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L&FP, 67: So-called “critical rationalism” and the blunder of denying [defeat-able] warrant for knowledge

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IEP summarises:

“Critical Rationalism” is the name Karl Popper (1902-1994) gave to a modest and self-critical rationalism. He contrasted this view with “uncritical or comprehensive rationalism,” the received justificationist view that only what can be proved by reason and/or experience should be accepted. Popper argued that comprehensive rationalism cannot explain how proof is possible and that it leads to inconsistencies. Critical rationalism today is the project of extending Popper’s approach to all areas of thought and action. In each field the central task of critical rationalism is to replace allegedly justificatory methods with critical ones.

A common summary of this is that it replaces knowledge as justified, true belief, with “knowledge is unjustified untrue unbelief.” That is, we see here the ill advised privileging of hyperskepticism.

The quick answer is to update our understanding, based on how well informed people of common good sense generally use “knowledge.” Knowledge is a term of the people, not some abstruse, rarefied, dubious philosophical notion. And it is a term that is sound,

Namely, and following Plantinga, Gettier and others, knowledge is warranted, credibly true [and reliable] belief, i.e. it includes strong form cases where what is known is absolutely certain, AND a wider, weaker sense where what we claim to know is tested and found reliable, but is open to correction for cause. Newtonian dynamics counted as knowledge before the rise of modern physics and with modification to recognise limitations it still counts as knowledge. This is a paradigm case.

But doesn’t that come down to the same thing as critical rationalism and its focus on what is hard to criticise as what counts for now as “knowledge”?

Not at all.

First, the confident but open to correction spirit of warrant and tested reliability is utterly different from the cramped, distorted thought that naturally flows from the blunder of privileging selective or even global hyperskepticism.

Second, inference to the best explanation and wider observational, inductive approaches — the vast majority of common, day to day knowledge and professional practice — is not put under the chilling effect of dismissive, undue suspicion.

Third, knowledge is accepted as a commonplace phenomenon, not a privilege of the elite few, undermining the subtext of contempt that reeks out of far too much of skeptical discussion.

And if you imagine these considerations are of little weight, that is because you are part of the problem. END

Comments
I'd address what appears to be a paradox, but it's already been done. Your short memory seems to be in play again. See this article. But, I will point out, this is a continued misunderstanding. Specially, Even if a source were infallible, you still would need infallible access to it so that infallibility could actually help you in some infallible way. IOW, the argument presented is, any infallibly in a source cannot help you before our fallible human reasoning and problem solving has had its say. Criticism still occurs, regardless of you think a source is infallible or not. It effectively plays the same role. critical rationalist
Sev, fallible sources can be reliable and subject to responsible controls. Where some truths are self evident such as || + ||| --> |||||. As for, I doubt my existence, who is it that doubts, i.e. self aware consciousness, even if otherwise in error, is self evident. The problem is with giving precedence to doubt, if I doubt I dismiss. No, if error is possible, one should be prudent to warrant reliable, credibly true conclusions. There is no incoherence or house of cards in that, as we all know from thousands of years of history; just, we acknowledge the branch on which we sit and refrain from sawing it off -- and the metaphor aptly describes a real situation with first facts, first principles, first duties. Radical or selectively radical doubt is self defeating. KF kairosfocus
Seversky @200
I’m not sure I see the problem. The universal claim that “all sources are fallible” must include itself.
It must include the source of the claim itself. So, some fallible source says: “all sources are fallible.” The claim comes from a source that is able and/or is likely to make mistakes. This means that the claim “all sources are fallible” is likely mistaken and can be safely ignored.
In principle, it could be falsified by finding a source that is infallible.
The problem is more profound. Suppose that all sources are investigated and proven to be fallible, then the source of the claim “all sources are fallible” is proven to be infallible itself. So, it was wrong after all by claiming that no infallible source exists, because it was itself an infallible source. IOW the claim is wrong, even if it is right. We are dealing with self-referential incoherence, as has been pointed out by Kairosfocus.
I could doubt my own existence, which would not conflict with a falliblist position ….
It is even required by fallibilism. We must be able to doubt everything — even that “we must be able to doubt everything” (there is the ugly self-referential incoherence again). Question to you, you say “I could doubt my own existence”, but do you really mean that? Are you able to doubt your existence?. Can you conceive as possibly true that you do not exist?
…. but I would need at least a working definition of what I mean by “I”. Supposing I am an advanced avatar running on some advanced simulation such as in The Matrix what does it mean to say I exist?
I am not sure if I understand your question. Origenes
I'm not sure I see the problem. The universal claim that "all sources are fallible" must include itself. In principle, it could be falsified by finding a source that is infallible. In practice that's not going to be so easy. I could doubt my own existence, which would not conflict with a falliblist position, but I would need at least a working definition of what I mean by "I". Supposing I am an advanced avatar running on some advanced simulation such as in The Matrix what does it mean to say I exist? Seversky
CR
Ori: Do you make a distinction between “attempting to doubt ‘I exist’” and “doubting ‘I exist’”?
CR: You still end up criticizing ‘I exist’.
That’s not correct. Read Descartes — #200. Descartes performs radical doubt. He is able to doubt his memories, his senses, and the existence of an external world. At one point he writes:
I persuade myself that nothing has ever existed of all that my fallacious memory represents to me. I consider that I possess no senses; I imagine that body, figure, extension, movement and place are but the fictions of my mind.
He can doubt all this, and he can doubt the existence of God. But then he arrives at something he cannot doubt, namely his own existence. One thing must undoubtedly be true: “I exist.” In your view, this is doubting and/or criticizing “I exist.” I do not agree. At best it is a failed attempt at doubting and/or criticizing “I exist.” Origenes
CR Fallibilism claims that all sources are fallible. I have stated that the claim “all sources are fallible” is a claim to knowledge. In my view, the claim by fallibilism ** all sources are fallible ** should NOT be understood as “some sources are fallible”, nor as “maybe all sources are fallible.” The claim “all sources are fallible” should be understood as universal and affirmative. It should be understood as certain knowledge about the status of all sources. The same with Xenophanes, who wrote “But as for certain truth, no man has known it, Nor will he know it." It would be wrong to think that Xenophanes says "MAYBE some men will not know certain truth." Instead, he says that no man will ever know certain truth.
CR: Your hallucinated claims of infallibly again. Knowledge is defined as infallible?
OK. Tell me, if the claim “all sources are fallible” is itself to be taken as fallible, what does that mean? Should the claim by Fallibilism be understood as “MAYBE all sources are fallible”? Origenes
“I” refers to consciousness, my self-aware conscious experience.
And the contents of that is what exactly? How can that statement actually help you as a source? You seem to be confusing sources of truths, which you would need to access infallibly, with ideas that are either true or false. Sources imply a chain by which you somehow end up with the infallibility in such a way that you can use it infallibility. Is a chain no stronger than its weakest link?
I do not lack infallible access to “I”. And I am the one and only expert on this.
Yes, you’ve said that already. And you know this infallibly, how? I'm suggesting that's an idea that we currently lack good criticism of. What makes you think we are guaranteed to have conjectured every possible good criticism of this idea? Perhaps you think we have an infallible list of criticisms necessary to find any errors, so if there was an error we would have found it by now? How do we know that has been exhausted? What of the time before Descartes? IOW, your experience is also compatible with fallibilism. Second, if you thought you were Napoleon, you're infallible about that since, you're the expert on yourself? So, in reality, you're whoever you think "I" is? That’s true, even if you think who “I” is would be false. So, you don’t end up with the infallible truth expressed your conscious experience.
Do you make a distinction between “attempting to doubt Y” and “doubting Y”?
You still end up criticizing Y. That’s what I meant by considering a source infallible or not. What follows is effectively the same thing. You seem to be suggesting this distinction somehow retro-causal, as if it's contingent on the outcome. Specially, if you doubting Y failed, then you didn't doubt Y. But if you doubted Y and it succeeded then you doubted Y? Huh? Again, I'd suggest we just have ideas that we lack good criticism of. Otherwise, Y could never improve. You couldn’t compare it to anything else. It would be immune to criticism. Why criticize something that you think is certain? The very process of thinking of ways it could be wrong is to criticize it. The outcome would be, you adopting the idea that has best withstood criticism, right? So, again our “report” of this is compatible with fallibilism. You’ve just interpreted it differently.
This is my personal account of such deliberations, perhaps others can do what I cannot.
Our personal accounts are theory laden. After all, you can change you mind about some personal account. Right? Or are you saying that's something that other can do, which you cannot? We interpret our experiences though the lens of an explanatory framework. When you come up with a better explanation for your experience, what happens? IOW, your experience is compatible with both of those explanations. One survives criticism, but the other does not. Your experience does not stop being compatible with your previous conclusion or change, you adopt the new explanation. Right? Again, I’m suggesting that your experience is compatible with fallibilism. And what about Anosognosia? A woman lost the ability to control her arm after a stroke. She was unable to conceive of having this disability. When asked why her arm wasn’t moving, she claimed it was her daughter’s arm, as she had been with her all week. When asked why her daughter was wearing her wedding ring, she said her daughter borrowed it, etc. This is known as confabulation. When missing information, our minds “make sense” out of our senses. Something similar has been reported with blindness, etc. There is much more here, including people with split brains and even those that do not have brain injuries.
If I were to assume that “I am fallible source WRT anything, including my existence”, it would mean that whatever conclusion I reach may be wrong.
Criticisms are a way to find errors in our ideas. However, “It could be wrong" would be applicable to all ideas. So, how can it be used in a critical way?
Fallibilism applied consistently blocks me completely. Whatever reasons I come up with … I may be wrong.
Yes. that's because your response to things like the Gettier problem is to try and salvage justification, as opposed to give up the quest for justification. It's as if you think you don't have free will. You cannot make any other choice but to try to save justification. IOW, this would be an example of not just a mistaken philosophy of knowledge, but bad philosophy in that it actually prevents you from making progress. You’re completely blocked because of holding that philosophy. As I’ve pointed out, in software development, the ability to make progress given sources that give you different mistaken results is a characteristic of a senior level developer. There is even a specific kind of logic developed for scenarios like this: Paraconsistant Logic.
A standard contemporary logical view has it that, from contradictory premises, anything follows. A logical consequence relation is explosive if according to it any arbitrary conclusion B is entailed by any arbitrary contradiction A , ¬ A (ex contradictione quodlibet (ECQ)). Classical logic, and most standard ‘non-classical’ logics too such as intuitionist logic, are explosive. Inconsistency, according to received wisdom, cannot be coherently reasoned about. Paraconsistent logic challenges this standard view. A logical consequence relation is said to be paraconsistent if it is not explosive. Thus, if a consequence relation is paraconsistent, then even in circumstances where the available information is inconsistent, the consequence relation does not explode into triviality. Thus, paraconsistent logic accommodates inconsistency in a controlled way that treats inconsistent information as potentially informative.
So, I may be wrong when I say “I do not exist” and I may be wrong when I say “I exist.”
I've given examples of this. As a source, you need infallible access to it before any supposed infallibility can help you. You could think you're JFK, or someone else. Or you could think you've been abducted by aliens, had all of your memories replaced, the CIA is beaming thoughts into your head, etc. These people think they are mistaken about their experience. Are they not mistaken about being mistaken, given that they are the authorities on their own experience?
But how can it know that I am a fallible source?
Criticism, like everything else. Is a chain no stronger than its weakest link? Fallibilism has best withstood criticism compared to rivals, like infallibilism. That’s it. Criticism is all we have. But, by all means, feel free to explain how we could have something more.
Criticisms failing is what we actually have. That’s what is really possible, unlike authority, infallibilism, or whatever. If you see why your criticisms fail, you can be comfortable, not that it’s true, but that the rival ideas you might have entertained are false. And if they are not false, there will be some reason they are not false, which you don’t know yet, which you need find via criticism.
Again, your projecting your problem on me.
To say that a source is fallible is a claim to knowledge. A claim to knowledge by some unaccounted-for infallible source, that incoherently denies its own existence.
Your hallucinated claims of infallibly again. Knowledge is defined as infallible? So, this is all semantics? Is everything just about defining words correctly? But, words are shortcuts for ideas. critical rationalist
CR @201
CR: Who is “I” in that conclusion?
“I” refers to consciousness, my self-aware conscious experience.
If you lack infallible access to “I” ….
I do not lack infallible access to “I”. And I am the one and only expert on this.
Ori: So, if I radically doubt everything, one thing is certain after all: **I exist**.
CR: But, you reached that conclusion by doubting that you existed. Right?
Do you make a distinction between “attempting to doubt Y” and “doubting Y”? I do. If I were to say “I doubt my existence”, it would mean that I would consider my non-existence as a real possibility. IOW that, at least during the activity of doubting, my non-existence can be true. However, speaking for myself, I did not manage to doubt my existence, in the sense that my non-existence never entered my mind as a real possibility. This is my personal account of such deliberations, perhaps others can do what I cannot.
CR: IOW, if someone does not attribute infallibility to a source, is what happens next different than someone that does?
If I were to assume that “I am fallible source WRT anything, including my existence”, it would mean that whatever conclusion I reach may be wrong. Fallibilism applied consistently blocks me completely. Whatever reasons I come up with … I may be wrong. Even if I can reason as well as Descartes, I can still be wrong. All the tests that I come up with, may be wrong. So, I may be wrong when I say “I do not exist” and I may be wrong when I say “I exist.” Since I am the only source, I do not see a way forward. However, why should I accept any such assumptions? Why should I accept the claims of fallibilism? It claims that I am a fallible source. But how can it know that I am a fallible source? Where does this flawless knowledge about my fallibility come from? What source underlies fallibilism? Put differently, how can fallibilism infallibly know that I am a fallible source WRT anything, including my existence? What has meticulously judged me, what **Holy Source of Knowledge** veraciously informs me of my fundamental fallibility? These questions unveil the self-referential incoherence of fallibilism. To say that a source is fallible is a claim to knowledge. A claim to knowledge by some unaccounted-for infallible source, that incoherently denies its own existence. Origenes
@Ori Who is "I" in that conclusion? If you lack infallible access to "I", then how can it help you? Now what?
So, if I radically doubt everything, one thing is certain after all: **I exist**.
But, you reached that conclusion by doubting that you existed. Right? IOW, if someone does not attribute infallibility to a source, is what happens next different than someone that does? They effectively take the same path of someone who does. Assuming it's infallible at the start doesn't change what happens next. Right? So, how does assuming that improve things? How does it help you?
critical rationalist
~Descartes Radical Doubt~ (from Meditations II) First Descartes radically doubts all his memories and senses:
I suppose, then, that all the things that I see are false; I persuade myself that nothing has ever existed of all that my fallacious memory represents to me. I consider that I possess no senses; I imagine that body, figure, extension, movement and place are but the fictions of my mind.
Then he asks himself: given that, what can still be considered as true? God?
What, then, can be esteemed as true? Perhaps nothing at all, unless that there is nothing in the world that is certain. But how can I know there is not something different from those things that I have just considered, of which one cannot have the slightest doubt? Is there not some God, or some other being by whatever name we call it, who puts these reflections into my mind?
No, “I” can be the producer of my hallucinations:
That is not necessary, for is it not possible that I am capable of producing them myself? I myself, am I not at least something? But I have already denied that I had senses and body. Yet I hesitate, for what follows from that? Am I so dependent on body and senses that I cannot exist without these?
But if everything is a mere hallucination, can “I” be a hallucination as well?
But I was persuaded that there was nothing in all the world, that there was no heaven, no earth, that there were no minds, nor any bodies: was I not then likewise persuaded that I did not exist?
No, I must exist:
Not at all; of a surety I myself did exist since I persuaded myself of something [or merely because I thought of something].
But can there be a cunning deceiver who tricks me into the false belief that I exist?
But there is some deceiver or other, very powerful and very cunning, who ever employs his ingenuity in deceiving me.
No, I have to exist, in order to be deceived:
Then without doubt I exist also if he deceives me, and let him deceive me as much as he will, he can never cause me to be nothing so long as I think that I am something.
So, if I radically doubt everything, one thing is certain after all: **I exist**.
So that after having reflected well and carefully examined all things, we must come to the definite conclusion that this proposition: I am, I exist, is necessarily true each time that I pronounce it, or that I mentally conceive it.
Origenes
CR, we can see for ourselves, Xenophanes as others since, went a fatal step too far. You by now must know that I have argued that knowledge belongs to the people so must have a weak, defeasible sense as say scientific or medical knowledge etc as well as common daily knowledge are subject to correction, development and replacement. There is a stronger utterly certain sense but relatively, that is rare. Hence, knowledge is warranted [knowable for good objective cause], credibly true [so, reliable enough to bet the farm] belief [actually accepted and trusted]. If all you meant was this there would long since have been agreement, but clearly there is not. Why? The answer on track record is, you advocate a radical, hyperskeptical theory that seeks to undermine warrant and evades why some claims are "hard to criticise," which would be because there is good, adequate, credible, reliable objective basis, which comes in a myriad of forms. KF kairosfocus
CR
CR: To quote Xenophanes…. “But as for certain truth, no man has known it, Nor will he know it …. The perfect truth, he would himself not know it ...”
Kairosfocus, and I, have pointed out the self-referential incoherence in these statements (see #187). But you argue that Xenophanes's text should be understood as purely conjectural.
CR: Actually, nothing KF wrote indicates he understands the problem. First, he too seems to hallucinate certainty in Xenophanes. This is as flawed as assuming that, unless you explicitly indicate certainty, then you must mean fallibly.
So, according to you, Xenophanes meant to write:
“But as for certain truth, *maybe* no man has known it, Nor *perhaps* will he know it; neither of the gods, Nor *perhaps* yet of all things of which I speak. And even if by chance he were to utter The perfect truth, he would *perhaps* himself not know it For all is *maybe* but a woven web of guesses”
So, this is what Xenophanes meant to say? This is fallibilism correctly understood? Fallibilism is just the modest suggestion that knowledge *might* be uncertain? Origenes
@Ori
Nothing you wrote indicates that you understand the issue of self-referential incoherence.
Actually, nothing KF wrote indicates he understands the problem. First, he too seems to hallucinate certainty in Xenophanes. This is as flawed as assuming that, unless you explicitly indicate certainty, then you must mean fallibly. Second, the problem is having infallible access to ideas via sources. Ideas are either true or false. That you assume KF addressed my criticism implies you do not understand the issue of the relevance of infallible sources. Any supposed infallibility in a source cannot help us before our fallible human reasoning and problem solving has had its say. critical rationalist
CR, it remains self-evident, that || + ||| –> |||||, or in usual symbols 2 + 3 = 5. KF
Except, 2+3=5 being not self evident is also comparable with our conscious experience. Take Ori for example. When pressed, he describes being a fallibilist in regards to 2+2=4, or 2+3=5. Apparently one is better than the other, but he can't seem to put into words why. So, apparently, your entire argument is about the correct definitions of words, not the actual ideas behind them. critical rationalist
CR, it remains self-evident, that || + ||| --> |||||, or in usual symbols 2 + 3 = 5. KF kairosfocus
CR @193 Nothing you wrote indicates that you understand the issue of self-referential incoherence. Perhaps you should read Kairosfocus post #187. He explains the matter very well. Origenes
@Ori
Thus Xenophanes’s proposition is not conjectural, but, instead, universal and affirmative. He states that ‘no man has known certain truth’ – which is a claim to knowledge.
You didn't specify "certainty" before your sentence. So, you must mean that proposition conjecturaly? How, self-contradictory and embarrassingly stupid? Do you see how that works? Or, should I say, it doesn't? Certainty or infallibly is an interpretation of what someone wrote previously. Right? For example, anytime we use the word "he" when there is more than one person in the previous sentences, we use multiple contexts to interpret what "he" the author was referring to, etc. This is what it means to interpret something. So, you've infallibly interpreted Xenophanes, how exactly? Apparently, you're incapable of even conceiving of falliablism for more than a few seconds? critical rationalist
@KF Any proposed Infallibly in an supposedly infallible source cannot help us before our fallible human reasoning and problem solving has had it say. Is there something about this you do not understand? After all, you wrote...
2: The capability of logic, including say Arithmetic*, properly done is not undermined by the errors of imperfect reasoners and arithmeticians.
Which completely avoids the issue. If you lack infallible access to logic, arithmetic, etc. then how can any infallibly it might represent help you? Again...
Infallibility is a characteristic of sources of ideas. As such, an infallible source would be a source that provides us with completely and utterly true ideas. Ideas are, themselves, either true or false. Truth exists, regardless if there are infallible sources of ideas. The question I keep asking is, how do you have infallible access to that truth? How can any supposed infallibly of a source help us before our fallible human reasoning and problem solving has had its say?
critical rationalist
@Ori I’d suggest you have mistaken ideas about how knowledge grows. In most cases, this is not harmful. However, I’d suggest you're not merely mistaken. You hold a mistaken idea that reflects bad philosophy. Specifically, it interferes with the ability to make progress, by actively thwarting your ability to make it. For example, if you have concluded something doesn’t work in any meaningful sense of the word, then it would come as no surprise that you would also conclude that we cannot make progress. Because the ability to conjecture how something works for the purpose of criticism. Is no longer available to us. Of course, it’s unclear how you would know this infallibly. You’ve just arbitrarily decided to stop criticizing ideas. No progress can be made. critical rationalist
CR
Does “Make the smallest change you can make to a system that could rule out the biggest piece of the pie [system] as being the cause of an issue.” sound random to you?
It seems that you think that you have knowledge about the cause of the issue that informs your action. This is, under fallibilism, unjustifiable conjecture. Also, I do hope that your unjustifiable conjecture is not based on induction, which Popper calls "a myth." Origenes
So, when you have a car engine problem. You make a random small change to the engine. When it does not fix the engine, one changes it back and makes “the next” small change to the engine.
It's seems that you're still hallucinating words and concepts like "random" in other peoples comments. Does "Make the smallest change you can make to a system that could rule out the biggest piece of the pie [system] as being the cause of an issue." sound random to you? When we try to find an error in a system, we start out with a mental model of what parts it contains, what specific roles those parts play in its overall operation, etc. This takes the form of hard to vary, long chains of explanatory ideas. From this model, we expect the system to work. However, since the system doesn't work as we expect it to, at least one of our assumptions must be wrong. Right? So, the question becomes, where are the errors in our ideas about the system? At which point, we conjecture criticisms that could reveal errors in those ideas. For example, it could be that the documentation for some API is wrong or misleading. Or we misinterpreted the docs. We think it does X when it actually does Y, which could be close to what we want, but not quite Or it could be that it has a bug in that it returns the wrong result all the time, some of the time, etc. Now, despite being a designer, we are finite beings. We have finite resources, deadlines, stakeholders, customers, etc. So, a way to criticize our idea efficiently is to make the smallest change we can make, that would rule out the greatest amount of the system as the problem. How can we rule out as many ideas about the system as being potentially wrong as possible in the shortest amount of time / work. We do this via the explanations and the roles we think play, etc. For example, we may think part X's role in the system is Y, so we should be able to make changes to test our assumption. If it actually plays role Y, then changing r should result in Q, etc. Again, all of this is trying to find our mistaken idea about how the system works. Sometimes it's the case that we picked the wrong variant of some API. We were mistaken as to when to defer to it. It does a similar thing, but it doesn't exactly fit our situation. Sometimes, it just seems to do what you want, because it did every time you looked at the output. But that doesn't mean it will continue to do that with every value you feed it. etc. IOW, it could be an approximation of what you want, but one that is not sufficiently close to what you actually need. Sometimes the API doesn't work correctly when used on a specific platform. You have to use another API or some other strategy all together for each of them . Other times, it works across platforms, but only when you use it in a very specific way, which isn't clearly indicated in the documentation. So, you have to conjecture how the API works under the hood, in reality, even though you cannot see the source code, then try to test your conclusions. This is why it's a good idea to learn older UIKit and AppKit APIs, on Apple platforms, even if you're primarily developing with SwiftUI. This is because, some parts of SwiftUI is implemented using UIKit/AppKit under the hood. I'm actually doing this right now by making a minimally reproducible test project that reflects some part of an actual system. This excludes all of the other parts of the system when there are dependencies that you cannot easily mock, exclude, etc. I could take the time to change the actual system to mock all of the work other parts of the system performs, to rule them out, but that would take an enormous amount of time. Again, we're finite beings. Making a minimal test project is significantly faster. So, it's not just that we want to criticize our ideas. But we want to conjecture criticisms that can potentially give us the biggest bang for the buck, so to speak. IOW, when something is wrong, it’s not just wrong in some generic sense of the word. It’s wrong in a very specific way. The specific way that it’s wrong can conflict with our conjectured ideas about how the system works, under the hood. Does any of this sound random to you? critical rationalist
KF @186, 187 Very well said. This should put a stop to the nonsense called "Fallibilism." Origenes
CR, 167:
To quote Xenophanes…. “But as for certain truth, no man has known it, Nor will he know it [--> is he certain of this, why?]; neither of the gods, Nor yet of all things of which I speak. And even if by chance [--> notice, chance, necessity, art] he were to utter The perfect truth, he would himself not know it [--> so, how does X know?] For all is but a woven web of guesses [--> including this?] For example, if logic was an infallible source, then no one would fall a logic test.
