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DOES IT MATTER WHAT WE BELIEVE ABOUT MORALITY? (A guest-post by HeKS)

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A recent post by Barry Arrington started an interesting and lively discussion about morality, whether it is objective and, if so, how it might be grounded. Barry provided the job description for a clinical ethicist and then asked how a materialist could apply for such a job in good faith, given the inability of the materialist to ground his moral and ethical views in anything more solid, objective and enduring than his own subjective opinions and the opinions of his fellow materialists.

In the ensuing discussion, it seemed that many attempts were made to divert attention away from the core issue that materialism can offer no ultimate grounding for objective moral values and duties. Instead, comments were made in which certain persons recast the original question as a claim that atheists are incapable of behaving morally, or that all atheists personally believe that there is no such thing as right and wrong.

Of course, this is not at all what was claimed. It is manifestly false that all atheists personally believe there is no such thing as right and wrong. And nobody with any sense doubts that atheists are perfectly capable of behaving morally and ethically if they so desire. The point, rather, is that the atheist who believes there really is such a thing as right and wrong, good and bad, is incapable of providing a rational basis for his belief, and the atheist who chooses to behave morally is incapable of offering any rational argument for why anybody else should feel compelled to do so if they are not similarly inclined.

After all, if Richard Dawkins is right when he says that we live in a universe that has, at bottom, “nothing but blind pitiless indifference,”[F/N 1] why should we disagree with him when he declares in the same breath that there is also “no evil and no good”? If all of reality is absolutely reducible to mindless matter and energy, why should we expect that it would have any moral aspect at all? There is nothing about a quark, an atom, or any other constituent or conglomeration of matter in any configuration than can account for the real existence of any moral law by which we humans might be bound. Why should reality contain a set of objective moral values and duties that ought to compel the behaviour of humans if they are nothing more than relatively advanced primates living “on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe” [F/N 2] and are the end result of a “meaningless and purposeless process (i.e. naturalistic evolution) that did not have [them] in mind”? [F/N 3] The very notion is absurd.

Why Does it Matter?

A casual observer presented with these facts might well ask why any of this really matters. And, indeed, why does it even matter? Does it make any difference whether morality is objective or merely subjective? And does it matter whether we believe in the objectivity of morality?

Interestingly, the atheist participants in the discussion succeeded in offering some good arguments for why a belief in the objectivity of moral values and duties really does make a difference, even if they may have done so unintentionally.

For example, in comment #34, Acartia_bogart said this:

“Nobody, including theists, can objectively demonstrate that anybody’s morality is superior than anybody else’s.”

When Barry pointed out to him that he had just “effectively demonstrated the point of the [original post]” (#36), Acartia_bogart adjusted his claim in comment #41 to say that instead of referring to “anybody” he should have said “any group”, such that his claim can be understood like this:

‘Nobody, including theists, can objectively demonstrate that any group’s (e.g. atheists or theists) morality is superior to any other group’s morality.’

Of course, on materialism, Acartia_bogart is absolutely right, but the substitution of a group in place of an individual does nothing to lessen his confirmation of Barry’s original point. In reality, not only is it not possible on materialism to objectively demonstrate (or even argue) that the morality of one group is better or worse than another, but it is impossible to objectively demonstrate that the morality of any group or person is either good or bad at all, because there is no objective standard against which their morality can be measured. Furthermore, this observation cannot be limited merely to the general groups of theists and atheists. Acartia_bogart’s comment applies equally well to any group of any size. And so, by what standard do we measure the actions of the Nazis as a group? Or the Soviet Communist Party in their promotion of Marxism-Lenninism and the rampant suffering and death that atheistic ideology caused? Or, for that matter, the hateful actions of the Westboro Baptist Church? On materialism, there is no standard by which any of these groups can be judged, much less condemned. A materialist can say he disagrees with these things, but he can’t offer any coherent reason for why his opinion should be considered normative or why anyone should feel compelled to submit to it.

Acartia_bogart’s comment was not the only telling one, however. Mark Frank also offered some interesting observations. In discussing the role of a clinical ethicist, he matter-of-factly states in comment #142:

“It is not uncommon for jobs to require people to do things they think immoral.”

To commenter StephenB, who would likely agree that he has strong a priori moral principles due to his belief in objective morality, Mark Frank says in #156:

“My inclination would be to say that someone with strong a priori moral principles such as yourself would be very uncomfortable performing a job which involved setting your own moral principles aside.”

Indeed.

