionism. Also Gishlick didn't say anything that would throw doubt at baraminology. So who cares what he sez- he can't support unguided evolution if his life depended on it. Joe
AF: You are being willfully deceitful by way of insistently continued misrepresentation at this point. In this thread, you have repeatedly misrepresented me -- part of an ugly pattern you have sustained and enabled here and at TSZ over the scale of months [you are an enabler of a false accusation that is outright slanderous, and you have had to be corrected on strawman tactics before, e.g. here . . . note point 8] -- and on being corrected TWICE above in this thread, you have insisted on setting up and knocking over strawmen by pushing worlds in my mouth that do not belong there. That suffices to show that you have no answer on the merits but hope to mislead. Game over. The plain inductive evidence is that FSCO/I has but one known cause, design, and analysis of needles and haystacks shows why that is very reasonable. You have no reasonable account for the origin of the FSCO/I of cell based life forms, especially the use of coded strings and algorithms. The best explanation on abundant empirical evidence backed up by analysis of the search challenges of large config spaces with solar system scale or even observed cosmos scale resources, is design. Design therefore sits at the table of reasonable explanations of key life phenomena from the root of the tree of life. The root your favoured theory is unable to touch, and the root the naturalistic models have spectacularly failed to account for, for reasons directly connected to the challenges of creating FSCO/I by blind watchmaker mechanisms in warm little Darwinian ponds or the like. Especially since, the favourite smokescreen, "natural selection," is off the table at that point. And also, at OOL, part of what has to be accounted for is not just metabolising, organised c-chemistry automata, but also the origin of the required vNSR, a code using, algorithmic self replicating mechanism. Codes -- symbols that stand for other things in the context of communication per rules of representation -- are a linguistic phenomenon, and algorithms apply language to specify goal directed, step by step procedures that are physically instantiated in organised machinery comprising a complex array of components that are properly matched and very specifically functionally organised. There is but one credible, empirically warranted and analytically plausible source for such: design. So, I repeat, despite the smoke of burning ad hominem soaked strawmen clouding and confusing and poisoning the atmosphere, we have every good scientific, inductive logic grounded reason to infer that FSCO/I is a reliable sign of design as cause. Where, design is well understood as a process of cause where by we can identify:
Design is the creation of a plan or convention for the construction of an object or a system (as in architectural blueprints, engineering drawings, business processes, circuit diagrams and sewing patterns).[1] Design has different connotations in different fields (see design disciplines below). In some cases the direct construction of an object (as in pottery, engineering, management, cowboy coding and graphic design) is also considered to be design . . . . design has been defined as follows.
(noun) a specification of an object, manifested by an agent, intended to accomplish goals, in a particular environment, using a set of primitive components, satisfying a set of requirements, subject to constraints; (verb, transitive) to create a design, in an environment (where the designer operates)[2]
Another definition for design is a roadmap or a strategic approach for someone to achieve a unique expectation. It defines the specifications, plans, parameters, costs, activities, processes and how and what to do within legal, political, social, environmental, safety and economic constraints in achieving that objective.[3] Here, a "specification" can be manifested as either a plan or a finished product, and "primitives" are the elements from which the design object is composed.
And yes, I here cite Wikipedia, against known ideological interest. Dembski is quite simple, and on longstanding record:
. . . (1) A designer conceives a purpose. (2) To accomplish that purpose, the designer forms a plan. (3) To execute the plan, the designer specifies building materials and assembly instructions. (4) Finally, the designer or some surrogate applies the assembly instructions to the building materials. (No Free Lunch, p. xi. HT: ENV.)
As for your usual attempts to pretend that FSCO/I or cognates are bogus concepts etc., I simply point out that your own posts are examples in point of complex organised functional patterns of coupled elements towards a specific function, and manifesting or implying 500 - 1,000 or more bits of information carrying capacity to achieve said function. Your posts are string data structures using ASCII code or the like, and by direct and appropriate comparison, D/RNA strings are the same basic item, information bearing coded strings. Computer file sizes routinely report quantitative values for such, e.g. so and so file in such and such format is 198 k bytes. All that the expression you and ilk so despise, Chi_500 = I*S - 500, functionally specific bits beyond the solar system threshold of complexity . . . does, is to take the explicit or implicit bitwise info capacity metric -- I -- for an entity, address the issue of functional specificity on empirical evidence and if so, multiplies by S = 1 [and by S = 0 otherwise] then asks, by subtraction, whether it is beyond a limit for the blind search capacity of our solar system [500 bits]. Something that is such that Chi_500 = 1 or more, and which is within our solar system, the practical universe for chemical level interactions we face, is with high confidence, a manifestation of design. If you want a bigger reach, 1,000 bits addresses the observed cosmos on far more stringent terms, Planck time search steps of 10^80 particles for the thermodynamic lifespan of the observed cosmos, about 50 mn times the usually accepted timeline to date from the big bang. In short, directly the opposite of your long sustained pretence, we have a clear and reasonable, empirically grounded and quantitative measure for concluding that a given item -- such as cell based life --is per reasonable inductive analysis, designed. Going beyond OOL, major body plans plainly require much larger increments [not 100 k - 1 M bits, but 10 - 100 mn bits] of the same coded info and associated algorithms, and execution machinery, all of which is dependent on folding AA sequences that for a given config must fit together properly and carry out highly specific functions. In short, your real problem is, the whole world of life is chock full of that empirically reliable sign of design, FSCO/I. That is so from OOL on up, from the root of the tree of life and it is so for the origin of major body plans including our own. And yes, we can credibly infer design from FSCO/I without independently knowing the particular agent involved or the techniques used. The same way we would infer to design if we were to find a monolith on the moon or mars, and the same way we expect ETs who happen to encounter the Pioneer space craft, from its evident FSCO/I. All that is required, is that we consider that designers at eh relevant point are POSSIBLE. (In short, a priori materialism on origins is tantamount to a deeply embedded worldview level question-begging ideological a priori of dismissing the possibility of design of life and cosmos. In the latter case [notice, I am NOT addressing origin of life or body plans but instead of a fine tuned cosmos set up for C chemistry, aqueous medium cell based life in so many ways that lifelong agnostic and famed astrophysicist sir Fred Hoyle was moved to speak in terms of a superintellect monkeying with physics and resulting in there being no blind forces in the cosmos worth speaking of], it boils down to embedding atheism in the foundations of science. Which can be abundantly documented to be the case for too many today, including august institutions.) Your long sustained pattern of strawman tactic objections has no merit and is a manifestation of insistent continuation of a material misrepresentation in the teeth of correction, designed to gain a rhetorical advantage. As such, it has long passed the zone of mere error into that of willful deceit. Please, stop it. KF kairosfocus
Baraminology is an explanation...
That's not universally accepted. Alan Gishlick, for instance:
Despite its use of computer software and flashy statistical graphics, the practice of baraminology amounts to little more than a parroting of scientific investigations into phylogenetics. A critical analysis of the results from the one "objective" software program employed by baraminologists suggests that the method does not actually work. The supremacy of the biblical criteria is explicitly admitted to by Wood and others (2003) in their guidebook to baraminology, so all their claims of "objectivity" notwithstanding, the results will never stray very far from a literal reading of biblical texts. I will give the baraminologists credit in one area: they are up-front about their motives and predispositions and true to their biblical criteria and methodology, which is more than can be said about "intelligent design" proponents.
No doubt JoeG disagrees with Gishlick's conclusion and insists baraminology has some alternative explanation for the diversity of existent and extant life on Earth. I'd be most interested if JoeG (Or even Walter Remine) could manage a brief ang hopefully coherent summary. I'd be specially interested to hear how baraminologists deal with fossil evidence of the Cambrian Period. Alan Fox
Alan Fox:
Let’s see some alternative explanations for the pattern of how life on Earth, extant and extinct, that we find.
Alternatives to what, Alan? Even Lizzie sats that unguided evolution is NOT science. So what do you think that you have? Joe
Alan Fox:
All attempts to discredit evolutionary theory...
We cannot discredit that which does NOT exiist, Alan. And YOU cannot reference thos alleged "evolutionary theory"- so you are either ignorant or dishonest.
are no substitute for a theory of “Intelligent Design”.
You don't know what a theory is, Alan. Joe
Alan Fox:
The theory of evolution is an explanation of how a population of organisms will vary over time under the influence of the niche environment.
Baraminology is an explanation of how a population of organisms will vary over time under the influence of the niche environment. Joe
Alan Fox:
Comedy YEC like Robert Byers and JoeG
Only a complete moron would think that I am a YEC and here is Alan Fox Joe
Alan Fox:
New protein sequences are the result of an accumulation of small hanges,
Evidence please as we all know that all you do is make things up to suit your needs. Joe
No one here disagrees that organisms change.
I'm not so sure. You have people with very mixed views and opinions posting here. Comedy YEC like Robert Byers and JoeG to gentle souls like Vincent Torley and gpuccio. There's not much consistency.
The debate is about unguided common descent, which is what evolution is. It surely you must know this, I’ve seen you around here for a long time.
The thread topic is whether George Orwell, commenting on physicists being reluctant to refuse to work on the Manhattan project, was correct. Mind you, most threads here either receive no or few comments and the rest tend to veer off-topic. Regarding unguided evolution, I have often remarked that mainstream Christians are happy to assume that God's hand is invisible in the process so there needs to be no conflict regarding whether his guidance is real or imaginary.
So why would you act otherwise?
Act? Otherwise than what? You need to be clearer. Alan Fox
AF: No one here disagrees that organisms change. The debate is about unguided common descent, which is what evolution is. It surely you must know this, I've seen you around here for a long time. So why would you act otherwise? sixthbook
Evolutionary theory does not and cannot address the origin of systems capable of evolving. Which is just absurd.
Why absurd? The theory of evolution is an explanation of how a population of organisms will vary over time under the influence of the niche environment. I'd love to see an evidence-based theory for the origin of life but we have to say all current theories are speculative. You are lucky. Just being able to believe the various myths in your particular version of the Bible must be comforting. I have to admit I don't know the answer to OoL and I probably never will. Alan Fox
Aren’t you making the same claims that Upright BiPed set forth that you claimed were oh so wrong?
Well, it was sort of odd how he seems to insist on a purely "material" system. And, though he leaves it, unstated, the subtext of his argument is Ool is impossible without a "Designer". Which makes the insistance on a purely materialistic argument a bit perverse. Alan Fox
Oops an extraneous "how". Let’s see some alternative explanations for the pattern of life on Earth, extant and extinct, that we find. Alan Fox
Why do you — of all people (given what has happened in recent months with your being associated with slanderous false accusations) insist on a distortion after it has been corrected?