1: Xenophanes repeatedly fails through self-referential incoherence, precisely the issue that has been repeatedly raised. 2: The capability of logic, including say Arithmetic*, properly done is not undermined by the errors of imperfect reasoners and arithmeticians. 3: Logic is capable of warrant, and of both valid and cogent argument. 4: There are self evident first logical truths, including that a thing A is itself, in light of its core characteristics, often summarised A is A. Where, as immediate corollaries, LNC and LOI obtain. 5: Truth, again, is accurate description of reality, involving entities and states of affairs etc. 6: That we know X on adequate warrant does not preclude that we may err on Y. 7: As our hands readily demonstrate, || + ||| --> ||||| is absolute, certain, incorrigible, warranted truth that is knowable, known to be empirically reliable and by logic of being known to hold in any possible world. That we, error prone creatures, do not know all that is knowable simply means we are finite, fallible and necessarily not all knowing. KF * F/N: An Arithmetic, Logic and Shift Unit performs Arithmetic by logic operations, e.g. a half adder uses XOR and OR, etc. kairosfocus
CR, we both know that warrant as developed by Plantinga et al is not justificationism, as you put it. So, you have doubled down on a strawman fallacy. Warrant is about objective access to truth on grounds that point to proper faculties aimed at adequate truth as an evident end and credibly, reliably delivering on it, thus being trustworthy. Adequacy can accommodate pitch vs frequency, differing colour sensitivity [keyed, doubtless, to a G2 class solar system] and the like, such as associated log compression reflected in the Weber Fechner law, giving wide dynamic range, e.g. for sound, note for light we have single photon detection capability. Similarly, it can address self evident truth, validity vs soundness, inductive reasoning based on support leading to cogency, and specifically abductive inference to best explanation. Where, as knowledge belongs to the people, hyperskeptical preferences that lead to denigrating ability of hoi polloi to know, are defeated. KF kairosfocus
CR & Xenophanes
CR: To quote Xenophanes…. “But as for certain truth, no man has known it, Nor will he know it; … ”
Ori: How embarrassingly stupid, Xenophanes claims to certainly know that no one knows anything for certain.
CR: How embarrassingly stupid, Ori keeps adding “certain” to everyones statements, as if he cannot comprehend fallibilism for more than a few seconds ….
WRT to certain truth, Xenophanes claims “no man has known it”. To be clear, he does not say maybe no man has known it”. Thus Xenophanes's proposition is not conjectural, but, instead, universal and affirmative. He states that ‘no man has known certain truth’ - which is a claim to knowledge. The proposition thus asserts what it denies and is self-contradictory and embarrassingly stupid. Origenes
PM1, do not address me ever again. Origenes
@182
So, when you have a car engine problem. You make a random small change to the engine. When it does not fix the engine, one changes it back and makes “the next” small change to the engine.
Absolutely right -- if "conjecture" means whatever you want it mean and not what Critical Rationalist has very carefully specified. I don't know why you want anyone else to actually engage with you. You quite obviously do not take the time to understand what anyone else here is saying. You are wasting everyone's time -- including your own. Which is fine -- it's your life and your time to waste. But for anyone else to respond to you is a waste of their time. As for me, I'd rather spend time talking with people who are fallible and corrigible than with people who think they're infallible when they are really incorrigible. PyrrhoManiac1
Cr:
Another maximum: Make the smallest change you can make to a system that could rule out the biggest piece of the pie as being the cause of an issue. If the issue remains, make the next smallest change, and then the next, etc. This systematically rules out where the issue is not. until you’re left with where the problem must be.
So, when you have a car engine problem. You make a random small change to the engine. When it does not fix the engine, one changes it back and makes "the next" small change to the engine. Really? This can go on forever, without fixing the engine. Origenes
CR:
Again, this is a high-level, senior developer technique used to making progress when most people, apparently like Origenes, would throw up their hands and say “I don’t know how to make progresses.”
Correct. If fallibilism is true and all sources are unreliable, then, indeed, “I don’t know how to make progress". So, why don't you explain it? Origenes
@Ori See #130 Apparent's Ori's data bandwidth is highly capped? So he left out part of the original paragraph? Otherwise, he run out of bandwidth?
We can do this by comparing different sources and trying to come up with an explanation of the underlying objective reality that explains what all of the sources say. They will not all be flawed in the same way and so we can try to work out which ones are giving us bad information on any particular issue.
Note the real world applications I provided earlier.
One solution is to conjecture how the API works, under the hood, to generate its output. From there you can carefully craft various input values, then feed them into the API to attempt to see what values cause the issue, which does not, etc. IOW, this is an attempt to refute that underlying model of how the API works. Again, this is a high-level, senior developer technique used to making progress when most people, apparently like Origenes, would throw up their hands and say “I don’t know how to make progresses.”
Another maximum: Make the smallest change you can make to a system that could rule out the biggest piece of the pie as being the cause of an issue. If the issue remains, make the next smallest change, and then the next, etc. This systematically rules out where the issue is not. until you’re left with where the problem must be. Even if you only get a different wrong result, that tells you something. If you propose that sub system z plays role q in problem x, change z to see if that even makes a difference, even if it’s just to get a different wrong answer. If it doesn’t change in a way that you’d expect, had in actually played role q in reality, then z didn’t play the role you thought it played. These kind of scenarios are common in specific fields. Hopefully, I never have to depend on Origenes in any of these cases to make progress.
Thank Zeus I don't have to work with Ori when trying to debug complex systems. I mean, Ori can't even go back and look for existing answers provided to anticipated questions. How can Ori's conscious experience be infallible, despite having "overlooked" what he was looking for? critical rationalist
CR @178
Ori: Time and time again, I have asked CR what criticism is based on, under fallibilism.
CR: And I’ve provided it. Reason. It’s not an infallible source. But it doesn’t need to be.
Cr quotes Deutsch: …what counts is not whether any particular piece of information we get is flawed. Rather, what matters is whether we can correct those flaws. We can do this by comparing different sources and trying to come up with an explanation of the underlying objective reality that explains what all of the sources say.
Suppose there are 4 different fallible sources A,B,C, and D. A and B say “2”, C says “3” and D says “2,53”. Now what? How do we proceed?
Deutsch: They will not all be flawed in the same way …
Consistent with my example, where some sources give different outcomes.
Deutsch: … and so we can try to work out which ones are giving us bad information on any particular issue.
Given that every source is fallible, how does that work? Origenes
@Ori
Time and time again, I have asked CR what criticism is based on, under fallibilism.
And I've provided it. Reason. It's not an infallible source. But it doesn't need to be.
...what counts is not whether any particular piece of information we get is flawed. Rather, what matters is whether we can correct those flaws. We can do this by comparing different sources and trying to come up with an explanation of the underlying objective reality that explains what all of the sources say. They will not all be flawed in the same way and so we can try to work out which ones are giving us bad information on any particular issue. (See “On the Sources of Knowledge and of Ignorance” Section XIII onward in “Conjectures and Refutations” and Chapter 1 of Objective Knowledge).
To quote Deutsch when asked how we can be conformable without a foundation...
When something is true, it doesn’t need to be intrenched. Criticizing it - conceiving that it might be false - actually strengthens one’s understanding of such a truth. If you take an idea on board critically, you will see why you criticisms actually fail. Criticisms failing is what we actually have. That’s what is really possible, unlike authority, infallibilism, or whatever. If you see why the criticisms fail, you can be comfortable, not that it’s true, but that the rival ideas you might have entertained are false. And if they are not false, there will be some reason they are not false, which you don't know yet, which you need find via criticism. Even if you are told perfectly true things - in a way that prevents you from criticizing them, or you’ve given up on criticism - then you every really understand why they are true. Even if they are perfectly true. People can pass an exam in a subject, getting all the questions right, without ever understanding what they are saying. So, when they then come up with a practical situation that’s framed in a different way than an exam can be framed, or what they are accustom to an exam is framed, they do not know how to connect what they learned to say with the actual situation.
critical rationalist
@Ori Apparently, I have to start over.
IOW, any infallibly in a proposed infallible source cannot help us before our fallible human reasoning and problem solving has had its say.
So, it's unclear how whether some source actually is infallible is relevant. This is not to say, there is no truth, but that you only have infallible access to it. Let's criticize that idea, shall we? If the infallible source could help us, what steps would you, a fallible being, need to perform infallibly?
– How could you infallibly identify a supposed infallible source, out of all possible sources? – If you managed that, how could you infallibly interpret that infallible source? – And if you manage that, how could you infallibly determine when to defer to that infallible source?
Now, if I understand you correctly, you seem to be suggesting that your conscious experience is infallible. You think therefore you are. Given the above, there is some truth to that question. But what I'm suggesting is, we lack infallible access to it. Specifically, as I've pointed out, knowledge isn't justified true belief. It's not justified for the lack of good positive reasons (you'd have an infinite regress.) It's not true because it is incomplete and contains errors to some degree. And it's not belief, because it's independent of knowing subjects. Knowledge exists in brains, books and even the genomes of living things.
Truth exists if and only if infallible sources exist. I am the infallible (and only) source of my knowledge that I exist.
I don't think you're quite though this through. Infallibility is a characteristic of sources of ideas. As such, an infallible source would be a source that provides us with completely and utterly true ideas. Ideas are, themselves, either true or false. Truth exists, regardless if there are infallible sources of ideas. The question I keep asking is, how do you have infallible access to that truth? How can any supposed infallibly of a source help us before our fallible human reasoning and problem solving has had its say? For example....
Moreover, if you think you are Napoleon, the person you think must exist because you think, doesn’t exist.
Childish arguments … already been addressed.
First, what's childish about it? That could be applied to any comment. Second, no, it has not been addressed. If you think it has, then you're working with a misconception of fallibilism. See above. Are you denying there is such a think as the subconscious? If not, then how is your conscious experience infallible? critical rationalist
How embarrassingly stupid, Xenophanes claims to certainly know that no one knows anything for certain ….
How embarrassingly stupid, Ori keeps adding "certain" to everyones statements, as if he cannot comprehend fallibilism for more than a few seconds, or isn't in control of his thoughts? If you're the author of your thoughts and actions, how is it that you keep hallucinating a claim of certainty in everyone's statements? Either you're doing it explicitly, which is disingenuous at best, or your subconscious keep adding certainty to your conscious experience, even though it's not actually there and you've been corrected multiple times, because you're interpreting it though the framework of your own epistemology. What else are we supposed to conclude? And your conscious experience is infallible? How can that be when you keep misinterpreting it, even after being corrected? Apparently, It's like the two tables illusion that keeps coming back when you take the rulers away, even after you know they are the same size. Do you not see the illusion? If so, how is your conscious experience infallible? critical rationalist
CR
Again, I’m not a hyperskeptic. That implies there can be no knowledge, but that’s not my position.
So, tell us, according to you, what is that we do know? Origenes
CR, why do you keep pushing us into pre Gettier justificationism? Why you keep trying to salvage justificationism?
Knowledge belongs to the people and cannot be esoteric or vanishingly rare, call that Willardism if you must....
Did I say that people cannot have knowledge? It's not esoteric or vanishingly rare. Where we disagree is what knowledge is and how it grows.
... it is a powerful constraint on hyperskeptical games.
Again, I'm not a hyperskeptic. That implies there can be no knowledge, but that's not my position. You're projecting your problem on me. According your definition of knowledge, there can be no knowledge unless the needle moves to the positive. So, what gives, KF? critical rationalist
CR, why do you keep pushing us into pre Gettier justificationism? Gettier marked a watershed. Warrant is a different approach, at first, whatever it is that enables knowledge, then filled in by considerations and criteria. Knowledge belongs to the people and cannot be esoteric or vanishingly rare, call that Willardism if you must, it is a powerful constraint on hyperskeptical games. On the same ground, it cannot just embrace utter certainty but must be responsible, reliable enough to bet the farm as necessary, where one can know that one does not know. Reasonable and responsible, reliable implies objective warrant that leads to credible truth which must be bet the farm reliable, and of course it is not known if one does not trust it. But, there is also irresponsible denial of warranted but unwelcome truth. So, warranted, credibly true [so, reliable] belief. KF kairosfocus
KF @166
“criticism” is vague.
I agree. Time and time again, I have asked CR what criticism is based on, under fallibilism. At no point did he provide an answer. Criticism that is not based on truth has zero impact.
Logical, factual evaluation towards warrant are specific and tractable.
Indeed and, of course, logic & facts have status, substance, and hardness. They are not to be ignored.
“Hard to criticise” is almost studiously evasive, well warranted i/l/o due analysis and trustworthiness of the result is far more specific. Also, we are back at giving default to hyperskepticism.
Popper's “All knowledge remains conjectural” is indistinguishable from hyper skepticism. Conjecture is not knowledge, so, in fact, it means: “knowledge does not exist.” Origenes
CR
CR: … truth isn’t what you think it is.
Truth is exactly what I think it is. As Kairosfocus said: “truth is what accurately says of what is, that it is; and, of what is not, that it is not.”
To quote Xenophanes…. “But as for certain truth, no man has known it,”
How embarrassingly stupid, Xenophanes claims to certainly know that no one knows anything for certain ….
Napoleon ... (...) .... memory
Childish arguments ... already been addressed.
For example, if logic was an infallible source, then no one would fall a logic test.
You seem to assume that everyone can apply logic perfectly. What is the basis for this assumption?
This is the source of your conclusion regarding A=A, etc. How do you know if you’re interpreted a law of logic correctly?
I am myself. “I” is “I”. A=A. I observe myself, if I would observe another and not myself, I would not have self-awareness. I am self-aware. I cannot be mistaken about that.
At which point, you fallibly have the idea that there is one source of your experience, via criticism.
Sure, I check e.g. if my claims make logical sense. Criticism requires a connection with truth. Your fallibilism does not provide criticism with this status.
And you lack infallible access to “me.”
I do not lack infallible access to myself. And my word is final since I am the one and only authority on this matter.
Ori: Solipsism being true would not change the fact that I exist.
CR: If nothing existed outside your conscious self, then …
If solipsism is true, then something clearly exists outside my conscious self.
Ori: Nonsense argument. Self-awareness is in the here and now and is unrelated to memory; see #155.
Again, I’m not suggesting there would be some self awareness. Rather, you lack infallible access to it.
You don’t understand. You do not have access to my self-awareness. Your opinion about it is necessarily uninformed and of zero importance.
Ori: The important truth here is that I cannot coherently doubt my existence.
But you did.
No, I did not. I tried but failed spectacularly. Origenes
Also, we are back at giving default to hyperskepticism. Knowledge belongs to the people and is common
Note the use of the term "hyperskepticism", which has been corrected multiple times. What gives? This reflects epistemological fear mongering. It's an example of what is meant by "[abhorring] institutions of substantive criticism and error correction." In critical rationalism, It's not that there is no knowledge. See #102. Knowledge exists, not just in the form KF thinks.
Justificationism is what Popper called a “subjectivist” view of truth, in which the question of whether some statement is true is confused with the question of whether it can be justified (established, proven, verified, warranted, made well-founded, made reliable, grounded, supported, legitimated, based on evidence) in some way. [...] By dissolving justificationism itself, the critical rationalist (a proponent of non-justificationism)[8] regards knowledge and rationality, reason and science, as neither foundational nor infallible, but nevertheless does not think we must therefore all be relativists. Knowledge and truth still exist, just not in the way we thought.
Apparently, KF's entire argument comes down to defining words correctly. This discussion will continue to go nowhere because knowledge has been defined as justified, true belief, even if in some weaker attempt at salvaging it in form of warrant, credences, etc. critical rationalist
“criticism” is not the canon of warrant, facts and logic are.
See above regarding logic tests. They are not infallible sources that we have infallible access to. Again, to quote Popper...
The question about the sources of our knowledge . . . has always been asked in the spirit of: ‘What are the best sources of our knowledge—the most reliable ones, those which will not lead us into error, and those to which we can and must turn, in case of doubt, as the last court of appeal?’ I propose to assume, instead, that no such ideal sources exist—no more than ideal rulers—and that all ‘sources’ are liable to lead us into error at times. And I propose to replace, therefore, the question of the sources of our knowledge by the entirely different question: ‘How can we hope to detect and eliminate error?’
Warrant is just a weaker example of infallibilism... To quote Deutsch....
The theory of knowledge is a tightrope that is the only path from A to B, with a long, hard drop for anyone who steps off on one side into “knowledge is impossible, progress is an illusion” or on the other side into “I must be right, or at least probably right.” Indeed, infallibilism and nihilism are twins. Both fail to understand that mistakes are not only inevitable, they are correctable (fallibly). Which is why they both abhor institutions of substantive criticism and error correction, and denigrate rational thought as useless or fraudulent. They both justify the same tyrannies. They both justify each other.
critical rationalist
If I am not in control of my thoughts, I do not control what I think or ‘understand.’ It follows that I am not rational.
You're a practicing fallibilist as I suggested. critical rationalist
You still appear to be confused. These were already addressed. So, it's unclear how you could have infallible access to any supposed infallibly of a hypothetically infallible source. It cannot help you before our fallible human reason and problem solving has had its say. None of your response addresses. Again, it's not that there is no truth. Rather truth isn't what you think it is. To quote Xenophanes....
“But as for certain truth, no man has known it, Nor will he know it; neither of the gods, Nor yet of all things of which I speak. And even if by chance he were to utter The perfect truth, he would himself not know it For all is but a woven web of guesses"
For example, if logic was an infallible source, then no one would fall a logic test. This is the source of your conclusion regarding A=A, etc. How do you know if you're interpreted a law of logic correctly? How do infallibly know the law you interpreted is applicable in this exact situation? What you did was criticize the idea. If it's not my viewpoint, then who's is it? How would they have it, etc? At which point, you fallibly have the idea that there is one source of your experience, via criticism. But, again, nothing in my criticism suggested there is was no one true source. Rather, you would need a way to infallibly identify it from other sources that are not your experience.
The law of identity. A=A. “I”=“I”. I am not someone else. And someone else is not me. My viewpoint is my viewpoint alone.
Great. But how do you know which viewpoint is actually yours. A=A is a tautology. Again, if you think you're Napoleon, then the person you think must exist because you think does not actually exist. If you have false memories, then you don't have infallible access to that viewpoint.
Indeed, because God is not me. And one has to be me to have my unique conscious experience.
Supposedly, God created you out of nothing. So, I don't know how you know this infallibly. After all, God is infinite and works in mysterious ways. I had a theist tell me that everyone is God. He used his omnipotence to compartmentalize / fool himself into thinking he was individual people. So, the "I" you would be referring to would contain errors and be incomplete. Again, sound familiar? (In Christianity, God is supposedly three people in one Godhead. So, in this case, it would be billions of people in one Godhead?)
For any other person goes the same. Another person cannot be me.
And you lack infallible access to "me." A chain is no stronger than its weakest link.
Solipsism being true would not change the fact that I exist.
If nothing existed outside your conscious self, then the "I" you think is you actually contains errors and is incomplete. You lack infallible access to it.
Nonsense argument. Self-awareness is in the here and now and is unrelated to memory; see #155.
Again, I'm not suggesting there would be some self awareness. Rather, you lack infallible access to it. To have access to it requires a step. Apparently, self awareness is magic, atomic process?
I have no problem at all with criticizing claims, that is a perfectly normal part of reasoning since the very beginning, but you didn’t get the point.
Again, you still seem to be confused. I didn't say you "had a problem with it". You are focused on the definitions of words, not the ideas they represent.
That is correct. Although it is more accurate to say that I attempted to criticize it and failed spectacularly
See above. Spectacular failures due to questioning an idea doesn't conflict with falliablism.
The important truth here is that I cannot coherently doubt my existence.
But you did. To say that implies there are currently no good criticisms of your existence. And that is ongoing. To say all criticisms to date have failed doesn't mean some will not succeed in the future. Right? While I don't expect any will succeed, it's unclear how we know this infallibly.
Here we are discussing unique knowledge that immediately turns all my (attempts of) criticism into its confirmation.
It does? How does that work, infallibly? Truth exists if and only if infallible sources exist. I am the infallible (and only) source of my knowledge that I exist. You exist in contrast to who? What does it mean to say I in the absence of some counter factorial critical rationalist
O, "criticism" is vague. Logical, factual evaluation towards warrant are specific and tractable. "Hard to criticise" is almost studiously evasive, well warranted i/l/o due analysis and trustworthiness of the result is far more specific. Also, we are back at giving default to hyperskepticism. Knowledge belongs to the people and is common. Indeed, dogs know their masters and friends, lizards and tree frogs to my direct experience know that someone is likely to help them rather than a threat when they get trapped in a house. And more. KF kairosfocus
CR ~ More Certain Knowledge~
Ori: Let’s take a concrete example: my certain knowledge that I exist.
CR: A concrete example? As in one of many? It’s unclear how you could actually get anywhere of substance, beyond this, but sure. Let’s. (…) Where are all the other examples?
Thank you for asking, I will proceed with sharing two more items of certain knowledge:
2.) I am in control of my thoughts. 3.) Universal physical determinism is false.
(2.) means that my thoughts & my understanding are not determined by something other than me. This knowledge provides me with certain knowledge (3.) The following ironclad argument shows precisely how these two items of certain knowledge are linked:
1.) If physical determinism is true, then all our actions and thoughts are consequences of events and laws of nature in the remote past before we were born. 2.) We have no control over circumstances that existed in the remote past before we were born, nor do we have any control over the laws of nature. 3.) If A causes B, and we have no control over A, and A is sufficient for B, then we have no control over B. Therefore 4.) If physical determinism is true, then we have no control over our own actions and thoughts.
- - - - - - - - Further argumentation: If I am not in control of my thoughts, I do not control what I think or ‘understand.’ It follows that I am not rational. I reject the possibility that I am not rational & not in control of my thoughts. Why? First, it goes against my experience, I experience myself as rational, as in control of my thoughts. Strictly speaking, my judgment is to be taken as decisive, since I am the one and only authority WRT my inner experience (see #155, 162). Second, if I am not rational, I cannot find the truth. I want to find the truth, I demand the truth. And for this, I have to be rational & in control of my thoughts. For me, this reason is entirely convincing. For me, my desire to find the truth puts me in the driver's seat of rationality and decisively refutes physical determinism. Origenes
KF @163
… “criticism” is not the canon of warrant, facts and logic are.
Arguably one can start with wild conjecture, but the next step should be its confrontation with truth and reality. The latter should be the role of criticism. But if “criticism” is (also) fundamentally fallible, if it is not substantial and factual, and has no connection with truth, how does one create knowledge?
Yes, that which is known to accurately describe entities and states of affairs, and that stuff that starts with distinct identity then draws on non contradiction and excluded middle etc, then goes on to validity and soundness. Then on the other side goes into how evidence can support conclusions.
Exactly.
Whatever is reasonable in vague criteria such as “hard to criticise” turns out to be a very windingly round about way to avoid saying, well warranted.
Exactly. - - - - -
In particular, that one exists as a self aware conscious being is internally undeniable. I doubt my existence but WHO so doubts? Plainly, a going concern me. I may be deluded about other things, but not this.
Each of one’s actions presupposes/confirms one’s existence. Doubting is an action. So, one can only coherently and truly doubt the existence of something that one is not. In an important sense doubting one’s existence is ‘self-defeating.’ The claim “I do not exist” is incoherent, and self-defeating. Origenes
CR, "criticism" is not the canon of warrant, facts and logic are. Yes, that which is known to accurately describe entities and states of affairs, and that stuff that starts with distinct identity then draws on non contradiction and excluded middle etc, then goes on to validity and soundness. Then on the other side goes into how evidence can support conclusions. Whatever is reasonable in vague criteria such as "hard to criticise" turns out to be a very windingly round about way to avoid saying, well warranted. The suspicion then attaches, that the evasions involved are there for ideological reasons, not sound concerns. At no point have you shown valid reason to set aside the understanding that knowledge comes from ordinary language and is a concept that belongs to the people. Yes it can be used in an exacting narrow sense that we know some things to utter certainty. But it also speaks to warranted, credibly true [and so, reliable but for cause revisable] belief. Belief, here meaning, someone has to accept it, on good reason. That is, someone has to be willing to rely on it, for good reason. Above all, hyperskeptical dismissiveness [especially as coming from ideologies, prejudices, biases and contempt for the other] must not be yielded default. Origenes, So long as entities and states of affairs -- reality -- exists, truth is what accurately says of what is, that it is; and, of what is not, that it is not. Aristotle nailed this long ago in Metaphysics, 1011b. From a moral government of reason angle, in correcting the habit of trivial oaths, Jesus of Nazareth said, that our yes should be yes and our no no, whatever is more than that comes from evil. In short, it is those with a deserved reputation for want of truthfulness that now need to say that in THESE circumstances I will not lie. The escalating chain of untrustworthiness becomes obvious. In particular, that one exists as a self aware conscious being is internally undeniable. I doubt my existence but WHO so doubts? Plainly, a going concern me. I may be deluded about other things, but not this. Going on, it is now clear that acid, hyperskeptical doubt, whether global or selective, must not be given default, must not be allowed to dominate over adequate warrant. And that includes attempts to undermine adequacy and warrant. Such cynical intellectual irresponsibility needs to be exposed once and for all. So, clearly, Popper's critical rationalism went too far and needs to be duly deflated. KF kairosfocus
CR @161
Ori: WRT my knowledge “I exist” there is only one source to consider, namely me. I am the only one who knows what “I” refers to. Because I am the only one who has access to my “I”, to my conscious experience. It is impossible for others to have an informed opinion about my conscious experience. I am the one and only expert. The one and only source.
CR: This is loaded with theory. For example, do you have infallible knowledge that there is just one source? If so, how?
The law of identity. A=A. “I”=“I”. I am not someone else. And someone else is not me. My viewpoint is my viewpoint alone.
Also, are you saying that God doesn’t have access to your consciousness experience?
Indeed, because God is not me. And one has to be me to have my unique conscious experience. God cannot be God and me (not God) at the same time.
CR: And, others?
For any other person goes the same. Another person cannot be me.
CR: How do you infallibly know there actually are others?
The existence of others is not required for my infallible knowledge that I exist.
Perhaps solipsism is true and everything and everyone that seems external to you is just a facet of your internal self? So, they just appear separate, when they are actually not. Despite solipsism being a bad explanation, it’s unclear how you can rule it out.
Solipsism being true would not change the fact that I exist.
CR: And as for knowing that “I” exist because I think—note that your knowledge that you think is only a memory of what you did think, a second or so ago, and that can easily be a false memory.
Nonsense argument. Self-awareness is in the here and now and is unrelated to memory; see #155.
Ori: How do I know that I “infallibly” know that I exist? The logic in Descartes’s Cogito (see #155) shows that I cannot doubt its truth.