In #171, Mark Frank also says this:

“A moral relativist is perfectly capable of supporting the moral purposes of an organisation – indeed he/she is better equipped to do this than a moral objectivist as this involves making moral decisions relative to the moral framework of the organisation. (In practice moral relativists do have their own views and may find their subjective opinion differs from that of the organisation – but they are likely to find it easier than an obectivist to put aside their moral views and work according to the organisation’s).”

Like Acartia_bogart, Mark’s comments are right on the money. And that’s the problem. If a moral relativist finds himself in a work situation that requires him to act in a way that he deems immoral, what of it? If some situation requires that he set aside his own moral principles and act in a way that runs contrary to them, he need not feel very uncomfortable with this. Certainly he will find it much easier to do so than would a moral objectivist. After all, in casting aside his own moral code in order to operate according to the strictures and liberties of one with which he disagrees, it’s not like the relativist believes he has contravened any objective moral truths. And it seems like a paycheque is as good an impetus as any to toss one’s own relative moral opinions to the wind. Why shouldn’t the moral relativist ignore his own moral views if he deems it to be of worthwhile benefit? It seems to me that the relative ease with which a moral relativist can cast off his own moral constraints ought to be considered a bug of relativism, not a feature.

One of the functions of a moral system is to curb the more ignoble aspects of our imperfect human nature, such as a tendency toward greed and overwhelming self-interest. And yet, how much power can a moral code have to curb such tendencies toward unbalanced self-interest if we believe it is nothing more than a useful fiction that we adhere to because we think it will benefit society at large, which is primarily of importance because that will, in turn, benefit us? Can a moral code have much of a chance to prevent us from acting against the best interests of others for our own gratification if the only rational reason we can see for following it is because it generally and ultimately serves our own interests? Who’s to say that, on any given occasion, we might not prefer to have our cake and eat it, too, choosing to temporarily disregard our moral code for our immediate benefit; especially if we have a reasonable expectation that our actions in the present won’t come back to haunt us in the future? Furthermore, if we decide to do such a thing, who, on the assumption of materialism, can say we have done anything wrong?

It should be noted that the types of comments considered here from Acartia_bogart and Mark Frank are not merely the random opinions of some internet commenters. Box, one of the participants in the discussion, offered a lengthy quote from the well-known atheist, Alex Rosenberg, who is a philosophy professor at Duke University. The quote, which expresses views not remotely unique to Rosenberg, merits duplication here in full.

Taken from Box’s comment (#174):

First, nihilism can’t condemn Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, or those who fomented the Armenian genocide or the Rwandan one. If there is no such thing as “morally forbidden,” then what Mohamed Atta did on September 11, 2001, was not morally forbidden. Of course, it was not permitted either. But still, don’t we want to have grounds to condemn these monsters? Nihilism seems to cut that ground out from under us.

Second, if we admit to being nihilists, then people won’t trust us. We won’t be left alone when there is loose change around. We won’t be relied on to be sure small children stay out of trouble.

Third, and worst of all, if nihilism gets any traction, society will be destroyed. We will find ourselves back in Thomas Hobbes’s famous state of nature, where “the life of man is solitary, mean, nasty, brutish and short.” Surely, we don’t want to be nihilists if we can possibly avoid it. (Or at least, we don’t want the other people around us to be nihilists.)

Scientism can’t avoid nihilism. We need to make the best of it. For our own self-respect, we need to show that nihilism doesn’t have the three problems just mentioned—no grounds to condemn Hitler, lots of reasons for other people to distrust us, and even reasons why no one should trust anyone else. We need to be convinced that these unacceptable outcomes are not ones that atheism and scientism are committed to. Such outcomes would be more than merely a public relations nightmare for scientism. They might prevent us from swallowing nihilism ourselves, and that would start unraveling scientism.

To avoid these outcomes, people have been searching for scientifically respectable justification of morality for least a century and a half. The trouble is that over the same 150 years or so, the reasons for nihilism have continued to mount. Both the failure to find an ethics that everyone can agree on and the scientific explanation of the origin and persistence of moral norms have made nihilism more and more plausible while remaining just as unappetizing.

[A.Rosenberg, The Atheist Guide to Reality, ch.5] – emphasis mine

Scientism, which entails materialism, cannot avoid nihilism. Of course, it is not the reliance on science, per se, that necessitates nihilism. Rather, it is the insistence that science must be strictly materialistic in nature. For at least 150 years, people have been trying to find some rational way to affirm materialism without also affirming a nihilistic moral relativism. They have been trying because, unlike the many cavalier atheists who are typically involved in these discussions across the internet, they realize that it really does matter whether humans believe in the objective reality of binding moral values and duties. It matters so much, in fact, that even atheists like Rosenberg recognize that society itself would be utterly destroyed if the logically necessary implications of materialism were widely accepted. In other words, if atheistic materialism were to prosper and the atheists decided to live in a way that was logically consistent with their basic beliefs about reality, society as we know it would ultimately disappear. And so in Rosenberg we witness an interesting internal conflict in which he is determined to affirm scientism, materialism and nihilism, and yet he can’t quite get over the fact that the actions of people like Hitler seem like they must really be wrong.

