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L&FP, 47: The challenge of “proof” in a world of radical doubt and hyperskepticism

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“Prove it . . .” is a familiar challenge, one, often strengthened to “unless you prove it I can disregard what you claim.” However, ever since Epictetus, c. 100 AD, it has met its match:

Epictetus c 50 – 135 AD

DISCOURSES
CHAPTER XXV

How is logic necessary?

When someone in [Epictetus’] audience said, Convince me that logic is necessary, he answered: Do you wish me to demonstrate this to you?—Yes.—Well, then, must I use a demonstrative argument?—And when the questioner had agreed to that, Epictetus asked him. How, then, will you know if I impose upon you?—As the man had no answer to give, Epictetus said: Do you see how you yourself admit that all this instruction is necessary, if, without it, you cannot so much as know whether it is necessary or not? [Notice, inescapable, thus self evidently true and antecedent to the inferential reasoning that provides deductive proofs and frameworks, including axiomatic systems and propositional calculus etc. Cf J. C. Wright]

Lesson one, there are unproven antecedents of proof, including the first principles of right reason, here especially laws of logic. In this case, if one tries to prove, one is already using them and if one tries to object one cannot but use them, so we sensibly accept them as self-evident, pervasive first principles.

As there are always those who need it, pardon a diagram that abstracts from a bright red ball A on a table, to help us recognise the first cluster of such principles:

Okay, okay, here is my actual example of a ball on the table:

And, here is one in the sky, for good measure, Betelgeuse, as it dimmed in 2019 . . . identity with change:

In for a penny, in for a pound. Let me suggest a partial but useful list of such principles of logic and wider right reason . . . and yes, this chart marks a stage in my understanding of Cicero’s point:

This is already a big hint on our limitations in reasoning. We may now bring to bear in effect the Agrippa trilemma, to see how chains of proof and wider warrant confront us with a triple challenge, leading to having to — usually, implicitly — accept finitely remote first plausibles:

A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way}

We are already duly humbled.

It gets “worse.”

For, “proof” itself is a slippery concept. The very model is of course Euclidean Geometry, with its complex system of theorems — derived from, uh, ah, um, first claims, i.e. axioms. Which, in this case, were subjected to a huge debate and now Mathematical systems are often viewed as logic-game worlds constructed from frameworks of axioms we find interesting and/or useful.

Then, came Godel, and SEP is helpful:

Gödel’s two incompleteness theorems are among the most important results in modern logic, and have deep implications for various issues. They concern the limits of provability in formal axiomatic theories. The first incompleteness theorem states that in any consistent formal system F within which a certain amount of arithmetic can be carried out, there are statements of the language of F which can neither be proved nor disproved in F. According to the second incompleteness theorem, such a formal system cannot prove that the system itself is consistent (assuming it is indeed consistent). These results have had a great impact on the philosophy of mathematics and logic . . .

Proof, in the sense, accessibility from some reasonable, finite cluster of axioms, for systems of reasonable complexity, is thus different from truth. Truth, accurate description of states of affairs. (And BTW, practical axiomatisations typically are built to be compatible with recognised facts, some of which may be self-evident like || + ||| –> |||||.)

Already, we are in trouble. It gets deeper once we come to Science. As in, follow the Science, Science has proved etc. Next to me is a gift [thanks Aunt X], “Proving Einstein right.” Only, science is incapable of such strong-sense proof. We may empirically support theories as explanations through empirical evidence, but at most we can say our theories are plausible and may prove — test out — to be at least partly true but are subject to the limits of inductive thinking. That is, we face the pessimistic induction, that our explanations that seemed ever so plausible have historically consistently been sharply limited or outright wrong often enough to give us pause.

We already saw a weaker sense of to prove, to test with some rigor. Bullet proof, means, tested and found credibly resistant to certain specified standard projectiles.

So, by extension scientific proofs can be reinterpreted to mean that science is a case of weak-sense knowledge: tested, warranted, credibly . . . or plausibly, or even possibly . . . true [so, reliable] belief.

It gets worse, welcome to . . . tada . . . RHETORICAL proof. Pisteis, as in:

Richard Nordquist

Updated July 30, 2019

In classical rhetoric, pistis can mean proof, belief, or state of mind.

