Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Understanding self-evidence (with a bit of help from Aquinas . . . )

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A plumbline
A plumbline tells whether a wall is true (straight) and plumb (accurately vertical)

It seems that one of the pivotal issues in reasoned thinking about design-related questions — and in general —  is the question of self-evident first, certain truths that can serve as a plumb-line for testing other truth claims, and indeed for rationality.

(Where, the laws of identity, non-contradiction and excluded middle are foremost among such first principles. And where also, some ID objectors profess to be “frightened” that some of us dare to hold that there are moral truths that are self evident.)

Where also of course, self-evident does not merely mean perceived as obvious to oneself, which could indeed be a manifestation of a delusion. Nay, a self evident truth [SET] is best summarised as one known to be so and to be necessarily so without further proof from other things.

That is, a SET is:

a: actually true — it accurately reports some relevant feature of reality (e.g.: error exists)

b: immediately recognised as true once one actually understands what is being asserted, in light of our conscious experience of the world (as in, no reasonable person would but recognise the reality that error exists)

c: further seen as something that must be true, on pain of patent absurdity on attempted denial. (E.g. try denying “error exists” . . . the absurdity is rapidly, forcefully manifest)

I think Aquinas has a few helpful words for us:

Now a thing is said to be self-evident in two ways: first, in itself; secondly, in relation to us. Any proposition is said to be self-evident in itself, if its predicate is contained in the notion of the subject: although, to one who knows not the definition of the subject, it happens that such a proposition is not self-evident. For instance, this proposition, “Man is a rational being,” is, in its very nature, self-evident, since who says “man,” says “a rational being”: and yet to one who knows not what a man is, this proposition is not self-evident. Hence it is that, as Boethius says (De Hebdom.), certain axioms or propositions are universally self-evident to all; and such are those propositions whose terms are known to all, as, “Every whole is greater than its part,” and, “Things equal to one and the same are equal to one another.” But some propositions are self-evident only to the wise, who understand the meaning of the terms of such propositions . . . .

Now a certain order is to be found in those things that are apprehended universally. For that which, before aught else, falls under apprehension, is “being,” the notion of which is included in all things whatsoever a man apprehends. Wherefore the first indemonstrable principle is that “the same thing cannot be affirmed and denied at the same time,” which is based on the notion of “being” and “not-being”: and on this principle all others are based, as is stated in Metaph. iv, text. 9.

In short, we have two facets here, First, standing by itself a SET has an objective character and is a first principle, a point of certain knowledge. But, that brings up the second aspect: we need to understand it, that we may grasp it. And, that may well fail, primarily by way of ignorance, secondarily by way of commitment to a contrary ideology that makes it difficult or even nearly impossible to acknowledge that which on the actual merits is self-evident.

How can we address the problem?

By understanding the significance of how rejecting a SET ends in absurdity. Which may be by outright obvious logical contradiction, or by undermining rationality or by being chaotically destructive and/or senseless. Moral SETs are usually seen as self evident in this latter sense.

For instance, by way of laying down a benchmark, let us take the SET that has been so often put here at UD, by way of underscoring vital moral hazards connected to evolutionary materialism (which entails that there are no objective foundations for morality, as many leading Darwinists have acknowledged on the record), to wit:

MORAL YARDSTICK 1: it is Self-Evidently True that it would be wrong to kidnap, torture, rape and murder a child. With corollary, that if such is in progress we are duty-bound to intervene to save the child from the monster.

It will be observed that essentially no-one dares to explicitly deny this, or its direct corollary. That is because such denial would put one in the category of supporting a blatant monster like Nero. Instead, the tendency is to try to push this into the world of tastes, preferences, feelings and community views. Such a view may indeed reflect such, but it is more, it asserts boldly that here is an OUGHT that one denies being bound by, on pain of absurdity. Which of course, further points to our world being a reality grounded in an IS adequate to sustain OUGHT, i.e. we are under moral government.

But, that is not all.

