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[Offtopic:] A Different Culture War

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Muslim Gang Rapes and the Aussie Riots
By Sharon Lapkin
FrontPageMagazine.com | December 15, 2005

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=20535

In Australia this week amidst anger over an Islamic man’s rape conviction and the bashing of two Aussie life savers, working-class locals erupted in a rampage of anger and brawling in some of the worst racial riots in decades. But there is more to the story than is being repeated in the American mainstream media….

Four days after he set foot in Australia, the rape spree began. And during his sexual assault trial in a New South Wales courtroom, the Pakistani man began to berate one of his tearful 14-year-old victims because she had the temerity to shake her head at his testimony.

But she had every reason to express her disgust. After taking an oath on the Qur’an, the man – known only as MSK – told the court he had committed four attacks on girls as young as 13 because they had no right to say “no.” They were not covering their face or wearing a headscarf, and therefore, the rapist proclaimed: “I’m not doing anything wrong.”

MSK is already serving a 22-year jail term for leading his three younger brothers in a gang rape of two other young Sydney girls in 2002. In his own defence, he argued that his cultural background, was responsible for his crimes.

And he is right.

In some parts of Pakistan, sexual assault – including gang rape – is officially sanctified as a legitimate form of enforcing the social value system.

One village council recently ordered that five young girls should be “abducted, raped or murdered” for refusing to be treated as chattel. The girls were aged between six and thirteen when they were married without their knowledge, to pay a family debt.

And when Mukhtar Mai’s 12-year-old brother was alleged to have committed an offence in a small Pakistani farming village, the village council ordered that his sister be gang-raped. So, she was taken to a hut where four men repeatedly assaulted her.

According to the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan there were 804 cases of such officially orchestrated sexual assault in 2000, and 434 of these were gang rapes. And if that isn’t bad enough, the victims of these atrocities are then expected to commit suicide because rape victims bring irreparable shame upon their family.

So as MSK committed his acts of rape while visiting Australia, he was simply perpetuating his own cultural heritage. He hails from a society where officially sanctioned sexual violence is commonly employed as a means to enforce the subservience of women.

And this is where two fundamental tenets of the modern Left clash: the irresistible force of cultural relativism collides with the immovable object of gender equality. But in the 21st century it is the latter that must prevail.

The laissez faire attitudes of cultural relativism are unacceptable in modern society. Female genital mutilation is not some quaint tribal custom that we are bound to respect: it is barbarism, pure and simple.

Yet many Western leftists habitually excuse these crimes against women in order to maintain political solidarity with their allies in the Islamic world. After all, it would be tough to make common cause with Muslim groups in the antiwar movement if Progressives began to criticize the practice of polygamy.

But along with Islamic immigration to the West have come Third World value systems regarding the treatment of women. We must not be seduced by the false tenets of cultural relativism into a toleration of forced marriages, officially sanctioned rape, and honour killings.

Australia’s unique brand of multiculturalism confers both rights and obligations: while cultural and linguistic diversity are to be cherished, every Australian must subscribe to a single standard of human rights. Australians must forcefully repudiate the corruption of the multicultural idea that would condone crimes against women and support jihadism.

The dangers of cultural relativism became evident Down Under last weekend when long-festering ethnic tensions erupted into violence at Cronulla Beach near Sydney. The trouble began when a group of Middle Eastern men were assaulted by mobs of angry locals. The local Member of Parliament, Bruce Baird MP, claimed the public outcry was revenge for the Bali bombings and September 11.

But Baird also explained that a series of high profile rapes in the area had spurred locals on and that a group of Middle Eastern men had attacked two Aussie lifesavers the previous weekend. Locals claimed to the media after the riots that they were sick of Lebanese Muslim gangs calling their daughters and wives names, and throwing cigarette butts at them.

Then neo-Nazis showed up in a transparent attempt to exploit local ethnic tensions for their own benefit. But mainstream Australians expressed their frustration with both the violence inflicted by Middle Eastern men, and the equally violent effort by white racists to exploit it.

While rejecting the tenets of neo-Nazism, working-class Aussies who live near Cronulla Beach were saying they’ve had enough of this culturally motivated crime wave in a wave of violence that is also unacceptable. The race riots in suburban Sydney represented a clash between two polar opposites of white supremacy and Islamic male supremacy. But the average Australian seeks a midpoint between these equally vile extremes in which fairness and a single standard of law will apply to all.

