Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Understanding self-evidence (with a bit of help from Aquinas . . . )

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A plumbline
A plumbline tells whether a wall is true (straight) and plumb (accurately vertical)

It seems that one of the pivotal issues in reasoned thinking about design-related questions — and in general —  is the question of self-evident first, certain truths that can serve as a plumb-line for testing other truth claims, and indeed for rationality.

(Where, the laws of identity, non-contradiction and excluded middle are foremost among such first principles. And where also, some ID objectors profess to be “frightened” that some of us dare to hold that there are moral truths that are self evident.)

Where also of course, self-evident does not merely mean perceived as obvious to oneself, which could indeed be a manifestation of a delusion. Nay, a self evident truth [SET] is best summarised as one known to be so and to be necessarily so without further proof from other things.

That is, a SET is:

a: actually true — it accurately reports some relevant feature of reality (e.g.: error exists)

b: immediately recognised as true once one actually understands what is being asserted, in light of our conscious experience of the world (as in, no reasonable person would but recognise the reality that error exists)

c: further seen as something that must be true, on pain of patent absurdity on attempted denial. (E.g. try denying “error exists” . . . the absurdity is rapidly, forcefully manifest)

I think Aquinas has a few helpful words for us:

Now a thing is said to be self-evident in two ways: first, in itself; secondly, in relation to us. Any proposition is said to be self-evident in itself, if its predicate is contained in the notion of the subject: although, to one who knows not the definition of the subject, it happens that such a proposition is not self-evident. For instance, this proposition, “Man is a rational being,” is, in its very nature, self-evident, since who says “man,” says “a rational being”: and yet to one who knows not what a man is, this proposition is not self-evident. Hence it is that, as Boethius says (De Hebdom.), certain axioms or propositions are universally self-evident to all; and such are those propositions whose terms are known to all, as, “Every whole is greater than its part,” and, “Things equal to one and the same are equal to one another.” But some propositions are self-evident only to the wise, who understand the meaning of the terms of such propositions . . . .

Now a certain order is to be found in those things that are apprehended universally. For that which, before aught else, falls under apprehension, is “being,” the notion of which is included in all things whatsoever a man apprehends. Wherefore the first indemonstrable principle is that “the same thing cannot be affirmed and denied at the same time,” which is based on the notion of “being” and “not-being”: and on this principle all others are based, as is stated in Metaph. iv, text. 9.

In short, we have two facets here, First, standing by itself a SET has an objective character and is a first principle, a point of certain knowledge. But, that brings up the second aspect: we need to understand it, that we may grasp it. And, that may well fail, primarily by way of ignorance, secondarily by way of commitment to a contrary ideology that makes it difficult or even nearly impossible to acknowledge that which on the actual merits is self-evident.

How can we address the problem?

By understanding the significance of how rejecting a SET ends in absurdity. Which may be by outright obvious logical contradiction, or by undermining rationality or by being chaotically destructive and/or senseless. Moral SETs are usually seen as self evident in this latter sense.

For instance, by way of laying down a benchmark, let us take the SET that has been so often put here at UD, by way of underscoring vital moral hazards connected to evolutionary materialism (which entails that there are no objective foundations for morality, as many leading Darwinists have acknowledged on the record), to wit:

MORAL YARDSTICK 1: it is Self-Evidently True that it would be wrong to kidnap, torture, rape and murder a child. With corollary, that if such is in progress we are duty-bound to intervene to save the child from the monster.

It will be observed that essentially no-one dares to explicitly deny this, or its direct corollary. That is because such denial would put one in the category of supporting a blatant monster like Nero. Instead, the tendency is to try to push this into the world of tastes, preferences, feelings and community views. Such a view may indeed reflect such, but it is more, it asserts boldly that here is an OUGHT that one denies being bound by, on pain of absurdity. Which of course, further points to our world being a reality grounded in an IS adequate to sustain OUGHT, i.e. we are under moral government.

But, that is not all.

