Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Understanding self-evidence (with a bit of help from Aquinas . . . )

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A plumbline
A plumbline tells whether a wall is true (straight) and plumb (accurately vertical)

It seems that one of the pivotal issues in reasoned thinking about design-related questions — and in general —  is the question of self-evident first, certain truths that can serve as a plumb-line for testing other truth claims, and indeed for rationality.

(Where, the laws of identity, non-contradiction and excluded middle are foremost among such first principles. And where also, some ID objectors profess to be “frightened” that some of us dare to hold that there are moral truths that are self evident.)

Where also of course, self-evident does not merely mean perceived as obvious to oneself, which could indeed be a manifestation of a delusion. Nay, a self evident truth [SET] is best summarised as one known to be so and to be necessarily so without further proof from other things.

That is, a SET is:

a: actually true — it accurately reports some relevant feature of reality (e.g.: error exists)

b: immediately recognised as true once one actually understands what is being asserted, in light of our conscious experience of the world (as in, no reasonable person would but recognise the reality that error exists)

c: further seen as something that must be true, on pain of patent absurdity on attempted denial. (E.g. try denying “error exists” . . . the absurdity is rapidly, forcefully manifest)

I think Aquinas has a few helpful words for us:

Now a thing is said to be self-evident in two ways: first, in itself; secondly, in relation to us. Any proposition is said to be self-evident in itself, if its predicate is contained in the notion of the subject: although, to one who knows not the definition of the subject, it happens that such a proposition is not self-evident. For instance, this proposition, “Man is a rational being,” is, in its very nature, self-evident, since who says “man,” says “a rational being”: and yet to one who knows not what a man is, this proposition is not self-evident. Hence it is that, as Boethius says (De Hebdom.), certain axioms or propositions are universally self-evident to all; and such are those propositions whose terms are known to all, as, “Every whole is greater than its part,” and, “Things equal to one and the same are equal to one another.” But some propositions are self-evident only to the wise, who understand the meaning of the terms of such propositions . . . .

Now a certain order is to be found in those things that are apprehended universally. For that which, before aught else, falls under apprehension, is “being,” the notion of which is included in all things whatsoever a man apprehends. Wherefore the first indemonstrable principle is that “the same thing cannot be affirmed and denied at the same time,” which is based on the notion of “being” and “not-being”: and on this principle all others are based, as is stated in Metaph. iv, text. 9.

In short, we have two facets here, First, standing by itself a SET has an objective character and is a first principle, a point of certain knowledge. But, that brings up the second aspect: we need to understand it, that we may grasp it. And, that may well fail, primarily by way of ignorance, secondarily by way of commitment to a contrary ideology that makes it difficult or even nearly impossible to acknowledge that which on the actual merits is self-evident.

How can we address the problem?

By understanding the significance of how rejecting a SET ends in absurdity. Which may be by outright obvious logical contradiction, or by undermining rationality or by being chaotically destructive and/or senseless. Moral SETs are usually seen as self evident in this latter sense.

For instance, by way of laying down a benchmark, let us take the SET that has been so often put here at UD, by way of underscoring vital moral hazards connected to evolutionary materialism (which entails that there are no objective foundations for morality, as many leading Darwinists have acknowledged on the record), to wit:

MORAL YARDSTICK 1: it is Self-Evidently True that it would be wrong to kidnap, torture, rape and murder a child. With corollary, that if such is in progress we are duty-bound to intervene to save the child from the monster.

It will be observed that essentially no-one dares to explicitly deny this, or its direct corollary. That is because such denial would put one in the category of supporting a blatant monster like Nero. Instead, the tendency is to try to push this into the world of tastes, preferences, feelings and community views. Such a view may indeed reflect such, but it is more, it asserts boldly that here is an OUGHT that one denies being bound by, on pain of absurdity. Which of course, further points to our world being a reality grounded in an IS adequate to sustain OUGHT, i.e. we are under moral government.

But, that is not all.

Let us again note Dr Richard Dawkins on the record, in Scientific American, August 1995:

Nature is not cruel, only pitilessly indifferent. This lesson is one of the hardest for humans to learn. We cannot accept that things might be neither good nor evil, neither cruel nor kind, but simply callous: indifferent to all suffering, lacking all purpose [–> It escapes Dr Dawkins that we may have good reason for refusing this implication of his favoured ideological evolutionary materialism] . . . .