Comments
truth seeker you wrote: "just to clarify, my understanding is that Idolatry in hinduism is actually an expression of a pantheistic worldview… That is, everything is God and Idols help to ‘focus’ attension… or something like that…" It depends on who you ask. Hinduism is like Islam or Christianity or Judaism in that the word Hinduism denotes a category of religions and is not a religion itself. Just like in Islam or Christianity or Judaism we find different religions each claiming to be Islam, Christianity, and Judaism, and each with differing interpretations of scriptures, different doctrines and saints etc. So the same thing is found in Hinduism. There are many different schools of thought or sects under the title of Hinduism. The belief that you mention belongs to the religion or sect known as Advaita Vedanta. It's founder was Shankara or Sankara or Adi Sankara. He taught what is commonly called monism, which is sometimes mistaken for pantheism. I don't know of any Hindu sect which teaches pure pantheism. They are either almost all monists or panentheists. Essetially there are two types (and a minor third type) of Hinduism. Monism and panentheism. Monists make up barely 5% of the Hindu population but because they were the first teachers of Hinduism to come to the west and teach, their beliefs have influenced the west's perceptions of Hinduism to a great extent. Not to scholars of Hinduism, but to the common man. To the monist what you said is correct. They believe that worship of an idol as a representative of God is for beginners on the spiritual path. They teach that it is difficult for the average person to understand that God is formless, that God is everywhere and everything, including within ourselves, and that to meditate on God in that understanding is difficult. Therefore deity worship in the form of a statue or picture or even in the mind, of a form of God, seeing God as a person, focuses that person's understanding and ability on an easier conception. It is believed by the monists that idols, pictures, etc, make it easier to meditate on God and easier to relate to God. But once you have progressed beyond that need then the idol worship is given up. Not only is idol worship given up but also the conception that God as an individual person different from me or you is also given up. They teach that when one reaches enlightenment that all illusions of duality within the world disappear. At that stage the soul discovers "Aham Brahmasmi", "I am Brahman". They teach that God is not really an individual soul which is different then you or I, that we are all one with God, that God or Brahman is a spiritually ineffable transcendant reality. All notions of duality in this world are a product of illusion. There is only one reality, and that is Brahman. When enlightened the soul no longer sees the duality apparent in this world, he merges into the totality of supreme spirit which is Brahman. All seeming duality of the world of shapes and forms is an illusion. Not in the sense that duality doesn't exist. They do not deny that a tree or a house is an illusion and that they don't exist. They teach that ultimtely all things in this world are temporary manifestations of a single substance called Brahman. That ultimately there is only one substance which takes on a variety of the forms and shapes of this world and that when enlightened the person will see that the world of duality is illusory because everything is comprised and manifested from and by the same thing. The illusion or Maya they speak of is the illusion in our perception. They give the example of a snake and a rope. From a distance a rope may look like a snake, but upon closer examination it is seen to be a rope. So they teach that the world appears to be one thing but in reality it is something else. People who mistake the world to be what it appears to be are said to be under the influence of Maya or illusion. The most popular school of thought in Hinduism is the panentheism of the Bhakti schools. That accounts for over 90% of all Hindus. They come in a variety of religious beliefs but have in common the teaching that God is a person who while one with everything and everyone, that God is also distinct and different from everything and everyone. This is distinct from the non-duality of the previously mentioned Advaita Vedanta monist school. This school of thought believes in duality and non-duality at the same time. To make it simple to understand we can say that they believe in panentheism. That is that God comprises and is therefore one with everything and everyone, but at the same time everyone and everything is not God. The comparison is given of a drop of water in the ocean. The drop of water is one with the ocean, but at the same time the ocean is distinct from the drop of water in that the ocean is huge and powerful and exists in far more places then any single drop. They teach that God and the individual soul are of the same one substance, Atma, or spirit/consciousness, but that the individual soul will never become fully one with God upon enlightenment. There will always remain a vast difference between God and the soul even though they are one. Just like the drop of water in the ocean is part of the ocean, still the drop will never be equal with the ocean. They are one and not-one at the same time. While the monists believe that all difference will be lost upon enlightenment and that the soul will experience absolute oneness with God, the other schools of Hinduism teach that the soul enters into a personal one on one relationship with God upon enlightenment, and at the time of death goes to live with God in the transcendental perfected world, or heavenly realm. They teach that the idol or deity worship of a statue or picture or form of God in the mind is also to aid in meditation. But they do not teach that as one advances in enlightenment that the conception of God as an individual person, or of a God who has a form, will be given up in order to see that God is ultimtaely formless and non different then our selves. They teach that God is both formless and all pervading, AND has an eternal human form (many forms actually) and that in the transcendental heavenly realms God lives with us and interacts with us in those human forms. The monists teach that God or Brahman descends to earth in incarnations or avatars in human forms, but that ultimately those incarnations only exist for the purpose of teaching, and that they do not exist beyond the earthly realms. The other schools of Hinduism teach that those incarnations are earthly manifestations of eternal forms of God ever existing in the transcendental heavenly realm, and that they come done to teach and also to display "lila" or divine pastimes. That "lila" is taught as being a glimpse of what life is like in the trascendental heavenly realm. Then you wrote: "But with regards to Allah, Allah will never command something incorrect or false for the purpose of teaching, because as I said before, falsehood then becomes an eternal attribute of the Allmighty. Allah is unchanging, he will not lie at one point and then not lie later. This Goes against the nature of Allah." You need to re-read what I wrote. mentok
Peace, just to clarify, my understanding is that Idolatry in hinduism is actually an expression of a pantheistic worldview... That is, everything is God and Idols help to 'focus' attension... or something like that... Correct me if I am wrong. peace... Truth_Seeker
Mentok, I am familiar with that thinking or argument. I know that it is used to justify idol worship at the start while a person is a 'beginner' in religion, in hinduism. I would first say that falsehood and error can never be used by God for the purpose of guidance. The end does not justify the means. But also with regards to the worship of idols to bring one closer to the one God, Allah has this to say in the Qur'an: - Is it not to Allah that sincere devotion is due? But those who take for protectors other than Allah (say): "We only serve them in order that they may bring us nearer to Allah." Truly Allah will judge between them in that wherein they differ. But Allah guides not such as are false and ungrateful. (Qur'an, 39:3) That is, serving some host of idols to bring one closer to Allah is forbidden. The truth that God is 1, that the universe contains manifest signs of God's creation and power etc... This is not something you need to learn in stages, it is simple and easy, even a child can appreciate that. Your analogy of the child is actually irrelivant here, because never crossing the road or crossing only with supervision or looking both ways before crossing are not statements of truth or falsehood, they are advice. Advice may or may not be useful. But with regards to Allah, Allah will never command something incorrect or false for the purpose of teaching, because as I said before, falsehood then becomes an eternal attribute of the Allmighty. Allah is unchanging, he will not lie at one point and then not lie later. This Goes against the nature of Allah. Therefore I would suggest you clarify what your analogy is supposed to mean wrt Allah/God and the approach to God. peace Truth_Seeker
truth seeker you wrote: "1) Destroy the function of revelation by saying that everything ever said was actually the word of God. It makes no sense. My understanding, the Qur’anic understanding, that Allah allows falsehood as part of the trial of this life is logical and removes nothing from Allah of his majesty and removes nothing from the trial." Consider this analogy. You tell your young children that they must never cross the road alone, as they get older the rules change, no longer are there as many restrictions. The same principle applies in one's spiritual awakening. For the neophyte he is advised to see God through the revelations of scriptures and of people who are experts in the scriptures and to avoid the things and expressions of the "worldly". As the neophyte deepens in his understanding he finds that the earlier admonition to see God in the scripture and to avoid the worldly, is there only to raise his consciousness, to enable him to see a deeper reality. Once attaining to the deeper vision he sees that there is nothing separate from God, that God is fully controlling everything and everyone, including his own mind, at all times. At that stage that which was once seen as separate from God, and seen as the workings of chaos or of people and actions averse to God, becomes seen in a different light. Once you can appreciate the true situation of this world, at that stage the puppetmaster can use the puppets to show you just what He is all about and what He can do. We are all puppets, once understanding this in truth, in a constant realized state, then God becomes visible to our vision, within and without. This is not meant for neophytes on the spiritual path, it is meant for those who see through the eyes of knowledge, whose vision has been opened by God. "Those who perceive Me in everything, and behold everything in Me, are not separated from Me, and I am not separated from them." Bhagavad Gita 6.30 mentok
mentok, once again, I disagree... you say: - "“with all due respect, your answer is yes, muhammad was the creator of Islam.” No, my answer was that God, Allah created Islam and that Muhammed was the vehicle for God." If this was actually true you would be a muslim, but i understand why you (presumably) are not,lets see how I deduce this based upon the last thig you say. But first, you say: - "“The statement that in reality God is the creator of all things (true) merely serves to muddy the waters.” I believe that the truth never “muddies the waters”." Well actually, truth can muddy the waters when it is not directly relevant to what was being said. That statement is true at all times, hence to just say it within a specific context that does not need it, is muddying the waters. next you say: - "“Falsehood that a man may pronounce, and the movement that may follow are also the creation of God. But that falsehood is not FROM God…” That’s a contradiction. If God controls everything that goes on then falsehoods are also under the direction of God. Does that mean that God endorses falsehoods?" No contradiction, Allah brings everything into existance, creates every moment that exists, we cannot will to do something or do something except by Allah's leave. Allah allows falsehood to exist, and for people to speak it because of the reality of our existance. We are beings who are being tested in this life, and part of the test is our choice to believe or not to believe, to speak truth or to speak falsehood. All these things Allah allows as he wills. But they are not from Allah. Because Allah is the truth and speaks only the truth. So to answer the supposed contradiction, Allah does not endorse falsehood, Allah allows it as part of the test of this life. Your understanding imples a god who from himself (and therefore as part of his eternal and unchanging nature) lies and cheats... And at the same time you: - 1) Destroy the function of revelation by saying that everything ever said was actually the word of God. It makes no sense. My understanding, the Qur'anic understanding, that Allah allows falsehood as part of the trial of this life is logical and removes nothing from Allah of his majesty and removes nothing from the trial. 2) You seem to promote some form of determinism by removing any actual choice from mankind. you say: - "God or Allah is the primary cause of everything, if something exists it’s because God caused it to exist, all other causes proceed from the first cause." I would go one step further and say there are no secondary causes at all. We are not the creators and causes of our thoughts and actions, whereas we are merely entrusted by Allah to choose, and Allah guides this as he judges. We are essentially able to think only because Allah created that ability and does so perpetually, and will to do things because Allah allows us to do so. Allah allows this as it is within his plan for his creation within this life. two verses of note: - “And Allah created you and whatever you do” (The Qur’an. ‘Chapter’ 37 Verse 96) and "This is nothing else than a reminder unto creation, For him among you who wills to go straight. and you do not will except as Allah wills,- the Cherisher of the Worlds." (Qur'an 81:27-29) you say: - "God is always speaking through everyone and everything, if we can understand that, then God can reveal that truth through everything and everyone, directly to us, understand?" This is only partially true. Many things are signs of Allah in that they point to him. But not all things that are said are FROM Allah. The universe is a physical revelation from Allah and scripture is the word based revelation from Allah. But the words of mankind... one ust be careful... Anyway, these are topics needing more time to deal in full depth with. Understand? Peace. Truth_Seeker
truth seeker you wrote: "with all due respect, your answer is yes, muhammad was the creator of Islam." No, my answer was that God, Allah created Islam and that Muhammed was the vehicle for God. Then you wrote: "The statement that in reality God is the creator of all things (true) merely serves to muddy the waters." I believe that the truth never "muddies the waters". Then you wrote: "Falsehood that a man may pronounce, and the movement that may follow are also the creation of God. But that falsehood is not FROM God…" That's a contradiction. If God controls everything that goes on then falsehoods are also under the direction of God. Does that mean that God endorses falsehoods? I would say no. But if God didn't want those falsehoods promulgated then why do they exist? Is God too weak to stop them? Whatever exists does so because God wants it that way, if God didn't want it that way, it wouldn't exist. God is in charge and whatever exists in whatever form and fashion it exists in is because God wants it to exist for some purpose. Then you wrote: "I state and mean that Allah is the primary cause of Islam in that it was intended as truth. The Qur’an is FROM Allah (God), I do not mean that it was just some other thing that God brought about but which was actually the thoughts of the man Muhammad." God or Allah is the primary cause of everything, if something exists it's because God caused it to exist, all other causes proceed from the first cause. The thoughts of Muhammed are also from God, as are the thoughts of everyone else. All thoughts are dependent on memory, which is controlled by God. These words are coming from God, whether or not God endorses them as aboslute truth or he has me say them for some other purpose, is up for you to decide, that's called free will. The same is true of what you say or anyone else says. God is always speaking through everyone and everything, if we can understand that, then God can reveal that truth through everything and everyone, directly to us, understand? mentok
peace, just for the purpose of clarification... I say: - "Islam and all the pure messages act as discontinuities in time followed by periods of corruption. And so in the tradition of what came before Islam came to cancel the corruption by once again bringing the truth that has always been." The qur'anic Message of Islam has survived, although distortion has been added to the practice of Islam it via the Hadith liturature and the ulema... But those distortions are such that they can be removed since they are not in the very message of the Qur'an. So I would rephrase that statement as: - "The Qur'an and all the pure messages act as discontinuities in time. For the messages before the Qur'an there is the discontinuity followed by periods of corruption. And so in the tradition of what came before, Islam came to cancel the corruption by once again bringing the truth that has always been." To correct a misconception I have presented, Islam was not the new message, that is, the submission of will to God. But the Qur'an was a new revelation with the purpose of establishing Islam once again. Peace. Truth_Seeker