Let us again note Dr Richard Dawkins on the record, in Scientific American, August 1995:

Nature is not cruel, only pitilessly indifferent. This lesson is one of the hardest for humans to learn. We cannot accept that things might be neither good nor evil, neither cruel nor kind, but simply callous: indifferent to all suffering, lacking all purpose [–> It escapes Dr Dawkins that we may have good reason for refusing this implication of his favoured ideological evolutionary materialism] . . . .

In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won’t find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but pitiless indifference [–> As in open admission of utter amorality that opens the door to nihilism] . . . . DNA neither cares nor knows. DNA just is. And we dance to its music. [“God’s Utility Function,” Sci. Am. Aug 1995, pp. 80 – 85.]

This is right in the heart of the science and society issues that rage over Darwinism and wider evolutionary materialist origins thought. Where, let us again remind ourselves, we must frankly and squarely face how Dr Richard Lewontin went on record also:

. . . the problem is to get [people] to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world, the demons that exist only in their imaginations, and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth [[–> NB: this is a knowledge claim about knowledge and its possible sources, i.e. it is a claim in philosophy not science; it is thus self-refuting]. . . . To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists, it is self-evident [[–> actually, science and its knowledge claims are plainly not immediately and necessarily true on pain of absurdity, to one who understands them; this is another logical error, begging the question , confused for real self-evidence; whereby a claim shows itself not just true but true on pain of patent absurdity if one tries to deny it . . ] that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality, and that, in contrast, the demon-haunted world rests on a set of beliefs and behaviors that fail every reasonable test  [[–> i.e. an assertion that tellingly reveals a hostile mindset, not a warranted claim] . . . .

It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [[–> another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [[–> i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. [From: “Billions and Billions of Demons,” NYRB, January 9, 1997. Bold emphasis and notes added. ]

These are smoking gun admissions as to the nature, prior commitments [viewed as self evident! . . . but actually only question-begging . . . ] and consequences of evolutionary materialist ideology, regardless of whether or not it is dressed up in the proverbial lab coat.

And, just as it is legitimate to confront a priori materialist impositions on the methods and conclusions of origins science  it is equally in order to raise serious questions on the moral implications of such ideologies and the way they irreconcilably conflict with yardstick cases of self evident moral truth.

Let us look back at that child.

S/he has no physical prowess to impose his or her will. S/he has no eloquence to persuade a demonic Nero-like monster to stop from brutally despoiling and destructive sick pleasures. S/he is essentially helpless. And yet, our consciences speak loud and clear, giving an insight that this ought not to be done, yea even, if we see such in progress we ought to intervene to rescue if we can, how we can.

Is that voice of conscience delusional, a mere survival trait that leads us to perceive an ought as a binding obligation where there is no such, or it is merely the perceived threat of being caught by superior state power or the like?

We already know from great reformers that the state can be in the wrong, though often that was taught at fearsome cost. (Nero’s vicious persecutions being themselves evidence in point.)

And, if one is imagining that a major aspect of mindedness is delusional, where does that stop?

In short, once the premise of general delusion of our key mental faculties is introduced we are in an infinite regress of Plato’s cave worlds. If we say we identify delusion A, who is to say but this is delusion B, thence C, D, E and so forth?

Plato's Cave of shadow shows projected before life-long prisoners and confused for reality. Once the concept of general delusion is introduced, it raises the question of an infinite regress of delusions. The sensible response is to see that this should lead us to doubt the doubter and insist that our senses be viewed as generally reliable unless they are specifically shown defective. (Source: University of Fort Hare, SA, Phil. Dept.)
Plato’s Cave of shadow shows projected before life-long prisoners and confused for reality. Once the concept of general delusion is introduced, it raises the question of an infinite regress of delusions. The sensible response is to see that this should lead us to doubt the doubter and insist that our senses be viewed as generally reliable unless they are specifically shown defective. (Source: University of Fort Hare, SA, Phil. Dept.)

