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No, Really, “Bewitched” is Superior To “Brute Fact”

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In my last post I pointed to Walter Meyers’ destruction of Barbara Forest’s three-step argument from (1) the success of science to (2) the superiority of methodological naturalism as a way of knowing about the physical world to (3) the superiority of metaphysical naturalism generally.

To which Bob O’H responded:

Weird. I find Myers’ argument really weak – it’s simply an argument from ignorance.

What makes it weird is that Forrest’s argument is inductive, so there are better ways of constructing a counter-argument. Even weirder, Forrest’s argument for why methodological naturalism isn’t compatible with supernaturalism seems really weak: essentially she suggests that one would need more than one methodology and epistemology, and these should be compatible with each other. I can see why this might be difficult, but I’m not sure why it’s impossible.

To which William J. Murray aptly replied:

Bob O’H

Myers is pointing out that methodological naturalism has not, ultimately, offered an explanation for anything we experience. Also, methodological naturalism is itself limited to describing only that which can be described as the effects of the very forces, laws and constants Myers (and Arrington) is talking about. Methodological naturalism cannot explain or address that which produces the set of effects that M/N describes. It would be a category error to think it could.

That’s not an “argument from ignorance”; that’s pointing out the glaring flaw in Forest’s reasoning. Not only has M/N not provided any explanations (only providing descriptions), it is categorically unable to tackle that which is causing the set of effects it can only describe. Thus, concluding that Metaphysical Naturalism logically follows the “success” of Methodological Naturalism is a rather obvious mistake when Methodological Naturalism requires explanatory forces to exist outside of its descriptive range.

Methodological Naturalism has, if anything, disproved Metaphysical Naturalism and has tacitly agreed it cannot be true ever since it accepted Phenomenalism and began using phenomenalist models as “causes”.

Bob does not seem to understand the underlying point of Meyers’ argument.  Metaphysical naturalism offers no explanation whatsoever – zero, nada, nil, zilch – for why things are the way they are or behave the way they behave.  It is true that methodological naturalism has achieved a great deal of success in building mathematical models that describe the way things behave.  But a description of an observed regularity is not an explanation for why that regularity exists in the first place.

Let me repeat that, because it is the whole point of the matter that seems to elude Bob:  A description of an observed regularity is not an explanation for why that regularity exists in the first place.  I don’t know why this is so difficult for many people to grasp.  Bob is surely not alone; this rather obvious point has eluded Barbara Forest as well.  Nevertheless, my point is both glaringly obvious and not that difficult conceptually.  Methodological naturalism sees no need to explain why phenomena are the way they are.  It is content to simply accept that things ARE the way they are and build models that describe how those things behave.  Therefore, as WJM goes on to point out, it is a (I would think obvious) category error to leap from success in describing observed regularities (methodological naturalism) to support for a metaphysical position that purports to explain the ultimate nature of those regularities and why they obtain in the first place (metaphysical naturalism).

Another way to put it is this:  for both methodological naturalism and metaphysical naturalism, the physical universe and all the phenomena within it are BRUTE FACTS that are accepted as givens.  Neither makes any attempt to explain the ultimate reason why those brute facts exist.  Indeed, at a very basic conceptual level, both are unable to offer any such explanation.

In contrast I have often offered The Ethics of Elfland as an explanation.  Chesterton writes:

The only words that ever satisfied me as describing Nature are the terms used in the fairy books, ‘charm,’ ‘spell,’ ‘enchantment.’ They express the arbitrariness of the fact and its mystery. A tree grows fruit because it is a MAGIC tree. Water runs downhill because it is bewitched.

Of course, Chesterton does not really believe water is bewitched.  He is saying in a tongue-in-cheek way that the explanation “water runs downhill because it is bewitched” is a superior explanation to “water runs downhill because of gravity.”  There cannot be the slightest doubt that Chesterton is correct, because “bewitchment” whether it is correct or wrong, is at least an attempt to explain.  Whereas, “gravity” merely describes what water does.  It makes no attempt to explain why water does it.

You might ask:  OK, Barry, if you are so smart, why do you think water runs downhill?  Good question, in response to which I give you atheist Fred Hoyle:

From 1953 onward, Willy Fowler and I have always been intrigued by the remarkable relation of the 7.65 MeV energy level in the nucleus of 12 C to the 7.12 MeV level in 16 O. If you wanted to produce carbon and oxygen in roughly equal quantities by stellar nucleosynthesis, these are the two levels you would have to fix, and your fixing would have to be just where these levels are actually found to be.  Another put-up job? . . . I am inclined to think so. A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a super intellect has “monkeyed” with the physics as well as the chemistry and biology, and there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature.