Rosenberg also makes another interesting observation. He notes that if people were to recognize the necessary nihilistic implications of scientific materialism and subsequently reject the truth of those implications, materialism, and the scientism it supports, would unravel. I completely agree. People typically like to think that their worldview is in some way logically coherent, but if the premises underlying their worldview lead inevitably to conclusions that they strongly believe are false, contrary to the evidence of their experience, and in conflict with other basic beliefs they hold more strongly and believe are more warranted, then the only reasonable course of action is to accept that one or more of the premises underlying their worldview must be false.

Arguments Against Objective Morality

But is the concept of Objective Morality actually true such that it should rightly overturn Materialism? Might it be that in believing there are at least some things that are really morally wrong we are simply mistaken? For example, in spite of our overwhelming sense that it is really morally wrong to torture and murder a child for fun, could it be that such actions are merely socially unacceptable because they happen to contravene an arbitrary set of behavioural guidelines that have been agreed on by a majority of people in a particular society? Can an argument be made against the reality of any objective moral values and duties – the existence of which most people hold to be self-evident – without first assuming the truth of Materialism as a starting point? During the discussion, Acartia_bogart offered such an argument. Here is what he said:

I accept the fact that theists believe that god provided objective morality is real. But I argue that they are nothing more than a set of rules that various societies over the centuries have established because they are beneficial to an individual’s and a society’s ability to survive and thrive. . . . If morals are truly objective and given by god, why do different religions, and even different sects within the same religion, not have the same objective morals?

As anyone remotely familiar with the debate over the objectivity of morality will recognize, this is the most common argument offered against the idea that morals are truly objective. It is also ill-conceived, because it confuses the issues of moral ontology (the basic existence of moral truths) and moral epistemology (our ability to get to know those moral truths if they exist). That humans may fail to naturally grasp all moral truths perfectly does not necessitate the conclusion that the moral truths are not there to be grasped at all. That humans manage to naturally grasp many moral truths but not all is perfectly consistent with the Judeo-Christian doctrine of mankind’s fall. It is also worth noting that, absent some kind of psychological pathology, humans naturally feel a compulsion to do whatever they happen to think is morally right, whether they happen to be correct or not. Furthermore, unless they have scarred their conscience beyond repair through sustained abuse of it, they will often experience negative psychological and physiological effects when they act in a way that they truly believe is wrong.

That there happen to be differences of opinion over what really is “the good” in some cases, even among theists, only highlights why the theist can reasonably expect some form of moral direction from the Creator of material reality and the ground of moral truths if the theist is right in thinking that such a Being exists, for why would he create a material reality that includes a moral dimension and cause to exist intelligent moral agents such as our ourselves who feel the moral prodding of a conscience if he does not care that we live according to the moral values and duties that he grounds. And if he cares, why would he not aid us in understanding his desires? Christians believe that the Creator has instructed humans in regard to his moral desires and, indeed, when it comes to those individuals and organizations that profess to be Christian but have brought about pain and suffering in various forms at different points in history, including the present, the problem almost universally stems from either ignoring or going beyond the moral dictates in the Bible that Christians admit they ought to follow as their guide. [F/N 4]

And what about the fact that non-Christians and even non-theists are capable of behaving morally or developing useful moral systems that are in many ways similar to Judeo-Christian morality? Does this other common argument somehow undermine the idea that morality is objective and grounded in God? Of course not. For one thing, some such moral systems are actually modeled on the Judeo-Christian framework in the first place, even if they have afterwards excised their own foundation. That, however, is a minor point. The more important one is that this state of affairs is expected under theism because it is believed that God implanted in humanity a natural grasp of his moral laws, even if their ability to discern them (a matter of moral epistemology) has been degraded. In fact, the apostle Paul makes this very point in Romans 2: 14, 15, when he says:

For when people of the nations, who do not have law, do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them, and by their own thoughts they are being accused or even excused.

It should not be expected under theism that humans would be incapable of discerning any moral truths at all without the assistance of an external guide. In fact, they should be expected to naturally grasp a good many such moral truths. However, there are points at which our ability to discern right and wrong breaks down, where issues become grey, and we can sometimes fool ourselves about whether some course of action is truly good or merely in line with our own desires. At these times, a Christian believes the Bible can reliably adjust their thinking onto a proper moral course.