{U/D Dec 4:}  A video adaptation (one that is closely accurate to the text of The Republic):

[youtube UQfRdl3GTw4]

So, we see the cogency of UD’s own WJM as he has argued:

If you do not [acknowledge] the law of non-contradiction, you have nothing to argue about. If you do not [admit] the principles of sound reason, you have nothing to argue with. If you do not [recognise] libertarian free will, you have no one to argue against. If you do not [accept] morality to be an objective commodity, you have no reason to argue in the first place.

In short, resort to dismissing key mental capacities as general delusion is a morass, a self-refuting fallacy.  (Which is different from, whether one may be in specific error and even a great many may be in specific error. Indeed, if we look at the original Plato’s Cave parable, it side-steps that by pointing to the one man who is set free and recognises the apparatus of manipulation for what it is, then, having been led to see more widely, returns to try to help; only to face the power of a mass delusion rooted in an evident error that is clung to.)

Instead, we should respect the general capacity of our mental faculties, recognising their strengths as well as limitations, and how playing the general delusion card is self referentially incoherent and absurd.

There is absolutely no good reason to assume or brazenly assert or insinuate that our insight on moral yardstick 1, is delusional. We have instead every good reason to hold that we are morally governed, with conscience as a faculty of mind that serves that government, though it may be dulled or become defective or may be in error on specific points. (Much as is so for vision and hearing, etc.)

So, let us follow up:

1 –> Per MY # 1 etc., we see — on pain of absurdity if we try to deny — that there are self-evident moral truths, entailing that we are under the moral government of OUGHT.

2 –> Where by MY # 1, the little child has moral equality, quasi-infinite worth and equal dignity with us as fellow human beings, a status that immediately is inextricably entangled with that s/he has core rights that we OUGHT to respect: her or his life, liberty, personhood, etc.

3 –> So, we are under moral government, which requires a world in which OUGHT rests on a foundational IS that can bear its weight.

4 –> And, I am very aware of the dismissals of and debates regarding “foundationalism” out there {U/D Dec 02: link added with adjustments, “foundationalism” was there all along . . . }, on closer inspection we can readily see that our worldviews and arguments are invariably dependent on finitely distant start points on which the systems of thought or reasoning must stand:

A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way}
A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way

5 –> So, also, we confront the challenge that –  there is just one serious candidate for such a  reality-foundational IS that can bear the weight of OUGHT: the inherently good eternal Creator God, whose precepts and principles will be evidently sound from . . . moral yardstick self evident truths.

6 –> Where also we can highlight the framework of such truths in the context of civil society and government, by citing a pivotal historical case or two.  First, that when he set out to ground the principles of what would become modern liberty and democracy, John Locke cited “the judicious [anglican canon Richard] Hooker” in Ch 2 Sect 5 of his second essay on civil government, thusly:

. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man’s hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [[Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [[Eccl. Polity,preface, Bk I, “ch.” 8, p.80, cf. here. Emphasis added.]

7 –> Less than a hundred years later, this was powerfully echoed in the appeal to self evident moral truths in the US Declaration of Independence of 1776:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, [cf Rom 1:18 – 21, 2:14 – 15], that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. –That [–> still, held self-evident!] to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government [–> right of judicious reformation and innovation, if necessary backed by the right of just revolution in the face of unyielding tyranny when remonstrance fails and threats or actual violence manifest in “a long train of abuses and usurpations” indicates an intent of unlimited despotism . . . ], laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security . . .

8 –> Those who would therefore seek to poison the well and the atmosphere for discussion on such matters, need to first pause and soberly address these historically decisive cases.

_______________

Therefore, the amorality of evolutionary materialist ideology stands exposed as absurd in the face of self-evident moral truths. Where, such moral yardsticks imply that we are under government of OUGHT, leading onward to the issue that there is only one serious explanation for our finding ourselves living in such a world — a theistic one. END