Hoyle, Annual Review of Astronomy and Astrophysics, 20 (1982): 16

If Hoyle were speaking in the vernacular of Elfland, he might have said the reason water runs downhill is because “a super intellect has “bewitched” the physics.”  I agree with Hoyle.  A commonsense explanation for why phenomena are the way they are is that a super-intellect has willed them to be that way.  And while this is an explanation that our friends who subscribe to metaphysical naturalism will likely not find salutary, it is at least an explanation – as opposed to the mere description masked as an explanation which they have offered.

 

 

Comments
Joining in at a late date. In the OP, Barry wrote,
Methodological naturalism sees no need to explain why phenomena are the way they are. It is content to simply accept that things ARE the way they are and build models that describe how those things behave.
And what's wrong with that? My position is that we have no way of knowing the metaphysical reasons why things are as they fundamentally are, but we can investigate how they work in relationship to each other. Barry goes on to say,
Therefore, ... it is a ... category error to leap from success in describing observed regularities (methodological naturalism) to support for a metaphysical position that purports to explain the ultimate nature of those regularities and why they obtain in the first place (metaphysical naturalism).
Metaphysical naturalism may not be a valid explanation about why the world is as it is, but neither is "God", "intelligent design" or any other metaphysical speculation any better of a valid explanation. So we should be content to accept methodological naturalism as the right approach for investigating the physical world, and keep that separate from both metaphysical speculations about the physical world and all the various other aspects, not within the domain of science, about how we should live and act in the world. jdk
I'd also point out that Upright Biped seems to think Intelligent Design isn't about ultimate explanations. Apparently, we could have been the result of designers with material nervous systems that are part of an highly advanced, ancient alien civilization, Does that mean Intelligent Design explains nothing? Again, good explanations have reach, which is why I think UB is mistaken. It goes beyond the current problem space, even if that's inconvenient. critical rationalist
Yet another thinly veiled ad hominem. If I misunderstood your position, then why not contrast it from what I wrote? You wrote:
It is true that methodological naturalism has achieved a great deal of success in building mathematical models that describe the way things behave. But a description of an observed regularity is not an explanation for why that regularity exists in the first place.
What is this if not instrumentalism? IOW, your argument is parochial because it is directed as science as instrumentalism. Also, this conflates an explanation with an appeal to authority. And this is some how preferred to "we don't know at this time"?
Methodological naturalism sees no need to explain why phenomena are the way they are. It is content to simply accept that things ARE the way they are and build models that describe how those things behave.
There are two possibilities: either God made the world the way he did because "that's just what God must have wanted", in which case the creationism explains nothing or God had to make the world a certain for some reason, in which case that reason explains why the world works the way it does, not God. Either way, creationism explains nothing. critical rationalist
CR @ 31:
you say science doesn’t explain anything
Wow. Have you even read anything I wrote? I don't know whether to be more alarmed if the answer to that question is "yes" or if it is "no." Barry Arrington
@Barry So, you have no response other than "You didn't notice auto-correct fixed a spelling error with the wrong word"? Again, we seem to have vastly different goals. I want to solve problems, including moral problems. You seem more concerned with sources. If moral knowledge isn't about solving concrete moral problems people face, then what good is it? For example, in the case of the problem of unwanted or dangerous pregnancies, I’ve mentioned the possibility of transplanting a fetus to an artificial womb. This was likely discarded as being wild speculation. However, as I pointed out, unless something is prohibited by the laws of physics, the only thing that would prevent us from achieving it is knowing how. We know it does not violate the laws of physics because a womb is constructed from a single cell and raw materials. And, recently, Children's Hospital of Philadelphia actually created one, implanted a fetal lamb and successfully brought it to term. Explanations about how the world works allows us to solve problems. And we can be mistaken about them because they start out as guess about an unseen reality that explains the sceen. As such, all observations are themselves theory laden. Furthermore, when you say science doesn’t explain anything, you seem to be referring to is what Popper called Instrumentalism.
”Instrumentalism can be formulated as the thesis that scientific theories - the theories of the so-called "pure" sciences - are nothing but computational rules (or inference rules); of the same character, fundamentally, as the computation rules of the so-called "applied" sciences. (One might even formulate it as the thesis that "pure" science is a misnomer, and that all science is "applied".) Now my reply to instrumentalism consists in showing that there are profound differences between "pure" theories and technological computation rules, and that instrumentalism can give a perfect description of these rules but is quite unable to account for the difference between them and the theories.”