CR: Again, you still seem to be confused. Falliableism doesn’t say there can be no knowledge. It says that sources are fallible, in that they can lead us into error.
I disagree. I am the source of my knowledge that I exist. And I am the infallible source of that knowledge.
CR: From #150, you conveniently didn’t quote… Moreover, if you think you are Napoleon, the person you think must exist because you think, doesn’t exist.
I explicitly stated that with “I” I refer to “my consciousness, my viewpoint, the origin of my self-aware experience”. This is not to be mistaken for my worldly social identity. I can easily be mistaken about my social identity, but I cannot be wrong about the fact that I exist, which is another matter entirely.
Ori: …. my very act of doubting the truth of *I exist* establishes its truth.
CR: And, there it is!. You didn’t hold it immune from criticism. You doubted it. So, your conclusion didn’t come from that source. This is yet another example of how you’re a practicing fallibilist, and do not realize it.
I have no problem at all with criticizing claims, that is a perfectly normal part of reasoning since the very beginning, but you didn’t get the point. Read #155 again, and this time with understanding.
CR: Furthermore, had you not criticized it, you could not have come to understand why it’s true. Your doubt improved your knowledge of an important truth.
That is correct. Although it is more accurate to say that I attempted to criticize it and failed spectacularly. The important truth here is that I cannot coherently doubt my existence. Doubting my existence is at the same time confirming my existence. IOW it is incoherent. It *cannot* be done.
CR: Knowledge that is held immune from criticism can never improve.
Here we are discussing unique knowledge that immediately turns all my (attempts of) criticism into its confirmation.
CR: Again, it’s not that CR thinks there can be no knowledge. Rather, knowledge and truth exists, just not the way you think it does.
Truth exists if and only if infallible sources exist. I am the infallible (and only) source of my knowledge that I exist. Origenes
@Ori
Let’s take a concrete example: my certain knowledge that I exist.
A concrete example? As in one of many? It's unclear how you could actually get anywhere of substance, beyond this, but sure. Let's.
WRT my knowledge “I exist” there is only one source to consider, namely me. I am the only one who knows what “I” refers to. Because I am the only one who has access to my “I”, to my conscious experience. It is impossible for others to have an informed opinion about my conscious experience. I am the one and only expert. The one and only source.
Sigh. Really? This is loaded with theory. For example, do you have infallible knowledge that there is just one source? If so, how? Your conscious experience? Also, are you saying that God doesn't have access to your consciousness experience? And, others? How do you infallibly know there actually are others? Perhaps solipsism is true and everything and everyone that seems external to you is just a facet of your internal self? So, they just appear separate, when they are actually not. Despite solipsism being a bad explanation, it's unclear how you can rule it out.
And as for knowing that “I” exist because I think—note that your knowledge that you think is only a memory of what you did think, a second or so ago, and that can easily be a false memory.
This is not hypothetical. Our memories are fallible. Our internal witness is fallible just like anyone else. In times of stress, our minds operate differently. We can focus on somethings, but not others, etc. We sometimes reframe or repress memories. And, even if or memories were somehow infallible, we still would still need a way to infallibly interpret our experiences in the first place in context to who "I" actually refers to. 0 / 1, so far, as you smuggled in a number of assumptions you didn't even realize?
How do I know that I “infallibly” know that I exist? The logic in Descartes’s Cogito (see #155) shows that I cannot doubt its truth.
Again, you still seem to be confused. Falliableism doesn't say there can be no knowledge. It says that sources are fallible, in that they can lead us into error. From #150, you conveniently didn't quote...
Moreover, if you think you are Napoleon, the person you think must exist because you think, doesn’t exist.
So, if you think this is a counter example, you still seem to be confused about Falliableism. In fact, you wrote.. my very act of doubting the truth of *I exist* establishes its truth. And, there it is!. You didn't hold it immune from criticism. You doubted it. So, your conclusion didn't come from that source. This is yet another example of how you're a practicing fallibilist, and do not realize it. Furthermore, had you not criticized it, you could not have come to understand why it's true. Your doubt improved your knowledge of an important truth. Knowledge that is held immune from criticism can never improve. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link. Again, it's not that CR thinks there can be no knowledge. Rather, knowledge and truth exists, just not the way you think it does. 0 / 2.
WRT to knowledge about my inner conscious experience, I know that I am the expert to go to. Because I am the one and only expert. The one and only source.
See above. You know? If your memories are false, then you're not the expert on you. The idea that you are makes a number of assumptions. 0 / 3. But, let's ignore all of this, for the sake of argument. Some vague "I" that you lack infallible access to exists in some vague way that you do something in some vague sense. Now what? How can you get to anywhere else from here? Where are all the other examples? critical rationalist
@159
:)You can’t even define “mistake” in your Darwinian worldview.
I do not have a "Darwinian worldview", whatever that's supposed to mean. PyrrhoManiac1
I won’t make that mistake again.
:)You can't even define "mistake" in your Darwinian worldview. Sandy
@151 In response to my point (see 142) about the pragmatics and semantics of the words "certainty" and "knowledge", we have the following response:
Utterly disgusting. Sick.
And here I had thought that Origenes was one of the few people at Uncommon Descent who was sufficiently thoughtful and reasonable to be worth my time to talk with. Well, I won't make that mistake again. PyrrhoManiac1
// Correction #156 //
– If you managed that, how could you infallibly interpret that infallible source?
How do I know that I “infallibly” know that I exist? The logic in Descartes’s Cogito (see post #155) shows that I cannot doubt its truth my very act of doubting the truth of *I exist* establishes its truth. Origenes
CR @140, 149 has some questions for me:
– How could you infallibly identify a supposed infallible source, out of all possible sources? – If you managed that, how could you infallibly interpret that infallible source? – And if you manage that, how could you infallibly determine when to defer to that infallible source?
Let’s take a concrete example: my certain knowledge that I exist.
*I exist*
With “I”, I refer to my consciousness, my viewpoint, the origin of my self-aware experience. Others do not have access to my consciousness, only I do. My viewpoint is exclusively accessible to me. Others can only infer from my activities in the world that I have conscious experience. Others are detached from my conscious experience to the point that it is not incoherent for them to hold that I do not have conscious experience at all.
– How could you infallibly identify a supposed infallible source, out of all possible sources?
WRT my knowledge “I exist” there is only one source to consider, namely me. I am the only one who knows what "I" refers to. Because I am the only one who has access to my “I”, to my conscious experience. It is impossible for others to have an informed opinion about my conscious experience. I am the one and only expert. The one and only source.
– If you managed that, how could you infallibly interpret that infallible source?
How do I know that I “infallibly” know that I exist? The logic in Descartes’s Cogito (see #155) shows that I cannot doubt its truth.
– And if you manage that, how could you infallibly determine when to defer to that infallible source?
WRT to knowledge about my inner conscious experience, I know that I am the expert to go to. Because I am the one and only expert. The one and only source. Origenes
CR, Bornagain
CR: And as for knowing that “I” exist because I think—note that your knowledge that you think is only a memory of what you did think, a second or so ago, and that can easily be a false memory.
BA: So exactly who is this ‘you’ that is supposedly having this false memory of existing CR? ? LOL
Descartes's Cogito argument is poorly understood by many. It shows that one has to really put in some effort and think it through. - - - - - Some comments on CR: Self-awareness presupposes self-observation. It follows that there can only be an "I" who observes itself in the here and now. I am convinced that "think" in "I think, therefore, I exist", should be understood as "doing something." The argument properly understood goes like this:
1.) I do something. 2.) Nothing cannot do something. (Something that does not exist cannot do anything; 'from nothing nothing comes') Therefore, from (1.) and (2.) 3.) I exist.
Note that "do something" can be anything at all. An example: 1.) I doubt my existence. 2.) from nothing nothing comes. 3.) I exist. IOW I have to exist, in order to be able to doubt my existence. Put differently, the brute fact that I doubt my existence presupposes my existence. Everything I do, every breath that I take, proves my existence. Origenes
Of related note to an infallible source of knowledge.
A Mono-Theism Theorem: Gödelian Consistency in the Hierarchy of Inference - Winston Ewert and Robert J. Marks II - June 2014 Abstract: Logic is foundational in the assessment of philosophy and the validation of theology. In 1931 Kurt Gödel derailed Russell and Whitehead’s Principia Mathematica by showing logically that any set of consistent axioms will eventually yield unknowable propositions. Gödel did so by showing that, otherwise, the formal system would be inconsistent. Turing, in the first celebrated application of Gödelian ideas, demonstrated the impossibility of writing a computer program capable of examining another arbitrary program and announcing whether or not that program would halt or run forever. He did so by showing that the existence of a halting program can lead to self-refuting propositions. We propose that, through application of Gödelian reasoning, there can be, at most, one being in the universe omniscient over all other beings. This Supreme Being must by necessity exist or have existed outside of time and space. The conclusion results simply from the requirement of a logical consistency of one being having the ability to answer questions about another. The existence of any question that generates a self refuting response is assumed to invalidate the ability of a being to be all-knowing about the being who was the subject of the question.,,, Conclusion Self-refuting statements are powerful tools to demonstrate the invalidity of flawed propositions. Strange loops that result from such consideration do not exist. By avoiding strange loops in questions proposed by one agent about another, we have argued that there can exist, at most, a single Omniscient Being and that this being must exist by necessity outside of both time and space.,,, http://robertmarks.org/REPRINTS/2014_AMonoTheismTheorem.pdf
bornagain77
@Ori
Utterly disgusting. Sick.
More epistemogical fear mongering.
The theory of knowledge is a tightrope that is the only path from A to B, with a long, hard drop for anyone who steps off on one side into “knowledge is impossible, progress is an illusion” or on the other side into “I must be right, or at least probably right.” Indeed, infallibilism and nihilism are twins. Both fail to understand that mistakes are not only inevitable, they are correctable (fallibly). Which is why they both abhor institutions of substantive criticism and error correction, and denigrate rational thought as useless or fraudulent. They both justify the same tyrannies. They both justify each other.
Still waiting how Ori managed to achieve those three steps. critical rationalist
By golly, Jerry Coyne has a contender for self refuting statement of the century award.,,, Coyne stated,
The Illusion of Free Will - Sam Harris - 2012 Excerpt: "Free will is an illusion so convincing that people simply refuse to believe that we don’t have it.,,," - Jerry Coyne https://samharris.org/the-illusion-of-free-will/
,,, Not to be outdone, CR stated:
"And as for knowing that “I” exist because I think—note that your knowledge that you think is only a memory of what you did think, a second or so ago, and that can easily be a false memory."
So exactly who is this 'you' that is supposedly having this false memory of existing CR? :) LOL Of related note to 'you' even having memories in the first place, Pim Von Lommel, who has done extensive research on Near Death Experiences, noted that, "For decades, extensive research has been done to localize memories inside the brain, so far without success.,,,,"
A Reply to Shermer: Medical Evidence for NDEs (Near Death Experiences) – Pim van Lommel Excerpt: For decades, extensive research has been done to localize memories inside the brain, so far without success.,,,, So we need a functioning brain to receive our consciousness into our waking consciousness. And as soon as the function of brain has been lost, like in clinical death or in brain death, with iso-electricity on the EEG, memories and consciousness do still exist, but the reception ability is lost. People can experience their consciousness outside their body, with the possibility of perception out and above their body, with identity, and with heightened awareness, attention, well-structured thought processes, memories and emotions. And they also can experience their consciousness in a dimension where past, present and future exist at the same moment, without time and space, and can be experienced as soon as attention has been directed to it (life review and preview), and even sometimes they come in contact with the “fields of consciousness” of deceased relatives. And later they can experience their conscious return into their body. https://vdocuments.site/a-reply-to-shermer-medical-evidence-for-ndes-by-pim-van-lommel.html The Mystery of Perception During Near Death Experiences - Pim van Lommel - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avyUsPgIuQ0
Here is a further note to substantiate Lommel's claim
What Neuroscientists Now Know About How Memories Are Born And Die Where, Exactly Are Our Memories? - August 12, 2020 Excerpt: At one time, neuroscientists believed that there must be a “seat” of memory in the brain, something like a room with a door marked Memory. They settled on two structures called hippocampi, on either side of the brain’s base.,,, But memories turned out to have no fixed address. Neuroscientist Matthew Cobb, author of "The Idea of the Brain", tells us, "But the hippocampuses are not the site of memory storage. Rather, these brain regions are the encoders and the routes through which memory formation seems to pass. The memories that are processed by the hippocampuses seem to be distributed across distant regions of the brain." - Matthew Cobb, “where Do Our Memories Live?” At The Scientist (May 1, 2020) ,, Cobb acknowledges, ,,, "Our brains might be like computers in terms of how they sometimes process information, but the way we store and recall our memories is completely different. We are not machines, nor are we like any machine we can currently envisage." - Matthew Cobb, “where Do Our Memories Live?” At The Scientist (May 1, 2020) https://mindmatters.ai/2020/08/what-neuroscientists-now-know-about-how-memories-are-born-and-die/
Brain surgeon Michel Egnor states the irresolvable dilemma for Darwinian materialists as such, "The brain is a physical thing. A memory is a psychological thing. A psychological thing obviously can’t be "stored" in the same way a physical thing can. It’s not clear how the term "store" could even apply to a psychological thing.,,, The fact is that the brain doesn’t store memories, and can’t store memories.,,, The assertion that the brain stores memories is logical nonsense that doesn’t even rise to the level of empirical testability."
Recalling Nana’s Face: Does Your Brain Store Memories? - Michael Egnor - December 8, 2014 Excerpt: The brain is a physical thing. A memory is a psychological thing. A psychological thing obviously can’t be "stored" in the same way a physical thing can. It’s not clear how the term "store" could even apply to a psychological thing.,,, The fact is that the brain doesn’t store memories, and can’t store memories.,,, The assertion that the brain stores memories is logical nonsense that doesn’t even rise to the level of empirical testability. https://evolutionnews.org/2014/12/recalling_nanas/
Thus CR appeal to memories to try to explain the existence of "I", besides being self refuting nonsense, is also of no avail for CR since memories, in and of themselves, like "I", simply refuses to reduced to materialistic explanations. Of related note to memories. Around the 20 minute mark of the following Near Death Experience documentary, the Life Review portion of the Near Death Experience is highlighted, with several testimonies relating how every word, thought, deed, and action, of a person's life (all the 'memories' from a person's life) is gone over in the presence of God:
Near Death Experience Documentary – commonalities of the experience – video https://youtu.be/5uDA4RgHolw?t=1200 Life review A life review is a phenomenon widely reported as occurring during near-death experiences,[1] in which a person rapidly sees much or the totality of their life history. It is often referred to by people having experienced this phenomenon as having their life "flash before their eyes". The life review is discussed in some detail by near-death experience scholars such as Raymond Moody, Kenneth Ring, and Barbara Rommer. A reformatory purpose seems commonly implicit in accounts, though not necessarily for earthly purpose, since return from a near-death experience may reportedly entail individual choice. Experiences number up to eight million in the United States.[2],,,, Subjects frequently describe their experience as panoramic, 3-D or holographic. During a life review, the subject's perception is reported to include not only their own perspective in increased vividness, as if they were reliving a given episode itself, but that of all other parties they interact with at each point being reviewed. The term 3D is employed to approximate the inclusion of different physical perspectives onto a scene; the intensity of a life review was described by one individual as enabling him to count every nearby mosquito; but equally common is the description of feeling the emotional experience of the other parties, including in one case virtually everyone in a room. While some accounts appear to describe scenes as selected, others more commonly narrate the experience as including things they had, probably naturally, long ago entirely forgotten, with "nothing left out". Experiencers commonly describe the intense vividness and detail as making them feel more alive than when normally conscious:,,, - per wikipedia
Verse:
Matthew 12:36-37 “But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”
bornagain77
PM1
Firstly, I deny that there’s anything rightly called “certain knowledge”. There are things of which we are certain, but they cannot count as knowledge for precisely that reason.
Utterly disgusting. Sick. Origenes
Ori: It follows that you do not infallibly know that you exist. In your view, it is possible that you do not exist.
From a previously referenced article....
I must now apologize for trying to trick you earlier: All the ideas that I suggested we might know infallibly are in fact falsehoods. “Two plus two” of course isn’t “four” as you’d discover if you wrote “2+2” in an arithmetic test when asked to add two and two. If we were infallible about matters of pure logic, no one would ever fail a logic test either. Stubbing your toe does not always hurt if you are focused on some overriding priority like rescuing a comrade in battle. And as for knowing that “I” exist because I think—note that your knowledge that you think is only a memory of what you did think, a second or so ago, and that can easily be a false memory. Moreover, if you think you are Napoleon, the person you think must exist because you think, doesn’t exist.
critical rationalist
@Ori I seem to have missed the comment when you explained how you've infallibly achieved each of the steps listed in #140? Inquiring minds want to know. Actually, since you seem incapable of keeping track of positions you find objectionable beyond a comment, if even that, I'll just list them here for you.
Even if, for the sake of argument, we assume there are infallible sources, how do we have infallible access to them in a way that their supposed infallibility can actually help us? – How could you infallibly identify a supposed infallible source, out of all possible sources? – If you managed that, how could you infallibly interpret that infallible source? – And if you manage that, how could you infallibly determine when to defer to that infallible source? IOW, any infallibly in a proposed infallible source cannot help us before our fallible human reasoning and problem solving has had its say. [...] After all, a chain is no stronger than its weakest link. So, assuming a source is infallible at the start doesn’t help [if you lack infallible access to it]. Right?
critical rationalist
@146
It’s a definition, not a theorem.
The sentences of arithmetic, including "2+2=4", are deduced from the Peano axioms. Russell and Whitehead demonstrated how to deduce the Peano axioms from set theory. In that sense, every sentence of arithmetic is a theorem of set theory. @147
No one has suggested, that what is certain is an infallible source of itself. Rather the existence of certain knowledge logically implies the existence of the distinct infallible source of that knowledge. Put differently, what is certain, that is an item of certain knowledge, can only result from a distinct infallible source.
Firstly, I deny that there's anything rightly called "certain knowledge". There are things of which we are certain, but they cannot count as knowledge for precisely that reason. (Cf my argument in 145). Secondly, I don't see how there could be a logical argument that takes the fact of certainty as a premise and has an infallible source of knowledge as a conclusion. But that is precisely what you committed yourself to when you said "the existence of certain knowledge logically implies the existence of the distinct infallible source of that knowledge". If the fact of certainty logically implies that there are infallible source of knowledge, then what's the deductively valid argument that has the fact of certainty as a premise and infallible sources of knowledge as the conclusion? PyrrhoManiac1
PM1@
PM1: I fully agree that there are no infallible sources of knowledge and that ….
Ori: It follows that you do not infallibly know that you exist. In your view, it is possible that you do not exist. Also, you do not know for certain that 2+2=4, that A=A, truth exists, and error exists. Correct?
PM1: I did not deny that there are some things about which I am certain. I only denied that there are any infallible sources of knowledge. I think it is a profound error to think that what is certain can be an infallible source of knowledge.
That would be a profound error, but this is confused. No one has suggested, that what is certain is an infallible source of itself. Rather the existence of certain knowledge logically implies the existence of the distinct infallible source of that knowledge. Put differently, what is certain, that is an item of certain knowledge, can only result from a distinct infallible source. Origenes
But 2+2=4, like all theorems of mathematics, is proven.
It's a definition, not a theorem. jerry
@144
It follows that you do not infallibly know that you exist. In your view, it is possible that you do not exist. Also, you do not know for certain that 2+2=4, that A=A, truth exists, and error exists. Correct?
I did not deny that there are some things about which I am certain. I only denied that there are any infallible sources of knowledge. I think it is a profound error to think that what is certain can be an infallible source of knowledge. My chief reason for thinking this is that one can be certain of that which it makes no sense to doubt: that doubt is simply unintelligible. But knowledge and doubt are intelligible contraries: it makes sense to doubt what one thinks one knows, or to doubt what someone else claims to know, or to respond to doubt with a demonstration of what is known. In short: it makes sense to doubt in the context of knowledge. Doubt has an intelligible foot-hold here. But doubt has no intelligible foothold when it comes to certainty. Hence, certainty and knowledge live in different 'boxes', if you will. The one has nothing to do with the other. And so nothing that is certain can serve as an infallible source of knowledge. There is also a difference, which you seem to overlook, between what cannot be doubted and what has been proven. I cannot conceive of doubting my own existence whilst engaged in the activity of conceiving of it, and I cannot conceive of my being impervious to correction about whatever is not certain ("error exists"). But 2+2=4, like all theorems of mathematics, is proven. It follows with deductive necessity from the axioms of arithmetic. Can I conceive of the possibility that future mathematicians could call those axioms into question? I don't know what that would look like. Then again, the axioms of Euclidean geometry seemed unquestionable for thousands of years until it was demonstrated that equally consistent systems could be constructed without the Parallel Postulate. PyrrhoManiac1
PM1 @143
I fully agree that there are no infallible sources of knowledge and that ....
It follows that you do not infallibly know that you exist. In your view, it is possible that you do not exist. Also, you do not know for certain that 2+2=4, that A=A, truth exists, and error exists. Correct? Origenes
@142 I fully agree that there are no infallible sources of knowledge and that fallibilism (about both empirical and formal knowledge) is the right way to proceed. I come to fallibilism via American pragmatism (Peirce, Dewey, Quine, Sellars) rather than via Popper, but the spirit is much the same. That said, I think I am still genuinely puzzled as to why justification is paired with infallibilism. It seems plausible enough to say that a scientific theory is warranted, justified, etc. if it has been tested numerous times and been revised in light of failures in the direction of more comprehensive and more productive explanations. (Maybe this is where I follow Lakatos and his idea of "progressive research programs" more than Popper.) In any event, the association between infallibilism and justification doesn't make sense to me -- I'm happy enough to reject infallibilism root-and-branch, but why throw away the baby with the bathwater? PyrrhoManiac1
The interesting question for me is why Popper would say that having survived iterated testing does not count as a form of justification. That is perhaps where I find myself resisting to how Critical Rationalist is presenting Popper’s views.
From this article, yet again....
Fallibilism has practical consequences for the methodology and administration of science, and in government, law, education, and every aspect of public life. The philosopher Karl Popper elaborated on many of these. He wrote:
The question about the sources of our knowledge . . . has always been asked in the spirit of: ‘What are the best sources of our knowledge—the most reliable ones, those which will not lead us into error, and those to which we can and must turn, in case of doubt, as the last court of appeal?’ I propose to assume, instead, that no such ideal sources exist—no more than ideal rulers—and that all ‘sources’ are liable to lead us into error at times. And I propose to replace, therefore, the question of the sources of our knowledge by the entirely different question: ‘How can we hope to detect and eliminate error?’
It’s all about error. We used to think that there was a way to organize ourselves that would minimize errors. This is an infallibilist chimera that has been part of every tyranny since time immemorial, from the “divine right of kings” to centralized economic planning. And it is implemented by many patterns of thought that protect misconceptions in individual minds, making someone blind to evidence that he isn’t Napoleon, or making the scientific crank reinterpret peer review as a conspiracy to keep falsehoods in place.
So, its not that knowledge doesn't exist, it just doesn't take the form you think it does. Again, this is why this discussion will go nowhere because you’ve defined knowledge as justified, true belief, even if in some weaker attempt at salvaging it in form of warrant, credences, etc.
Consider this: if there are no valid sources of knowledge, then we have no access to knowledge. I worry about this assumption.
As you should. This is not critical rationalism, BTW. This a false dilemma. And a rather problematic one.
The theory of knowledge is a tightrope that is the only path from A to B, with a long, hard drop for anyone who steps off on one side into “knowledge is impossible, progress is an illusion” or on the other side into “I must be right, or at least probably right.” Indeed, infallibilism and nihilism are twins. Both fail to understand that mistakes are not only inevitable, they are correctable (fallibly). Which is why they both abhor institutions of substantive criticism and error correction, and denigrate rational thought as useless or fraudulent. They both justify the same tyrannies. They both justify each other.
critical rationalist
@139
Remember that, according to Popper, there is only unjustifiable conjecture. I take it that you would agree with me, that conjecture is not knowledge.
Bearing in mind that I am no Popperian -- I would of course agree that mere conjecture is not knowledge. But of course it is not Popper's view that all we have is mere conjecture. His view is that empirical knowledge consists of those conjectures that, having been tested, have not yet been refuted. The fallibilism is that any claim of empirical knowledge may be refuted, if we were to be clever enough to devise a test that shows it to be false. (I am restricting myself to empirical knowledge because the a priori knowledge of logic and mathematics would seem to be in a different category. But if you had asked mathematicians before Goedel if arithmetic is complete, I am sure they would have said yes. And for all we know, mathematicians in the future may invent the tools they need to prove Goldbach's Conjecture.) The interesting question for me is why Popper would say that having survived iterated testing does not count as a form of justification. That is perhaps where I find myself resisting to how Critical Rationalist is presenting Popper's views. Critical Rationalist is saying that knowledge consists of conjectures that have been tested and which have survived testing up to now -- those conjectures that are testable, that have been tested, and which have up to now survived testing (perhaps iterated testing). I myself would want to say that knowledge claims are more reliable if they have survived multiple rounds of testing -- though I am not sure Popper would allow for that. But, more importantly, Critical Rationalist thinks that having survived iterated testing does not count as justification. And that is what I find puzzling. Why not?
Consider this: if there are no valid sources of knowledge, then we have no access to knowledge.
I worry about this assumption. If we needed "valid sources of knowledge" in order to have "access to knowledge", then we have the sources of knowledge prior to having knowledge. Now we want to consider if these sources are "valid". How are we to do so? If testing these sources for validity requires knowing anything at all, then we are in trouble. Either we can test their sources for validity because we do have some knowledge prior to being granted access to knowledge, or we cannot test these sources for validity because we do not have the knowledge that would be needed for doing so. So, either we are assuming that we already have knowledge, in which case there is no need to access it in the first place -- or else we cannot test these sources for validity, and so we cannot know anything at all. On this line of reasoning, the very idea that we need valid sources of knowledge in order to have knowledge collapses into sheer incoherence. Put otherwise, if one must already know that a source of knowledge is valid in order to use that source to test for validity, then we cannot escape the logical fallacy of begging the question. PyrrhoManiac1
If critical rationalism is true, what do we know? What knowledge do we have?
