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DOES IT MATTER WHAT WE BELIEVE ABOUT MORALITY? (A guest-post by HeKS)

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A recent post by Barry Arrington started an interesting and lively discussion about morality, whether it is objective and, if so, how it might be grounded. Barry provided the job description for a clinical ethicist and then asked how a materialist could apply for such a job in good faith, given the inability of the materialist to ground his moral and ethical views in anything more solid, objective and enduring than his own subjective opinions and the opinions of his fellow materialists.

In the ensuing discussion, it seemed that many attempts were made to divert attention away from the core issue that materialism can offer no ultimate grounding for objective moral values and duties. Instead, comments were made in which certain persons recast the original question as a claim that atheists are incapable of behaving morally, or that all atheists personally believe that there is no such thing as right and wrong.

Of course, this is not at all what was claimed. It is manifestly false that all atheists personally believe there is no such thing as right and wrong. And nobody with any sense doubts that atheists are perfectly capable of behaving morally and ethically if they so desire. The point, rather, is that the atheist who believes there really is such a thing as right and wrong, good and bad, is incapable of providing a rational basis for his belief, and the atheist who chooses to behave morally is incapable of offering any rational argument for why anybody else should feel compelled to do so if they are not similarly inclined.

After all, if Richard Dawkins is right when he says that we live in a universe that has, at bottom, “nothing but blind pitiless indifference,”[F/N 1] why should we disagree with him when he declares in the same breath that there is also “no evil and no good”? If all of reality is absolutely reducible to mindless matter and energy, why should we expect that it would have any moral aspect at all? There is nothing about a quark, an atom, or any other constituent or conglomeration of matter in any configuration than can account for the real existence of any moral law by which we humans might be bound. Why should reality contain a set of objective moral values and duties that ought to compel the behaviour of humans if they are nothing more than relatively advanced primates living “on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe” [F/N 2] and are the end result of a “meaningless and purposeless process (i.e. naturalistic evolution) that did not have [them] in mind”? [F/N 3] The very notion is absurd.

Why Does it Matter?

A casual observer presented with these facts might well ask why any of this really matters. And, indeed, why does it even matter? Does it make any difference whether morality is objective or merely subjective? And does it matter whether we believe in the objectivity of morality?

Interestingly, the atheist participants in the discussion succeeded in offering some good arguments for why a belief in the objectivity of moral values and duties really does make a difference, even if they may have done so unintentionally.

For example, in comment #34, Acartia_bogart said this:

“Nobody, including theists, can objectively demonstrate that anybody’s morality is superior than anybody else’s.”

When Barry pointed out to him that he had just “effectively demonstrated the point of the [original post]” (#36), Acartia_bogart adjusted his claim in comment #41 to say that instead of referring to “anybody” he should have said “any group”, such that his claim can be understood like this:

‘Nobody, including theists, can objectively demonstrate that any group’s (e.g. atheists or theists) morality is superior to any other group’s morality.’

Of course, on materialism, Acartia_bogart is absolutely right, but the substitution of a group in place of an individual does nothing to lessen his confirmation of Barry’s original point. In reality, not only is it not possible on materialism to objectively demonstrate (or even argue) that the morality of one group is better or worse than another, but it is impossible to objectively demonstrate that the morality of any group or person is either good or bad at all, because there is no objective standard against which their morality can be measured. Furthermore, this observation cannot be limited merely to the general groups of theists and atheists. Acartia_bogart’s comment applies equally well to any group of any size. And so, by what standard do we measure the actions of the Nazis as a group? Or the Soviet Communist Party in their promotion of Marxism-Lenninism and the rampant suffering and death that atheistic ideology caused? Or, for that matter, the hateful actions of the Westboro Baptist Church? On materialism, there is no standard by which any of these groups can be judged, much less condemned. A materialist can say he disagrees with these things, but he can’t offer any coherent reason for why his opinion should be considered normative or why anyone should feel compelled to submit to it.

Acartia_bogart’s comment was not the only telling one, however. Mark Frank also offered some interesting observations. In discussing the role of a clinical ethicist, he matter-of-factly states in comment #142:

“It is not uncommon for jobs to require people to do things they think immoral.”

To commenter StephenB, who would likely agree that he has strong a priori moral principles due to his belief in objective morality, Mark Frank says in #156:

“My inclination would be to say that someone with strong a priori moral principles such as yourself would be very uncomfortable performing a job which involved setting your own moral principles aside.”

Indeed.

In #171, Mark Frank also says this:

“A moral relativist is perfectly capable of supporting the moral purposes of an organisation – indeed he/she is better equipped to do this than a moral objectivist as this involves making moral decisions relative to the moral framework of the organisation. (In practice moral relativists do have their own views and may find their subjective opinion differs from that of the organisation – but they are likely to find it easier than an obectivist to put aside their moral views and work according to the organisation’s).”

Like Acartia_bogart, Mark’s comments are right on the money. And that’s the problem. If a moral relativist finds himself in a work situation that requires him to act in a way that he deems immoral, what of it? If some situation requires that he set aside his own moral principles and act in a way that runs contrary to them, he need not feel very uncomfortable with this. Certainly he will find it much easier to do so than would a moral objectivist. After all, in casting aside his own moral code in order to operate according to the strictures and liberties of one with which he disagrees, it’s not like the relativist believes he has contravened any objective moral truths. And it seems like a paycheque is as good an impetus as any to toss one’s own relative moral opinions to the wind. Why shouldn’t the moral relativist ignore his own moral views if he deems it to be of worthwhile benefit? It seems to me that the relative ease with which a moral relativist can cast off his own moral constraints ought to be considered a bug of relativism, not a feature.

One of the functions of a moral system is to curb the more ignoble aspects of our imperfect human nature, such as a tendency toward greed and overwhelming self-interest. And yet, how much power can a moral code have to curb such tendencies toward unbalanced self-interest if we believe it is nothing more than a useful fiction that we adhere to because we think it will benefit society at large, which is primarily of importance because that will, in turn, benefit us? Can a moral code have much of a chance to prevent us from acting against the best interests of others for our own gratification if the only rational reason we can see for following it is because it generally and ultimately serves our own interests? Who’s to say that, on any given occasion, we might not prefer to have our cake and eat it, too, choosing to temporarily disregard our moral code for our immediate benefit; especially if we have a reasonable expectation that our actions in the present won’t come back to haunt us in the future? Furthermore, if we decide to do such a thing, who, on the assumption of materialism, can say we have done anything wrong?

It should be noted that the types of comments considered here from Acartia_bogart and Mark Frank are not merely the random opinions of some internet commenters. Box, one of the participants in the discussion, offered a lengthy quote from the well-known atheist, Alex Rosenberg, who is a philosophy professor at Duke University. The quote, which expresses views not remotely unique to Rosenberg, merits duplication here in full.