“The tendency of instrumentalism is anti-rationalistic. It implies that human reason cannot discover any secret of our world. Thus we do not know more about the world today than we did four hundred years ago. Our knowledge of facts has not increased: only our skill in handling them, and our knowledge of how to construct gadgets. There is no scientific revolution, according to instrumentalism: there is only an industrial revolution. There is no truth in science: there is only utility. Science is unable to enlighten our minds: it can only fill our bellies.”
IOW, our ability to solve problems with technology doesn’t need to be viewed though an instrumentalist lens. We can solve problems because our explanatory theories have reach beyond the initial problem scope. They refer to explanations of how the world works, in reality. critical rationalist
Let’s repeat, as Barry tried to do in the OP that “the whole point of the matter that seems to elude Bob,” and now our other interlocutors:
A description of an observed regularity is not an explanation for why that regularity exists in the first place. I don’t know why this is so difficult for many people to grasp. Bob is surely not alone; this rather obvious point has eluded Barbara Forest as well. Nevertheless, my point is both glaringly obvious and not that difficult conceptually. Methodological naturalism sees no need to explain why phenomena are the way they are. It is content to simply accept that things ARE the way they are and build models that describe how those things behave. Therefore, as WJM goes on to point out, it is a (I would think obvious) category error to leap from success in describing observed regularities (methodological naturalism) to support for a metaphysical position that purports to explain the ultimate nature of those regularities and why they obtain in the first place (metaphysical naturalism). Another way to put it is this: for both methodological naturalism and metaphysical naturalism, the physical universe and all the phenomena within it are BRUTE FACTS that are accepted as givens. Neither makes any attempt to explain the ultimate reason why those brute facts exist. Indeed, at a very basic conceptual level, both are unable to offer any such explanation. (emphasis added)
In other words, methodological naturalism is NOT philosophical (metaphysical) naturalism. They do not ask or answer the same basic questions. As I pointed out earlier @ 7 above, ”The fact is we cannot even begin to do science unless we make some metaphysical assumptions about science.” Furthermore, ”…these presuppositions themselves cannot be proven by empirical science. Therefore, a science based epistemology, i.e. “scientism,” of any kind cannot be true.” https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/no-really-bewitched-is-superior-than-brute-fact/#comment-631111 john_a_designer
Hamm- Both men admitted that the complexity they found in the natural world could not be caused by random un-directed chance happenings. Now with this mindset its easier to believe they looked for design and organisation in nature and the physical world and exploited this design to do the great work they accomplished. whether I believe aeroplanes are engineered and designed will have no bearing on my ability to become a great pilot, but if they were not engineered and designed they would not be here for me to pilot them in the first place. So saying great man have made great strides in inventions and science with no reference to God is irrelevant as it has no bearing on who set the conditions of the physical world to begin with. Marfin
Marfin:
Seversky. At 23 thats funny considering the father of anti- biotics Ernst Borris Chain and the father of modern rocketry Wernher von Braun both believed in God.
This is true, but was it their belief in God that they used to make these advances or was it their use of nat/mat understandings? hammaspeikko
CR @ 26
So, what I want from a theory is its content not its providence.
I think you mean "provenance." Or maybe not. Barry Arrington
Who's to say there will ever be some ultimate theory of of everything? Solving problems leads to even better problems, which lead to even better problems etc. IOW, it's unclear that will stop. And even if it did, why should we assume it will stop anywhere in particular? As for "a description of an observed regularity" we observe nothing as it really is. Everything is theory laden. For example, our eyes only detect light, which is turned in to electrical impulses, which are interpreted by our brains. To say that materialism only accepts the seen is to ignore this. Furthermore, what I want is to solve problems. So, what I want from a theory is its content not its providence. critical rationalist
Marfin @ 24: You left out Maxwell, a devout Christian on whose shoulders Einstein stood. According to Wiki, Maxwell's equations "underpin all electric, optical and radio technologies, including power generation, electric motors, wireless communication, cameras, televisions, computers." Once again we find a materialist (in this case Sev) trying to take credit for materialism that which was based on the work of a Christian. Shameless really. Barry Arrington
Seversky. At 23 thats funny considering the father of anti- biotics Ernst Borris Chain and the father of modern rocketry Wernher von Braun both believed in God. Marfin
john_a_designer @ 9
