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L&FP, 67: So-called “critical rationalism” and the blunder of denying [defeat-able] warrant for knowledge

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IEP summarises:

“Critical Rationalism” is the name Karl Popper (1902-1994) gave to a modest and self-critical rationalism. He contrasted this view with “uncritical or comprehensive rationalism,” the received justificationist view that only what can be proved by reason and/or experience should be accepted. Popper argued that comprehensive rationalism cannot explain how proof is possible and that it leads to inconsistencies. Critical rationalism today is the project of extending Popper’s approach to all areas of thought and action. In each field the central task of critical rationalism is to replace allegedly justificatory methods with critical ones.

A common summary of this is that it replaces knowledge as justified, true belief, with “knowledge is unjustified untrue unbelief.” That is, we see here the ill advised privileging of hyperskepticism.

The quick answer is to update our understanding, based on how well informed people of common good sense generally use “knowledge.” Knowledge is a term of the people, not some abstruse, rarefied, dubious philosophical notion. And it is a term that is sound,

Namely, and following Plantinga, Gettier and others, knowledge is warranted, credibly true [and reliable] belief, i.e. it includes strong form cases where what is known is absolutely certain, AND a wider, weaker sense where what we claim to know is tested and found reliable, but is open to correction for cause. Newtonian dynamics counted as knowledge before the rise of modern physics and with modification to recognise limitations it still counts as knowledge. This is a paradigm case.

But doesn’t that come down to the same thing as critical rationalism and its focus on what is hard to criticise as what counts for now as “knowledge”?

Not at all.

First, the confident but open to correction spirit of warrant and tested reliability is utterly different from the cramped, distorted thought that naturally flows from the blunder of privileging selective or even global hyperskepticism.

Second, inference to the best explanation and wider observational, inductive approaches — the vast majority of common, day to day knowledge and professional practice — is not put under the chilling effect of dismissive, undue suspicion.

Third, knowledge is accepted as a commonplace phenomenon, not a privilege of the elite few, undermining the subtext of contempt that reeks out of far too much of skeptical discussion.

And if you imagine these considerations are of little weight, that is because you are part of the problem. END

Comments
CR @178
Ori: Time and time again, I have asked CR what criticism is based on, under fallibilism.
CR: And I’ve provided it. Reason. It’s not an infallible source. But it doesn’t need to be.
Cr quotes Deutsch: …what counts is not whether any particular piece of information we get is flawed. Rather, what matters is whether we can correct those flaws. We can do this by comparing different sources and trying to come up with an explanation of the underlying objective reality that explains what all of the sources say.
Suppose there are 4 different fallible sources A,B,C, and D. A and B say “2”, C says “3” and D says “2,53”. Now what? How do we proceed?
Deutsch: They will not all be flawed in the same way …
Consistent with my example, where some sources give different outcomes.
Deutsch: … and so we can try to work out which ones are giving us bad information on any particular issue.
Given that every source is fallible, how does that work?Origenes
April 4, 2023
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@Ori
Time and time again, I have asked CR what criticism is based on, under fallibilism.
And I've provided it. Reason. It's not an infallible source. But it doesn't need to be.
...what counts is not whether any particular piece of information we get is flawed. Rather, what matters is whether we can correct those flaws. We can do this by comparing different sources and trying to come up with an explanation of the underlying objective reality that explains what all of the sources say. They will not all be flawed in the same way and so we can try to work out which ones are giving us bad information on any particular issue. (See “On the Sources of Knowledge and of Ignorance” Section XIII onward in “Conjectures and Refutations” and Chapter 1 of Objective Knowledge).
To quote Deutsch when asked how we can be conformable without a foundation...
When something is true, it doesn’t need to be intrenched. Criticizing it - conceiving that it might be false - actually strengthens one’s understanding of such a truth. If you take an idea on board critically, you will see why you criticisms actually fail. Criticisms failing is what we actually have. That’s what is really possible, unlike authority, infallibilism, or whatever. If you see why the criticisms fail, you can be comfortable, not that it’s true, but that the rival ideas you might have entertained are false. And if they are not false, there will be some reason they are not false, which you don't know yet, which you need find via criticism. Even if you are told perfectly true things - in a way that prevents you from criticizing them, or you’ve given up on criticism - then you every really understand why they are true. Even if they are perfectly true. People can pass an exam in a subject, getting all the questions right, without ever understanding what they are saying. So, when they then come up with a practical situation that’s framed in a different way than an exam can be framed, or what they are accustom to an exam is framed, they do not know how to connect what they learned to say with the actual situation.
critical rationalist
April 4, 2023
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@Ori Apparently, I have to start over.
IOW, any infallibly in a proposed infallible source cannot help us before our fallible human reasoning and problem solving has had its say.
So, it's unclear how whether some source actually is infallible is relevant. This is not to say, there is no truth, but that you only have infallible access to it. Let's criticize that idea, shall we? If the infallible source could help us, what steps would you, a fallible being, need to perform infallibly?
– How could you infallibly identify a supposed infallible source, out of all possible sources? – If you managed that, how could you infallibly interpret that infallible source? – And if you manage that, how could you infallibly determine when to defer to that infallible source?