Taken from Box’s comment (#174):

First, nihilism can’t condemn Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, or those who fomented the Armenian genocide or the Rwandan one. If there is no such thing as “morally forbidden,” then what Mohamed Atta did on September 11, 2001, was not morally forbidden. Of course, it was not permitted either. But still, don’t we want to have grounds to condemn these monsters? Nihilism seems to cut that ground out from under us.

Second, if we admit to being nihilists, then people won’t trust us. We won’t be left alone when there is loose change around. We won’t be relied on to be sure small children stay out of trouble.

Third, and worst of all, if nihilism gets any traction, society will be destroyed. We will find ourselves back in Thomas Hobbes’s famous state of nature, where “the life of man is solitary, mean, nasty, brutish and short.” Surely, we don’t want to be nihilists if we can possibly avoid it. (Or at least, we don’t want the other people around us to be nihilists.)

Scientism can’t avoid nihilism. We need to make the best of it. For our own self-respect, we need to show that nihilism doesn’t have the three problems just mentioned—no grounds to condemn Hitler, lots of reasons for other people to distrust us, and even reasons why no one should trust anyone else. We need to be convinced that these unacceptable outcomes are not ones that atheism and scientism are committed to. Such outcomes would be more than merely a public relations nightmare for scientism. They might prevent us from swallowing nihilism ourselves, and that would start unraveling scientism.

To avoid these outcomes, people have been searching for scientifically respectable justification of morality for least a century and a half. The trouble is that over the same 150 years or so, the reasons for nihilism have continued to mount. Both the failure to find an ethics that everyone can agree on and the scientific explanation of the origin and persistence of moral norms have made nihilism more and more plausible while remaining just as unappetizing.

[A.Rosenberg, The Atheist Guide to Reality, ch.5] – emphasis mine

Scientism, which entails materialism, cannot avoid nihilism. Of course, it is not the reliance on science, per se, that necessitates nihilism. Rather, it is the insistence that science must be strictly materialistic in nature. For at least 150 years, people have been trying to find some rational way to affirm materialism without also affirming a nihilistic moral relativism. They have been trying because, unlike the many cavalier atheists who are typically involved in these discussions across the internet, they realize that it really does matter whether humans believe in the objective reality of binding moral values and duties. It matters so much, in fact, that even atheists like Rosenberg recognize that society itself would be utterly destroyed if the logically necessary implications of materialism were widely accepted. In other words, if atheistic materialism were to prosper and the atheists decided to live in a way that was logically consistent with their basic beliefs about reality, society as we know it would ultimately disappear. And so in Rosenberg we witness an interesting internal conflict in which he is determined to affirm scientism, materialism and nihilism, and yet he can’t quite get over the fact that the actions of people like Hitler seem like they must really be wrong.

Rosenberg also makes another interesting observation. He notes that if people were to recognize the necessary nihilistic implications of scientific materialism and subsequently reject the truth of those implications, materialism, and the scientism it supports, would unravel. I completely agree. People typically like to think that their worldview is in some way logically coherent, but if the premises underlying their worldview lead inevitably to conclusions that they strongly believe are false, contrary to the evidence of their experience, and in conflict with other basic beliefs they hold more strongly and believe are more warranted, then the only reasonable course of action is to accept that one or more of the premises underlying their worldview must be false.

Arguments Against Objective Morality

But is the concept of Objective Morality actually true such that it should rightly overturn Materialism? Might it be that in believing there are at least some things that are really morally wrong we are simply mistaken? For example, in spite of our overwhelming sense that it is really morally wrong to torture and murder a child for fun, could it be that such actions are merely socially unacceptable because they happen to contravene an arbitrary set of behavioural guidelines that have been agreed on by a majority of people in a particular society? Can an argument be made against the reality of any objective moral values and duties – the existence of which most people hold to be self-evident – without first assuming the truth of Materialism as a starting point? During the discussion, Acartia_bogart offered such an argument. Here is what he said:

I accept the fact that theists believe that god provided objective morality is real. But I argue that they are nothing more than a set of rules that various societies over the centuries have established because they are beneficial to an individual’s and a society’s ability to survive and thrive. . . . If morals are truly objective and given by god, why do different religions, and even different sects within the same religion, not have the same objective morals?

As anyone remotely familiar with the debate over the objectivity of morality will recognize, this is the most common argument offered against the idea that morals are truly objective. It is also ill-conceived, because it confuses the issues of moral ontology (the basic existence of moral truths) and moral epistemology (our ability to get to know those moral truths if they exist). That humans may fail to naturally grasp all moral truths perfectly does not necessitate the conclusion that the moral truths are not there to be grasped at all. That humans manage to naturally grasp many moral truths but not all is perfectly consistent with the Judeo-Christian doctrine of mankind’s fall. It is also worth noting that, absent some kind of psychological pathology, humans naturally feel a compulsion to do whatever they happen to think is morally right, whether they happen to be correct or not. Furthermore, unless they have scarred their conscience beyond repair through sustained abuse of it, they will often experience negative psychological and physiological effects when they act in a way that they truly believe is wrong.

That there happen to be differences of opinion over what really is “the good” in some cases, even among theists, only highlights why the theist can reasonably expect some form of moral direction from the Creator of material reality and the ground of moral truths if the theist is right in thinking that such a Being exists, for why would he create a material reality that includes a moral dimension and cause to exist intelligent moral agents such as our ourselves who feel the moral prodding of a conscience if he does not care that we live according to the moral values and duties that he grounds. And if he cares, why would he not aid us in understanding his desires? Christians believe that the Creator has instructed humans in regard to his moral desires and, indeed, when it comes to those individuals and organizations that profess to be Christian but have brought about pain and suffering in various forms at different points in history, including the present, the problem almost universally stems from either ignoring or going beyond the moral dictates in the Bible that Christians admit they ought to follow as their guide. [F/N 4]

And what about the fact that non-Christians and even non-theists are capable of behaving morally or developing useful moral systems that are in many ways similar to Judeo-Christian morality? Does this other common argument somehow undermine the idea that morality is objective and grounded in God? Of course not. For one thing, some such moral systems are actually modeled on the Judeo-Christian framework in the first place, even if they have afterwards excised their own foundation. That, however, is a minor point. The more important one is that this state of affairs is expected under theism because it is believed that God implanted in humanity a natural grasp of his moral laws, even if their ability to discern them (a matter of moral epistemology) has been degraded. In fact, the apostle Paul makes this very point in Romans 2: 14, 15, when he says:

For when people of the nations, who do not have law, do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them, and by their own thoughts they are being accused or even excused.

It should not be expected under theism that humans would be incapable of discerning any moral truths at all without the assistance of an external guide. In fact, they should be expected to naturally grasp a good many such moral truths. However, there are points at which our ability to discern right and wrong breaks down, where issues become grey, and we can sometimes fool ourselves about whether some course of action is truly good or merely in line with our own desires. At these times, a Christian believes the Bible can reliably adjust their thinking onto a proper moral course.

