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L&FP, 57: What is naturalism? Is it a viable — or even the only viable — worldview and approach to knowledge?

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What is naturalism? (And why do some speak in terms of evolutionary materialistic scientism?)

While everything touched on by philosophy is of course open to disagreements and seemingly endless debate, we can find a good enough point of reference through AmHD:

3. Philosophy The system of thought holding that all phenomena can be explained in terms of natural causes and laws.
4. Theology The doctrine that all religious truths are derived from nature and natural causes and not from revelation.

The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy suggests:

The term “naturalism” has no very precise meaning in contemporary philosophy. Its current usage derives from debates in America in the first half of the last century. The self-proclaimed “naturalists” from that period included John Dewey, Ernest Nagel, Sidney Hook and Roy Wood Sellars. These philosophers aimed to ally philosophy more closely with science. They urged that reality is exhausted by nature, containing nothing “supernatural”, and that the scientific method should be used to investigate all areas of reality, including the “human spirit” (Krikorian 1944, Kim 2003) . . . . Those philosophers with relatively weak naturalist commitments are inclined to understand “naturalism” in a unrestrictive way, in order not to disqualify themselves as “naturalists”, while those who uphold stronger naturalist doctrines are happy to set the bar for “naturalism” higher.[2]

The Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy comments:

Naturalism is an approach to philosophical problems that interprets them as tractable through the methods of the empirical sciences or at least, without a distinctively a priori project of theorizing. For much of the history of philosophy it has been widely held that philosophy involved a distinctive method, and could achieve knowledge distinct from that attained by the special sciences. Thus, metaphysics and epistemology have often jointly occupied a position of “first philosophy,” laying the necessary grounds for the understanding of reality and the justification of knowledge claims. Naturalism rejects philosophy’s claim to that special status. Whether in epistemology, ethics, philosophy of mind, philosophy of language, or other areas, naturalism seeks to show that philosophical problems as traditionally conceived are ill-formulated and can be solved or displaced by appropriately naturalistic methods. Naturalism often assigns a key role to the methods and results of the empirical sciences, and sometimes aspires to reductionism and physicalism.

Then, there is Wikipedia, speaking of its own core tendencies:

In philosophy, naturalism is the idea or belief that only natural laws and forces (as opposed to supernatural ones) operate in the universe.[1]

<<Naturalism is not so much a special system as a point of view or tendency common to a number of philosophical and religious systems; not so much a well-defined set of positive and negative doctrines as an attitude or spirit pervading and influencing many doctrines. As the name implies, this tendency consists essentially in looking upon nature as the one original and fundamental source of all that exists, and in attempting to explain everything in terms of nature. Either the limits of nature are also the limits of existing reality, or at least the first cause, if its existence is found necessary, has nothing to do with the working of natural agencies. All events, therefore, find their adequate explanation within nature itself. But, as the terms nature and natural are themselves used in more than one sense, the term naturalism is also far from having one fixed meaning. — Dubray 1911>>

According to philosopher Steven Lockwood, naturalism can be separated into an ontological sense and a methodological sense.[2] “Ontological” refers to ontology, the philosophical study of what exists. On an ontological level, philosophers often treat naturalism as equivalent to materialism. For example, philosopher Paul Kurtz argues that nature is best accounted for by reference to material principles. These principles include mass, energy, and other physical and chemical properties accepted by the scientific community. Further, this sense of naturalism holds that spirits, deities, and ghosts are not real and that there is no “purpose” in nature. This stronger formulation of naturalism is commonly referred to as metaphysical naturalism.[3] On the other hand, the more moderate view that naturalism should be assumed in one’s working methods as the current paradigm, without any further consideration of whether naturalism is true in the robust metaphysical sense, is called methodological naturalism.[4] With the exception of pantheists—who believe that Nature is identical with divinity while not recognizing a distinct personal anthropomorphic god—theists challenge the idea that nature contains all of reality.

So, already, we can see why it is quite reasonable to speak of “evolutionary materialistic scientism,” as that explicitly summarises a relevant, even dominant, form of naturalism commonly seen on the ground, especially in scientific and policy contexts.