In other words, even if, as a world view, naturalism or materialism completely lacks any explanatory scope or power… It could still be true, That’s what I believe, Therefore, no other worldview is warranted. That appears to be Sev’s reasoning: He believes it that settles it.
Nat/mat has given us radio, TV, computers, satellites, spaceships and probes we can direct to virtually any point we choose in our solar system. It's given us vaccines and steadily improving treatments for a range of diseases that were previously intractable. It has led us to theories of electromagnetism, relativity and quantum mechanics which have revealed facets of the world we had no idea even existed before. No, it's not the whole truth, probably far from it, but it's all evidence of explanatory power that nothing else even comes close to. Seversky
For the uninitiated I will translate Sev's response at 21 from Darwin-speak to plain English: "No, this time we've really got the goods. We've only been at it a few hundred years. The answer is just around the corner, certainly no more than a few hundred more years. In the meantime, shut up." Barry Arrington
Barry Arrington @ 18
Sev: “Does that mean there never will be?” Sev issues yet another materialist promissory note. That’s getting to be quite a stack of negotiable instruments there Sev. I,for one, would never pay close to par.
Okay, we have a 13.75bn year old universe which we're trying to decode from scratch basically. No user's manual. We've been at it for a few hundred years maybe but still haven't cracked it. So how long do you think it should take us? Seversky
Barry Arrington @ 17
Sev, “I thought I made it clear that by “worked pretty well” I meant explanations than enabled us to learn things, do things and create things that we could not have done before we had them.” And anyone paying attention knows that is not the level of explanation (i.e., practical science) that Myers, Forest, WJM and I have been talking about. And, no, at the level we have been talking about, materialists have nothing (as you admit in your very next comment). And as explanations go, “nothing” is not better than “bewitched.” And it is certainly not better than “willed by a super-intellect.”
Yes, I know we haven't reached the level of explanation you're all talking about. No one has. Yet. But the level of explanation we have reached is way better than "bewitched" at this level Seversky
Seversky @ 16,
No, there are no ultimate naturalistic or materialistic explanations for any of those phenomena – not yet, at least. Does that mean there never will be? We have no way of knowing so why shouldn’t we keep working away at them to see how far we can get?
In other words, even if, as a world view, naturalism or materialism completely lacks any explanatory scope or power… It could still be true, That’s what I believe, Therefore, no other worldview is warranted. That appears to be Sev’s reasoning: He believes it that settles it. john_a_designer
Sev: "Does that mean there never will be?" Sev issues yet another materialist promissory note. That's getting to be quite a stack of negotiable instruments there Sev. I,for one, would never pay close to par. Barry Arrington
Sev, "I thought I made it clear that by “worked pretty well” I meant explanations than enabled us to learn things, do things and create things that we could not have done before we had them." And anyone paying attention knows that is not the level of explanation (i.e., practical science) that Myers, Forest, WJM and I have been talking about. And, no, at the level we have been talking about, materialists have nothing (as you admit in your very next comment). And as explanations go, "nothing" is not better than "bewitched." And it is certainly not better than "willed by a super-intellect." Barry Arrington
john_a_designer @ 13
Naturalism or materialism cannot provide:
*1. An ultimate explanation for existence. Why does anything at all exist? *2. An explanation for the nature of existence. Why does the universe appear to exhibit teleology, or Design and Purpose? *3. A sufficient foundation for truth, knowledge and meaning. *4. A sufficient foundation for moral values and duties. . *5. An explanation for what Aristotle called form and what we call information. Specifically how did chemistry create the code in DNA or RNA? *6. An explanation for mind and consciousness. How does mindless matter “create” consciousness and mind? If consciousness and mind are just an appearance how do we know that? *7. An explanation for the apparently innate belief in the spiritual– a belief in God or gods, and the desire for immortality and transcendence.
No, there are no ultimate naturalistic or materialistic explanations for any of those phenomena - not yet, at least. Does that mean there never will be? We have no way of knowing so why shouldn't we keep working away at them to see how far we can get? How far do you think we'd have got if, every time we hit a hard problem, we just gave up and said "It's God's will. Don't bother about it. We can't do anything about it since it is His will anyway." Seversky
Barry Arrington @ 10
Sev, writes: “So far, naturalistic explanations have worked pretty well” Well, if by “pretty well” you mean “not in the least,” you are quite correct. The fact remains that science is mute when it comes to explaining why water runs downhill the way it does (as opposed to describing how water runs downhill the way it does). I am glad that you seem to understand that Barbara Forest’s argument has no merit.