I strongly reject your baseless and ridiculous allegation of slander. You were the one posting pictures of irrelevant and inflammatory pictures of Nazi concentration camps attempting to suggest some link to "Darwinists". Get of your high horse.
I have explicitly pointed out [and that, for years at length] that the issue for AA — not “protein” — sequences, is deep isolation of folding, fitting specifically functional forms, in config spaces that vastly overwhelm solar system or observed cosmos scale resources, leading to a needle in an astronomical haystack scaled blind search challenge. That is multiplied by our knowledge of thousands of fold domains at hamming distances that do demonstrate deep isolation. Deep isolation is not about non existence of new islands of function, but about the deep challenge to blind watchmaker mechanisms to blindly find them in AA sequence space. As you either know or full well should know but refuse to squarely face.
And you keep repeating the unfounded assumption that functional proteins are "needle-in-haystack" rare in the configuration space of all proteins. You have no warrant for claiming "deep isolation". You don't know how rare functional proteins are because you have no way of telling. All the bluster in the World will not obscure this simple fact. And please stop with your idiosyncratic made-up words and expressions. I am perfectly entitled to use the phrase "unknown protein" for a theoretical polypeptide sequence.
Anyway, let me focus on the substantial matter.
Something new or interesting? A theory of "Intelligent Design", perhaps?
There is but one empirically warranted and analytically reasonable causal source for FSCO/I, design. That is, it is warranted to infer that FSCO/I is a reliable sign of design, as deer tracks are a sign of deer. Where also, the world of life from the cell on up is chock full of a vast and diverse amount of FSCO/I.
Your calculation does not coincide with reality. New protein sequences are the result of an accumulation of small hanges, not "tornado-in-junkyard" all-at-once events and, as I said above, the search space may not be sparse and you have no warrant for uttering your "islands of function" refrain and inventing some baseless probability. That's two terms in your calc that are bogus.
As well you know.
Priceless.
Design is at the table...
Wishful thinking. All attempts to discredit evolutionary theory are no substitute for a theory of "Intelligent Design". There isn't one yet. Don't you think it's time to start a little head scratching and hypothesizing? Let's see some alternative explanations for the pattern of how life on Earth, extant and extinct, that we find. Alan Fox
AF: Why do you -- of all people (given what has happened in recent months with your being associated with slanderous false accusations) insist on a distortion after it has been corrected? I have explicitly pointed out [and that, for years at length] that the issue for AA -- not "protein" -- sequences, is deep isolation of folding, fitting specifically functional forms, in config spaces that vastly overwhelm solar system or observed cosmos scale resources, leading to a needle in an astronomical haystack scaled blind search challenge. That is multiplied by our knowledge of thousands of fold domains at hamming distances that do demonstrate deep isolation. Deep isolation is not about non existence of new islands of function, but about the deep challenge to blind watchmaker mechanisms to blindly find them in AA sequence space. As you either know or full well should know but refuse to squarely face. That you find yourself having to revert to a strawman caricature after it has been corrected is sufficient to show that you have no answer on the merits. And, sadly, it speaks to a serious question of insincerity and want of basic respect and frankly common decency on your part, given your close association with and enabling of sustained and unspeakably uncivil false accusations. Anyway, let me focus on the substantial matter. There is but one empirically warranted and analytically reasonable causal source for FSCO/I, design. That is, it is warranted to infer that FSCO/I is a reliable sign of design, as deer tracks are a sign of deer. Where also, the world of life from the cell on up is chock full of a vast and diverse amount of FSCO/I. As well you know. As for trying the old trick of rhetorically severing the ROOT of the tree of life from the tree, the obvious answer is, no roots, no shoots or anything else. There is a clear connexion between origin of the systems of cell based life in the first "body plan" and the many others thereafter, especially once we see how important coded, algorithmic genetic and related information is. Information that clearly manifests FSCO/I. Design is at the table as of right from the root, and there is no good reason to inject the sort of a priori materialist censorship I pointed out today, at any point across the span of the tree of life. And that is before I point out a commonplace fact: in both secondary and college level courses and textbooks, it is utterly common to see OOL presented right next to the claimed onward body plan level evolution that spans the tree. What is never presented, however, is actual empirical observational evidence on how cell based life originates by blind chance and mechanical necessity in a warm little pond or the like, neither how body plans form in our observation on blind watchmaker mechanisms. Again and again, smooth words glide over that inconvenient fact, even as censorship cripples inference to best empirically grounded explanation of the required origin of FSCO/I. Censorship that now extends to unjustified distortion of the definition and methods of science. It is high time for reformation of science on origins, and linked science education. Or should that be, it is high time to expose and correct materialist indoctrination dressed up in a lab coat. KF kairosfocus
Wikipedia on environmental design. I doubt that is what Alan is talking about. Joe
Alan Fox:
Evolutionary processes can only work at the point where there are self-sustaining self-replicators.
Why?
Evolutionary processes can only work at the point where there are self-sustaining self-replicators.
Define your terms: Evolutionary Process Self-Sustaining Self-Replicators Aren't you making the same claims that Upright BiPed set forth that you claimed were oh so wrong?
Evolutionary theory does not and cannot address the origin of life on Earth.
Keep telling yourself that Alan, while making claims that contract it. Your claim reduces to the following: Evolutionary theory does not and cannot address the origin of systems capable of evolving. Which is just absurd. Mung
Joe, Alan believes in "Environmental Design." Whatever that is. Mung
"We are not mind readers here." Alan Fox:
I often get the impression that posters here, you among them, think they are.
How long have you been posting here now Alan? So what here at UD may seem to you like "mind reading" is really just reading tea leaves. Well..worn..tea leaves. Mung
Alan Fox:
The process is generally referred to as natural selection.
Except there isn't any evidence for NS creating new proteins. So you lose. Also there isn't any evidence that recombination and gene duplication are random processes.
Not sure what you mean by intelligently designed evolutionary processes.
Evolutionary and genetic algorithms are examples of intelligently designed evolutionary processes- ie goal oriented processes.
You really have misunderstood the process of natural selection.
Nope, you have.
It is not random.
It is the result of three processes, one which is totally random and the other two have random components. Random inputs drive a random output.
The process is biased towards individuals in a population that have some survival advantage in the niche in which they find themselves.
Mayr says NS is eliminative and as such is not biased as you said. Whatever is good enough gets to survive and have a chance at reproduction. NS is about as non-random as the spray pattern of a sawed-off shotgun shooting bird-shot. And nothing Alan can say will change that. Joe
Alan Fox:
Evolutionary theory does not and cannot address the origin of life on Earth.
Then it cannot address anything at all because how life evolved depends on how it originated. If the OoL = designed then it is a given that life evolved by design. And it is very telling that all you can do is ignore that fact and prattle on anyway. Joe
The process is generally referred to as natural selection. I am sure you are familiar of with the two-part reiterative process of variation arising in a population’s genome (collectively referred to as random variation such as errors arising in DNA replication and via meiosis and recombination, gene duplication etc etc) ratcheted by differential survival of phenotypes. The essential concept is deceptively simple. Darwin came up with the idea originally.
This is meaningless trivial stuff and gets one all the way to a new fur color. It doesn't even get one to a larger beak. Meaningless in the evolution debate and with which few disagree. It is certainly important for lots of things but not evolution. So why continue to bring this up when no one disagrees and it is irrelevant. By continuing to espouse it, one is saying I do not have a meaningful theory. It is like basic first and second grade arithmetic while what is needed is advanced simultaneous differential equations. So by continuing to bring up the trivial, one reinforces the ID position by default.
AS for evidence, it’s all around you if you care to look, in the diversity of plant and animal life we see today, plus the remnants of creatures long extinct. The nested hierarchy of bifurcating divergence that we find without exception. Not proof, of course, but nevertheless strong support for the overarching idea.
Better evidence for design and not necessarily for any specific mechanism of naturalistic processes. If an naturalistic process was working, one would expect to find something very different than what we see around us. By your admission, not a proof so the theory based on it is not proven let alone likely. Actually there are good biological reasons why it cannot be a legitimate hypothesis. jerry
Mr. Fox you are severely misled if you think that Szostak's ATP binding represents true functionality for the cell. You were already shown that your supposedly functional proteins 'gummed up the works' of the cell. Whereas on the other hand if one were to develop a protein that would bind to a specific site in the cell and that would actually do something useful in the cell instead of 'gumming up the works', the following is far more accurate as to what would have to be accomplished: Viral-Binding Protein Design Makes the Case for Intelligent Design Sick! (as in cool) - Fazale Rana - June 2011 Excerpt: When considering this study, it is remarkable to note how much effort it took to design a protein that binds to a specific location on the hemagglutinin molecule. As biochemists Bryan Der and Brian Kuhlman point out while commenting on this work, the design of these proteins required: "...cutting-edge software developed by ~20 groups worldwide and 100,000 hours of highly parallel computing time. It also involved using a technique known as yeast display to screen candidate proteins and select those with high binding affinities, as well as x-ray crystallography to validate designs.2" If it takes this much work and intellectual input to create a single protein from scratch, is it really reasonable to think that undirected evolutionary processes could accomplish this task routinely? In other words, the researchers from the University of Washington and The Scripps Institute have unwittingly provided empirical evidence that the high-precision interactions required for PPIs requires intelligent agency to arise. Sick! http://www.reasons.org/viral-binding-protein-design-makes-case-intelligent-design-sick-cool Computer-designed proteins programmed to disarm variety of flu viruses - June 1, 2012 Excerpt: The research efforts, akin to docking a space station but on a molecular level, are made possible by computers that can describe the landscapes of forces involved on the submicroscopic scale.,, These maps were used to reprogram the design to achieve a more precise interaction between the inhibitor protein and the virus molecule. It also enabled the scientists, they said, "to leapfrog over bottlenecks" to improve the activity of the binder. http://phys.org/news/2012-06-computer-designed-proteins-variety-flu-viruses.html of related note as to prevention of aggregation, i.e. prevention of 'gumming up the works': Protein Life Times: Just-Right Evidence for Design - Fazale Rana PhD. - biochemistry Excerpt: Researchers learned that the amino acid sequences are exquisitely arranged to precisely balance the need for structural stability, while minimizing aggregation propensity.,,, Yet the optimization of proteins is not limited to their aggregation propensities. A cascade of optimization characterizes protein structure and function. In The Cell’s Design, I described a number of other ways that protein structure is optimized. http://www.reasons.org/articles/protein-life-times-just-right-evidence-for-design also of note as to what evolution would actually look like even if Szostak's 1 in 10^12 number for rarity of functional proteins were true: How Proteins Evolved - Cornelius Hunter - December 2010 Excerpt: Comparing ATP binding with the incredible feats of hemoglobin, for example, is like comparing a tricycle with a jet airplane. And even the one in 10^12 shot, though it pales in comparison to the odds of constructing a more useful protein machine, is no small barrier. If that is what is required to even achieve simple ATP binding, then evolution would need to be incessantly running unsuccessful trials. The machinery to construct, use and benefit from a potential protein product would have to be in place, while failure after failure results. Evolution would make Thomas Edison appear lazy, running millions of trials after millions of trials before finding even the tiniest of function. http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2010/12/how-proteins-evolved.html bornagain77
There is no evidence of NS being even relevant to OOL and that is the root of the tree of life.