Mentok, with all due respect, your answer is yes, muhammad was the creator of Islam. The statement that in reality God is the creator of all things (true) merely serves to muddy the waters. Falsehood that a man may pronounce, and the movement that may follow are also the creation of God. But that falsehood is not FROM God.... I state and mean that Allah is the primary cause of Islam in that it was intended as truth. The Qur'an is FROM Allah (God), I do not mean that it was just some other thing that God brought about but which was actually the thoughts of the man Muhammad. Islam says that it is merely the same message that was preached before and hence it continues in a unified tradition. But be clear that it is here referring to the original messages that were brought via the prophets, and not the curroption of beliefs and practices that were later followed in these religions. Just one example: - For the Arabs at the time of the prophet who worshipped at the Ka’bah, Salaat/prayer was corrupted and empty of meaning, as Allah tells us: - “Their prayer at the House (Ka’bah) is nothing but whistling and clapping. So taste the punishment because you disbelieved!” (Qur’an, 8:35) And there is more in this regard (that is the history of corruption by the followers). Islam and all the pure messages act as discontinuities in time followed by periods of corruption. And so in the tradition of what came before Islam came to cancel the corruption by once again bringing the truth that has always been. Allah says in the Qur'an: - We sent a Messenger among every people saying: 'Worship Allah and keep clear of all false gods.' Among them were some whom Allah guided but others received the misguidance they deserved. Travel about the earth and see the final fate of the deniers. (Qur'an, 16:36) And regarding practices that are shared. The point of what I was saying is not that there are no shared practices, but instead that the practices are not neccessarily DERIVED from each other. There is a big difference. The Qur'an was revealed as a furqaan (a criterion) between what is right and wrong and elsewhere it is also described as something whaich is muhayminun (an overseer/corrector) of what came before. So Islam came to confirm what was correct and correct what was wrong. you say: - "Therefore we find reference to Jewish religious concepts within Islam" This must be understood within the context of what the Qur'an was doing, some of the practices that were done are critisized, others are not. Islam did not come (as none of the messages came) as some massive and radical departure from all that came before, it came (again) to re-establish pure monotheism (the true and timeless message) and to clear away the falsehood that man had attactched to it. Regaridng judaism containing narratives and inclusions from other sources... this is nothing new, it is even identified in the Qur'an as one of the bad things done to the message that was repeatedly sent to the Jews. Example: - But those who did wrong substituted words other than those they had been given. So We sent down a plague from heaven on those who did wrong because they were deviators. (Qur'an, 2:59) Do you really hope they will follow you in faith when a group of them heard Allah's Word and then, after grasping it, knowingly distorted it? (Qur'an, 2:75) Woe to those who write the Book with their own hands and then say 'This is from Allah' to sell it for a paltry price. Woe to them for what their hands have written! Woe to them for what they earn! (Qur'an, 2:79) Those who conceal what Allah has sent down of the Book and sell it cheap, take nothing into their bellies but the Fire. On the Day of Rising Allah will not speak to them or purify them. They will have a painful punishment. (Qur'an, 2:174) But because of their breaking of their covenant, We have cursed them and made their hearts hard. They distort the true meaning of words and have forgotten a good portion of what they were reminded of. You will never cease to come upon some act of treachery on their part, except for a few of them. Yet pardon them, and overlook. Allah loves good-doers. (Qur'an, 5:13) But those of them who did wrong substituted words other than those they had been given. So We sent a plague on them from heaven for their wrongdoing. (Qur'an, 7:162) I hope you can understand my explanation in this regard. I look forward to your comments. Peace. Truth_Seeker
truth seeker you wrote: "1) I do not see muhammad as the creator of the religion of Islam, that I ascribe to Allah… God.2) To say that Islam ‘borrows’ from prior practices indicates a causal relationship and that it is a religion made up in which the founder picks and chooses what he likes." 1) I agree that God..Allah did work through Muhammad, I said that Muhammad created Islam in the sense of Muhammad being the efficient cause, but I would agree that God is the final cause of Islam because I would posit that God is the final cause of everything i.e everything is acting or moving based upon the will of God in all that occurs. 2) We see that in most religions we can find practices of previous religions within them. We may not see that in all religions, it is not an axiomatic truth, but we do see it often. In fact Islam claims to be a continuance of or in a series of truths handed down by prophets in the line of Hebrew prophets with Muhammad being the final or latest prophet. Therefore we find reference to Jewish religious concepts within Islam. The same exact thing is found in Christianity with respect to the claim of Jesus being the fulfillment of Hebrew prophecy. That is not said to belittle any of those beliefs, but it is simply factual. I don't believe Islam was derived from hinduism, I pointed out that some of the practices of the meccans were incorporated into Islam and that those practices seem to possibly be hindu in origin. We can find the same thing in Biblical theology e.g concepts about Angels and Planetary Hosts. Those concepts were imported into Judaism while in their captivity in Babylon. After the Israelites were captured and sent to Babylon that is when Cyrus conquered Babylon, the Hebrews were there and he set them free. The jews write about Cyrus as a messiah figure. The religion of Persia at that time and of Cyrus was Zoroastrianism. We can find many Zoroastrian concepts within Judaism. see http://www.meta-religion.com/World_Religions/Zoroastrim/zoroastrianism_and_judaism.htm mentok
Though I have no more intension to discuss with harban, regarding your yes no question, just look at my war in the Qur'an post and judge for yourself, the relevant verses are there. But if you need a monosyllabic answer, then if you are only asking "if its for no other reason other than changing ones mind on Islam, can this person be killed?" the answer is NO. to save you having to page up or whatever here is a relevant verse: - Let us look at Noble Verse 2:256 “Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.” The Holy Quran prohibits Muslims to force any person into Islam. Muslims must not let people resent Islam and Muslims. They must leave people decide for themselves because the “Truth stands out clear from error” (2:256). And so, harban, believe whatever you want, I dont really care. I thought you wanted a proper honest discussion and thats why i took part... But that wasnt the case. I hope that some day you will let go of your anger and venom and just try to be honest in understanding what it is you so passionately hate. At least then, your comments would contain some evidence of thought and consideration. And perhaps too, you will learn that insults are not the best way to present your case. Peace. Truth_Seeker
Peace, just to mentok, Just two quick comments I want to make... 1) I do not see muhammad as the creator of the religion of Islam, that I ascribe to Allah... God. 2) To say that Islam 'borrows' from prior practices indicates a causal relationship and that it is a religion made up in which the founder picks and chooses what he likes. On these two points I would be interested to see what your evidence/thoughts for them would be. As a general point: - If mr. x says something and later I say something and its possible that i have met mr. x, is that proof that I copied that statement from mr. x? No... Its possible... But one must analyse further. It is not enough to say that a preceded b hence a -> b. I think you should be careful to differenciate between something being temporally prior and causally prior. The first needs little proof, the latter needs much more proof. Also, for your interest... There was a christian missionary called Robert morey who tried to prove that Islam was derived from a the moon god religion(s) of the middle east. His thesis is dealt with and soundly refuted in this article... http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/Allah/moongod.html As another point of interest, christians also try to say that Islam just borrows from a collection of apocryphal writings and other sources and misunderstandings of christian text and theology. Their arguments are dealt with very well here (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/). In both these cases, the error was "before = cause" with some hand waving arguments... On the issue of the pre islamic arabs following something vedic in style... Its possible that they developed their idolatry and their customs themselves, idols etc... stuff like that may be fairly common i think... But to me, on a superficial level at least... The religious customs and beliefs of the pre islamic arabs seem similar to that of hindus (or more accurately vedantists)... Would I be correct in characterising your belief if I said that you believed that All religions (except maybe vedantism) are to some extent derived from one another along with cultural flavours? If not, could you briefly outline how you see it? (unless your previous post contains it already...) I may be worth seeing if there are vedic like beliefs in areas not theorized for Hindus to have been... Sorry for the short post, im tired and sick and over worked... (smallest violin in the world plays in the background...)... I am in the midst of post grad research and other stuff and im pooped, so i am not at all interacting as i would like to... Ill be starting on those 12 questions very soon Inshallah (God willing)... They are good... To finish for now, I would like to thank you for your well mannered and civilised interaction with me on this topic. Its a breath of fresh air... Peace. Truth_Seeker
Well Truthseeker, you and Marwan are from a nonsensical form of Islam.....it is pointless to try and debate you when you say you are somehow representative of Orthodox Islam and you are not....You both are considered rank heretics.... Give me at least Honest Muslims that believe in the Quran and Sunnah and I am happy to debate.....you are simply cafeteria muslims that pick and choose the nice aspects of Islam and throw out the brutal parts... However, the Quran itself is brutal alone...150 admonitions alone to kill and slaugher non muslims......wife beating advocated.....treating your wife as a 'tilth' or in otherwords as a sperm receptacle when ever the Muslim male feels the urge so to speak... Again, you 2 are about as representative of Islam as Scientology is representative of Christianity.... The same goes for Sufis or Ismailies.......they are completely heretical and have been horribly persecuted by Orthodox Islam for centuries for their views.. However, the funny thing is, the more heretical a Muslim is like our Quran only friends here or Sufis, the more decent a person they are... The more Orthodox the Muslim is, the more dangerous they become... If I had my druthers, all of Darul Islam would be made up of Sufis or Quran only..........of course they are not remotely True Muslims but at least we wouldn't be having 1400 years of bloodshed on our hands.. A question to either resident muslim here... Do you agree with executing ex muslims as per Islam's teachings or do you reject such evil instructions? Yes or No please... If No, then you have no problem with Ex Muslims living in Muslim societies openly practicing their new non muslim religions, right? AS you know now, not one Muslim society on earth and none ever in the past has tolerated ex muslims........even today in 'liberal' turkey or maylaysia, ex muslims are persecuted and thrown in jail... In more honest and orthodox Islamic countries, ex muslims are executed as per Islamic teaching.... I would like to know what are muslim friends here think about this issue.....it is dear to my heart as I have 5 acquaintences that are Ex Muslims here in Alberta.... Also, to a point one of our muslim friends made earlier about my Muslim girlfriend dating me many years ago....yes you are right...a Muslim Girl is not allowed to date a Kafir like me......However, Turks are pretty liberal in their interpretation of Islam....she was more Ataturk then devout Muslim too be sure though she was certainly a nominal believer that introduced me to the Quran Thanks ProudDarulHarbian
Truthseeker, “Pmob1, your comments also leave allot to be desired…” Okay. Sorry about that. But it’s frustrating you know? You say the Kaaba is not an idol yet millions of Muslims bow down to it everyday exactly as if they were worshipping. You say it’s not an idol, that it’s really nothing special, just a piece of cloth and yet I can’t go visit it and take pictures of this mere piece of cloth and respectfully check it out. C’mon. It just doesn’t add up. It’s like Elton John marrying some old bald guy. I don’t get it. Then you guys try to blame the Saudis, like it’s all their fault and the mean Saudis won’t let innocent people like me go take pictures of the Kaaba. It’s the mean old Saudis that are distorting things. Okay, so you’re telling me a billion Muslims are deluded enough to lap up a bunch of Saudi B.S.? A billion Muslims are buying into a bunch of Saudi distorted nonsense every day of the week like clockwork? Hey, that isn’t a religion. It’s Jerry Springer. pmob1
truth seeker you wrote: "mentok, can i take it you are a hindu or a vedantist?" To one degree or another. "Are you seriously trying to imply that Islam is a hindu religion and that the ka’bah was a hindu monument? If so, in trade (:-) for my answers to those question) could you please summarise the case in those links for me, or at least give me the gist of them." To the first question, No. To the second question, there seems to be a lot of confusion about what religion was practiced in the Kaaba by mainstream western historians. What religions do we know were being practiced in the middle east right before Islam? Christianity, Judaism, Gnosticism (mandeism), Manichaeism, Sabaeanism, Nabataeanism, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, Buddhism, and probably many other lesser known religions and surviving remnants of much older religions. If we go much furthur back in time there is a lot of evidence that all of these religions (including european religions e.g Celtic, Roman, Germanic, Greek) were influenced by the Vedic religion. Judaism was heavily influenced by Zoroastrianism which was a direct offshoot of the Vedic religion. Also the Celtic religion and Vedic religion are very similar as has been noted by scholars of the Celtic religion, as well as the "Pagan" religions of Greece and Rome and of the Germanic tribes were all also related to the Vedic religion, as was their language related to the language of the Vedic religion; sanskrit. The study of sanskrit in the 18th century led to the development of the Indo-European thesis also called the aryan invasion theory which is the current mainstream academic position in most of the world's universities. Although there are many people who reject that theory, a lot of them Indian historians who claim a cultural bias in the interpretation of historical data on the part of the west. That theory was developed by British academics who upon studying sanskrit in the latter part of the 18th century were surprised to find that it is closely related to almost all of the european languages, and the older the language, the closer they are related. A theory was put forth as to how that had come to be. The theory was that a long time ago there were migrations westward out of India and that those migrants eventually ended up in Europe and that their language, religion, and culture melded with the pre-civilized Europeans. By the time of the Greeks there was no memory of their Indian ancestors. But the influence was there to be seen in the languages, religions, and cultures of Europe of that time, all of them had similarities to what the British were discovering in India. But that theory did not last long. Why? Probably because it went against the British political and colonial ambitions in India. A new theory was created and it is the theory with slight modification which has continued on down to us today. That theory was called The Aryan Invasion Theory, after WW2 the word aryan became politically incorrect so they changed the name of the theory to the Proto Indo European theory, or PIE for short. That theory teaches that long ago before civilization in europe there was a people who lived somewhere near the steppes of Eurasia or maybe closer to europe. No one knows because there is no physical evidence that they came from where the theory claims they came from, it's a theory based on linguistics alone. So the theory goes that these people had an oral tradition which was later written down i.e The Vedas. These people had developed horse drawn chariots when everyone else was living without. They were warlike and decided to leave their homeland. They