Pisteis (in the sense of means of persuasion) are classified by Aristotle into two categories: artless proofs ( pisteis atechnoi), that is, those that are not provided by the speaker but are pre-existing, and artistic proofs ( pisteis entechnoi), that is, those that are created by the speaker.”
A Companion to Greek Rhetoric, 2010

Etymology: From the Greek, “faith”

Yes, pisteis comes from pistis, for faith, confident (and hopefully well supported) trust. Which brings up Aristotle’s three main appeals of “artistic” proof, pathos, ethos, logos. Roughly, force of emotions, force of credibility [to bring trust], force of facts and logic. Our emotions have a cognitive aspect and so we can asses the quality of judgements and expectations. Authorities, experts or even witnesses carry credibility to varying degrees but are no better than underlying facts, assumptions, reasoning. So, in the end it is to facts logic and associated assumptions that we must go. And, lo, behold, the result: reasonable, responsible faith.

Our humbling is now complete. We cannot but live by faith, the issue is, which faith, why. Where, hyperskepticism is now exposed as smuggling a certain unquestioned faith in the back door.

This brings us full circle to common sense principles, that we should heed Locke: roughly, we should accept that it is better to walk by the limited and perhaps flickering candle-light we have, than to demand full light of day and snuff out the candle, leaving us in the dark.

Coming back to a recent diagram, here we are, as credibly embodied, error prone but knowing creatures sharing a common world:

Reason, warrant and truth are not fully captured in the net we call proof. Where, too, proof itself is not as firm as we may naively imagine. Let us therefore seek prudence. END