Let us again note Dr Richard Dawkins on the record, in Scientific American, August 1995:

Nature is not cruel, only pitilessly indifferent. This lesson is one of the hardest for humans to learn. We cannot accept that things might be neither good nor evil, neither cruel nor kind, but simply callous: indifferent to all suffering, lacking all purpose [–> It escapes Dr Dawkins that we may have good reason for refusing this implication of his favoured ideological evolutionary materialism] . . . .

In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won’t find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but pitiless indifference [–> As in open admission of utter amorality that opens the door to nihilism] . . . . DNA neither cares nor knows. DNA just is. And we dance to its music. [“God’s Utility Function,” Sci. Am. Aug 1995, pp. 80 – 85.]

This is right in the heart of the science and society issues that rage over Darwinism and wider evolutionary materialist origins thought. Where, let us again remind ourselves, we must frankly and squarely face how Dr Richard Lewontin went on record also:

. . . the problem is to get [people] to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world, the demons that exist only in their imaginations, and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth [[–> NB: this is a knowledge claim about knowledge and its possible sources, i.e. it is a claim in philosophy not science; it is thus self-refuting]. . . . To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists, it is self-evident [[–> actually, science and its knowledge claims are plainly not immediately and necessarily true on pain of absurdity, to one who understands them; this is another logical error, begging the question , confused for real self-evidence; whereby a claim shows itself not just true but true on pain of patent absurdity if one tries to deny it . . ] that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality, and that, in contrast, the demon-haunted world rests on a set of beliefs and behaviors that fail every reasonable test  [[–> i.e. an assertion that tellingly reveals a hostile mindset, not a warranted claim] . . . .

It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [[–> another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [[–> i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. [From: “Billions and Billions of Demons,” NYRB, January 9, 1997. Bold emphasis and notes added. ]

These are smoking gun admissions as to the nature, prior commitments [viewed as self evident! . . . but actually only question-begging . . . ] and consequences of evolutionary materialist ideology, regardless of whether or not it is dressed up in the proverbial lab coat.

And, just as it is legitimate to confront a priori materialist impositions on the methods and conclusions of origins science  it is equally in order to raise serious questions on the moral implications of such ideologies and the way they irreconcilably conflict with yardstick cases of self evident moral truth.

Let us look back at that child.

S/he has no physical prowess to impose his or her will. S/he has no eloquence to persuade a demonic Nero-like monster to stop from brutally despoiling and destructive sick pleasures. S/he is essentially helpless. And yet, our consciences speak loud and clear, giving an insight that this ought not to be done, yea even, if we see such in progress we ought to intervene to rescue if we can, how we can.

Is that voice of conscience delusional, a mere survival trait that leads us to perceive an ought as a binding obligation where there is no such, or it is merely the perceived threat of being caught by superior state power or the like?

We already know from great reformers that the state can be in the wrong, though often that was taught at fearsome cost. (Nero’s vicious persecutions being themselves evidence in point.)

And, if one is imagining that a major aspect of mindedness is delusional, where does that stop?

In short, once the premise of general delusion of our key mental faculties is introduced we are in an infinite regress of Plato’s cave worlds. If we say we identify delusion A, who is to say but this is delusion B, thence C, D, E and so forth?

Plato's Cave of shadow shows projected before life-long prisoners and confused for reality. Once the concept of general delusion is introduced, it raises the question of an infinite regress of delusions. The sensible response is to see that this should lead us to doubt the doubter and insist that our senses be viewed as generally reliable unless they are specifically shown defective. (Source: University of Fort Hare, SA, Phil. Dept.)
Plato’s Cave of shadow shows projected before life-long prisoners and confused for reality. Once the concept of general delusion is introduced, it raises the question of an infinite regress of delusions. The sensible response is to see that this should lead us to doubt the doubter and insist that our senses be viewed as generally reliable unless they are specifically shown defective. (Source: University of Fort Hare, SA, Phil. Dept.)