moved into Europe, Asia Minor, Persia, and India, conquering wherever they moved into because of their superior war abilities of the horse drawn chariots. That was theorized to have happened somwhere around 1700 b.c. or maybe earlier. More recently that theory has come under fire and has (IMO) been succesfully refuted, although the mainstream academic community in the west doesn't like to budge on the issue, even in the face of overwhelming evidence. But they have been forced to change the theory to a small degree because of the evidence from the Harappan civilization, they were there long before the so called aryan invasion, and their cities show no sign of an invasion or battles. They now claim that the "Aryans" did not conquer India but came in migrations and eventually became the dominant culture. So it is believed that the Vedic religion has had a major impact on the cultures and religions of the very ancient world. The newer Non Aryan invasion theorists have a different theory which is based on more then linguistics. They believe they have proven that the aryans were from India. One of their many points is that the Vedas make no mention of any place outside of greater India (including afghanistan). So if the historical tradition of the aryans makes no mention of any invasion, nor mention of migration, nor mention even of places outside of India, then it makes more sense that it is because India is their homeland, espeically since that is what the aryans themselves claim. That theory posits that long long ago migrations regularly started out of India westward because the climate changed. Western India some 7000 years ago was a very lush place, today it is mostly desertified. That process started around 7000 years ago. In the Vedas the aryans speak a lot about their homeland centered around the great mother river Saraswati. From the mountains to the sea their homeland was like an eden. For a long time no one knew where that river was. But it was mentioned in other ancient texts that the river had greatly dried up by 5000 years ago. A few years ago using satellite technology the dry river bed of the Sarasvati river was discovered east of the Indus river, in the Indian desert. It's a humongous river basin flowing from the mountains to the sea, just as the aryans themselves claimed. Some 90% of the towns discovered of the "Harappan" civilization were in that desert, and it turned out that they were all centered along the dry river bed of the Saraswati(the river bed is under the sand and invisible to the human eye). see: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/2073159.stm http://www.archaeologyonline.net/artifacts/scientific-verif-vedas.html So the new theory of how how the ancient cultures in Europe, Asia Minor, Persia, and India came to be related is that as Western India was drying up over a few thousand years, there was a continuous migration of people, many going westward. This can be easily as possible seen in such cultures as the Roma or Gypsies (originally from India). Although they more likely entered Europe after the advent of Islam. They were probably living in the middle east and left when Islam took over. In fact the name Gypsy is derived from Egypt because that is where many of them entered into Europe from, and where they were thought to have originated from by the Europeans. No one knew where they were from, even the Roma themselves. But by looking at them it is obvious that they are Indian. A few years back some researchers took on the job of finding out the roots of the Roma seriously and they discovered that they spoke an Indian dialect, and that their music is Indian in origin, and that their religion has some Hindu aspects. Now it is accepted by the Roma and by mainstream academics that they originally came from India. Also, this may surprise you, the Druze also were originally a Vedic relgion. The Druze are mysterious people who have for along time refused to let outsiders know what they believe, until recently see http://tinyurl.com/9xg4w They were most likely a community of a sect of Vedic people who stayed in the middle east after the advent of Islam, whereas the Roma left, as well as the rest of the Vedic worshippers. There has always been since the most ancient times a strong link between India and Iraq and Arabia because that is a major trade route, it's a short easy boat ride between Arabia and India and that route is still sailed today. Due to that merchant business many Indians moved westward and arabs moved into India. Thats why in the west of India many of the people look more like arabs then Indians. So the point I'm getting at is that for a very long time there had been a big influence upon the middle east from India, especially the ancient "pagan" religions (another topic), as well as Judaism through Zoroastrianism. Was the "pagan" religion of the Meccans Vedic in origin? The arguments put forth on those links I provided do a good job of showing a good argument for that. Although the authors speak derogatorily of Islam, they do make some good arguments about the religion of the meccans. The prophet Muhammed clearly created a new religion, but some of the old religious practices were incorporated into Islam in various ways, or so it appears. mentok
mentok, women in preislamic arabia http://www.mwlusa.org/publications/essays/herstory.html peace. Truth_Seeker
mentok, just to clarify, i have not read the links... just skimmed on or two... Just in case you think i am trying to misrepresent their content. Anyway, ill be working on those questions for you. peace. Truth_Seeker
To harban, I have already outlined my side and challanged you to present any evidence for your claims. you have failed and rely now as before upon frankly ignorant and disrespectful comments. My discussion with you is over. I have also given details of websites that respond to both the websites you quote. You describe them as inept, well, to be honest, your opion holds no weight at all as it is clear you are a biased, narrow minded individual whose only skill is in portraying an example of ignorance and disrespect. Pmob1, your comments also leave allot to be desired... mentok, can i take it you are a hindu or a vedantist? Are you seriously trying to imply that Islam is a hindu religion and that the ka'bah was a hindu monument? If so, in trade (:-) for my answers to those question) could you please summarise the case in those links for me, or at least give me the gist of them. This thesis is entirely revisionist from an obviuosly biased perspective. If you summaries the points, ill respond accordingly. peace Truth_Seeker
Truthseeker, So I gather I can’t get anywhere near the Great Kaaba Idol that puts a billion Muslim butts in the air 3 times a day (as you prescribe), the Great Idol that drives all Muslims insane. Gee, I never would have guessed it. Honestly, I never would have guessed it in a zotz’s age. You know what? You have helped me understand why shrieking lunatics break up ancient statues in Afghanistan. It’s because their shtick is so lame that anything, no matter how pitiful, is a threat to their faith in The Idol Behind The Curtain. I pity them. I pray for them. I pray that they give up their shroud that hangs before a rock that never was. pmob1
Yes I have read the turgid Quran and what a painful experience that was....oy....... Seriously, if either of these 2 'muslims' were to try and practice their 'islam' in any Islamic state, they would be flogged in the market square for their heretical views!! Of course, Orthodox Islam, Sunni or Shia, would also flog Sufis, Ismailies, Ahymidias, Alawites et al... Again, I would refer our readers to Ex Muslims either in person where you live or online with the myriad of websites run by these Brave people.... One of the best is run by Ali Sina.....this site comes from mainly a secular pov and their goal is too help muslims to come out of Islam... www.faithfreedom.org If you have any questions about the Quran or Hadiths or Sira or Shariah et al, these are the people to ask........they were raised in it and they know all the tricks and techniques that Muslims use in defending Darul Islam.... Good stuff too be sure.... If you want too talk to Ex Muslims that are now Christians, their is of course www.answering-islam.org..........which has so infuriated the Islamic Cyberspace world that they set up the hilariously inept answering-christianity......you know what they say about imitation being the sincerest form of flattery. Our 2 friends here are from a small (very very small)group of Quran only muslims who are rightly embarrassed of the Sahih Hadiths and Sira.... But again, without these sources, the Quran absolutely falls apart...it simply makes no sense.........Again, I encourage everyone to read the Quran to find out for themselves!! ProudDarulHarbian
One more thing about the Kaaba: http://www.hinduism.co.za/kaabaa.htm mentok
If women were worthless in arabia before Islam why then was Khadija the wealthiest or one of the wealthiest merchants in mecca? Also there were many Jews and a large segment of a variety of Christians living all over the middle east, were they also in your opinion mistreating women? The pre Islamic arabs had many Goddess figures in their religion, wouldn't that say a lot about how they viewed women. How do you know how women were treated before Islam? I am interested in gaining a deeper theological understanding beyond the historical vantage point, history is written by the victors and therefore unreliable if our source for history is the victors side of the tale. To me history is much less important when it comes to an ancient religion because of the fudge factor, nothing is reliable unless corroborated by both the victors and the vanquished. , i await for your answers, thank you. Peace. mentok
I meant ill post the questions on my blog and answer them their too... Truth_Seeker
Hey pmob1, The kaaba is referred to as the ancient house, figuratively the house of God. It is a symbol and a directional guide for prayer. It is not worshipped, although some sunnis go a bit crazy over the black corner stone in the building. But in an essential sense it is not being worshipped when they bow down to pray. A hindu temple? I think more likly the similarity was in the concept of idols and polytheism as opposed to it being a hindu temple. Qur'anically, it was never originally a hindu temple. Regarding directions, i think ratzinger the new pope states that you must be directed to jerusalem, I also gave that quote from the ot in a previous post. You would not be allowed to go to the ka'bah now in Saudi arabia without proclaiming the unity of God. This is the position the government has taken. I'll check up the Qur'anic position on this when I get the chance... An idol is an object that is taken for worship in partnership with the All mighty, the ka'bah has never served this purpose for muslims. The ka'bah has been rebuilt in the past... If it was blown up, yes there would be lots of irritation, what would happen, i dunno. Regarding the timeline, I will look at historical data before i jump to your conclusions that it was neccessarily bad. But please realise, there was much hostility to the muslims from all round. They came with a message that sounded the death knell of polytheism and injustice. It threatened the tribal gods and divisive customs, the slave trade, prostitution, alcohol, unjust killing, fornication, the utter disrespect that women suffered (they were worthless before Islam)... Everything that idolatrous, tribal, unjust and ignorant world held dear was threatened. One must analyse context... To mentok... Thank you for your questions, they are very important, if you want them answered properly, you will have to wait for them one (or two) at a time... I'll post them here and on my blog... I hope you will find them useful. I'll also post them on my blog and proceed to answer them when I can. Peace Truth_Seeker
Marwan, Regarding the timeline, 632-700: Okay, so Islam and The Conquering Horde were unrelated. Big coincidence. I think I get the picture. My ancestors roared out of Scandinavia not long after and beat the crap out of lot of people. I guess from now on I’ll just say they took care of some very evil reactionaries who didn’t want to submit to the truth. pmob1
mentok, you write: The Islamic story is that the Kaaba is revered because it was built by Adam and rebuilt by Abrahama and Noah. Okay, so it IS an idol. I mean walks like an idol, talks like an idol, etc. I don’t know any Jews who face Hebron or Mt Sinai to pray. They might go to the Wailing Wall the way an Oglala goes up to Harney Peak I guess. I don’t know any Lutherans who kneel down to Wittenburg. I have some Catholic friends who have kissed the Pope’s ring but I don’t think they face the ring when they pray. In fact, I don’t think they worshipped the ring when they had their audience. I get the distinct impression that this Kaaba thing is different. I mean if the Old Temple Wall was blown up, I think the Jews would be in a terrific fit. But they’d get over it pretty quick. They’ve seen walls tumble. They’ve seen salt poured on the broken blocks. It’s part of the Predicament. Faith survives. But if the Kaaba got blown to smithereens, I have the distinct impression that a lot of Muslims would lose their marbles completely. Am I wrong? pmob1
Truth Seeker or Marwan, Kaaba: Well, when you see people bowing down toward something all the time, you naturally think maybe they’re worshipping it. But maybe I’ve got it wrong. And there is no actual rock? Okay, so if it’s just a building and a piece of cloth, then that can’t be a worship item I wouldn’t think. So here’s the question: if there’s no idol thing going on, could I go to Mecca and check this thing out? You know, walk up to it, take pictures, touch it, that sort of thing. I went to St Peter’s and the Sistine Chapel. I went inside, touched it, stared at it, all that sort of thing. I understand I could go to the Wailing Wall and walk right up to that. I know people who have. So I could walk up to the cube-shaped building and the piece of cloth, right? pmob1
Truth seeker I like the way you present Islam. Although I am ignorant of may of it's teachings. Could you find time to answer a few questions? 1. What is the nature of God or Allah? e.g is Allah a person who you can speak directly with and directly interact with, like between you and me here? 2. What is the nature of the eternal relationship between Allah and the individual soul? e.g is it a relationship of obedience to an impersonal authority, master to servant, friend to friend, parent to child, lover to lover? 3. Why is there a disparity in the way that peoples lives unfold here on earth e.g some rich some poor, some healthy some unhealthy, some safe and content some unsafe and miserable etc. 4. Is their eternal damnation for some or is everyone destined for a spiritual apotheosis? 5. I hear that upon going to heaven that you will have a bunch of virgin girls as your playthings, is that true? If so where did those virgins come from? Are all people who go to heaven going to receive virgin girls including women who go to heaven? 6. I hear that Islam is based on the Torah. Does Islam teach that God created the universe, earth, and humanity recently, with the creation of Adam as the first human in existence less then 10,000 years ago? 7. If the above is true how do you view intelligent design theorists who reject young earth creationism? Is Islam only compatible with young earth creationism? 8. Is there a description of heaven e.g what is life like there? 9. Is Islam panentheistic? i.e Allah is everywhere, everything is born from and comprised of Allah and controlled by Allah, and Allah is also existing transcendental to or beyond the confines and physical laws of the created world. 10. What part does satan play if any at all? 11. I have read that Sufism teaches about encountering and communicating with Allah within our own self and mind, this is a very Hindu type of teaching, is this a common Islamic teaching? 12. What enables a person to go to heaven and what keeps them from going to heaven? Thanks mentok
Peace, My Islam is not truncated, it is complete. It is the sunni/shia form that containes superfluous material. Now to the various comments you made... Lets get to the meat of it... Present your evidence and lets make this more than an assertion-fest... Without evidence, your words are nothing but hot air... I hope that in your attempt to back up your claims that you for once actually read the Qur'an. :-) Peace. Truth_Seeker
So we have a couple of Muslims here who to their credit openly admit that they practice a truncated form of Islam...Quran only Islam.....an Islam that is recognized by less then 5 % of Islam .... The problem with this is that without the Sunnah , the Quran makes no sense whatsoever!??? Their are 2 dangers with the short Quran....one is the amount of overt violence in its writings against non muslims .........secondly and that is the tremendou ambigiuty and vagueness in the Quran which leaves it open to wide ranging interpretations....... Without the additional writings, one cannot make hide nor hair of the Quran which is a mess....it may sound very nice phonetically when spoken in proper Arabic, but it makes very very little sense! And still , Muhammed and Islam come off very very poorly inside the Quran on its own when one can understand it........ Though granted it is less violent without the Sunnah but less comphrenisible!! Damned if you do......damned if you don't ...... ProudDarulHarbian
sorry for the unintended double post... The first one is the one that was meant. peace. Truth_Seeker