Now, if I understand you correctly, you seem to be suggesting that your conscious experience is infallible. You think therefore you are. Given the above, there is some truth to that question. But what I'm suggesting is, we lack infallible access to it. Specifically, as I've pointed out, knowledge isn't justified true belief. It's not justified for the lack of good positive reasons (you'd have an infinite regress.) It's not true because it is incomplete and contains errors to some degree. And it's not belief, because it's independent of knowing subjects. Knowledge exists in brains, books and even the genomes of living things.
Truth exists if and only if infallible sources exist. I am the infallible (and only) source of my knowledge that I exist.
I don't think you're quite though this through. Infallibility is a characteristic of sources of ideas. As such, an infallible source would be a source that provides us with completely and utterly true ideas. Ideas are, themselves, either true or false. Truth exists, regardless if there are infallible sources of ideas. The question I keep asking is, how do you have infallible access to that truth? How can any supposed infallibly of a source help us before our fallible human reasoning and problem solving has had its say? For example....
Moreover, if you think you are Napoleon, the person you think must exist because you think, doesn’t exist.
Childish arguments … already been addressed.
First, what's childish about it? That could be applied to any comment. Second, no, it has not been addressed. If you think it has, then you're working with a misconception of fallibilism. See above. Are you denying there is such a think as the subconscious? If not, then how is your conscious experience infallible?critical rationalist
April 4, 2023
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How embarrassingly stupid, Xenophanes claims to certainly know that no one knows anything for certain ….
How embarrassingly stupid, Ori keeps adding "certain" to everyones statements, as if he cannot comprehend fallibilism for more than a few seconds, or isn't in control of his thoughts? If you're the author of your thoughts and actions, how is it that you keep hallucinating a claim of certainty in everyone's statements? Either you're doing it explicitly, which is disingenuous at best, or your subconscious keep adding certainty to your conscious experience, even though it's not actually there and you've been corrected multiple times, because you're interpreting it though the framework of your own epistemology. What else are we supposed to conclude? And your conscious experience is infallible? How can that be when you keep misinterpreting it, even after being corrected? Apparently, It's like the two tables illusion that keeps coming back when you take the rulers away, even after you know they are the same size. Do you not see the illusion? If so, how is your conscious experience infallible?critical rationalist
April 4, 2023
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CR
Again, I’m not a hyperskeptic. That implies there can be no knowledge, but that’s not my position.
So, tell us, according to you, what is that we do know?Origenes
April 3, 2023
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CR, why do you keep pushing us into pre Gettier justificationism? Why you keep trying to salvage justificationism?
Knowledge belongs to the people and cannot be esoteric or vanishingly rare, call that Willardism if you must....
Did I say that people cannot have knowledge? It's not esoteric or vanishingly rare. Where we disagree is what knowledge is and how it grows.
... it is a powerful constraint on hyperskeptical games.
Again, I'm not a hyperskeptic. That implies there can be no knowledge, but that's not my position. You're projecting your problem on me. According your definition of knowledge, there can be no knowledge unless the needle moves to the positive. So, what gives, KF?critical rationalist
April 3, 2023
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CR, why do you keep pushing us into pre Gettier justificationism? Gettier marked a watershed. Warrant is a different approach, at first, whatever it is that enables knowledge, then filled in by considerations and criteria. Knowledge belongs to the people and cannot be esoteric or vanishingly rare, call that Willardism if you must, it is a powerful constraint on hyperskeptical games. On the same ground, it cannot just embrace utter certainty but must be responsible, reliable enough to bet the farm as necessary, where one can know that one does not know. Reasonable and responsible, reliable implies objective warrant that leads to credible truth which must be bet the farm reliable, and of course it is not known if one does not trust it. But, there is also irresponsible denial of warranted but unwelcome truth. So, warranted, credibly true [so, reliable] belief. KFkairosfocus
April 3, 2023
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KF @166
“criticism” is vague.
I agree. Time and time again, I have asked CR what criticism is based on, under fallibilism. At no point did he provide an answer. Criticism that is not based on truth has zero impact.
Logical, factual evaluation towards warrant are specific and tractable.
Indeed and, of course, logic & facts have status, substance, and hardness. They are not to be ignored.
“Hard to criticise” is almost studiously evasive, well warranted i/l/o due analysis and trustworthiness of the result is far more specific. Also, we are back at giving default to hyperskepticism.
Popper's “All knowledge remains conjectural” is indistinguishable from hyper skepticism. Conjecture is not knowledge, so, in fact, it means: “knowledge does not exist.”Origenes
April 3, 2023
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CR
CR: … truth isn’t what you think it is.
Truth is exactly what I think it is. As Kairosfocus said: “truth is what accurately says of what is, that it is; and, of what is not, that it is not.”
To quote Xenophanes…. “But as for certain truth, no man has known it,”
How embarrassingly stupid, Xenophanes claims to certainly know that no one knows anything for certain ….
Napoleon ... (...) .... memory
Childish arguments ... already been addressed.
For example, if logic was an infallible source, then no one would fall a logic test.
You seem to assume that everyone can apply logic perfectly. What is the basis for this assumption?
This is the source of your conclusion regarding A=A, etc. How do you know if you’re interpreted a law of logic correctly?