In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won’t find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but pitiless indifference [–> As in open admission of utter amorality that opens the door to nihilism] . . . . DNA neither cares nor knows. DNA just is. And we dance to its music. [“God’s Utility Function,” Sci. Am. Aug 1995, pp. 80 – 85.]

This is right in the heart of the science and society issues that rage over Darwinism and wider evolutionary materialist origins thought. Where, let us again remind ourselves, we must frankly and squarely face how Dr Richard Lewontin went on record also:

. . . the problem is to get [people] to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world, the demons that exist only in their imaginations, and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth [[–> NB: this is a knowledge claim about knowledge and its possible sources, i.e. it is a claim in philosophy not science; it is thus self-refuting]. . . . To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists, it is self-evident [[–> actually, science and its knowledge claims are plainly not immediately and necessarily true on pain of absurdity, to one who understands them; this is another logical error, begging the question , confused for real self-evidence; whereby a claim shows itself not just true but true on pain of patent absurdity if one tries to deny it . . ] that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality, and that, in contrast, the demon-haunted world rests on a set of beliefs and behaviors that fail every reasonable test  [[–> i.e. an assertion that tellingly reveals a hostile mindset, not a warranted claim] . . . .

It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [[–> another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [[–> i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. [From: “Billions and Billions of Demons,” NYRB, January 9, 1997. Bold emphasis and notes added. ]

These are smoking gun admissions as to the nature, prior commitments [viewed as self evident! . . . but actually only question-begging . . . ] and consequences of evolutionary materialist ideology, regardless of whether or not it is dressed up in the proverbial lab coat.

And, just as it is legitimate to confront a priori materialist impositions on the methods and conclusions of origins science  it is equally in order to raise serious questions on the moral implications of such ideologies and the way they irreconcilably conflict with yardstick cases of self evident moral truth.

Let us look back at that child.

S/he has no physical prowess to impose his or her will. S/he has no eloquence to persuade a demonic Nero-like monster to stop from brutally despoiling and destructive sick pleasures. S/he is essentially helpless. And yet, our consciences speak loud and clear, giving an insight that this ought not to be done, yea even, if we see such in progress we ought to intervene to rescue if we can, how we can.

Is that voice of conscience delusional, a mere survival trait that leads us to perceive an ought as a binding obligation where there is no such, or it is merely the perceived threat of being caught by superior state power or the like?

We already know from great reformers that the state can be in the wrong, though often that was taught at fearsome cost. (Nero’s vicious persecutions being themselves evidence in point.)

And, if one is imagining that a major aspect of mindedness is delusional, where does that stop?

In short, once the premise of general delusion of our key mental faculties is introduced we are in an infinite regress of Plato’s cave worlds. If we say we identify delusion A, who is to say but this is delusion B, thence C, D, E and so forth?

Plato's Cave of shadow shows projected before life-long prisoners and confused for reality. Once the concept of general delusion is introduced, it raises the question of an infinite regress of delusions. The sensible response is to see that this should lead us to doubt the doubter and insist that our senses be viewed as generally reliable unless they are specifically shown defective. (Source: University of Fort Hare, SA, Phil. Dept.)
Plato’s Cave of shadow shows projected before life-long prisoners and confused for reality. Once the concept of general delusion is introduced, it raises the question of an infinite regress of delusions. The sensible response is to see that this should lead us to doubt the doubter and insist that our senses be viewed as generally reliable unless they are specifically shown defective. (Source: University of Fort Hare, SA, Phil. Dept.)

{U/D Dec 4:}  A video adaptation (one that is closely accurate to the text of The Republic):

[youtube UQfRdl3GTw4]

So, we see the cogency of UD’s own WJM as he has argued:

If you do not [acknowledge] the law of non-contradiction, you have nothing to argue about. If you do not [admit] the principles of sound reason, you have nothing to argue with. If you do not [recognise] libertarian free will, you have no one to argue against. If you do not [accept] morality to be an objective commodity, you have no reason to argue in the first place.

In short, resort to dismissing key mental capacities as general delusion is a morass, a self-refuting fallacy.  (Which is different from, whether one may be in specific error and even a great many may be in specific error. Indeed, if we look at the original Plato’s Cave parable, it side-steps that by pointing to the one man who is set free and recognises the apparatus of manipulation for what it is, then, having been led to see more widely, returns to try to help; only to face the power of a mass delusion rooted in an evident error that is clung to.)