Namely, following AmHD, the scheme of thought or view that “all phenomena can be explained in terms of natural causes and laws.” That is, evolutionary materialism from hydrogen to humans, and scientism that reduces knowledge and know-ability to scientific approaches shaped by this a priori such that science as conceived monopolises or even dominates what can be called knowledge. Much as Lewontin, the US National Science Teachers, Martin Mahner, Monod and others have variously said.

Lewontin’s well-known phrase is that Science is “the only begetter of truth.”

Manifestly, such a claim fails.

First, the scientism is self refuting, self referentially incoherent (and depends on its institutionalised power to get us to lock out other perfectly valid approaches to warrant that substantiates knowledge . . . with, of course, the first duties of reasoning lurking out of the fog).

Of course, some here may appeal to an older sense of “Science,” meaning, systematic study on reasonable and responsible principles leading to an agreed body of discussion and knowledge with best practices, i.e. a discipline. In this older sense, Theology had reason to claim to be Queen of the Sciences, especially as she embraced a good slice of philosophy. If you are unwilling to acknowledge Theology and Philosophy or Ethics as sciences, then you cannot appeal to that older sense of science. And if one insists on science as pivoting on empirical observation and linked explanatory theorising (especially when mathematical analysis can be applied), then a core part of doing science is not science, Mathematics, the study of the logic of structure and quantity . . . applied and extended logic of being.

That’s before one recognises that the claim Science monopolises or so dominates knowledge that once it steps in, all else is silenced, is not a scientific claim. It is a proposed thesis of epistemology, the philosophical study of knowledge, warrant and related matters. That is, scientism is self referentially incoherent and absurd.

Once these points are realised, the idea that we may freely impose so-called methodological naturalism without having smuggled in metaphysical naturalism, collapses. Instead, we must open ourselves instead to any valid approach to learning and warranting what we may learn; and in that context, the legitimacy of philosophy, logic of being [i.e. ontology], wider metaphysics, epistemology, logic, ethics and even aesthetics is obvious. So is the credibility of historical and forensic or common sense knowledge, and so are many other approaches to knowledge that can meet the duties to truth, right reason, warrant and wider prudence.

Indeed, we may make a minimal algebraic analysis, regarding any distinctly identifiable field of study amenable to careful reasoned discussion:

The truth claim, “there are no [generally knowable] objective truths regarding any matter,” roughly equivalent to, “knowledge is inescapably only subjective,” is an error. Which, happily, can be recognised and corrected.

Often, such error is presented and made to seem plausible through the diversity of opinions assertion, with implication that none have or are in a position to have a generally warranted, objective conclusion. This, in extreme form, is a key thesis of the nihilism that haunts our civilisation, which we must detect, expose to the light of day, correct and dispel, in defence of civilisation and human dignity. (NB: Sometimes the blind men and the elephant fable is used to make it seem plausible, overlooking the narrator’s implicit claim to objectivity.)

Now, to set things aright, let’s symbolise: ~[O*G] with * as AND. It intends to describe not mere opinion but warranted, credible truth about knowledge in general.

So,

~[O*G] = 1 . . .

is self referential as it is clearly about subject matter G, and is intended to be a well warranted objectively true claim.

But it is itself therefore a truth claim about knowledge in general intended to be taken as objectively true, which is what it tries to deny as a possibility.

So, it is self contradictory and necessarily false:

PHASE I: Let a proposition be represented by x G = x is a proposition asserting that some state of affairs regarding some matter in general including history, science, the secrets of our hearts, morality etc, is the case O = x is objective and knowable, being adequately warranted as credibly true}

PHASE II: It is claimed, S= ~[O*G] = 1, 1 meaning true

However, the subject of S is G, it therefore claims to be objectively true, O and is about G
where it forbids O-status to any claim of type G
so, ~[O*G] cannot be true per self referential incoherence

PHASE III: The Algebra, translating from S: ~[O*G] = 0 [as self referential and incoherent cf above] ~[~[O*G]] = 1 [the negation is therefore true]
_______________________________________________________
CONCLUSION I: O*G = 1 [condensing not of not] where, G [general truth claim including moral ones of course]

So too, O [if an AND is true, each sub proposition is separately true]

CONCLUSION II: That is, there are objective truths for any distinctly identifiable topic of study; and a first, self evident one is that ~[O*G] is false, ~[O*G] = 0. The set of knowable objective truths in general — and embracing those that happen to be about states of affairs in regard to right conduct etc — is non empty, it is not vacuous and we cannot play empty set square of opposition games with it.