I am myself. “I” is “I”. A=A. I observe myself, if I would observe another and not myself, I would not have self-awareness. I am self-aware. I cannot be mistaken about that.
At which point, you fallibly have the idea that there is one source of your experience, via criticism.
Sure, I check e.g. if my claims make logical sense. Criticism requires a connection with truth. Your fallibilism does not provide criticism with this status.
And you lack infallible access to “me.”
I do not lack infallible access to myself. And my word is final since I am the one and only authority on this matter.
Ori: Solipsism being true would not change the fact that I exist.
CR: If nothing existed outside your conscious self, then …
If solipsism is true, then something clearly exists outside my conscious self.
Ori: Nonsense argument. Self-awareness is in the here and now and is unrelated to memory; see #155.
Again, I’m not suggesting there would be some self awareness. Rather, you lack infallible access to it.
You don’t understand. You do not have access to my self-awareness. Your opinion about it is necessarily uninformed and of zero importance.
Ori: The important truth here is that I cannot coherently doubt my existence.
But you did.
No, I did not. I tried but failed spectacularly.Origenes
April 3, 2023
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Also, we are back at giving default to hyperskepticism. Knowledge belongs to the people and is common
Note the use of the term "hyperskepticism", which has been corrected multiple times. What gives? This reflects epistemological fear mongering. It's an example of what is meant by "[abhorring] institutions of substantive criticism and error correction." In critical rationalism, It's not that there is no knowledge. See #102. Knowledge exists, not just in the form KF thinks.
Justificationism is what Popper called a “subjectivist” view of truth, in which the question of whether some statement is true is confused with the question of whether it can be justified (established, proven, verified, warranted, made well-founded, made reliable, grounded, supported, legitimated, based on evidence) in some way. [...] By dissolving justificationism itself, the critical rationalist (a proponent of non-justificationism)[8] regards knowledge and rationality, reason and science, as neither foundational nor infallible, but nevertheless does not think we must therefore all be relativists. Knowledge and truth still exist, just not in the way we thought.
Apparently, KF's entire argument comes down to defining words correctly. This discussion will continue to go nowhere because knowledge has been defined as justified, true belief, even if in some weaker attempt at salvaging it in form of warrant, credences, etc.critical rationalist
April 3, 2023
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“criticism” is not the canon of warrant, facts and logic are.
See above regarding logic tests. They are not infallible sources that we have infallible access to. Again, to quote Popper...
The question about the sources of our knowledge . . . has always been asked in the spirit of: ‘What are the best sources of our knowledge—the most reliable ones, those which will not lead us into error, and those to which we can and must turn, in case of doubt, as the last court of appeal?’ I propose to assume, instead, that no such ideal sources exist—no more than ideal rulers—and that all ‘sources’ are liable to lead us into error at times. And I propose to replace, therefore, the question of the sources of our knowledge by the entirely different question: ‘How can we hope to detect and eliminate error?’
Warrant is just a weaker example of infallibilism... To quote Deutsch....
The theory of knowledge is a tightrope that is the only path from A to B, with a long, hard drop for anyone who steps off on one side into “knowledge is impossible, progress is an illusion” or on the other side into “I must be right, or at least probably right.” Indeed, infallibilism and nihilism are twins. Both fail to understand that mistakes are not only inevitable, they are correctable (fallibly). Which is why they both abhor institutions of substantive criticism and error correction, and denigrate rational thought as useless or fraudulent. They both justify the same tyrannies. They both justify each other.
critical rationalist
April 3, 2023
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If I am not in control of my thoughts, I do not control what I think or ‘understand.’ It follows that I am not rational.
You're a practicing fallibilist as I suggested.critical rationalist
April 3, 2023
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You still appear to be confused. These were already addressed. So, it's unclear how you could have infallible access to any supposed infallibly of a hypothetically infallible source. It cannot help you before our fallible human reason and problem solving has had its say. None of your response addresses. Again, it's not that there is no truth. Rather truth isn't what you think it is. To quote Xenophanes....
“But as for certain truth, no man has known it, Nor will he know it; neither of the gods, Nor yet of all things of which I speak. And even if by chance he were to utter The perfect truth, he would himself not know it For all is but a woven web of guesses"
For example, if logic was an infallible source, then no one would fall a logic test. This is the source of your conclusion regarding A=A, etc. How do you know if you're interpreted a law of logic correctly? How do infallibly know the law you interpreted is applicable in this exact situation? What you did was criticize the idea. If it's not my viewpoint, then who's is it? How would they have it, etc? At which point, you fallibly have the idea that there is one source of your experience, via criticism. But, again, nothing in my criticism suggested there is was no one true source. Rather, you would need a way to infallibly identify it from other sources that are not your experience.
The law of identity. A=A. “I”=“I”. I am not someone else. And someone else is not me. My viewpoint is my viewpoint alone.
Great. But how do you know which viewpoint is actually yours. A=A is a tautology. Again, if you think you're Napoleon, then the person you think must exist because you think does not actually exist. If you have false memories, then you don't have infallible access to that viewpoint.
Indeed, because God is not me. And one has to be me to have my unique conscious experience.