Comments
Note, KF, what is absent from this back and forth. You have not asked what embodiment means in my perspective. You have not asked how it still provides a credible resource of information by which knowledge can be confidently gathered, knowledge we need in order to successfully operate our lives? I could go on, but in short you keep assuming your own straw man interpretations instead of asking me the "how" of these things under my perspective. You just assume there is no way. You just assume your own interpretations and then respond to those even though I've repeatedly told you those interpretations are wrong. The actual evidence is on my side. But, by all means, keep tilting at windmills. Keep referring to classic philosophers who did not have access to the evidence we now have when building their "common sense" perspectives based on "common experience."William J Murray
July 27, 2021
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KF said:
WJM, you seem to have forgotten that when, on strength of your admission, I noted that we agreed on credibility of embodiment you suddenly backed away.
That never happened. What happened is that I pointed out that while we both agree that our embodiment was not only credible, but unquestionable, that doesn't mean you get to include along with that your ontological interpretation of what embodiment means. Your ontological interpretation of what embodiment means has been disproved and mine has been credibly supported by 100 years of experimental results. Dread it. Run from it. The evidence arrives all the same.William J Murray
July 27, 2021
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WJM, you seem to have forgotten that when, on strength of your admission, I noted that we agreed on credibility of embodiment you suddenly backed away. For cause, I note that among the first facts of consciousness is that of embodiment, through which we sense our orientation and pose in the world and thus also other entities therein, decisively shaping our thought and inference. I add, this includes scientific investigations, which manifestlt take our embodiment and the physical world seriously. Any scheme of thought about the world and knowledge that opens the door to radical doubt about or holding delusional on such facts fatally undermines its own credibility; sawing off the branch on which it sits. The thought exercise of one hour's cessation from breathing and effects, should be enough of a test. Such schemes of radical doubt are incoherent, absurd, discrediting the minds we need to think. They can safely be dismissed as breaches of common sense [the old rule 4 IIRC of one of my high schools]. KF PS: Quantum, molecular etc physics changed our understanding of how solids liquids and gases are made up from micro-level components, not the concept that there are macroscopic solids [retaining shape and volume up to elastic deformation], liquids [flowing under internal shear but retaining volume], gases [having neither definite shape nor volume].kairosfocus
July 27, 2021
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MNY, actually a proof is defined first by discussion then by key example, a bullet proof material or structure has been tested and shown resistant to some standard projectile. I clip:
Proof, in the sense, accessibility from some reasonable, finite cluster of axioms, for systems of reasonable complexity [--> deductive sense typified by Math], is thus different from truth. [--> Godel incompleteness] Truth, accurate description of states of affairs. (And BTW, practical axiomatisations typically are built to be compatible with recognised facts, some of which may be self-evident like || + ||| –> |||||.) Already, we are in trouble. It gets deeper once we come to Science. As in, follow the Science, Science has proved etc. Next to me is a gift [thanks Aunt X], “Proving Einstein right.” Only, science is incapable of such strong-sense proof. We may empirically support theories as explanations through empirical evidence, but at most we can say our theories are plausible and may prove — test out — to be at least partly true but are subject to the limits of inductive thinking. That is, we face the pessimistic induction, that our explanations that seemed ever so plausible have historically consistently been sharply limited or outright wrong often enough to give us pause. We already saw a weaker sense of to prove, to test with some rigor. Bullet proof, means, tested and found credibly resistant to certain specified standard projectiles. So, by extension scientific proofs can be reinterpreted to mean that science is a case of weak-sense knowledge: tested, warranted, credibly . . . or plausibly, or even possibly . . . true [so, reliable] belief. It gets worse, welcome to . . . tada . . . RHETORICAL proof.
We are already seriously humbled from our notion of a firm and absolute grasp on truth by the power of our mind to deduce or to infer from observed reliable patterns. Now, rhetorical proof comes back in the door-- it was there since Aristotle et al -- to finish the due humbling:
Richard Nordquist Updated July 30, 2019 In classical rhetoric, pistis can mean proof, belief, or state of mind. ” Pisteis (in the sense of means of persuasion) are classified by Aristotle into two categories: artless proofs ( pisteis atechnoi), that is, those that are not provided by the speaker but are pre-existing, and artistic proofs ( pisteis entechnoi), that is, those that are created by the speaker.” A Companion to Greek Rhetoric, 2010 Etymology: From the Greek, “faith”
So, we stand duly humbled before, say, the Webster's 1828 Dictionary, which captures a lost world of by and large forgotten knowledge:
Proof PROOF,noun 1. Trial; essay; experiment; any effort, process or operation that ascertains truth or fact. Thus the quality of spirit is ascertained by proof; the strength of gun-powder, of fire arms and of cannon is determined by proof; the correctness of operations in arithmetic is ascertained by proof 2. In law and logic, that degree of evidence which convinces the mind of the certainty of truth of fact, and produces belief. proof is derived from personal knowledge, or from the testimony of others, or from conclusive reasoning. proof differs from demonstration, which is applicable only to those truths of which the contrary is inconceivable. This has neither evidence of truth, nor proof sufficient to give it warrant. 3. Firmness or hardness that resists impression, or yields not to force; impenetrability of physical bodies; as a wall that is of proof against shot. See arms of proof 4. Firmness of mind; stability not to be shaken; as a mind or virtue that is proof against the arts of seduction and the assaults of temptation.