That’s important.

Also, there are many particular objective general and moral truths that are adequately warranted to be regarded as reliable. Try, Napoleon was once a European monarch and would be conqueror. Try, Jesus of Nazareth is a figure of history. Try, it is wrong to torture babies for fun, and more.

Ours is a needlessly confused age

The scientism part has failed.

So does the evolutionary materialism part (once we realise that to do science we must be rationally, responsibly free and this cannot be reduced to computation on a blindly mechanical substrate), as for example J B S Haldane long since pointed out. Let us — yes again — cite him, reframing in terms of laid out propositions:

“It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For

if

[p:] my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain

[–> taking in DNA, epigenetics and matters of computer organisation, programming and dynamic-stochastic processes; notice, “my brain,” i.e. self referential]
______________________________

[THEN]

[q:] I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true.

[–> indeed, blindly mechanical computation is not in itself a rational process, the only rationality is the canned rationality of the programmer, where survival-filtered lucky noise is not a credible programmer, note the functionally specific, highly complex organised information rich code and algorithms in D/RNA, i.e. language and goal directed stepwise process . . . an observationally validated adequate source for such is _____ ?]

[Corollary 1:] They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically.

And hence

[Corollary 2:] I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. [–> grand, self-referential delusion, utterly absurd self-falsifying incoherence]

[Implied, Corollary 3: Reason and rationality collapse in a grand delusion, including of course general, philosophical, logical, ontological and moral knowledge; reductio ad absurdum, a FAILED, and FALSE, intellectually futile and bankrupt, ruinously absurd system of thought.]

In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” [“When I am dead,” in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209. Cf. here on (and esp here) on the self-refutation by self-falsifying self referential incoherence and on linked amorality.]

Re-conceive us as oracle machines, where the in the cybernetic loop neural network processors are also interacting with a supervisory oracle, and we arrive at Eng Derek Smith’s sort of vision:

The Eng Derek Smith Cybernetic Model

Notice, this is not a low level analysis of say an insect, the point is that we can see a supervisor, interacting through say quantum influences, with not instinct but rational, responsible wisdom. True freedom of the rational soul is back on the table, whatever the likes of a Provine may imagine, by suggesting that “human free will is nonexistent . . . . humans are locally determined systems that make choices. They have, however, no free will.”

So, are you sufficiently responsibly and rationally free to make a rational objection, pivoting on first principles and duties of reason? If so, evolutionary materialistic scientism is dead; if not, then what may be chemically sound as a matter of cause effect chains in your brain, has no framework to claim more than being a product of GIGO limited computation. So, it has no power to properly claim warrant on ground-consequent relations or inference to best explanation etc.