This discussion will continue to go nowhere because you’ve defined knowledge as justified, true belief, even if in some weaker attempt at salvaging it in form of warrant, credences, etc.
If there are no valid sources of knowledge, then we have no access to knowledge.
CR says sources are liable to lead us into error, not invalid. Also, invalid for what? Positivity justifying things? But CR doesn't suggest that either. IOW, it seems that you've concluded fallible sources are invalid, not CR. We find ourselves faced with fallible sources all the time. Are we suck and have to throw up our hands? Even if, for the sake of argument, we assume there are infallible sources, how do we have access to them in a way that its supposed infallibility can actually help us? - How could you infallibly identify a supposed infallible source, out of all possible sources? - If you managed that, how could you infallibly interpret that infallible source? - And if you manage that, how could you infallibly determine when to defer to that infallible source? IOW, any infallibly in a proposed infallible source cannot help us before our fallible human reasoning and problem solving has had its say. Also, note that this is effectively the same approach someone would take who didn't believe in the infallibility of a source. Assuming it's infallible doesn't allow you to skip any of those steps. After all, a chain is no stronger than its weakest link. So, assuming a source is infallible at the start doesn't help. Right? If you don't have infallible access to a source, then how could its proposed infallibility help us? critical rationalist
PM1 @138
As I see it, the solution to this puzzle lies in shifting the focus from the sources of knowledge (a notion that I find terribly problematic in itself) to the consequences of knowledge: what do we do with knowledge?
If critical rationalism is true, what do we know? What knowledge do we have? Your question "what do we do with knowledge?" makes little sense if we do not have knowledge. Remember that, according to Popper, there is only unjustifiable conjecture. I take it that you would agree with me, that conjecture is not knowledge.
“all knowledge is hypothetical” [OKN 30]; alternatively, “All knowledge remains… conjectural” [RASC xxxv]. In other passages it is “all theories” which are conjectural [eg OKN 80]. “Precision and certainty are false ideals. They are impossible to attain and therefore dangerously misleading …” (UNQ 24). He summed up with an oft-repeated aphorism: “We never know what we are talking about” (UNQ 27).
Consider this: if there are no valid sources of knowledge, then we have no access to knowledge. Origenes
@85
It is not true that the fact that our senses are theory-laden implies that we are cut off from objective reality.
Agreed, though here one would need to be careful with what exactly "our senses are theory laden" means, and what "objective reality" is (as well as what it would mean to be "cut off" from it). It would be a mistake to begin with the idea of our senses as barriers between our mind and the world. That mistake has a long history (beginning at least with Locke) and it should be rejected wholesale. Instead, we should begin with a conception of "the senses as perceptual systems" (to quote Gibson): animals are agents that actively exploring their environments and use their senses to detect, track, measure, and classify the features of their environment that are relevant to satisfying their needs. With a conception of the senses that is based in Gibson's ecological psychology (which has significant roots in William James's radical empiricism) rather than in the classical empiricism of Locke, Berkeley, and Hume, one arrives at a whole different way of seeing the nature of the problem to be solved. In this light, it is no great threat that our senses are theory-laden -- because every animal will have a host of embodied habits that are modulated by its sensory-guided interactions with its environment, and those habits are constrained by the cognitive maps that the animal has of itself in relation to its environment. What we call "theories" are our symbolic articulations of the material scientific practices that we use as the habits of the specific kind of symbol-making, word-smithing animals that we are.
More broadly the problem is this: all sources of knowledge are flawed in some respects, so how can we ever learn anything?
As I see it, the solution to this puzzle lies in shifting the focus from the sources of knowledge (a notion that I find terribly problematic in itself) to the consequences of knowledge: what do we do with knowledge? How do we use what we claim to know? Of particular importance here, I think, is the role of language and other forms of symbolic communication to make explicit and allow us to resolve differences between various perspectives. I think that the problems of knowledge, truth, justification, and reality take on a quite different shape when understood in terms of a bio-social approach to rational cognition. PyrrhoManiac1
@Origenes
These are merely conjectures that can never be justified.
And lack of justification is a problem, again, how? Oh that's right. It's a problem for you, which you keep projecting on me.
Bartley does provide guidance on adopting positions; we may adopt the position that to this moment has stood up to criticism most effectively. Of course this is no help for dogmatists who seek stronger reasons for belief, but that is a problem for them, not for exponents of critical preference.
critical rationalist
In #128 you are misquoting me. This is a nonsensical response and you know it. You understand perfectly well, that, in #127, my statements are aligned with critical rationalism.
I do? For example.
There is no knowledge only unjustifiable conjecture.
This isn't CR. So, where else did it come from? After all, this is exactly the opposite of what you quoted, which is supposedly part of, you guessed it, CR. Right?
More broadly the problem is this: all sources of knowledge are flawed in some respects, so how can we ever learn anything?
You keep appealing to sources being flawed, then abandon the remainder of CR when it's convenient for you. When this is pointed out to you, you just do it again. IOW, those conclusions are what you keep injecting this into the context implicitly. For example... Again, this discussion will continue to go nowhere because you’ve defined knowledge as justified, true belief, even if in some weaker attempt at salvaging it in form of warrant, credences, etc. Furthermore, your claim is not just a negation. It reflects an implicit argument that we are expected to accept. If this were true, then in real world scenarios where we find ourself faced with a number of leaf sources that are fallible, all we can do is just throw up our hands. But CR is not just a prediction, it's an description / explanation. As I've pointed out...
Fallibilism, correctly understood, implies the possibility, not the impossibility, of knowledge, because the very concept of error, if taken seriously, implies that truth exists and can be found.
What you seem to think is impossible is actually...
what counts is not whether any particular piece of information we get is flawed. Rather, what matters is whether we can correct those flaws. We can do this by comparing different sources and trying to come up with an explanation of the underlying objective reality that explains what all of the sources say. They will not all be flawed in the same way and so we can try to work out which ones are giving us bad information on any particular issue.
I then gave examples of how the approach of merely being wrong is problematic in real world scenarios. We can make progress despite our sources being fallible. We do it all the time. Witnesses are fallible. Suspects don't always tell the truth. The lack of DNA evidence can be explained by wearing gloves, etc. Multiple suspects need to get their lies straight, etc. Despite this, we can make progress. All of those sources will not be flawed in the same way. But, apparently, you think we cannot? Hence... Thank Zeus we’re not limited to whatever Origenes thinks is possible. Again, this is a case where you apparently cannot take an idea you find objectionable seriously for more than a comment, if even that. Specially error, if taken seriously, does imply the possibility of knowledge. But this was nowhere to be found in your comment. Taking it seriously does not suit your purpose. Note how this is the opposite to my approach, in the other thread. critical rationalist
~ Critical Rationalism Applied to Itself ~ From the Elliot Temple website https://criticalfallibilism.com/debate-criticism-argument-strengths-and-intuitions/ :
Every criticism (decisive refutation) of an idea must be refuted or else the idea is refuted.
A “decisive refutation” of an idea, must contain certain knowledge. In the context of theory of critical rationalism (henceforth TRC), the problem is, of course, that there is no certain knowledge. So, according to TRC, there can never be a decisive refutation of any theory.
It can be useful to divide refutation of criticism (counter-criticism) into two types. First (standard type), you can point out a flaw (error, mistake) in a criticism.
According to TRC the claim that a criticism contains a flaw can only be unjustified conjecture, so, there cannot be valid counter-criticism.
Second, you can say how a criticism is compatible with its target succeeding at its goal(s).
According to TRC the wild conjecture that “a criticism is compatible with its target succeeding at its goal(s)” can never be justified.
In other words, even if the criticism is correct, the idea it criticizes still isn’t refuted. The criticism is indecisive. The criticism doesn’t contradict its target.
According to TRC, wild conjectures such as “criticism is indecisive” or “criticism doesn’t contradict its target” are claims of having certain knowledge that simply does not exist. These are merely conjectures that can never be justified.
Many alleged criticisms are not really criticisms because they are compatible with the thing they criticize.
According to TRC, the claim that certain criticisms are “compatible with the thing they criticize” is merely unjustified conjecture .... …. and so on, without end. Origenes
CR
Also, this is exactly how I solve problems when tracking down bugs when developing software. Where the problem is is itself often reflects a possible bug in ether code in the OS, a third party API when you can’t see the code. “..trying to come up with an explanation of the underlying objective reality that explains what all of the sources say.” is the approach that senior developer use on a regular basis.
There is no point in discussing common sense approaches that have no relationship with critical irrationalism. A senior developer who is a true critical rationalist cannot even positively identify a problem as a “problem.” Because, under critical rationalism, to say that something is a “problem” would be a claim to knowledge that one cannot have. A true critical rationalist doesn’t trust his senses nor his conjectures, and cannot arrive at any certainty that there is a problem. So, under critical rationalism, there is no way, to positively justify the “wild” conjecture that something is a problem in the first place, let alone solve it.
For example, when I get a non-technical report of some application, API or system providing a “wrong result”, I ask “Find out exactly how is it wrong.”
A true critical rationalist would point out to you that your question "Find out exactly how is it wrong” is bonkers. Because you are asking for certain knowledge that does not exist. As Popper put it:
“Precision and certainty are false ideals. They are impossible to attain and therefore dangerously misleading...” [UNQ 24].
Also, why do you uncritically accept “wrong result” to be true? A critical rationalist would know that the claim “wrong result” is mere unjustifiable conjecture. Origenes
CR In #128 you are misquoting me. And you follow up with:
Thank Zeus we’re not limited to whatever Origenes thinks is possible. (....) .... apparently Origenes would just throw up his hands and we’d all die?
This is a nonsensical response and you know it. You understand perfectly well, that, in #127, my statements are aligned with critical rationalism. When I write nonsense like "there is no knowledge, only unjustifiable conjecture" and "all sources are fallible", it is because that is the case according to Popper. It does not reflect my opinion at all. The fact that you misquote me and your response are both disappointing. Origenes
“..trying to come up with an explanation of the underlying objective reality that explains what all of the sources say.” is the approach that senior developer use on a regular basis.
To explain this in more detail, it's not unusual to find documentation for a third or first party API which is wrong, unclear or even absent. And that if that API is proprietary, you can't look at the source code to see how it actually works, or doesn't work in some cases. One solution is to conjecture how the API works, under the hood, to generate its output. From there you can carefully craft various input values, then feed them into the API to attempt to see what values cause the issue, which does not, etc. IOW, this is an attempt to refute that underlying model of how the API works. Again, this is a high-level, senior developer technique used to making progress when most people, apparently like Origenes, would throw up their hands and say "I don't know how to make progresses." critical rationalist
@KF Already addressed here: https://conjecturesandrefutations.com/2013/07/ Did you get those quotes from Dykes? critical rationalist
For example, when I get a non-technical report of some application, API or system providing a "wrong result", I ask "Find out exactly how is it wrong." Specifically It's not just that a result is wrong, in some generic sense. Exactly how it is wrong is instrumental in deducting out where the problem is. Or, more importantly, were it isn't. You can spend days trying to track down an issue, only to get an update from a customer on exactly how the result is wrong, which allows you to find the problem in 5 minutes. I've taught this to every intern I worked with and mentored. And they tech it to people they mentor, etc. Another maximum: Make the smallest change you can make to a system that could rule out the biggest piece of the pie as being the cause of an issue. If the issue remains, make the next smallest change, and then the next, etc. This systematically rules out where the issue is not. until you're left with where the problem must be. Even if you only get a different wrong result, that tells you something. If you propose that sub system z plays role q in problem x, change z to see if that even makes a difference, even if it's just to get a different wrong answer. If it doesn't change in a way that you'd expect, had in actually played role q in reality, then z didn't play the role you thought it played. These kind of scenarios are common in specific fields. Hopeful I never have to depend on Origenes in any of these cases to make progress. critical rationalist
CR, kindly note the problems in the wider cite, not to mention my own in extenso cite from the preface to Conjectures and Refutations. Observe, as I highlight and note:
when we propose a theory, or try to understand a theory, we also propose, or try to understand, its logical implications; that is, all [--> sets up a strawman, no we generally look at key implications and predictions for testing etc, not an impossible transfinite supertask] those statements which follow from it. But this, as we have just seen, is a hopeless task [--> strawman knocked over] : there is an infinity of unforeseeable nontrivial statements belonging to the informative content of any theory, and an exactly corresponding infinity of statements belonging to its logical content. We can therefore never know or understand all the implications of any theory, or its full significance [--> which precisely no one set out to do, and indeed, this comes right back to Popper through self-reference]
So, we are back to the concerns such as "“Precision and certainty are false ideals. They are impossible to attain and therefore dangerously misleading …” (UNQ 24) . . . . “We never know what we are talking about” (UNQ 27)." Going to 105 above, cited with context from Conjectures and Refutations, and to your own arguments commented on in 94 and 96, there are similar breakdowns. Try your: "Knowledge is not true because all ideas are incomplete and contain errors to some degree." Such as || + ||| --> ||||| ? Or, the like? No, even, error exists is an undeniably true and self evident truth, free from error and not requiring an infinite regress of warrant. And more as can be traced above. KF kairosfocus
@Origenes
Second, what counts is not whether any particular piece of information we get is flawed. Rather, what matters is whether we can correct those flaws.
We cannot.
We can do this by comparing different sources …
It would be to no avail. All sources are fallible.
… and trying to come up with an explanation of the underlying objective reality that explains what all of the sources say.
It would be to no avail. All sources are fallible.
Thank Zeus we're not limited to whatever Origenes thinks is possible. For example If I found myself in a life or death situation, in which there were multiple options that disagreed with each other in different but specific ways, apparently Origenes would just throw up his hands and we'd all die? Also, this is exactly how I solve problems when tracking down bugs when developing software. Where the problem is is itself often reflects a possible bug in ether code in the OS, a third party API when you can't see the code. "..trying to come up with an explanation of the underlying objective reality that explains what all of the sources say." is the approach that senior developer use on a regular basis. critical rationalist
CR
It is not true that the fact that our senses are theory-laden implies that we are cut off from objective reality.
You are mistaken, it is true.
More broadly the problem is this: all sources of knowledge are flawed in some respects, so how can we ever learn anything?
We cannot.
First, knowledge can have implications beyond the problem that it was invented to solve.
There is no knowledge only unjustifiable conjecture.
Our eyes can be used to do things they did not evolve to do like looking at readings on scientific instruments: they are limited by the content of the knowledge instantiated in them not by the problem they originally evolved to solve.
Nice try, but there is no escape route here:
Popper: “All observations (and even more all experiments) are theory impregnated: they are interpretations in the light of theories. We observe only what our problems, our biological situation, our interests, our expectations, and our action programmes, make relevant. Just as our observational instruments are based upon theories, so are our very sense organs without which we cannot observe” [TSIB 134]. “there is no such thing as an unprejudiced observation” [UNQ 51]. “neither the dryness nor the remoteness of a topic of natural science prevent partiality and self-interest from interfering with the individual scientist’s beliefs… if we had to depend on his detachment, science, even natural science, would be quite impossible” [POH 155]. “theories come before observations”
Second, what counts is not whether any particular piece of information we get is flawed. Rather, what matters is whether we can correct those flaws.
We cannot.
We can do this by comparing different sources …
It would be to no avail. All sources are fallible.
… and trying to come up with an explanation of the underlying objective reality that explains what all of the sources say.
The baseless idea that the majority of sources is correct, is merely unjustifiable conjecture. You have got nothing.
They will not all be flawed in the same way and so we can try to work out which ones are giving us bad information on any particular issue.
There is no way of knowing which sources give bad information and which do not. All attempts to figure that out would amount to unjustifiable conjecture. Origenes
KF's on Willard vs Popper.
Other clips from Popper cannot even be rescued to that extent: Popper: “Precision and certainty are false ideals. They are impossible to attain and therefore dangerously misleading …” (UNQ 24). Popper: “We never know what we are talking about” (UNQ 27) These are irretrievably self defeating, hopeless monsters. Instead, Willard and heirs stand up much better.
But, if you actually care to put that in context...
“I have in lectures often described this interesting situation by saying: we never know what we are talking about. For when we propose a theory, or try to understand a theory, we also propose, or try to understand, its logical implications; that is, all those statements which follow from it. But this, as we have just seen, is a hopeless task : there is an infinity of unforeseeable nontrivial statements belonging to the informative content of any theory, and an exactly corresponding infinity of statements belonging to its logical content. We can therefore never know or understand all the implications of any theory, or its full significance
Excluding the rest of the paragraph is disingenuous at best. This is yet another example of how KF's claim of hyper-skepticism is a false dilemma. Either he knows this quite well, if he intentionally omitted it, or he's so utterly uninterested in actually presenting Popper's views accurately that he didn't look for the actual context of that sentence. Actually, it's not even a full sentence. Neither bode well. How does this reflect the behavior of someone trying to present an accurate representation of Popper's view? What gives? KF, how do you explain this? What else are we supposed to conclude? What will I find if I look for the context of the first quote? Also, note how this correlates with "All ideas contain errors to some degree and / or are incomplete." critical rationalist
Origenes, solid question. I suspect, that in the ideas climate of 1962, with scientism dominant, Popper sounded very different from how he does now. The preface, outlining his thesis, has not worn well. This becomes yet another example of why we need to be careful of self referentiality and its potential for incoherence. And while Popper did emphasise science, something like
"The way in which knowledge progresses , and especially our scientific knowledge, is by unjustified (and unjustifiable) anticipations, by guesses, by tentative solutions to our problems, by conjectures" [etc]
. . . can only embrace or invite embracing of knowledge in general in his strictures. We can build a better balanced account of knowledge, indeed, but that will look a lot like Willard and heirs. Unsurprising, there is fifty years of progress in that. KF kairosfocus
@Origenes: More wack-a-mole? See #85 and #112. Bonus: The logic of experimental tests, particularly of Everettian quantum theory See 2. Explanations of explicanda critical rationalist
CR @ Given that criticisms are mere unjustifiable conjectures and tests are not neutrally interpretable due to our untrustworthy senses and untrustworthy instruments (see #97), how does one, under critical rationalism, establish the validity of a specific criticism or test? - - - - -
CR: Hyper skepticism is a claim that we know nothing. I’m not a hyper skeptic. This a false dilemma.
Ori: What, according to you, do we know? What is above and beyond unjustifiable conjecture?
CR: ...... uh ....
Origenes
CR, it is clear that something is very wrong with the frame we are seeing from Popper et al. Only an account of knowledge that allows knowledge as a concept to belong to the people will work.
Yes. it is clear that, if you're a justificationist, you will find something very wrong with the frame seen from Popper, et all. That's literally what it means to be a justificationist. Right? That's literally what it means to say that knowledge is justified, true belief, even if in some weaker. There must be some positive direction, otherwise something is very wrong with it. Yet, I just gave a thought example of Popper’s thought experiment (#102:16), which you completely ignored. Again, this discussion will continue to go nowhere because you’ve defined knowledge as justified, true belief, even if in some weaker attempt at salvaging it in form of warrant, credences, etc. critical rationalist
@Origenes
How then do you establish the validity of a specific criticism or test?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=folTvNDL08A
So, being proved wrong by observation and changing their theory accordingly still wouldn't have got the ancient Greeks one jot closer to understanding seasons, because their explanation was bad -- easy to vary. And it's only when an explanation is good that it even matters whether it's testable. If the axis-tilt theory had been refuted, its defenders would have had nowhere to go. No easily implemented change could make that tilt cause the same seasons in both hemispheres. The search for hard-to-vary explanations is the origin of all progress. It's the basic regulating principle of the Enlightenment. So, in science, two false approaches blight progress. One's well-known: untestable theories. But the more important one is explanation-less theories. Whenever you're told that some existing statistical trend will continue but you aren't given a hard-to-vary account of what causes that trend, you're being told a wizard did it. When you are told that carrots have human rights because they share half our genes, but not how gene percentages confer rights -- wizard. When someone announces that the nature-nurture debate has been settled because there's evidence that a given percentage of our political opinions are genetically inherited, but they don't explain how genes cause opinions, they've settled nothing. They're saying that our opinions are caused by wizards, and presumably, so are their own. (Laughter) That the truth consists of hard-to-vary assertions about reality is the most important fact about the physical world. It's a fact that is itself unseen, yet impossible to vary.
But the conjectured criteria of being hard to vary isn't limited to just science. It's a universal. It has reach. Criticism, in science takes the form of empirical tests. Science is a special case of good explanations applied to the physical world. See Deutsch's contribution on the topic "Can Science Provide Ultimate Answers". critical rationalist
CR, it is clear that something is very wrong with the frame we are seeing from Popper et al. Only an account of knowledge that allows knowledge as a concept to belong to the people will work. This will require weak as well as strong senses, and it must not be self referentially incoherent or deploy deflective devices to block others from pointing this out as an issue. Willard, c 2013 is manifestly far more on target than Popper was, c 1962. KF kairosfocus
This reflects the last 60 years of debates and has the major advantages of recognising ordinary people, rejecting selective or global hyperskepticism, not being self referentially incoherent, and allowing degrees of warrant.
There's that pesky false dilemma again. Yes. It is getting repetitive. critical rationalist
PM1, yes, it is arguable that the original sense of justified included issues of objective warrant. But over the past generation it has become necessary to mark a distinction. Multiply by the point that knowledge belongs to the people and that we must avoid self referential discredit and we see that we need a sense that can take in utter certainty but also weaker degrees of warrant still adequate to have credible truth and so reliability. Good enough to bet the farm, so to speak. KF kairosfocus
CR, obviously, as the very term, warrant, highlights, I am not a "justificationist." Just as, I am not a "Scientismist," and I am not an "empiricist." Gettier was 60 years ago and Plantinga on Warrant and Proper function 40 - 50. If any thing, call me a a modified Willardist, if labels solve problems (though this only highlights that Willard has made some good points). KF PS, Having addressed the concerns above, I draw your attention again, to what is already in 2 above and would have solved many problems. I add a further note or two:
To have knowledge in the dispositional sense—where you know things you are not necessarily thinking about at the time—is to be able to represent something as it is on an adequate basis of thought or experience, not to exclude communications from qualified sources (“authority”). This is the “knowledge” of ordinary life [--> knowledge belongs to the people], and it is what you expect of your electrician, auto mechanic, math teacher, and physician. Knowledge is not rare, and it is not esoteric [--> our understanding must not rob ordinary people of knowledge, it must accept that ordinary people know many things on a responsible basis, this recognition would solve many needless issues] . . . no satisfactory general description of “an adequate basis of thought or experience” has ever been achieved. [--> we asess case by case in merits of warrant] We are nevertheless able to determine in many specific types of cases that such a basis is or is not present [p.19] . . . . Knowledge, but not mere belief or feeling, generally confers the right to act and to direct action, or even to form and supervise policy. [p. 20, this is a rub in a day of undermining legitimate expertise and authority] In any area of human activity, knowledge brings certain advantages. Special considerations aside, knowledge authorizes one to act, to direct action, to develop and supervise policy, and to teach. It does so because, as everyone assumes, it enables us to deal more successfully with reality: with what we can count on, have to deal with, or are apt to have bruising encounters with [--> as warranted, it is reliable and even credibly the case, so to act contrary to it without good reason is irresponsible]. Knowledge involves assured [--> warranted, credible] truth, and truth in our representations and beliefs is very like accuracy in the sighting mechanism on a gun. If the mechanism is accurately aligned—is “true,” it enables those who use it with care to hit an intended target. [p. 4, Dallas Willard & Literary Heirs, The Disappearance of Moral Knowledge, Routledge|Taylor& Francis Group, 2018. ]
This reflects the last 60 years of debates and has the major advantages of recognising ordinary people, rejecting selective or global hyperskepticism, not being self referentially incoherent, and allowing degrees of warrant. kairosfocus
Andrew at 114, "Yep. And it’s getting nastier and repetitive. :) I... I noticed that! relatd
CR
Ori: Conjecture has to “survive” criticism and tests. Clearly, *somehow* criticism & tests are sources of unquestionable truth.
CR: Cleary? They are adopted tentatively. How is that unquestionable?
How then do you establish the validity of a specific criticism or test? - - - - - -
CR: Hyper skepticism is a claim that we know nothing. I’m not a hyper skeptic. This a false dilemma.
Ori: What, according to you, do we know? What is above and beyond unjustifiable conjecture?
CR: ….
Origenes
"ID must be denied… and denied… and denied, etc." Relatd, Yep. And it's getting nastier and repetitive. ;) Andrew asauber
Andrew at 106, ID must be denied... and denied... and denied, etc. relatd
Conjecture has to “survive” criticism and tests. Clearly, *somehow* criticism & tests are sources of unquestionable truth.
Cleary? They are adopted tentatively. How is that unquestionable? It seems you cannot read even a simple sentence without injecting that assumption into the content. Observations and experience are neutral without first being placed in some kind of explanatory framework. The is what I meant when I wrote...
This discussion will continue to go nowhere because you’ve defined knowledge as justified, true belief, even if in some weaker attempt at salvaging it in form of warrant, credences, etc.
This is precisely why observations are theory laden. That sentence does not contain that assumption. So your experience of reading cannot be the source of that assumption. You bring that to the table, when you bring your theory of knowledge to interpret it. And you continually do so, despite having been given clarifications to the contrary. So, what gives? Apparently you're not actually interested in advice or input, as you keep ignoring it. It's just theater? Or perhaps you cannot conceive of it beyond a single comment or even a single sentence? So I find myself in effectively a wack-a-mole scenario, in which , as soon as one misconception is clarified, another pops up, and another, until eventually we end up back were we started. etc.? This is why I keep saying I'm not an anti-theist. Theism is a special case of justificationism. critical rationalist
I think there's something actually quite philosophically and psychologically interesting about how Plato understood what's become known as "the JTB model". A more accurate translation of what he had in mind would be "true insight with an account". That is, one needs to be able to articulate one's discerning insight. The paradigm of this is teaching: as all teachers know, and as Plato himself understood perfectly well, the hallmark of how well you understand something is how well you can teach it. I think there's a crucial insight there that we should not jettison just because causal explanations are not derived from inductive generalizations, though inductive generalizations are crucial for how we test proposed causal explanations. PyrrhoManiac1
See the problems?