So, in short, the most common arguments against the existence of objective morality that do no simply assume Materialism carry no logical force whatsoever. Rather, the strongest ‘argument’ against the existence of objective moral values and duties remains the mere assumption that materialism is true. That is why Materialism, as a philosophical approach to reality, is so destructive to society and even basic human rights when it is believed in earnest. While it is perfectly possible for a theist to ignore his conscience and for a Christian to disregard the moral guidelines he finds in the Bible, it is also possible to say that, in so doing, the theist has acted in a way that is inconsistent with his most basic beliefs about reality and that his actions are objectively wrong. It is also possible for one theist to rationally reason with another that he really ought to live in accord with certain moral standards; that they are indeed binding upon him. Conversely, within the framework of materialism, no moral system will ever be binding on humans. It will never be capable of rationally grounding any oughts. No matter how well constructed it may seem to be, no matter how useful, any man or woman will always have an absolute defeater near at hand in the form of two simple words: I disagree.

In light of all this, and considering the ultimate importance of this issue and the incredibly negative effects that even thoughtful and informed atheists admit would ensue if the necessary implications of Materialism were widely grasped and accepted, why do so many atheist philosophers and scientists cling to Materialism as a true picture of reality? What is the root of the obsession with naturalism in the sciences? And what evidence and arguments are marshalled in support of the truth of Materialism? Well, if I’m invited back as a guest author in the future, I would like to consider some of these questions.

HeKS

______________________________

FOOTNOTES:

1 Richard Dawkins. River Out of Eden: A Darwinian View of Life (1995)

2 Carl Sagan. Cosmos (1980)

3 George Gaylord Simpson. The Meaning of Evolution (1967)

4 It perhaps needs to be pointed out pre-emptively that Christians are not subject to the guidelines of the Mosaic Law, which, in addition to making plain to the Jews the need for the redemptive power of the promised messiah, was intended to keep them absolutely separate from the morally vile and idolatrous nations that surrounded them so as to prevent contamination by those people, especially in terms of their worship.