Naturalism, as commonly proposed, fails. END

Comments
F/N: It seems advisable to clarify the term, "nature." First, Merriam Webster gives a cluster of relevant senses:
Definition of nature 1 : the external world in its entirety 2 : natural scenery enjoyed the beauties of nature 3a : disposition, temperament it was his nature to look after others— F. A. Swinnerton her romantic nature b : the inherent character or basic constitution (see constitution sense 2) of a person or thing : essence the nature of the controversy 4a : humankind's original or natural condition b : a simplified mode of life resembling this condition escape from civilization and get back to nature 5 : a kind or class usually distinguished by fundamental or essential characteristics documents of a confidential nature acts of a ceremonial nature 6 : the physical constitution or drives of an organism especially : an excretory organ or function —used in phrases like the call of nature 7 : the genetically controlled qualities of an organism nature … modified by nurture— E. G. Conklin 8a : a creative and controlling force in the universe b : an inner force (such as instinct, appetite, desire) or the sum of such forces in an individual
Wikipedia testifies as to its ideological bent:
Nature, in the broadest sense, is the physical world or universe. [--> contrast Plato in The Laws Bk X, cf. below, and the concept highlighted above, " the inherent character or basic constitution (see constitution sense 2) of a person or thing"] "Nature" can refer to the phenomena of the physical world, and also to life in general. The study of nature is a large, if not the only, part of science. Although humans are part of nature, human activity is often understood as a separate category from other natural phenomena.[1] The word nature is borrowed from the Old French nature and is derived from the Latin word natura, or "essential qualities, innate disposition", and in ancient times, literally meant "birth".[2] In ancient philosophy, natura is mostly used as the Latin translation of the Greek word physis (?????), which originally related to the intrinsic characteristics of plants, animals, and other features of the world to develop of their own accord.[3][4] The concept of nature as a whole, the physical universe, is one of several expansions of the original notion;[1] it began with certain core applications of the word ????? by pre-Socratic philosophers (though this word had a dynamic dimension then, especially for Heraclitus), and has steadily gained currency ever since. During the advent of modern scientific method in the last several centuries, nature became the passive reality, organized and moved by divine laws.[5][6] With the Industrial revolution, nature increasingly became seen as the part of reality deprived from intentional intervention: it was hence considered as sacred by some traditions (Rousseau, American transcendentalism) or a mere decorum for divine providence or human history (Hegel, Marx). However, a vitalist vision of nature, closer to the presocratic one, got reborn at the same time, especially after Charles Darwin.[1] Within the various uses of the word today, "nature" often refers to geology and wildlife. Nature can refer to the general realm of living plants and animals, and in some cases to the processes associated with inanimate objects—the way that particular types of things exist and change of their own accord, such as the weather and geology of the Earth. It is often taken to mean the "natural environment" or wilderness—wild animals, rocks, forest, and in general those things that have not been substantially altered by human intervention, or which persist despite human intervention. For example, manufactured objects and human interaction generally are not considered part of nature, unless qualified as, for example, "human nature" or "the whole of nature". This more traditional concept of natural things that can still be found today implies a distinction between the natural and the artificial, with the artificial being understood as that which has been brought into being by a human consciousness or a human mind. [--> notice, nature vs art cf Plato, and the attempt to confine art to human art, never mind our inability to exhaust intelligent creativity] Depending on the particular context, the term "natural" might also be distinguished from the unnatural or the supernatural.[1]
We here see much of the problem of the dominance of that form of naturalism that boils down to evolutionary materialistic scientism, with fellow travellers. Similarly, the subtle distancing from distinct identity, that A is itself i/l/o its core characteristics, i.e. nature is tied to logic of being and first principles of reason that has to reckon with things and states of affairs as they are. Where, lastly, nature vs art [techne] and signs of these as causal factors are at the heart of the validity of the design inference. So, we must seek clarity and truthfulness at this point. Well worth pondering, cf next, Plato. KFkairosfocus
July 24, 2022
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"Purpose" the magic word that make materialism disappear unless someone knows the chemical composition of purpose. Water: H2O , Purpose: ____ :lol: PS: materialists have to stick only with atoms and molecules to make their case. Unfortunately to define materialism they have to use a thought but using a thought(a nonmaterial idea) they destroy the intrinsic idea of materialism. Saying silence make silence disappear. Saying materialism make materialism disappear.Lieutenant Commander Data
July 24, 2022