Supposedly, God created you out of nothing. So, I don't know how you know this infallibly. After all, God is infinite and works in mysterious ways. I had a theist tell me that everyone is God. He used his omnipotence to compartmentalize / fool himself into thinking he was individual people. So, the "I" you would be referring to would contain errors and be incomplete. Again, sound familiar? (In Christianity, God is supposedly three people in one Godhead. So, in this case, it would be billions of people in one Godhead?)
For any other person goes the same. Another person cannot be me.
And you lack infallible access to "me." A chain is no stronger than its weakest link.
Solipsism being true would not change the fact that I exist.
If nothing existed outside your conscious self, then the "I" you think is you actually contains errors and is incomplete. You lack infallible access to it.
Nonsense argument. Self-awareness is in the here and now and is unrelated to memory; see #155.
Again, I'm not suggesting there would be some self awareness. Rather, you lack infallible access to it. To have access to it requires a step. Apparently, self awareness is magic, atomic process?
I have no problem at all with criticizing claims, that is a perfectly normal part of reasoning since the very beginning, but you didn’t get the point.
Again, you still seem to be confused. I didn't say you "had a problem with it". You are focused on the definitions of words, not the ideas they represent.
That is correct. Although it is more accurate to say that I attempted to criticize it and failed spectacularly
See above. Spectacular failures due to questioning an idea doesn't conflict with falliablism.
The important truth here is that I cannot coherently doubt my existence.
But you did. To say that implies there are currently no good criticisms of your existence. And that is ongoing. To say all criticisms to date have failed doesn't mean some will not succeed in the future. Right? While I don't expect any will succeed, it's unclear how we know this infallibly.
Here we are discussing unique knowledge that immediately turns all my (attempts of) criticism into its confirmation.
It does? How does that work, infallibly? Truth exists if and only if infallible sources exist. I am the infallible (and only) source of my knowledge that I exist. You exist in contrast to who? What does it mean to say I in the absence of some counter factorialcritical rationalist
April 3, 2023
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O, "criticism" is vague. Logical, factual evaluation towards warrant are specific and tractable. "Hard to criticise" is almost studiously evasive, well warranted i/l/o due analysis and trustworthiness of the result is far more specific. Also, we are back at giving default to hyperskepticism. Knowledge belongs to the people and is common. Indeed, dogs know their masters and friends, lizards and tree frogs to my direct experience know that someone is likely to help them rather than a threat when they get trapped in a house. And more. KFkairosfocus
April 3, 2023
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CR ~ More Certain Knowledge~
Ori: Let’s take a concrete example: my certain knowledge that I exist.
CR: A concrete example? As in one of many? It’s unclear how you could actually get anywhere of substance, beyond this, but sure. Let’s. (…) Where are all the other examples?
Thank you for asking, I will proceed with sharing two more items of certain knowledge:
2.) I am in control of my thoughts. 3.) Universal physical determinism is false.
(2.) means that my thoughts & my understanding are not determined by something other than me. This knowledge provides me with certain knowledge (3.) The following ironclad argument shows precisely how these two items of certain knowledge are linked:
1.) If physical determinism is true, then all our actions and thoughts are consequences of events and laws of nature in the remote past before we were born. 2.) We have no control over circumstances that existed in the remote past before we were born, nor do we have any control over the laws of nature. 3.) If A causes B, and we have no control over A, and A is sufficient for B, then we have no control over B. Therefore 4.) If physical determinism is true, then we have no control over our own actions and thoughts.
- - - - - - - - Further argumentation: If I am not in control of my thoughts, I do not control what I think or ‘understand.’ It follows that I am not rational. I reject the possibility that I am not rational & not in control of my thoughts. Why? First, it goes against my experience, I experience myself as rational, as in control of my thoughts. Strictly speaking, my judgment is to be taken as decisive, since I am the one and only authority WRT my inner experience (see #155, 162). Second, if I am not rational, I cannot find the truth. I want to find the truth, I demand the truth. And for this, I have to be rational & in control of my thoughts. For me, this reason is entirely convincing. For me, my desire to find the truth puts me in the driver's seat of rationality and decisively refutes physical determinism.Origenes
April 3, 2023
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KF @163
… “criticism” is not the canon of warrant, facts and logic are.
Arguably one can start with wild conjecture, but the next step should be its confrontation with truth and reality. The latter should be the role of criticism. But if “criticism” is (also) fundamentally fallible, if it is not substantial and factual, and has no connection with truth, how does one create knowledge?
Yes, that which is known to accurately describe entities and states of affairs, and that stuff that starts with distinct identity then draws on non contradiction and excluded middle etc, then goes on to validity and soundness. Then on the other side goes into how evidence can support conclusions.
Exactly.
Whatever is reasonable in vague criteria such as “hard to criticise” turns out to be a very windingly round about way to avoid saying, well warranted.
Exactly. - - - - -
In particular, that one exists as a self aware conscious being is internally undeniable. I doubt my existence but WHO so doubts? Plainly, a going concern me. I may be deluded about other things, but not this.