Peace, Ok, first to pmob1’s first post after mine… You say: - “Here’s some verses and a timeline of the first 67 years of “peace.” with Allah.” Yes Islam is a religion of peace, JUST peace. There is no peace when there is oppression or suppression of the truth and peoples’ desire for it. Islam is a practical religion, and there are times when war is needed to solve what cannot be solved otherwise. Regarding the timeline… I will not comment on the details at this point… But it should be noted that producing a timeline, does not explain the reasons for the battles. This would be interesting to check out. May do that in detail some day… There are always two sides… I have the biography of the Prophet Muhammad (it’s a biography that critically uses sources (critical of Hadith etc…)) by Muhammad Husein Haykal it deals with at the least the first number of battles… Must reread Inshallah (God willing) at some point. As a logical point. What they did, is now actually irrelevant to the discussion, because even IF they had unjust wars (our definitions may vary), unless you can prove that the Qur’an was the source of this, then you have proved nothing except that Muslims had some unjust wars in the past. To pmob1’s next comment: - You say: - “Mohammed reminds us of the old Prophets in some ways. Jesus is definitely something very different. ” What this tells us is that there is one person (according to the claims of his followers) is diverging from the prophets and their message before and after. Recall that Jesus is reported to have said: - "Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)" Which would seem to be a contradiction… Seeing as the prophets in the old testament did not preach the Christ (Hebrew Messiah, Arabic Massieh) crucified (to redeem all sins including the so called original sin) or the trinity… Anyway, my argument against the trinity is not historical in nature, but logical in nature… I’ll post my argument in my blog at some stage (I’m extremely busy this year…)… Next to ProudDarulHarbian: - You say: - “I get all my information from Islam from Islam’s brutal sources…ie Quran, Sira, Hadiths and so forth…” The Sira and Hadith cannot be taken at face value to any extent without critical historical analysis as they have the common weaknesses. Some sira are earlier that others… The books of Hadith are very poor Historical resources unless very critically analysed due to the huge amount of fabrication that has been included in their number. The source that acts as the criterion is none other than the Qur’an. Therefore, if you consider it a brutal source, I would ask you to justify this claim. Post here or on my blog as you please. You say: - “And folks take this into consideration when reading Marwan’s posts……he is a Quran only Muslim and thus a heretic from a Orthodox Muslim POV….these are muslims that constitute a very very tiny percentage of overall islam….” Correct. Yet since when has a majority opinion implied truth? The Qur’an says: - And if you obey most of those in the earth, they will lead you astray from Allah's way; they follow but conjecture and they only falsify. (Qur’an 6:116) You say: - “He is Quran only in the hope of avoiding the brutal teachings in the Sira and Hadiths and other writings of Muhammed……” Incorrect. I have taken this position because of (primarily) the fact that the Qur’an states that it is the totality of our guidance and that there is no other source, not the prophet, not anyone. I can amply substantiate this position. I will blog it at some point Allah willing. Secondarily, I adopt this position due to the poor historical preservation of the Hadith. Please read http://www.mostmerciful.com/hadithbook-sectionone.htm for some information in this regard. Avoiding unpleasantness in the hadith was the least of my concerns, and I can honestly say that I learned of most if not all of the absurdities in the Hadith AFTER I decided to do without them. You say: - “but this only confuses the issue further because the Quran without the additional writings is completely absurd…” I disagree, please present your evidence. You say: - “The Quran is neither chronologically or thematically ordered……it is a editor’s nightmare that to this day, Muslim scholars cannot still figure out how it is completely ordered….” The Qur’an is not a book of chronology (like the OT) and it is not ordered by theme. There are reasons for this, 1) It is not a history book, it is a book of guidance, and hence having a chronology from creation (Genesis) to whenever is irrelevant. And 2) A thematically ordered book can become tedious in any section that deal continuously with one topic, the Qur’an is masterful in its intertwining of many topics about a central purpose. Far from a nightmare, the Qur’an is a masterpiece. Please refer to http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Miracle/ and http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Q_Studies/Mirliter.html and http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Q_Studies/Mirshape.html and generally http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Q_Studies/ You say: - “Also consider this…..the Quran is avery very short book covering Muhammed’s false teachings for roughly 23 years” Well I obviously disagree with both pillars of this statement, that it is false or that it was of Muhammad’s concoction. Please refer to http://www.harunyahya.com/c_miracles_quran.php and http://asadi.95mb.com/koranfiles/ and for an excellent debate between a missionary and a Muslim on the topic please visit: - http://www.aswatalislam.net/DisplayFilesP.aspx?TitleID=50027&TitleName=Zakir_Naik and download the audio files titled Qur'an And Bible In The Light Of Science Vs Campbell (1 of 4 to 4 of 4)… Which refute the position that Muhammad concocted the Qur’an. you say: - “Consider in the Quran, that is shorter then the Greek Bible, that you have over 150 admonitions to kill and slaughter…..in such a short book mind you” Context, context and context… I have presented my paper and it is logical, so lets stop with the unsupported statements please. Feel free to refute my paper, I always value thoughtful criticism. You say: - “also the teachings of beating your wife are contained within” I disagree with this point, the word used (Dzarb) can be translated in numerous ways and is used in numerous ways in the Qur’an, one of them is beat, but is does not fit into the Qur’anic context in the verse referred to (I’ll put up a paper on my blog soon for this Allah willing) and so another meaning is used by me. The reason the beat translation is held mostly is because it is corroborated by the books of Hadith and not because it is tune with the Qur’an. (A common problem unfortunately). You say:- “the idea that women are a tilth too you” What is wrong with that? A man sows his seed in his wife, an analogy is being used here, why not? Lets not forget: - 1 Corinthians 11:3 “Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.” 1 Peter 3:5 “For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands,” 1 Timothy 2:12 “I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.” This is the NT. You say: - “also slaying the unbeleivers ad infinitum” yawn… again with the unfounded accusations… you say:- “Now do you think that all those muslims and their 1400 years of brutality have somehow misinterpreted Islam and that our friend here Marwan is telling the Truth???” I can say that it is more complicated than that. 1) The context of hostility must be analysed. Not all hostility is unjustified. 2) You cannot judge a book or a religion by its followers (I hope this is not contentious) 3) Unfortunately, the corpus of Hadith has had a negative influence for quite some time, anywhere from 1200 years to 1300 years ago… which obviously affected the accuracy of the beliefs of most Muslims… 4) I AM telling the truth simply because my source is the most truthful, foundational and important Islamic text. By resorting to the most truthful text, I maximise the truthfulness of my statements. Had I on the other hand resorted to made up Hadith, then the accusation of falsehood on my behalf would hold some water. You say: - “Western Muslims are forever distorting and presenting Islam as nothing more then a bunch of misunderstood peaceful boy scouts” For once I agree with you J!!! I do believe that western Muslims have no spine and they do sanitise Islam to suite their secular overlords (Dramatic language I know…) You say: - “Make no mistake….Marwan is either ignorant of Orthodox Islam or is making up stories” Neither is true. I am familiar with orthodox Islam, I simply do not ascribe to it due to its false teachings based upon false sources. I make up no stories, please refrain from personal insults. .. It would help to make exchanges such as these more pleasant. You say: - “and too be fair, most Muslims themselves are not aware of how beastly Muhammed was and his Islam so ignorance could be the issue here….” How nice of you to try your hand at fairness, im sorry to report that you have failed at this attempt, but don’t let that discourage you in the future, fairness is good. I would restate it as follows. Most Muslims are ignorant of the falsehood that has been incorporated into Islam by the false sources that are the opinions of scholars (fatwas) and the Hadith literature. You say: - “Folks….all you have too do is read the Quran if you can get through this horrifically turgid, repititive and violent book…..its all there…….and then work your way through the Sunnah of Islam ……” Obviously I would disagree with your characterisation of the Qur’an… Yes, people should read the Qur’an and then compare with the sunnah to see the massive difference. You say: - “I mean no anger or personal attacks on our Muslim friends….I only attack Islam…..for it deserves our scorn…” Falsehood deserves scorn… Islam does not. Ignorance deserves correction and not scorn. And so I hope I am helping to correct you… To pmob1 again: - You say: - “Christianity: freedom choice redemption Islam: submission submission submission ” Here is my take on it… Christianity: Illogical doctrine requiring blind faith from the very start. Btw, it requires belief or damnation (that is, if one does not accept that Jesus supposedly died for the sins of mankind, he cannot be saved.) Islam: Logical doctrine allowing choice and encouraging submission to the Creator of all that is, AND NO ONE ELSE. Back to ProudDarulHarbian: - You say: - “I am only targetting Islam for when it is taken literally, we end up with Hamas, Bin Ladin, Hizballah, Wahhabism, GIA in Algeria and so forth…..” I am a literalist all the way. And it is logical, coherent and just. You say: - “I grew up with Muslims and even my first gal was a Sunni from Turkey who taught me about Islam and Ataturk” She was not very observant to have had a boyfriend. That is totally forbidden Qur’anically (for both men and women) You say: - “But I will target Orthodox Islam whether in its Sunni or Shia forms” If you wanna attack the Hadith portion of Islam, then great, it deserves it. Much absurdity is there to be attacked. Your attacks on the Qur’an are misguided though… And finally to pmob1 (phew!!!!): - You say: - “Thanks for the verses. I’ll check them out” Great, that can only be good. You say: - “So you would say Islam immediately scoured the world with armies because it was suddenly attacked by the whole world around 632?” Quite possibly, why not. A radical message of monotheism and justice was coming in conflict with idolatry and injustice and the societies which held these positions. You say: - “How could far-flung peoples attack it when they didn’t know it existed yet?” Because as the borders of Islamic lands expanded to encompass their enemies, new enemies who were further away before would suddenly be bordering…Makes sense? Probably. But hey, Ive got some history homework eh?! ;-)… You say: - “Also, I am getting drawn away from my original question about the essential idolatry of Islam, i.e. worship of the Kaaba, a big black rock. It is true that you folks worship a rock? I understand that everyone bows down 5 times a day and faces this rock…” The Ka’bah is not worshipped, it is merely taken as a unified direction for Muslims to direct themselves in prayer, a Qiblah. Much like Christians face Jerusalem (I think) and in the OT too: - "Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem (old qibla), he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did afortime." (Daniel 6:10) Also, its not a big black rock, it’s a cube building covered with a black cloth. Also, Qur’anically, Muslims should pray 3 times a day. Refer to my Salaat in the Qur’an document on my blog for full details. Well, that took some time… I am a busy guy folks… Anyway, I hope I have helped. Peace. Truth_Seeker
Peace, Ok, first to pmob1’s first post after mine… You say: - “Here’s some verses and a timeline of the first 67 years of “peace.” with Allah.” Yes Islam is a religion of peace, JUST peace. There is no peace when there is oppression or suppression of the truth and peoples’ desire for it. Islam is a practical religion, and there are times when war is needed to solve what cannot be solved otherwise. Regarding the timeline… I will not comment on the details at this point… But it should be noted that producing a timeline, does not explain the reasons for the battles. This would be interesting to check out. May do that in detail some day… There are always two sides… I have the biography of the Prophet Muhammad (it’s a biography that critically uses sources (critical of Hadith etc…)) by Muhammad Husein Haykal it deals with at the least the first number of battles… Must reread Inshallah (God willing) at some point. As a logical point. What they did, is now actually irrelevant to the discussion, because even IF they had unjust wars (our definitions may vary), unless you can prove that the Qur’an was the source of this, then you have proved nothing except that Muslims had some unjust wars in the past. To pmob1’s next comment: - You say: - “Mohammed reminds us of the old Prophets in some ways. Jesus is definitely something very different. ” What this tells us is that there is one person (according to the claims of his followers) is diverging from the prophets and their message before and after. Recall that Jesus is reported to have said: - "Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)" Which would seem to be a contradiction… Seeing as the prophets in the old testament did not preach the Christ (Hebrew Messiah, Arabic Massieh) crucified (to redeem all sins including the so called original sin) or the trinity… Anyway, my argument against the trinity is not historical in nature, but logical in nature… I’ll post my argument in my blog at some stage (I’m extremely busy this year…)… Next to ProudDarulHarbian: - You say: - “I get all my information from Islam from Islam’s brutal sources…ie Quran, Sira, Hadiths and so forth…” The Sira and Hadith cannot be taken at face value to any extent without critical historical analysis as they have the common weaknesses. Some sira are earlier that others… The books of Hadith are very poor Historical resources unless very critically analysed due to the huge amount of fabrication that has been included in their number. The source that acts as the criterion is none other than the Qur’an. Therefore, if you consider it a brutal source, I would ask you to justify this claim. Post here or on my blog as you please. You say: - “And folks take this into consideration when reading Marwan’s posts……he is a Quran only Muslim and thus a heretic from a Orthodox Muslim POV….these are muslims that constitute a very very tiny percentage of overall islam….” Correct. Yet since when has a majority opinion implied truth? The Qur’an says: - And if you obey most of those on earth, they will lead you astray from Allah's way; they follow but conjecture and they only falsify. (Qur’an 6:116) You say: - “He is Quran only in the hope of avoiding the brutal teachings in the Sira and Hadiths and other writings of Muhammed……” Incorrect. I have taken this position because of (primarily) the fact that the Qur’an states that it is the totality of our guidance and that there is no other source, not the prophet, not anyone. I can amply substantiate this position. I will blog it at some point Allah willing. Secondarily, I adopt this position due to the poor historical preservation of the Hadith. Please read http://www.mostmerciful.com/hadithbook-sectionone.htm for some information in this regard. Avoiding unpleasantness in the hadith was the least of my concerns, and I can honestly say that I learned of most if not all of the absurdities in the Hadith AFTER I decided to do without them. You say: - “but this only confuses the issue further because the Quran without the additional writings is completely absurd…” I disagree, please present your evidence. You say: - “The Quran is neither chronologically or thematically ordered……it is a editor’s nightmare that to this day, Muslim scholars cannot still figure out how it is completely ordered….” The Qur’an is not a book of chronology (like the OT) and it is not ordered by theme. There are reasons for this, 1) It is not a history book, it is a book of guidance, and hence having a chronology from creation (Genesis) to whenever is irrelevant. And 2) A thematically ordered book can become tedious in any section that deal continuously with one topic, the Qur’an is masterful in its intertwining of many topics about a central purpose. Far from a nightmare, the Qur’an is a masterpiece. Please refer to http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Miracle/ and http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Q_Studies/Mirliter.html and http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Q_Studies/Mirshape.html and generally http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Q_Studies/ You say: - “Also consider this…..the Quran is avery very short book covering Muhammed’s false teachings for roughly 23 years” Well I obviously disagree with both pillars of this statement, that it is false or that it was of Muhammad’s concoction. Please refer to http://www.harunyahya.com/c_miracles_quran.php and http://asadi.95mb.com/koranfiles/ etc...and for an excellent debate between a missionary and a Muslim on the topic please visit: - http://www.aswatalislam.net/DisplayFilesP.aspx?TitleID=50027&TitleName=Zakir_Naik and download the audio files titled Qur'an And Bible In The Light Of Science Vs Campbell (1 of 4 to 4 of 4)… Which refute the position that Muhammad concocted the Qur’an. you say: - “Consider in the Quran, that is shorter then the Greek Bible, that you have over 150 admonitions to kill and slaughter…..in such a short book mind you” Context, context and context… I have presented my paper and it is logical, so lets stop with the unsupported statements please. Feel free to refute my paper, I always value thoughtful criticism. You say: - “also the teachings of beating your wife are contained within” I disagree with this point, the word used (Dzarb) can be translated in numerous ways and is used in numerous ways in the Qur’an, one of them is beat, but is does not fit into the Qur’anic context in the verse referred to (I’ll put up a paper on my blog soon for this Allah willing) and so another meaning is used by me. The reason the beat translation is held mostly is because it is corroborated by the books of Hadith and not because it is tune with the Qur’an. (A common problem unfortunately). You say:- “the idea that women are a tilth too you” What is wrong with that? A man sows his seed in his wife, an analogy is being used here, why not? Lets not forget: - 1 Corinthians 11:3 “Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.” 