Comments
Shoot. I totally posted that in the wrong thread.HeKS
September 16, 2014
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@dr466 #16 . . . deleted on request as cross-threaded, KF HeKS
September 16, 2014
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Hi Heks I am not going to try and pursue every branch of our discussion. It gets out of control. I will stick to one thing.
Sure. I’ve never disagreed with that. But that is a matter that falls under Moral Epistemology. It highlights that how we try to determine what the moral truths really are is also important. My point, though, is that this disagreement does not somehow mean that moral truths don’t really exist at all, which is a question of Moral Ontology.
It doesn’t mean that moral truths don’t exist. But it is a real challenge for you and you can’t avoid it by saying it is epistemology not ontology – the ontological status has epistemological implications.  You have to accept that it is possible that your most vehemently held moral beliefs might be wrong and your emotional involvement, and indeed everyone else’s emotional involvement, is utterly irrelevant. It is just a matter of logic and observation and both of these are fallible. So I ask you – are you willing to accept that you might be wrong all along and the killing of large numbers of people because they are of a different race (note I omitted the word “murder”) is actually morally acceptable?  It is an objective fact and we all might just have made a mistake in our assessment. As a subjectivist I don’t have that problem because when I assert something is evil I am not describing, I am condemning. There is no fact I am reporting so it can’t be wrong. By removing the subjective element from morality you have made it sterile and heartless.Mark Frank
September 16, 2014
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Correction: So, we are in agreement that torturing children is morally wrong, and that is independent of anyone’s beliefs. However, exactly what that means and how we know this is where we disagree.Popperian
September 16, 2014
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@KF Rearding nihilism, see the last quoted paragraph, which addresses this in particular. The assumption that the only other option is to be a disappointed justificationist is simply a false dilemma. In doing so, this perpetuates the very thing you're supposedly against.Popperian
September 16, 2014
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@WJM:
To start, recognizing self-evident moral truths.
I'm suggesting they only seem self evident. We adopt them because they have withstood significant criticism.
No, the “stopping point” of foundationalism isn’t “arbitrary”; it’s where any other premise leads to self-refutation or nonsensical conclusions. For example, starting at the principle of identity, in logic, is not an “arbitrary” premise; it is a necessary premise, without which nothing else can be argued or made sense of.
To say something is needed in a great majority of our explanations is not the same as foundationalism, which says there are basic and non-basic beliefs and that the latter are not subject to criticism. For example, the idea that we actually have actual memories is necessary for us to perform experiments, and therefore a key part of explaining progress in science. But rather than being “self evident”, I’m suggesting we adopt this idea because we currently lack good criticism of it. However, if aliens showed up in orbit and, while sharing technology with us, revealed the details of how memories work, how to implant very realistic yet false experiences, etc., we would have a good criticism of this idea. While we cannot rule out aliens hidden in orbit doing just this, we do not know if this is actually possible, which aliens would be the culprit, what there motivation would be and why they would give us these memories, rather than some other memories. IOW, currently we have good criticisms of the idea of alien memory manipulation and discard it. But this would change in the future should good criticism appear. So, we adopt ideas that we lack significant criticism. I’d also point out that God, supposedly being omnipotent and omniscient, could give us memories about things that could have happened and contain truths we did not know before, but were false in the sense that we didn’t actually experience them. However, I discard the idea of God having done so for the same reasons. Which God? What would be his motivation for doing so? Why those memories, rather than some other memories?, etc. While you might have different reasons, I’m guessing you think God wouldn’t do this, despite supposedly having the ability to do so. If so, you to lack a criticism of the idea that we actually have memories as well.
Similarly, if “torturing children for fun” is not held as necessarily immoral, then anything goes, and there is no use to speak of morality at all, much less debate it. It is self-evidently true that it is immoral to torture children for fun.
You seem to be suggesting that, if we don’t know everything, we know nothing. If there is no court of last appeal, then there is no knowledge at all. This is par for the course. To say there is such a thing as error implies there is such a thing as truth. Objective truth, which we can get closer to. From the same article..
Fallibilism, correctly understood, implies the possibility, not the impossibility, of knowledge, because the very concept of error, if taken seriously, implies that truth exists and can be found. The inherent limitation on human reason, that it can never find solid foundations for ideas, does not constitute any sort of limit on the creation of objective knowledge nor, therefore, on progress. The absence of foundation, whether infallible or probable, is no loss to anyone except tyrants and charlatans, because what the rest of us want from ideas is their content, not their provenance: If your disease has been cured by medical science, and you then become aware that science never proves anything but only disproves theories (and then only tentatively), you do not respond “oh dear, I’ll just have to die, then.” The theory of knowledge is a tightrope that is the only path from A to B, with a long, hard drop for anyone who steps off on one side into “knowledge is impossible, progress is an illusion” or on the other side into “I must be right, or at least probably right.” Indeed, infallibilism and nihilism are twins. Both fail to understand that mistakes are not only inevitable, they are correctable (fallibly). Which is why they both abhor institutions of substantive criticism and error correction, and denigrate rational thought as useless or fraudulent. They both justify the same tyrannies. They both justify each other.
So, we are in agreement that torturing children is morally wrong, and that is undefended of anyone's beliefs. However, what that means and how we know this is where we disagree.Popperian
September 16, 2014
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As to Hitler's thought processes, this is a true account of Hitler's final days. Downfall (2004) - English subtitles - entire movie http://www.metacafe.com/watch/7672421/downfall_2004/ Traudl Junge, the final secretary for Adolf Hitler, tells of the Nazi dictator's final days in his Berlin bunker at the end of WWII.bornagain77
September 16, 2014
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Hey Mark,
I have no insight into Hitler’s thought processes
Well, I suppose you could take my word for it, or you could take some time to research it if it interests you and see what you think. But it's no big secret that Hitler and the Nazi program was highly motivated by Darwinian ideas, Human Evolution and Eugenics.
there are plenty of people you strongly disagree with who certainly do believe in an objective moral order – the 9/11 perpetrators for example. As long as there is genuinely held disagreement on serious moral issues then you have to deal with the fact that you may be wrong about an objective fact (just as many people were wrong about plate tectonics for years).
Sure. I've never disagreed with that. But that is a matter that falls under Moral Epistemology. It highlights that how we try to determine what the moral truths really are is also important. My point, though, is that this disagreement does not somehow mean that moral truths don't really exist at all, which is a question of Moral Ontology. I also think its worth pointing out, however, that even when it comes to the 9/11 perpetrators, the primary disagreement we would have with them is whether their actions constitute "murder", not whether they think murder is objectively wrong. We (you and I) both think what they did was mass murder, and therefore wrong. I think it's objectively wrong, you think its subjectively "wrong", presumably according to some kind of philosophical rationale (though, perhaps more importantly, you seem to feel that it's actually objectively wrong). If they agreed that it actually constituted "mass murder", they would almost certainly agree that it was objectively wrong. The problem, in this case, is not with their sense that murder is objectively wrong, but with the methods they have in place to justify their actions as being something other than murder.
If a moral objectivist both thinks and feels that mass murder is really long, and a moral relativist feels that mass murder is really wrong, and another moral relativist /consequentialist commits mass murder that he may or may not think of as “murder”, what can we conclude?
I absolutely agree there is very little practical difference between an objective fact that most people agree on but not all and a strongly held opinion that most people hold but not all. Which is why my answer to your OP question is – not much.
Well, you're not agreeing with me there, because that's not what I was saying. I wasn't saying that we can't conclude much about whether what we believe about morality is important. I meant we can't really use these scenarios to conclude that Objective Morality doesn't exist. I addressed in an earlier comment (#10) why I don't agree with the reasoning you just used to claim the matter isn't important.
I’m not sure we can conclude very much, except that moral relativists/consequentialists often seem to have a much easier time disregarding the usual proddings of conscience in truly spectacular fashion.
I am not at all sure of that. This requires proof that those who have done serious evil were relativists/consequentialists.
Well, actually, it only requires evidence that a majority of the people who have brought about serious, large scale evil (cause large scale stuff seems to be what we're talking about here, if we're talking about stuff like mass murder) were relativists and/or consequentialists. Or, more relevant to the point of my OP, that a large majority of the suffering and death resulting from evil carried out on a massive scale was perpetrated by moral relativists or consequentialists. For that I submit to you the record of the 20th century. But I hasten to point out that my argument for why it matters has as much to do with the potential for massive scale evil and the things that act as a constraint on it as it does with historical evil (see comment #15).