Evolutionary theory does not and cannot address the origin of life on Earth. Evolutionary processes can only work at the point where there are self-sustaining self-replicators. Alan Fox
the set of unknown proteins [raw AA sequences] is vast. There’s no case at all for claiming there is no potential functionality in as-yet undiscovered, untested proteins [raw AA sequences]
You will note that I have highlighted where you have distorted what I did say (and didn’t say, but you put words in my mouth).
Proteins are polypeptides. Any sequence of polypeptides is capable of existing. At least I am not aware of any forbidden combinations. Your distinction between proteins and amino acid sequences is a red herring (whether soaked in oil of ad hominem etc I'll leave you to judge) In the comment you reproduce, I quoted you thus:
That is why we often speak of isolated islands of function in vast seas of non-function.
The clear implication is that unknown proteins are non-functional. If you don't mean that then my apologies. However, in case you do, you would be making an unsupported claim. I don't say you are wrong. I say you do not know and are unjustified in assuming that unknown proteins are for the most part, non-functional. There is no way currently to tell what functionality a protein has other than synthesizing it and examining its properties. Keefe and Szostak have shown that ATP binding (just one potentially useful function) was found to exist in a mix of randomly generated proteins. Alan Fox
AF: The evidence we have of NS, is that it is able to carry out incremental minor mods, usually by breaking a function that is not vital, that happens to give an advantage in a given environment. There is no evidence of NS being even relevant to OOL and that is the root of the tree of life. There is no observational evidence -- the touchstone of being properly scientific -- that chance variation and NS are able to innovate novel body plans. By contrast, there is abundant evidence that FSCO/I, and especially codes and algorithms come from design. There is also evidence of ideological imposition that locks this out from serious consideration. KF kairosfocus
Actually Szostak's 'very interesting results' for man made proteins were 'very interesting' for what Mr. Fox is not willing to tell: Szostak's work: A Man-Made ATP-Binding Protein Evolved Independent of Nature Causes Abnormal Growth in Bacterial Cells - 2009 Excerpt: "Recent advances in de novo protein evolution have made it possible to create synthetic proteins from unbiased libraries that fold into stable tertiary structures with predefined functions. However, it is not known whether such proteins will be functional when expressed inside living cells or how a host organism would respond to an encounter with a non-biological protein. Here, we examine the physiology and morphology of Escherichia coli cells engineered to express a synthetic ATP-binding protein evolved entirely from non-biological origins. We show that this man-made protein disrupts the normal energetic balance of the cell by altering the levels of intracellular ATP. This disruption cascades into a series of events that ultimately limit reproductive competency by inhibiting cell division." http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0007385 Strange Behavior: New Study Exposes Living Cells to Synthetic Protein - Dec. 27, 2012 Excerpt: ,,,"ATP is the energy currency of life," Chaput says. The phosphodiester bonds of ATP contain the energy necessary to drive reactions in living systems, giving up their stored energy when these bonds are chemically cleaved. The depletion of available intracellular ATP by DX binding disrupts normal metabolic activity in the cells, preventing them from dividing, (though they continue to grow).,,, In the current study, E. coli cells exposed to DX transitioned into a filamentous form, which can occur naturally when such cells are subject to conditions of stress. The cells display low metabolic activity and limited cell division, presumably owing to their ATP-starved condition. The study also examined the ability of E. coli to recover following DX exposure. The cells were found to enter a quiescent state known as viable but non-culturable (VBNC), meaning that they survived ATP sequestration and returned to their non-filamentous state after 48 hours, but lost their reproductive capacity. Further, this condition was difficult to reverse and seems to involve a fundamental reprogramming of the cell. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/12/121227143001.htm If Mr. Fox was forthright, he would truthfully acknowledge that it is far more difficult to find a biologically helpful protein than he tries to deceptively pretend with Szostak's (1 in 10^12) work: Creating Life in the Lab: How New Discoveries in Synthetic Biology Make a Case for the Creator - Fazale Rana Excerpt of Review: ‘Another interesting section of Creating Life in the Lab is one on artificial enzymes. Biological enzymes catalyze chemical reactions, often increasing the spontaneous reaction rate by a billion times or more. Scientists have set out to produce artificial enzymes that catalyze chemical reactions not used in biological organisms. Comparing the structure of biological enzymes, scientists used super-computers to calculate the sequences of amino acids in their enzymes that might catalyze the reaction they were interested in. After testing dozens of candidates,, the best ones were chosen and subjected to “in vitro evolution,” which increased the reaction rate up to 200-fold. Despite all this “intelligent design,” the artificial enzymes were 10,000 to 1,000,000,000 times less efficient than their biological counterparts. Dr. Rana asks the question, “is it reasonable to think that undirected evolutionary processes routinely accomplished this task?” http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0801072093 Dr. Fuz Rana, at the 41:30 minute mark of the following video, speaks on the tremendous effort that went into building the preceding protein: Science - Fuz Rana - Unbelievable? Conference 2013 - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-u34VJ8J5_c&list=PLS5E_VeVNzAstcmbIlygiEFir3tQtlWxx&index=8 The Challenge to Darwinism from a Single Remarkably Complex Enzyme - Ann Gauger - May 1, 2012 Excerpt: How does a neo-Darwinian process evolve an enzyme like this? Even if enzymes that carried out the various partial reactions could have evolved separately, the coordination and combining of those domains into one huge enzyme is a feat of engineering beyond anything we can do. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/05/the_challenge_t059191.html bornagain77
Please provide evidence for the stumbling on new functional proteins and the actual process that does the stumbling.
The process is generally referred to as natural selection. I am sure you are familiar of with the two-part reiterative process of variation arising in a population's genome (collectively referred to as random variation such as errors arising in DNA replication and via meiosis and recombination, gene duplication etc etc) ratcheted by differential survival of phenotypes. The essential concept is deceptively simple. Darwin came up with the idea originally. AS for evidence, it's all around you if you care to look, in the diversity of plant and animal life we see today, plus the remnants of creatures long extinct. The nested hierarchy of bifurcating divergence that we find without exception. Not proof, of course, but nevertheless strong support for the overarching idea.
Maybe intelligently designed evolutionary processes can do that. However there’s no case at all for claiming unguided evolution can produce a functional protein.
Not sure what you mean by intelligently designed evolutionary processes. If you refer to people (Craig Venter perhaps) then there is no current method of designing functional proteins other than trial and error. In fact Jack Szostak did this by testing random sequences for ATP affinity and got very interesting results.
Only intelligent design evolution posits non-random changes, Alan.
You really have misunderstood the process of natural selection. It is not random. The process is biased towards individuals in a population that have some survival advantage in the niche in which they find themselves Alan Fox
AF, Briefly, in between events on a busy day:
the set of unknown proteins [raw AA sequences] is vast. There’s no case at all for claiming there is no potential functionality in as-yet undiscovered, untested proteins [raw AA sequences]
You will note that I have highlighted where you have distorted what I did say (and didn't say, but you put words in my mouth). What I have pointed out is that for say 300 AA length sequences, we are looking at a space of 20^300, vastly beyond the search capacity of the observable cosmos. That is what makes it so hard to find folding and functioning [key-lock fitting, structurally effective, chemically active etc] proteins. On evidence that has been recently discussed here at UD (so it should be fresh in minds), we have reason to see that just to fold is a rarity in AA space, something like 1 in 10^70 or thereabouts. As Dr Durston highlighted, that a given AA sequence may be chemically active in a way we may find interesting in vitro is not at all the same as being able to fold, fit and function in vivo. At no point have I said that there are no possible functional proteins in the rest of unexplored AA sequence space. So, AF, kindly stop putting words in my mouth that do not belong there. The name for that is setting up and knocking over a strawman. What I have emphasised is:
(a) the rarity of folding, fitting and specifically functional sequences in the AA sequence spaces for typical protein length, (b) the want of search resources especially on the relevant gamut of the solar system or just our planet (c ) the fact that function emerges from a cluster of mutually matching parts, correctly arranged and coupled, drastically multiplying [exponentiating in fact] the blind watchmaker search challenge (d) that in OOL context, homochirality -- closely linked to folding and fitting, as well as interfering cross reactions from other species likely to be found in the environment, starting with water molecules. (e) that the vNSR self replication and the ribosomal protein assembly systems rely on codes and algorithms, which are implemented in similarly homochiral molecular complexes, and all of this is supported by a large and properly organised complex of supporting molecules, many of which are proteins produced in our observation by the same system
Until these issues and others are squarely faced and answered on empirical observational grounds, we are in no position to suggest that blind chance and mechanical necessity can credibly account for OOL. There is just one known, easily observed source for FSCO/I. Design. Design, as of right per canons of inductive reasoning sits at the table to explain the tree of life, from its OOL roots onwards. KF kairosfocus
Lizzie Liddle chokes:
It’s because what we call phyla are groups of organisms with an early common ancestor, ...
No Lizzie. What we call phyla are groups of organisms with similar/ shared defining characteristics. Joe
AVS- Could you please link to or reference this alleged theory of evolution that you keep alluding to? Joe
Mark Frank:
But I think it goes deeper. Without understanding about electromagnetics television becomes magic, without understanding about DNA and genetics the very discussions we have here and on UD would not be possible.
Yet what we do understand about DNA and genetics shoots down Mark Frank's position rather nicely but Mark doesn't even care and just prattles on regardless. Joe
Alan Fox:
I agree that the set of unknown proteins is vast.
You don't know, Alan. Heck the reason genetic engineering has been a bust outside of insulin is because the polypeptides did NOT form into a protein.
There’s no case at all for claiming there is no potential functionality in as-yet undiscovered, untested proteins.
There's no case at all for claiming unguided evolution can produce a functional protein.
Evolutionary processes keep stumbling on new functional proteins.
Maybe intelligently designed evolutionary processes can do that. However there's no case at all for claiming unguided evolution can produce a functional protein.