Comments
G2: It seems you are only irresponsibly snipping out of context and sniping to try to score debate points. That speaks volumes, especially in the context at hand. First, you know or full well should know the higher law to which civil laws answer in light of the example of Nuremberg. The defense was, we are following orders of lawful superiors in accord with the laws of our community so who are you to judge us save as conquerors imposing their will by force. In short, radical relativism ends in the nihilism of might makes right. The answer to that was, there is a higher law to which we all answer and which we all know, the law of our nature as manifest in fundamental rights; which Germany under the Nazi regime grossly violated leading to 60 million dead, including 11 - 13 millions massacred in the holocaust, 6 million Jews, 3 million non-Jewish Poles, Gypsies and many others. Also including 20 - 25 million Russians. less than 6 millions of whom perished on the battlefield as combattants. The same higher law manifest in the implications of the self-evidently true Moral Yardstick #1 that you continue to duck and dodge, G2:
MORAL YARDSTICK 1: it is Self-Evidently True that it would be wrong to kidnap, torture, rape and murder a child. With corollary, that if such is in progress we are duty-bound to intervene to save the child from the monster.
The same law of our nature that you continue to duck and dodge which led Locke to cite canon Hooker thusly in Ch 2 sect 5 of his 2nd essay on civil gov't, to ground liberty and justice for all in the community:
. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man’s hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [[Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [[Eccl. Polity, preface, Bk I, "ch." 8, p.80]
In short, you are hoping to distract attention and poison the atmosphere through insistently resorting to irresponsible rhetorical tactics in the teeth of repeated correction. That speaks volumes on your want of an answer on the merits for self-evident moral truth that points to our being under moral government. And yet, as MY#1 and other like cases show, we know ourselves to be under moral government. This means we live in a world where we have rights (and thus neighbourly duties of care to one another . . . including per the Good Samaritan, across lines of culture, hostility and enmity) that manifest that OUGHT is real and binding. So also, we live in a world that in its roots has an IS that can bear the weight of such OUGHT. Where, in the end, the verdict of thousands of years of debate and thought is in: the only serious candidate to be such an IS is the inherently good, eternal Creator-God, our Lord and dread judge. To whom you are obviously violently hostile and projective of resentment of being under legitimate authority. When I therefore see you pushing "theocracy" smear-points in future, I will -- for cause -- translate thusly:
I, G2, resent legitimate authority and am bound up in worldviews and cultural agendas that undermine legitimate rights and duties tied to our nature, dignity, value and quasi-infinite worth as human beings. Such radically relativist views lead me to imply that might and manipulation make 'right.' This is the credo of nihilism, which has a horrific track record. However, I don't care, I just want to do as I please in a community that upholds me in doing as I please without recognising the sort of fixed limits manifest in self-evident moral truths tied to our equal nature and worth, regardless of want of might or capability to manipulate. Yes, my views are absurd, but it is ever so easy to distract attention by pretending that light is darkness and darkness light, and especially by flinging false accusations of "theocracy" as well as willfully ignoring lessons of history and right reason. I want my own way, and I don't care!
G2, do you like the self-portrait you are painting? I doubt it. Why not take a pause, look seriously in the mirror, and make a positive change? KFkairosfocus
December 1, 2013
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SB
In matters of politics and civil law, we will be ruled either by tyrannical men or by universally-binding principles.
This is clearly not true. Virtually all democracies are not ruled by universally-binding principles but by messy compromises, what “sells” and the peculiarities of the political system. The result may be inefficient,  some of the laws and practices may be unacceptable to much of the population, but it is not tyranny. The Economist Intelligence Unit lists 25 full democracies: Norway, Sweden, Iceland, Denmark, New Zealand, Australia, Switzerland, Canada, Finland, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Austria, Ireland, Germany, Malta, United Kingdom, Czech Republic, Uruguay, Mauritius, South Korea, United States of America, Costa Rica, Japan, Belgium, Spain They differ on major moral issues such as abortion, homosexuality, and the death penalty but none of them are tyrannies.Mark Frank
December 1, 2013
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What ever religion or whatever law is followed, no jury in the world will ever acquit anyone who kills a baby. Period. We should refrain from interpreting every aspect of our life in terms of scriptures. We already have many of a particular religion who are blowing up people because of that.selvaRajan