We need to do some re-thinking. KFkairosfocus
July 27, 2021
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KF said:
WJM, embodiment cannot be disproved by science, science in fact starts from embodied practitioners.
Who said otherwise? This is a continuation of your straw man.
Science studies the common physical world that we inhabit.
Again, who said otherwise? More straw man.
Theories as to molecular, atomic and particle structure do not change the core of what it means to be a solid, liquid, gas body etc.
That's exactly what 100 years of experimentation has done., KF. It has, in fact, irrefutably changed the core of what that means. Dread it. Run from it. The evidence arrives all the same. Your ontology/epistemology, like that of materialists, has been scientifically disproved, whether you like it or not.William J Murray
July 26, 2021
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Kairosfocus LCD, we are dealing with a distraction, one cannot address worldviews properly until one first shows that there is a way to recognise facts of consciousness and credibility of rational inference. Basic common sense comes first. In thye OP we address the matter of proof thus disproof. And in particular, if a scheme of thought discredits first facts of consciousness it discredits rationality thus becomes self-referentially absurd. We are dealing with attempts to defend absurdities connected to hyperskepticism of types that were injected by Descartes and others, leading to many needless conundrums. KF
So true and so smart.
WJM We are 100%, absolutely, credibly embodied.
WJM My ontological perspective of what “embodied” means is completely supported by about 100 years of scientific evidence.
WJM practically says :"we are embodied 100% but ... we are not embodied"Lieutenant Commander Data
July 26, 2021
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Also, this discussion contintues to be ridiculous. KF asks, what is proof? Then throws out any logical definition of it, becaus that logical definition would only apply to some part of mathematics, and not to science and life in general. So then without any logical definition of what proof is, KF then argues that proof is a matter of moral judgement. Wich means, proof is whatever you morally judge it to be. Complete aribitrariness. When you throw out logic, then you have a total breakdown of all reasoning. A logical definition of proof is required.mohammadnursyamsu
July 26, 2021
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To be "embodied", it means the body has some kind of organization in terms of decisionmaking processes, and the subjective human spirit decides. The spirit being subjective, there is no objective evidence for it whatsoever. So the statement that it cannot be doubted people are embodied, is wrong. One might produce a personal opinion that someone has no soul, that the spirit is not there. That could be considered to be a very mean opinion, but being mean is not logically invalid.mohammadnursyamsu
July 26, 2021
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LCD, we are dealing with a distraction, one cannot address worldviews properly until one first shows that there is a way to recognise facts of consciousness and credibility of rational inference. Basic common sense comes first. In thye OP we address the matter of proof thus disproof. And in particular, if a scheme of thought discredits first facts of consciousness it discredits rationality thus becomes self-referentially absurd. We are dealing with attempts to defend absurdities connected to hyperskepticism of types that were injected by Descartes and others, leading to many needless conundrums. KFkairosfocus
July 26, 2021
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WJM, embodiment cannot be disproved by science, science in fact starts from embodied practitioners. Similarly, Science studies the common physical world that we inhabit. Theories as to molecular, atomic and particle structure do not change the core of what it means to be a solid, liquid, gas body etc. but only draw out hos such works. Solids still retain their shape absent stress induced deformation, liquids still flow under the shearing effect of their weight, gases expand to fill a container, etc. It still remains the case that a computational substrate is a non rational, IPO, GIGO limited signal processing mechanical entity. Rationality cannot be explained on computation, as it requires freedom, we are looking at oracles there. And so forth. KFkairosfocus
July 26, 2021
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We are 100%, absolutely, credibly embodied. The question is, what does that mean, ontologically speaking? KF's ontological perspective of what "embodied" means has been scientifically disproved. My ontological perspective of what "embodied" means is completely supported by about 100 years of scientific evidence. Dread it. Run from it. The evidence arrives all the same.William J Murray
July 26, 2021
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LCD said:
Kairosfocus would be fun to dismantle piece by piece IRT worldview comparing it with Christianity worldview ,from Origins to Teleology to make WJM stop even mention “his IRT” .
That would be fun, but KF has never shown an interest in understanding IRT. He's apparently satisfied with dismantling his straw men over .. and over ... and over ... and ...William J Murray
July 26, 2021
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KF said:
WJM, sorry, once you backed away from your acknowledgement that we are credibly embodied, it is over.
Only, I never did any such thing. Straw man.
The cascade of grand delusions issue is not going to go away for any proposed view that pivots on skeptically suggesting general unreliability of our embodiment and other first facts of consciousness. KF