So, in short, the most common arguments against the existence of objective morality that do no simply assume Materialism carry no logical force whatsoever. Rather, the strongest ‘argument’ against the existence of objective moral values and duties remains the mere assumption that materialism is true. That is why Materialism, as a philosophical approach to reality, is so destructive to society and even basic human rights when it is believed in earnest. While it is perfectly possible for a theist to ignore his conscience and for a Christian to disregard the moral guidelines he finds in the Bible, it is also possible to say that, in so doing, the theist has acted in a way that is inconsistent with his most basic beliefs about reality and that his actions are objectively wrong. It is also possible for one theist to rationally reason with another that he really ought to live in accord with certain moral standards; that they are indeed binding upon him. Conversely, within the framework of materialism, no moral system will ever be binding on humans. It will never be capable of rationally grounding any oughts. No matter how well constructed it may seem to be, no matter how useful, any man or woman will always have an absolute defeater near at hand in the form of two simple words: I disagree.

In light of all this, and considering the ultimate importance of this issue and the incredibly negative effects that even thoughtful and informed atheists admit would ensue if the necessary implications of Materialism were widely grasped and accepted, why do so many atheist philosophers and scientists cling to Materialism as a true picture of reality? What is the root of the obsession with naturalism in the sciences? And what evidence and arguments are marshalled in support of the truth of Materialism? Well, if I’m invited back as a guest author in the future, I would like to consider some of these questions.

HeKS

______________________________

FOOTNOTES:

1 Richard Dawkins. River Out of Eden: A Darwinian View of Life (1995)

2 Carl Sagan. Cosmos (1980)

3 George Gaylord Simpson. The Meaning of Evolution (1967)

4 It perhaps needs to be pointed out pre-emptively that Christians are not subject to the guidelines of the Mosaic Law, which, in addition to making plain to the Jews the need for the redemptive power of the promised messiah, was intended to keep them absolutely separate from the morally vile and idolatrous nations that surrounded them so as to prevent contamination by those people, especially in terms of their worship.