Incidentally I am not sure why you attach significance to being a consequentialist. They are for the most part objectivists. They believe that certain consequences are objectively right or wrong.
I think you're confusing "right" or "desirable" in a utilitarian and relativist sense with "right" or "good" in a moral objectivist sense. A consequentialist does not necessarily think that a consequence is "good" in the sense that it is in harmony with some objective moral truth, value or duty. In Consequentialism, actions do not have any intrinsic moral value. There are only ends that are desirable and the means that are necessary to achieve them. If the end is desirable, the means are "good", whatever they happen to be, because they contribute to achieving the end. Within a deontological system, on the other hand, actions do have intrinsic moral value, apart from any consideration of the ends they might help to achieve. Someone who adheres to a deontological moral system may, at times, employ a form of consequentialist reasoning to decide, for example, whether the moral good of some end is sufficient to outweigh some comparably minor moral bad that must be perpetrated to achieve it. Nonetheless, it is entirely possible that such a person will decide that the means necessary to bring about the desired goal involve actions with such a high degree of intrinsic evil that they cannot be justified no matter how great the good that is intended by their ultimate goal. Within Consequentialism, that conclusion would basically be incoherent.HeKS
September 16, 2014
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Hi Heks
The point you are trying to make is based on the assumption of “everything else being equal”. In other words, it assumes that what we have here is a mere difference of opinion on what the objective moral truth happens to be, while all the underlying philosophies on both sides of the equation are essentially the same (or close enough that it makes no material difference). But why should we think that’s the case? Why should we think that Hitler truly believed in objective moral values that are binding on humans? Why should we think that he didn’t disregard or suppress the prodding of his conscience for one reason or another? And why should we even think that Hitler viewed what he was doing as “murder”. Hitler’s ethic was, by his own admission, scientific and evolutionary, not religious. His rationale was utilitarian. His moral philosophy was consequentialist in nature rather than deontological. So everything else was not equal.
I have no insight into Hitler’s thought processes but there are plenty of people you strongly disagree with who certainly do believe in an objective moral order – the 9/11 perpetrators for example. As long as there is genuinely held disagreement on serious moral issues then you have to deal with the fact that you may be wrong about an objective fact (just as many people were wrong about plate tectonics for years). If it is an objective fact that mass murder is either right or wrong then we have to accept that one day we might discover it is actually right after all. That is the nature of objective facts. They exist independently of us and we can be wrong for a very long time.
If a moral objectivist both thinks and feels that mass murder is really long, and a moral relativist feels that mass murder is really wrong, and another moral relativist /consequentialist commits mass murder that he may or may not think of as “murder”, what can we conclude?
I absolutely agree there is very little practical difference between an objective fact that most people agree on but not all and a strongly held opinion that most people hold but not all. Which is why my answer to your OP question is – not much.
I’m not sure we can conclude very much, except that moral relativists/consequentialists often seem to have a much easier time disregarding the usual proddings of conscience in truly spectacular fashion.
I am not at all sure of that. This requires proof that those who have done serious evil were relativists/consequentialists. Incidentally I am not sure why you attach significance to being a consequentialist. They are for the most part objectivists. They believe that certain consequences are objectively right or wrong.Mark Frank
September 16, 2014
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Umm, obviously the bit that says, "that mass murder is really long", was supposed to be, "mass murder is really wrong". Not sure what happened there.HeKS
September 16, 2014
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@Mark Frank #65
I am trying to point out a problem with your reasoning or rather assumptions. Let us assume that moral statements are statements about some objective state of affairs and see where it gets us. “Mass murder is evil” is an objective statement. A couple of things about objective statements: 1 ) They are true or false depending some external state of affairs independent of anyone’s feelings or opinions about the subject. 2 ) Because of this anyone is capable of having a false belief about an objective statement. (Compare this to subjective statements such as “I am in pain” which are incorrigible) Therefore “mass murder is evil” is true or false independent of of anyone’s feelings or opinions about the subject and anyone can be wrong about it. Hitler and his subordinates believed mass murder was not evil. You and I believe that mass murder is evil.
Hi Mark, It seems to me there's a bit of an issue here. The point you are trying to make is based on the assumption of "everything else being equal". In other words, it assumes that what we have here is a mere difference of opinion on what the objective moral truth happens to be, while all the underlying philosophies on both sides of the equation are essentially the same (or close enough that it makes no material difference). But why should we think that's the case? Why should we think that Hitler truly believed in objective moral values that are binding on humans? Why should we think that he didn't disregard or suppress the prodding of his conscience for one reason or another? And why should we even think that Hitler viewed what he was doing as "murder". Hitler's ethic was, by his own admission, scientific and evolutionary, not religious. His rationale was utilitarian. His moral philosophy was consequentialist in nature rather than deontological. So everything else was not equal. If a moral objectivist both thinks and feels that mass murder is really long, and a moral relativist feels that mass murder is really wrong, and another moral relativist /consequentialist commits mass murder that he may or may not think of as "murder", what can we conclude? I'm not sure we can conclude very much, except that moral relativists/consequentialists often seem to have a much easier time disregarding the usual proddings of conscience in truly spectacular fashion.HeKS
September 16, 2014
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#64 Phineas
But we all know that Hitler didn’t get it right. If your reasoning arrives at maybe Hitler got it right, then in light of the above, you should realize that your reasoning is suspect.
I am trying to point out a problem with your reasoning or rather assumptions. Let us assume that moral statements are statements about some objective state of affairs and see where it gets us.  “Mass murder is evil” is an objective statement. A couple of things about objective statements: 1 ) They are true or false depending some external state of affairs independent of anyone’s feelings or opinions about the subject.   2 ) Because of this anyone is capable of having a false belief about an objective statement. (Compare this to subjective statements such as “I am in pain” which are incorrigible) Therefore “mass murder is evil” is true or false independent of of anyone’s feelings or opinions about the subject and anyone can be wrong about it. Hitler and his subordinates believed mass murder was not evil.  You and I believe that mass murder is evil. So a ) How do we know we are right and he is wrong?  b) If it turns out we all made a mistake and actually mass murder is not evil then our feelings about it are irrelevant – we have to accept the facts. Now I agree that is a reductio at absurdum. In fact we would all reject the statement “mass murder is not evil”, however good the case that someone made for it, because emotionally we find it totally unacceptable. You accuse subjectivists of reducing morality to a mere matter of human preferences. You reduce it to a matter of who can make the most accurate observation and calculation.
Besides, you seem to have forgotten what you just said: That depends what the objective truth is.
If the objective truth is a God who is able to reliably communicate objective truth to even imperfect people like you, me, and KF, such that we can know Hitler didn’t get it right, there’s a way out of the epistemological morass.
That is true. But that is two assumptions. (1) there is an objective moral code. (2) God communicated it to some people but not others (and on some issues such as abortion he communicated the truth to you but not to me). This requires some evidence other than your conviction you are right!Mark Frank
September 16, 2014
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MF:
That depends what the objective truth is. None of us are perfect so those (including you and KF) who think they know what the objective truth is might have got it wrong. Maybe Hitler got it right?
But we all know that Hitler didn't get it right. If your reasoning arrives at maybe Hitler got it right, then in light of the above, you should realize that your reasoning is suspect. Besides, you seem to have forgotten what you just said: That depends what the objective truth is. If the objective truth is a God who is able to reliably communicate objective truth to even imperfect people like you, me, and KF, such that we can know Hitler didn't get it right, there's a way out of the epistemological morass.Phinehas
September 16, 2014
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Correction @62, on reflection what I wanted to say was this 'As I see it if there is no admission here then you are willingly engaging in error and unreasonably foisting your morally bankrupt world view on my children as though it were infallible, which is the very thing you seem to object to in others.'DillyGill
September 16, 2014