At this point, after repeatedly correcting you, it's appears you have some kind of cognitive blindness operating. And, that's the charitable interpretation.William J Murray
July 26, 2021
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Jerry Has anyone heard the expression, “mirage?”
Where is the unreliability of our senses in case of a mirage ?
Kairosfocus WJM, sorry, once you backed away from your acknowledgement that we are credibly embodied, it is over. The cascade of grand delusions issue is not going to go away
Kairosfocus would be fun to dismantle piece by piece IRT worldview comparing it with Christianity worldview ,from Origins to Teleology to make WJM stop even mention "his IRT" .Lieutenant Commander Data
July 26, 2021
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WJM, sorry, once you backed away from your acknowledgement that we are credibly embodied, it is over. The cascade of grand delusions issue is not going to go away for any proposed view that pivots on skeptically suggesting general unreliability of our embodiment and other first facts of consciousness. KFkairosfocus
July 26, 2021
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KF @55: As I said and have explained exhaustively, you are responding to your straw man version of IRT. It has nothing to do with my actual IRT, regardless of how often you repeat yourself. To repeat: Here’s the problem your worldview faces, KF: your interpretation of what “embodiment” and “physical world” means has been scientifically disproved. Those experiences remain, but those experiences must mean something other than what your ontology and epistemology require. Thus, because your O/E system requires a disproved interpretation, your entire O/E system, like the O/E system of materialists, has been disproved. Dread it. Run from it. The evidence arrives all the same.William J Murray
July 25, 2021
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LCD said:
What reliable sense did WJM use to reach the conclusion that our senses are unreliable?
WJM never said or implied that our senses are unreliable. In fact, WJM has repeatedly said the opposite.William J Murray
July 25, 2021
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Jerry said:
If someone came along and said the beach is not there. It’s just our interpretation of our fallible senses, we would humor the person for a short time, but after persistence, ignoring is the only nonorable option. Those who continue to engage are the fools.
The problem is, nobody has said "the beach is not there," and the IRT interpretation of what the experience of the beach means does not indict that sensory information as erroneous. The sensory information is not erroneous; the interpretation of what that information means and refers to has been shown via repeated scientific experimentation to be erroneous. Dread it. Run from it. The evidence keeps arriving all the same. Hat tip to Thanos.William J Murray
July 25, 2021
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Yes, our senses are not perfectly reliable. Everyone since the hunter gatherers has known this. We frequently make mistakes of judgment based on imperceptions. Has anyone heard the expression, “mirage?” This does not mean that the senses cannot observe the material world reliably. We are constantly reassessing the world based on further observation by ourselves and inputs from others. The observations get incredibly reliable after such additional focusing. I am currently looking out the window at our rental unit on the New Jersey shore. I cannot see the beach but know if I go out the front door and walk two blocks it will be there. It will be there tomorrow and every day we are here the beach will be in the same place. Everyone staying with us agrees the beach is there. Fantastically reliable observations by mine and everyone else’s senses. If someone came along and said the beach is not there. It’s just our interpretation of our fallible senses, we would humor the person for a short time, but after persistence, ignoring is the only nonorable option. Those who continue to engage are the fools.jerry
July 25, 2021
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More from Salvatore:
To sum up, ‘rules of grammar’ have three features which make them different from empirical knowledge claims. First, they are not descriptive but normative; second, they cannot be confirmed or disconfirmed by reality but rather are ways to make sense of reality; finally, they are not propositions as their negation is not false but senseless.
In short, we have a window on self-evident truths and on the modern hesitation to acknowledge such. KFkairosfocus
July 25, 2021
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What reliable sense did WJM use to reach the conclusion that our senses are unreliable?Lieutenant Commander Data
July 25, 2021
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WJM, our experience is of embodiment, through which we experience other aspects of the world and facilitate reflection. Radical "reinterpretation" is, whether you acknowledge or not, tantamount to that experience being a shadow show. A strong illustration of this is the natural sense taken by the vast majority of humanity (and animals for that matter). A thought-test to consider (not to actually carry out due to fatal consequences) would be the stop breathing for an hour exercise. The Plato's Cave shadow show challenge with level 1, 2, 3 . . . successive delusions cannot be evaded. I have already outlined on various experiences of dream states and of visionary character. If you imagine that a common sense approach that uses law of distinct identity to distinguish mind from body [rational, responsible freedom going beyond GIGO constrained so inherently non rational ipo computational substrates], then extends the oracle machine concept to look at a Smith two tier controller cybernetic loop approach to embodiment is not materially different from evolutionary materialism, that speaks for itself. KFkairosfocus
July 25, 2021