Instead, we should respect the general capacity of our mental faculties, recognising their strengths as well as limitations, and how playing the general delusion card is self referentially incoherent and absurd.

There is absolutely no good reason to assume or brazenly assert or insinuate that our insight on moral yardstick 1, is delusional. We have instead every good reason to hold that we are morally governed, with conscience as a faculty of mind that serves that government, though it may be dulled or become defective or may be in error on specific points. (Much as is so for vision and hearing, etc.)

So, let us follow up:

1 –> Per MY # 1 etc., we see — on pain of absurdity if we try to deny — that there are self-evident moral truths, entailing that we are under the moral government of OUGHT.

2 –> Where by MY # 1, the little child has moral equality, quasi-infinite worth and equal dignity with us as fellow human beings, a status that immediately is inextricably entangled with that s/he has core rights that we OUGHT to respect: her or his life, liberty, personhood, etc.

3 –> So, we are under moral government, which requires a world in which OUGHT rests on a foundational IS that can bear its weight.

4 –> And, I am very aware of the dismissals of and debates regarding “foundationalism” out there {U/D Dec 02: link added with adjustments, “foundationalism” was there all along . . . }, on closer inspection we can readily see that our worldviews and arguments are invariably dependent on finitely distant start points on which the systems of thought or reasoning must stand:

A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way}
A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way

5 –> So, also, we confront the challenge that –  there is just one serious candidate for such a  reality-foundational IS that can bear the weight of OUGHT: the inherently good eternal Creator God, whose precepts and principles will be evidently sound from . . . moral yardstick self evident truths.

6 –> Where also we can highlight the framework of such truths in the context of civil society and government, by citing a pivotal historical case or two.  First, that when he set out to ground the principles of what would become modern liberty and democracy, John Locke cited “the judicious [anglican canon Richard] Hooker” in Ch 2 Sect 5 of his second essay on civil government, thusly:

. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man’s hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [[Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [[Eccl. Polity,preface, Bk I, “ch.” 8, p.80, cf. here. Emphasis added.]

7 –> Less than a hundred years later, this was powerfully echoed in the appeal to self evident moral truths in the US Declaration of Independence of 1776:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, [cf Rom 1:18 – 21, 2:14 – 15], that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. –That [–> still, held self-evident!] to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government [–> right of judicious reformation and innovation, if necessary backed by the right of just revolution in the face of unyielding tyranny when remonstrance fails and threats or actual violence manifest in “a long train of abuses and usurpations” indicates an intent of unlimited despotism . . . ], laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security . . .

8 –> Those who would therefore seek to poison the well and the atmosphere for discussion on such matters, need to first pause and soberly address these historically decisive cases.

_______________

Therefore, the amorality of evolutionary materialist ideology stands exposed as absurd in the face of self-evident moral truths. Where, such moral yardsticks imply that we are under government of OUGHT, leading onward to the issue that there is only one serious explanation for our finding ourselves living in such a world — a theistic one. END