The process is not purely random and the stumble does not have to find everything, just something.
Only intelligent design evolution posits non-random changes, Alan. Joe
a method of thought which obtains verifiable results by reasoning logically from observed fact.
That leaves evolutionism out. Joe
By the way if you could answer each of these questions, you would be up for the Nobel prize.
Unless all you have is just simple micro-evolution/genetics which is old news. jerry
Evolutionary processes keep stumbling on new functional proteins.
Please provide evidence for the stumbling on new functional proteins and the actual process that does the stumbling.
We just don’t know (though what work has been done suggests functionality is widespread).
Again where is the evidence?
The process is not purely random and the stumble does not have to find everything, just something.
Is any part of the process random or is all under some kind of law like process? Or are you suggesting something addition to chance, law like and agent? Is stumbling somewhat different from random or law like? God forbid, there should be agency. Again provide evidence for "just something." By the way if you could answer each of these questions, you would be up for the Nobel prize. jerry
That is why we often speak of isolated islands of function in vast seas of non-function.
I agree that the set of unknown proteins is vast. There's no case at all for claiming there is no potential functionality in as-yet undiscovered, untested proteins. Evolutionary processes keep stumbling on new functional proteins. We just don't know (though what work has been done suggests functionality is widespread). The process is not purely random and the stumble does not have to find everything, just something. Alan Fox
'... I’m still waiting for him to explain how they are relevant to evolution (without a mile-long copy-paste essay- AVS You have it the wrong way round, Dum-Dum. We're waiting to discover from you the relevance of a half-baked and very exiguously-confirmed conjecture called, Evolution, to quantum entanglement's non-local implications. Axel
AVS just got put in the corner. One can only ride on red herrings, strawmen, and ad hominem for so long. I think it is funny when people who often mock others for having a "lack of reasoning or logic" usually understand neither of them. TSErik
AVS: You have given no indication above of any serious ability to engage issues on the merits, instead of to try to dismiss by using label-dismiss rhetoric and ad hominems. For instance, it remains a fact that we did not and cannot observe the remote past of origins. So our theoretical constructs used in origins studies science are far less constrained by genuine facts and a re far more prone to ideologically loaded circularities -- more on that in a moment -- than either experimental or observational sciences. And already, the logic of inductive reasoning tells us that inescapably, knowledge claims based on observation, hypothesis, prediction and empirical testing will be weak form, provisional. That is why, after reigning as the shining gem in the crown of science from the 1680's on, Newtonian dynamics from 1880 - 1930, underwent a revolution that shattered its dominance. But in fact, Newton knew and taught about that inherent provisionality all along, as can be seen from his 1704 Opticks, Query 31:
As in Mathematicks, so in Natural Philosophy, the Investigation of difficult Things by the Method of Analysis, ought ever to precede the Method of Composition. This Analysis consists in making Experiments and Observations, and in drawing general Conclusions from them by Induction, and admitting of no Objections against the Conclusions, but such as are taken from Experiments, or other certain Truths. For [empirically ungrounded speculative, metaphysical] Hypotheses are not to be regarded in experimental Philosophy. And although the arguing from Experiments and Observations by Induction be no Demonstration of general Conclusions; yet it is the best way of arguing which the Nature of Things admits of, and may be looked upon as so much the stronger, by how much the Induction is more general. And if no Exception occur from Phaenomena, the Conclusion may be pronounced generally. But if at any time afterwards any Exception shall occur from Experiments, it may then begin to be pronounced with such Exceptions as occur. By this way of Analysis we may proceed from Compounds to Ingredients, and from Motions to the Forces producing them; and in general, from Effects to their Causes, and from particular Causes to more general ones, till the Argument end in the most general. This is the Method of Analysis: And the Synthesis consists in assuming the Causes discover'd, and establish'd as Principles, and by them explaining the Phaenomena proceeding from them, and proving [i.e. testing] the Explanations.
In simple terms, scientific reasoning acts on if T then O, O so T, where T = Theory, and O = observations. This affirms the consequent, so the best that we can warrant is that If T, then O, in many cases O so T is empirically reliable. As opposed to: true as fact beyond reasonable doubt or correction. But the next issue is that observations need to be just that. Where, int eh case of the remote past of origins -- whether or no you are inclined to acknowledge the fact, it is plain -- we simply are not in a position to observe the actual remote terrestrial past of origins. We are therefore left to infer on best explanations in light of models of the past. That is, we observe apparent traces of the past of origins, and are interested to reconstruct the causal process that led to such. We therefore compare what we can observe in the present that allows us to identify empirically reliable causes of sufficiently similar outcomes, and we draw an inference on best explanation from the notion that like causes like. That inference is pivotally dependent on not a priori, ideologically excluding otherwise credible causal explanations. That is, we must not censor and beg questions. Unfortunately, that is exactly what has been done and is being done. That is why we read with deep concern, at sci edu level, in the July 2000 edict of the US based national Science Teachers Association Board, as follows:
The principal product of science is knowledge in the form of naturalistic concepts and the laws and theories related to those concepts . . . . Although no single universal step-by-step scientific method captures the complexity of doing science, a number of shared values and perspectives characterize a scientific approach to understanding nature. Among these are a demand for naturalistic explanations supported by empirical evidence that are, at least in principle, testable against the natural world. Other shared elements include observations, rational argument, inference, skepticism, peer review and replicability of work . . . . Science, by definition, is limited to naturalistic methods and explanations and, as such, is precluded from using supernatural elements in the production of scientific knowledge. [[NSTA, Board of Directors, July 2000.]
The highlights more than amply show cause for concern, as naturalism is in effect the imposition of a priori materialism as a worldview. Big questions are being begged, and naive children in school are being indoctrinated not educated. The US National Academy of Sciences, as the same link documents, has acted in the same vein (and they have also acted jointly with the NSTA to impose an ideologically loaded and unjustifiable redefinition of science itself that makes the same capital error). A similar pattern obtains elsewhere, this is a widespread problem. In that context, it is important to note what Lewontin said, regarding Sagan and other elite scientists, in his notorious January 1997 NYRB review as this is the most blatant, cat out of the bag, easily and publicly available remark:
the problem is to get them [--> the general public] to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world [--> notice the unjustified close association if not equating of the one with the other . . . ], the demons that exist only in their imaginations, and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth [[--> NB: this is a knowledge claim about knowledge and its possible sources, i.e. it is a claim in philosophy not science; it is thus self-refuting]. . . . To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists, it is self-evident [[--> actually, science and its knowledge claims are plainly not immediately and necessarily true on pain of absurdity, to one who understands them; this is another logical error, begging the question , confused for real self-evidence; whereby a claim shows itself not just true but true on pain of patent absurdity if one tries to deny it . . ] that the practices of [a priori materialistic, cf. below] science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality [--> Which, to a priori materialists is all of reality; self evident is here being misused, what is really going on is thinking in a materialistic, question begging circle confused for accurately seeing reality directly] . . . . It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we [--> the materialistic, Scientistic elites] are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [[--> another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [[--> i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. [“Billions and Billions of Demons,” NYRB, January 9, 1997. Emphases and comments added. NB: If you imagine that I have "quote mined" Lewontin here and/or that his appeal to Kant justifies the censorship being described, I suggest you read the fuller cite and notes here on.]
ID thinker Philip Johnson's retort in First Things, Nov that same year, was fully merited:
For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. [[Emphasis original] We might more accurately term them "materialists employing science." And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence. That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) "give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose." . . . . The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [[Emphasis added.] [[The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]
AVS, before you fire off a quip or two to dismiss and then go dragging red herrings off to strawmen soaked in ad hominems and set alight to cloud, confuse, poison and polarise the atmosphere, I think you need to understand that I have little expectation that you will be amenable to actual evidence and logic. This is on track record of all too many objectors to design thought we have seen here at UD over the years. Indeed, we have seen objectors who are perfectly willing to cling to the patent absurdities that immediately and blatantly result from rejecting self evident first principles of reason. Understand, that if you play at rhetorical talking point games while dodging the substantial issues, 2,000 or so onlookers per day will be able to see just what you are doing. (And others will take due note in future.) But, I am not quite finished yet, for there are two matters you have misrepresented or dodged that need some little correction. First, I suggest you read the list of papers here on, to see that scientists practicing in the design paradigm have done a fair amount of work, ideological barriers and career busting opposition notwithstanding. Your disrespectful dismissals have been both rude and wrong. Next, you have failed to address cogently the basic design inference on functionally specific complex organisation and associated information, FSCO/I as an instance of scientific inductive reasoning. That is, we observe a common phenomenon, FSCO/I, such as your own posts exhibit, much less mine, as do computer code and functionally organised entities such as clocks, vehicles, chemical processing plants and the like. It turns out that such functional organisation is amenable to reduction to a specific coded string based data structure as in AutoCAD files or the like. So, the coded string case is WLOG. We can observe that FSCO/I, especially digitally coded functionally specific complex info [dFSCI] the stuff familiar from computer files of all sorts, beyond 500 - 1,000 bits of complexity, has but one known, and routinely observed source: design. And, an analysis of search resources of solar system or observed cosmos will show that dFSCI beyond that threshold comes form a configuration space that is well beyond the reasonable search capacity of the available resources, on blind chance and/or mechanical necessity. This, in a context where the nature of FSCO/I, requiring specific, matched components arranged and coupled in a specific pattern to fit and function, sharply confines the clusters of functional configs relative to the non-functional ones. That is why we often speak of isolated islands of function in vast seas of non-function. So, the real challenge, at OOL and at origin of major body plans, is to bridge the config space to such zones, by blind watchmaker mechanisms. OOL is headlined, as it brings out that the von Neumann self replicating [vNSR], code based mechanism used in the living cell, is a case in point of FSCO/I to be explained. And explained on only observed physics and chemistry in realistic ponds, volcanic vents or comets etc. Where also, because of the handedness of many complex organic molecules, a key-lock fitting mechanism is critically dependent on the homochirality observed in living forms. That is, chemistry that gives us racemic mixes or mixes that are anything significantly different from homochirality, is out. Moreover, codes are a linguistic phenomenon, and algorithms that use coded information are a manifestation of purposeful, logical, skilled intelligence. So, you need to empirically account for the origin of codes and algorithms apart from design -- which is abundantly warranted as a cause, sufficient to explain also how these are matched to executing machinery and support machinery based on chicken-egg processes in the living cell. Also, bearing in mind the 500 - 1,000 bit threshold issue for blind searches in config spaces. The cell, obviously being one of the key traces from the actual past to be explained. Beyond this, for the origin of major multicellular body plans, we are looking at info increments -- per calculation on reasonable assumptions to get cell types, tissues and organs, and cross checked with genome sizes -- of 10 - 100 million bits, or more DOZENS of times over. The config spaces for such cases are vast, e.g 10 mn bits covers 9.05* 10^3,010,299 possibilities. 10^300 possibilities already vastly out weighs the search resources of the observed cosmos -- the only actually scientifically observed cosmos. In short there is excellent like causes like on reliable observation basis to infer that OOL and OO body plans are both best explained on design, because of the critical issue of FSCO/I. And, oh yes, it has been a common move for the past 150 years to suggest that because life forms self replicate they escape the issues and the comparison to technologies is a bad analogy. Wrong. As was outlined above -- and as Paley highlighted in Ch 2 of his 1804 work, but which has been studiously ignored for 150 years -- the origin of a vNSR based self replication mechanism is itself part of what needs to be cogently explained, and explained on the resources of physics and chemistry in a warm little pond or the like. The root of the tree of life is pivotal, and no roots, no shoots, branches or twigs and leaves. Design, as of inductive rights, is at the table from OOL, and it continues to be at the table when we discuss OO body plans, up to our own. Ideological question-begging, as exposed above, cannot change that. Okay, busy day ahead. Gotta go. KF kairosfocus
MF: It is a commonplace that scientism -- in effect, the assumption and ideology that "Science" defines what is knowable or reasonable -- has become a major plank of too much of formal and informal/popular science education. I have literally seen in a reference on critical thinking education published in the UK some years back now, the substitution of "scientific" for "logical." (And that was how kids were to be TAUGHT. The editors, if not the author, should have been publicly rebuked -- in the non-literal sense, they should have been pilloried.) Things are THAT bad. The same inherently self-refuting habit of thought demonstrably pervades major institutions of science and is multiplied by ideological a priori materialism, usually disguised under radical redefinitions of science and its methods. You may wish to challenge "self-refuting." The answer to which is, that the assertion/view that science is the only begetter of truth (AVS, we will get to you in a moment) is an epistemological, not a properly scientific claim; i.e. it is a non-scientific and in fact philosophical view that seeks to dismiss philosophical views. It is incapable of supporting itself, and in fact contradicts itself. What is being got at by Orwell -- whatever infelicities of expression you may have had fun poking holes in -- is that the prestige of Science is to become the rallying-flag for ideological scientism and associated a priori materialism, thence the chain of consequences outlined so aptly by Provine in that 1998 Darwin Day keynote at U Tenn (not coincidentally the state of the Scopes trial in Dayton):
Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent . . . . The first 4 implications are so obvious to modern naturalistic evolutionists that I will spend little time defending them. Human free will, however, is another matter. Even evolutionists have trouble swallowing that implication. I will argue that humans are locally determined systems that make choices. They have, however, no free will . . .