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It is by far more important to understand the logical definition of proof, because then you know what to aim for. You have not actually accepted the logical definition of what a fact is. You just only emphasize subjective warranted feelings of certitude. Subjective standards like satisfactory, reasonable, competent evidence, etc. are generally besides the point, because they are much arbitrary. When is the evidence good enough that the covid vaccines are safe? I would say after 3 years of detailed study of the effects of it. Other people have other standards. I would say my standards are better. Other people make many other subjective judgements, than I do. I could charge that their subjective judgements are "evil", "careless". And viceversa it can be charged. And the choices based on these subjective judgements are actionable, that they can be punished if subjectively found to be careless etc.mohammadnursyamsu
July 24, 2021
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KF said:
Re-labelling a fairly serious reductio issue .
I haven't re-labeled anything. I've pointed out that the labels do not, and should not, determine how we think about that which has been labeled. Labels do not represent reality; the are ways of pointing at something. The labels "sensory experience" and "experience of embodiment" do not point at any particular ontological arrangement of what is being labeled because those labels point at the experience itself, not the ontological interpretation of that experience.
as a strawman caricature simply underscores the force of the point.
The only person here using "strawman "caricatures" here is you, when you claim I am doubting the experience itself, and not just a particular ontological interpretation of that experience.
The issue, clearly, is not objections to my particular worldview...
My objections are specifically to you, about the worldview you are expressing here. If those other fellas were here, I'd be objecting to them about their worldviews. That others share your worldview is entirely irrelevant.
[and notice dodging of the issues being raised by serious names . . . in reply to the corrosive hyperskepticism of Western thought over the past several centuries], but undermining of basic rationality rooted in common good sense.
When Moore, Wittgenstein, Reid or Plantinga show up here, I'll be happy to take up my argument with them. Your appeals to them are irrelevant; you can either make your case here or you cannot. Nobody is being "hyperskeptical" of "basic rationality" whatsoever. As far as "common sense," honestly, if your argument relies on appeals to "common sense," you don't even have a substantial argument. As I said, it is apparent you cannot or will not accept that there is a fundamental difference between what we experience and what we believe that experience means or refers to. You don't get your interpretation for free; your appeal to "common sense" has no weight; your appeal to "common human experience" is a projection of your own experiences writ large; your insistence that my perspective is inherently self-referentially absurd and leads to "grand delusion" is entirely a strawman argument because you clearly do not understand my argument and repeatedly mischaracterize it; you arguments about duty to right reason is one of mind-reading and projection which you hold as if you know my thoughts and motivations better than I do. Your "argument" consists entirely of regurgitating your own ontology and epistemology over and over and over as if it somehow applies to mine, as if it can be used to evaluate mine, spending almost zero time even trying to understand mine. You take what I say, change it to what the words I say mean under your paradigm, and respond to that as if that is what I meant when I said those words, even in the teeth of being corrected multiple times. Because of this, it seems to me that you are incapable of understanding concepts that diverge from your own ontological/epistemological perspective. Either you do not understand them, or you're just refusing to address those actual concepts, and are choosing to restate them as different concepts entirely so that you can issue forth canned responses to them. Here's the problem your worldview faces, KF: your interpretation of what "embodiment" and "physical world" means has been scientifically disproved. Those experiences remain, but those experiences must mean something other than what your ontology and epistemology require. Thus, your entire O/E system, like the O/E system of materialists, has been disproved. You can keep clinging to it if you wish, but IMO you are no different than those that remain ideologically committed to materialism or forms of Darwinism.William J Murray
July 24, 2021
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Re-labelling a fairly serious reductio issue . . . names like Moore, Wittgenstein, Reid or Plantinga et al are not to be lightly disregarded . . . as a strawman caricature simply underscores the force of the point.
1: Our self-aware consciousness is the first fact of our mental life, involving both responsible rational freedom AND compelling evidence of embodiment. (If one gins up doubt on the latter, contrive to cease breathing for an hour or so, then see if one can come back for onward discussion, an exercise that, predictably will not be done by a sober minded individual. ) 2: If the rationality and/or basic accuracy of core mind comes under serious doubt if certain worldview claims are entertained, this undermines credibility of thought in general for that worldview. (Such is manifestly self-defeating.) 3: The common sense approach therefore accepts that while errors exist they cannot be accepted as plausibly pervasive, or even the perception of error vs accuracy is in doubt . . . we are error-prone and are bound to seek warrant towards responsible reason and truth, but errors are local not global. 