Do I see the problems for you, as a justificationist? Yes. But you're projecting that problem on me. We do not need justification. That we do, otherwise we know nothing, is implicit in your objections. It's a false dilemma. We do not need to salvage the JTB theory of knowledge. This discussion will continue to go nowhere because you've defined knowledge as justified, true belief, even if in some weaker attempt at salvaging it in form of warrant, credences, etc. From the refutation of Dykes on Popper....
Popper's actual position is that words can’t be defined with perfect accuracy since all definitions have to employ undefined words. Suppose I say that a tiger is “a big cat”. If all the terms are defined then there is a definition of “a” and “big” and “cat” and these definitions refer to other words and if those definitions are defined then they lead to still more definitions with still more words… So either we use undefined words or we have an infinite regress. As a result of this problem the habit of trying to understand the world by coming up with the right definitions, which Popper calls “methodological essentialism”, is untenable. A word is shorthand for an idea not for some imaginary perfect definition. As such, we should be willing to change terminology to talk in ways that other people understand. That is, we should be willing to use their definitions. Furthermore, we should never try to be more precise than is necessary to address the problem we are dealing with since this will lead to loss of clarity. The best summary of his position on this issue is (Unended Quest, p. 24):
Every increase in clarity is an intellectual value in itself; an increase in precision or exactness has only a pragmatic value as a means to some definite end – where the end is usually an increase in testability or criticizability demanded by the problem situation…
Dykes never states let alone answers Popper’s argument on definitions.
You wrote....
Clearly, nothing in this that is of value goes beyond, knowledge belongs to the people...
Clearly, in Popper's thought experiment (#102:16), retaining knowledge in books, but not people, has no value? Again, we can more fundamentally conceive of knowledge as information that plays a causal role in being retained when embedded in a storage medium. Where those Venn diagrams I keep asking you for? We're up to 2 now. Here's a third. Draw a circle for "knowledge is information that plays a casual role in being retained when embedded in a storage medium" and "knowledge in respect to knowing subjects." Where does this fail to overlap? Does knowledge in people not play a causal role in being retained? From the other thread...
Take memes, for example. Memes that are well adapted to replicate go viral, while other memes do not. Their content plays a causal role in whether they will be retained or not, when embedded in a storage medium. Can we replace one meme with another and get the same result, despite memes being "non-material"? There must be some crucial [, causal] aspect of a meme that causes it to go viral. Otherwise, we could replace one meme with any other meme and get the same result. But this doesn’t seem to the case. Right? This is despite the fact that being "non-material", memes are instantiated in brains, books, hard drives, etc.
What the heck is going on here? critical rationalist
KF @105 Excellent commentary and summary. The unexplained privileged status of criticism in Popper’s concept jumps out at me. Conjecture has to “survive” criticism and tests. Clearly, *somehow* criticism & tests are sources of unquestionable truth. But how can that be? Every criticism is necessarily mere unjustified conjecture. And, according to Popper, we can neither trust our senses, our instruments, nor our interpretation of tests — see #97. I would suggest that the whole idea is incoherent. Origenes
CR, both can be true, as say the schools level "scientific method" highlights. Laws and theories are posed to explain patterns that are observed. Predictive power for future observations becomes a key reliability test. KF PS, there is global hyperskepticism and there is selective. For the latter, favoured theories or narratives are treated far more leniently than those that are disfavoured when an examination of resources for warrant would indicate that they should be treated alike. Double standards, in short, now a fast spreading problem. kairosfocus
To clarify, empiricism was an improvement in that it emphasized empirical observations. However, it got the role of empirical observations backwards. Theories are tested by observations, not derived from them. critical rationalist
"since we can never know for certain, there can be no authority here for any claim to authority" Some simply refuse to get it. And so the years pass by... Andrew asauber
F/N: Popper's introductory summary, in Preface to Conjectures and Refutations, with brief comments and a few notes following. Note, we have here what can be termed an exercise in mixed messaging, which tries to deflect otherwise fatal objections, the key will be to see the self referentiality involved:
. . . The way in which knowledge progresses [a --> so, generality is intended], and especially our scientific knowledge [b --> focal/dominant domain, the scientism issue lurks], is by unjustified (and unjustifiable) anticipations [c --> evades warrant, wild guessing does not work, abductive reasoning is being deflected and invidiously associated with want of responsible approach], by guesses, by tentative solutions to our problems, by conjectures . These conjectures are controlled by criticism [d --> privileging of hyperskepticism is invited]; that is, by attempted refutations [e --> only in part, warrant is being cramped here] , which include severely critical tests [f --> further invitation to elitist hyperskepticism]. They may survive these tests; but they can never be positively justified [f --> utter certainty smuggled in as criterion, but most common experience knowledge is not utterly certain, nor is Math post Godel]: they can neither be established as certainly true nor even as 'probable' (in the sense of the probability calculus) [g --> what of responsibly warranted, credibly true and tested, reliable propositions?]. Criticism of our conjectures is of decisive importance: by bringing out our mistakes it makes us understand the difficulties of the problem which we are trying to solve. [h --> critique is an issue but neither the sole nor dominant one, that is, to hold a proposition for good reason] This is how we become better acquainted with our problem, and able to propose more mature solutions: the very refutation of a theory--that is, of any serious tentative solution to our problem--is always a step forward that takes us nearer to the truth. [i --> not at all, back to square one can happen] And this is how we can learn from our mistakes. [j --> and, is this summary, a meta theory of knowledge, itself under these strictures? If so, it too is of low credibility] As we learn from our mistakes our knowledge grows, even though we may never know--that is, know for certain. [k --> the absolute certainty strawman is made explicit] Since our knowledge can grow, there can be no reason here for despair of reason.
[l --> deflection, to evade the self referential incoherence of a general knowledge claim that we cannot know to certainty, but if this is not certain, then it is possible that we can know some things to utter certainty and this claim collapses. Try, || + ||| --> ||||| using fingers to illustrate, or error exists or knowledge is possible. The thesis has collapsed, by self referential self defeat. Similarly, by privileging hyperskepticism, which invites power games as deciding what is or is not stamped knowledge vs conspiracy theories or pseudoscience or the like. Resemblance to media tactics etc is not coincidental.]
And since we can never know for certain, there can be no authority here for any claim to authority [m --> delegitimising expertise, knowledge, reference], for conceit over our knowledge, or for smugness. [n --> what about reasonable confidence?] Those among our theories which turn out to be highly resistant to criticism [o --> what is valid in this is, what is well warranted for good reason has the balance on merits], and which appear to us at a certain moment of time to be better approximations to truth [p --> how do we measure closeness to truth than by warrant?] than other known theories [q --> superiority on comparative difficulties across factual adequacy, coherence, explanatory power], may be described, together with the reports of their tests, as 'the science' of that time. [r --> science as prestige] Since none of them can be positively justified, [s --> including this meta theory?] it is essentially their critical and progressive character -the fact that we can argue about their claim to solve our problems better than their competitors--which constitutes the rationality of science.
See the problems? Clearly, nothing in this that is of value goes beyond, knowledge belongs to the people, so we must reckon with a weak sense not just a strong one. Where, knowledge is warranted, credibly true (so, reliable but potentially revisable) belief, still stands. KF kairosfocus
CR @
Hyper skepticism is a claim that we know nothing. I’m not a hyper skeptic. This a false dilemma.
What, according to you, do we know? What is above and beyond unjustifiable conjecture? Origenes
@KF
CR: While this seemed like a good foundation roughly 100 years ago, when empiricism was conceived, KF: Not relevant to what is on the table.
The context of this was examples of being self-contridctory. And I was clear about the definition that was founded roughly 100 years ago. So, It is relevant. Arguments for attempts to salvage empiricism, like attempts to salvage the JTB theory of knowledge, are found in that very same comment, which you ignored, and elsewhere in this thread. Why don't you start there? For example....
Such ideas do not create themselves, nor can they be mechanically derived from anything: they have to be guessed – after which they can be criticized and tested. To the extent that experiencing dots ‘writes’ something into our brains, it does not write explanations but only dots. Nor is nature a book: one could try to ‘read’ the dots in the sky for a lifetime – many lifetimes – without learning anything about what they really are.”
Theories are not "out there" for us to observe. So, they cannot be derived from experience. Origenes claimed this was a weird idea refuted by Dykes. To quote Dykes..
, is Popper asking us to accept that the heliocentric theory came before observation of perturbations in planetary orbits? Or that insect-eating plants were surmised before Darwin happened to examine sundews?
Are they mere outliners that have gone "rogue" in thinking this conflicts with a modern interpretation of empiricism? critical rationalist
1: No-one has sought to define knowledge as justified, true belief, as a clue, consider the import of “warrant” in this context, given Gettier, Plantinga and others.
“The philosopher Plato wrote in Theaetetus about how one comes to know something. He is responsible for giving us our understanding of knowledge, which has been called justified true belief, now known as the JTB theory.
Since then, philosophers have been trying to salvage at least some aspects of JTB theory from criticisms such as the Gettier problem, etc. Specially, salvaging some kind of positive direction of justification, like warrant, credences, etc. 2: See above. >>– For some a to justified by b, then b must be justified, by some c, which must be justified by some d, etc.>> 3: Again, Popper’s reasonable response is to give up the quest for justification all together. We do not need it. What we have are ideas that we currently lack good criticism of. Can you draw a Venn diagram of basic beefs and ideas that we currently lack good criticism of that does not completely overlap? 4: See above 5: Given that ID’s designer is abstract, it is an explanation less authority. >>– Knowledge is not true because all ideas are incomplete and contain errors to some degree.>> 6: Both hyperskeptical and self defeating, ending in, there is no knowledge of truth. Hyper skepticism is a claim that we know nothing. I’m not a hyper skeptic. This a false dilemma.
William Warren Bartley compared critical rationalism to the very general philosophical approach to knowledge which he called justificationism, the view that scientific theories can be justified. Most justificationists do not know that they are justificationists. Justificationism is what Popper called a "subjectivist" view of truth, in which the question of whether some statement is true is confused with the question of whether it can be justified (established, proven, verified, warranted, made well-founded, made reliable, grounded, supported, legitimated, based on evidence) in some way. According to Bartley, some justificationists are positive about this mistake. They are naïve rationalists, and thinking that their knowledge can indeed be founded, in principle, it may be deemed certain to some degree, and rational. Other justificationists are negative about these mistakes. They are epistemological relativists, and think (rightly, according to the critical rationalist) that you cannot find knowledge, that there is no source of epistemological absolutism. But they conclude (wrongly, according to the critical rationalist) that there is therefore no rationality, and no objective distinction to be made between the true and the false. By dissolving justificationism itself, the critical rationalist (a proponent of non-justificationism)[8] regards knowledge and rationality, reason and science, as neither foundational nor infallible, but nevertheless does not think we must therefore all be relativists. Knowledge and truth still exist, just not in the way we thought.
In fact this is highly prevalent in your response. So I’ll just note this in points where appropriate. 7: What was assumed about Pythagorean's theorem before general relativity? Had you asked me what was erroneous about Pythagorean's theorem before general relativity, what would have been my answer?
Kant associated geometric knowledge with the pure intuition of space; to know that an isosceles triangle (i.e. with two equal sides) has two equal angles at the base, the mathematician must produce a particular construction that makes the truth of the claim demonstrable,
And the false dilemma. 8: The false dilemma. 9: The false dilemma 13: Which attempts to salvage the JTB theory of knowledge. 14: The false dilemma. 15: Which attempts to salvage the JTB theory of knowledge. 16: Belief is not limited to brains. Take Popper’s thought experiment. All of the knowledge in people that is also currently in books is somehow lost. It may take hundreds of years to get back to where we are now, but it we will recover, because that knowledge remains in books Now, propose all of that knowledge is lost in both people and books. It will take us millennia to recover, if even at all. Knowledge is objective. It plays a causal role in being retained when embedded in a storage medium. It is independent of knowing subjects. 17: But, again, the idea that we need justification in any form, as some means of salvaging the JTB theory’s positive, direction, is unnecessarily. It reflects a a subjectivist theory of truth, as indicated above. critical rationalist
@Origenes 99
I have made an earlier attempt to read this alleged “refutation” of Dykes and failed.
An earlier attempt would have failed because the link was broken. So, unless you searched via google to find it, this isn't exactly unexpected. Should my response be: "What on earth do you mean? What's wrong with you?"
Totally unreadable.
Being "totally unreadable" is highly vague criticism. See above. critical rationalist
PyrrhoManiac1
Slightly off-topic, but related: I recently read Erik Larson’s The Myth of Artificial Intelligence in which abduction — or guessing — is central to the account of why AGI is currently impossible.
You might find Deutsch's article in Aeon magazine interesting. From the article...
The lack of progress in AGI is due to a severe logjam of misconceptions. Without Popperian epistemology, one cannot even begin to guess what detailed functionality must be achieved to make an AGI. And Popperian epistemology is not widely known, let alone understood well enough to be applied. Thinking of an AGI as a machine for translating experiences, rewards and punishments into ideas (or worse, just into behaviours) is like trying to cure infectious diseases by balancing bodily humours: futile because it is rooted in an archaic and wildly mistaken world view. Without understanding that the functionality of an AGI is qualitatively different from that of any other kind of computer program, one is working in an entirely different field. If one works towards programs whose ‘thinking’ is constitutionally incapable of violating predetermined constraints, one is trying to engineer away the defining attribute of an intelligent being, of a person: namely creativity. Clearing this logjam will not, by itself, provide the answer. Yet the answer, conceived in those terms, cannot be all that difficult. For yet another consequence of understanding that the target ability is qualitatively different is that, since humans have it and apes do not, the information for how to achieve it must be encoded in the relatively tiny number of differences between the DNA of humans and that of chimpanzees. So in one respect I can agree with the AGI-is-imminent camp: it is plausible that just a single idea stands between us and the breakthrough. But it will have to be one of the best ideas ever.
Also, see Deutsche's essay in the "Possible Minds" book interesting. Here's a video of Deutsch reading it. critical rationalist
CR @98 I have made an earlier attempt to read this alleged "refutation" of Dykes and failed. Totally unreadable. Origenes
@Origenes
Your advice, please.
While you could have searched for it, the link to the refutation of Dykes on Popper in my previous comment was broken. The correct link is here. If you actually want my advice, come back when you’re read the post. critical rationalist
With all the negativity aimed at "empiricism", and the intense distrust of our senses, one has to wonder how fallibilism is supposed to work, and how conjecture is being tested. I note that according to Popper, even “our observational instruments are based upon theories” [TSIB 134] and thus also suspect as producers of sense data. So, how then does irreparably unreliable observation produce true facts about the world? As Dykes observes:
We have been forbidden to regard as certain anything which we may think we know about facts: all knowledge is conjectural. We have been told that our senses are suspect and that all our observations are ‘theory impregnated’. We have been told that facts can’t be false: ‘false conjectures contradict some real state of affairs’. Yet, according to fallibilism, anything we can claim to ‘know’ has to be falsifiable. Even armed with Popper’s earlier distinction between ‘falsifiable’ and ‘falsification’, we are led to the seemingly inevitable conclusion that we can never know any facts. Similarly, we can never find out what is true. For if truth is correspondence with the facts, as Popper assured us, and we cannot know any facts, then we cannot know any truth.
I think that last sentence was meant to say: For if truth is correspondence with the facts, as Popper assured us, and we cannot know any truth, then we cannot know any facts. As an aside, there is also no way to discover the laws of nature.
“There is no road, royal or otherwise, which leads of necessity from a ‘given’ set of specific facts to any universal law” [OKN 359]; or that: “There can be no valid reasoning from singular observation statements to universal laws of nature” [RASC 32]
And BTW the idea that there is a world at all remains conjectural …
“The entities of the physical world — processes, forces, fields of forces — interact among one another, and therefore with material bodies. Thus we conjecture them to be real... even though their reality remains conjectural” [TSIB 36].
Origenes
CR, continuing, on theory laden observations etc, per your clip: >>Empiricism is the idea that all knowledge comes to us from the senses.>> 18: There is a world of difference between the empirical, observable and inductively inferred and empiricism, a particular school of thought, IOW, we will not be boxed into a strawman target. (ATTN FP, CD etc, notice the act of identifying WHY this is a weakened strawman assertion prone to be knocked over.) >>While this seemed like a good foundation roughly 100 years ago, when empiricism was conceived,>> 19: Not relevant to what is on the table. >> it turns out that sense impressions are actually complex things that are themselves, well, not observed. Right?>> 20: Yes, our sense impressions and extensions thereof via instruments and computing machines etc, are complex. However, does that not bring to bear here self-referentiality? 21: So, is this claim also an empirically founded claim, now tagged as subtly suspect and to be discredited itself? 22: We see here already, a logical criterion, one that points to self referential self defeat, the base for any objection rooted on complexity of observation is undermined. >>The idea that our senses relay accurate information to us>> 23: Are we, the hoi polloi, to be swept away with the dismissal "idea" -- translating to a euphemism for "[suspect] notion"? Do you see here how selectively hyperskeptical elitism has crept in? 24: And how if we remove that invited sneer, we are back at self referential self defeat crouching at the door? >> depends on a long chain>> 25: Not at all, just experience of reliability, even with limitations such as pitch vs frequency, colour and shape distortion, etc etc. The rejection of the general soundness of the confident reliance on one's body of personal experience and that of our race, leads to self-defeat. 26: We cannot even rely on our eyes to reasonably reliably perceive the text before us! Privileging hyperskepticism goes a fatal step too far. >> of hard to vary>> 27: Hard to vary is an evasive circumlocution for, warrant, insofar as it has any credibility. >> explanatory theories. >> 28: The hyperskeptical elitism, again. No, no elaborate theorising is required, just experience based confidence, the fact of common sense induction, particularly the abduction of trust in our senses, basic cognitive powers and common good sense. >>IOW, this is what I mean when I say “observations are theory laden.”>> 29: Instead, observations MAY be theory laden, using theory in the sense of abstract schema of the sciences. For instance, 30: my glasses embed optical theories up to aspherical lens optics, my digital calipers embed a lot of electronics, as do my various multimeters and electronic oscilloscope, even a galvanometer based instrument such as the old AVOmeter embeds Ohm's law in its various scales, as well as depending on Hooke's law to calibrate linearity of deflection with torque. 31: For good cause, I trust the lot. 32: We here see how at both common sense and technological levels, it is vital to recognise the legitimacy of inductive reasoning and intuition, also, respect for the common person. >>So, empiricism>> 33: The strawman target is about to be knocked over. >> rules itself out>> 34: Actually, empiricism as given is itself a view that does not comport well with experience, we have knowledge that goes beyond experience, individual or collective. However, even Wikipedia tells us the matter is more complicated:
In philosophy, empiricism is an epistemological theory that holds that knowledge or justification comes only or primarily from sensory experience.[1] It is one of several views within epistemology, along with rationalism and skepticism. Empiricism emphasizes the central role of empirical evidence in the formation of ideas, rather than innate ideas or traditions.[2] However, empiricists may argue that traditions (or customs) arise due to relations of previous sensory experiences.[3] Historically, empiricism was associated with the "blank slate" concept (tabula rasa), according to which the human mind is "blank" at birth and develops its thoughts only through experience.[4] Empiricism in the philosophy of science emphasizes evidence, especially as discovered in experiments. It is a fundamental part of the scientific method that all hypotheses and theories must be tested against observations of the natural world rather than resting solely on a priori reasoning, intuition, or revelation.
35: Much knowledge is experiential, and that can and does include the miraculous or revelatory. In addition, what is a process of careful analysis but an experience, one that comes from our interior life not accesible to others but which we credit by recognising those who are as we are? And more. 36: While we are at it, genetically engineering hawthorns to bear strawberry guavas would be a change of core characteristics, thus of identity. Distinct identity remains as a valid recognition of the logic of being. 37: In that context, the law of excluded middle and non contradiction are corollaries. 38: Stable distinct identity would readily account for observable regularities, founding both laws of mathematics and laws of nature that would then be observable as strongly stamped patterns. >> by nature of being>> 39: Another self-referentiality case, you tried to dismiss identity but now appeal to nature. >> a contradiction. >> 40: Empiricism as defines was itself a strawman of empiricism, which in turn is factually inadequate rather than self contradictory. For example, what is the sense experiential, observational basis for the unique null set we refer to as { } ? From this we can build a core of Mathematics via von Neumann. 41: Overall, the proposed arguments to demolish an updated, property of the common people driven understanding of knowledge, fail. As shown here in skeletal outline. 42: At least, this is a substantial contribution and helps us see the trouble we are in as a civilisation, CR therefore helps us move the game forward. KF kairosfocus
I don't know much Popper, but from what's being reported here about his views, I should give him some serious consideration. I agree with three major themes that have been ascribed to him: (1) scientific explanations are not based upon inductive generalizations, though inductive generalizations comprise most of our everyday empirical knowledge. (2) there are no theory-free observations, since any observation uses a conceptual framework that has been acquired as one's second nature; (3) the capacity for apprehending universals is a consequence of language, not a prior requirement for it. Hume's "problem of induction" is of independent philosophical interest, but I suspect that it relies upon his phenomenenalism (that what we immediately experience is our own sensory states or "qualia"). He conceives of sense-experience as a succession of sensory states. This makes experience something that we passively observe. not as something that we do or undergo. There is no room in his theory of experience for the role of feedback loops, wherein what we do in the world affects what we sense of the world, and conversely. Hume's theory of experience is not about what one does with one's body in the world; it is the passive and detached contemplation in which one notices the pattern of one's mental states. I do not mean to disparage Hume's theory of experience in characterizing it this way. It is a fascinating amalgam of deep mindfulness meditation and bourgeois male privilege. It seems plausible to me that he would have gotten much closer to the truth if he had observed his mental states as he prepared his own meals, washed his own clothes, and repaired his own furniture and housing. But, I think that bringing embodiment and environment into focus as components of cognition does show us how to avoid phenomenalism, and with that, the problem of induction (as Hume formulated it) goes away. That allows for induction to be a good-enough form of reasoning for everyday knowledge -- but I would agree with Popper that most everyday empirical knowledge is just inductive generalization, and not genuine explanation. Slightly off-topic, but related: I recently read Erik Larson's The Myth of Artificial Intelligence in which abduction -- or guessing -- is central to the account of why AGI is currently impossible. As Larson sees it, we know how to automate deductive reasoning: computers have been doing that since the 1950s. And the rise of machine learning has basically automated inductive reasoning. But what we don't know how to do is automate abductive reasoning. And since we don't know how to do that (and I suspect that it is actually impossible), AGI is impossible. (Larson claims that we don't know how to do it because we don't have a theory of abductive reasoning. I think that's not quite right: cognitive science actually does give us a theory of abductive reasoning, and it follow from that theory that abductive reasoning cannot be automated.) I mention Larson because he is, like Popper (?) and like Peirce, a champion of the importance of abductive reasoning for our ability to go beyond mere induction, and construct genuine explanations of phenomena -- explanations that allow us to solve problems. Put otherwise: if our common sense were based solely on inductive generalizations, then machine learning would be a sure-fire way to achieve AGI. PyrrhoManiac1
CR, I respond on points: >>Knowledge is not justified, true belief.>> 1: No-one has sought to define knowledge as justified, true belief, as a clue, consider the import of "warrant" in this context, given Gettier, Plantinga and others. 2: This immediately suggests, with all due respect, you are misreading what is being raised. >>– For some a to justified by b, then b must be justified, by some c, which must be justified by some d, etc.>> 3: The Agrippa trilemma has responsible resolution. For, there are self evident truths, there are canons of logic, there are reasonable alternative worldview frames and there is comparative difficulties analysis across factual adequacy, coherence and explanatory power. Not to mention, that 4: there are different degrees of knowledge, a concept that belongs to the people, where warrant is objective, credible truth (thus, reliability). thus it includes that there is openness to correction, and belief means that at least one responsible person must accept. 5: That you raise this as a first claimed substantiation suggests that you have misframed us and the arguments above. >>– Knowledge is not true because all ideas are incomplete and contain errors to some degree.>> 6: Both hyperskeptical and self defeating, ending in, there is no knowledge of truth. 7: For instance, kindly tell us what is erroneous in 3 + 2 = 5, or ||| + || --> |||||. This counts as a sufficient counter example, and already, error exists and knowledge is possible etc are all true and undeniable on pain of immediate absurdity. 8: Indeed, the self-referential issue makes " Knowledge is not true because all ideas are incomplete and contain errors to some degree" instantly defeat itself: is this a member of "all"? Yes, so, extend the consequence you propose: "all ideas are incomplete and contain errors to some degree" -- instant self destruction. 9: We thus know it to be false. >>– Knowledge is not belief because it exists in brains, books and even the genomes of living things.>> 10: Knowledge-bearing information is recorded in brains, books and genomes etc, which is different from what knowledge is as a state of affairs of beings able to know, but who in many cases may be mistaken or ignorant instead. >>Everyone knows knowledge is justified true belief isn’t an argument.>> 11: There actually are people who do think so, but never mind. 12: This was not posed above, certainly not in the OP. Certainly, not by Willard and heirs, who I endorsed with one noted adjustment as assurance could be taken in ways that cannot be defended. >>Nor is we traditionaly define knowledge as justified true belief, etc.>> 13: There is a traditional position, which latterly led to an internalism vs externalism debate with Gettier as a key exhibit, and more contrived issues such as grue. It was a summary of a view, and the issue of being internally justified but objectively unwarranted opened up a new era. 14: The issue above is that knowledge is a property of the people, not an esoteric circle of highly refined hyperskeptics. 15: In that context, it is clear that a reasonable view becomes, knowledge is warranted, which captures any good hard to criticise has in it. There is good reason to hold it credibly true and reliable. And, it is thus know-ABLE. 16: What is know-ABLE, becomes known, thus knowledge, when someone takes it as such, i.e. believes it. (I here leave off the related but distinct issue of skills.) 17: As warrant comes in degrees, so does knowledge, in certain cases beyond possibility of error, in others no knower can deny without absurdity, in others, a weak everyday sense holds, where some things are open to correction but absent such are reliable enough to bet the farm. KF kairosfocus
CR
Deutsch: “And since inductivism is false, empiricism must be as well."