In short, utter dehumanisation [if you have no true responsible freedom you are unable to think for yourself with any credibility], the injection of utter amorality and radical manipulative relativism on ethics. Leading to a world that looks uncannily like the cynically manipulative world we increasingly inhabit. Orwell (whatever detailed critiques we can make on infelicities in his expressions) is materially right that there is a confusion of meanings and significance of science in our civilisation, and that this is freighted with all sorts of implications for those who are quite willing to manipulate us and our views and choices -- especially in the voting booth [which then grants great power to the manipulators and those they appoint to key offices, to do as they will . . . ] -- for their own ideological and power purposes. Further to this, the agendas of scientism and a priori, inescapably amoral and self refuting evolutionary materialism are inherently and demonstrably fallacious and destructive to the pivotal civilising worldview influences that underpin a decent and reasonable society. If we want a sounder foundation, we need to begin afresh, from the ground up, cf. here on. KF kairosfocus
Also of note, we now have evidence for photosynthetic life suddenly appearing on earth, as soon as water appeared on the earth, in the oldest sedimentary rocks ever found on earth.
The Sudden Appearance Of Photosynthetic Life On Earth - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4262918 U-rich Archaean sea-floor sediments from Greenland - indications of +3700 Ma oxygenic photosynthesis (2003) http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2004E&PSL.217..237R
But we have no prebiotic chemical signatures in the geologic record preceding that first life:
Dr. Hugh Ross - Origin Of Life Paradox (No prebiotic chemical signatures)- video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4012696
But photosynthetic life is exceedingly complex and, moreover, it requires a non-local', beyond space and time, cause to explain how photosynthesis is even possible:
Scientists unlock some key secrets of photosynthesis - July 2, 2012 Excerpt: "The photosynthetic system of plants is nature's most elaborate nanoscale biological machine," said Lakshmi. "It converts light energy at unrivaled efficiency of more than 95 percent compared to 10 to 15 percent in the current man-made solar technologies.,, "Photosystem II is the engine of life," Lakshmi said. "It performs one of the most energetically demanding reactions known to mankind, splitting water, with remarkable ease and efficiency.",,, "Water is a very stable molecule and it takes four photons of light to split water," she said. "This is a challenge for chemists and physicists around the world (to imitate) as the four-photon reaction has very stringent requirements." http://phys.org/news/2012-07-scientists-key-secrets-photosynthesis.html
At the 21:00 minute mark of the following video, Dr Suarez explains why photosynthesis needs a 'non-local', beyond space and time, cause to explain its effect:
Nonlocality of Photosynthesis - Antoine Suarez - video - 2012 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhMrrmlTXl4&feature=player_detailpage#t=1268s
AVS, as to quantum non-locality of photosynthesis, I have a beyond space and time cause to explain the non-locality of photosynthesis, do you? verse;
John 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
Music:
Steven Curtis Chapman - Lord of the Dance (Live) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDXbvMcMbU0
bornagain77
AVS you claim:
In fact, your friends here sometimes post about findings in the field and love to make it seem like scientists are arguing about how life came about. They’re not, what is really going on is just another small piece of the puzzle is being put on the table.
So is the origin of life model that they are not arguing about the RNA world hypothesis, or the metabolism first hypothesis, or perhaps the panspermia hypothesis championed by Crick and/or the recent 'we are all Martians' hypothesis?
Pssst! Don’t tell the creationists, but scientists don’t have a clue how life began By John Horgan | February 28, 2011 Excerpt: Scientists are having a hard time agreeing on when, where and—most important—how life first emerged on the earth. http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/2011/02/28/pssst-dont-tell-the-creationists-but-scientists-dont-have-a-clue-how-life-began/ Evolutionist Has Another Honest Moment as “Thorny Questions Remain” - Cornelius Hunter - July 2012 Excerpt: It's a chicken and egg question. Scientists are in disagreement over what came first -- replication, or metabolism. But there is a third part to the equation -- and that is energy. … You need enzymes to make ATP and you need ATP to make enzymes. The question is: where did energy come from before either of these two things existed? http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2012/07/evolutionist-has-another-honest-moment.html
Perhaps you just mean they are not arguing about whether or not it happened by naturalistic means, because they are certainly arguing amongst themselves about how life came about by naturalistic means. of note:
To Model the Simplest Microbe in the World, You Need 128 Computers - July 2012 Excerpt: Mycoplasma genitalium has one of the smallest genomes of any free-living organism in the world, clocking in at a mere 525 genes. That's a fraction of the size of even another bacterium like E. coli, which has 4,288 genes.,,, The bioengineers, led by Stanford's Markus Covert, succeeded in modeling the bacterium, and published their work last week in the journal Cell. What's fascinating is how much horsepower they needed to partially simulate this simple organism. It took a cluster of 128 computers running for 9 to 10 hours to actually generate the data on the 25 categories of molecules that are involved in the cell's lifecycle processes.,,, ,,the depth and breadth of cellular complexity has turned out to be nearly unbelievable, and difficult to manage, even given Moore's Law. The M. genitalium model required 28 subsystems to be individually modeled and integrated, and many critics of the work have been complaining on Twitter that's only a fraction of what will eventually be required to consider the simulation realistic.,,, http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/07/to-model-the-simplest-microbe-in-the-world-you-need-128-computers/260198/ The Theist holds the Intellectual High-Ground - March 2011 Excerpt: "To get a range on the enormous challenges involved in bridging the gaping chasm between non-life and life, consider the following: “The difference between a mixture of simple chemicals and a bacterium, is much more profound than the gulf between a bacterium and an elephant.” (Dr. Robert Shapiro, Professor Emeritus of Chemistry, NYU) http://www.faithfulnews.com/contents/view_content2/49631/rabbi-moshe-averick-the-theist-holds-the-intellectual-high-ground-apologetics-christian-apologetics-defending-gospel The Capabilities of Chaos and Complexity: David L. Abel - Null Hypothesis For Information Generation - 2009 To focus the scientific community’s attention on its own tendencies toward overzealous metaphysical imagination bordering on “wish-fulfillment,” we propose the following readily falsifiable null hypothesis, and invite rigorous experimental attempts to falsify it: "Physicodynamics cannot spontaneously traverse The Cybernetic Cut: physicodynamics alone cannot organize itself into formally functional systems requiring algorithmic optimization, computational halting, and circuit integration." A single exception of non trivial, unaided spontaneous optimization of formal function by truly natural process would falsify this null hypothesis. http://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/10/1/247/pdf Can We Falsify Any Of The Following Null Hypothesis (For Information Generation) 1) Mathematical Logic 2) Algorithmic Optimization 3) Cybernetic Programming 4) Computational Halting 5) Integrated Circuits 6) Organization (e.g. homeostatic optimization far from equilibrium) 7) Material Symbol Systems (e.g. genetics) 8) Any Goal Oriented bona fide system 9) Language 10) Formal function of any kind 11) Utilitarian work http://mdpi.com/1422-0067/10/1/247/ag
bornagain77
I had rather a lot to say about this so I put it in an OP on TSZ. However, two short points extracted from that: If someone has a political agenda that we would all be better off ruled by scientists then they have failed miserably. Our leaders are not scientists. They are for the most part humanities graduates or lawyers. And pseudo-science is as strong as ever. Vincent is concerned about the teaching of evolution, climate-change and sexual health for kindergartners.  But does he oppose the teaching of radioactivity, or the stars, or the physiology of our own bodies i.e. the things which concerned Orwell? He is confusing the issue over what is science with whether it should be taught. Mark Frank
Alright well let me hit you with some knowledge and we'll see how you do. Experiments have been done that produce amino acids from inorganic matter (and it wasn't just Miller-Urey)as well as simple carbohydrates and phospholipids. It has been demonstrated that phospholipids can form lipid bilayers on there own due to the hydrophobic effect, simple protein lattices with catalytic activity have been produced simply by dropping amino acids onto hot sand. Experiments have been done that build functional proteins out of just five different amino acids. Simple metabolic activity can be carried out as long as there is a membrane separating the extracellular environment from the intracellular environment. There are numerous simple nucleotides that can be polymerized and later give way to nucelic acids structures similar to those we see today. The list goes on and on. In fact, your friends here sometimes post about findings in the field and love to make it seem like scientists are arguing about how life came about. They're not, what is really going on is just another small piece of the puzzle is being put on the table. Any questions? AVS
And models are just stories without some way to test them. And all experiments of abiogenesis are complete and utter failures. So Scientific American is not a valid source for you? Apparently you only accept pro-Darwin sources when they aren't hostile witnesses. Anyways, its about an article he wrote in their magazine 20 years ago and how his article still holds true today. That's no progress for experimental abiogenesis. Storytelling may have improved, but real facts have only got worse with the more we learn about the complexity of life. He's a science writer. How about attacking the arguments and not the source? sixthbook
Oh yes, the "but we didn't see it happen" argument. Of course. I almost forgot where I was, thanks for reminding me. Anyways, unfortunately for you, you are wrong. While we may not be able to witness the first proto-cell that gave rise to all of life, we can model how it would have most likely happened. And that's exactly what scientists have done. Once, again, get your scientific information from a scientific source, not from a blog. AVS
You described a mythological protocell (which we have never seen btw) even when Scientific American (that's some real scientists there, not just stupid creationists ;) admits that abiogenesis doesn't actually have any evidence supporting it. http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/2011/02/28/pssst-dont-tell-the-creationists-but-scientists-dont-have-a-clue-how-life-began/ sixthbook
I just gave you a quick rundown of the first proto-cell Cant, did you miss it, ignore it, or did your scientific illiteracy get in the way already? AVS
If you'd like sixth, I can talk about the possibility of multiple cells arising and forming life's single common ancestor but there's really nothing to suggest that is what happened. Also, you guys are even receptive of one cell forming, nevermind multiple cells, so i figured I'd stick with one. You have no idea what you are talking about so I suggest you just stay out of this one. AVS
He asked me to define it because he knows that I have the scientific definition of it, whereas he has the UD bullshit definition that they twist around and spoon-feed to you guys.