December 1, 2013
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SB: So if you & I disagree on some moral issue, (eg: is it OK to display Playboy magazines in public places), who is right ? Which of us is truly in touch with the 'higher law' ?Graham2
December 1, 2013
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Graham2
What I see here is complete arrogance, ‘my morality is right’.
The Natural Moral Law is not "my" morality. It is the same morality alluded to in the The United States Declaration of Independence. Do you find that document "scary?"
It is superior to civil law, superior to all religions (except mine of course), and I will do all I can to see that it prevails.
If you do not understand that the civil law, any civil law, is always based on a higher law of some kind, then I cannot help you.StephenB
December 1, 2013
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SB: I will make it a bit clearer: What I see here is complete arrogance, 'my morality is right'. It is superior to civil law, superior to all religions (except mine of course), and I will do all I can to see that it prevails. Do you have any idea how frightening this sounds ?Graham2
December 1, 2013
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Graham2
What you are talking about, with a straight face apparantly, is theocracy.
Not even close. The Natural Moral Law is the safeguard against theocracy. You are simply misinformed.
Then I noticed this: persuading those of other religions to embrace our own belief system
Of course. If advocate of religion A cannot persuade advocate of religion B to convert, he should then just leave him alone. Tyrants don't exhort or use persuasion. They say, "Convert to my religion or I will hurt you or even kill you." It is unfortunate that you cannot grasp the difference.StephenB
December 1, 2013
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WJM
IMO, command morality is no better than, and is as dangerous as, subjective morality. Command authority morailty = “might makes right” writ large.
I agree completely. I am totally against Divine Command authority and would not argue on that basis. That is why Islam's doctrine of "abrogation" (God can change his mind about right and wrong on a whim) is irrational. I also agree that it would be just as bad as subjectivism. Both are just different variations of might makes right. If the Natural Moral Law is not flexible enough to fit into the Old Testament, then I cannot make a case.StephenB
December 1, 2013
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KF: The higher law, yeah, right. And whos 'higher law' ? ... why yours of course.Graham2
December 1, 2013
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buffalo, There are delusional people that do evil things they believe are commanded by god. It is my position that because of the capacity of humans to err, and err in horrible, delusional ways, that if we believe god is telling us to torture infants for fun (go against what we know to be self-evidently, and/or obviously true, and/or necessarily true), we must say "this cannot be from god" and instead hold that we are in error. StephenB, IMO, command morality is no better than, and is as dangerous as, subjective morality. Command authority morailty = "might makes right" writ large.William J Murray
December 1, 2013
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PPPS: It is also worth the while of giving SB's context in 56:
In defense of the Natural Moral Law, I would simply point out that we have no other source with which we can arbitrate between secular and religious disagreements. In matters of politics and civil law, we will be ruled either by tyrannical men or by universally-binding principles. In religious matters, we will either fight each other to the death over theological issues, or we will rally around self-evident moral truths. [--> and kindly recall MY #1 above and where it points, directly away from "might and manipulation make 'right' . . . "] Third options are not available. If we cannot agree on a basic and universal foundation for morality, then we are forever doomed to a war of all against all. Once we do establish our rational foundation however, we can exert our influence through the power of argument, persuading those of other religions to embrace our own belief system and holding our secular leaders accountable to the same moral principles that we must obey. If someone can come up with a better suggestion, please bring it forward.
Can G2 give me any good reason not to conclude that he set up a strawman by playing at snip and snipe tactics?kairosfocus
December 1, 2013
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PPS: Apart from, the nihilist's creed: might and manipulation make 'right.'kairosfocus
December 1, 2013
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PS: G2 and others plainly need to be reminded yet again of the substance of that higher law. Let me yet again cite what G2 and ilk are ever so desperate to smear, the cited passage Locke used in his second essay on civil govt, Ch 2, from "the judicious [anglican canon Richard] Hooker" as the pivot for grounding what would become modern liberty and democracy:
. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man’s hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [[Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [[Eccl. Polity, preface, Bk I, "ch." 8, p.80]