{U/D Dec 4:}  A video adaptation (one that is closely accurate to the text of The Republic):

[youtube UQfRdl3GTw4]

So, we see the cogency of UD’s own WJM as he has argued:

If you do not [acknowledge] the law of non-contradiction, you have nothing to argue about. If you do not [admit] the principles of sound reason, you have nothing to argue with. If you do not [recognise] libertarian free will, you have no one to argue against. If you do not [accept] morality to be an objective commodity, you have no reason to argue in the first place.

In short, resort to dismissing key mental capacities as general delusion is a morass, a self-refuting fallacy.  (Which is different from, whether one may be in specific error and even a great many may be in specific error. Indeed, if we look at the original Plato’s Cave parable, it side-steps that by pointing to the one man who is set free and recognises the apparatus of manipulation for what it is, then, having been led to see more widely, returns to try to help; only to face the power of a mass delusion rooted in an evident error that is clung to.)

Instead, we should respect the general capacity of our mental faculties, recognising their strengths as well as limitations, and how playing the general delusion card is self referentially incoherent and absurd.

There is absolutely no good reason to assume or brazenly assert or insinuate that our insight on moral yardstick 1, is delusional. We have instead every good reason to hold that we are morally governed, with conscience as a faculty of mind that serves that government, though it may be dulled or become defective or may be in error on specific points. (Much as is so for vision and hearing, etc.)

So, let us follow up:

1 –> Per MY # 1 etc., we see — on pain of absurdity if we try to deny — that there are self-evident moral truths, entailing that we are under the moral government of OUGHT.

2 –> Where by MY # 1, the little child has moral equality, quasi-infinite worth and equal dignity with us as fellow human beings, a status that immediately is inextricably entangled with that s/he has core rights that we OUGHT to respect: her or his life, liberty, personhood, etc.

3 –> So, we are under moral government, which requires a world in which OUGHT rests on a foundational IS that can bear its weight.

4 –> And, I am very aware of the dismissals of and debates regarding “foundationalism” out there {U/D Dec 02: link added with adjustments, “foundationalism” was there all along . . . }, on closer inspection we can readily see that our worldviews and arguments are invariably dependent on finitely distant start points on which the systems of thought or reasoning must stand:

A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way}
A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way

5 –> So, also, we confront the challenge that –  there is just one serious candidate for such a  reality-foundational IS that can bear the weight of OUGHT: the inherently good eternal Creator God, whose precepts and principles will be evidently sound from . . . moral yardstick self evident truths.

6 –> Where also we can highlight the framework of such truths in the context of civil society and government, by citing a pivotal historical case or two.  First, that when he set out to ground the principles of what would become modern liberty and democracy, John Locke cited “the judicious [anglican canon Richard] Hooker” in Ch 2 Sect 5 of his second essay on civil government, thusly:

. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man’s hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [[Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [[Eccl. Polity,preface, Bk I, “ch.” 8, p.80, cf. here. Emphasis added.]

7 –> Less than a hundred years later, this was powerfully echoed in the appeal to self evident moral truths in the US Declaration of Independence of 1776:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, [cf Rom 1:18 – 21, 2:14 – 15], that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. –That [–> still, held self-evident!] to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government [–> right of judicious reformation and innovation, if necessary backed by the right of just revolution in the face of unyielding tyranny when remonstrance fails and threats or actual violence manifest in “a long train of abuses and usurpations” indicates an intent of unlimited despotism . . . ], laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security . . .

8 –> Those who would therefore seek to poison the well and the atmosphere for discussion on such matters, need to first pause and soberly address these historically decisive cases.