4: By contrast, grand skepticism narratives privilege doubt and/or denial (similar to the Cartesian or Plato's cave patterns etc), and so open the door to grand delusion. As a class, they fall under 1 and 2. ______________________ C1: We can never warrant a grand delusion hypothesis, it is self-referentially incoherent, self-defeating and self-destructive to rationality. Such includes denial of embodiment, cave type narratives man vs dreaming butterfly claims, brains in vats, deceitful cosmos controlling demons etc. Any worldview that leads to such is self-discrediting. Basic common sense, without responsible rational, self-aware freedom reasoned thought is impossible so anything that "reasons" to utter irrationality is absurd. C2: Any hypothesis that allows or invites or asserts grand delusion in the door is absurd and may be disregarded as self-refuting, self-falsifying. C3: This leaves the common sense approach that accepts our embodiment and recognises that mind rises above GIGO-bound computational substrates as "last man standing," i.e. the human mind involves properties of an [extended] oracle machine as part of the supervision of our cybernetic loop, embodiment. C4: This implies in effect trans-dimensionality of our nature. Mind and linked conscience cannot credibly be accounted for on mere action, structure and programming of computational substrates. True rational responsible free mind implies an oracle. C5: Thus, there is room for reality beyond our physical, causal temporal domain and reductionism that seeks to claim mind as epiphenomena of computational substrates or the like, but such does not undermine physicality and our embodiment. We may speak to the spirit or the soul meaningfully. This is of course far extended from the basic first common sense point of taking embodiment and rational, community of such persons seriously. See the going concern chart in the OP. C6: Spiritual or the like, obviously does not exclude malevolent intelligent agents [starting with fellow humans sold out to evil such as a Stalin or a Schicklegruber etc, but also our own inner strugles], but it does imply their limited character. Reality rooted in ultimate evil and deception as a facet of that ultimate root is off the cards. And yes, we are here looking at ultimate metaphysics, root-source of reality thus worldviews . . . the sustained programme of studiously subverting addressing basic common sense has forced me to speak briefly for record. C7: In that context we must discern spirits, including whether particular dream worlds, visions and participative visions are true or misleading. (In a previous thread, I spoke to this for record on repeated demand and hints of my having no basis to address, far from it, I sought to deal with the basic common sense rationality.) C8: Classically, for cause, the test of sound discernment has been regard for Jesus of Nazareth, his incarnation, service, teachings, miracles -- including deliverance from malevolent spirits, death, burial and resurrection with 500 witnesses. Disregard for such is a red flag that in such there is no light of day. So is cultivation of hyperskeptical dismissivenesss. Likewise, systematic distortion. C9: The very fact that such is likely to be scoffed at and/or dismissed today is itself a strong sign of how far wrong our civilisation now is.
The issue, clearly, is not objections to my particular worldview [and notice dodging of the issues being raised by serious names . . . in reply to the corrosive hyperskepticism of Western thought over the past several centuries], but undermining of basic rationality rooted in common good sense. Are we rational with credible minds, senses and proprioception*? If one cannot answer, yes, our errors will be limited, one destroys the basis for objective reason and serious conversation guided by first duties of responsible reason. * proprioception:
Examination of the Sensory System Steven McGee MD, in Evidence-Based Physical Diagnosis (Fourth Edition), 2018 Proprioception I Definition Proprioception allows individuals to detect joint motion and limb position when their eyes are closed.17 Like most of the simple sensations, proprioception has distinct sense organs and ascending pathways in the spinal cord. Unlike simple sensations, however, full perception requires a healthy contralateral cerebral cortex; in this way it resembles cortical sensations.18,19 (See the section on Cortical Sensations.) Sir Charles Bell originally called proprioception the “sixth sense.” In 1906, Sherrington introduced the term “proprioception” to describe this sensation.17,20
In short, ability to accurately sense body orientation and pose in the world, i.e. specifics of embodiment. A vital necessity for survival. A core first fact of our conscious self-awareness in the common world. It is through these that we access other facts.kairosfocus
July 24, 2021
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KF, Yes, we have been down this road several times, and you're still tilting at straw men, at least when it comes to your responses to my comments. You keep reiterating arguments that do not apply to what I have said, as if they do. At this point, I don't think you are capable of actually understanding my argument and position, or my objections to various aspects of your ontology/epistemology. I've corrected you many, many times, to no apparent avail.William J Murray
July 24, 2021
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Further, all of this is in effect distractive from the focal issue in the OP, that we have to sort out our gaps in addressing the concept, proof. I note here, Simon Greenleaf, in his multivolume Evidence . . . and, note the direct echo of Webster's 1828::
Evidence, in legal acceptation, includes all the means by which any alleged matter of fact, the truth of which is submitted to investigation, is established or disproved . . . None but mathematical truth is susceptible of that high degree of evidence, called demonstration, which excludes all possibility of error [--> Greenleaf wrote almost 100 years before Godel], and which, therefore, may reasonably be required in support of every mathematical deduction. [--> that is, his focus is on the logic of good support for in principle less than utterly certain conclusions, i.e. in the modern sense, inductive logic and reasoning in real world, momentous contexts with potentially serious consequences.] Matters of fact are proved by moral evidence alone; by which is meant, not only that kind of evidence which is employed on subjects connected with moral conduct, but all the evidence which is not obtained either from intuition, or from demonstration. In the ordinary affairs of life, we do not require demonstrative evidence, because it is not consistent with the nature of the subject, and to insist upon it would be unreasonable and absurd. [--> the issue of