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How many threads have discussed free will? Hundreds, so here we go again.jerry
July 24, 2022
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Seversky said:
We find ourselves existing in a natural world – a Universe comprising a multitude of phenomena, each of which having its own nature or that which makes it itself and not something else. ... There is no epistemological failure – catastrophic or otherwise – embodied in the above.
Here's the catastrophic epistemological failure: we do not "find ourselves existing in a natural world." How do you know the world you exist in is "natural?" What does that even mean? You begin with epistemological ambiguity full of unexamined assumption. For instance, why would anyone believe that a world full of computable, predictable patterns is "natural" in the first place?William J Murray
July 24, 2022
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WJM, yes, and Haldane made the point on record long ago. Not, that that seems to give pause to those who have been pushing the computation on brain as substrate idea. Computation is simply not reasoning, though it may reflect the reasoning of the designers and programmers. KFkairosfocus
July 24, 2022
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I mean, when you get down to it, any debate where you expect the other person to submit to logic and evidence is a tacit agreement that the supernatural exists. Otherwise, our thoughts, voices and whatever we say are, in principle, the same as leaves rustling in the wind.William J Murray
July 24, 2022
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A denial of free will is opposed to the idea that we make choices based on reason. If we are not free, then something other than reason drives our decisions.
I don't think this is well-said. A denial of free will is opposed to the idea that we CAN make choices based on reason. Most choices are irrational. Seversky's position actually denies that reason/logic even exists as anything more than a kind of bio-chemically produced feeling. IOW, no "objective" logic or reason would exist; it would only exist as whatever any individual feels or thinks of it as according to their biochemistry. To debate using reason/logic as if it is an objective standard other people must or should adhere to is to tacitly admit it is an objective standard immune to individual biochemstry, and to tacitly admit that free will exists that can supernaturally impose that objective standard onto/above individual biochemstries. When a naturalists complains that someone is not listening/submitting to reason and logic, they are tacitly admitting that reason and logic are, in fact, supernatural. Otherwise, you might as well be complaining that the other person has a different hair or eye color than you.William J Murray
July 24, 2022
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Sev, kindly see OP, where the key term, naturalism, is explored. The epistemic catastrophe is the self referential incoherence of scientism, leading into the problems of computationalism vs rational, responsible freedom as Haldane highlighted long since. Those cannot be simply asserted away. KFkairosfocus
July 23, 2022
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Seversky
If there are ghosts or gods or just advanced aliens somewhere out there – however elusive they might be – then they will form part of this overall natural order. On this understanding. there is no “supernatural” just the unknown.
We observe that all things have a cause for their existence and nothing comes into existence by itself as its own cause. You are stating that "nature exists" - therefore, nature came into existence by a cause, and also, nature cannot be the cause of nature. We therefore call the cause of nature "supernature".
There is no epistemological failure – catastrophic or otherwise – embodied in the above.
There is a problem because you're just asserting the existence of things (from a physicalist perspective) as if they are self-existing or need no explanation for their origin. You're asserting that various natures exist - and you'd need physical evidence to support that view. You'd additionally need physical evidence to support whatever cause the origin of those things.
The value of reason is not in question.
Yes, reason operates on a higher order than materialism can. But in any case, your statement requires physical evidence. Where in nature do we observe "the value of reason"? Or even that reason exists? It needs to be reducible to physical matter - something tangible that can be measured and explained in space, dimension, weight, physical location. Where, precisely, is "the value of reason" physically in our universe?
The nature of free will is still a contentious issue in philosophy and, since “ought” cannot be derived from “is”, neither “naturalism”, “materialism’ or “physicalism” have any bearing on morality and ethics.
A denial of free will is opposed to the idea that we make choices based on reason. If we are not free, then something other than reason drives our decisions.Silver Asiatic
July 23, 2022