Comments
Popperian said:
Before one could actually apply any set of objective moral principles, wouldn’t this necessitate a way by which one could actually know what those objective moral principles are?
To start, recognizing self-evident moral truths.
This appears to be a sort of foundationalism. However, one major criticism of foundationalism is that where one chooses to stop, and therefore what one choose to consider not subject to criticism, is arbitrary.
No, the "stopping point" of foundationalism isn't "arbitrary"; it's where any other premise leads to self-refutation or nonsensical conclusions. For example, starting at the principle of identity, in logic, is not an "arbitrary" premise; it is a necessary premise, without which nothing else can be argued or made sense of. Similarly, if "torturing children for fun" is not held as necessarily immoral, then anything goes, and there is no use to speak of morality at all, much less debate it. It is self-evidently true that it is immoral to torture children for fun.
As pointed out, we cannot positively justify any moral principle, but we can criticize the idea of torturing an innocent child and discard it.
You don't positively justify a self-evidently true/necessarily true premise; you use it to justify other statements or conclusions. Without a foundation of some sort, by what non-arbitrary means would you "criticize" any moral statement? Why should anyone accept criticism that has no presumed objective basis whatsoever?
However, given current day knowledge of the impact of those choices on people, would we accept this sort of behavior today from, well, anyone?
You say this as if "impact of choices on people" is necessarily a component of morality, and as if others should recognize some kinds of "impacts" as "less moral" than others, as if there was some sort of standard you expect us to evaluate from. As I have said before, moral subjectivists cannot help but imply an objective moral standard even when they argue against it. If you were a real moral subjectivist, why do you bother even arguing about it? Who cares? What difference does it make?William J Murray
September 14, 2014
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F/N 2: By the award of posting privilege, HeKS has obviously been invited to further post in the strongest possible way. KFkairosfocus
September 14, 2014
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F/N: I think it would help keep us on focus and on track to re-read the OP, which is excellent. Also, we need to highlight the IS-OUGHT gap, the grounding challenge to relativist views and particularly evolutionary materialist scientism. Which also requires exposing the fatal fallacy at the heart of scientism. And, let us note (in light of the history over the past 100 years of the impacts of scientism-influenced nihilisms) the serious issues underscored by Rosenberg. KFkairosfocus
September 14, 2014
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P: While that you comment is appreciated, it would be helpful if you were to acquaint yourself with the state of play, e.g. cf here at 34 above, where the matter you open up with -- what are we talking about -- is directly addressed in answer to roding's remarks -- by way of an historically influential case in point. One, with roots 2300 years ago and which has been foundational to the rise of modern liberty and democracy for over 300 years, indeed it is strongly alluded to in the US DOI of 1776 in Para 2 so "of this no man is ignorant." KF PS: On the critique of "foundationalism," I would say that stopping from using a terminology does not make the matter go away, we are still finite, fallible, boundedly rational creatures and do have to stop somewhere. The issue of vicious circularity and question-begging is addressed through open-ended, reasonable discussion on comparative difficulties across live options, in respect of factual adequacy, coherence and explanatory power and balance . . . elegant and powerful, neither simplistic nor an ad hoc patchwork forever patching up leaks. As an example, a belief spider-web rests on anchor lines anchored to a base, and Neurath's raft rests on the ocean and the associated laws of floatation so even if always under repair there is a necessary issue of foundational adequacy or else it goes down blub, blub, blub. (And if you are of the school of Kantian Naturalist, that was long since pointed out to that worthy here at UD.) On the grounding of morality the IS_OUGHT gap challenge is pivotal, and post Hume it can only be answered at the root or foundational level of the ordered system of reality. Laying out in skeletal form:
P1: Either we are not bound by OUGHT or else there is a world-foundational IS that properly grounds OUGHT P2: We are inescapably bound by OUGHT, we are morally governed creatures P3: In particular, we find ourselves to have basic rights that are linked to our status, value and worth as human beings P4: Where, such rights are inherently morally loaded expectations and demands that we be respected in light of such core status, value and worth ____________________________ C5: There is an IS at the foundation of the world that grounds OUGHT C6: Where, on centuries of discussion, the only serious candidate is the inherently good, creator God who is a maximally great and necessary being, who has given us ability to perceive and respond to moral constraints.
We may ignore and dismiss this, but only at the price of undermining moral foundations. In the case of evolutionary materialism, as the OP so powerfully points out, that is so. PPS: For now, I am going to be exceptionally busy supporting the transition into office of the newly elected premier of Montserrat.kairosfocus
September 14, 2014
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@Popperian #39 I'll try to get a response to you tomorrow.HeKS
September 13, 2014
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Andre #2 Beautiful post and C S Lewis quote, Andre. Morality is fundamental to the life of faith, yet still only a part of its beauty.Axel
September 13, 2014
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@anthropic #38 Good points. I agree.HeKS
September 13, 2014
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HeKS, Think of it this way... Before one could actually apply any set of objective moral principles, wouldn't this necessitate a way by which one could actually know what those objective moral principles are?
As for the truth of the existence of objective morality, I’m of the opinion that belief in objective morality is properly basic, in the same way that it’s properly basic to believe in the existence of external minds and the reality of the past.