Comments
RB: I cannot get into much of a back-forth but noticed tag end of your comment on posting an update. It can be shown that your analysis is wrong. Where E = Error exists, ~E is antithesis. {E AND ~E} is conjunction and must be 0, i.e. one is false. But already, the conjunction is an error so instantiates E. ~E is false. This is not reification, as error is a real world -- and indeed common and factual -- phenomenon. The matter at stake is that it is at the next level: E is also UNDENIABLY true and self evident as a consequence. Back to more close to home matters. KFkairosfocus
December 4, 2013
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This just in: Theatre just called. All went well. Now closing wound. Should be brought to ICU in 45 - 60 minutes. Thanks for well-wishes and prayers. KFkairosfocus
December 4, 2013
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As I observed on the previous thread, it is the ordinary “errors exist” that is undeniably true. But so what? Its status as “self-evidently true” results from a self-referential short circuit, and tells us nothing about the world. It does open opportunities for wishful reasoning, made possible by the referential flexibility of language. Further: “Error exits” entails the unjustified reification of “errors” into “Error." Given that the mundane “errors exist” triggers the paradox of self-evidence without that reification, the self-referential “self-evidence” of “errors exist” does nothing to justify the promotion of “errors” into “Error” The self-evidence of “error exists” is parasitical upon that of “errors exist,” by means of an unjustified reification.Reciprocating Bill
December 4, 2013
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SB: The yardstick [for discerning the public good] is not different for those who know it
So who ‘knows it’ ?
There are many, including myself who know it. A good society is one in which it is easy to be good and hard to be bad; a bad society is one in which it is easy to be bad and hard to be good.StephenB
December 4, 2013
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If not, I do not understand and need an explanation which goes beyond “there are such things as errors and they exist”
That is all anyone is saying. Everything else you added. Apparently, you are struggling with both the fact and the significance of that observation. If error exists, then objective truth exists. Many here do not agree because they have not thought the matter through. If you do agree, then I don’t understand what you are fussing about.
For example, you might: * describe what it would be like for an error not to exist * give analogies e.g. do possible appointments, promises and animals exist in the same way, if not – what is the relevant difference
An error (as defined) would not exist in a given context if everyone understood and accepted the truth. Neither a missed appointment or a broken promise would constitute a false idea, proposition, or philosophy, though each could be prompted by one. It would be an error, for example, to believe that most people don’t value their time or appreciate those who keep their word. I suspect that there are people who hold false beliefs in that context, that is, they have cultivated the idea that only their time matters or that only others should keep their word. If that is true, then those errors exist; if it isn’t true, then they don’t.StephenB
December 4, 2013
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Mark Frank
My example is a possible error.
Perhaps it was once possible, but it now exists. If it didn't exist, I couldn't reproduce it and offer as an example of error leading to objective truth.
As far as I know it has never been committed by anyone.
I agree. Most likely, no one had ever made that error until you did (knowing, or course, that it was an error) Before that, we can say (someone loosely, not formally) that it was a potential error, one that could possibly be made, but had not yet been made. However, this is neither here nor there. I also provided my own example of an existing error, geocentrism. I also showed that it can only be an error in the context of an objective truth (heliocentrism). Thus, objective truth defines and determines error, while error deviates from and confirms objective truth.
By “error exists” do you simply mean that there are possible errors which people may or may not commit? If so, I understand.
You keep asking that question, I keep answering it, and you keep ignoring the answer: An error is a false belief, idea, concept, proposition, or philosophy. This is very easy and you are trying to make it hard.
If not, I do not understand and need an explanation which goes beyond “there are such things as errors and they exist” That is all anyone is saying. Everything else you added. Apparently, you are struggling with both the fact and the significance of that observation. If error exists, then objective truth exists. Many here do not agree because they have not thought the matter through. If you do agree, then I don't understand what you are fussing about.
For example, you might: * describe what it would be like for an error not to exist * give analogies e.g. do possible appointments, promises and animals exist in the same way, if not – what is the relevant difference
An error (as defined) would not exist in a given context if everyone understood and accepted the truth. Neither a missed appointment or a broken promise would constitute a false idea, though each could be prompted by a false belief. It would be an error, for example, to believe that most people don't value their time or appreciate those who keep their word. I suspect that there are people who hold false beliefs in that context, that is, they have cultivated the idea that only their time matters or that only others should keep their word. If that is true, then those errors exist; if it isn't true, then they don't.
StephenB
December 4, 2013
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Folks: Thanks for well wishes, prayers and contributions in thread -- though I don't have focus to read them just now. Son is in surgery as we speak, for a major operation. Is to complete at about EST 1330 hrs, then to ICU. I am offline for now. KFkairosfocus
December 4, 2013
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Hi kairosfocus, All the best for you and your son on this important day. My prayers are with you both.vjtorley
December 4, 2013