On saddening track record, I predict that G2 and ilk will continue to studiously avoid such substance, as it does not fit their smear agenda. I hope he proves me wrong, but I am not holding my breath. And, we need to ask such -- given that genuine rights are a manifestation of this same pattern of oughts tracing to the inherent value and worth of the individual human being (resting on our common nature), what foundational IS they propose capable of bearing the weight of such OUGHTs. KFkairosfocus
December 1, 2013
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G2: Kindly remember the basis for judgement at Nuremberg -- there is a higher law, the law of our nature, that should be respected by our civil law and those charged to enforce it. Or, such civil laws all too easily become institutionalised injustice or worse enshrined under false colour of law. So, kindly drop the long since past sell-by date "theocracy" smear points. KFkairosfocus
December 1, 2013
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WJM @45 It would have been easier to just expunge these difficult passages, but they are left in. The Creator has the power over His created. So often when reading these passages one does not ask what happened to the soul. If these infants grew to adulthood in the immoral surroundings and propagated more evil, what then becomes of their soul? In God's wisdom He could have saved their souls by allowing their death.buffalo
December 1, 2013
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Our leaders are currently subject to the (secular) laws of the land. What you are talking about, with a straight face apparantly, is theocracy. No thanks. We have examples of both and I know which I prefer. Then I noticed this: persuading those of other religions to embrace our own belief system It just gets creepier. Do you ever read what you have written ?Graham2
December 1, 2013
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[We should hold our leaders accountable to the same moral law that we must obey} Graham2
That's exactly what many are afraid of
LOL. If you break the moral law and steal from someone, your leaders will put you in jail; but if your leaders want to break that same law and steal from you, you're OK with it.StephenB
December 1, 2013
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SB: Once we do establish our rational foundation however, ... holding our secular leaders accountable to the same moral principles that we must obey Thats exactly what many are afraid of. I just thank the lord my leaders are secular.Graham2
December 1, 2013
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There is only one spiritual and physical law in the universe: unity. The universe is ONE and any and all violations to this ONENESS will be corrected sooner or later. The concept of unity, which derives from yin and yang, is part of both Christianity and eastern religions. The master said, "Let them be ONE with us as we are ONE together." On a lighter note, what did the Zen master say to the hot dog vendor? Answer: "Make me ONE with everything."Mapou
December 1, 2013
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On the subject of the Old Testament, I will give Scordova and William J Murray the last word. I promise. In defense of the Natural Moral Law, I would simply point out that we have no other source with which we can arbitrate between secular and religious disagreements. In matters of politics and civil law, we will be ruled either by tyrannical men or by universally-binding principles. In religious matters, we will either fight each other to the death over theological issues, or we will rally around self-evident moral truths. Third options are not available. If we cannot agree on a basic and universal foundation for morality, then we are forever doomed to a war of all against all. Once we do establish our rational foundation however, we can exert our influence through the power of argument, persuading those of other religions to embrace our own belief system and holding our secular leaders accountable to the same moral principles that we must obey. If someone can come up with a better suggestion, please bring it forward.StephenB
December 1, 2013
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Nobody (yes, not even babies) deserves to live. This is why we all die eventually and turn into dust.
Yet William Munny's "Deserve's got nothing to do with it" aroused objections elsewhere on UD. Go figure.Reciprocating Bill
December 1, 2013
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StephenB @52:
If a human can morally take the life of one who no longer deserves to live,
Nobody (yes, not even babies) deserves to live. This is why we all die eventually and turn into dust.Mapou
December 1, 2013