This appears to be a sort of foundationalism. However, one major criticism of foundationalism is that where one chooses to stop, and therefore what one choose to consider not subject to criticism, is arbitrary. So, rather than having basic and non-basic beliefs, a better, simpler explanation is that we adopt ideas that we do not have significant criticism of. And, I'm suggesting that moral ideas are subject to this same process of rational criticism, just like all other ideas. IOW, conjecture and criticism, in one form or another, is our best, current explanation for the universal growth of knowledge in brains, books and even genes. For example, you wrote...
Furthermore, I tend to agree with this comment from the atheist Peter Cave:
“whatever sceptical arguments may be brought against our belief that killing the innocent is morally wrong, we are more certain that the killing is morally wrong than that the argument is sound… Torturing an innocent child for the sheer fun of it is morally wrong. Full stop.”
As pointed out, we cannot positively justify any moral principle, but we can criticize the idea of torturing an innocent child and discard it. To illustrate, according to the Bible, God also supposedly punishes women by causing their womb to miscarriage, drowned children in the flood, threaten to kill all the first born in Egypt if the Israelites are not released, but then hardens the heart of the Pharaoh and makes good on his promise, teaches the use of a "bitter water" as a sort test/punishment to abort a fetus conceived through infidelity and commands the death of children and non-virgin women of peoples that are "enemies" of his chosen people. However, given current day knowledge of the impact of those choices on people, would we accept this sort of behavior today from, well, anyone? If God needed to start over, he could have made those not chosen to survive simply disappear rather than die a horrible death by drowning. In fact, God will supposedly make people disappear during the rapture. The same could be said of commands to slaughter and kill Midianite, Samaria, Tappuah and Amalek children and pregnant women. In the case of the latter, think of the PTSD these men would have due to their actions towards children! How would this impact their behavior towards their own children? The authors of the Bible simply didn't have this sort of understanding about war, the impact it had on those that wage it, alternatives choices we would now consider, including those available to a "just" God, etc. The best explanation for moral progress is that we guess about which responses we could make in a given situation, guess which of those are the most moral, then criticize them. It's an iterative, error correcting process, not a process of justification. In fact, I'd suggest that the idea that we have somehow have obtained one, unchanging set of moral principles is, in of itself, immoral as It doesn't take into account what we know, or the lack there of, and changing conditions, etc. To deny that we can make progress is bad philosophy. Evil is the lack of knowledge because the laws of physics are really not that onerous to what we really want. For example, as far as we know, the laws of physics do not prohibit the transfer of an unwanted fetus into a woman who wants a child or even creating an artificial womb. As such the only thing preventing us from doing so is knowing how. This is not to say this wouldn't lead to new problems to solve, but it would render abortion unnecessary. Why doesn't God, being all knowing, divinely reveal the knowledge of how to do these things, avoiding the problem all together; as opposed to merely divinely revealing not to abort children, which he would have done quite poorly. If God supposedly "programmed" us to already objectively know not to abort children anyway, why repeat the same thing, rather than provide a soluiton? Having set out to actually solve this problem and, by the sweat of our own brows, create the knowledge of how to solve it, wouldn't that make us more moral than God?Popperian
September 13, 2014
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While I agree that materialism and scientism lead to ethical nihilism, with all that entails, it should be noted that some religions do the same. For instance, my nephew has embraced Hinduism. His dad, my brother, was perplexed as to what this entailed, so I asked the young man what the moral difference was between Hitler and Mother Teresa. He replied like any good monist, "There is no difference morally." And the whole might equals right idea is endorsed by Islam. God is Power and Will, not Love, Reason, or Justice. I'd add that, in my opinion, many of the Health and Wealth prosperity gospel churches verge on the same way of thinking. For them, success (money, house, fancy clothes, expensive car, trophy wife) equates with God's approval. This makes it very easy to justify doing whatever it takes for success...anthropic
September 13, 2014
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F/N: Here is a summary, by its principal teacher, of the heart of Judaeo-Christian framework for theistic ethics. Notice the emphasis on the principle of neighbour-love and transforming purity in heart, thought, motive, attitude, speech and deed backed up by willingness to peacefully suffer abuse rather than be waspish balanced in turn by self examination and mutual encouragement in the way of the truth and the right. KFkairosfocus
September 13, 2014
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@Acartia_bogart #28 You said:
HeKs, I believe in complements when they are justified. Your presentation of my points (and probably Mark’s as well) were presented objectively and with respect. And even though I disagree with the rational you used to counter them, they were also presented with respect. As you know, that is not always the case here.
In relation to that bold statement, I just want to make sure a particular point is clear. In responding in the OP to arguments against the existence of objective morality, including one that came from you, my comments should not be understood as if they were intended to be a positive argument for the existence of objective morality. Rather, the point I was making was that they are not logically compelling defeaters of the existence of objective morality or the theistic / Christian view of morality, since the state of affairs mentioned in those arguments that attempt to defeat the existence of objective theistic morality are actually perfectly logically consistent with the objective theistic morality position and are actually even expected under it, as can be seen by the fact that they are explicitly stated as expectations in the Bible. So, having said that, and assuming that was clear to you at the time you read the OP, I guess I'm a little unclear on what rationale you disagree with. Do you mean to say that you are convinced that arguments like the one you mentioned really are logically compelling, in the sense that the state of affairs they cite are somehow logically incompatible with the existence of objective morality even though they are explicitly predicted under the Christian model and even though the argument happens to conflate two different areas of moral philosophy? As for the truth of the existence of objective morality, I'm of the opinion that belief in objective morality is properly basic, in the same way that it's properly basic to believe in the existence of external minds and the reality of the past. Furthermore, I tend to agree with this comment from the atheist Peter Cave:
"whatever sceptical arguments may be brought against our belief that killing the innocent is morally wrong, we are more certain that the killing is morally wrong than that the argument is sound… Torturing an innocent child for the sheer fun of it is morally wrong. Full stop."
HeKS
September 13, 2014
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@Roding #33 I was trying to accurately describe those different issues within moral philosophy. Moral Ontology is about the basic existence of moral truths, which would include the question of whether they really exist as truths at all. Moral Epistemology is about gaining knowledge about morality, including getting to know what the moral truths are, though such knowledge of moral truths can obviously only be attained if they exist in the first place. In other words, I was trying to describe these different issues of moral philosophy without doing so in such a way that necessarily stacked the deck in my favor to imply the entire field of moral philosophy already agrees with my view that morality really is objective. But yes, you're right that if you believe morality is objective, as I do, then you will necessarily believe that moral truths really exist. Nonetheless, no, the fact of their existence would not make it logically necessary that you be able to list all of them, and certainly not just as a result of intuition. That's why Moral Ontology and Moral Epistemology really are two distinct issues.HeKS
September 13, 2014
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roding, Let's try an historically pivotal "list[ing]," how Locke set out to ground the principles on which modern liberty and self government by a free people were built . . . the basis for the sort of peaceful revolution by ballot box that happened here day before to yesterday. He did so in his famed 2nd treatise on civil gov't, Ch 2, by thusly quoting "the judicious [Anglican Canon Richard] Hooker" in his 1594+ Ecclesiastical Polity, who in turn was pointing to Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics, with echoes of both the Judaeo-Christian Scriptures and Justinian's Corpus Juris Civilis:
. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man's hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [[Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [[Eccl. Polity,preface, Bk I, "ch." 8, p.80]
Echoes in the US DOI of 1776 and the US Constitution of 1787, are not coincidental. Ditto, in Blackstone on the Laws of England, etc. And of course, there are echoes enough in the OP. KFkairosfocus
September 13, 2014
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...It is also ill-conceived, because it confuses the issues of moral ontology (the basic existence of moral truths) and moral epistemology (our ability to get to know those moral truths if they exist).
I guess I am a bit puzzled by this. What do you mean by "...those moral truths if they exist"? Isn't the point of objective morality that they must exist? Shouldn't it be possible to list them?roding
September 12, 2014
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Mung: "A_b is somewhat of a magician. Waving with one hand to attract the attention while hiding the absence of substantive response in the other hand and hoping the audience doesn’t notice." Damn, I didn't know that I had these super powers. I compliment HeKs on a very well written OP and people jump all over me. I criticize Barry for posting an OP that doesn't allow any dissenting opinion, And he jumps all over me. I post a comment about how amazing ciliates are, and I get jumped on. HeKs, regardless of what Mung and a handful of others may say, my comments were sincere.Acartia_bogart
September 12, 2014
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HeKS, I'll get back to you when Arcatia_bogart addresses the argument rather than handing out a compliment (not to be confused with a complement). A_b is somewhat of a magician. Waving with one hand to attract the attention while hiding the absence of substantive response in the other hand and hoping the audience doesn't notice. Good luckMung
September 12, 2014
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@Phinehas #20 I think I better understand your point now. I took your comment about parity to be related to your comment about how bad behavior from theists "undermines our argument for objective morality and its benefit to society", such that there was a kind of parity between moral objectivity and subjectivity in terms of their potential effects on society. Your clarification makes more sense to me now.HeKS
September 12, 2014
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@Acartia_bogart #28 Fair enough, and that's appreciated. I won't deny that I have at times gotten a little frustrated in debates and offered some pretty pointed criticisms of my opponent's tactics and sometimes their intellect, or at least their intellectual honesty. Still, I think I can pretty honestly say that I've tried to avoid that until I've charitably extended every benefit of the doubt that I could possibly manage, and often even more than I felt was reasonable. I find that approach helps me stay intellectually honest, because it doesn't give me any easy outs when faced with opposing arguments. Instead it forces me to spend my time on research and proper reasoning and to directly interact with what my opponent says.HeKS
September 12, 2014
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HeKs, I believe in complements when they are justified. Your presentation of my points (and probably Mark's as well) were presented objectively and with respect. And even though I disagree with the rational you used to counter them, they were also presented with respect. As you know, that is not always the case here. I may disagree with you in the future (OK, who am I kidding? We both know that I will disagree with you) but I will try to be just as respectful.Acartia_bogart
September 12, 2014
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HeKS, you are more charitable than I in giving the benefit of doubt. I saw A_B's post as more of a barb directed at Barry, but you are right to have taken it at face value.Phinehas
September 12, 2014
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@Acartia_bogart #18 Thank you. I appreciate your commendation. I'm not sure one's intellectual opponent could pay him a much higher compliment than to say he has treated the other side's arguments fairly.HeKS
September 12, 2014