I thought I made it clear that by "worked pretty well" I meant explanations than enabled us to learn things, do things and create things that we could not have done before we had them. For example, without James Clerk Maxwell's equations relating electricity and magnetism pretty much all the electronic technology we take for granted, including the computers we are using, would not exist. No, we don't have any ultimate materialistic or naturalistic explanations, not yet at least, but what we do have are a hell of a lot better than nothing at all and certainly better then "bewitchment". Seversky
I move that we consider giving them an award for that. Any seconds?
Hear, hear! And it's not like I'm a cynic/snarky for nothing. Occasionally, I will attempt to have a rational conversation with an Atheist (Armand was the latest), and invariably I discover that this one too, is every caricature of every Online Atheist I have ever come across. My apologies to the exceptions (I suspect they do exist). Andrew asauber
Naturalism or materialism cannot provide:
*1. An ultimate explanation for existence. Why does anything at all exist? *2. An explanation for the nature of existence. Why does the universe appear to exhibit teleology, or Design and Purpose? *3. A sufficient foundation for truth, knowledge and meaning. *4. A sufficient foundation for moral values and duties. . *5. An explanation for what Aristotle called form and what we call information. Specifically how did chemistry create the code in DNA or RNA? *6. An explanation for mind and consciousness. How does mindless matter “create” consciousness and mind? If consciousness and mind are just an appearance how do we know that? *7. An explanation for the apparently innate belief in the spiritual-- a belief in God or gods, and the desire for immortality and transcendence.
Of course the atheistic naturalist will dismiss numbers 6 or 7 as illusions and make up "a just-so story" to explain them away. But how do they know they are just illusions? The truth is they really don’t know and they certainly cannot prove that they are. They just believe. How ironic! To be an atheist/naturalist/ materialist you must believe a lot-- well actually everything-- on the basis of faith. However, they are good at doing one thing. They are good at pretension and posturing. I move that we consider giving them an award for that. Any seconds? john_a_designer
Origenes: When it comes to one's metaphysics, that is what one is talking about - ultimate explanations. Forest thinks that methodological naturalism's capacity to offer increasingly detailed and effective descriptions (which are very, very useful) should count towards adopting it as an ultimate explanation. The problem is that methodological naturalism also requires reference to and assumption of phenomenalistic causes (gravity) and immaterial commodities (math, logic, free will) and principles (truth, etc) to come up with such descriptions and have them mean anything or be of any value. IOW, methodological naturalism is a misnomer because 2/3 of the process requires, refers to or assumes the immaterial. Its success hardly indicates the validity of metaphysical materialism when it requires non-materialistic commodities to be successful. William J Murray
Is the idea that only ultimate explanations count as "explanations"? For instance, when science identifies bacteria as the cause for infections, but cannot explain bacteria, then science has not provided an (ultimate) explanation for infections? Origenes
Sev, writes: "So far, naturalistic explanations have worked pretty well" Well, if by "pretty well" you mean "not in the least," you are quite correct. The fact remains that science is mute when it comes to explaining why water runs downhill the way it does (as opposed to describing how water runs downhill the way it does). I am glad that you seem to understand that Barbara Forest's argument has no merit. Barry Arrington
In contrast I have often offered The Ethics of Elfland as an explanation. Chesterton writes:
The only words that ever satisfied me as describing Nature are the terms used in the fairy books, ‘charm,’ ‘spell,’ ‘enchantment.’ They express the arbitrariness of the fact and its mystery. A tree grows fruit because it is a MAGIC tree. Water runs downhill because it is bewitched.
Of course, Chesterton does not really believe water is bewitched. He is saying in a tongue-in-cheek way that the explanation “water runs downhill because it is bewitched” is a superior explanation to “water runs downhill because of gravity.” There cannot be the slightest doubt that Chesterton is correct, because “bewitchment” whether it is correct or wrong, is at least an attempt to explain. Whereas, “gravity” merely describes what water does. It makes no attempt to explain why water does it.
If Chesterton intended that passage to be taken tongue-in-cheek then it's just charmingly silly. In any other way it's just wrong. A theory of gravity - descriptive or otherwise - that explains why water runs downhill, enables men to land on the moon and can send robot spacecraft to where a planet will be many years in the future is a pretty damn good explanation. Try doing that using "bewitchment". The metabolic disorder of diabetes was known at least as far back as ancient Egypt but it wasn't until the early twentieth century that the work of Canadians Banting and Best revealed the existence of insulin and its role in glucose metabolism. Their work has enabled effective management of the disease that has kept millions alive and will hopefully lead eventually to a cure. That work owed nothing to the supernatural but everything to methodological naturalism as employed in medical research. Where Myers is being disingenuous is in failing to make clear that explanation is not a simple concept. Since I know that he and others here will not take my word for anything, try the following passage from English theologian, Michael Poole. It comes from a brief exchange of letters he had with Richard Dawkins on the subject, not surprisingly, of religion and science.