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Hi Mark Frank, Thank you for your recent posts, and for the article of yours that you provided a link to. When I say that true ethical statements are grounded in statements about what promotes our flourishing, I mean that they can be justified by those statements. More precisely, I mean that the various goods that promote our flourishing serve as truthmakers for ethical statements. I think this is the best place to begin our ethical reasoning: we should start with what is commonly acknowledged to be true about the flourishing of human beings in general.vjtorley
December 4, 2013
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Hi Graham2, Thank you for your post at #224 above. I think StephenB did an excellent job of replying to it. I'd just like say a little more about your comment:
1: What is ‘good’ ? Who decides ? Who is right ? Who is wrong ? The remaining points all suffer the same problem. They refer to ‘natural duties’, ‘public good’ etc, but according to whose judgement ?
My position is that ethical statements are grounded in publicly observable conditions of human flourishing. Some things are objectively good for us - food and water, exercise, education, creative activity, the company of others, being raised in a two-parent family, living in a society governed by the rule of law, the appreciation of beauty, and so on. Correlative with this fact, we can say that some things are objectively due (i.e. owed) to the individuals and institutions that promote human flourishing. Hence, "Honor thy father and mother" is a command that binds us. In my post, I included a link from The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy that described the basis of natural law thinking, as well as the areas of legitimate controversy among natural law thinkers. I suggest you familiarize yourself with the contents of that article. It's a good introduction to the subject. Cheers.vjtorley
December 4, 2013
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#273 VJ
Since I hold that true ethical statements are grounded in statements about what promotes our flourishing,
“Grounded in” can mean “caused by”, “justified by”, or just “means”. They are all different and get conveniently conflated in the term “grounded in”. I tried to explain my view on this here.Mark Frank
December 4, 2013
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#273 VJ Very reasonable. I am just curious to know if the line of reasoning I outlined in #271 is all KF and SB want to imply. I have repeatedly acknowledged that people make errors, and that there are objective truths, throughout this debate so I feel there must be more to it.Mark Frank
December 4, 2013
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Hi Mark Frank, May I make a suggestion? I think you would have no problem in accepting that the notion of theft presupposes the notion of property. Likewise, the notion of lying presupposes the notion of telling (what one believes to be) the truth. In a similar fashion, the notion of (factual) error presupposes the notion of factual accuracy, i.e. objective truth. Once you acknowledge that the term "factual error" applies to some of our beliefs and assertions, it follows that the notion of "factual accuracy" must apply to others. At least some of the things we say, then, are factually accurate, and hence are objectively true statements about reality. I think this is the point that kairosfocus was making. In your post at #271, you declare that you accept this line of reasoning, and acknowledge the existence of objective truth. I'm sure kairosfocus will be heartened to hear that. The next point at issue, then, is whether there are certain ethical statements which can be described as errors. Since I hold that true ethical statements are grounded in statements about what promotes our flourishing, and since I hold that flourishing - be it in plants, animals or people - is a state of affairs that can be readily observed (e.g. "That plant is thriving"), then I would say it follows automatically that some ethical statements are true. But I know that you will of course disagree with me on this one.vjtorley
December 4, 2013
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Hi kairosfocus @263, My best wishes for success of the spinal surgery
Proposition: the content of a sentence that affirms or denies something and is capable of being true or false
Let's take the sentence : 'The hatchback is red in color' 1. Those who don't known English wouldn't understand 'Red'. For them the proposition is neither true nor false 2. For a color blind person, the proposition is false. 3. For a blind person the proposition is false 4. For genetically peculiar person, non-visual stimulus (Chromaesthesia) may generate 'Red color'. For a person with Synesthesia, digits and letters will invoke colors, so for them the proposition may be true or false depending upon what stimulus they get by seeing the hatchback or seeing the numbers and letters written on the hatchback. So a proposition is not either true or false for everyone. We can only have a Venn diagram of proposition, where it's true for some, false for some and false sometimes and true sometimes for others.selvaRajan
December 4, 2013
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#268 SB continued I have said countless times above that I accept that objective truth exists. Why would I be concerned if there was an argument that went "error exists, therefore objective truth exists". Indeed I accept the argument: People make errors of fact There must be an objective fact to compare to their erroneous belief Therefore, there are objective facts It seems like a very clumsy way of establishing something everyone would accept without a moment's hesitation - but it is valid. But is that all you mean?Mark Frank
December 4, 2013
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It is obvious that this, is, indeed, an error–and that it exists.
No-one is arguing that errors happen. I don't think anyone apart from me suggests that "errors exist" is not really true as it smacks of "errors" lying in wait to happen and then remaining in a record somewhere. But , no big deal, in this sense, errors exist. What we want to know is how "error exists"; the (apparently) abstract reality of error, separate from an act that can be called an error, it's anticipation or memory.Alan Fox
December 4, 2013