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It would be helpful if we could agree on what we mean by "naturalism", "materialism" and "physicalism", otherwise we may be talking at cross-purposes. There is obviously a degree of overlap between the three. For example, "physicalism" best describes my position but that name is used interchangeably with "materialism" in current usage so I have no problem with either as long as we understand that. We find ourselves existing in a natural world - a Universe comprising a multitude of phenomena, each of which having its own nature or that which makes it itself and not something else. We try to explain what we observe in terms of what we have previously observed. We try to infer the existence of phenomena we have not yet observed from phenomena we have already observed. By such methods we have built the growing body of scientific knowledge we enjoy today and hope that we can continue to build on it tomorrow and on into the future. If there are ghosts or gods or just advanced aliens somewhere out there - however elusive they might be - then they will form part of this overall natural order. On this understanding. there is no "supernatural" just the unknown. There is no epistemological failure - catastrophic or otherwise - embodied in the above. The value of reason is not in question. The nature of free will is still a contentious issue in philosophy and, since "ought" cannot be derived from "is", neither "naturalism", "materialism' or "physicalism" have any bearing on morality and ethics.Seversky
July 23, 2022
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JH, 8: >>what is equating evolutionary science to ‘evolutionary materialistic scientism’ if not a strawman with dismissive name calling?>> Perhaps, you have forgotten what was let out of the bag by Richard Lewontin:
[Lewontin:] . . . to put a correct [--> Just who here presume to cornering the market on truth and so demand authority to impose?] view of the universe into people's heads
[==> as in, "we" the radically secularist elites have cornered the market on truth, warrant and knowledge, making "our" "consensus" the yardstick of truth . . . where of course "view" is patently short for WORLDVIEW . . . and linked cultural agenda . . . ]
we must first get an incorrect view out [--> as in, if you disagree with "us" of the secularist elite you are wrong, irrational and so dangerous you must be stopped, even at the price of manipulative indoctrination of hoi polloi] . . . the problem is to get them [= hoi polloi] to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world [--> "explanations of the world" is yet another synonym for WORLDVIEWS; the despised "demon[ic]" "supernatural" being of course an index of animus towards ethical theism and particularly the Judaeo-Christian faith tradition], the demons that exist only in their imaginations,
[ --> as in, to think in terms of ethical theism is to be delusional, justifying "our" elitist and establishment-controlling interventions of power to "fix" the widespread mental disease]
and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth
[--> NB: this is a knowledge claim about knowledge and its possible sources, i.e. it is a claim in philosophy not science; it is thus self-refuting]
. . . . To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists [--> "we" are the dominant elites], it is self-evident
[--> actually, science and its knowledge claims are plainly not immediately and necessarily true on pain of absurdity, to one who understands them; this is another logical error, begging the question , confused for real self-evidence; whereby a claim shows itself not just true but true on pain of patent absurdity if one tries to deny it . . . and in fact it is evolutionary materialism that is readily shown to be self-refuting]
that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality [--> = all of reality to the evolutionary materialist], and that, in contrast, the demon-haunted world rests on a set of beliefs and behaviors that fail every reasonable test [--> i.e. an assertion that tellingly reveals a hostile mindset, not a warranted claim] . . . . It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us [= the evo-mat establishment] to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [--> another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [--> i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door . . . [--> irreconcilable hostility to ethical theism, already caricatured as believing delusionally in imaginary demons]. [Lewontin, Billions and billions of Demons, NYRB Jan 1997,cf. here. And, if you imagine this is "quote-mined" I invite you to read the fuller annotated citation here.]
Science and ideological imposition don't mix well. And there is much more there that can be put on the table as needed on the point, it's time to admit to and deal with the problem. KFkairosfocus
July 23, 2022
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CD, things are too serious for turnabout projection games. You know that you were dealing with me specifically and chose to play distractive stunts rather than address a serious issue on merits. Given the penumbra of attack sites, that tells me you have no cogent rely but are desperate not to address the substantial issue. We wait on someone with something substantial; you obviously have nothing cogent to say. KF PS, treat this as a warning.kairosfocus
July 23, 2022
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KF It’s a two way street, your compatriots are not exactly exemplars of good manners and civility…….chuckdarwin
July 23, 2022
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CD, the implication has long been there in too much of what is and has been going on. It is time to restore serious responsible discussion on serious terms. look again at the stunts you and others pulled starting at no 2 above, cheering one another on. Then, fix the problem. KFkairosfocus
July 23, 2022
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KF/9 Who put the bee in your bonnet? I can say with relative certainty that I have never referred to anyone on this blog as "ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked Christofascist fundies and would be theocrats with nothing substantial to say."chuckdarwin