To explain something is to make it plain and there are various ways of doing this. The literature on the nature of explanation is vast, but Brown and Atkins have set out a simple analysis of the concept:
Our typology consists of three main types of explanation. These may be labelled the Interpretive, the Descriptive and the Reason-Giving. They approximate to the questions, What?, How?, and Why? Interpretive explanations interpret or clarify an issue or specify the central meaning of a term or statement ... Descriptive explanations describe processes structure and procedures ... Reason-giving explanations involve giving reasons based on principles or generalisations, motives, obligations values. So, typically, an object such as a thermostat might have a number of compatible explanations: An interpretive explanation A thermostat is a device for maintaining a constant temperature. A descriptive explanation A (particular) thermostat consists of a bimetallic strip in close proximity to an electrical contact. A reason-giving (scientific) explanation Constant temperature is maintained because, when the temperature falls, the bimetal strip bends so making electrical contact. It switches on a heater which operates until at a predetermined temperature, the bimetal strip bends away from the contact, thereby breaking the circuit. A reason-giving (motives) explanation An agent wished to be able to maintain enclosures at constant temperatures to enable people to work comfortably, ovens to cook evenly, and chickens to hatch successfully.
It is with the reason-giving explanations that our concerns lie. For it needs to be understood that there is no logical conflict between reason-giving explanations which concern mechanisms, and reason-giving explanations which concern the plans and purposes of an agent, human or divine. This is a logical point, not a matter of whether one does or does not happen to believe in God oneself. For it is an invalid reason for rejecting the concept of a divine creator, that we understand how the world came into being. But this point is one which Dawkins consistently overlooks. He fails to acknowledge that there is no logical contradiction between the claim that living things are the outcome of evolution by natural selection and that they could also be the outcome of the plan and purposes of an agent God.
The key point here is that there are different types and different levels of explanation which are not incompatible. Yes, at a fundamental level, I am made of fermions and bosons but a human being is more than just that; just as a house is, at one level, a pile of bricks but a pile of bricks is not necessarily a house. When Myers and WJM criticize MN for failing to provide some sort of ultimate explanation they are accusing it of failing to achieve something that, in the first instance, it does not try to achieve. Of course, everyone would love to find the ultimate explanation of everything but MN starts with a much more modest aim, to come up with different operational explanations of what's right in front of us and find ways of testing those explanations to find which works best. So far, naturalistic explanations have worked pretty well, supernatural ones not so much. What do you think that tells us? Seversky
@john_a_designer, your no 7 (my hache key brings up the pound sign) 'There is thus a wide-ranging consonance between Christianity and the presuppositions of science.” I've been musing a bit lately on what strikes me as the extraordinary similarity between the remorselessly methodical codification of empirical science, and the same, still ongoing, painstakingly pedantic prudence, with which the Catholic church, arguably intellectually top-heavy for its area of expertise, codfies everything : its official theology, canon law, catechesis, you name it... It surely would have invented empirical science, even if it hadn't !!! I believe I've posted John-Paul II's catechesis on the angels on here before, but I was stunned by his scholarly exposition of the subject, simply (certainly, copiously) on the basis of the scriptures. But it would be far from anomalous in its erudition. It beautifully exemplifies the faith-knowledge continuum I believe in (Peter : 'Lord, we believe, we know, you are the Son of God.'), as has the progress of the discoveries of physics, during the past hundred years or so. It would correspond with space-time, wouldn't it ? The criterion Einstein stated he used in selecting his hypotheses was aesthetic. When they try to ape the wisdom of Einstein, the poster-boy for ID, materialists just sound comical don't they ; when they talk about an elegant potential solution, for example. Likewise, the imagination Einstein valued above intelligence. How and where do beauty and imagination fit into the meterialists' philosophy, I wonder ? More atoms colliding randomly, I suppose. Axel
Up above @3 I pointed out that despite the hubris of some philosophically naïve scientists, there are some important metaphysical questions that science cannot answer. However, the inadequacy of science is not limited to questions that it cannot answer. The fact is we cannot even begin to do science unless we make some metaphysical assumptions about science. Ironically, at least according to physicist and theologian Ian Barbour, the assumptions that a scientist must make to do science are basically Biblical assumptions. "A good case can be made,” Barbour writes, “that the doctrine of creation helped set the stage for scientific activity." Christian philosopher Peter S. Williams, who provides the above quote from Barbour in his on-line article, “Does Science Disprove God?” lists several presuppositions of science that he argues “derive warrant from the theistic doctrine of creation:
• That the natural world is real (not an illusion) and basically good (and hence worth studying) • That the natural world isn’t divine (i.e. pantheism is false) and so it isn’t impious to experiment upon it • That the natural world isn’t governed by multiple competing and/or capricious forces (i.e. polytheism is false) • That the natural world is governed by a rational order • That the human mind is, to some degree, able to understand the rational order displayed by the natural world • That human cognitive and sensory faculties are generally reliable • That the rational order displayed by the natural world cannot be deduced from first principles, thus observation and experiment are required”
Again, notice that these presuppositions themselves cannot be proven by empirical science. Therefore, a science based epistemology, i.e. “scientism,” of any kind cannot be true. Williams observes that, “There is thus a wide-ranging consonance between Christianity and the presuppositions of science.” He then goes on to quote Barbour again. "Both Greek and biblical thought asserted that the world is orderly and intelligible. But the Greeks held that this order is necessary and that one can therefore deduce its structure from first principles. Only biblical thought held that God created both form and matter, meaning that the world did not have to be as it is and that the details of its order can be discovered only by observation. Moreover, while nature is real and good in the biblical view, it is not itself divine, as many ancient cultures held, and it is therefore permissible to experiment on it… it does appear that the idea of creation gave a religious legitimacy to scientific inquiry." http://www.bethinking.org/does-science-disprove-god/is-christianity-unscientific. Barbour is not alone here. Both Alfred North Whitehead and American physicist Robert Oppenheimer understood that historically a Christian milieu was in fact necessary for the development of modern science. The famous Christian writer and University of Cambridge professor C.S. Lewis summarized the position this way: “Men became scientific because they expected Law in Nature, and they expected Law in Nature because they believed in a [Lawgiver.]” Indeed, all the early scientist who were part of the so-called scientific revolution: Copernicus, Galileo, Kepler and Newton were Christian theists. Far from being a hindrance the theistic assumptions that these earlier scientists made were essential to the whole scientific enterprise. john_a_designer
It just struck me that you're confused about what I was arguing. I wasn't arguing about the whole of Myer's post, merely about his criticism of Forrest. The whole area of what we mean by "explanation" is a deep area of epistemology, which I didn't want to get into. It's not obvious to me what would count as an explanation of the physical world that wouldn't be a description. But I'm not a philosopher, and the last book I tried to read on this subject put me to sleep in about 20 pages. Bob O'H
Bob, you start your comment off with: "I find Myers’ argument really weak – it’s simply an argument from ignorance." Myers' argument was that Forest was wrong for the reasons we have explained. And the argument that Forest advanced and Myers destroyed was that one can extrapolate from the success of science to the acceptance of metaphysical naturalism. That is the argument you said was weak. I responded by explaining why the argument is not weak. If you want to respond by pretending you did not say that, well, OK. But I don't see how that advances the ball. Barry Arrington
Barry, as well as mis-spelling Walter Myers III's name (could be worse - you could have called him PZ Myers III), you also mis-represented my argument. I'll repeat my response to William:
You write that “methodological naturalism has not, ultimately, offered an explanation for anything we experience”. Well, no. But that’s not the point of MN. Methodological naturalism is an assumption that underlays scientific explanations: it is the science that does the explaining. Thus, you seem to be guilty of a category error, as MN does not itself seek to explain anything.
The reason "[m]etaphysical naturalism offers no explanation whatsoever – zero, nada, nil, zilch – for why things are the way they are or behave the way they behave." is that it isn't intended to. So when you write
It is true that methodological naturalism has achieved a great deal of success in building mathematical models that describe the way things behave.
you mistake MN for Science (which is built using MN, of course). So, are you (and William?) confusing science for methodological naturalism? They are clearly different beasts - MN is just an epistemic assumption. Bob O'H