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There are at least 3 (probably more) views in play: 1. materialism, morality is an evolved intuition, there is no right or wrong in the ultimate sense 2. what is right and wrong is self-evidently true, hence self-evident truths will give a complete guide to what is right and wrong -- appeals to law of non-contradiction, excluded middle, and "self-evident" truths determine what is right 3. intuition is an approximate guide to right and wrong, but what defines right and wrong is the Law Giver himself, how humans can have access to what the Law Giver says is right or wrong is the subject of debate and disagreement, and further the right thing to do is not always clear I subscribe to #3, and accept by faith that Jesus, being one with God, even the Old Testament God, is the one who tells us the law. In the case of the execution of infants in the Old Testament, it goes against human intuition of right and wrong. If I were living in Moses time, or Samuel's time, when I see a crying helpless baby who is missing its parents, rather than trying to comfort the infant, would I draw my sword cheerfully and kill it? I think not, I'd probably ask the Lord for mercy on the child because I could not bring myself to do the deed...Would it be moral for me to kill the baby or would it be moral for me to let it live. For those who don't believe the Bible, it's not a problem. They'll view as a fable, so it's no problem for them. But for those that do, examples like that conflict with the notion of "self-evidence" in morality, it shows intuitions, though usually right, are not always right. What is right and wrong is a bit more nuanced. How is this relevant to today? I gave two examples for starters: euthanasia and marital fidelity. There are even more subtle ones. In some anti-Christian countries, they'll torture the children of Christian parents in front of the Christian parents until the parents disavow Christ. What is the moral thing for the parents to do there? Where is the self-evident truth to guide the parents in the right thing to do? In the time of Nero, the Christian parents refused to disavow Christ even if meant their kids would be fed to the lions. What was moral wasn't so self-evident. Though I'm surely closer to view #2 (theism and self-evident morality) than to view #1 (materialism, and no ultimate morality), view #2 is not universally agreed on by those in ID's big tent. View #3 though sympathetic to view #2, has some disagreement with view #2, and I've tried to articulate some of those disagreements.scordova
December 1, 2013
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@48 "If we agree that X is self-evidently evil, and we agree that God is the embodiment of good, and a book you believe to be true says that god ordered someone to do X, it’s you that has to attempt to reconcile two apparently contradictory things, not me." Even in human terms, there are some circumstances under which is it just for one person to take the life of another, namely, when the victim no longer deserves to live. So natural morality takes reasons into account even though the act killing is repulsive, especially to the person who finds it necessary to carry it out. Morality isn't always pleasing and there are plenty of people who reject the natural moral law on the grounds that only pacifism is moral pleasing to them. Of course, the subject of genocide raises the bar, but even at that level, reasons matter. If a human can morally take the life of one who no longer deserves to live, affecting not only the person but also his family, then why cannot God also morally take the lives of tribe members who no longer deserve to live, especially when His plan of salvation is being thwarted through rebellion and especially when He possesses perfect knowledge of all the temporal and eternal consequences of his actions, a trait that humans engaged in the moral act self defense do not possess.StephenB
December 1, 2013
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Gentlemen: While theological-ethical debate-points may be engrossing, in this context they are distractive from what is primary. Now, I have already pointed here on, to some broadening perspectives on the usual hot-button points on such matters, which I suggest each of us take some time out to read and ponder in wider context. Note, in so doing that the texts in question form part of the Hebraic scriptures, and so kindly pause to reflect on the remarks by Rabbi Boteach in response to Christopher Hitchens' accusatory talking points against Jews, and the onward implication of what would happen were one to direct to Jews and Judaism the tone and talking points so often directed to Christians and the Christian Faith on this matter. In addition I draw attention to the broader civilisational-ethical issues through the remarks of the great Jewish scholar [that's relevant as backdrop for his words], Bernard Lewis, as well as ethical dilemmas faced by statesmen and generals alike. In so doing, also look carefully at the photograph of Gen Eisenhower and the men he spoke with moments before they boarded aircraft for D-Day, June 6th 1944 -- understanding that within a week, most of the paratroopers in the picture were dead or wounded; and, understand how his heart, as that of General Petain standing by The Sacred Way at Verdun in 1916, must have lurched . . . deeply wounded. Do not neglect the dilemma faced by the likes of Churchill and Roosevelt -- knowing but unable to say that they were fighting a nuke threshold war with time running out, as they had to make decisions on the use of heavy bombers, knowing what would happen when the bombs fell on cities. (Note, Churchill's agonised words in the aftermath, here.) Then -- as your heart lurches sickeningly as (like Joseph) you begin to feel a taste of the clamping, chaining bite of irons of affliction that are there to put necessary iron in your soul to responsibly and adequately handle such issues (cf. here) -- understand the sobering, heart-rending cost of dealing with entrenched, aggressively spreading evil that becomes a plague upon the earth. Then, finally, before drawing conclusions, understand that even as we speak, global leaders [as in 1938] are yet again flinching in the face of just such a dilemma; with millions of deaths -- explicitly including likely attempted genocide of the Jewish race . . . -- and massive global chaos in the stakes. I hope that, after a glance at such, we will appreciate why I think that we need to learn to crawl aright before we try to run with the horsemen. Let us not forget, what is at stake in this thread is first, that many in our civilisation have been led to reject or misunderstand the point that there are key self-evident plumbline principles and cases of truth that we can use to make sure our thinking in general and in particular on core morality is well founded, true, square and plumb. Gentlemen, I must therefore call our attention to making sure that first, foundational and framework-setting things are first. For if they are not, nothing thereafter will be in sound order. If one has not learned to crawl aright one has no hope of making a success of running with the horsemen. And, it seems, four of them are a coming, hoof-beats pounding over the horizon even as dark dust-clouds loom. KFkairosfocus
December 1, 2013
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Oops ...others who disagree.Alan Fox
December 1, 2013
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StephenB
It’s all about choice, never about inconvenient truths.
How do decide what's true, without the tablets? You don't have any evidence for divine truths. It's just what you've made up. I don't have a problem with that as long as you don't use your made up opinions to impinge on the rights of others to disagree.Alan Fox
December 1, 2013
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If we agree that X is self-evidently evil, and we agree that God is the embodiment of good, and a book you believe to be true says that god ordered someone to do X, it's you that has to attempt to reconcile two apparently contradictory things, not me. What is interesting about this is that even atheists that hold that morality is subjective reveal their hand when they point at these things in the bible as examples of things that are so obviously, objectively immoral that it casts the Christian position into ridicule. They are unknowingly falsifying their own "subjectivist" position by pointing it out, but the point they make is sound IMO. You can't point out the error of moral subjectivists who want to have it both ways while wanting to have it both ways yourself. It's not me that is holding an apparently conflicted position that requires a rube goldberg explanation to justify.William J Murray
December 1, 2013
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William J. Murray
Whether true or not, statements like that, and the attempt to justify what occurs in the Old Testament, are a big part of what drives people from Christianity and towards their mocking, ridiculing attitude towards it.
That's just the beginning. People also run from Christianity because it teaches the existence of hell, forbids sexual license, and bids us to forgive our enemies. Indeed, Jesus Christ drove a majority of his listeners away by telling them that they must eat his flesh and drink his blood. Hard sayings always drive people away. Everyone wants a religion that doesn't make demands and allows them to define truth in terms that are congenial with their inclinations. It's human nature.
If I had to pick between this kind of Christianity and atheism, I’d pick atheism as well. Fortunately, my choices are not limited to the two.
Yes, that is the modern temper. It's all about choice, never about inconvenient truths.StephenB
December 1, 2013
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Sal
No I didn’t. I believe God is always just. You’re welcome to point to the readers where I explicitly made that accusation here or anywhere else. You won’t find it because I never made it. You’re just making stuff up.
I am not making things up, and it seems that I am not the only one who reads what you say in that fashion (note buffalo @15). But if I misinterpreted your negative comments about God supervising Genocide as an act of injustice, then I happily apologize. I have no intention of misrepresenting anyone. Perhaps you are simply saying that God's actions were just because of the circumstances, in which case, we are on the same page in that sense. If so, however, it seems that you are trying to have it both ways: On the one hand, you blast the Old Testament and say, "Isn't that awful," On the other hand, you also say, "never mind, God had his reasons after all." I really do think you need to make up your mind. If you are saying that those who were under God's supervision were forced, in some cases, to violate the natural moral law as we are discussing it, then I would be inclined to agree. However, that is no argument against the existence of that law in antiquity. It would simply mean that God temporarily overruled it for the sake of some emergency. Either way, I find no consistency in your arguments. There is also the problem that you ignore all my arguments---no small thing.StephenB
December 1, 2013
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