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Popperian @ 47 How well your quote works on so many levels to provide us with plenty of reasons to throw away the whole idea of molecules to man evolution. 'How can we hope to detect and eliminate error?' 'It’s all about error' 'or making the scientific crank reinterpret peer review as a conspiracy to keep falsehoods in place.' I am a simple/common man, and in some ways sympathetic to your views as I have not always been a Christian. I mention that I am a simple/common man mainly because, like KF notes, in a court of law it is the likes of me that you would need to convince. So by your own reckoning we should accept the most simple and basic interpretation of the evidence (in order to avoided your dreaded error) lets say of the fossil record and that would be that the best evidence (the fossils themselves) says the fossil record is young (blood found in the fossils). Are you prepared to say that the best evidence says the fossil record is younger than previously claimed? Or will you claim the infallibility of your own cause? As I see it if there is no admission here then you are willingly engaging in error and unreasonably foisting your morally bankrupt world view on my children. 'Whenever anything demands blind obedience, its ideology contains a claim of infallibility somewhere; but wherever someone believes seriously enough in that infallibility, they rediscover the need for reason to identify and correctly interpret the infallible source' Having followed many debates on here the one belief system that demands blind obedience despite the evidence is that of scientism and materialism as propagated by the evolutionary dept. Also of note though is that I have found shocking some of the actions of God as described in the Bible. One would have to be certain that this really is the will of God before carrying out such actions. The only way the Bible will ever make any sense at all is when you are convinced by the argument that there is sufficient evidence for a designer of life. Taken from that view then I have found, given the utter falseness of the things (molecules to man creation myth) taught to me at school, there is good reason to take the lessons taught in the Bible (a book of patterns and types) very seriously indeed.DillyGill
September 16, 2014
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D: Haiti, Jamaica and Cuba could all learn a few lessons indeed. KFkairosfocus
September 15, 2014
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MF: It is manifestly clear that Hitler did not get it right, as the ghosts of 13 million victims of the direct holocaust, 5 million poles, 25 million Russians and is it 50 - 60 millions overall testify. Your suggestive question, then, bearing in mind track record, boils down to the attempt to de-moralise our thought per the amoral import of a priori evolutionary materialism dressed up in the lab coat. In answer I again -- cf 34 to roding -- bring to bear the studiously ignored historically pivotal case in point, where Locke sought to ground just government in his 2nd treatise on civil gov't. Notice, in Ch 2 thereof, he cites "the judicious [Anglican Canon Richard] Hooker" thusly:
. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man’s hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [[Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [[Eccl. Polity,preface, Bk I, "ch." 8, p.80]
Hooker's pivot on imago dei conferring fundamental equality, and on the premise of moral reciprocity of valuable equals, patently derives from the context that we are made so equally by the inherently goog Creator God, the maximally great, necessary being who is the root and sustainer of reality. I repeat, after centuries of the grounding challenge in light of the IS-OUGHT issue, this remains the only serious candidate capable of being a world foundational IS who grounds OUGHT. The continued pattern of studious ignoring in favour of setting up strawman arguments, speaks sad volumes. KFkairosfocus
September 15, 2014
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#57 Phinehas Just realised there is a bit more to respond to in your comment.
If all the people who implemented their tyranny had been closed to seeing things from another point of view (the tyrannical one) in favor of objective truth (cf. KF @54), the tyranny would have been stopped dead in its tracks.
That depends what the objective truth is. None of us are perfect so those (including you and KF) who think they know what the objective truth is might have got it wrong. Maybe Hitler got it right?Mark Frank
September 15, 2014
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Phinehas I have been through this so many times I wrote up the argument in the link I provided.Mark Frank
September 15, 2014
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MF:
If all the people who implemented their tyranny had been a bit more open to seeing things from another point of view then they would not have succeeded.
On the contrary. If all the people who implemented their tyranny had been closed to seeing things from another point of view (the tyrannical one) in favor of objective truth (cf. KF @54), the tyranny would have been stopped dead in its tracks. Not all views on objective truth are created equal. If that is your point, then it stands without dispute. But at least if it is an objective view, then there are grounds for disputing its truth.Phinehas
September 15, 2014
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MF:
I didn’t mean that a subjectivist would have no reason to pursue their own views on what is right and wrong.
What does it mean for a subjectivist to "pursue" their views? Is this like imposing their preference for chocolate on others? How is it not? Why should the subjectivist's view on what is right and wrong be more compelling or of any more significance than the subjectivist's view on ice cream flavors? Why shouldn't the client feel completely free to respond to the input exactly as they might respond in the case of other tastes? Oh, you like chocolate? Isn't that interesting? I prefer vanilla myself. The subjectivist's view on what is right and wrong seems superfluous whether they are "pursuing" it or not.Phinehas
September 15, 2014
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KF Congratulations with the recent democratic elections in Montserrat, the concession and victory speeches that you provided links to, and the smooth transition you're working on now. A much larger population on a much bigger island on the west end of the very same sea could learn a few important lessons from y'all in Montserrat.Dionisio
September 15, 2014
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P: Since you wish to indict the Judaeo-Christian framework of morality foundational to our culture, in fairness, I present below the most important summary of that framework as presented by its chief teacher: _______________ >> Matthew 5-7New English Translation (NET Bible) The Beatitudes 5 When he saw the crowds, he went up the mountain. After he sat down his disciples came to him. 2 Then he began to teach them by saying: 3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to them. 4 “Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted. 5 “Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. 6 “Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be satisfied. 7 “Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy. 8 “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. 9 “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called the children of God. 10 “Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to them. 11 “Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you and say all kinds of evil things about you falsely on account of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad because your reward is great in heaven, for they persecuted the prophets before you in the same way. Salt and Light 13 “You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its flavor, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trampled on by people. 14 You are the light of the world. A city located on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 People do not light a lamp and put it under a basket but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before people, so that they can see your good deeds and give honor to your Father in heaven. Fulfillment of the Law and Prophets 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have not come to abolish these things but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth pass away not the smallest letter or stroke of a letter will pass from the law until everything takes place. 19 So anyone who breaks one of the least of these commands and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever obeys them and teaches others to do so will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness goes beyond that of the experts in the law and the Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Anger and Murder 21 “You have heard that it was said to an older generation, ‘Do not murder,’ and ‘whoever murders will be subjected to judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that anyone who is angry with a brother will be subjected to judgment. And whoever insults a brother will be brought before the council, and whoever says ‘Fool’ will be sent to fiery hell. 23 So then, if you bring your gift to the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother and then come and present your gift. 25 Reach agreement quickly with your accuser while on the way to court, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge hand you over to the warden, and you will be thrown into prison. 26 I tell you the truth, you will never get out of there until you have paid the last penny! Adultery 27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to desire her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away! It is better to lose one of your members than to have your whole body thrown into hell. 30 If your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away! It is better to lose one of your members than to have your whole body go into hell. Divorce 31 “It was said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife must give her a legal document.’ 32 But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery. Oaths 33 “Again, you have heard that it was said to an older generation, ‘Do not break an oath, but fulfill your vows to the Lord.’ 34 But I say to you, do not take oaths at all—not by heaven, because it is the throne of God, 35 not by earth, because it is his footstool, and not by Jerusalem, because it is the city of the great King. 36 Do not take an oath by your head, because you are not able to make one hair white or black. 37 Let your word be ‘Yes, yes’ or ‘No, no.’ More than this is from the evil one. Retaliation 38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I say to you, do not resist the evildoer. But whoever strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other to him as well. 40 And if someone wants to sue you and to take your tunic, give him your coat also. 41 And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not reject the one who wants to borrow from you. Love for Enemies 43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor’ and ‘hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemy and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be like your Father in heaven, since he causes the sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Even the tax collectors do the same, don’t they? 47 And if you only greet your brothers, what more do you do? Even the Gentiles do the same, don’t they? 48 So then, be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Pure-hearted Giving 6 “Be careful not to display your righteousness merely to be seen by people. Otherwise you have no reward with your Father in heaven. 2 Thus whenever you do charitable giving, do not blow a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in synagogues and on streets so that people will praise them. I tell you the truth, they have their reward. 3 But when you do your giving, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your gift may be in secret. And your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you. Private Prayer 5 “Whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, because they love to pray while standing in synagogues and on street corners so that people can see them. Truly I say to you, they have their reward. 6 But whenever you pray, go into your room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you. 7 When you pray, do not babble repetitiously like the Gentiles, because they think that by their many words they will be heard. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. 9 So pray this way: Our Father in heaven, may your name be honored, 10 may your kingdom come, may your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us today our daily bread, 12 and forgive us our debts, as we ourselves have forgiven our debtors. 13 And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. 14 “For if you forgive others their sins, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others, your Father will not forgive you your sins. Proper Fasting 16 “When you fast, do not look sullen like the hypocrites, for they make their faces unattractive so that people will see them fasting. I tell you the truth, they have their reward. 17 When you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face, 18 so that it will not be obvious to others when you are fasting, but only to your Father who is in secret. And your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you. Lasting Treasure 19 “Do not accumulate for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal. 20 But accumulate for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. 22 “The eye is the lamp of the body. If then your eye is healthy, your whole body will be full of light. 23 But if your eye is diseased, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness! 24 “No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money. Do Not Worry 25 “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink, or about your body, what you will wear. Isn’t there more to life than food and more to the body than clothing? 26 Look at the birds in the sky: They do not sow, or reap, or gather into barns, yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Aren’t you more valuable than they are? 27 And which of you by worrying can add even one hour to his life? 28 Why do you worry about clothing? Think about how the flowers of the field grow; they do not work or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his glory was clothed like one of these! 30 And if this is how God clothes the wild grass, which is here today and tomorrow is tossed into the fire to heat the oven, won’t he clothe you even more, you people of little faith? 31 So then, don’t worry saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear?’ 32 For the unconverted pursue these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But above all pursue his kingdom and righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 So then, do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Today has enough trouble of its own. Do Not Judge 7 “Do not judge so that you will not be judged. 2 For by the standard you judge you will be judged, and the measure you use will be the measure you receive. 3 Why do you see the speck in your brother’s eye, but fail to see the beam of wood in your own? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye,’ while there is a beam in your own? 5 You hypocrite! First remove the beam from your own eye, and then you can see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye. 6 Do not give what is holy to dogs or throw your pearls before pigs; otherwise they will trample them under their feet and turn around and tear you to pieces. Ask, Seek, Knock 7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened for you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. 9 Is there anyone among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you then, although you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12 In everything, treat others as you would want them to treat you, for this fulfills the law and the prophets. The Narrow Gate 13 “Enter through the narrow gate, because the gate is wide and the way is spacious that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 How narrow is the gate and difficult the way that leads to life, and there are few who find it! A Tree and Its Fruit 15 “Watch out for false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are voracious wolves. 16 You will recognize them by their fruit. Grapes are not gathered from thorns or figs from thistles, are they? 17 In the same way, every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree is not able to bear bad fruit, nor a bad tree to bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So then, you will recognize them by their fruit. Judgment of Pretenders 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven—only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22 On that day, many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name, and in your name cast out demons and do many powerful deeds?’ 23 Then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you. Go away from me, you lawbreakers!’ Hearing and Doing 24 “Everyone who hears these words of mine and does them is like a wise man who built his house on rock. 25 The rain fell, the flood came, and the winds beat against that house, but it did not collapse because it had been founded on rock. 26 Everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain fell, the flood came, and the winds beat against that house, and it collapsed; it was utterly destroyed!” 28 When Jesus finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed by his teaching, 29 because he taught them like one who had authority, not like their experts in the law. >> __________________ This is the guiding framework that those who advert to this view have in mind, and it controls how any and all references to ANE tribal feud to the death warfare and the like are to be viewed. If that balance is not struck, the presentation of that framework amounts to a poisonous strawman caricature. KFkairosfocus
September 15, 2014
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@Mark Frank #51 I'll try to get back to you on this tomorrow.HeKS
September 15, 2014
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@Popperian #39 Please see my response here: www.uncommondescent.com/atheism/reply-to-an-argument-against-objective-morality-when-words-lose-all-meaning/HeKS
September 15, 2014
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Heks I just noticed this. I don’t want to get drawn into the whole objective/subjective discussion yet again. But there are two points worth making. * When I wrote that
In practice moral relativists do have their own views and may find their subjective opinion differs from that of the organisation – but they are likely to find it easier than an objectivist to put aside their moral views and work according to the organisation’s
I didn’t mean that a subjectivist would have no reason to pursue their own views on what is right and wrong. As I repeatedly assert and no one ever attempts to refute “Subjective” does not mean trivial (or irrational). It is just that a subjectivist might find it easier to see another point of view.   * I agree that the fact that objectivists disagree is not evidence for or against the correctness of objective morality (this is not a question to be solved by observation – it is not an empirical enquiry it is a philosophical one). However the fact is extremely relevant to your main question – Does it matter? Is there any practical difference between an objective fact of which we cannot be sure of the truth, or a subjective opinion on which most of us agree?  I suggest that the final result is much the same. A core of common agreement with lots of differences around the margin and in some cases. The old argument round Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc re-emerges. But all these tyrants got away with it because they were able to convince a lot of people they were objectively right and therefore it did not matter about the victims because they were objectively wrong. These people did not preach nihilism. They preached a cause. (Whether they themselves believed that cause I am not sure – and may vary from one to  another). If all the people who implemented their tyranny had been a bit more open to seeing things from another point of view then they would not have succeeded.Mark Frank
September 15, 2014