1 Peter 3:5 “For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands,” 1 Timothy 2:12 “I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.” This is the NT. You say: - “also slaying the unbeleivers ad infinitum” yawn… again with the unfounded accusations… you say:- “Now do you think that all those muslims and their 1400 years of brutality have somehow misinterpreted Islam and that our friend here Marwan is telling the Truth???” I can say that it is more complicated than that. 1) The context of hostility must be analysed. Not all hostility is unjustified. 2) You cannot judge a book or a religion by its followers (I hope this is not contentious) 3) Unfortunately, the corpus of Hadith has had a negative influence for quite some time, anywhere from 1200 years to 1300 years ago… which obviously affected the accuracy of the beliefs of most Muslims… 4) I AM telling the truth simply because my source is the most truthful, foundational and important Islamic text. By resorting to the most truthful text, I maximise the truthfulness of my statements. Had I on the other hand resorted to made up Hadith, then the accusation of falsehood on my behalf would hold some water. You say: - “Western Muslims are forever distorting and presenting Islam as nothing more then a bunch of misunderstood peaceful boy scouts” For once I agree with you!!! I do believe that western Muslims have no spine and they do sanitise Islam to suite their secular overlords (Dramatic language I know…) You say: - “Make no mistake….Marwan is either ignorant of Orthodox Islam or is making up stories” Neither is true. I am familiar with orthodox Islam, I simply do not ascribe to it due to its false teachings based upon false sources. I make up no stories, please refrain from personal insults. .. It would help to make exchanges such as these more pleasant. You say: - “and too be fair, most Muslims themselves are not aware of how beastly Muhammed was and his Islam so ignorance could be the issue here….” How nice of you to try your hand at fairness, im sorry to report that you have failed at this attempt, but don’t let that discourage you in the future, fairness is good. I would restate it as follows. Most Muslims are ignorant of the falsehood that has been incorporated into Islam by the false sources that are the opinions of scholars (fatwas) and the Hadith literature. You say: - “Folks….all you have too do is read the Quran if you can get through this horrifically turgid, repititive and violent book…..its all there…….and then work your way through the Sunnah of Islam ……” Obviously I would disagree with your characterisation of the Qur’an… Yes, people should read the Qur’an and then compare with the sunnah to see the massive difference. You say: - “I mean no anger or personal attacks on our Muslim friends….I only attack Islam…..for it deserves our scorn…” Falsehood deserves scorn… Islam does not. Ignorance deserves correction and not scorn. And so I hope I am helping to correct you… To pmob1 again: - You say: - “Christianity: freedom choice redemption Islam: submission submission submission ” Here is my take on it… Christianity: Illogical doctrine requiring blind faith from the very start. Btw, it requires belief or damnation (that is, if one does not accept that Jesus supposedly died for the sins of mankind, he cannot be saved. (I hope this is accurate)) Islam: Logical doctrine allowing choice (refer to war in Islam document on this blog and my own) and encouraging submission to the Creator of all that is, AND NO ONE ELSE. Back to ProudDarulHarbian: - You say: - “I am only targetting Islam for when it is taken literally, we end up with Hamas, Bin Ladin, Hizballah, Wahhabism, GIA in Algeria and so forth…..” I am a literalist all the way. And it is logical, coherent and just. You say: - “I grew up with Muslims and even my first gal was a Sunni from Turkey who taught me about Islam and Ataturk” She was not very observant to have had a boyfriend. That is totally forbidden Qur’anically (for both men and women) You say: - “But I will target Orthodox Islam whether in its Sunni or Shia forms” If you wanna attack the Hadith portion of Islam, then great, it deserves it. Much absurdity is there to be attacked. Your attacks on the Qur’an are misguided though… And finally to pmob1 (phew!!!!): - You say: - “Thanks for the verses. I’ll check them out” Great, that can only be good. You say: - “So you would say Islam immediately scoured the world with armies because it was suddenly attacked by the whole world around 632?” Quite possibly, why not. A radical message of monotheism and justice was coming in conflict with idolatry and injustice and the societies which held these positions. You say: - “How could far-flung peoples attack it when they didn’t know it existed yet?” Because as the borders of Islamic lands expanded to encompass their enemies, new enemies who were further away before would suddenly be bordering…Makes sense? Probably. But hey, Ive got some history homework eh?! ;-)… You say: - “Also, I am getting drawn away from my original question about the essential idolatry of Islam, i.e. worship of the Kaaba, a big black rock. It is true that you folks worship a rock? I understand that everyone bows down 5 times a day and faces this rock…” The Ka’bah is not worshipped, it is merely taken as a unified direction for Muslims to direct themselves in prayer, a Qiblah. Much like Christians face Jerusalem (I think) and in the OT too: - "Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem (old qibla), he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did afortime." (Daniel 6:10) Also, its not a big black rock, it’s a cube building covered with a black cloth. Also, Qur’anically, Muslims should pray 3 times a day. Refer to my Salaat in the Qur’an document on my blog for full details. Well, that took some time… I am a busy guy folks… Anyway, I hope I have helped. Peace. Truth_Seeker
pmob, as already stated the Kaaba is not a rock, it is a temple building from pre-islamic arabia. There is a black stone attached to one of the walls which is revered and kinda worshipped, it is thought to be a shivalingam (hindu idol) by many people especially hindus as it looks like one and there were many Indians in mecca, shivalingams were often used as conerstones or buried in the foundation or walls of many ancient and modern hindu temples. In Mecca at the time of the prophet Muhammed the Kaaba was a temple for the religion of the meccans and contained 360 idols (repesenting the days of the year, for astrological purposes every idol represented an aspect of God for that particular day). http://kaaba.biography.ms/ The reason muslims worship at mecca is because Muhammed was a meccan and he was thrown out of mecca. When he came back he took over and replaced the central religious practices while keeping the central temple of the meccans. The Kaaba was the central temple and in hindu fashion (to this day) it was circumnambulated 7 times in a clockwise direction as a purificatory rite. So Muhammed smashed all the idols and took over the temple as a sign of his taking power to the meccan people who had rejected him earlier. He kept the Kaaba as the central point of their enforced religion and the circling of the Kaaba was kept as well, except done in a counter clockwise direction. The Islamic story is that the Kaaba is revered because it was built by Adam and rebuilt by Abrahama and Noah. mentok
Marwan, Thanks for the verses. I’ll check them out. So you would say Islam immediately scoured the world with armies because it was suddenly attacked by the whole world around 632? How could far-flung peoples attack it when they didn’t know it existed yet? Also, I am getting drawn away from my original question about the essential idolatry of Islam, i.e. worship of the Kaaba, a big black rock. It is true that you folks worship a rock? I understand that everyone bows down 5 times a day and faces this rock… pmob1
An Addendum... Marwan, you seem like a nice chap and I want too say that most Muslims I am sure are moderate decent people.........I am only targetting Islam for when it is taken literally, we end up with Hamas, Bin Ladin, Hizballah, Wahhabism, GIA in Algeria and so forth..... I grew up with Muslims and even my first gal was a Sunni from Turkey who taught me about Islam and Ataturk........and my best friends growing up were muslims from Trinidad and they and their whole family are wonderful people.......I want you too understand that I am making a dichotomy between Islam and its 1 billion followers........ I will not broadbrush all muslims as fanatics like Hamas or Bin Ladin....thankfully those are a minority....But I will target Orthodox Islam whether in its Sunni or Shia forms.....Thankfully most Muslims the world over do not take every teaching of Muhammed literally today!! ProudDarulHarbian
Marwan, You write: "...why is christianity superior to Islam..." Christianity: freedom choice redemption Islam: submission submission submission pmob1
Marwan, I get all my information from Islam from Islam's brutal sources...ie Quran, Sira, Hadiths and so forth... And folks take this into consideration when reading Marwan's posts......he is a Quran only Muslim and thus a heretic from a Orthodox Muslim POV....these are muslims that constitute a very very tiny percentage of overall islam.... He is Quran only in the hope of avoiding the brutal teachings in the Sira and Hadiths and other writings of Muhammed......but this only confuses the issue further because the Quran without the additional writings is completely absurd... The Quran is neither chronologically or thematically ordered......it is a editor's nightmare that to this day, Muslim scholars cannot still figure out how it is completely ordered.... Also consider this.....the Quran is avery very short book covering Muhammed's false teachings for roughly 23 years .......its context is limited to this short time and only to a small part of the levant... Consider in the Quran, that is shorter then the Greek Bible, that you have over 150 admonitions to kill and slaughter.....in such a short book mind you......also the teachings of beating your wife are contained within, the idea that women are a tilth too you.....also slaying the unbeleivers ad infinitum.... You see, it wouldn't be so bad in the Quran if Muhammed and his cohorts in crime simply limited all the gore and murder to that particular time.......but incredibly, over and over and over again the admonitions are not only historical, but they are prescriptive for all TIME.....in other words, Muslims can wreak havoc ad infinitum and they have done so for 1400 years.......REMEMBER this folks, that within 100 years of Muhammed's poisened induced death, that his maniacal followers had made it too the gates of Tours in France because of the deranged teachings in the Quran...THAT is historical fact..... Now do you think that all those muslims and their 1400 years of brutality have somehow misinterpreted Islam and that our friend here Marwan is telling the Truth??? Hardly....Western Muslims are forever distorting and presenting Islam as nothing more then a bunch of misunderstood peaceful boy scouts........this is how Islam gets idiotic westerners to convert.....by not telling the whole brutal truth that is the Quran ...... Make no mistake....Marwan is either ignorant of Orthodox Islam or is making up stories..........and too be fair, most Muslims themselves are not aware of how beastly Muhammed was and his Islam so ignorance could be the issue here.... Folks....all you have too do is read the Quran if you can get through this horrifically turgid, repititive and violent book.....its all there.......and then work your way through the Sunnah of Islam ...... Thankfully, we are seeing Millions of Muslim bravely leaving Islam throughout Persia and the former Soviet Union and even among the Great Kurdish and Berber peoples.......and not too mention African Muslims where Islam is wonderfully hemoraging.... I mean no anger or personal attacks on our Muslim friends....I only attack Islam.....for it deserves our scorn.... Thanks ProudDarulHarbian
Marwan, Your points on the Trinity are well taken. They have been argued by Christians for a long time. There is the old joke that ends with the Rabbi saying: “Why should I get it retail when I can get it wholesale?” Christianity is, indeed, a religion full of intercessors. The Reformation was an attempt to break with some of these, perhaps in the way Jesus broke from the Pharisees and moneychangers. You wrote: Edward Gibbon says: “The Roman Christians, ignorant of his (Christ’s) birth, fixed the solemn festival to the 25th of December, the Brumalia, or Winter Solstice, when the Pagans annually celebrated the birth of Sol” Yes. The 25th was formerly a Mithras celebration. Christians elsewhere celebrated the birth on other days or not at all. Easter, the death-resurrection day, was top dog for hundreds of years. Christmas, with its birth-incarnation theme, is now at least equal. Mohammed reminds us of the old Prophets in some ways. Jesus is definitely something very different. pmob1
Marwan, Here’s some verses and a timeline of the first 67 years of “peace.” with Allah. It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land. Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them." Take him and fetter him and expose him to hell fire. And then insert him in a chain whereof the length is seventy cubits. Lo! he used not to believe in God the tremendous, and urged not on the feeding of the wretched. Therefore hath he no lover hear this day nor any food save filth which none but sinners eat." The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. -- • 626: Expedition of Banu Mustaliq. • 627: Battle of the Trench. Killing and enslavement of Banu Quraiza Jews. • 628: Treaty of Hudaybiyya. Battle of Khyber. Muhammad sends letters to various heads of states. • 629: Muhammad pilgrimage to Mecca. Expedition to Mu'ta. • 630: Conquest of Mecca. Battle of Hunayn. Battle of Auras. Siege of al-Ta'if. • 631: Battle of Tabouk, Ghassanids • 632: Farewell pilgrimage at Mecca. • 632: Death of Muhammad. Abu Bakr assumes power as Caliph. Battles of Zu Qissa.Battles of Zu Abraq. Battle of Buzakha. Battle of Zafar. Battle of Naqra. Campaigns against Bani Tamim and Mosailima. • 633: Campaigns in Bahrain, Oman, Yemen, and Hadramaut. Raids in Iraq.Battle of Kazima, Battle of Mazar, Battle of Walaja, Battle of Ulleis, Battle of Hirah, Battle of Anbar, Battle of Ein, Battle of Daumatul Jandal, Battle of Firaz. • 634: Battle of Basra, Battle of Damascus, Battle of Ajnadin. Death of Abu Bakr. Umar ibn al-Khattab becomes the Caliph. Battle of Namaraq, Battle of Saqatia. • 635: Battle of Bridge, Battle of Buwaib, Conquest of Damascus, Battle of Fahl. • 636: Battle of Yarmuk, Battle of Qadsiyia, Conquest of Madain. • 637: Conquest of Syria, Conquest of Jerusalem, Battle of Jalula. • 638: Conquest of Jazirah. • 639: Conquest of Khuizistan. Advance into Egypt. • 640: Battle of Babylon in Egypt. • 641: Battle of Nihawand; Conquest of Alexandria in Egypt. • 642: Battle of Rayy in Persia; Conquest of Egypt. • 643: Conquest of Azarbaijan and Tabaristan (Russia). • 644: Conquest of Fars, Kerman, Sistan, Mekran and Kharan. Death of Umar. Uthman ibn Affan becomes the Caliph. • 646: Campaigns in Khurasan, Armeain and Asia Minor. • 647: Campaigns in North Africa. Conquest of the island of Cyprus. • 648: Campaigns against the Byzantines. • 651: Naval battle of the Masts against the Byzantines. • 652: Disaffection against the rule of Uthman. • 656: Uthman is killed. Ali ibn Abi Talib becomes the Caliph. Battle of the Camel. • 657: Ali shifts the capital from Medina to Kufa. Battle of Siffin. • 658: Battle of Nahrawan. • 659: Conquest of Egypt by Muawiyah I. • 660: Ali recaptures Hijaz and Yemen from Muawiyah. Muawiyah I declares himself as the Caliph at Damascus. • 661: Ali killed. Accession of Hasan bin Ali and his abdication. Muawiyah becomes the sole Caliph. • 662: Kharijites revolts. • 666: Raid of Sicily. • 670: Advance in North Africa. Uqba bin Nafe founds the town of Qairowan in Tunisia. Conquest of Kabul. • 672: Capture of the island of Rhodes. Campaigns in Khurasan. • 674: The Muslims cross the Oxus. Bukhara becomes a vassal state. • 677: Occupation of Samarkand and Tirmiz. Siege of Constantinople. • 680: Death of Muawiyah. Yazid I becomes Caliph. Battle of Karbala and Husayn bin Ali is killed. • 682: North Africa Uqba bin Nafe marches to the Atlantic, is ambushed and killed at Biskra. The Muslims evacuate Qairowan and withdraw to Burqa. • 683: Death of Yazid. Muawiya II becomes Caliph. • 684: Abd Allah ibn Zubayr declares himself as the Caliph at Mecca. Marwan I becomes the Caliph at Damascus. Battle of Marj Rahat. • 685: Death of Marwan I. Abd al-Malik becomes the Caliph at Damascus. Battle of Ain ul Wada. • 686: Al-Mukhtar declares himself as the Caliph at Kufa. • 687: Battle of Kufa between the forces of Mukhtar and Abd Allah ibn Zubayr. Mukhtar killed. • 691: Battle of Deir ul Jaliq. Kufa falls to Abdul Malik. • 692: The fall of Mecca. Death of ibn Zubayr. Abdul Malik becomes the sole Caliph. • 695: Kharijites revolts in Jazira and Ahwaz. Battle of the Karun. Campaigns against Kahina in North Africa. The Muslims once again withdraw to Barqa. The Muslims advance in Transoxiana and occupy Kish. • 700: Campaigns against the Berbers in North Africa. pmob1