Just when I thought we had a breakthrough and were on the verge of having an adult conversation. Oh well. I will check in the morning to see if you've got something productive to say. cantor
The demonstration was presented over the last three years of learning and my own research. As for "careful research and argument" from this blog, well there doesn't seem to be any. I am scientifically literate, I can tell a cogent argument from one that is not, especially when it comes to science. Thanks though. AVS
Keeping it simple and focusing only on a single cell? If only life was as simple as you wish it was so that abiogenesis would actually work. sixthbook
"Its probable effect on the average human being would be to narrow the range of his thoughts and make him more than ever contemptuous of such knowledge as he did not possess" - Brilliant. This seems to fit AVS very well. Oozing with contempt, he requires no demonstration from those he already agrees with and deems the careful research and argument laid out on this blog unworthy of any serious time and consideration. bb
Evolution occurs at its most basic level, through natural selection of random mutations. While it could have been a small number of early proto-cells that formed and morphed into the single common ancestor, I try to keep it simple and focus on the single cell. This single common ancestor was a membrane-bound proto-cell with extremely simple protein lattices and eventually simple nucleic acids. AVS
He asked me to define it because he knows that I have the scientific definition of it, whereas he has the UD bullshit definition that they twist around and spoon-feed to you guys. AVS
Evolution is the process by which the diversity of life that we see today arose from a single common ancestor. Maybe a god created the universe, maybe not. But after that there is no need for a god and no evidence for a god.
Finally, we're making some progress. So, evolution to you means unguided, purposeless descent with modification from a single common ancestor. No teleology. What evidence convinces you that it was a single common ancestor, and not 2 or 3 or N distinct separate common ancestors? What is your understanding of what this single common ancestor actually was? What evidence convinces you that this (living) single common ancestor arose from non-living matter as a result of the presently-known laws of physics and chemistry? Don't wave your hands and get all emotional. Just state what you think. cantor
AVS: You seriously believe that he asked you to define evolution because he doesn't know what it is? sixthbook
If you knew anything about evolution beseides what your friends tell you one here, I wouldn't need to do this. Evolution is the process by which the diversity of life that we see today arose from a single common ancestor. Maybe a god created the universe, maybe not. But after that there is no need for a god and no evidence for a god. AVS
I am telling you that evolution has nothing to do with “materialism.”
And I am telling you that the above statement is meaningless unless you articulate what you mean by "evolution" in that context. And it's why I asked you to clarify what role you would allow a "god" to play in the history of life when you said "You can accept evolution and believe in a god". cantor
Oh my, you are so funny Mr. Cant. You do realize that you now sound like a tween yourself right? Once again your infinite wisdom/intelligence/intuition is showing....not. I'd bet anything that I am 3 for 3 on those in comparison to you. Sixth, if you want to learn, get yourself into college. AVS
I don’t know much about the science behind the beginning of the universe.
There's a lot you don't know much about yet. The important thing is, are you willing to learn? cantor
Not even sounding like a teenager now. More like a tween. Does your Momma know your are hiding under the covers with a flashlight playing with your iPad cantor
AVS, the how about stop resorting to consensus and vague elephant hurling and instead make some valid arguments? Hint, valid arguments means positive evidence for evolution, not theological arguments like "God wouldn't have done it this way!" sixthbook
Sixth, you have now confirmed that you have no idea how science works, and that you probably have no scientific background. You have no idea what you are talking about, and you get your scientific information from all the wrong sources. You are exactly the type of person UD is looking for: scientifically illiterate and willing to believe anything that anyone says. Cant, I have my own opinions as does everyone else. I am telling you that evolution has nothing to do with "materialism." If I had to, I could inject a god into the origin of the universe and that would be it, but that is mostly because I don't know much about the science behind the beginning of the universe. AVS
I was just letting BA know how childish his examples are. He seems to think Genesis provides an accurate description of the big bang. You may be older than me, but you certainly don't seem to be more insightful, intelligent, or wise than me. I know a lot of adults who are complete idiots. I assume you have little to no knowledge in the fields of Biology, and yet you try to talk about Biology; you're not making a good case for your self-proclaimed wisdom, old man. AVS
Could I be more specifc? Why don't you go talk to the Pope since the Catholic church has accepted the overwhelming amount of evidence behind evolution.
I guess that's your way of saying "I really haven't thought this through for myself, and I can't articulate what role I would allow a 'god' to play in the history of life. It's too complicated for me." cantor
It certainly speaks of spontaneous creation. I gotta agree with you though AVS that it doesn't align with the Big Bang very well, especially when you think about the order of creation. Whereas the Bible says earth then light then sun and stars the Big Bang says stars then sun then earth. Not to mention inconsistencies in order of creation of the plants and animals and such. I gotta agree with Cantor on believing in God and evolution. It's bad theology because it takes away from God's omnipotence and holiness and sinlessness and its bad "science" (if by science you mean naturalism). AVS, you say I clearly have no idea what science is. Id like to respectfully disagree. Science is looking at the evidence, conducting experiments, and drawing conclusions from such things. I've looked at the evidence for evolution, read through talk origins and found the ID arguments to be more convincing. The experiments like Lenski's helped to show to me the complete failure of evolution to account for essentially anything. Science isn't about blindly following authority, its following the evidence to its logical conclusion, whether you may like that conclusion or not. sixthbook
I mean really? Cmon, Oh yeah dude, Get real.
This is teenage-talk. If you are a teenager, you are conversing with people who have far more life experience than you and who are years ahead of you in knowledge, insight, and wisdom. cantor
Nobody likes Nickelback, and my life is pretty awesome as it is thanks. Night <3 Could I be more specifc? Why don't you go talk to the Pope since the Catholic church has accepted the overwhelming amount of evidence behind evolution. AVS
You can accept evolution and believe in a god Could you be more specific? How much of a role are you prepared to allow this "god" to play in the history of life, before you start calling people idiots? cantor
Goodnite Mr. AVS, may God blow your socks off with a miracle. Nickelback - Lullaby http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_wfoY56JGc bornagain77
Oh so now people telling stories, and ignoring details to fit ideas together is OK Mr. BA? Weren't you trashing scientists for telling stories about the origin of life five minutes ago? I mean really? Cmon, how much detail does Genesis go into? "Let there be light"....Oh yeah dude, that sounds like the big bang for sure. Get real. AVS
Oops Cantor, I meant to type climate change. Thanks for alerting me. Too bad i can't edit my comment. sixthbook
'Unfortunately, there is no evidence for the existence of a god,' Hmmm,, The best data we have [concerning the Big Bang] are exactly what I would have predicted, had I nothing to go on but the five books of Moses, the Psalms, the bible as a whole. Dr. Arno Penzias, Nobel Laureate in Physics - co-discoverer of the Cosmic Background Radiation - as stated to the New York Times on March 12, 1978 “Certainly there was something that set it all off,,, I can’t think of a better theory of the origin of the universe to match Genesis” Robert Wilson – Nobel laureate – co-discover Cosmic Background Radiation http://www.evidenceforchristianity.org/index.php?option=com_custom_content&task=view&id=3594 “There is no doubt that a parallel exists between the big bang as an event and the Christian notion of creation from nothing.” George Smoot – Nobel laureate in 2006 for his work on COBE "Now we see how the astronomical evidence supports the biblical view of the origin of the world. The details differ, but the essential elements in the astronomical and biblical accounts of Genesis are the same: the chain of events leading to man commenced suddenly and sharply at a definite moment in time, in a flash of light and energy." Robert Jastrow – Founder of NASA’s Goddard Institute – Pg.15 ‘God and the Astronomers’ ,,, 'And if you're curious about how Genesis 1, in particular, fairs. Hey, we look at the Days in Genesis as being long time periods, which is what they must be if you read the Bible consistently, and the Bible scores 4 for 4 in Initial Conditions and 10 for 10 on the Creation Events' Hugh Ross - Evidence For Intelligent Design Is Everywhere; video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4347236 "I now believe that the universe was brought into existence by an infinite intelligence. I believe that the universe's intricate laws manifest what scientists have called the Mind of God. I believe that life and reproduction originate in a divine Source. Why do I believe this, given that I expounded and defended atheism for more than a half century? The short answer is this: this is the world picture, as I see it, that has emerged from modern science." Anthony Flew - world's leading intellectual atheist for most of his adult life until a few years shortly before his death The Case for a Creator - Lee Strobel (Nov. 25, 2012) - video http://www.saddleback.com/mc/m/ee32d/ bornagain77
Sixth, you have no idea how science works apparently. AVS
Did Lewontin specifically associate evolution and materialism? No. He is talking about science in general and it's inherent bias toward materialism. Once again, you are sensationalizing "materialism" to try to make evolution seem like it opposes religion. It does not. You can accept evolution and believe in a god, as many do. Unfortunately, there is no evidence for the existence of a god, whereas there is a large amount of evidence that supports evolution. But hey, you whatever makes you happy bud. AVS
My rejection of evolution has led to my skepticism of evolution.