_______________

Therefore, the amorality of evolutionary materialist ideology stands exposed as absurd in the face of self-evident moral truths. Where, such moral yardsticks imply that we are under government of OUGHT, leading onward to the issue that there is only one serious explanation for our finding ourselves living in such a world — a theistic one. END

Comments
@sR
IMHO 9/11 was pain and tragedy for many, joy for some. It was what God requested of some, it was a Satanic act for many. The perpetrators were shaheed for some, terrorist for many. Absolute truth cannot exist in thought, acts and religion of everyone. So philosophically, there can be no absolute error since error is nothing but deviation from truth.
This only proves that subjective justifications exist in order to understand and resolve the absolute truth. It is often conflated, the distinction between the two. If a crowd sees a red light, debates can wage about the hue of the light, the duration, the brightness, and what the light means. However, these subjective thoughts are reactions to the observed red light. The light exists independent of the subjective interpretations.TSErik
December 5, 2013
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Mark Frank
I am running out of enthusiasm to pursue this as I agree with the conclusion – there are objective facts – I just want to establish that all you mean by “error exists” is that people make errors.
By "errors exist," I simply mean that false ideas, concepts, propositions, and philosophies exist in the realm of abstract realities. Concepts can be analyzed without reference to processes or people.
I don’t think you like this definition and struggle for some mysterious extra because while it is obviously true that people make errors it is not self-evidently true in the sense of leading to logical absurdity.
I don't like your definition because it isn't my definition and because it emphasizes an activity and a process as opposed to an idea. I argue from my definition, not from your definitions, which, for me, would involve a useless distraction and a misleading emphasis. Let me try to express the point using your tactics: Mark, I don't understand what you mean when you say "people commit errors." Earlier, you simply said that they "make" errors. The first one sound less like a mistake and more like reckless activity. The second formulation sounds more like an accident. Seriously, Mark, I don't understand what you are saying. Are these errors the result of bad timing, bad luck, or flat-out carelessness? Do they stem from wrong thinking, a misapplication of right thinking, or a combination of both? I am really trying hard to understand you, but so far I am just not grasping your meaning. Do you mean that people have accidents? Or do you mean that accidents happen to people? Are they avoidable or are they inevitable? Would you call them mistakes or errors. Seriously, I am trying to understand. Maybe you just mean to say that accidents and people come together in a random fashion. If so, I might be able to accept that. Or, maybe you mean to say that some accidents are actual and others are potential. That is also a statement I could live with. I am a very flexible and open-minded person and I will accept any definition that I get to choose, even if it has nothing to do with the argument you are making.StephenB
December 5, 2013
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RB: At first level, E = "error exists" is known to be factually true. It is not self referential and incoherent. The denial, ~ E = "it is an error to assert E," as it turns out IS self referential and thus incoherent; as it is an error as already shown. SR: The 9/11 events were objectively an instance of mass murder, rooted in hostage taking. It is possible for people to believe that such was justified -- people felt justified in throwing Christians to lions as perceived traitors to Rome unwilling to take a loyalty oath and as perceived enemies of humanity blameworthy for the fire in Rome of 64 too, but that mere matter of opinions one way or another does not affect its actual status as a patent violation of right to life. That IslamIST extremism promotes that sort of disregard for life is a sobering sign about that movement, not a good one. Let me again remind of canon Hooker's summary cited by Locke in founding what would become modern liberty and democracy:
. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man’s hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [[Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [[Eccl. Polity,preface, Bk I, "ch." 8, p.80]
I suggest, further, that you examine the above video on the parable of Plato's cave. Mass delusion and behaviour rooted in such are possible. That has nothing to do with whether self evident truth exists as was also discussed, or whether we can objectively know things to be wrong beyond reasonable doubt in many cases and even absolutely in others. Save, that one way to see the irrationality of trying to write off a major function of mind as delusional -- conscience -- is to realise that it opens the door wide to self-referential incoherence on the general credibility of the mind. As was also discussed. Finally, kindly examine:
MORAL YARDSTICK 1: it is Self-Evidently True that it would be wrong to kidnap, torture, rape and murder a child. With corollary, that if such is in progress we are duty-bound to intervene to save the child from the monster.
Would you be willing to write and publish a column in your local newspaper over your name and photo, defending the contrary:
(a)it is NEITHER Self-Evident NOR True that it would be wrong to kidnap, torture, rape and murder a child. (b) if such is in progress we are NOT duty-bound to intervene to save the child
Why or why not? That is, in just what ways can you escape the conclusion that denials (a) and (b) just now are patently absurd? Then, kindly explain your view of this from Dawkins [and which is cited in the OP], which DIRECTLY implies just these denials (a) and (b):
Nature is not cruel, only pitilessly indifferent. This lesson is one of the hardest for humans to learn. We cannot accept that things might be neither good nor evil, neither cruel nor kind, but simply callous: indifferent to all suffering, lacking all purpose [--> It escapes Dr Dawkins that we may have good reason for refusing this implication of his favoured ideological evolutionary materialism] . . . . In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won’t find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but pitiless indifference [--> As in open admission of utter amorality that opens the door to nihilism] . . . . DNA neither cares nor knows. DNA just is. And we dance to its music. [“God’s Utility Function,” Sci. Am. Aug 1995, pp. 80 - 85.]
KFkairosfocus
December 5, 2013
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Reciprocating Bill
If “error exists” is a proposition about other propositions, only, not about itself, then the truth value of the proposition “errors exist” is excluded from the evaluation of whether the proposition “errors exist” is true or false, and fails to compel the conclusion that it is true.
Learn to differentiate between a descriptive, short-cut expression that emphasizes one particular aspect of a general argument in order to address an objection that raises that aspect, and the argument itself. "Error exists" is a statement about the real world of abstract ideas. Not all abstract ideas, however, are propositions. Some are simple concepts; others are complex philosophies. In fact, the statement "error exists" is more than a mere proposition or statement of opinion; it is a self-evident truth. In any case, the one thing the statement does not do is refer to itself. It does not say, "this statement is an error." In case you have forgotten, or in case you didn't know, there is an argument on the table. Here it is: Errors, exist, therefore objective truth exists. Other than searching for linguistic tangles that do not exist, do you have anything to say about the subject matter being discussed?StephenB
December 5, 2013
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Hi KF,
truth exists as what accurately describes reality, that in cases it is knowable even to absolute certainty, indeed self evident knowable truth exists
IMHO 9/11 was pain and tragedy for many, joy for some. It was what God requested of some, it was a Satanic act for many. The perpetrators were shaheed for some, terrorist for many. Absolute truth cannot exist in thought, acts and religion of everyone. So philosophically, there can be no absolute error since error is nothing but deviation from truth.selvaRajan
December 5, 2013
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SB:
Error exists is a proposition about propositions. It doesn’t refer to itself. It refers to other propositions.
Now you’ve shot yourself in the foot. If “error exists” is a proposition about other propositions, only, not about itself, then the truth value of the proposition “errors exist” is excluded from the evaluation of whether the proposition “errors exist” is true or false, and fails to compel the conclusion that it is true. That only occurs when the propositions to which "errors exist" refers includes itself. In which case the proposition "errors exist" is self-referential.Reciprocating Bill
December 5, 2013
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O/T: A bit of explanation re spinal corrective surgery. KFkairosfocus
December 5, 2013
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MF: Pardon, but you have inadvertently underscored the point with your description of "error exists" as an enigma. It is anything but perplexing or a sphinx-like riddle. It is quite simple: the set that collects errors is non-empty -- which you can accept as the pivotal content of the proposition, there is at least one x such that x is an element of set E . . . that set which collects errors. The key onward point is that this factually well grounded and generally accepted observation is also UNDENIABLE, as the attempt to deny automatically generates one or more errors. Onward, this highlights that truth exists as what accurately describes reality, that in cases it is knowable even to absolute certainty, indeed self evident knowable truth exists and so also worldviews and ideologies that sit poorly with such a state of affairs are in trouble. KFkairosfocus
December 5, 2013
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#304 KF First - I am delighted to hear that your son's operation is proceeding well.
One thing that strikes me is how hard it has been for objectors to deal with a fairly simple and straightforward case of actual undeniable certainty.
I wonder which undeniable certainty you are referring to? I have no problem dealing with some things being objectively true. I do have a problem with: The enigmatic statement "error exists" which I think just means that "people make errors" (which is unexceptional) but you can't quite seem to bear to agree with that. The deduction that "error exists" is logically certain as opposed to just obviously true - which of course depends rather on what you mean by "error exists". The axiomatic role that you give to this statement in deducing that there are objective facts when it would follow equally from other unexceptional premises such as "people sometimes make correct statements about the world" and "the world would exist even if there were no being able to perceive it"Mark Frank