It seems the two posting Bible believers have no qualms about making disrespectful and ignorant remarks... If you want to present both sides of the topic and not just the biased and illogical faithfreedom, please refer to www.answering-christianity.com/ac.htm and www.islamic-awareness.org and www.understanding-islam.com. I am truely amazed by how ignorant the comments have been, with decided attempts to offend... How would you like it if i got all my information on christianity from disgruntled, ignorant and foul mouthed christian apostates? Because that is your method. Just to leave you with a taste of your ignorance... Here is a paper I wrote on war on islam that soundly refutes your bloosthirsty accusations... Unlike the 'turn the other cheek' methodology which is totally impracticable in a world of evil, the Qur'an is a manual for living in the real world... WAR IN ISLAM. To find out the Islamic truth on this issue, one must analyze the Qur’an. Let us look at Noble Verses 15:2-3 "Again and again will those who disbelieve, wish that they had bowed (to God's will) in Islam. Leave them alone, to enjoy (the good things of this life) and to please themselves: let (false) hope amuse them: soon will knowledge (undeceive them)." Let us look at Noble Verses 10:99-100 "If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed, all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe! No soul can believe, except by the will of God, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand." Let us look at Noble Verse 18:29 "Say, 'The truth is from your Lord': Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it): for the wrong doers We have prepared a Fire whose (smoke and flames), like the walls and roof of a tent, will hem them in: if they implore relief they will be granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces, how dreadful the drink! How uncomfortable a couch to recline on!" Let us look at Noble Verse 27:92 "And to rehearse the Qur'an: and if any accept guidance, they do it for the good of their own souls, and if any stray, say: 'I am only a Warner.'" Let us look at Noble Verse 10:99 "If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe!" Allah Almighty doesn't like us to compel people into belief. "Say: 'Behold all that is in the heavens and on earth'; but neither Signs nor Warners profit those who believe not. Do they then expect (any thing) but (what happened in) the days of the men who passed away before them? Say: 'Wait ye then: for I, too, will wait with you.” (The Noble Quran, 10:101-102) Notice how Allah Almighty orders us to say "Wait" to those who reject Islam. This clearly says that we can't force anyone into Islam, or punish anyone for leaving Islam. Let us look at Noble Verse 10:108 "Say: 'O ye men! Now Truth hath reached you from your Lord! those who receive guidance, do so for the good of their own souls; those who stray, do so to their own loss: and I am not (set) over you to arrange your affairs.'" Whoever believes benefits his soul and whoever doesn't, harms it, and Prophet Muhammad is not in charge of people to arrange their affairs. Only Allah Almighty is. "Say: 'Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message). (Qur’an, 24:54)" Prophet Muhammad's duty was only to preach. "And those who take as protectors others besides Him - Allah doth watch over them; and thou art not the disposer of their affairs. (Qur’an, 42:6)" Again, Allah Almighty here told Prophet Muhammad that he has no authority over those who reject Islam. Let us look at Noble Verse 2:256 "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things." The Holy Quran prohibits Muslims to force any person into Islam. Muslims must not let people resent Islam and Muslims. They must leave people decide for themselves because the "Truth stands out clear from error" (2:256). Compulsion is incompatible with religion: Because (1) religion depends upon faith and will, and these would be meaningless by force; (2) Truth and Error have been so clearly shown up by the mercy of Allah Almighty that there should be no doubt in the minds of any persons of good will as to the fundamentals of faith; (3) Allah Almighty's protection is continuous, and His Plan is always to lead us from the depths of darkness into the clearest light. I give you these verses so that you may know that Islam is a religion of maximum justice, even to those who reject the Almighty creator. I invite you to accept the content of the above verses as reflecting the spirit of the Qur’an on this topic. If you feel that I have neglected a ‘telling’ verse, please bring it to my attention and I will send you a response (God/Allah willing). So when can a Muslim fight so that he can take someone’s life? I shall give a few verses that will clarify this issue and I will also deal with a regularly quoted (or misquoted) verses in the holy Qur’an. Please note that from the verses below we can see the guidelines for war, guidelines that must be followed by Muslims. Muslims are forbidden from attacking others who do not attack them (* this is qualified soon): "Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors. (Qur’an, 2:190)" Fighting in the cause of GOD Almighty those who fight us is a duty for Muslims. I can't go and kill a non-Muslim just because he is a non-Muslim. That is absolutely forbidden in Islam: "Those who invoke not, with God, any other god, nor slay such life as God has made sacred except for just cause, nor commit fornication; - and any that does this (not only) meets punishment. (But) the Penalty on the Day Of Judgement will be doubled To him, and he will dwell Therein in ignominy. (Qur’an, 25:68-69)" “The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;” (Qur’an, 5:33) War can only be declared when the Muslims are attacked (*this is qualified soon). Muslims are not allowed to attack those who do not attack them. And even when war breaks out, if the enemy offers an honest peace, then we should accept it and end the bloodshed: "But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in God: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things). (Qur’an, 8:61)" And if a treaty of peace was made, then we must honor that treaty to the end: "Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If God had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then God Hath opened no way for you (to war against them). (Qur’an, 4:90)" "How can there be a league, before God and His Apostle, with the idolators, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for God doth love the righteous. (Qur’an, 9:7)" It should be noted that for Muslims there is a law of retaliation. A life for a life is something that Muslims believe, "O ye who believe! the law of equality is prescribed to you in cases of murder: the free for the free, the slave for the slave, the woman for the woman. But if any remission is made by the brother of the slain, then grant any reasonable demand, and compensate him with handsome gratitude, this is a concession and a Mercy from your Lord. After this whoever exceeds the limits shall be in grave penalty.” (Qur’an, 2:178) (* = reference is here) A situation when war may be declared is as follows:- “How should ye not fight for the cause of Allah and of the feeble among men and of the women and the children who are crying: Our Lord! Bring us forth from out this town of which the people are oppressors! Give us from thy presence some protecting friend! Give us from Thy presence some defender!" (Qur’an, 4:75) “But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers.” (Qur’an, 2:192-193) We MUST fight tyranny and oppression when there are those seeking our help. If you call this terrorism, then you are either in the side pocket of an oppressor, or, you are yourself aligned with an oppressor. If you are not unjust to Muslims, you have nothing to fear. I shall now take one example, which I imagine has been misunderstood. Please keep in mind the above mentioned verses that are the regulating verses with regards to war. “Fight and slay the Polytheists wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war);” Wow, this really seems to shut me up! But there are two issues:- 1. This is totally out of context. 2. You must not forget the earlier regulating verses with regards to war. I shall go through the relevant verses which will help you to understand the context. Below are the relevant verses:- (9:1) Freedom from obligation (is proclaimed) from Allah and His messenger toward those of the idolaters with whom ye made a treaty. (9:2) Travel freely in the land four months, and know that ye cannot escape Allah and that Allah will confound the disbelievers (in His Guidance). (9:3) And a proclamation from Allah and His messenger to all men on the day of the Greater Pilgrimage that Allah is free from obligation to the idolaters, and (so is) His messenger. So, if ye repent, it will be better for you; but if ye are averse, then know that ye cannot escape Allah. Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those who disbelieve, (9:4) Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him). (9:5) Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters/polytheists wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (9:6) And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not. (9:7) How can there be a treaty with Allah and with His messenger for the idolaters save those with whom ye made a treaty at the Inviolable Place of Worship? So long as they are true to you, be true to them. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty. (9:8) How (can there be such a league), seeing that if they get an advantage over you, they respect not in you the ties either of kinship or of covenant? With (fair words from) their mouths they entice you, but their hearts are averse from you; and most of them are rebellious and wicked. (9:9) They have purchased with the revelations of Allah a little gain, so they debar (men) from His way. Evil is that which they are wont to do. (9:10) In a Believer they respect not the ties either of kinship or of covenant! It is they who have transgressed all bounds. (9:11) But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge. (9:12) But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and taunt you for your Faith,- fight ye the chiefs of Unfaith: for their oaths are nothing to them: that thus they may be restrained. (9:13) Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and did attack you first? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is Allah Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe! (9:14) Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace, and assist you against them and heal the hearts of a believing people. I would first recommend that you read the above verses once more. Now I will give you the verses and briefly explain them by each other, i.e., by understanding the context. So, you should read:- (9:1) Freedom from obligation (is proclaimed) from Allah and His messenger toward those of the idolaters with whom ye made a treaty. (9:2) Travel freely in the land four months, and know that ye cannot escape Allah and that Allah will confound the disbelievers (in His Guidance). (9:3) And a proclamation from Allah and His messenger to all men on the day of the Greater Pilgrimage that Allah is free from obligation to the idolaters, and (so is) His messenger. So, if ye repent, it will be better for you; but if ye are averse, then know that ye cannot escape Allah. Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those who disbelieve, And (9:5) Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. And realize that they are qualified by:- (9:4) Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him). In fact if we were to assume that Muslims were supposed to just randomly go around killing any idolaters they found, then the next verse would be confusing:- (9:6) And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not. It does not say force them into Islam, it does not say kill them… it says, ‘protect him so that he may hear God’s word’. A place of safety means a place of mutual safety, i.e., a place where the idolater can’t cause trouble (hence safety for the Muslims), and a place of safety for the idolater. In the next verses a) the mentality of those with whom Muslims cannot maintain a treaty is exposed. And b) The kind of actions which warrant both fighting and the breaking of a treaty (now from the Muslim side) are explained:- A) (9:7) How can there be a treaty with Allah and with His messenger for the idolaters save those with whom ye made a treaty at the Inviolable Place of Worship? So long as they are true to you, be true to them. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty. (9:8) How (can there be such a league), seeing that if they get an advantage over you, they respect not in you the ties either of kinship or of covenant? With (fair words from) their mouths they entice you, but their hearts are averse from you; and most of them are rebellious and wicked. (9:9) They have purchased with the revelations of Allah a little gain, so they debar (men) from His way. Evil is that which they are wont to do. (9:10) In a Believer they respect not the ties either of kinship or of covenant! It is they who have transgressed all bounds. Notice how clearly we are told “So long as they are true to you, be true to them”. Which logically implies that we can only attack (and hence break a treaty) once they are no longer true to the treaty. B) (9:12) But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and taunt you for your Faith,- fight ye the chiefs of Unfaith: for their oaths are nothing to them: that thus they may be restrained. (9:13) Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and did attack you first? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is Allah Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe! (9:14) Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace, and assist you against them and heal the hearts of a believing people. The above verses also qualify (9:1-3,5). If people just looked at the Qur’an logically, they would see its magnificence. It is obvious that the above verses are self explanatory, as Allah says:- (9:11) …We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge. But if you come in with bad intentions, you will be blinded by those intentions. Marwan_Boustany
I would like too say too the muslim apologists here that you are defending the indefensible.....better luck defending Marxism or Nazism then Islam!! However, if people want too get honest answers about Islam and not the usual pile of lies , please talk to the legions of ex muslims out there in cyberspace or perhaps even in person!! 2 of my dearest friends are apostates from Sunni Islam and I have learned much from them and others about Islam and its brutal founder muhammed!! One of the best sites too talk to ex muslims is www.faithfreedom.org run by the great persian canadian Dr. Ali Sina......there are gaggles of ex muslims on the forums where you can ask any question about the cult that is islam and you will get an honest answer too be sure!! In short, Muhammed was a brutal man from a brutal period and a brutal part of the world.....he never rose above the brutality that was part and parcel of the levant in the 7th cent....... He was a murderer of innocent Jews and poets, he was a looter, a advocate of beating wives, a advocate of raping captive women, and incredibly he married a 6 year old girl while he was in his 50's and slept with Aisha when she was 9??? You should see how muslims try to spin this act of degeneracy!! Also, and this is crucial, Islam advocates the murder of those that leave this brutal ideology.........all of these brutal teachings are contained either in the Quran (think Mein Kampf for Arabs) or the Sahih Hadiths or Sira..... As another poster pointed out, the harshness of the Bible is contained in its earlier covenants and give way too the Greek Bible and Christ's teachings... In Islam, it is the exact opposite.......Muhammed while at Mecca was quite decent and peaceful......when he fled to Medina and took power there, he became the murderous petty thug that we all know about.... Islam gets uglier as it proceeds........the exact opposite of the Bible!! Thanks ProudDarulHarbian
I apologise for the previous rash response... There is really no point in allowing discussion to degenerate. pmob1... You are free to believe what you like, but when you choose to make offensive statements, you must expect 2 things: - 1) To offend people. (By the way, how is this manner of yours a part of the christian "reformation"?) 2) You will be asked to provide evidence. So I ask you, why is christianity superior to Islam and in what way is this related to the reformation you speak of? Provide your evidence... In what way is islam a blood thirsty and unjust religion. Provide your evidence. Peace... Marwan_Boustany