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@Mung #22 Not to get all preachy, but while I fully appreciate your ultimate point, should Acartia_bogart's politeness really be met with derision? I think your point could be presented with equal power in a slightly more attractive package.HeKS
September 12, 2014
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PS: The linked threads show that the grounding issue was never adequately addressed, and that there was in effect an evasion of the issue of nihilism, not a sober addressing much less a solution. The very problematic remarks by Alex Rosenberg as clipped in the OP document the problem at a much more serious level than the proverbial random Internet Atheist. The persistent absence of a sober and solid response to this should give us all pause, given the ghosts of 100million victims of the problem of nihilism influenced by radically secularised scientism and evolutionary materialism linked cultures across the past 100 years. And not to mention say the ongoing abortion holocaust.kairosfocus
September 12, 2014
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Response to OP: Part 1 - on objective morals.... Seems to me if a person simply defines an objective desired condition they want to achieve. Then they can from there describe without opinion (i.e. objectively) what set of rules are that would achieve that condition. Perhaps, this can be their objective morality. But there seems to be no way to claim an absolute morality as a materialist. One other caveat with that morality might be that if it is purely objective, there would likely always be some contradictions to what one really desires and thus refining needing to be done. This all merely a tentative or merely cursory thought on the matter. Part 2 - on absolute morals.... Theists can account for it. Materialists can not. Atheists can try to by invoking a Plutonic "form of the good", but this clearly doesn't bode well for their worldview. But assume absolute morality is the case, and actually exists. And that it is b/c God is omniscient and God is good (i.e. is in the sense that God is the standard). Then is it possible for atheists or materialists to truly be moral? For example, it seems to me that it would be immoral to disobey a good God's command to have no gods before Him or to have idols. Why? Because...well.. that would be wrong. And isn't being moral about doing what is right? ... So, the point would be that it might be possible to create one's on moral standard in (see #1 above). And it might be ok in how we interact with other people or maybe even creatures. But if it's incomplete (lacking the absolutes), then it seems to me that it wouldn't a sufficient moral framework. Granted, at the man to man level, such a framework might be constructable, but given God is good... then that man-to-man moral framework can't be morally complete without including God's instructions or commands.JGuy
September 12, 2014
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A_b rarely fails to bring a smile to my lips.
I must commend you on accurately and respectfully presented summary of both sides of the argument.
Why? Why should HeKS be commended? As if "an accurately and respectfully presented summary of both sides of the argument" OUGHT to be how OP's are written. And over in another thread A_b whines as if Barry OUGHT NOT write an OP in a certain way. Hilarious. Really.Mung
September 12, 2014
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An atheist who hasn't read Sarte is like a Christian who hasn't read the Gospels.Mung
September 12, 2014
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HeKS @10: I think we are mostly in violent agreement. Ideas are dangerous and have consequences. Eric Harris was indeed just paying attention. As a point of clarity, however, I'd like to address this:
Finally, I don’t think the things you mention really bring moral objectivism and relativism to a kind of parity at all.
It was not my intention to imply that there is any parity between moral objectivism and relativism. My intention was to say that there is a kind of parity between people, whether Jew, gentile, theist, or atheist, as highlighted by none other than the Apostle Paul.
Romans 3:10-18 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.” “Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit.” “The poison of vipers is on their lips.” “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery mark their ways, and the way of peace they do not know.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
The only immoral equivalency I am referencing is that referenced in Scripture. You said:
What we need to worry about is people really believing the implications of materialism.
I absolutely agree. I was only trying to point out that this is not the only thing we need to worry about. We also need to worry about people really believing the implications of theism. And if we do that with a bit more consistency, our platform for arguing the difference it makes becomes that much stronger.Phinehas
September 12, 2014
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A_b: The core challenge on the table is the grounding of morality on evolutionary materialist premises. Kindly, address it. KFkairosfocus
September 12, 2014
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Barry #11:
None came close to answering the question: If materialism is true, isn’t it rational for a materialist to act like a psychopath?
Not true. It was answered several times. Just because you disagree with the answer doesn't mean that it wasn't answered. HeKs, even though I disagree with some of your conclusions, I must commend you on accurately and respectfully presented summary of both sides of the argument. I look forward to reading more of your posts.Acartia_bogart
September 12, 2014
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KF, Yes, precisely right on the "No True Scotsman" comment. The claim that some course of action belies a person's claim to being a Christian is not an arbitrary one invented after the fact. In order to claim to be a Christian, one must meet a least a minimal set of requirements explicitly set out in the Bible that define what Christianity is. If you never adhere to those minimal requirements you are never really a Christian. If at some point you purposefully stop adhering to them then you stop being a Christian. To say that someone is truly a Christian merely because they profess to be one or associate with others who do is like saying that someone truly becomes a Scotsman if he asserts that he likes kilts. Of course, this is not to suggest that we should somehow suspiciously doubt a person's sincerity in identifying themselves as a Christian by default, but we must recognize that they have the ability to show by a sustained course of action that they are not Christians in their hearts.HeKS
September 12, 2014
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