Each of one’s actions presupposes/confirms one’s existence. Doubting is an action. So, one can only coherently and truly doubt the existence of something that one is not. In an important sense doubting one’s existence is ‘self-defeating.’ The claim “I do not exist” is incoherent, and self-defeating.Origenes
April 3, 2023
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CR, "criticism" is not the canon of warrant, facts and logic are. Yes, that which is known to accurately describe entities and states of affairs, and that stuff that starts with distinct identity then draws on non contradiction and excluded middle etc, then goes on to validity and soundness. Then on the other side goes into how evidence can support conclusions. Whatever is reasonable in vague criteria such as "hard to criticise" turns out to be a very windingly round about way to avoid saying, well warranted. The suspicion then attaches, that the evasions involved are there for ideological reasons, not sound concerns. At no point have you shown valid reason to set aside the understanding that knowledge comes from ordinary language and is a concept that belongs to the people. Yes it can be used in an exacting narrow sense that we know some things to utter certainty. But it also speaks to warranted, credibly true [and so, reliable but for cause revisable] belief. Belief, here meaning, someone has to accept it, on good reason. That is, someone has to be willing to rely on it, for good reason. Above all, hyperskeptical dismissiveness [especially as coming from ideologies, prejudices, biases and contempt for the other] must not be yielded default. Origenes, So long as entities and states of affairs -- reality -- exists, truth is what accurately says of what is, that it is; and, of what is not, that it is not. Aristotle nailed this long ago in Metaphysics, 1011b. From a moral government of reason angle, in correcting the habit of trivial oaths, Jesus of Nazareth said, that our yes should be yes and our no no, whatever is more than that comes from evil. In short, it is those with a deserved reputation for want of truthfulness that now need to say that in THESE circumstances I will not lie. The escalating chain of untrustworthiness becomes obvious. In particular, that one exists as a self aware conscious being is internally undeniable. I doubt my existence but WHO so doubts? Plainly, a going concern me. I may be deluded about other things, but not this. Going on, it is now clear that acid, hyperskeptical doubt, whether global or selective, must not be given default, must not be allowed to dominate over adequate warrant. And that includes attempts to undermine adequacy and warrant. Such cynical intellectual irresponsibility needs to be exposed once and for all. So, clearly, Popper's critical rationalism went too far and needs to be duly deflated. KFkairosfocus
April 3, 2023
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CR @161
Ori: WRT my knowledge “I exist” there is only one source to consider, namely me. I am the only one who knows what “I” refers to. Because I am the only one who has access to my “I”, to my conscious experience. It is impossible for others to have an informed opinion about my conscious experience. I am the one and only expert. The one and only source.
CR: This is loaded with theory. For example, do you have infallible knowledge that there is just one source? If so, how?
The law of identity. A=A. “I”=“I”. I am not someone else. And someone else is not me. My viewpoint is my viewpoint alone.
Also, are you saying that God doesn’t have access to your consciousness experience?
Indeed, because God is not me. And one has to be me to have my unique conscious experience. God cannot be God and me (not God) at the same time.
CR: And, others?
For any other person goes the same. Another person cannot be me.
CR: How do you infallibly know there actually are others?
The existence of others is not required for my infallible knowledge that I exist.
Perhaps solipsism is true and everything and everyone that seems external to you is just a facet of your internal self? So, they just appear separate, when they are actually not. Despite solipsism being a bad explanation, it’s unclear how you can rule it out.
Solipsism being true would not change the fact that I exist.
CR: And as for knowing that “I” exist because I think—note that your knowledge that you think is only a memory of what you did think, a second or so ago, and that can easily be a false memory.
Nonsense argument. Self-awareness is in the here and now and is unrelated to memory; see #155.
Ori: How do I know that I “infallibly” know that I exist? The logic in Descartes’s Cogito (see #155) shows that I cannot doubt its truth.
CR: Again, you still seem to be confused. Falliableism doesn’t say there can be no knowledge. It says that sources are fallible, in that they can lead us into error.
I disagree. I am the source of my knowledge that I exist. And I am the infallible source of that knowledge.
CR: From #150, you conveniently didn’t quote… Moreover, if you think you are Napoleon, the person you think must exist because you think, doesn’t exist.
I explicitly stated that with “I” I refer to “my consciousness, my viewpoint, the origin of my self-aware experience”. This is not to be mistaken for my worldly social identity. I can easily be mistaken about my social identity, but I cannot be wrong about the fact that I exist, which is another matter entirely.
Ori: …. my very act of doubting the truth of *I exist* establishes its truth.
CR: And, there it is!. You didn’t hold it immune from criticism. You doubted it. So, your conclusion didn’t come from that source. This is yet another example of how you’re a practicing fallibilist, and do not realize it.
I have no problem at all with criticizing claims, that is a perfectly normal part of reasoning since the very beginning, but you didn’t get the point. Read #155 again, and this time with understanding.
CR: Furthermore, had you not criticized it, you could not have come to understand why it’s true. Your doubt improved your knowledge of an important truth.
That is correct. Although it is more accurate to say that I attempted to criticize it and failed spectacularly. The important truth here is that I cannot coherently doubt my existence. Doubting my existence is at the same time confirming my existence. IOW it is incoherent. It *cannot* be done.
CR: Knowledge that is held immune from criticism can never improve.
Here we are discussing unique knowledge that immediately turns all my (attempts of) criticism into its confirmation.
CR: Again, it’s not that CR thinks there can be no knowledge. Rather, knowledge and truth exists, just not the way you think it does.