If they are inspired by the Qur'an, I would challange you to provide your proof. Second, can i have thhe exact references to the history you speak of? Quote me the Qur'anic evidence... And regarding the reformation you speak of... I would say two things... 1) Christianity is different to anything brought by any of the old testament prophets, it is infact only similar to older polytheistic religions which had God families and trinities... Consider: - 1) The Egyptian triad of Ramses II, Amon-Ra, and Nut. 2) The Egyptian triad of Horus, Osiris, and Isis. 3) The Palmyra triad of moon god, Lord of the Heavens, and sun god. 4) The Babylonian triad of Ishtar, Sin, and Shamash. 5) The Mahayana Buddhist triune of transformation body, enjoyment body, and truth body. 6) The Hindu triad (Tri-murti) of Brahma, Vishnu, and Siva. Edward Gibbon says: “The Roman Christians, ignorant of his (Christ’s) birth, fixed the solemn festival to the 25th of December, the Brumalia, or Winter Solstice, when the Pagans annually celebrated the birth of Sol” Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, vol. ii, Gibbon, p. 383. Many such facts, with the Christianity you do not have a reformation, but a revolution to the old pagan ways. 2) You say Islam has a bloodlust, provide the Qur'anic evidence. Peace... etc... Marwan_Boustany
Marwan, I’ll choose my own bibles, thanks. The references to banditry, throat-slitting and vicious conquering hordes of library-burners are references to something called history. Check it out some time. The actions I noted were inspired by the Qur’an (and still are, of course). The biblical quotes you provide only underline my original point, that Islam is an Old Testament religion. You reaffirm my thesis. A Reformation requires a New Testament. Islam never got that far. Therefore, a Reformation will not suffice to cure Islam of its Old Testament blood lust. Peace and Love, pmob1
brief response. why isnt it being posted? first to the article... it really needs to be stated that there is a world of difference between arab traditionalism and islam. Much in that article can be easily resolved in this regard. Gender equality? The bible says that the man is the head of his wife, nowhere in the Qur'an is this said. Woman will be ruled over / dominated by the husband is found in (GENESIS 3:16) 1 Corinthians 11:3 "Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God." 1 Peter 3:5 "For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands," 1 Timothy 2:12 "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent." Rape is absolutely not allowed qur'anically, for any reason, in fact if a man were cast aspersions on a woman’s modesty without clear evidence he is to be flogged 80 times. Contrast this to From the NIV Bible recall (Matthew 5:17-18), Deuteronomy 22:28 which says: - "If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives." Just pay 50 shekels and its ok, then the woman is forced to marry her rapist. Just because that so called muslim who went to america said what he said, that means nothing, he is just an ignorant hypocrite. Who deserves brutal punishment for what he inflicted on those girls. polygamy (or polygyny)? the old testament is full of polygyny, Abraham, king david, solomon, King Solomon's son Rehoboam etc... if it was good for them... Anyway, qur'anic position on polygyny is restricted for a special purpose. he says "But along with Islamic immigration to the West have come Third World value systems regarding the treatment of women." Islamic immigration? what the hell does that mean? and I like the way he tries to link 3rd world value systems with it. What are first world value systems anyway? The right to deny God and denigrate God and indoctrinate children in atheism and moral relativity, the right to promiscuity and the treating of women as sex objects to be gawked at in every advert and pornographic movie? The right to destroy familys and all they stand for etc... gimme a break. The right (or "freedom") to homosexual marriage and the sexualisation of children? The right for women to act like men in order to have worth? just seriously gimme a break... The article is just so much ignorance... Ill write more if i have time and feel like it... now to pmob1: - first of all, check your niv bible and realise that the “Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.” section is recognised as not authentic... so forget that. next your statements are so full of ignorance that i am forced to say "should i expect more?"... I would advise you read the Qur'an before you cast such repulsive statements around like so much chaff... you say: "His message was: back to the caves, boys, and let’s shoot up that caravan and slit some throats. I don’t recall that Jesus made his big break by raiding camel caravans. Totally different deal." Really? was this his message? this is what he taught? The Qur'an is a manual of monotheism and submission of the will of humanity to the All mighty. It teaches charity, honesty, justice, kindness, doing good to parents and the poor and the needy and any who ask. and so much more... yet in it I have yet to come across the teaching of "back to the caves, boys, and let’s shoot up that caravan and slit some throats."... If you actually want biblical quotes for that kind of thing well here are some examples: -- Numbers 31:1-18, And the Lord said unto Moses, "Avenge the children of the Mid'-an'ites.. They warred against the Mid'-i-an'ites, as the Lord commanded Moses, and they slay all the males. And they took all women as captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods. And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire. Moses said, "HAVE YOU SAVED ALL THE WOMEN ALIVE? NOW KILL EVERY MALE AMONG THE LITTLE ONES, AND KILL EVERY WOMAN that has known a man by lying with him, but all the young girls who have not known a man by lying with him keep alive for yourselves." keep the girls as concubines... hmnnn… [Joshua 6:20-24]which contains the following: - "The people utterly DESTROYED ALL THAT WAS IN THE CITY, BOTH MAN AND WOMAN,YOUNG AND OLD, AND OX AND SHEEP, AND ASS, WITH THE EDGE OF THE SWORD" etc... There is really no point in comparing Jesus to Muhammad, Muhammad was a prophet more in the style of Moses... Plenty more to say, but you are just a drop in the ocean (as is the article's author) and i haven’t the time. Peace. Marwan_Boustany
pmob you wrote: "You wrote: “His message was: there is no god but God (so don’t worship idols made of stone and wood).”Come on. Your life’s mission is to go to Mecca and grovel in front of a big black rock." Are you talking about the Kaaba? The large black cube in Mecca? If so, a little info: It's not a rock, the black color is fabric, underneath is a building, an ancient hindu temple actually, the muslims call it a pagan temple but is was actually a hindu temple. There is a long story as to how it came to be treated the way it is. Here it is Vedic Past of Pre-Islamic Arabia - Part 1 Vedic Past of Pre-Islamic Arabia - Part 2 Vedic Past of Pre-Islamic Arabia - Part 3 Vedic Past of Pre-Islamic Arabia - Part 4 Vedic Past of Pre-Islamic Arabia - Part 5 Vedic Past of Pre-Islamic Arabia - Part 6 Vedic Past of Pre-Islamic Arabia - Part 7 Vedic Past of Pre-Islamic Arabia - Part 8 mentok
Ben, So are they Islamic Lebs or Catholic? Will they assimilate? Since you appear to have an (actual) unemployment rate of 12% or so, who’s bringing in all the casuals anyway? pmob1
Logan, You wrote: “Is this the same practice of stoning that is endorsed by the Divinely revealed Old Testament?” Right. Not to shock, but their have been further revelations. The rest of us stepped over the older stuff long ago. Islam is still rolling in it. You wrote: “His message was: there is no god but God (so don’t worship idols made of stone and wood).” Come on. Your life’s mission is to go to Mecca and grovel in front of a big black rock. You wrote: “The Koran’s counter-response was “Permission to fight is given to those who fight because they have been wronged…” Okay, so after raiding a bunch of caravans, raising armies, cutting the heads off all the male Jews, (you know, the usual stuff), the Muslims say to themselves, Hey, we’ve been “wronged” by the entire populations of N. Africa, Spain, France, Turkey, Mesopotamia, Persia, everyone. None of these people even knows yet that we exist but Allah says go cut their heads off. You wrote: “Indeed they are totally different deals. The Prophet of Islam(s) is much more comparable to Moses or King David: like them he was required to wage war.” Right. Exactly as I said. You need a New Testament before you can have a Reformation. The Muslims put an Old Testament together very late in the game, did a little idol-smashing and never got an inch further. By that time, David had been dead for 1500 years. pmob1
The problem gangs in Sydney aren't pakistani, they're lebanese. It's been remarkable to me as an Australian just how many elementary details of this story the American and British media have got wrong. Incidentally, the vast majority of the violence and property damage has been inflicted not in the original white riots but in revenge attacks by the Lebs. BenK
"Status of women in Pakistan From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Pakistan is the first Muslim country to elect a woman (Benazir Bhutto) as a Head of Government. Women are well represented in politics and in many upper-middle-class professions. Nevertheless, within Pakistan, there are wide diversities and divergences between provinces and territories, and between urban/metropolitan areas and remote rural localities. The complexity of these is daunting. While Pakistani women continue to struggle for advancement, they have made strides by a number of measures. Among these are the rising numbers of women in well-paid professional occupations, increased activism by feminist groups, and a recent rapid reduction in the number of children per woman. Women in Pakistan have progressed in various fields of life such as politics, education, economy, services, health and many more. The Pakistani women of today enjoy a better status than most Islamic and Middle Eastern women. Pakistan is the only country to have a Female Major-General in the army; Pakistan is the only Muslim country to have women fighter pilots in its Air Force/Military; Pakistan fares much better then all its neighbors, many Western European countries and the USA, when it comes to women's representation in the Parliament and local governments; a MINIMUM of 33% seats have to be occupied by women, by law. Pakistani women have always played a very important part in its society. Asma Jehangir, the human rights activist is a great Pakistani woman. Nowadays, you see Pakistani women excelling in all facets of life; they are in the police, in the Commando unit of the police and security forces, they lead corporations (e.g. Unilever Pakistan,) they are respected journalists etc. There are many good role models to young girls on various Pakistani Television channels who are females, such as singers and talented actresses in Pakistani TV dramas. Yet much more remains to be done in terms of equal rights and protection as well as amendments to biased and defunct Hudood Laws." That is one side of Pakistan, the middle and upper class side. But the fact is that most people in Paksitan are poor, and there are many many women who are the targets of all kinds of exploitation and violence. The influence of Wahhabism has exasperated the situation as well. mentok
There seems to be some mistaken ideas on these responses. In the blog post was about Pakistani immigrants in Australia who are criminals, the man's defense was no doubt a lawyers tactic to garner sympathy vis-a-vis political correctness and multiculturalism. Secondly Islam does not condone what goes on in various tribal/ethnic locales in Pakistan. Actually you can find the same types of barbarity in various tribal/ethnic cultures in India as well. In India a big problem is dowry violence and murder. It is almost a common occurence amongst backwards poor people to throw acid on the faces of their brides if the promised dowry is not delivered, or even killing the bride. In these backward poor ethnic/tribal communities women are a commodity and if they don't go along with the business deal then violence ensues against them. It's not an Islamic thing, it's a cultural thing found amongst certain poor ethnic/tribal communities in Pakistan and India. That does not mean that women in Islamic countries have as much equality as in the west, though it varies from country to country and community to community. Take Pakistan for example. On the one hand you can find the most brutal treatment of women in the Islamic world there in various poor ethnic/tribal communities. But also in Pakistan you will find a large sector of society who view Islam much the same as how most people in the west view religion, i.e they rarely go to church, and religion is not given too much thought or consequence in their daily lives. In Pakistan the upper and middle class are very westernized and are not religious fanatics at all, women are not treated as second class citizens, in fact they hold prominent positions of influence and power throughout Pakistani society, their prime minister was a women a few years ago. That is why Mushareff can get away with being a big supporter of George Bush. That couldn't happen in any other Islamic country. It is due to the middle and upper classes in Pakistan seeing themselves as modern progressive westernized people. They like American society and culture and send their children to America for their schooling. They are Indian people, not arabs, they are not fanatic jihadists, in fact they are hardly religious at all. But in the last few decades Saudi Arabia has poured millions of dollars into Pakistan to build madrassahs (religious schools) which teach Wahhabism. Paksitan's Islam had been a mix of influences due to the nature of the creation of the state of Pakistan. Pakistan was created by the partition of British India and the result of that partition was a large exodus of muslims from all over India into what used to be the western part of India. The hindus who lived there fled into India and the muslims who lived there were in large part poor tribal peoples. Due to partition a flood of Indian muslims who were well educated and economically successful moved into Paksitan and became it's elites and middle class. Their religious beliefs are liberal compared to the Arab world and they are much more westernized in their social outlook then the rest of the Islamic world. They identify more with the west then with the Islamic world. The Saudis changed Paksitani society. With their madrassahs teaching the most conservative and jihadist form of Islam, a whole generation of poor young people have been indoctrinated into Wahhabism. Just recently those madrassahs have been shut down. This situation has caused great concern among the middle class and elites. They fear the jihadists amongst them and because of that they have to be careful of seeming to anti jihadist and pro west. It's a cultural phenomena not a religious one. mentok
"I mean you have to have something to work with, and they didn’t even come close the first time. Jesus, confronted with a typical stoning, said “Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.” " Is this the same practice of stoning that is endorsed by the Divinely revealed Old Testament? (Deuteronomy... Leviticus...I can't recall now.) If God endorses something, could you please explain why it is so bad? "His message was: back to the caves, boys, and let’s shoot up that caravan and slit some throats." Eh, what? His message was: there is no god but God (so don't worship idols made of stone and wood). The pagan response was: we will torture you and throw you out for insulting our gods. The Koran's counter-response was "Permission to fight is given to those who fight because they have been wronged; and God is Able to give them victory. Those who have been driven from their homes unjustly, for no cause other than for their saying: Our Lord is God." (22:39-40) Now where exactly is the problem in all this? "I don’t recall that Jesus made his big break by raiding camel caravans. Totally different deal." Indeed they are totally different deals. The Prophet of Islam(s) is much more comparable to Moses or King David: like them he was required to wage war. Logan
Some say Islam needs a Reformation but I think it goes deeper than that. I mean you have to have something to work with, and they didn’t even come close the first time. Jesus, confronted with a typical stoning, said “Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.” I don’t recall Mohammed ever making that leap and he came 600 years later when a whole lot of folks, not just Jesus, knew better. His message was: back to the caves, boys, and let’s shoot up that caravan and slit some throats. I don’t recall that Jesus made his big break by raiding camel caravans. Totally different deal. If Islam is a religion, then Tookie Williams must qualify as an Imam. Put another way, apologists for Islam are like the folks who rallied for Williams the other day. No diff. It’s a gangsta thing. Sharon Lapkin writes: “But the average Australian seeks a midpoint between these equally vile extremes in which fairness and a single standard of law will apply to all.” A midpoint between vile extremes… Sheese, Sharon, I think we can do better than that. pmob1
This 2004 article by Aussie ex-cop Tim Priest is remarkably prescient: http://www.quadrant.org.au/php/archive_details_list.php?article_id=581 BenK

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