July 23, 2022
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This is all very simple. But I am sure thousands of words will be written anyway. If one considers materialism as just the four forces of physics, then logic (includes mathematics) quickly leads to some unusual conclusions. Namely, that there is something else besides these four basic forces. Those who want materialism to be just the four basic forces and nothing else are denying there exist something else. They are demanding a priori a specific conclusion and as such are committing a basic fallacy of logic, namely “begging the question.” ID tries to identify this something else as an intelligence. This is not begging the question since ID will gladly admit there could be something besides intelligence.jerry
July 23, 2022
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SA, actually, naturalism is baked in as a pseudoconsensus; one with fatal flaws. It has to be exposed. As for identifying oneself, just the opposite, they do identify with it, seeing it as a laudatory term. I am not going off Johnson, as the clips will show. Darwin was actually using the doubt to challenge speculative metaphysics that doubts what he thought of as fully empirically supported evolutionism, not realising or accepting that it was self referential. As for expanding it, that describes what is going on, and scientism in particular is needed to highlight the epistemological failure. Physicalism may be technically more appropriate, but it is a rare term, too rare. And evolution is supposed to be the secret sauce from hydrogen to humans. KFkairosfocus
July 23, 2022
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SA at 14, Lie and deny. Just lie and deny.relatd
July 23, 2022
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KF
Its current usage derives from debates in America in the first half of the last century.
As such, I think it''s a very antiquated term that very few philosophers use now. Philip Johnson used the term "naturalism" in several of his works, but I think he was just searching for a single term as a catch-all and that one works although it risks missing the target since it's not a commonly used term. Most philosophers and scientists do not identify themselves as naturalist.
we can see why it is quite reasonable to speak of “evolutionary materialistic scientism,” as that explicitly summarises a relevant, even dominant, form of naturalism commonly seen on the ground, especially in scientific and policy contexts
In this I wonder if the term "scientism" is redundant in that phrase. Simple "materialism" should mean that all reality is reducible to physical science. Then the term "evolutionary materialism" may also be inverted. You could have theistic evolution or materialist evolution. But I don't know how you could have anything other than "evolutionary materialism" - and that would mean "evolutionary" would be redundant. If correct - then the term "materialism" substitutes for naturalism, scientism and evolutionary-materialism. But the term "materialism" has its problems also. The scientists and philosophers who proclaim that "reality does not exist" will not like the term "materialism" since they believe that has been made incoherent by quantum theory.
First, the scientism is self refuting, self referentially incoherent (and depends on its institutionalised power to get us to lock out other perfectly valid approaches to warrant that substantiates knowledge . . . with, of course, the first duties of reasoning lurking out of the fog).
Scientism, naturalism, materialism and evolutionary-materialism are all self-refuting concepts. They're incoherent and irrational. This fact never registers with materialists, even those who make the greatest effort be consistent with their own nihilistic thought (Alex Rosenberg may be the very best in that category). Clearly, it won't work very well to accept and admit that one's worldview is self-refuting, incoherent and irrational. Darwin bumped into that problem:
But then with me the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man’s mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey’s mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?
He pursued this in the classic materialist method: 1. See the problem 2. Realize that the problem is devastating to one's own claims and worldview 3. Come up with a strategy to avoid the problem 4. Proclaim something that enables you to bluff your way through another day In this case, Darwin saw the problem clearly. He then makes it clear that it's a major obstacle to his own claims and worldview - he does this by referring to it as a "horrid doubt". So, he's terrified. Then, he has to come up with a strategy (he's not going to change his view even though he sees it is clearly wrong). He then implements the strategy. In this case, the strategy is encapsulated in one single character on our keyboard ... the lowly, but almighty question mark. "Would anyone trust ...?" And that's the signal of academic propriety masking intellectual cowardice. Never make a declarative statement, but instead, have your final conclusion simply be an unanswered question. Evolutionists and materialists have been following that methodology ever since (and before Darwin). "Recent discoveries on the evolution of human consciousness open up new questions for researchers". But other materialists take strategies different than Darwin's. The one thing they will not do is deal with the problem. That's for certain. However, instead of just ending their conclusions with the question mark, they may become a bit bolder: 1. "Of course materialism is not self-refuting. I have a perfectly rational mind and I use logic". 