Truth exists if and only if infallible sources exist. I am the infallible (and only) source of my knowledge that I exist.Origenes
April 1, 2023
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@Ori
Let’s take a concrete example: my certain knowledge that I exist.
A concrete example? As in one of many? It's unclear how you could actually get anywhere of substance, beyond this, but sure. Let's.
WRT my knowledge “I exist” there is only one source to consider, namely me. I am the only one who knows what “I” refers to. Because I am the only one who has access to my “I”, to my conscious experience. It is impossible for others to have an informed opinion about my conscious experience. I am the one and only expert. The one and only source.
Sigh. Really? This is loaded with theory. For example, do you have infallible knowledge that there is just one source? If so, how? Your conscious experience? Also, are you saying that God doesn't have access to your consciousness experience? And, others? How do you infallibly know there actually are others? Perhaps solipsism is true and everything and everyone that seems external to you is just a facet of your internal self? So, they just appear separate, when they are actually not. Despite solipsism being a bad explanation, it's unclear how you can rule it out.
And as for knowing that “I” exist because I think—note that your knowledge that you think is only a memory of what you did think, a second or so ago, and that can easily be a false memory.
This is not hypothetical. Our memories are fallible. Our internal witness is fallible just like anyone else. In times of stress, our minds operate differently. We can focus on somethings, but not others, etc. We sometimes reframe or repress memories. And, even if or memories were somehow infallible, we still would still need a way to infallibly interpret our experiences in the first place in context to who "I" actually refers to. 0 / 1, so far, as you smuggled in a number of assumptions you didn't even realize?
How do I know that I “infallibly” know that I exist? The logic in Descartes’s Cogito (see #155) shows that I cannot doubt its truth.
Again, you still seem to be confused. Falliableism doesn't say there can be no knowledge. It says that sources are fallible, in that they can lead us into error. From #150, you conveniently didn't quote...
Moreover, if you think you are Napoleon, the person you think must exist because you think, doesn’t exist.
So, if you think this is a counter example, you still seem to be confused about Falliableism. In fact, you wrote.. my very act of doubting the truth of *I exist* establishes its truth. And, there it is!. You didn't hold it immune from criticism. You doubted it. So, your conclusion didn't come from that source. This is yet another example of how you're a practicing fallibilist, and do not realize it. Furthermore, had you not criticized it, you could not have come to understand why it's true. Your doubt improved your knowledge of an important truth. Knowledge that is held immune from criticism can never improve. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link. Again, it's not that CR thinks there can be no knowledge. Rather, knowledge and truth exists, just not the way you think it does. 0 / 2.
WRT to knowledge about my inner conscious experience, I know that I am the expert to go to. Because I am the one and only expert. The one and only source.
See above. You know? If your memories are false, then you're not the expert on you. The idea that you are makes a number of assumptions. 0 / 3. But, let's ignore all of this, for the sake of argument. Some vague "I" that you lack infallible access to exists in some vague way that you do something in some vague sense. Now what? How can you get to anywhere else from here? Where are all the other examples?critical rationalist
April 1, 2023
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@159
:)You can’t even define “mistake” in your Darwinian worldview.
I do not have a "Darwinian worldview", whatever that's supposed to mean.PyrrhoManiac1
April 1, 2023
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I won’t make that mistake again.
:)You can't even define "mistake" in your Darwinian worldview.Sandy
April 1, 2023
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@151 In response to my point (see 142) about the pragmatics and semantics of the words "certainty" and "knowledge", we have the following response:
Utterly disgusting. Sick.
And here I had thought that Origenes was one of the few people at Uncommon Descent who was sufficiently thoughtful and reasonable to be worth my time to talk with. Well, I won't make that mistake again.PyrrhoManiac1
April 1, 2023
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// Correction #156 //
– If you managed that, how could you infallibly interpret that infallible source?
How do I know that I “infallibly” know that I exist? The logic in Descartes’s Cogito (see post #155) shows that I cannot doubt its truth my very act of doubting the truth of *I exist* establishes its truth.Origenes
April 1, 2023
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CR @140, 149 has some questions for me:
– How could you infallibly identify a supposed infallible source, out of all possible sources? – If you managed that, how could you infallibly interpret that infallible source? – And if you manage that, how could you infallibly determine when to defer to that infallible source?
Let’s take a concrete example: my certain knowledge that I exist.
*I exist*
With “I”, I refer to my consciousness, my viewpoint, the origin of my self-aware experience. Others do not have access to my consciousness, only I do. My viewpoint is exclusively accessible to me. Others can only infer from my activities in the world that I have conscious experience. Others are detached from my conscious experience to the point that it is not incoherent for them to hold that I do not have conscious experience at all.
– How could you infallibly identify a supposed infallible source, out of all possible sources?
WRT my knowledge “I exist” there is only one source to consider, namely me. I am the only one who knows what "I" refers to. Because I am the only one who has access to my “I”, to my conscious experience. It is impossible for others to have an informed opinion about my conscious experience. I am the one and only expert. The one and only source.
– If you managed that, how could you infallibly interpret that infallible source?
How do I know that I “infallibly” know that I exist? The logic in Descartes’s Cogito (see #155) shows that I cannot doubt its truth.
– And if you manage that, how could you infallibly determine when to defer to that infallible source?