Question: is Deutsch's theory about inductivism mere unjustifiable conjecture? Is it "fallible", like every other theory? Can we just ignore what he is saying, or are we dealing with a "metacontext"? And how about his claim that empiricism is false? Is it safe to ignore as unjustifiable conjecture, or should we pay attention because this is also a "metacontext"? Your advice, please. Origenes
Already addressed. But, to again quote Deutsch...
“And since inductivism is false, empiricism must be as well. For if one cannot derive predictions from experience, one certainly cannot derive explanations. Discovering a new explanation is inherently an act of creativity. To interpret dots in the sky as white-hot, million-kilometre spheres, one must first have thought of the idea of such spheres. And then one must explain why they look small and cold and seem to move in lockstep around us and do not fall down. Such ideas do not create themselves, nor can they be mechanically derived from anything: they have to be guessed – after which they can be criticized and tested. To the extent that experiencing dots ‘writes’ something into our brains, it does not write explanations but only dots. Nor is nature a book: one could try to ‘read’ the dots in the sky for a lifetime – many lifetimes – without learning anything about what they really are.” “Historically, that is exactly what happened. For millennia, most careful observers of the sky believed that the stars were lights embedded in a hollow, rotating ‘celestial sphere’ centred on the Earth (or that they were holes in the sphere, through which the light of heaven shone). This geocentric – Earth-centred – theory of the universe seemed to have been directly derived from experience, and repeatedly confirmed: anyone who looked up could ‘directly observe’ the celestial sphere, and the stars maintaining their relative positions on it and being held up just as the theory predicts. ”
And let's not forget my response, here, which you have yet to respond to.
What do I mean by contradictory? Here’s a few examples…. Empiricism is the idea that all knowledge comes to us from the senses. While this seemed like a good foundation roughly 100 years ago, when empiricism was conceived, it turns out that sense impressions are actually complex things that are themselves, well, not observed. Right? The idea that our senses relay accurate information to us depends on a long chain of hard to vary explanatory theories. IOW, this is what I mean when I say “observations are theory laden.” So, empiricism rules itself out by nature of being a contradiction.
critical rationalist
Alan Fox writes:
He may have done and I’ve missed it but I doubt he would have received the courtesy to which he thinks himself entitled and demands here while dishing out ad homs to critics with gay abandon.
You are walking on thin ice raising the subject of homosexuality on this site. :) Ford Prefect
CR
Theory aways comes first.
You are a Popperian through and through. Dykes also refutes this weird idea:
Popper’s notion that “theories come before observation” [TSIB 134] perhaps needs more detail to make it explicit. Popper spelled it out clearly a second time in The Self and Its Brain: “Our senses should be regarded as auxiliaries to our brain. The brain in turn is programmed to select a fitting and relevant model (or theory or hypothesis) of our environment, as we move along, to be interpreted by the mind” [TSIB 91]. Again: “All observations (and even more all experiments) are theory impregnated: they are interpretations in the light of theories. We observe only what our problems, our biological situation, our interests, our expectations, and our action programmes, make relevant. Just as our observational instruments are based upon theories, so are our very sense organs without which we cannot observe” [TSIB 134]. These statements echo Popper’s blunt observation in Unended Quest that “there is no such thing as an unprejudiced observation” [UNQ 51]. They are reminiscent of something he wrote long before in The Poverty of Historicism: “neither the dryness nor the remoteness of a topic of natural science prevent partiality and self-interest from interfering with the individual scientist’s beliefs... if we had to depend on his detachment, science, even natural science, would be quite impossible” [POH 155]. The implications of all this for objectivity appear drastic. By saying that “theories come before observations”, is Popper asking us to accept that the heliocentric theory came before observation of perturbations in planetary orbits? Or that insect-eating plants were surmised before Darwin happened to examine sundews? Or that we start thinking about things before having any awareness of them? Such questions are admittedly bizarre but, prima facie, they do seem to be legitimate reactions to equally bizarre pronouncements. This was not the only time Popper appeared to see things back to front. Discussing the evolution of the human brain, he wrote about “the emerging human language which created the selection pressure under which the cerebral cortex emerged, and with it the human consciousness of self” [TSIB 30]. This seems to be a development of an earlier ‘conjecture’ that: “it is human language which is responsible for the peculiarities of man” [UNQ 140].71 These idiosyncratic points of view may be due to Popper’s affection for Lamarck [e.g. RASC 94, TSIB 425]. However, I doubt very much if Lamarck would have believed that human language, which is based on concepts, on universals, could have developed prior to that distinctive ‘peculiarity of man’ — his conceptual faculty — which actually produces concepts. Although bold indeed, such a conjecture’ would do more than put the cart before the horse: it would put the cart before the caveman and the horse before the dinosaur.
http://nicholasdykes.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/philn037.pdf Origenes
We the little people know nothing, we do not even know that the sun will come up tomorrow.
This is also addressed above, in regards to Hawthorns. But, to address this directly, It’s our explanations of how the world works that indicates what we will experience. For example, if our long chain of independently obtained explanations for how our sun works indicated it would suddenly grow cold and collapse when its fuel supply is exhausted and that will occur in roughly 4.6 billon billion years after it was formed, we wouldn’t expect the sun to rise tomorrow despite having experienced it rising every day for the entirety of human existence. Right? We explain the sun’s surface via its core, which we cannot actually observe. In reality, we think the sun’s core burns hydrogen, and has enough fuel to last last another 5.4 billions years. At which time, it will exit its main sequence and become a red giant, rather than explode in a supernova. The idea that the sun will rise tomorrow is base on our theories about how stars work etc., in reality, not what experiences we will have over and over again. Furthermore, the very idea that something has been repeated is not a sensory experience. Theory aways comes first. For example, theories of optics and geometry tell us not to experience seeing the sun rise on a cloudy day, even if a sunrise is really happening in the unobserved world behind the clouds. Again, we thought this long before we could fly above the clouds, though theory. It’s only though theory that not observing the sun in those cases does not constitute an instance of the sun not rising. And the same can be said if we observe the sun rising in a mirror or on video. It’s those same theories of optics and geometry that tells us we’re not experiencing the sun rise multiple times, that there are not multiple suns, etc. To quote Deutsch...
“First, inductivism purports to explain how science obtains predictions about experiences. But most of our theoretical knowledge simply does not take that form. Scientific explanations are about reality, most of which does not consist of anyone’s experiences. Astrophysics is not primarily about us (what we shall see if we look at the sky), but about what stars are: their composition and what makes them shine, and how they formed, and the universal laws of physics under which that happened. Most of that has never been observed: no one has experienced a billion years, or a light year; no one could have been present at the Big Bang; no one will ever touch a law of physics – except in their minds, through theory. All our predictions of how things will look are deduced from such explanations of how things are. So inductivism fails even to address how we can know about stars and the universe, as distinct from just dots in the sky.”
critical rationalist
You mean the... "a lot of stuff on Hume’s position on induction, not Popper’s", mentioned above? Popper's solution to the problem of indiction is not Hume's solution. Get back to me when you've read the referenced article. critical rationalist
Dykes quoting Popper on Hume
According to Popper, Hume had shown that: “there is no argument of reason which permits an inference from one case to another... and I completely agree” [OKN 96]. Elsewhere he referred to induction as “a myth” which had been “exploded” by Hume [UNQ 80]. He further asserted that “every rule of inductive inference ever proposed by anybody would, if anyone were to use it, lead to... frequent practical mistakes.... There is no rule of inductive inference — inference leading to theories or universal laws — ever proposed which can be taken seriously even for a minute” [UNQ 146-7]. In a more detailed presentation, Popper wrote: “Hume tried to show (in my opinion successfully, as far as logic goes).... that any inductive inference — any reasoning from singular and observable cases (and their repeated occurrence) to anything like regularities or laws — must be invalid.... [we] cannot validly reason from the known to the unknown, or from what has been experienced to what has not been experienced.... [No] matter how often the sun has been observed regularly to rise and to set, even the greatest number of observed instances does not constitute... a positive reason for the regularity, or the law, of the sun’s rising and setting. Thus it can neither establish this law nor make it probable...” [RASC 31].
http://nicholasdykes.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/philn037.pdf We the little people know nothing, we do not even know that the sun will come up tomorrow. Origenes
CR, :lemon: Andrew asauber
It appears you merely looked for references that suited your purpose. Why am I not supprised? From A Refutation of Nicholas Dykes on Karl Popper.
Dykes on Hume, whose anti-induction ideas Popper adopted:
There then follows a lot of stuff on Hume’s position on induction, not Popper’s. Popper had many arguments against induction that Hume didn’t give him and took those arguments more seriously than Hume. Dykes does not address most of the arguments Popper provided.
You seem to have been misled by Dykes. On to the law of identity.....
This argument doesn’t solve the problem at all. The problem of induction as stated by Hume is that our expectations of the future don’t follow from what we have observed in the past. To see why let’s take Dykes’ example of the hawthorn, which he claims will not produce grapes. How does he know it won’t produce grapes? Perhaps some scientist will genetically engineer hawthorns to produce grapes. And even if he doesn’t the fact that it won’t produce grapes doesn’t follow merely from the fact that it hasn’t in the past. To put this in Dykes’ language, if we were to accept that existence implies identity that would not tell us the identity of any specific entity. And indeed characterising the issue as being about the identity of the object in question is a bad way to think about it. Whatever the thing in question is we need an explanation of how it works to say what it will do next and why. And we won’t be able to tell what we can predict about the entity in question without such an account. Why do hawthorn bushes not produce grapes? That has to do with a complicated set of circumstances in its evolutionary past that selected against hawthorns producing relatively large fleshy fruit and refers to lots of things that are not hawthorn bushes, like human beings who did not selectively breed hawthorn bushes to get them to grow grapes. Stating this theory in terms of definitions would make it less clear because the explanation involves tying together many different entities and so the whole explanation would have to be repeated many times in slightly different ways. Note also that Dykes’ approach to creating knowledge amounts to defining terms in the right way: that is, to the idea of methodological essentialism that I criticized in my comments on Section 1.
All observations are theory laden...
It is not true that the fact that our senses are theory-laden implies that we are cut off from objective reality. More broadly the problem is this: all sources of knowledge are flawed in some respects, so how can we ever learn anything? First, knowledge can have implications beyond the problem that it was invented to solve. Our eyes can be used to do things they did not evolve to do like looking at readings on scientific instruments: they are limited by the content of the knowledge instantiated in them not by the problem they originally evolved to solve. Second, what counts is not whether any particular piece of information we get is flawed. Rather, what matters is whether we can correct those flaws. We can do this by comparing different sources and trying to come up with an explanation of the underlying objective reality that explains what all of the sources say. They will not all be flawed in the same way and so we can try to work out which ones are giving us bad information on any particular issue. (See “On the Sources of Knowledge and of Ignorance” Section XIII onward in “Conjectures and Refutations” and Chapter 1 of Objective Knowledge). Dykes never mentions this argument let alone addresses it.
On conjecture not being knowledge....
In this section, Dykes plays a sort of verbal game saying that conjecture is not knowledge because conjecture means “an opinion formed on slight or defective evidence or none: an opinion without proof: a guess.” Popper does think all of our knowledge consists of unproven guesses. Dykes is not satisfied with this but logically it is no different than the problem that all sources of information are flawed and so it does not need a distinct answer from the one given in the previous section.
There is more, but these seem the most relevant. critical rationalist
@KF
CR, again, the issue is responsible warrant,
Yes. That is the issue. Warrant, credence, etc. Are all ideas we can dispose of. Knowledge is not justified, true belief. - For some a to justified by b, then b must be justified, by some c, which must be justified by some d, etc. - Knowledge is not true because all ideas are incomplete and contain errors to some degree. - Knowledge is not belief because it exists in brains, books and even the genomes of living things. Everyone knows knowledge is justified true belief isn't an argument. Nor is we traditionaly define knowledge as justified true belief, etc. critical rationalist
Kairosfocus @
... knowledge is a concept that belongs to the people ...
You are onto something profound here. We normal people do not know anything? Do we not know that the thorn will produce red berries? Dykes on Hume, whose anti-induction ideas Popper adopted.
Hume stated, in essence, that since all ideas are derived from experience we cannot have any ideas about future events — which have yet to be experienced. He therefore denied that the past can give us any information about the future. He further denied that there is any necessary connection between cause and effect. We experience only repeated instances, we cannot experience any “power” that actually causes events to take place. Events are entirely “loose and separate.... conjoined but never connected”.42 According to Hume, then, I have no guarantee that the hawthorn in my hedge will not bear grapes this autumn. Or, should I prefer figs, the thistles in a nearby field are just as likely to provide them as my neighbour’s figtree, for aught any one can tell. My expectation that the thorn will produce red berries, and the thistle those purple flowers so loved by my Scottish ancestors, is merely the result of “regular conjunction” which induces a subjective “inference of the understanding”.43 In the gospel of St David, there is no such thing as identity, there is only “custom” or “habit”. However, Hume also wrote: “When any opinion leads to absurdities, it is certainly false.”44 And the idea that one might gather grapes of thorns or figs of thistles is surely absurd enough to qualify. And false is what Hume’s opinions most certainly are. Left standing, they lead to what he himself called “the flattest of all contradictions, viz. that it is possible for the same thing both to be and not to be”. 45 The crux of the case against Hume was succinctly stated in 1916 by H.W.B. Joseph in his great work An Introduction to Logic: “A thing, to be at all, must be something, and can only be what it is. To assert a causal connexion between a and x implies that a acts as it does because it is what it is; because, in fact, it is a. So long therefore as it is a, it must act thus; and to assert that it may act otherwise on a subsequent occasion is to assert that what is a is something else than the a which it is declared to be.”46 Hume’s whole argument — eloquent and elaborate though it may be — is, as Joseph implied in his drily precise way, “in flat conflict with the Law of Identity”.47
http://nicholasdykes.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/philn037.pdf Origenes
KF How about this. Popper has been dead for thirty years and no one is buying his falsification theory any longer. I particularly enjoyed the quote from Dirac…… (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-idea-that-a-scientific-theory-can-be-falsified-is-a-myth/) chuckdarwin
CR, again, the issue is responsible warrant, recognising that knowledge is a concept that belongs to the people and that it comes in degrees, with a relatively few undeniably true things, a great many others are well warranted but open to correction, especially empirical matters. The privileging of hyperskepticism in our civilisation has led to chaos and should be corrected. KF kairosfocus
AF, just think of what has already been done to target me (and others who have dared to publicly support ID) over the years, since you chose to get personal: online cyberstalking and slander, on the ground stalking, stalking of relatives at degrees of remove (including minors), attempts to kill employment, going to other sites to attack behind the back and more, even hacking attempts. That speaks volumes and especially so when the balance on merits clearly favours [1] the design inference in general and [2] the observation that it is an evidence backed consensus that the living cell contains string data structure, symbolic, coded algorithmic information. I suggest the ongoing push to pull this thread off focus speaks for itself. Could we now return to substance? KF kairosfocus
Again, it is a truth easily accessible to anyone. Unlike Pythagoras, or an even more profound truth like cogito ergo sum. I try to take the reader into consideration. So, any reader could find 2+2=4 in error, unlike Pythagoras, or an even more profound truth like cogito ergo sum?
CR, I have no problem with scrutinizing propositions.
I don’t recall suggesting you were incapable of or uncomfortable being a fallibilist. Rather, attempting to think of ways a proposition might be wrong reflects criticism of that proposition. That’s fallibilism. Choosing to call it scrutiny seems to be a matter of semantics and just muddies the waters.
For instance, I do not ascribe to the self-contradictory idea that “all knowledge remains conjectural”
2+2=4, of all things, has been around for thousands of years. So, yet you apparently questioned it at least sometime within the last century.
You do not paraphrase my main criticism of fallibilism, I argue that is based on self-contradictory ideas
Being based on self-contradictory ideas is not a way that fallibilism could be wrong? Huh? Also see #54. Furthermore...
At the time we had no good criticisms of Pythagoras theory. That is, until general relativity. In which case the angles may not always add up to exactly 180 degrees due to the warping of space.
critical rationalist
CR, at this stage, it is pretty clear that the point in the OP needs to be seriously faced. Once you are willing to acknowledge that knowledge belongs to the people, not an esoteric tiny circle, it will be obvious that a weak sense is valid and that scientific knowledge is on that side. Origenes has underscored some fairly serious concerns about self referential incoherence in several Popper clips. Some, with adjustment can be saved, some are just hopeless. Empirically founded, inductively supported knowledge is rationally defensible, and in particular it is a responsible view to hold that knowledge is warranted, credibly true (so, reliable) belief. Popperian falsificationism, associated critical rationalism and the sometimes seen resort to hyper skepticism fail. KF kairosfocus
CD, we recognise the tactics, down to now scare quotes. I assume you have done some basic logic so if you are willing you can readily verify the substantial corrections. If not, trying to use scare quotes is itself a further example of the problem, compounded with gaslighting. But then, this is probably just for record, KF kairosfocus
Andrew at 75, In regards to a few here, I think that's the highest... uh... something. :) relatd
CD, Thou sayeth: "nastier and repetitive" High praise? Andrew asauber
CD at 73, "endless entertainment" Yes, well, here, it's a two-way street. relatd
Asauber/68 Who said anything about not liking it? Why would we leave a website that supplies endless entertainment--for free? chuckdarwin
Andrew at 71, Yes. Yes we do. relatd
"Nice try. But, like used car salesman, they have to show up every day to sell their product." Relatd, We need a lemon emoji, so we can invoke Lemon Laws. Andrew asauber
Andrew at 68, Nice try. But, like used car salesmen, they have to show up every day to sell their product. relatd
CR @64
So, there was no reason why you picked 2+2=4? Was it random?
Again, it is a truth easily accessible to anyone. Unlike Pythagoras, or an even more profound truth like cogito ergo sum. I try to take the reader into consideration.
This does not conflict with Origenes having [criticized each of the candidate propositions] by “[thinking] of ways or reasons they might have been conceivably false.” IOW, Origenes would be a fine example of a practicing fallibilist. 2+2=4 can be also be conveniently reformulated as 2*2=4. 2+3 cannot. That’s another conceivable way 2+2=4 could be found in error. Right? The very process of attempting to conceive of ways any proposition can be found wrong reflects an example of criticizing them in relation to each other.
CR, I have no problem with scrutinizing propositions. For instance, I do not ascribe to the self-contradictory idea that “all knowledge remains conjectural”; see #47 and #51. That does not make me a fallibilist.
IOW, you seem to be a fine example of a practicing fallibilist, even when it comes to 2+2=4. And, this is the same cases, in regards to fallibilism itself. To paraphrase, “If fallibilism is true, then what of 2+2=4 or Pythagoras?” IOW, Origenes is criticizing fallibilism by proposing ways that fallibilism could be false. This is fallibilism at work.
You do not paraphrase my main criticism of fallibilism, I argue that is based on self-contradictory ideas; see #47 and #51. Origenes
My advice to those who don't like UD, and still devote a lot time and effort into not liking it: Go away. Andrew asauber
I’ve never seen KF post in an environment he couldn’t control. He may have done and I’ve missed it but I doubt he would have received the courtesy to which he thinks himself entitled and demands here while dishing out ad homs to critics with gay abandon.
I constantly criticize Kf. I also thank him for some new concepts that I have learned. In the 17 years I have been commenting here, there has been only one anti ID commenter that ever contributed anything positive. I wonder why? What type of person is it that can only contribute nonsense or negativity but nothing constructive.? jerry
"I’ve only followed this blog for about a year, but even in that short of time, it has gotten noticeably nastier and repetitive" CD, Coincidence? ;) Andrew asauber
I think you are right–this is the only rodeo in town left for ID
If that were true and it’s not true, what would that make the commenters whose only objective is to mock a dying entity.
2+2=4 can be also be convenient reformulated as 2*2=4. 2+3 cannot. That’s another conceivable way 2+2=4 could be found in error. Right?
Apparently you didn’t get the memo. 2+2 = 4 is a definition. Also multiplication is addition. It is fast addition which is why it’s so useful. jerry
@Origenes #61
If I had chosen another self-evident truth would you then be asking why I had chosen that particular one?
So, there was no reason why you picked 2+2=4? Was it random?
Why is this question relevant?
You must have missed it in #52
This does not conflict with Origenes having [criticized each of the candidate propositions] by “[thinking] of ways or reasons they might have been conceivably false.” IOW, Origenes would be a fine example of a practicing fallibilist.
Perhaps you can provide some other explanation? How else did you end up with 2+2=4 instead of 2+3=5? off The top of my head, 2+2=4 can be also be conveniently reformulated as 2*2=4. 2+3 cannot. That's another conceivable way 2+2=4 could be found in error. Right? The very process of attempting to conceive of ways any proposition can be found wrong reflects an example of criticizing them in relation to each other. However, I just came up with that off the top of my head. IOW, you seem to be a fine example of a practicing fallibilist, even when it comes to 2+2=4. And, this is the same cases, in regards to fallibilism itself.
To paraphrase, “If fallibilism is true, then what of 2+2=4 or Pythagoras?” IOW, Origenes is criticizing fallibilism by proposing ways that fallibilism could be false. This is fallibilism at work.
critical rationalist
CD at 62, Gosh... relatd
AF I think you are right--this is the only rodeo in town left for ID and I think the broncs and bulls are getting tired. I've only followed this blog for about a year, but even in that short of time, it has gotten noticeably nastier and repetitive with a lot of interesting commenters drifting off.... chuckdarwin
CR @60 If I had chosen another self-evident truth would you then be asking why I had chosen that particular one?
But, even then, this is also true in the case of 2+3=5. So, why is 2+3=5 not the shining example you use consistently? If it is equally as a much as shining example, then why don’t you eventually end up selecting it?
Are we descending into psychology now? Why is this question relevant? Origenes
@Origines See #52.
Because 2+2=4 is conveniently confirmable by observing one’s fingers. In this context, 2+3=5 is a solid alternative.
As opposed to all of the other possible candidates that could not be confirmable by observing one’s fingers? To rephrase, one way that 2+2=4 could be found in error is that you could conveniently count up with your fingers and have it end up with something other than 4. This is in contrast to other candidates could not. Right? But, even then, this is also true in the case of 2+3=5. So, why is 2+3=5 not the shining example you use consistently? If it is equally as a much as shining example, then why don't you eventually end up selecting it? Again It's unclear how this does not reflect you yourself being a fine example of a practicing fallibilist.
It is certainly consistent with how we experience the world.
You being a practicing fallibilist is not inconsistent with how we experience the world. If you think it is, then you seem to be confused about fallibilism. critical rationalist
Given what Popper says about the nature of philosophy and the nature of science in Conjectures and Refutations, I am skeptical that there is any easy version of argument that shows that Popper exempts himself from critical standards that he applies to others. His views are not self-undermining or self-defeating. It might very well be the case that Popper's views do not actually succeed by his own standards, but that's a different issue. @56
It is certainly consistent with how we experience the world.
Sure, but that tells us nothing about what justifies the assertion. All of us use the concepts we've acquired to understand the world as we experience it, and that holds true for "2+2=4" as much as it does for "most swans are white". Yet those assertions are justified in different ways, which is the whole point of insisting on a distinction between a priori and a posteriori here. Consider the alternative: suppose we give up on the a priori/a posteriori distinction. We could do this either by insisting that all knowledge is a priori and that everything based on experience is just opinion (if not colossal delusion). Or we could do that by insisting that all knowledge is a posteriori, and that even logic and mathematics could be revised in light of experience, just as "all swans are white" was revised in light of the discovery (to Europeans) of black swans. I hope I am not alone in finding both options unacceptable. Nevertheless, we do of course use the assertion "2+2=4" to do work in the world as we experience it, but that does not confirm the assertion, because it is an a priori truth -- it is logically entailed by the axioms of arithmetic. 2+2=4 would be equally justified in any world where no one had invented the practice of counting. To be sure, the axioms of arithmetic would probably not be discoverable in a world where there were no cognitive beings, or if the cognitive beings were mere spectators incapable of action, or if the actions they were capable of did not require them to distinguish between more than one thing of a certain kind, etc. We can certainly specify what a world must be like in order for the axioms of arithmetic to be discoverable by beings in that world. But that is categorically distinct from what justifies the axioms, since the axioms are said to hold in all possible worlds, regardless of whether they are discoverable by being in that world or not -- that's just what it means to say that they are necessary truths, not contingent truths. PyrrhoManiac1
For crying out loud, no one is trying to silence or marginalize your “corrections.” You could, however, be a little less pedantic about the whole thing…….
I've never seen KF post in an environment he couldn't control. He may have done and I've missed it but I doubt he would have received the courtesy to which he thinks himself entitled and demands here while dishing out ad homs to critics with gay abandon. Don't get me wrong, I don't complain. Every tub stands on its own bottom and any website can set and enforce its own standards of participation. At least token participation by some ID skeptics is currently tolerated here. I think this is the last pro-ID site I know of now. The crankiness and downtime make me wonder if it may not be for much longer. There's no new generation of ID-proponent youngsters ready to replace the old guard. Alan Fox
KF For crying out loud, no one is trying to silence or marginalize your "corrections." You could, however, be a little less pedantic about the whole thing....... chuckdarwin
CR @
CR: How did you come to choose that particular proposition as a candidate for immunity from criticism? Why 2+2=4 instead of, say, 3+4, the theorem of Pythagoras or all swans are white?