The philosophical naturalist has deluded himself into thinking he has a trump card which bolsters his hand… science. The problem is that there are no trump cards in the high stakes world view ontological game. This is because in order to even begin to play the game you must establish the ground of being. You must begin by asking some basic questions. For example, you must ask, why does anything at all exist? Or, what is the nature of existence? How do we know? How can we be sure of what we know? Can we really know the truth about anything? However these are metaphysical questions, not questions that can be answered by science itself. Einstein said that scientists are poor philosophers. That perhaps explains why there are some scientists who believe that science can actually serve as a basis for a world view that can answer some of our biggest questions—at least those that are worthwhile. The late American astronomer Carl Sagan, for example, proclaimed that “the Cosmos is all that there is or ever was or ever will be.” (That is a claim that is not scientifically provable.) And, Nobel Prize winner Steven Weinberg opines that while “the worldview of science is rather chilling” there is, nevertheless, he goes on to say, “a grim satisfaction, in facing up to our condition without despair and without wishful thinking--with good humor… without God.” And then there is Harvard professor of psychology Steven Pinker who takes a scientifically based world view just about to its absolute limit. Pinker writes that,
the findings of science entail that the belief systems of all the world’s traditional religions and cultures—their theories of the origins of life, humans, and societies—are factually mistaken. We know, but our ancestors did not, that humans belong to a single species of African primate that developed agriculture, government, and writing late in its history. We know that our species is a tiny twig of a genealogical tree that embraces all living things and that emerged from prebiotic chemicals almost four billion years ago. We know that we live on a planet that revolves around one of a hundred billion stars in our galaxy, which is one of a hundred billion galaxies in a 13.8-billion-year-old universe, possibly one of a vast number of universes. We know that our intuitions about space, time, matter, and causation are incommensurable with the nature of reality on scales that are very large and very small. We know that the laws governing the physical world (including accidents, disease, and other misfortunes) have no goals that pertain to human well-being. There is no such thing as fate, providence, karma, spells, curses, augury, divine retribution, or answered prayers—though the discrepancy between the laws of probability and the workings of cognition may explain why people believe there are. And we know that we did not always know these things, that the beloved convictions of every time and culture may be decisively falsified, doubtless including some we hold today. In other words, the worldview that guides the moral and spiritual values of an educated person today is the worldview given to us by science.
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/114127/science-not-enemy-humanities On the other hand, there are other scientists, including some who are non-religious, even agnostic or atheistic, who see the folly of this kind of thinking. For example, Sir Peter Medawar, also a Nobel laureate, was one scientist who spoke out against this so called scientism. He wrote in his book, Advice to a Young Scientist:
“There is no quicker way for a scientist to bring discredit upon himself and upon his profession than roundly to declare – particularly when no declaration of any kind is called for – that science knows, or soon will know, the answers to all questions worth asking, and that questions which do not admit a scientific answer are in some way non-questions or ‘pseudo-questions’ that only simpletons ask and only the gullible profess to be able to answer. … The existence of a limit to science is, however, made clear by its inability to answer childlike elementary questions having to do with first and last things – questions such as ‘How did everything begin?'; ‘What are we all here for?';’What is the point of living?'” Advice to a Young Scientist, London, Harper and Row, 1979 p.31
Also, Erwin Schrödinger, one of the early theorists of quantum physics, said something similar: “Science puts everything in a consistent order but is ghastly silent about everything that really matters to us: beauty, color, taste, pain or delight, origins, God and eternity.” john_a_designer
Another question: how is it that mathematics and logic - abstract concepts - are the reasons why such models are so successful when it comes to prediction? Can you point out mathematics and logic in the natural world? Can you tell me where they reside? Do they reside in the things being described? IOW, methodological natural models not only do not explain the things they describe, those models are only successful because they use abstract concepts not found anywhere in the material world for their accuracy. Not to mention, such models fundamentally rely on the free will capacity of scientists and engineers to acquire and assess valid information and coerce their physical brains and bodies into conformity with such facts and truths in order to be confident about their measurements, descriptions and predictions. The only "methodologically natural" part of the whole process is just the stuff one is observing and measuring; everything else - including the phenomenalist model causes, the mental tools and necessary assumptions about the nature of one's existence in order to even consider such efforts worth trying - are all metaphysical. William J Murray
"Bob does not seem to understand the underlying point of Meyers’ argument." Agreed. Also, an OT comment for rvb8 (I know you're reading). How's that "penny drop" idea working out for you? We are only getting stronger. See below: http://Cvent.com Truth Will Set You Free

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