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F/N: For reference, Greenleaf: >> Evidence, in legal acceptation, includes all the means by which any alleged matter of fact, the truth of which is submitted to investigation, is established or disproved . . . None but mathematical truth is susceptible of that high degree of evidence, called demonstration, which excludes all possibility of error [--> Greenleaf wrote almost 100 years before Godel], and which, therefore, may reasonably be required in support of every mathematical deduction. Matters of fact are proved by moral evidence alone; by which is meant, not only that kind of evidence which is employed on subjects connected with moral conduct, but all the evidence which is not obtained either from intuition, or from demonstration. In the ordinary affairs of life, we do not require demonstrative evidence, because it is not consistent with the nature of the subject, and to insist upon it would be unreasonable and absurd. The most that can be affirmed of such things, is, that there is no reasonable doubt concerning them. The true question, therefore, in trials of fact, is not whether it is possible that the testimony may be false, but, whether there is sufficient probability of its truth; that is, whether the facts are shown by competent and satisfactory evidence. Things established by competent and satisfactory evidence are said to be proved. By competent evidence, is meant that which the very-nature of the thing to be proved requires, as the fit and appropriate proof in the particular case, such as the production of a writing, where its contents are the subject of inquiry. By satisfactory evidence, which is sometimes called sufficient evidence, is intended that amount of proof, which ordinarily satisfies an unprejudiced mind, beyond reasonable doubt. The circumstances which will amount to this degree of proof can never be previously defined; the only legal test of which they are susceptible, is their sufficiency to satisfy the mind and conscience of a common man; and so to convince him, that he would venture to act upon that conviction, in matters of the highest concern and importance to his own interest. [A Treatise on Evidence, Vol I, 11th edn. (Boston: Little, Brown, 1888) ch 1., sections 1 and 2. Shorter paragraphs added. (NB: Greenleaf was a founder of the modern Harvard Law School and is regarded as a founding father of the modern Anglophone school of thought on evidence, in large part on the strength of this classic work.)] >>kairosfocus
September 14, 2014
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PS: Please do not import distractive debates about Popper here, and do not set up strawman targets about knowledge, knowability and degrees of warrant or certainty; the matters linked to nihilism from the OP on are far too soberingly challenging for that. I suggest to you that first reality is distinct from knowability and that exists across a spectrum of degree of warrant balanced with responsibility; where the long since known real world relevant weak-form sense of knowledge has been:
KNOWLEDGE -- warranted, credibly true belief.
In key cases the degree of warrant and the circumstances are such that one would be irresponsible to dismiss or act as though the point of such "weak form" knowledge is false. (I here allude to the opening chapters of Greenleaf on Evidence, a refreshing antidote to ever so many common errors of our time.) This is termed moral certainty for several good reasons, and it brings out that morality is connected to knowledge. Where also that which is true says of what is that it is and of what is not, that it is not. (Onlookers, kindly cf here (and here on) for discussions on relevant points.)kairosfocus
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P: I have a government transition dealing with, so not a lot of time. Pardon short, sharp:
From Alcibiades and co, to Robespierre, the rape of Belgium, Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro and co, NIHILISM is an issue. So also is the grounding of core rights, starting with life [from conception and implantation to natural death], liberty, innocent repute, liberty to pursue one's purpose and calling, property and more . . .
It is history and the moans of over 100 million ghosts of victims of evolutionary materialism shaped scientism turned into ruthless state policy (not counting hundreds of millions of victims of abortion on demand . . . ) that put the grounding of morality at the centre of focus. Sorry, the attempt to ignore the sheer weight of that horrific history is not good enough by a long shot. In fact, I put it to you that that attempt itself reflects the creeping influence of the radical relativisation and nihilism that Plato put on the table 2350 years ago in The Laws, Bk X. Which have been cited any number of times by way of if we refuse to learn from history we are doomed to repeat it's worst aspects, and just as repeatedly willfully ignored or distracted from. This is a deadly serious matter, far too serious for clever rhetorical games. There is an IS-OUGHT gap, and there is but one level where it can be resolved: a world-foundational IS capable of bearing the awesome weight of a genuine OUGHT. With, after centuries, just one serious candidate on the table . . . the inherently good, creator God, a maximally Great and Necessary being, the root and sustainer of reality. 100 million ghosts are telling us that we had better solidly answer to NIHILISM. To head off definitionitis:
ni·hil·ism (n-lzm, n-) n. 1. Philosophy a. An extreme form of skepticism that denies all existence. b. A doctrine holding that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated. 2. Rejection of all distinctions in moral or religious value and a willingness to repudiate all previous theories of morality or religious belief. 3. The belief that destruction of existing political or social institutions is necessary for future improvement. 4. also Nihilism A diffuse, revolutionary movement of mid 19th-century Russia that scorned authority and tradition and believed in reason, materialism, and radical change in society and government through terrorism and assassination. 5. Psychiatry A delusion, experienced in some mental disorders, that the world or one's mind, body, or self does not exist. [Latin nihil, nothing; see ne in Indo-European roots + -ism.] nihil·ist n. nihil·istic adj. nihil·isti·cal·ly adv. The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
Got to get some rest to prep for the policy war already in progress -- the entrenched power classes have already signalled no we will not allow a honeymoon period, early on the morrow. And with implications of the Scottish independence vote on the 18th looming. Oh, the ever present march of folly! KFkairosfocus
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@KF Perhaps I should backtrack a bit.. The complaint is regarding a grounding or foundation for morality without theism. But this makes the assumption that this is a reasonable or even desirable demand. I’m suggesting it’s not reasonable given progress we’ve made in epistemology. Furthermore, I’m explaining the same observations with a unified theory of conjecture and criticism. From this article on unknowability.
This logic of fallibility, discovered and rediscovered from time to time, has had profound salutary effects in the history of ideas. Whenever anything demands blind obedience, its ideology contains a claim of infallibility somewhere; but wherever someone believes seriously enough in that infallibility, they rediscover the need for reason to identify and correctly interpret the infallible source. Thus the sages of ancient Judaism were led, by the assumption of the Bible’s infallibility, to develop their tradition of critical discussion. And in an apparently remote application of the same logic, the British constitutional doctrine of “parliamentary sovereignty” was used by 20th-century judges such as Lord Denning to develop an institution of judicial review similar to that which, in the United States, had grown out of the opposite doctrine of “separation of powers.” Fallibilism has practical consequences for the methodology and administration of science, and in government, law, education, and every aspect of public life. The philosopher Karl Popper elaborated on many of these. He wrote:5
The question about the sources of our knowledge . . . has always been asked in the spirit of: ‘What are the best sources of our knowledge—the most reliable ones, those which will not lead us into error, and those to which we can and must turn, in case of doubt, as the last court of appeal?’ I propose to assume, instead, that no such ideal sources exist—no more than ideal rulers—and that all ‘sources’ are liable to lead us into error at times. And I propose to replace, therefore, the question of the sources of our knowledge by the entirely different question: ‘How can we hope to detect and eliminate error?’
It’s all about error. We used to think that there was a way to organize ourselves that would minimize errors. This is an infallibilist chimera that has been part of every tyranny since time immemorial, from the “divine right of kings” to centralized economic planning. And it is implemented by many patterns of thought that protect misconceptions in individual minds, making someone blind to evidence that he isn’t Napoleon, or making the scientific crank reinterpret peer review as a conspiracy to keep falsehoods in place. Popper’s answer is: We can hope to detect and eliminate error if we set up traditions of criticism—substantive criticism, directed at the content of ideas, not their sources, and directed at whether they solve the problems that they purport to solve. Here is another apparent paradox, for a tradition is a set of ideas that stay the same, while criticism is an attempt to change ideas. But there is no contradiction. Our systems of checks and balances are steeped in traditions—such as freedom of speech and of the press, elections, and parliamentary procedures, the values behind concepts of contract and of tort—that survive not because they are deferred to but precisely because they are not: They themselves are continually criticized, and either survive criticism (which allows them to be adopted without deference) or are improved (for example, when the franchise is extended, or slavery abolished). Democracy, in this conception, is not a system for enforcing obedience to the authority of the majority. In the bigger picture, it is a mechanism for promoting the creation of consent, by creating objectively better ideas, by eliminating errors from existing ones.
I think there is an objective morality, just as there is objective knowledge in other spheres. But we do not have infallible access to it. However, I do not think we share the same definition of “objective morality”. Note: this follows the same thought experiment Popper made in his book Objective Knowledge.
Experiment (1). All our machines and tools are destroyed, and all our subjective learning, including our subjective knowledge of machines and tools, and how to use them. But libraries and our capacity to learn from them survive. Clearly, after much suffering, our world may get going again. Experiment (2). As before, machines and tools are destroyed, and our subjective learning, including our subjective knowledge of machines and tools, and how to use them. But this time, all libraries are destroyed also, so that our capacity to learn from books becomes useless. If you think about these two experiments, the reality, significance, and degree of autonomy of the third world (as well as its effects on the second and first worlds) may perhaps become a little clearer to you. For in the second case, there will be no re-emergence of our civilization for many millennia.” Karl Popper, ‘Objective Knowledge – An Evolutionary Approach’.
Now replace knowledge of machines and tools with moral knowledge. Are you suggesting we wouldn’t see the same sort of results? This is why I pointed out historical progress we made in moral spheres, which includes criticism of moral duties in the old testament timeframe.Popperian
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