I have already answered this question. I will copy and paste my previous answer here:
Ori: Because 2+2=4 is conveniently confirmable by observing one’s fingers. In this context, 2+3=5 is a solid alternative.
PM1@
PM1: I would conjecture that Origenes likes this example because it illustrates the distinction between a priori and a posteriori assertions. Whatever justifies the assertion that 2+2=4, it is not going to be anything about how we experience the world.
It is certainly consistent with how we experience the world. Origenes
"Or half-a-bee. (Monty Python prompt if anyone cares.)." Eric. Andrew asauber
What we see here is a position on positions. A position that states that no position can be positively justified. Applied to itself, it undercuts itself and runs into humiliating self-contradiction. However, I am sure that we will be told that it cannot be applied to itself …. First, you mean like ID cannot be applied to ID's designer? Cleary, you understand the concept. Second, to quote Popper?
The question about the sources of our knowledge . . . has always been asked in the spirit of: ‘What are the best sources of our knowledge—the most reliable ones, those which will not lead us into error, and those to which we can and must turn, in case of doubt, as the last court of appeal?’ I propose to assume, instead, that no such ideal sources exist—no more than ideal rulers—and that all ‘sources’ are liable to lead us into error at times. And I propose to replace, therefore, the question of the sources of our knowledge by the entirely different question: ‘How can we hope to detect and eliminate error?’
Here, the term "propose" is explicitly used. Other times it is implied by, well, being a fallibilist. We first start with a problem, conjecture ideas of how to solve them, then try to find errors they contain. Not finding any errors does not positively justify them. They simply have held up better than other competing theories. As for the lack of justification...
Fallibilism, correctly understood, implies the possibility, not the impossibility, of knowledge, because the very concept of error, if taken seriously, implies that truth exists and can be found. The inherent limitation on human reason, that it can never find solid foundations for ideas, does not constitute any sort of limit on the creation of objective knowledge nor, therefore, on progress. The absence of foundation, whether infallible or probable, is no loss to anyone except tyrants and charlatans, because what the rest of us want from ideas is their content, not their provenance: If your disease has been cured by medical science, and you then become aware that science never proves anything but only disproves theories (and then only tentatively), you do not respond “oh dear, I’ll just have to die, then.”
Given that I've posted this quote multiple times, this is yet another example of wack-a-mole behavior. When one misconception is clarified, some other prior misconception is presented, etc. From another comment...
Of course this is no help for dogmatists who seek stronger reasons for belief, but that is a problem for them, not for exponents of critical preference.
IOW, as a justificationist, you're projecting your problem on me. critical rationalist
Jerry: other type of numbers are just mental abstracts and extremely useful for real world decisions. Arguably, when you append units to numbers then fractions become real values. Granted you can usually restate the value as a whole number under different units but that can get pretty silly. For example: if you lost half your arm in an accident there's not much point in defining a subunit of a arm so that you can refer to what you have left as so many whatevers when it's pretty clear what half-an-arm means. Or half-a-grapefruit. Or half-a-bee. (Monty Python prompt if anyone cares.). Also, some units (like moles) do not have the same physical (volume, pressure, etc) values from element to element so the idea of half-a-mole is pretty concrete once you specify the substance. Also I guess there's an argument for quarter-notes and eighth-notes in music. Not sure what the minimal unit of musical time would be . . . Don't think there is a sub-unit of temperature either, just degrees and fractions of degrees. JVL
I would conjecture that Origenes likes this example because it illustrates the distinction between a priori and a posteriori assertions. Whatever justifies the assertion that 2+2=4, it is not going to be anything about how we experience the world.
This does not conflict with Origenes having criticizing them by "[thinking] of ways or reasons they might have been conceivably false." IOW, Origenes would be a fine example of a practicing fallibilist. Another example? The original question... To paraphrase, "If fallibilism is true, then what of 2+2=4 or Pythagoras?" IOW, Origenes is criticizing fallibilism by proposing ways that it could be false. This is fallibilism at work. Just because we criticize an idea and the result is a lack of good criticisms, does this mean that criticism did not occur in the first place? No. It just means we currently lack good criticisms of that idea. Another example? Kant claimed that geometry is was a priori.
Kant associated geometric knowledge with the pure intuition of space; to know that an isosceles triangle (i.e. with two equal sides) has two equal angles at the base, the mathematician must produce a particular construction that makes the truth of the claim demonstrable,
At the time we had no good criticisms of Pythagoras theory. That is, until general relativity. In which case the angles may not always add up to exactly 180 degrees due to the warping of space. So, again, I'd suggest things like 2+2=4, Pythagoras theory, etc. do not reflect some special category. Rather they are ideas that, as of this very moment, we currently lack good criticism of. 2+2=4 is extremely hard to vary idea. critical rationalist
CR@48
According to the stance of critical preference no position can be positively justified but it is quite likely that one, (or some) will turn out to be better than others are in the light of critical discussion and tests.
What we see here is a position on positions. A position that states that no position can be positively justified. Applied to itself, it undercuts itself and runs into humiliating self-contradiction. However, I am sure that we will be told that it cannot be applied to itself ….
First, the stance of critical preference is not a position, it is a metacontext …
Aha. So, a position on positions is not a position, but a ‘metacontext’ instead. Does that mean that a metacontext, unlike a ‘position’, can be positively justified? Suppose an alternative metacontext on positions, one that says that some positions can be positively justified. What is the way forward here? Why would one accept the metacontext offered by critical rationalism over this alternative metacontext? Origenes
Whatever justifies the assertion that 2+2=4, it is not going to be anything about how we experience the world
it is a definition. The only numbers that exist in the real world are positive integers. We give a name to each. All been discussed before. As I said UD just goes in circles discussing the obvious. Or is it nonsense that is discussed. Hard to tell sometimes. Aside: other type of numbers are just mental abstracts and extremely useful for real world decisions. People often misinterpret usefulness for real. jerry
@46
How did you come to choose that particular proposition as a candidate for immunity from criticism? Why 2+2=4 instead of, say, 3+4, the theorem of Pythagoras or all swans are white? Was it because you decided that proposition would be the best to make your point because it was the most obvious, unambiguous truth of all you considered using?
I would conjecture that Origenes likes this example because it illustrates the distinction between a priori and a posteriori assertions. Whatever justifies the assertion that 2+2=4, it is not going to be anything about how we experience the world. I did find a nice passage on a priori knowledge in Conjectures and Refutations where he discusses Kant's criticism of Hume. It reminds me somewhat of Konrad Lorenz's physiological interpretation of the a priori. @47
But when directly confronted with the ominous threat of self-contradiction Popper changes his stance completely. On second thought, his cherished theory is, unlike all other theories, not falsifiable. His precious little theory is exempt from criticism after all:
I think that you are misreading Popper here. He is not saying that his account of science is exempt from criticism, only that is it exempt from the kind of criticism that is necessary for science, which is falsifiability. And it is exempt from that kind of criticism because his account of science is a philosophical account: he is not offering a scientific theory of what science is. To be entitled to this, he would need some distinction between philosophy and science. And indeed, this is precisely what he develops -- at least in Conjectures and Refutations, if not before. He suggests that the key difference between philosophical theories and scientific theories is that the former are irrefutable. This does not mean that they are exempt from criticism, but that they cannot be criticized in the same way that scientific theories are criticized. This raises the question, "by what criterion or standard shall a philosophical theory be criticized, if not empirical refutability?" And Popper's answer is: by how well the theory solves the problem that it was designed to solve, and whether there are better formulations of the problem, or solutions to it that have less unpalatable implications. For example, Kant's elaborate theory of the finite rational mind is designed to solve the problem of how to reconcile the determinism entailed by classical mechanics with the libertarianism presupposed by morality. We can ask if this problem should be taken seriously in light of 21st century science, and we can ask if Kant's solution to this problem is consistent with 21st century science (including cognitive science). I see no reason why we could not criticize Popper's theory by his own lights: what are the problems that his theory of science is intended to solve? Are those problems worth taking seriously? Are there solutions to those problems that make better sense to us? (If Popper himself would balk at being criticized in that way, so much the worse for him!) PyrrhoManiac1
From this essay on dogmatic 'true belief' framework of Western thought.
In the light of Bartley's ideas we can discern a number of possible attitudes towards positions, notably those of relativism, dogmatism (called “fideism” in the scholarly literature) and critical preference (or in Bartley's unfortunately clumsy language, “pancritical rationalism”.) Relativists tend to be disappointed dogmatists who realise that positive confirmation cannot be achieved. From this correct premise they proceed to the false conclusion that all positions are pretty much the same and none can really claim to be better than any other. There is no such thing as the truth, no way to get nearer to the truth and there is no such thing as a rational position. Fideists are people who believe that knowledge is based on an act of faith. Consequently they embrace whatever they want to regard as the truth. If they stop to think about it they may accept that there is no logical way to establish a positive justification for their beliefs or any others, so they insist that we make our choice regardless of reason: ”Here I stand!”. Most forms of rationalism up to date have, at rock bottom, shared this attitude with the irrationalists and other fundamentalists because they share the same 'true belief' structure of thought. According to the stance of critical preference no position can be positively justified but it is quite likely that one, (or some) will turn out to be better than others are in the light of critical discussion and tests. This type of rationality holds all its positions and propositions open to criticism and a standard objection to this stance is that it is empty; just holding our positions open to criticism provides no guidance as to what position we should adopt in any particular situation. This criticism misses its mark for two reasons. First, the stance of critical preference is not a position, it is a metacontext and as such it is not directed at solving the kind of problems that are solved by adopting a position on some issue or other. It is concerned with the way that such positions are adopted, criticised, defended and relinquished. Second, Bartley does provide guidance on adopting positions; we may adopt the position that to this moment has stood up to criticism most effectively. Of course this is no help for dogmatists who seek stronger reasons for belief, but that is a problem for them, not for exponents of critical preference.
I'm not a disappointed dogmatist, KF would like to paint me as. Of course, I've referenced and even quoted this several times before. Yet he continues to present the same false dilemma. What gives? critical rationalist
~Critical Rationalism is itself Beyond Criticism~ Popper on “all knowledge”:
“all knowledge is hypothetical” [OKN 30]; alternatively, “All knowledge remains... conjectural” [RASC xxxv]. In other passages it is “all theories” which are conjectural [eg OKN 80].
Is the ‘knowledge’ (or ‘theory’) that ‘all knowledge remains conjectural’ itself merely conjecture? IOW is Popper’s claim nothing but a self-contradictory blunder? Does the claim, applied to itself, undercut itself? Can we all just laugh about it (“what an idiot”) and move on? Popper himself seems to suggest that this is indeed the case when he writes:
“nothing is exempt from criticism... not even this principle of the critical method itself” [OSE2 379].
But when directly confronted with the ominous threat of self-contradiction Popper changes his stance completely. On second thought, his cherished theory is, unlike all other theories, not falsifiable. His precious little theory is exempt from criticism after all:
Dykes: In “Replies to my Critics” Popper attempted to deflect this line of questioning by resorting to his demarcation criterion: “my theory is not empirical, but methodological or philosophical, and it need not therefore be falsifiable. Falsifiability is a criterion of demarcation, not one of meaning” [PKP2 1010]. Eh? Admittedly, thirty years separate the two quotations, but defending fallibilism by implying that philosophy is not empirical? Dear me. Where is that going to take us? I mean, where did Popper get his facts about philosophy from? Besides, only a hundred or so pages later, he came right out and said he was an empiricist [PKP2 1121].34
So, e.g. Kuhn’s model of the growth of knowledge can be criticized and rejected, but that does not go for Popper’s critical rationalism. Here I share Dykes’s indignation. When cornered the true childish intent of hyper-skepticism reveals itself: all your knowledge is garbage, but mine is not. Your knowledge will be criticized forever and ever, but not mine. Origenes
I note here that the theory ‘all swans are white’ differs in kind from e.g. the theory that 2+2=4.
I’d note that you have for at least the third time picked 2+2=4 as a shining example of an absolute, axiomatic truth, that is immune from criticism. How did you come to choose that particular proposition as a candidate for immunity from criticism? Why 2+2=4 instead of, say, 3+4, the theorem of Pythagoras or all swans are white? Was it because you decided that proposition would be the best to make your point because it was the most obvious, unambiguous truth of all you considered using? How did you determine how obvious and unambiguous each of those candidate propositions were, compared to the others? Did you not think of ways or reasons they might have been conceivably false? Did you not, well, criticize them? critical rationalist
FP & CD, I suggest, you find a way to make a substantial contribution. Perhaps, you are unaware that the errors, fallacies and sometimes agit prop techniques we have corrected and pointed out substantially here at UD are in fact major and all too common problems in our day and age. The pointing out of these problematic approaches here at UD was not made up from whole cloth, the fallacies were identified on specific substance, for cause. And if you imagine that pretending that such concerns are groundless you can silence or marginalise their correction [so, letting such misbehaviour take over discussion and frustrate sound progress], you are sadly mistaken. Indeed beyond a point you will simply confirm to one and all that you are playing the irresponsible, destructive troll. KF kairosfocus
PM1, actually, structure and quantity has aspects that are part of the being of any world. The unique null set is relevant to any world, and the set that collects it etc will be just as unique, i.e. N is manifest in any world as part of its framework. From N we have ZQRCR* also, with all that such entails. These are part of the logic of being and shape possibilities by necessary relations including say 2 + 3 = 5, and of course the first Pythagorean triplet, 345, etc. As one consequence, when Young identified wave interference, an objection made was then the shadow of a small sphere should have a dot of light in its shadow's centre, which is silly. But someone checked, and the dot was indeed there, just tiny and easily overlooked. Similarly, at Copenhagen 1926, Einstein made an elaborate objection to uncertainty, only to end up inadvertently discovering a second major form, energy-time. And there are many other cases where logic of being expressed through structure and quantity has shown how it is framework to reality. KF kairosfocus
PM1/42 Excuse my presumption. I stand corrected....... chuckdarwin
@39
No one in the skeptic camp “despises” you or anyone else affiliated with ID, nor have I seen any remarks from skeptics and other non-IDers that would so suggest……
Eh, speak for yourself! I certainly do despise many people who also support some version of intelligent design. But I do not despise them because they support intelligent design. I despise them on other grounds; the fact that they also suppose ID has almost nothing to do with it. PyrrhoManiac1
@31 Agreed that the axiomization of a domain comes at the culmination of its development, but for those of us who distinguish between the logic of discovery and the logic of justification, this is not a huge problem. To prove that 2+2=4, we need to define some primitive notions, such as the concept of a set, membership in a set, succession, and identity. If we can define those, we can define the empty set as {}. And we can include a set that has the empty set as a member: {{}}. And since we can repeat that operation infinitely many times, we can easily generate all the integers, and some operations performed on the integers give us all the reals. With enough built into the definitions, it becomes possible to prove that
{{}}, {{}} is identical to {{{{}}}}
which becomes 2+2=4 with a use of a convenient notation. And while this is provably irreducible to first-order logic, thanks to Goedel, it has nothing to do with metaphysics or science, either. To say that mathematics concerns what must happen in any possible world (or a class of possible worlds) is to add a metaphysical gloss to a set-theoretic result. We can say that mathematics studies different kinds of formal structures, and leave it as a distinct issue exactly how to settle the metaphysics (and epistemology) of mathematics. @33
PM1, we are both aware that Popper and his falsificationism, tied to critical rationalism, are widely popularised views on science.
I can accept that it's an interesting question as to why Popper is the most popular philosopher of science amongst practicing scientists. And I think there's a straightforward answer: because Popper endorses a romanticized conception of the scientist as exemplifying critical thought, while at the same time thinking of scientific theories as solutions to interesting puzzles rather than as revealing how things really are in some metaphysically deep or important sense. The scientist as extremely sophisticated problem-solver is important to how most scientists think about themselves, and that's what Popper gives them.
Where, with scientism, many take that to cover all knowledge.
Maybe. I have some misgivings about the term "scientism", which I've gone into exhaustive depth elsewhere on this blog. For now, I think it suffices to note that, so far as I can tell, Popper would not say that science is the only kind of knowledge -- he could not say that and also have views about what makes science distinct and different from other kinds of knowledge. One thing about the SEP entry that intrigued me is partly biographical about Popper. He was interested in Marxism and in psychoanalysis when he was younger. Then he encountered Einstein. And the main difference is that Einstein wanted to see if he was wrong: he wanted the physics community to do experiments which would disconfirm general relativity. By contrast, Marxists and Freudians claimed to be scientific but had no interest in having their pet theories disconfirmed -- on the contrary, any evidence that went against their theories was just dismissed. I think Popper is onto something very important about the attitude that exemplifies science at its best, and that might be quite different from how everyday empirical knowledge works. I doubt Popper would object to someone who says, "I know that Bob is going to ask me for money today, because we get paid tomorrow and Bob always asks me for money right before we get paid, because he always spends his money faster than he earns it." That's a reliable generalization from past experience, and as inductively valid as everyday empirical knowledge gets. Yet it doesn't count as scientific knowledge, and we can think of several reasons why it doesn't. For one thing, it doesn't yield any insight into laws of nature (if there are any) and it doesn't unify lots of different phenomena under a more comprehensive principle. It doesn't elucidate some underlying mechanism that explains why Bob spends his money faster than he earns it. But more importantly, I think for Popper, all it really amounts to is a subjective estimate of what's likely to happen -- and that's why it fails to count as genuinely objective knowledge. Importantly, it should be added, Popper was not a physicalist or materialist. He thought the world of cultural objects (including works of art and scientific theories) was irreducible to the world of mental states or the world of physical objects (and also that the world of mental states is irreducible to the world of physical objects). PyrrhoManiac1
FP @38
Thank you for adding to the list of disingenuous tactics used by some rather than substantively addressing their arguments.
You have posted no less than 3 times in this thread. What exactly is the substantive argument that you are making? What did you offer that can be substantively addressed? Origenes
KF No one in the skeptic camp "despises" you or anyone else affiliated with ID, nor have I seen any remarks from skeptics and other non-IDers that would so suggest...... chuckdarwin
Kairosfocus writes:
we cannot but note your choice of distractors, which manifest the precise pattern of projection to the despised other. And, swarm tactics are a notorious mob pattern….That sidestepping is a clear sign that you have little of substance but wish to poison [the well].
Thank you for adding to the list of disingenuous tactics used by some rather than substantively addressing their arguments. I knew that I had forgotten some. Ford Prefect
FP, we cannot but note your choice of distractors, which manifest the precise pattern of projection to the despised other. And, swarm tactics are a notorious mob pattern. You would have been well advised, instead, to address substantial matters, or else, perhaps to monitor and learn. That sidestepping is a clear sign that you have little of substance but wish to poison. Consider yourself further exposed for record. KF kairosfocus
CD writes:
And don’t forget everyone’s pop-psych favorite, “ cognitive dissonance.”
Very true. But we also can’t forget the accusation of “piling on” whenever two or more ID opponents point out the easily confirmed disingenuous tactics used by some of the UD parishioners. Ford Prefect
PS, to see where this goes, A slice of Hilbert's axiomatisation:
I. Incidence For every two points A and B there exists a line a that contains them both. We write AB = a or BA = a. Instead of “contains,” we may also employ other forms of expression; for example, we may say “A lies upon a”, “A is a point of a”, “a goes through A and through B”, “a joins A to B”, etc. If A lies upon a and at the same time upon another line b, we make use also of the expression: “The lines a and b have the point A in common,” etc. For every two points there exists no more than one line that contains them both; consequently, if AB = a and AC = a, where B ? C, then also BC = a. There exist at least two points on a line. There exist at least three points that do not lie on a line. For every three points A, B, C not situated on the same line there exists a plane ? that contains all of them. For every plane there exists a point which lies on it. We write ABC = ?. We employ also the expressions: “A, B, C, lie in ?”; “A, B, C are points of ?”, etc. For every three points A, B, C which do not lie in the same line, there exists no more than one plane that contains them all. If two points A, B of a line a lie in a plane ?, then every point of a lies in ?. In this case we say: “The line a lies in the plane ?,” etc. If two planes ?, ? have a point A in common, then they have at least a second point B in common. There exist at least four points not lying in a plane.
More refined but not substantially different in spirit. KF kairosfocus
PM1, to flesh out my point, here is a summary of Euclid's framework, from Wikipedia:
Near the beginning of the first book of the Elements, Euclid gives five postulates (axioms) for plane geometry, stated in terms of constructions (as translated by Thomas Heath):[5] Let the following be postulated: 1 To draw a straight line from any point to any point. 2 To produce (extend) a finite straight line continuously in a straight line. 3 To describe a circle with any centre and distance (radius). 4 That all right angles are equal to one another. 5 [The parallel postulate]: That, if a straight line falling on two straight lines make the interior angles on the same side less than two right angles, the two straight lines, if produced indefinitely, meet on that side on which the angles are less than two right angles. Although Euclid explicitly only asserts the existence of the constructed objects, in his reasoning he also implicitly assumes them to be unique. The Elements also include the following five "common notions": 1 Things that are equal to the same thing are also equal to one another (the transitive property of a Euclidean relation). 2 If equals are added to equals, then the wholes are equal (Addition property of equality). 3 If equals are subtracted from equals, then the differences are equal (subtraction property of equality). 4 Things that coincide with one another are equal to one another (reflexive property). 5 The whole is greater than the part.
We can no longer assume familiarity. kairosfocus
PM1, we are both aware that Popper and his falsificationism, tied to critical rationalism, are widely popularised views on science. Where, with scientism, many take that to cover all knowledge. So, especially given a commenter using such tactics, it is highly relevant to address some of his thought. And Origenes is right to ask some pretty pointed questions. KF kairosfocus
PM1 @27
PM1: Popper is very clearly distinguishing between scientific theories and philosophical accounts of scientific theories.
Ori: Can you quote Popper making this distinction?
PM1: No
Can you explain what makes you say that "Popper is very clearly distinguishing between scientific theories and philosophical accounts of scientific theories"? Origenes
PM1, Mathematics is not simply an arbitrary game and logic is likewise. Before we get to axiomatisations and systems [esp those of C19 - 20] first we have built up a fund of mathematical facts of high reliability, such as || + ||| --> |||||, this is not just a game where glyphs are chained, 2 + 3 = 5. Likewise 3^2 + 4^2 = 5^2, with a right angle triangle enfolded at the points of tying the squares together is a fact embedded in the twelve segment rope, long before the general theorems were worked out. Axiomatisations became accepted as they were tying principles that unified the acknowledged facts, extended structures and enabled proving further useful results, in the first instance, then we developed the idea of general axiomatisations [including of algebra-icised logic]. Then, at length Godel incompleteness struck. So, we find out that truth and knowledge bridge the Kantian ugly gulch. I suggest, core Mathematics is an aspect of logic of being addressing possible worlds, dealing with structure and quantity, e.g. starting with {} --> 0 and articulating the von Neumann construction etc. Axiomatisations then articulate hopefully possible logic model worlds and key necessary being entities and associated necessary states of affairs of structure and quantity extend to any possible world. Hence, an answer to Wigner's wonder. KF kairosfocus
Do we really know in what kind of world we live? An idiot in a comment made comparisons between a child and a pig. https://rumble.com/v2b1ujq-eyes-of-the-devil-a-documentary-film.html whistler
FP [and I see CD has tried to pile on, on posting], dismissively listing warranted corrections to errors, errors that are substantially pointed out case by case -- as the above shows -- is a back handed way to announce your intent to cling to your errors. Sad, but duly noted. KF PS, Cognitive dissonance is real enough, and it often leads to defenses by trying to project blame or fault to the other, whether made up out of whole cloth or by way of distractive finger pointing that changes the subject. It is duly noted that the just above is a case in point, and again, the implication is, clinging to corrected errors. We note, neither of you can substantially correct Origenes, so we can confidently hold he has the better on the merits, as is evident. A first summary https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/cognitive-dissonance Note, projection to the other is a common strategy for dealing with this kairosfocus
FP/24 You’re right, of course. I was just tabulating the most recent that I’ve run across. And don’t forget everyone’s pop-psych favorite, “ cognitive dissonance.” I hadn’t seen that one since 1980 when it was all the rage. You know, like “Casper Weinberger exhibited overt signs of cognitive dissonance while testifying before the Iran-Contra Congressional hearing panel…….” chuckdarwin
@26
Can you quote Popper doing this?
No. My knowledge of Popper is limited to second-hand sources, except for one article of his on Marxism and psychoanalysis as pseudosciences. My secondhand knowledge of Popper is based on the SEP entry, the chapter on Popper in Peter Godfrey-Smith's textbook Theory and Reality, and some discussion of Popper in Bryan Magee's Confessions of a Philosopher. So, I have some familiarity with the basics but I can't quote chapter-and-verse.
So, according to you, Popper is talking about scientific theories only. Would you consider mathematics and logic to be part of scientific theory?
There's a question here as to whether Popper would consider mathematics and logic to be part of science, and then there's a question as to whether I would. On the first question, I have no idea. But I would certainly be surprised if he thought that mathematics and logic were part of scientific theory. On the second question, I definitely do not consider mathematics and logic to be part of scientific theory. I endorse the analytic/synthetic distinction: there is a difference in kind between assertions that are true (or false) "by meaning alone" and assertions that true (or false) because of how the world actually is. (Whether this distinction maps onto the a priori/a posteriori distinction is also a massively complicated issue.) I think of logic as analytic: logical truths are truths because of the syntactic and semantic features of the basic terms (variables, operators, quantifiers) that constitute a system of symbolic logic. Whether mathematics is analytic or synthetic is a famously vexing question, and I have no firm commitment about it. I just haven't kept up to date on those debates. But I am of the tentative opinion that mathematics is analytic, or at least a priori in some interesting way: scientists will never perform an experiment showing that 2+2=4 is not always true. By contrast, science is quite differently synthetic: we cannot hope to confirm or discomfirm a scientific theory simply by considering the meaning of the words involved. So, my position is that mathematics and logic are not part of scientific theory, though they can be (of course) used by scientists in the development and testing of scientific theories. PyrrhoManiac1
PM1@
Popper is very clearly distinguishing between scientific theories and philosophical accounts of scientific theories.