WRT to knowledge about my inner conscious experience, I know that I am the expert to go to. Because I am the one and only expert. The one and only source.Origenes
April 1, 2023
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CR, Bornagain
CR: And as for knowing that “I” exist because I think—note that your knowledge that you think is only a memory of what you did think, a second or so ago, and that can easily be a false memory.
BA: So exactly who is this ‘you’ that is supposedly having this false memory of existing CR? ? LOL
Descartes's Cogito argument is poorly understood by many. It shows that one has to really put in some effort and think it through. - - - - - Some comments on CR: Self-awareness presupposes self-observation. It follows that there can only be an "I" who observes itself in the here and now. I am convinced that "think" in "I think, therefore, I exist", should be understood as "doing something." The argument properly understood goes like this:
1.) I do something. 2.) Nothing cannot do something. (Something that does not exist cannot do anything; 'from nothing nothing comes') Therefore, from (1.) and (2.) 3.) I exist.
Note that "do something" can be anything at all. An example: 1.) I doubt my existence. 2.) from nothing nothing comes. 3.) I exist. IOW I have to exist, in order to be able to doubt my existence. Put differently, the brute fact that I doubt my existence presupposes my existence. Everything I do, every breath that I take, proves my existence.Origenes
April 1, 2023
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Of related note to an infallible source of knowledge.
A Mono-Theism Theorem: Gödelian Consistency in the Hierarchy of Inference - Winston Ewert and Robert J. Marks II - June 2014 Abstract: Logic is foundational in the assessment of philosophy and the validation of theology. In 1931 Kurt Gödel derailed Russell and Whitehead’s Principia Mathematica by showing logically that any set of consistent axioms will eventually yield unknowable propositions. Gödel did so by showing that, otherwise, the formal system would be inconsistent. Turing, in the first celebrated application of Gödelian ideas, demonstrated the impossibility of writing a computer program capable of examining another arbitrary program and announcing whether or not that program would halt or run forever. He did so by showing that the existence of a halting program can lead to self-refuting propositions. We propose that, through application of Gödelian reasoning, there can be, at most, one being in the universe omniscient over all other beings. This Supreme Being must by necessity exist or have existed outside of time and space. The conclusion results simply from the requirement of a logical consistency of one being having the ability to answer questions about another. The existence of any question that generates a self refuting response is assumed to invalidate the ability of a being to be all-knowing about the being who was the subject of the question.,,, Conclusion Self-refuting statements are powerful tools to demonstrate the invalidity of flawed propositions. Strange loops that result from such consideration do not exist. By avoiding strange loops in questions proposed by one agent about another, we have argued that there can exist, at most, a single Omniscient Being and that this being must exist by necessity outside of both time and space.,,, http://robertmarks.org/REPRINTS/2014_AMonoTheismTheorem.pdf
bornagain77
April 1, 2023
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@Ori
Utterly disgusting. Sick.
More epistemogical fear mongering.
The theory of knowledge is a tightrope that is the only path from A to B, with a long, hard drop for anyone who steps off on one side into “knowledge is impossible, progress is an illusion” or on the other side into “I must be right, or at least probably right.” Indeed, infallibilism and nihilism are twins. Both fail to understand that mistakes are not only inevitable, they are correctable (fallibly). Which is why they both abhor institutions of substantive criticism and error correction, and denigrate rational thought as useless or fraudulent. They both justify the same tyrannies. They both justify each other.
Still waiting how Ori managed to achieve those three steps.critical rationalist
March 31, 2023
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By golly, Jerry Coyne has a contender for self refuting statement of the century award.,,, Coyne stated,
The Illusion of Free Will - Sam Harris - 2012 Excerpt: "Free will is an illusion so convincing that people simply refuse to believe that we don’t have it.,,," - Jerry Coyne https://samharris.org/the-illusion-of-free-will/
,,, Not to be outdone, CR stated:
"And as for knowing that “I” exist because I think—note that your knowledge that you think is only a memory of what you did think, a second or so ago, and that can easily be a false memory."