warrant to moral certainty, beyond reasonable doubt; and the contrasted absurdity of selective hyperskepticism.] The most that can be affirmed of such things, is, that there is no reasonable doubt concerning them. [--> moral certainty standard, and this is for the proverbial man in the Clapham bus stop, not some clever determined advocate or skeptic motivated not to see or assent to what is warranted.] The true question, therefore, in trials of fact, is not whether it is possible that the testimony may be false, but, whether there is sufficient probability of its truth; that is, whether the facts are shown by competent and satisfactory evidence. Things established by competent and satisfactory evidence are said to be proved. [--> pistis enters; we might as well learn the underlying classical Greek word that addresses the three levers of persuasion, pathos- ethos- logos and its extension to address worldview level warranted faith-commitment and confident trust on good grounding, through the impact of the Judaeo-Christian tradition in C1 as was energised by the 500 key witnesses.] By competent evidence, is meant that which the very-nature of the thing to be proved requires, as the fit and appropriate proof in the particular case, such as the production of a writing, where its contents are the subject of inquiry. By satisfactory evidence, which is sometimes called sufficient evidence, is intended that amount of proof, which ordinarily satisfies an unprejudiced mind [--> in British usage, the man in the Clapham bus stop], beyond reasonable doubt. The circumstances which will amount to this degree of proof can never be previously defined; the only legal [--> and responsible] test of which they are susceptible, is their sufficiency to satisfy the mind and conscience of a common man; and so to convince him, that he would venture to act upon that conviction, in matters of the highest concern and importance to his own interest.
[= definition of moral certainty as a balanced unprejudiced judgement beyond reasonable, responsible doubt. Obviously, i/l/o wider concerns, while scientific facts as actually observed may meet this standard, scientific explanatory frameworks such as hypotheses, models, laws and theories cannot as they are necessarily provisional and in many cases have had to be materially modified, substantially re-interpreted to the point of implied modification, or outright replaced; so a modicum of prudent caution is warranted in such contexts -- explanatory frameworks are empirically reliable so far on various tests, not utterly certain. Morally certain facts of observation and experience in our common world are not necessary truths.]
[A Treatise on Evidence, Vol I, 11th edn. (Boston: Little, Brown, 1888) ch 1., sections 1 and 2. Shorter paragraphs added. (NB: Greenleaf was a founder of the modern Harvard Law School and is regarded as a founding father of the modern Anglophone school of thought on evidence, in large part on the strength of this classic work.)]
kairosfocus
July 24, 2021
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We have been down this road before. I repeat for cause: "Once the first experience of consciousness, through which others are acquired is deemed dubious, the onward cascade is obvious . . . self-referential absurdity."kairosfocus
July 24, 2021
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The complete superiority of the creationist conceptual scheme over all the other philosophical stuff: 1. Because the creationist logic is inherent in ordinary common discourse, it is therefore God given 2. It covers reality in it's entirety, leaves nothing out 3. It has no logical errors 4. It is practically useful, as creationist logic is used in common discourse by everyone 5. It defines subjectivity and opinion 6. It defines objectivity and fact 7. It directly supports the main mechanism of intelligent design theory, which is choice 8. It is in line with nature, because as the creationist conceptual scheme has 2 fundamental categories, so also the brain has 2 halves. 9. It is the most intellectually honest theory, because it is in line with common discourse. So then there is no duplicity between common discourse sayings, and intellectual sayings. 10. In it's application in common discourse it presents a continuity and shared understanding, of all people everywhere, throughout history. 11. The creationist conceptual scheme is the lesson that should be learned from the holocaust, where asserting matters of opinion as if they were matters of fact (social darwinism), led to personal and societal catastrophy. 12. It is the most fundamental theory possible, because there is nothing more fundamental than origins, and the creationist conceptual scheme covers origins. 1. Creator / chooses / spiritual / subjective / opinion 2. Creation / chosen / material / objective / fact Where choosing is defined in terms of spontaneity, making one of alternative futures the present. Or, to make a possible future the present, or not the present. And opinion is defined as a chosen expression based on emotion, which expression identifies a creator, and the attributes of a creator like personal character and emotions. And fact is defined as a 1 to 1 corresponding model of a creation in the mind, forced by the evidence of it.mohammadnursyamsu
July 23, 2021
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Apparently, KF, you are conflating the experience of embodiment (a given) and sensory experience (again, a given) with perspectives about what those experiences mean, what they refer to, how to organize them, etc. Once again: I'm not doubting the experience of embodiment and I'm not doubting sensory experience other than anyone would regardless of their beliefs because we all know error exists. You can repeat it any number of times to make it seem like I am doubting my experience of embodiment, or doubting my sensory experience more than what is appropriate given the potential for error in any belief system, but that is entirely a straw man. I do not doubt those things. What I am challenging is what those things mean, what they refer to. Are you incapable of understanding that distinction? I've repeated it now many times.William J Murray
July 23, 2021
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