? You rejected evolution, and then became skeptical about it ? cantor
Totally agree on consensus. My rejection of evolution has led to my skepticism of evolution. Once I started to look at the facts myself rather than just listen to what I was told I immediately assume now that someone's "science" is probably false if they have to resort to consensus to bolster their argument. That being said, I've been meaning to really investigate global warming/climate change for myself. It's just so hard to find sources that aren't so incredibly alarmist. sixthbook
Look buddy,
I am not your "buddy".
it’s not a bluff, I assure you.
Don't "assure" me. Post 3 observable facts supporting your contention that blind purposeless evolution is a true explanation for the history of life. Otherwise you are bluffing.
My point about the phrase “materialism” is that it is an idea you guys like to sensationalize... (words you guys on here love to associate with evolution when they have nothing to do with it).
Does "you guys" include Richard Lewontin? Billions and billions of demons, The New York Review, p. 31, 9 January 1997 cantor
Like I said, Stan, you guys aren't debunking a thing here. You're pointing out that two philosophers added their name to a meaningless list. AVS
here jstanley01
Meanwhile, as the true believers of the Church of Darwin blather on mindlessly, elsewhere on UD the debunking chugs on (in this instance by atheists)... jstanley01
Look buddy, it's not a bluff, I assure you. You obviously have never opened a biology book so I don't really see any point in trying to explain things to you. You seem like an idiot from your conversation with Alan Fox anyways. My point about the phrase "materialism" is that it is an idea you guys like to sensationalize. Evolution deals in scientific terms such as "genes" and "speciation" and "last common ancestor" (you know, those biology words you never bothered to learn) not philosophical ideas such as "materialism" (words you guys on here love to associate with evolution when they have nothing to do with it). AVS
@44 "...you look like an idiot" you look like a child throwing a temper tantrum. unable to reason. unable to follow a logical argument. unable to articulate a defense of your position. “All we can do is be sensitive to the anger and note that it’s odd for people who value reason so highly to make such large concessions to emotion” --Laura Keynes cantor
@43: "...no, I can’t" don't come on here with your "mountains of evidence" bluff and mock others and then try to bluster your way out of it when challenged. it simply won't work. @43 "not once did I hear the phrase “materialism.”" it almost sounds like you are proud of your ignorance. if you don't understand the concept of materialism, it's no wonder you don't understand the connection to QM. cantor
BA, look, few people understand the basics of Quantum Mechanics, I doubt you are one of them. No one is even certain how quantum entanglement works right now, I suggest you stop trying to use it to back up your "debunking" of evolution when nobody even knows what it really is, you look like an idiot. AVS
It's the "theory of evolution" and no, I can't because no matter what evidence I present you, you are going to kick and scream about how I am assuming "materialism." I know how conversations go on here, I've been here numerous times before. What's funny is that I've read about evolution, taken classes on evolution, and attended seminars on evolution; and not once did I hear the phrase "materialism." That is, until I came here. AVS
AVS, quantum entanglement requires a beyond space and time (spooky action at a distance) cause to explain its effect. Finding quantum entanglement within proteins and DNA means that a beyond space and time cause must be invoked to explain life as well. This holds whether or not common descent is true or not. But since it seems that you have already seen this evidence before and find it wanting for whatever personal reason, let's go one step further and point out that quantum mechanics also requires consciousness and free will as starting axioms:
What Does Quantum Physics Have to Do with Free Will? – By Antoine Suarez – July 22, 2013 Excerpt: What is more, recent experiments are bringing to light that the experimenter’s free will and consciousness should be considered axioms (founding principles) of standard quantum physics theory. So for instance, in experiments involving “entanglement” (the phenomenon Einstein called “spooky action at a distance”), to conclude that quantum correlations of two particles are nonlocal (i.e. cannot be explained by signals traveling at velocity less than or equal to the speed of light), it is crucial to assume that the experimenter can make free choices, and is not constrained in what orientation he/she sets the measuring devices. To understand these implications it is crucial to be aware that quantum physics is not only a description of the material and visible world around us, but also speaks about non-material influences coming from outside the space-time.,,, https://www.bigquestionsonline.com/content/what-does-quantum-physics-have-do-free-will
Let's also see how free will ultimately plays out in the Christian worldview (since free will is considered illusory in atheistic materialism).
Is God Good? (Free will and the problem of evil) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rfd_1UAjeIA If God, Why Evil? (1 of 4) – Norm Geisler – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSTzJ-kbfkc “There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell." - C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce
Others may laugh, scoff and fight at ever humbling themselves before God and accepting reconciliation with Him through Christ (propitiation), but as for myself, I choose to be reunited with God through Christ (if He will take me) instead of being eternally separated from Him and all that is, or can ever be, good!
Why Hell is so Horrible? - Bill Weise - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hd_so3wPw8 Third Day - Trust In Jesus - music http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BtaCeJYqZA
A few assorted supplemental notes:
Alain Aspect and Anton Zeilinger by Richard Conn Henry - Physics Professor - John Hopkins University Excerpt: Why do people cling with such ferocity to belief in a mind-independent reality? It is surely because if there is no such reality, then ultimately (as far as we can know) mind alone exists. And if mind is not a product of real matter, but rather is the creator of the "illusion" of material reality (which has, in fact, despite the materialists, been known to be the case, since the discovery of quantum mechanics in 1925), then a theistic view of our existence becomes the only rational alternative to solipsism (solipsism is the philosophical idea that only one's own mind is sure to exist). (Dr. Henry's referenced experiment and paper - “An experimental test of non-local realism” by S. Gröblacher et. al., Nature 446, 871, April 2007 - “To be or not to be local” by Alain Aspect, Nature 446, 866, April 2007 http://henry.pha.jhu.edu/aspect.html 'Afterlife' feels 'even more real than real,' researcher says - Wed April 10, 2013 Excerpt: "If you use this questionnaire ... if the memory is real, it's richer, and if the memory is recent, it's richer," he said. The coma scientists weren't expecting what the tests revealed. "To our surprise, NDEs were much richer than any imagined event or any real event of these coma survivors," Laureys reported. The memories of these experiences beat all other memories, hands down, for their vivid sense of reality. "The difference was so vast," he said with a sense of astonishment. Even if the patient had the experience a long time ago, its memory was as rich "as though it was yesterday," Laureys said. http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/09/health/belgium-near-death-experiences/ Near-Death Experiences: Putting a Darwinist's Evidentiary Standards to the Test - Dr. Michael Egnor - October 15, 2012 Excerpt: Indeed, about 20 percent of NDE's are corroborated, which means that there are independent ways of checking about the veracity of the experience. The patients knew of things that they could not have known except by extraordinary perception -- such as describing details of surgery that they watched while their heart was stopped, etc. Additionally, many NDE's have a vividness and a sense of intense reality that one does not generally encounter in dreams or hallucinations.,,, The most "parsimonious" explanation -- the simplest scientific explanation -- is that the (Near Death) experience was real. Tens of millions of people have had such experiences. That is tens of millions of more times than we have observed the origin of species (or origin of life, or origin of a protein), which is never.,,, The materialist reaction, in short, is unscientific and close-minded. NDE's show fellows like Coyne at their sneering unscientific irrational worst. Somebody finds a crushed fragment of a fossil and it's earth-shaking evidence. Tens of million of people have life-changing spiritual experiences and it's all a big yawn. Note: Dr. Egnor is professor and vice-chairman of neurosurgery at the State University of New York at Stony Brook. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/10/near_death_expe_1065301.html "The laws of relativity have changed timeless existence from a theological claim to a physical reality. Light, you see, is outside of time, a fact of nature proven in thousands of experiments at hundreds of universities. I don’t pretend to know how tomorrow can exist simultaneously with today and yesterday. But at the speed of light they actually and rigorously do. Time does not pass." Richard Swenson - More Than Meets The Eye, Chpt. 12 'When you die, you enter eternity. It feels like you were always there, and you will always be there. You realize that existence on Earth is only just a brief instant.' Dr. Ken Ring - has extensively studied Near Death Experiences 'Earthly time has no meaning in the spirit realm. There is no concept of before or after. Everything - past, present, future - exists simultaneously.' - Kimberly Clark Sharp - NDE Experiencer 'There is no way to tell whether minutes, hours or years go by. Existence is the only reality and it is inseparable from the eternal now.' - John Star - NDE Experiencer
Music and verse:
I Refuse - Josh Wilson http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=7PKK7PNX John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
bornagain77
@39: "Evolution relies on the collection of scientific facts, observations, etc. being done by scientists around the world." Post#40 @39: As for QM, I see you’ve been reading too many of BA’s posts yourself. Maybe you can explain how QM is relevant to evolution, Mr. Cant… Post#37 cantor
Life is great when the facts support you. I think you are bluffing. Can you name 3 observable facts which support the thesis of blind purposeless evolution, without assuming materialism? cantor
No. Evolution relies on the collection of scientific facts, observations, etc. being done by scientists around the world. As for QM, I see you've been reading too many of BA's posts yourself. Maybe you can explain how QM is relevant to evolution, Mr. Cant... AVS
You either accept evolution because you have studied the facts, or you deny it because it doesn’t go along with the little world you like to live in. Logical fallacy. False dichotomy. cantor
@35: I can’t wait for BA to come busting through the doors with his quantum entanglement quotes, of which I’m still waiting for him to explain how they are relevant to evolution (without a mile-long copy-paste essay).
It sounds like you are seeking the "for Dummies" version. 1) blind purposeless evolution rests heavily on the assumption of materialism 2) recent experimental discoveries in QM cast serious doubt about materialism cantor
re: AF @20 In post #4 at 4:12pm Barb posted this:
The problem, Mr. Fox, is with the “observed fact” portion of the quote, as duly noted by Michael Denton:
Then in post #5 at 4:17pm you posted this:
Not really. We, you, I, anyone can, if sufficiently motivated, check facts for themselves. Does water run uphill? Is the Earth flat? It’s not difficult.