December 5, 2013
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Dr Selensky: It is always good to hear from you. All the best. KFkairosfocus
December 5, 2013
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UB:
Graham is convinced that error exist only in the minds of humans. One wonders why the cell was degrading mis-folded proteins long before man appeared on the scene.
Well said. KFkairosfocus
December 5, 2013
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F/N: One thing that strikes me is how hard it has been for objectors to deal with a fairly simple and straightforward case of actual undeniable certainty. As scientific claims inherently cannot come close to such a degree of warrant, that speaks volumes for the way we have so often seen deadlock on debates in the context of origins that are forever beyond our direct observation. That gives us context and perspective to help us evaluate. KFkairosfocus
December 5, 2013
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Q and others, thanks. Gkairosfocus
December 5, 2013
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CC: Today, the 24 hrs longest day continues so I am still a bit off stride. I think I can however give the best description of truth I have found, from Aristotle:
the truth says of what is, that it is; and of what is not, that it is not . . . [Metaphysics, 1011b, sl. adapted]
About as good a summary as one can get. And one that, where the standard is met, will hold for all who are but willing and able to see and accept. KFkairosfocus
December 5, 2013
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=>An error (as defined) would not exist in a given context if everyone understood and accepted the truth. Me=> How will you define 'truth'? Is truth same for everyone?coldcoffee
December 4, 2013
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SB I am running out of enthusiasm to pursue this as I agree with the conclusion – there are objective facts – I just want to establish that all you mean by “error exists” is that people make errors. I don’t think you like this definition and struggle for some mysterious extra because while it is obviously true that people make errors it is not self-evidently true in the sense of leading to logical absurdity. 
Perhaps it was once possible, but it now exists. If it didn’t exist, I couldn’t reproduce it and offer as an example of error leading to objective truth.
You didn’t reproduce the error. All you reproduced was the characters: 6293+4124=3829. Those characters describe a possible error someone might make. As far as I know no one has made that error. Using KF’s handy definition there has never been an act, assertion or belief that 6293+4124=3829.  Curiously in this sentence you are contrasting “possible” with “exists”. This implies not all possible errors exist. So when does a possible error start to exist? When someone writes it down? When they sincerely believe it?
However, this is neither here nor there. I also provided my own example of an existing error, geocentrism. I also showed that it can only be an error in the context of an objective truth (heliocentrism). Thus, objective truth defines and determines error, while error deviates from and confirms objective truth.
No problem with this.  If by “error exists” all you mean is “people have made errors” – geocentrism is an error people have made.
M: By “error exists” do you simply mean that there are possible errors which people may or may not commit? If so, I understand.
SB: You keep asking that question, I keep answering it, and you keep ignoring the answer: An error is a false belief, idea, concept, proposition, or philosophy. This is very easy and you are trying to make it hard.
But my question was not “what is an error” – but what do you mean by “error exists”. If you like we can broaden it to what do you mean by a belief, idea, concept, proposition, or philosophy exists? Do you mean people have held that belief, idea, concept, proposition, or philosophy – which would be fine – or do you mean they exist in some other sense which I do not understand?
MF: If not, I do not understand and need an explanation which goes beyond “there are such things as errors and they exist” SB: That is all anyone is saying. Everything else you added.
But that does not tell me what you mean by “error exists”. It just repeats the assertion. Suppose I was to assert that “undefined concepts exist”- you might reasonably ask what I meant by that. It would be an unsatisfactory response to say that “I mean there are such things as undefined concepts and they exist”.
Apparently, you are struggling with both the fact and the significance of that observation. If error exists, then objective truth exists. Many here do not agree because they have not thought the matter through. If you do agree, then I don’t understand what you are fussing about.
I accept that if people make factual errors then there must be objective truths they are wrong about. Equally I accept that if people make true factual statements there must be an objective truth they are right about.  This is not my concern. I simply want to understand what on earth you mean by error exists other than people make errors.
An error (as defined) would not exist in a given context if everyone understood and accepted the truth.
This implies an error only exists if people commit it. So 6293+4124=3829 does not exist because no one has ever committed that error. Right?
 