2 "That is just silly and insulting. Materialism just means that we don't believe in fairy tales and ghost stories." 3. "Religion is very bad" 4. "Why can't you admit that we just don't know?" 5. "You're always making the same criticism about the self-refuting nature of materialism. What a joke". 6. "Look at all these scientists and academics who accept materialism - and nobody accepts ID". There are dozens more like that. Deny and dodge, turnaround, avoid, feign outrage or being offended, appeal to agnosticism .... None of this changes the fact that materialism is self-refuting. None of it is even the faintest attempt to deal with that problem. it's all just a means of self-protection. Lewontin's famous quote comes closer to the truth: "We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs". But it's still based on cowardice and lying and ignorance. It's not just that materialism leaves us with "mystifying" results or that "some of it's constructs are absurd" or that it goes against common sense. It does all of that, as he says. However, he ignores, dodges, avoids or fails to understand his own worldview - since it's the entire thing that is absurd and self-refuting. But he can't deal with that. None of the materialists can deal with it. We could repeat this a thousand times and they're like a cement wall. Blind faith sustains the illusion, in the face of an obvious contradiction.Silver Asiatic
July 23, 2022
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Jerry at 7, "hold forth"? Again? You can break the cycle. Yes, you.relatd
July 23, 2022
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JH at 4, You're right. Note: Mark down date and time. Quickly followed by 'not right.' Leftists use that tactic.relatd
July 23, 2022
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CD at 2, Thanks for the suggestion :)relatd
July 23, 2022
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PS, as evolutionary materialism is self defeating on cognition, it does not take any proper role in reasoning on any topic, as ex falso quodlibet.kairosfocus
July 23, 2022
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Jerry, as you know, naturalism is a significant issue in its own right and merits a discussion that is substantial. Evolutionary materialistic scientism is derivative and descriptive of a major pattern of naturalism. As for logic, that has long been on the table. The fact of instant resort to strawmen and toxic distractors tells us the balance on the merits; which is not easy to come across as it cuts across a preferred narrative: we are scientific, you are ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked Christofascist fundies and would be theocrats with nothing substantial to say. Confession by projection to the despised other. So, let the record stand. KFkairosfocus
July 23, 2022
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KF: JH & CD, strawman with dismissive namecalling, a sure sign you have little or nothing to answer the merits
And what is equating evolutionary science to ‘evolutionary materialistic scientism’ if not a strawman with dismissive name calling?JHolo
July 23, 2022
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Immediately, two of the resident clowns focus on religion. There is no need for this other than give Kf a hard time because he makes a dichotomy that does not logically have to exist. Kf is trying to set up a long discussion that will be like all the others, go nowhere. A more interesting discussion is to just add logic to materialism. And discuss where that leads. The materialist will not object to logic (and mathematics which is part of logic) Then, maybe some of Kf’s cherished beliefs may fall out. I personally believe they will which is why I push for getting religion out of any discussion of ID. Materialism + logic=> ID. No need for long complicated OPs that no one reads. And it would be much more interesting. But no one here is interested in building a logical argument. This is a place to hold forth with opinions that are not justified.jerry
July 23, 2022
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JH & CD, strawman with dismissive namecalling, a sure sign you have little or nothing to answer the merits. Nihilism can and does arise from the inherent amorality of materialism, as Plato noted in The Laws, Bk X, 2360 years ago, but it is not material to the issues with naturalism that are on the table. KFkairosfocus
July 23, 2022
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How could I forget "nihilistic?" Good catch...chuckdarwin
July 23, 2022
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Chuck, he also forgot ‘nihilistic’. It is always easier to discount something that conflicts with your religious beliefs if you assign a diminutive label to it.JHolo
July 23, 2022
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CD, atheism is not a necessary ideological commitment, though it can be implicit. When pressed on the proper force of the claim to know there is no God, most atheists turn into agnostics. Naturalism, materialism, physicalism, by contrast are well known terms. Meanwhile, have you any warrant for scientism _____ or for evolutionary materialism and/or fellow travellers _____ ? KF PS, though marxism is yet again rising from the dead, in cultural narrative forms [see the Frankfurt School's heirs in critical theory], the concern in the OP is separate from it. Marxism is no silly bogeyman.kairosfocus
July 23, 2022
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