At the time of your post #5, there was no mention of fish growing legs and walking out of the ocean. So it wasn't at all clear what point you were attempting to make. We are not mind readers here. cantor
I can't wait for BA to come busting through the doors with his quantum entanglement quotes, of which I'm still waiting for him to explain how they are relevant to evolution (without a mile-long copy-paste essay). AVS
Ah yes, the good ol' "nobody's seen it happen" argument. Thanks for some more masterfully-crafted, intelligent-sounding psycho-babble from UD. AVS
No you are, lol... :) jstanley01
Ah yes, the subtlety and scholarly detail of a five year-old. AVS
It is worth underscoring a capital fact that is too often missed or dismissed by evolutionary materialist advocates flying the flag of Big-S Science (and BTW AVS, your ad hominems are both wrong and rude), The matter is simple:
No human being, scientist or otherwise has actually observed the remote past of origins.
Period. The most that we can properly say, is that we have constructed models of the past of origins based on things we infer to be traces from that past. And, we project into that model past, dynamics, rates and processes we do observe in the present, which we believe give plausibly reliable consequences that are similar to the suggested traces. Inductive logic tells us the limitations of scientific reasoning on experiments in the present. (The two revolutions in Physics in scarce 300 years stand in undeniable testimony to that.) As I once got into a lot of trouble with our colonial overlords for here on the matter of risks being run with volcanoes, OBSERVATIONAL sciences are less reliable still. (My concerns were proved right by the event, didn't stop some powerful folks from painting a target on my back.) When it comes to that body plan origin level macroevolution too often presented as being as factually certain as the orbiting of the planets around Sol, we have precisely zero actual observations of the origin of body plans, much less by the suggested mechanisms. Worse, we do have considerable -- billions of cases -- reliable observation on the only observed source for functionally specific complex info required for novel body plans and OOL. This is backed up by needle in the haystack analyses, and the verdict is plain. Indeed, simple. Only intelligence is known and analytically plausible as a source of FSCO/I. The problem is not that we do not know the facts, but that the facts that have mounted up since the elucidation of the nature of DNA and related operations in the cell since 1953 -- sixty years now -- cut clean across evolutionary materialist scientism. So, we face ideological opposition from an entrenched reigning orthodoxy. KF kairosfocus
AVS, simply put, your assertions are wrong.
AVS, surely you have overlooked the subtlety and scholarly detail in jstanley's argument. Please make an extra effort and parse it. It's a model that is often imitated by IDers, but rarely surpassed.. Daniel King
And this is coming from who? An expert on the topic? No. Really? Is that all you can come up with? "NO You're wrong." I couldn't have asked for a better example of UD's impotence. AVS
AVS, simply put, your assertions are wrong. jstanley01
Orwell's characterization of the scientific method, "a method of thought which obtains verifiable results by reasoning logically from observed fact," is not very accurate. In its purest form, it is more like a several step process: 1. Observe phenomena, including the results of experiments. 2. Formulate an hypothesis aimed at explaining those observations. This is not a logical operation. Rather, it is a pure creative act. 3. Using logic, often in the form of mathematical operations, check whether the hypothesis implies the observed results from step 1. 4. If so, draw further conclusions from the hypothesis which can then be checked by observation and/or experiment. These would be predictions of the hypothesis. If not, go to step 6. 5. If many such observations and experimental results confirm the predictions, the hypothesis can be upgraded to the status of a theory. 6. If not, decide whether the hypothesis can be modified so that all existing observations and/or experimental results can then be concluded from it or whether it should simply be abandoned. This, again, involves creativity. And so on... This methodology can only be successfully applied to the investigation of phenomena that obey some kind of law like behavior. There are many areas of inquiry where it is simply inapplicable, for example questions of aesthetics, ethics, or epistemology. It is also an inappropriate method for the study of the nature of mind, in spite of what many psychologists and neurologists would like to believe, since an essential element of mind is creativity, and creativity by its very nature is unpredictable, that is, inherently not subject to law like behavior. It is creativity, incidentally, which is what gives minds the ability to produce CSI, which we all do effortlessly and repeatedly throughout every day of our lives. Every post in this thread is an example of that. Bruce David
No, "out there" as in books, articles, journals, PhD dissertations, etc. etc. Nothing is "debunked" here at UD or any place like it because you guys don't falsify anything. You guys don't DO anything actually. You're just a webpage full of unscientific psycho-babble that you feed to your laymen audience. Life is great when the facts support you. Thanks for asking. AVS
It was hailed as a “living fossil.”
Yes, well, that was misleading. Ceolocanths (or rather the two extant species) are modern animals, as modern as human beings. But they are (if evolution is true) descended over 360 million years from fossil ancestors who are not much different. Phylogenetic research has thrown light on details of the evolutionary pathway. Alan Fox
AVS @ 22:
The scientific evidence behind the theory is out there...
"Out there," like some unidentifiable spot in the multiverse somewhere? As far as the observable cosmos goes, this assertion is cogently debunked at UD and elsewhere on a regular basis. So what to do? Keep asserting it! of course. And don't forget the ad hominems or self-congratulatory rants or deprecating jibes as you do so. They make it all so much fun! Life when you've got "the consensus" behind you is just about all sunshine and rainbows, ain't it? jstanley01
Alan @ 7: I agree that we should examine the evidence without prejudice or bias. But remember, bias exists both ways: Lewontin famously stated that scientists have an a priori commitment to materialism, and as you pointed out, biblical literalists have their own biases. Coelacanths aren't really missing links, though. It was hailed as a “living fossil.” It was also called the “missing link” between fishes and the first land animals, since it had features resembling lungs and rudimentary legs. “Today, however, there is a growing consensus among evolutionary biologists who have studied living specimens that coelacanths are not missing links,” says The Washington Post. The Post cites the British journal Nature as indicating that the “coelacanth features putatively linking it to land animals are probably only coincidentally similar. . . . Living coelacanths turned out to have no lungs.” Barb
No one "asks you to believe in evolution." The scientific evidence behind the theory is out there, sometimes you may be lucky enough to have some of it presented to you by someone who knows what they are talking about; either way its not a "belief." You either accept evolution because you have studied the facts, or you deny it because it doesn't go along with the little world you like to live in. AVS
StuartHarris @17
Included in today’s recognition of science is the general opinion that its activities must be peer reviewed and government funded. This has led to all sorts of nonsense being called science.
An old boys club that gets you access to free skittles wrung out of Wally World workers' paychecks via an IRS gun to their heads. Hey, don't knock the system. Those skeptic blogs don't run themselves, don't ya' know. Gotta fund 'em somehow, 'cause they sure as the heck don't fund themselves. jstanley01
We are not mind readers here.
I often get the impression that posters here, you among them, think they are. But no matter. Barb said:
We can’t watch the first fish grow legs and walk out of the ocean, as Denton noted.
While we don't have a video of the event we do have all sorts of fragmentary remains, like modern survivors: mudskippers and ceolocanths. The links were to more information for those interested. (Yes, I'm an optimist!). Alan Fox
In the remote chance that you might be interested in what I think, rather than you assuming you know what I think
Your habit of posting one-word comments like "lobe-finned fish" makes it rather difficult to decode what point you are trying to make, let alone what you think. We are not mind readers here. cantor
Why would you?
...start with the preconceived idea that “the cosmos is all there is, or was, or will ever be.
In the remote chance that you might be interested in what I think, rather than you assuming you know what I think: I actually have no idea about life, the universe and everything. But that still does not stop me from being curious. That curiosity leads me to looking at what is emerging in scientific discovery. That doesn't require preconceived notions. Alan Fox
Included in today's recognition of science is the general opinion that its activities must be peer reviewed and government funded. This has led to all sorts of nonsense being called science. StuartHarris
Perhaps you could but why would you?
I don't. Why would you? cantor
I meant give up trying to guess what you meant
you probably should
I did. cantor
…or you can start with the preconceived idea that “the cosmos is all there is, or was, or will ever be”
Perhaps you could but why would you? Alan Fox
if you can’t see the connection, you probably should
I meant give up trying to guess what you meant. cantor
or you can start with a preconceived idea like the Earth is 10,000 years old or there was a global flood ...or you can start with the preconceived idea that "the cosmos is all there is, or was, or will ever be" cantor
OK, I give up. What is the connection between that and Barb’s post?
Wel, I guess, if you can't see the connection, you probably should. ;) Alan Fox
Lobe-finned fish Alan Fox
Not really. We, you, I, anyone can, if sufficiently motivated, check facts for themselves. Does water run uphill? Is the Earth flat? It’s not difficult. OK, I give up. What is the connection between that and Barb's post? cantor
Mudskippers Alan Fox
Barb, please call me Alan. No indeed we can't go back and see what happened like watching a video. On the other hand there are clues. You can either look at what evidence exists and work from there, or you can start with a preconceived idea like the Earth is 10,000 years old or there was a global flood Alan Fox
We can check facts for themselves, Mr. Fox, but you're moving the goalposts. We can't watch the first fish grow legs and walk out of the ocean, as Denton noted. Barb
The problem, Mr. Fox, is with the “observed fact” portion of the quote,...
Not really. We, you, I, anyone can, if sufficiently motivated, check facts for themselves. Does water run uphill? Is the Earth flat? It's not difficult. Alan Fox
The problem, Mr. Fox, is with the "observed fact" portion of the quote, as duly noted by Michael Denton: "Darwin’s model of evolution . . . , being basically a theory of historical reconstruction, . . . is impossible to verify by experiment or direct observation as is normal in science . . . Moreover, the theory of evolution deals with a series of unique events, the origin of life, the origin of intelligence and so on. Unique events are unrepeatable and cannot be subjected to any sort of experimental investigation.” (Evolution: A Theory in Crisis, by Michael Denton) Barb
'But does all this mean that the general public should not be more scientifically educated? On the contrary! All it means is that scientific education for the masses will do little good, and probably a lot of harm, if it simply boils down to more physics, more chemistry, more biology, etc., to the detriment of literature and history. Its probable effect on the average human being would be to narrow the range of his thoughts and make him more than ever contemptuous of such knowledge as he did not possess: and his political reactions would probably be somewhat less intelligent than those of an illiterate peasant who retained a few historical memories and a fairly sound aesthetic sense.' Brilliant, vjt. Especially, the emboldened, last sentence of the quote, after the colon: Axel
I don't think Einstein and Planck did too badly. Well, for Creationists, anyway.... Gotta cut 'em a little slack. Axel
I have to defend a man who believed in freedom and equality so strongly he was prepared to fight against Spanish fascism.
...a method of thought which obtains verifiable results by reasoning logically from observed fact.
What's to argue with here, unless you are a Creationist? Facts first, then explanations. Alan Fox

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