Mark Frank
December 4, 2013
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SB: Errors really exist. G2: It is a concept invented by humans and exists in the minds of humans. It doesnt ‘exist’ anywhere else.
If there were no discontinuities in the cosmos, if inexorable law determined everything, then error would not exist. But there are necessary discontinuities in every instance of translated information. It's a necessary part of the structure of reality if information is to function as a constraint on physical effects. Speaking on the subject of inexorable law, I think it was Plank (perhaps not) that said information gives us the sense that things "could be different". Graham is convinced that error exist only in the minds of humans. One wonders why the cell was degrading mis-folded proteins long before man appeared on the scene.Upright BiPed
December 4, 2013
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Its all a pea-and-thimble game on the different meanings of the word 'exist'. But then you believe we have a 'mind', like a grey cloud that follows us around. Fair enough.Graham2
December 4, 2013
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Graham2
Heres a hint: An ‘error’ is like a ‘circle’ or ‘happiness’, etc. It is a concept invented by humans and exists in the minds of humans. It doesnt ‘exist’ anywhere else.
Here is a hint: To exist in the mind of a human is to exist. Nothing has been said about where error does or does not exist. When all else fails, try to follow the argument.StephenB
December 4, 2013
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Heres a hint: An 'error' is like a 'circle' or 'happiness', etc. It is a concept invented by humans and exists in the minds of humans. It doesnt 'exist' anywhere else. Now proceed.Graham2
December 4, 2013
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Reciprocating Bill
In this context “errors exist” is shorthand for “propositions in error exist.”
That might be one way of putting it. Or, it could be short hand for saying "There are such things as errors." Or, it could be shorthand for saying, "Errors are real." However, I don't consider the economical formulation of a noun and a verb to be shorthand. It's a superior form of expression.
It is a statement characterizing some propositions.
Well, sort of. It is also a statement about ideas, philosophies, and concepts.
That statement [errors exist] is also itself a proposition, so it therefore potentially refers to itself.
Potentially refers to itself? You mean it doesn't refer to itself immediately, but it may well do so at any time? Why don't we call it a time-delayed predicate nominative? Let me make this easier for you. Error exists is a proposition about propositions. It doesn't refer to itself. It refers to other propositions. It isn't self-referential. It doesn't say, "this error exists." It couldn't say that because it isn't an error to say that errors exist, which is what is being said. It is the truth; it isn't an error. Errors really exist.StephenB
December 4, 2013
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Great news, kairosfocus! All the best to you and your family! -QQuerius
December 4, 2013
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RB: This is simply a case where denial of the original proposition instantiated a case of error. That is not viciously circular, it happens to guarantee that the set that collects errors is non-empty. And that is crucial. It leads to undeniable certainty of warrant and knowledge, manifesting self evident truth. The only real problem with it is that ever so much of current thought disparages objective truth much less truth knowable to certainty. It's not the point that's the problem, it is that it cuts a wide swath across popular relativist and subjectivist ideologies and worldview beliefs. All that means, is it does a good job; kudos to Josiah Royce who spotted the point and Elton Trueblood who emphasised it. KFkairosfocus
December 4, 2013
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RB: “As I observed on the previous thread, it is the ordinary “errors exist” that is undeniably true. Its status as “self-evidently true” results from a self-referential short circuit. SB: "What is being apprehended is a truth or error about the real world, not the self." "Self” in “self-referential” has nothing to do with “the self" versus "the world." In this context “errors exist” is shorthand for “propositions in error exist.” It is a statement characterizing some propositions. That statement is also itself a proposition, so it therefore potentially refers to itself. That self-reference accounts for the paradox that arises upon asserting that “errors exist” is in error, a paradox that tells us nothing about the world, nor about “self” for that matter. It does illustrate that ambiguities that can arise as a result of the referential flexibility of language (which permits self-reference) - not dissimilar to “This statement is false.”Reciprocating Bill