Can you quote Popper making this distinction?
Popper: “No particular theory may ever be regarded as absolutely certain.” (OKN 360).
So here, according to you, Popper is talking about scientific theories only. He "only" meant to say that scientific theories cannot be certain, as opposed to "philosophical accounts of scientific theories" which (conveniently) can be certain. Question: would you consider mathematics and logic to be part of scientific theory? Origenes
@23
On core issues, the metaphysical [including ontological], logical, epistemological and even axiological are all inextricably intertwined. We may highlight one facet but all of the others contribute, and it contributes to the others in turn.
That seems right to me, though it raises the question as to why we ought to concern ourselves with Popper at all, given that he was not a comprehensive system-builder.
Popper may indeed have concerned himself with the logic of science but the very term shows the interaction, science is slightly adapted from the Latin for knowledge. Knowledge is the modified Greek term, itself. The logic of science is a logic of warrant, directly tied to knowledge.
To be honest, I'm not persuaded by etymologies. The fact that the word "science" comes from a Latin word that meant "knowledge" doesn't by itself show us that Popper's philosophy of science rests on any epistemological or ontological background. That is not to deny that it does -- only to say that we need an argument here, not just an etymology. (Consider a parallel: if we want to know more about what kinds of technology promote the human good, does it really help to know that the word "technology" comes from Greek origins that would translate as, roughly, "the reasoned articulation of craftsmanship?")
So, it is in order to highlight his self referentiality and its self-defeating consequences.
I'm not persuaded that there are any. Popper is very clearly distinguishing between scientific theories and philosophical accounts of scientific theories. If there's any real tension in Popper (according to the SEP entry), it's that he does not extend to his own account of science, the same tentative and provisional status that he thinks exemplifies science at its best. On the contrary (again, according to SEP) he was far more dogmatic about his philosophy of science than he had right to be, given his own reasoning about the epistemic virtues that science fosters and promotes.
When the dust settles, what is left is weak form knowledge, with observations more reliable than theories. That is why a counter-observation can overturn a theory but once an observation is sound a theory cannot remove that soundness. Though, theories can guide us to unsuspected unsoundness in observations.
I think that Popper would accept all of that -- especially the power of observations to overturn theories (which is what he calls "falsification"). But I am not sure how far he would go in the idea that observations are theory-independent. Consider it this way: suppose I am looking at a sample using high magnification in a light microscope. My observation may falsify my theory that mitochondria contain very small hamsters running on hamster wheels. But my observation also relies on all sorts of background theories -- theories of optics, of how reflection and magnification work, etc. One of the chief objections to Popper (I was told in grad school) is that when you have a falsifying observation, it's never clear just which hypothesis has been falsified. I might fail to observe the tiny hamsters and argue that therefore it is the laws of optics that have been falsified! And while that's of course quite silly, I'm not sure that Popper's philosophy of science really offers guidance as to why such silliness deserves to be rejected.
I agree with you that inductive logic is vital, and that abductive reasoning is particularly useful, though humbling.
Well, at least we agree on something. PyrrhoManiac1
CD writes:
The two most over used expressions on this blog: self-defeating and self-referential……
Don’t forget red herring, projection, Darwinist, strawman,, scientism, incoherent, and several more. It has been my experience that these terms and labels are most often used by people who are ideologically married to their views but don’t have the valid arguments or compelling evidence to support them. Another piece of evidence pointing towards a person who is ideologically rather than logically driven is when they start most responses with a criticism of your motives or by applying a limiting label to you. It would be interesting to enumerate and compare the use of these terms by the supporters here of ID and those who are not convinced. Ford prefect
PM1, pardon, but the microcosm-facets-holism principle applies. On core issues, the metaphysical [including ontological], logical, epistemological and even axiological are all inextricably intertwined. We may highlight one facet but all of the others contribute, and it contributes to the others in turn. Popper may indeed have concerned himself with the logic of science but the very term shows the interaction, science is slightly adapted from the Latin for knowledge. Knowledge is the modified Greek term, itself. The logic of science is a logic of warrant, directly tied to knowledge. So, it is in order to highlight his self referentiality and its self-defeating consequences. When the dust settles, what is left is weak form knowledge, with observations more reliable than theories. That is why a counter-observation can overturn a theory but once an observation is sound a theory cannot remove that soundness. Though, theories can guide us to unsuspected unsoundness in observations. I agree with you that inductive logic is vital, and that abductive reasoning is particularly useful, though humbling. KF kairosfocus
I think that the discussion in this thread has gone off the rails quite badly with the assumption that Popper is doing, or interested in doing, epistemology. I think that is simply not true. His governing interest, so far as I can tell, is articulating the logic of science: what science is, how it works, what makes science different from other forms of knowledge. Perhaps he could be accused of a version of "scientism", insofar as he does think of scientific knowledge as more reliable than other forms of knowledge. But this is because of the epistemic virtues that scientific methods foster and promote, not because science allows us some magical insight into the noumenal realism. I do think that one can fault Popper for an overly romanticized conception of scientific practice. His imagines the individual scientist as someone who has overcome her own tendency to confirmation bias. He does not appreciate, or does not seem to appreciate enough, that scientists are able to mitigate their tendencies to confirmation bias only because of the organizational dynamics of the community of scientists. At its best, when all goes optimally well under real-world conditions, scientific practices function as iterated error filters: filtering out error at the individual level through collaboration in lab or field, filtering out error in the process of peer review, and then again in the process of agreement and disagreement in the scientific literature. We are never wholly free of error when it comes to empirical knowledge, but we can make progress in removing errors. (And I think Popper would like that view.) I would also fault Popper for having tossed aside induction as he did. Popper was convinced that Hume's problem of induction was unsolvable. (Whereas I think the right response to Hume is to see how much his skepticism about induction relies on an account of experience that we ought to reject.) One of the main differences between everyday empirical knowledge and genuine scientific knowledge, Popper thought, was that everyday empirical knowledge relies on inductive generalization and genuine scientific knowledge does not. This results in a break or rupture between everyday empirical knowledge and scientific knowledge. (I find such a break to be unacceptable.) I think that Popper would have been better off if he had read more Peirce, and appreciated that both everyday empirical knowledge and scientific knowledge rely on abduction -- guesswork that draws on background knowledge about how things might be, such that if things really are as they are guessed to be, we have a testable explanation as to why things are as they seem to be. Peirce emphasized that abduction must be complemented by deduction and by induction: we make guesses about how things might be, infer what measurements must follow from those guesses, conduct experiments that generate those measurements, and generalize across those measurements to see if the resulting data confirms the initial guess. So while I find something interesting in Popper, and could definitely stand to read more of his work (I think I have a mostly unread copy of Conjectures and Refutations), when it comes to philosophy of science I prefer Peirce and the pragmatist tradition. PyrrhoManiac1
CD, your dismissive stunt fails. First, once core questions are on the table, they normally include ourselves in their direct or implicit reference. That means we have to take particular care to avoid question begging and contradiction. Popper is demonstrably self referential and self contradictory, though some can be rescued. When rescued, we are back to weak form knowledge. So, the OP is inadvertently underscored. KF kairosfocus
The two most over used expressions on this blog: self-defeating and self-referential...... chuckdarwin
Origenes, we can do a liberal, charitable edit, e.g.:
“The quest for [scientific or similar] certainty.. . is mistaken …. though we may seek for [scientific or similar] truth … we can never be quite certain that we have found it” (OSE2 375) “No particular [scientific or similar] theory may ever be regarded as absolutely certain.” (OKN 360).
This of course boils down to, theories of science are prone to correction over time, and while we may warrant them as empirically reliable across a tested range, per observations, that is itself just that, an observation. That is, we have a case of weak form knowledge, softened further to tested reliability. Put it this way, no one should be tried in a court for disagreeing with a scientific theory as if s/he were in disagreement with capital T Truth. We may ask for why and may debate the critique but we too may be in error per the pessimistic induction. Of course, this particularly obtains for origins sciences, where we cannot inspect the actual past. But of course, that is exactly where ideologues in lab coats want to impose The Party Of Science Party Line. Oops. Other clips from Popper cannot even be rescued to that extent:
Popper: “Precision and certainty are false ideals. They are impossible to attain and therefore dangerously misleading …” (UNQ 24). Popper: “We never know what we are talking about” (UNQ 27)
These are irretrievably self defeating, hopeless monsters. Instead, Willard and heirs stand up much better. KF PS, Of course, this is tied to objective truth, so, time for a little Algebra+ (TM):
The truth claim, “there are no [generally knowable] objective truths regarding any matter (so, on any particular matter),” roughly equivalent to, “knowledge is inescapably only subjective or relative,” is an error. Which, happily, can be recognised and corrected. Often, such error is presented and made to seem plausible through the diversity of opinions assertion, with implication that none have or are in a position to have a generally warranted, objective conclusion. This, in extreme form, is a key thesis of the nihilism that haunts our civilisation, which we must detect, expose to the light of day, correct and dispel, in defence of civilisation and human dignity. (NB: Sometimes the blind men and the elephant fable is used to make it seem plausible, overlooking the narrator's implicit claim to objectivity. Oops!) Now, to set things aright, let’s symbolise: ~[O*G] with * as AND. This claims, it is false that there is an objective knowable truth, on the set of general definable topics, G. Ironically, it intends to describe not mere opinion but warranted, credible truth about knowledge in general. So, ~[O*G] is self referential as it is clearly about subject matter G, and is intended to be a well warranted objectively true claim. But it is itself therefore a truth claim about knowledge in general intended to be taken as objectively true, which is what it tries to deny as a possibility. So, it is self contradictory and necessarily false. In steps:
PHASE I: Let a proposition be represented by x G = x is a proposition asserting that some state of affairs regarding some identifiable matter in general including e.g. history, science, the secrets of our hearts, morality etc, is the case O = x is objective and knowable, being adequately warranted as credibly true} PHASE II: It is claimed, S= ~[O*G] = 1, 1 meaning true However, the subject of S is G, it therefore claims to be objectively true, O and is about G where it forbids O-status to any claim of type G so, ~[O*G] cannot be true per self referential incoherence ============= PHASE III: The Algebra, translating from S: ~[O*G] = 0 [as self referential and incoherent cf above] ~[~[O*G]] = 1 [the negation is therefore true] __________ O*G = 1 [condensing not of not] where, G [general truth claim including moral ones of course] So too, O [if an AND is true, each sub proposition is separately true] ================ CONCLUSION: That is, there are objective general, particular and -- as a key case -- moral truths; and a first, self evident one is that ~[O*G] is false, ~[O*G] = 0. Therefore, the set of knowable objective truths in general -- and embracing those that happen to be about states of affairs in regard to right conduct etc -- is non empty, it is not vacuous and we cannot play empty set square of opposition games with it.
That’s important. Also, there are many particular objective general and moral truths that are adequately warranted to be regarded as reliable. Try, Napoleon was once a European monarch and would be conqueror. Try, Jesus of Nazareth is a figure of history. Try, it is wrong to torture babies for fun, and more. Ours is a needlessly confused age, heading for trouble.
PPS, as we have seen rhetorical stunts over objective vs subjective:
Kindly, ponder the very carefully worded definitions from Collins English Dictionary [CED], where high quality dictionaries record and report correct usage:
SUBJECTIVE: subjective adj 1. belonging to, proceeding from, or relating to the mind of the thinking subject and not the nature of the object being considered [--> in short, in the contemplating subject, not necessarily the contemplated observed or abstract object such as the null set {} --> 0] 2. of, relating to, or emanating from a person’s emotions, prejudices, etc: subjective views. [--> this highlights the error-pronenes of our subjectivity, thus need for filtering to achieve adequate reliability] OBJECTIVE: objective adj 1. (Philosophy) existing independently of perception or an individual’s conceptions: are there objective moral values?. [AmHD helps: 1. a. Existing independent of or external to the mind;] {--> independent of particularly should be seen as inherent in the object, observable or abstract and that on grounds that confer reliability} 2. undistorted by emotion or personal bias [--> highlighting error proneness] 3. of or relating to actual and external phenomena as opposed to thoughts, feelings, etc.[ --> this sense especially relates to observable, concrete things like a tree, and again points to our error proneness, however for cause something like the null set and related Math is objective though abstract, there being no physical location for the null set]
Dictionaries of course summarise from usage by known good speakers and writers, forming a body of recorded knowledge on language. So, we may freely conclude that:
objectivity does not mean empirical, tangible external/physical object or the like, it can include items contemplated by the mind such as mathematical entities etc and which due to adequate warrant are reasonably INDEPENDENT of our individual or collective error-prone cognition, opinions, delusions, biases and distortions etc.
Objectivity, is established as a key concept that addresses our error proneness by provision of adequate warrant that gives good reason to be confident that the item or state of affairs etc contemplated is real not a likely point of delusion. Yes, degree of warrant is a due consideration and in many cases common to science etc is defeasible but credible. In certain key cases, e.g. actual self evidence, it is utterly certain.
kairosfocus
When one adjudicates knowledge, when one criticizes knowledge, it must necessarily be the case that one has access to a particular knowledge. When Popper says: ….
“No particular theory may ever be regarded as absolutely certain.”
… he must have knowledge of what a certain theory is. IOW he must have a ‘theory on certain knowledge’. And he must be certain about that theory, because only if he is certain can he say what he says. However, at the same time, when his claim is applied to itself, it is implied that his ‘theory on certain knowledge’ cannot be regarded as certain. SELF-DEFEATING. Popper is like the guy who raises his arm to show you that he "cannot" raise his arm “like this.” He is like that guy who, at the top of his lungs, shouts at you “I WILL NEVER SHOUT AT ANYONE !!” Origenes
When one adjucates knowledge, when one criticizes knowledge, it must necessarily be the case that one has access to a particular knowledge. When Popper says: ….
“No particular theory may ever be regarded as absolutely certain.”
… he must have knowledge of what a certain theory is. IOW he must have a ‘theory on certain knowledge’. And he must be certain about that theory, because only if he is certain can he say what he says. However, at the same time, when his claim is applied to itself, it is implied that his ‘theory on certain knowledge’ cannot be regarded as certain. SELF-DEFEATING. Popper is like the guy who raises his arm to show you that he "cannot" raise his arm “like this.” He is like that guy who, at the top of his lungs, shouts at you “I WILL NEVER SHOUT AT ANYONE !!” Origenes
KF
... important snippets. Clearly the Willard approach allows us to move forward. For example, due to the logic of inference to best explanation, scientific theories may be reliable but struggle to claim assured certainty.
Interestingly, we all have to deal with the same situation, we are all in the same epistemological boat. The problem with ‘hyperskeptics’ is that, to their embarrassment, they lack the rational capacity to realize this. You and I have to point it out to them again and again: there is no position for anyone outside of the circle of knowledge. When you go off foul mouthing “all knowledge” you necessarily make a self-defeating statement. There is no special “safe space” for hyperskeptics. When will they get it, Kairosfocus?
Popper: “The quest for certainty.. . is mistaken …. though we may seek for truth … we can never be quite certain that we have found it” (OSE2 375)
This is a universal truth claim: 1. We can never be certain about any truth 2. (1.) is a truth claim. 3. We can never be certain about (1.) SELF-DEFEATING
Popper: ““No particular theory may ever be regarded as absolutely certain.” (OKN 360).
Again, a universal truth claim. 1. No theory is certain 2. (1.) is a theory. 3. (1.) is not certain. SELF-DEFEATING
Popper:  “Precision and certainty are false ideals. They are impossible to attain and therefore dangerously misleading …” (UNQ 24).
This claim applied to itself is neither precise nor certain and on top of that “dangerously misleading.” SELF-DEFEATING
Popper: “We never know what we are talking about” (UNQ 27)
….. SELF-DEFEATING Origenes
Origenes, important snippets. Clearly the Willard approach allows us to move forward. For example, due to the logic of inference to best explanation, scientific theories may be reliable but struggle to claim assured certainty. Observations are more reliable, including reliable predictive power in a tested range. Currently, on the day job, fatigue life and arguments that ultrasound frequency testing regimes are undermining the fatigue limit claims for ferrous materials, are coming up. Of course, the DHC 6 Twin Otter is Al based and has a regulatory limit on airframe, of 66k hours or 132k takeoff and landing cycles. Issues of grandfathering and regulatory reforms are on the table given short runway issues. I here point to direct, going concern world experience and challenges as we must anchor to real world life where decisions have consequences. KF kairosfocus
BPS, I trust my onward remarks show how much broader the points in the OP are than they may at first seem to be. KF kairosfocus
PM1, 5, that is precisely the cynicism I target, for cause. The trying to prove ourselves wrong approach privileges hyperskepticism and invites the cynical, irresponsible selectively hyperskeptical manipulation we are suffering. No, instead, let us seek to be responsible in regards to first duties of reason, to truth, to right reason, to warrant and wider prudence, recognising objective, knowable truth. As for metaphysical concepts, I suggest a microcosm/facets holistic approach in which truth claims assert that they accurately describe entities and/or states of affairs but also reflect duties and require logical considerations and epistemic ones, while often being self-referential. This is a source of the inherent difficulties of philosophy as we must be careful to neither beg questions nor end in self defeating self referential incoherence. To assert it is false that error exists is the latter, and implies a case of undeniable self evident truth. Our core concepts are metaphysically [including ontologically] entangled. For example, arguably a very powerful definition of Mathematics is, [the study of] the logic of structure and quantity. This also highlights the significance and power of definition as presenting apt, careful, responsible summary. Dictionaries are not useless, despite cynical dismissiveness. Which, Popper invites with remarks such as: " “Definitions do not play any very important part in science …. Our ‘scientific knowledge’ … remains entirely unaffected if we eliminate all definitions”" This is simply not true, what is an electron, what is momentum, what is force, what is energy, what is a wave, what is fatigue failure and is there a limiting stress below which it does not occur for certain materials and structures? KF kairosfocus
BPS, the core point is, that knowledge is a term of language and concept that belongs to ordinary people (including ordinary technicians and scientists, historians, managers, teachers, journalists etc), so on pain of loaded equivocation, we must recognise the general usage and must avoid cynical dismissiveness. Where, yes, 99+% of practical knowledge is tied to our involvement in the going concern world, but what is said also implicitly embraces things like the post Godel uncertainty world for Math etc. For paradigm instance Newtonian dynamics, pre and post Relativity and Quantum, is clearly knowledge. That automatically means that knowledge must embrace a weak, defeasible [but tested and reliable] sense that can in certain cases become utterly certain [2 + 3 = 5] but also is open to weaker cases. That puts us where Dallas Willard and heirs with influences from Plantinga etc have come out. Notice, W & H as cited in 2: " Knowledge is not rare, and it is not esoteric." I add, nor should we privilege hyperskepticism, a bane of intellectual life in our time and over the past several centuries that ends in cynicism and chaos as we see all around. Hence, knowledge is warranted, credibly true (so, reliable) belief. Warrant is in response to Gettier et al, and highlights objectivity. Credible truth (so, reliability) implies the trustworthiness we need to bet the farm on, to take medicines, build aircraft, computers, ships, bridges etc while not being deliberately counterfactual models or calculated half-truths. Belief, so, acknowledged and held with responsible confidence. KF kairosfocus
PM1 @8
PM1: I think that for Popper, by “theory” he just means “empirical theory.”
You "think"? Please provide a quote of Popper saying that.
It follows that we can never attain certainty: "The quest for certainty.. . is mistaken .... though we may seek for truth ... we can never be quite certain that we have found it" (OSE2 375). "No particular theory may ever be regarded as absolutely certain .... No scientific theory is sacrosanct ..." (OKN 360). "Precision and certainty are false ideals. They are impossible to attain and therefore dangerously misleading ..." (UNQ 24). He summed up with an oftrepeated aphorism: "We never know what we are talking about" (UNQ 27). Accordingly, Popper refused to grant any philosophical value to definitions: "Definitions do not play any very important part in science .... Our 'scientific knowledge' ... remains entirely unaffected if we eliminate all definitions" (OSE2 14). "Definitions never give any factual knowledge about 'nature' or about the 'nature of things"' (C&R 20-21). "Definitions .... are never really needed, and rarely of any use" (RASC xxxvi). [Dykes quoting Popper ]
I am sure that Popper meant “We never know what we are talking about” in a non-self-defeating way. Origenes
@9
I guess we must think differently about the meaning of metaphysics.
I suspect so!
BTW, Dewey is fine, but in my estimation, Alfred North Whitehead totally rocks : )
I've had lots of people urge me to read Process and Reality over the years, and I think I tried it a few summers ago. Didn't get any further than when I tried going it alone with Hegel's Science of Logic. Some things just need seminars or reading groups to get through. Anyway, my 'day job' (such as it is) is mostly in philosophy of mind and cognitive science, so a lot less on the a priori speculative side of things. Lately I've been getting more interested in the philosophical issues involved in AI. PyrrhoManiac1
HBi Pyrrho - I like what you said! I'd quibble in regards to the separability of science and metaphysics, to which I'd say "it's not so". I guess we must think differently about the meaning of metaphysics. BTW, Dewey is fine, but in my estimation, Alfred North Whitehead totally rocks : ) BPS from AZ
@6
I note here that the theory ‘all swans are white’ differs in kind from e.g. the theory that 2+2=4. That is, it is not logically required for swans to be white, however, it is logically required for 2+2 to be 4. So, just because a theory of the type ‘all swans are white’ can be falsified does not imply that “we might be mistaken about any theory regardless of the amount of testing.”
I think that for Popper, by "theory" he just means "empirical theory." I don't know if he has any concern at all with the analytic truths of logic and mathematics. PyrrhoManiac1
@5
My position is that the most important concepts of all are ultimately metaphysical in nature, and as such, lie beyond simple notions of right and wrong. But I’ve yet to meet a materialist who actually understands this key point, much less agrees with it. I suppose you could say it’s baked into the logical positivist cake. …..not that there’s anything wrong with that! : )
Hi! I can understand where you're coming from here, though it's not my position at all. I am mostly influenced by the American pragmatists, but esp. Dewey, in how I think about what makes a philosophical question or problem meaningful. I admire the logical positivists (esp Carnap) but their project was doomed to fail from the start. These days I tend to think of science and metaphysics as distinct but ultimately inseparable: every scientific theory has entailments for what can be said to exist, and every metaphysical position has entailments for how empirical knowledge is possible PyrrhoManiac1
But Popper noticed a crucial asymmetry: the falsification of universal theories is logically possible; we need just one counter instance. ‘All swans are white’ cannot be verified by any finite number of positive instances of white swans. It can be falsified by one instance of a non-?white swan; as this ‘well-?supported’ theory eventually was falsified by the discovery of black swans in Australia. So, methodologically, we can make a virtue of producing bold universal conjectures that we do not pretend are ultimately supported by evidence and then test these conjectures as severely as we can: both by observation and criticism. We can happily admit that, in principle, we might be mistaken about any theory regardless of the amount of testing. This became known as ‘falsificationism’.
I note here that the theory ‘all swans are white’ differs in kind from e.g. the theory that 2+2=4. That is, it is not logically required for swans to be white, however, it is logically required for 2+2 to be 4. So, just because a theory of the type ‘all swans are white’ can be falsified does not imply that “we might be mistaken about any theory regardless of the amount of testing.” Origenes
Hi Pyrro M. - My position is that the most important concepts of all are ultimately metaphysical in nature, and as such, lie beyond simple notions of right and wrong. But I've yet to meet a materialist who actually understands this key point, much less agrees with it. I suppose you could say it's baked into the logical positivist cake. .....not that there's anything wrong with that! : ) BPS from AZ
I'll admit I haven't read much Popper first-hand, just lots of second-hand information over the years. That said, I'll also admit that I find something quite admirable in his idea that we'd be better off spending less energy trying to show that we're right, and spend more energy trying to prove ourselves wrong. PyrrhoManiac1
Thank you for pointing out this information - I'll be sure to study it in detail when I get the time. But a quick review seems to suggest that virtually every one of the alternate epistemic arguments presented therein are based solely on sense-based (what I'd call "representational") knowledge. As many people know, words can be slippery, and when it comes to the idea of "knowledge", there are other, more valid modes of knowing. Although I suspect many, if not most, dedicated materialists would probably be prone to disagree (which is fine by me). BPS from AZ
F/N: Observe, Willard and heirs:
To have knowledge in the dispositional sense—where you know things you are not necessarily thinking about at the time—is to be able to represent something as it is on an adequate basis of thought or experience, not to exclude communications from qualified sources (“authority”). This is the “knowledge” of ordinary life, and it is what you expect of your electrician, auto mechanic, math teacher, and physician. Knowledge is not rare, and it is not esoteric . . . no satisfactory general description of “an adequate basis of thought or experience” has ever been achieved. We are nevertheless able to determine in many specific types of cases that such a basis is or is not present [p.19] . . . . Knowledge, but not mere belief or feeling, generally confers the right to act and to direct action, or even to form and supervise policy. [p. 20] In any area of human activity, knowledge brings certain advantages. Special considerations aside, knowledge authorizes one to act, to direct action, to develop and supervise policy, and to teach. It does so because, as everyone assumes, it enables us to deal more successfully with reality: with what we can count on, have to deal with, or are apt to have bruising encounters with. Knowledge involves assured [--> warranted, credible] truth, and truth in our representations and beliefs is very like accuracy in the sighting mechanism on a gun. If the mechanism is accurately aligned—is “true,” it enables those who use it with care to hit an intended target. [p. 4, Dallas Willard & Literary Heirs, The Disappearance of Moral Knowledge, Routledge|Taylor& Francis Group, 2018. ]
This is where we must begin, to straighten things out. KF kairosfocus
L&FP, 67: So-called “critical rationalism” and the blunder of denying [defeat-able] warrant for knowledge kairosfocus

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