So exactly who is this 'you' that is supposedly having this false memory of existing CR? :) LOL Of related note to 'you' even having memories in the first place, Pim Von Lommel, who has done extensive research on Near Death Experiences, noted that, "For decades, extensive research has been done to localize memories inside the brain, so far without success.,,,,"
A Reply to Shermer: Medical Evidence for NDEs (Near Death Experiences) – Pim van Lommel Excerpt: For decades, extensive research has been done to localize memories inside the brain, so far without success.,,,, So we need a functioning brain to receive our consciousness into our waking consciousness. And as soon as the function of brain has been lost, like in clinical death or in brain death, with iso-electricity on the EEG, memories and consciousness do still exist, but the reception ability is lost. People can experience their consciousness outside their body, with the possibility of perception out and above their body, with identity, and with heightened awareness, attention, well-structured thought processes, memories and emotions. And they also can experience their consciousness in a dimension where past, present and future exist at the same moment, without time and space, and can be experienced as soon as attention has been directed to it (life review and preview), and even sometimes they come in contact with the “fields of consciousness” of deceased relatives. And later they can experience their conscious return into their body. https://vdocuments.site/a-reply-to-shermer-medical-evidence-for-ndes-by-pim-van-lommel.html The Mystery of Perception During Near Death Experiences - Pim van Lommel - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avyUsPgIuQ0
Here is a further note to substantiate Lommel's claim
What Neuroscientists Now Know About How Memories Are Born And Die Where, Exactly Are Our Memories? - August 12, 2020 Excerpt: At one time, neuroscientists believed that there must be a “seat” of memory in the brain, something like a room with a door marked Memory. They settled on two structures called hippocampi, on either side of the brain’s base.,,, But memories turned out to have no fixed address. Neuroscientist Matthew Cobb, author of "The Idea of the Brain", tells us, "But the hippocampuses are not the site of memory storage. Rather, these brain regions are the encoders and the routes through which memory formation seems to pass. The memories that are processed by the hippocampuses seem to be distributed across distant regions of the brain." - Matthew Cobb, “where Do Our Memories Live?” At The Scientist (May 1, 2020) ,, Cobb acknowledges, ,,, "Our brains might be like computers in terms of how they sometimes process information, but the way we store and recall our memories is completely different. We are not machines, nor are we like any machine we can currently envisage." - Matthew Cobb, “where Do Our Memories Live?” At The Scientist (May 1, 2020) https://mindmatters.ai/2020/08/what-neuroscientists-now-know-about-how-memories-are-born-and-die/
Brain surgeon Michel Egnor states the irresolvable dilemma for Darwinian materialists as such, "The brain is a physical thing. A memory is a psychological thing. A psychological thing obviously can’t be "stored" in the same way a physical thing can. It’s not clear how the term "store" could even apply to a psychological thing.,,, The fact is that the brain doesn’t store memories, and can’t store memories.,,, The assertion that the brain stores memories is logical nonsense that doesn’t even rise to the level of empirical testability."
Recalling Nana’s Face: Does Your Brain Store Memories? - Michael Egnor - December 8, 2014 Excerpt: The brain is a physical thing. A memory is a psychological thing. A psychological thing obviously can’t be "stored" in the same way a physical thing can. It’s not clear how the term "store" could even apply to a psychological thing.,,, The fact is that the brain doesn’t store memories, and can’t store memories.,,, The assertion that the brain stores memories is logical nonsense that doesn’t even rise to the level of empirical testability. https://evolutionnews.org/2014/12/recalling_nanas/
Thus CR appeal to memories to try to explain the existence of "I", besides being self refuting nonsense, is also of no avail for CR since memories, in and of themselves, like "I", simply refuses to reduced to materialistic explanations. Of related note to memories. Around the 20 minute mark of the following Near Death Experience documentary, the Life Review portion of the Near Death Experience is highlighted, with several testimonies relating how every word, thought, deed, and action, of a person's life (all the 'memories' from a person's life) is gone over in the presence of God:
Near Death Experience Documentary – commonalities of the experience – video https://youtu.be/5uDA4RgHolw?t=1200 Life review A life review is a phenomenon widely reported as occurring during near-death experiences,[1] in which a person rapidly sees much or the totality of their life history. It is often referred to by people having experienced this phenomenon as having their life "flash before their eyes". The life review is discussed in some detail by near-death experience scholars such as Raymond Moody, Kenneth Ring, and Barbara Rommer. A reformatory purpose seems commonly implicit in accounts, though not necessarily for earthly purpose, since return from a near-death experience may reportedly entail individual choice. Experiences number up to eight million in the United States.[2],,,, Subjects frequently describe their experience as panoramic, 3-D or holographic. During a life review, the subject's perception is reported to include not only their own perspective in increased vividness, as if they were reliving a given episode itself, but that of all other parties they interact with at each point being reviewed. The term 3D is employed to approximate the inclusion of different physical perspectives onto a scene; the intensity of a life review was described by one individual as enabling him to count every nearby mosquito; but equally common is the description of feeling the emotional experience of the other parties, including in one case virtually everyone in a room. While some accounts appear to describe scenes as selected, others more commonly narrate the experience as including things they had, probably naturally, long ago entirely forgotten, with "nothing left out". Experiencers commonly describe the intense vividness and detail as making them feel more alive than when normally conscious:,,, - per wikipedia
Verse:
Matthew 12:36-37 “But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”
bornagain77
March 31, 2023
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PM1
Firstly, I deny that there’s anything rightly called “certain knowledge”. There are things of which we are certain, but they cannot count as knowledge for precisely that reason.
Utterly disgusting. Sick.Origenes
March 31, 2023
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Ori: It follows that you do not infallibly know that you exist. In your view, it is possible that you do not exist.
From a previously referenced article....
I must now apologize for trying to trick you earlier: All the ideas that I suggested we might know infallibly are in fact falsehoods. “Two plus two” of course isn’t “four” as you’d discover if you wrote “2+2” in an arithmetic test when asked to add two and two. If we were infallible about matters of pure logic, no one would ever fail a logic test either. Stubbing your toe does not always hurt if you are focused on some overriding priority like rescuing a comrade in battle. And as for knowing that “I” exist because I think—note that your knowledge that you think is only a memory of what you did think, a second or so ago, and that can easily be a false memory. Moreover, if you think you are Napoleon, the person you think must exist because you think, doesn’t exist.
critical rationalist
March 31, 2023
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