December 4, 2013
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Final note: post op, awake, alert, discomfort but no pain, no transfusion needed. KFkairosfocus
December 4, 2013
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Scordova
Can a proposition be true and false at the same time and in the same sense?
No.
Can Jupiter exist and not exist at the same time and in the same sense.
No." OK. No worries. The difficulty comes in when some want to say, "Yes, except that quantum mechanics has changed that reality with respect to the micro world." It is a common way to say, wrongly, that one can be selective in the application of LNC--as if "slit experiments" have proven that things can both exist and not exist at the same time in that one context. It's a way of saying, wrongly, that LNC applies most of the time and in most ways but not all of the time and in all ways. It is a way of saying, wrongly, that QM can inform LNC (as in Victor Stenger and many of his followers) rather than correctly saying that LNC informs quantum mechanics.
I don’t study philosophy, I don’t know what ontological or whatever else a philosopher means by it. In math, we only say exist, we don’t use ontological as qualifier, so I don’t know what StephenB was asking me.
OK. One of the reasons it becomes necessary to use the word "ontological" is to make the distinction between what is real and what is perceived to be real. Because philosophy has been so corrupted over the last 300 years, many have been led to believe that a thing can exist "for you" even though it may not exist "for me." Note that several on this thread have already indicated that Jupiter can exist and not exist at the same time "for them." This radical subjectivism is largely a fallout from the perverse Kantian philosophy of the eighteenth century, which often prompts observers to define reality and perception as one and the same thing. I hope, therefore, that readers will understand that I am not being petty when I press the point. Everything turns on recognizing the fact that self evident truths, such as the Law of Non-Contradiction, apply both to our mental framework (logical and psychological) and to the real world outside of our mental framework (ontological). Without self-evident truths, we are not capable of rational thought, much less can we enter into a rational discussion with another person.StephenB
December 4, 2013
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Thanks for interesting post, Kairos. Discussion that developed was interesting. All the best to your son.Eugen
December 4, 2013
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Reciprocating Bill
As I observed on the previous thread, it is the ordinary “errors exist” that is undeniably true.
The existence of error is undeniably true because it is self-evidently true. If it wasn't self evidently true, it could reasonably be denied.
Its status as “self-evidently true” results from a self-referential short circuit,
What is being apprehended is a truth or error about the real world, not the self.
and tells us nothing about the world
What is false about the real world confirms a truth about the real world, and what is true about the real world defines what is false about the real world.
Further: “Error exits” entails the unjustified reification of “errors” into “Error.”
To say that something exists is not reification if the thing really exists. Reification implies assigning real existence (or concrete existence) to something that isn't real or concrete. Thus, the word "reify" is being misused here.StephenB
December 4, 2013
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PS: Error denotes the set that collects errors. That's all that is needed.kairosfocus
December 4, 2013
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To set the record straight.
Sal, I have a question for you: Can a proposition be true and false at the same time and in the same sense?
No. Can Jupiter exist and not exist at the same time and in the same sense. No. I don't study philosophy, I don't know what ontological or whatever else a philosopher means by it. In math, we only say exist, we don't use ontological as qualifier, so I don't know what StephenB was asking me.scordova
December 4, 2013
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