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#268 SB My example is a possible error. As far as I know it has never been committed by anyone. By "error exists" do you simply mean that there are possible errors which people may or may not commit? If so, I understand. If not, I do not understand and need an explanation which goes beyond "there are such things as errors and they exist". For example, you might: * describe what it would be like for an error not to exist * give analogies e.g. do possible appointments, promises and animals exist in the same way, if not - what is the relevant differenceMark Frank
December 4, 2013
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Mark Frank
I don’t know what “error exists" means
This response is not credible. Using Mark's own example of an error,
6293+4124=3829.
[a] It is obvious that this, is, indeed, an error--and that it exists. [b] Clearly, this error deviates from and points to an objective truth that defines the error (both sides of an equation must be equal). Since Mark provided the error, it is not possible that he doesn't know what an error is. It is also not possible that he doesn't understand the argument being made: Error exists, therefore, objective truth exists. Still, he knows he cannot answer it, so he claims not to understand it. This is a pattern and cannot be a coincidence.StephenB
December 4, 2013
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Hi SB, Now I understand why you would consider me crazy(irrational is mild word!), but your question was specifically with reference to Ontology.
SB: Can Jupiter exist and not exist at the same time as an ontological reality?
I understand ontology from the following quote:
It is widely accepted that the first ontological argument was proposed by Anselm of Canterbury in 1078 in his Proslogion. He suggested that, if the greatest possible being exists in the mind, it must also exist in reality. First critic of the ontological argument was Anselm's contemporary, Gaunilo of Marmoutiers. He used the analogy of a perfect island, suggesting that the ontological could be used to prove the existence of anything
In the context of the above quote, If you see my examples, you will realize: 1. What exist in mind need not exist in reality -' Monster under bed ' example 2. What exist in reality can not be seen by all - 'Everyday Sun example' 3. What exist for all doesn't exist for some - 'Red color for Color blind'/Blind person's world example 4. What exist in reality might not be seen as reality - Compound eye of Fly example. so by corollary Jupiter can exist for some at the same time it may not exist for others. Hi CentralScrutinizer, Quantum mechanics is applicable to quantum particles(like Fermions, Gauge bosons, Higgs boson) only. Many people, right from Philosophers to doctors(like Dr.Chopra), companies like Quantumnman downloadable medicine are using the term to confuse innocent people.selvaRajan
December 4, 2013
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Yes, indeed, G, my hopes and best wishes for a successful outcome.Alan Fox
December 4, 2013
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KF - all the best for you and your son. MarkMark Frank
December 4, 2013
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G2: Kindly see just above on what assertions entails in this context, propositions; and yes proposition implies mind. KFkairosfocus
December 4, 2013
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MF (and others): It rather looks like today -- on 3rd attempt -- is spinal surgery day for my son. I think I will be offline for a while. I will note,on the way, the following on what a proposition is from Collins English Dictionary which renders the phil sense aptly:
proposition (?pr?p??z???n Pronunciation for proposition ) Definitions noun a proposal or topic presented for consideration (philosophy) the content of a sentence that affirms or denies something and is capable of being true or false the meaning of such a sentence: I am warm always expresses the same proposition whoever the speaker is Compare statement (sense 8) (mathematics) a statement or theorem, usually containing its proof (informal) a person or matter to be dealt with ? "he's a difficult proposition" an invitation to engage in sexual intercourse verb (transitive) to propose a plan, deal, etc, to, esp to engage in sexual intercourse . . .
I think the relevant sense of "assertion" in the definition of error should be clear: propositional. I think others can pick up from here on for now. And it is not wise to delimit the set of relevant minds to assert to human ones. (Yes, proposition entails mind in action, but to intend but fail to achieve truth or a correct result etc but fail entails the same. Cf the WJM aphorism in the OP.) Later, hopefully -- prayerfully -- with good news on progress for my son. G'day all KFkairosfocus
December 4, 2013
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G2 - you are right this is all utterly absurd in little more than a philosophical game - but quite fun. KF - by your own definition errors are not abstract entities they are "acts, assertions or beliefs" i.e. things people do or mental states. THis is nothing to do with abstractions.Mark Frank
December 4, 2013
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KF #256 I don't deny that there are statements which if denied lead to absurdity - I would go further and say that different types of statement leads to different kinds of absurdity. Some of these statements could reasonably be described as truths. #257
Further, I suggest that you have challenged the idea of error to the extent that you have challenged its status as a noun. One typically names that which exists, that we may discuss it. Are you denying that error exists in any meaningful sense?
Following the definition you supplied the noun “error” means: 1. An act, assertion, or belief that unintentionally deviates from what is correct, right, or true.2. The condition of having incorrect or false knowledge.3. The act or an instance of deviating from an accepted code of behavior.4. A mistake. I completely support these definitions which are all human actions or states of mind. You can say they exist if you like. I think it is more natural English to say they happen.  Your phrase is a bit like saying “anger exists”. It is clearer to say people get angry.  
If you mean that errors exist — as produced by the mistaken — but not a collective for them, error, I remind you of set theory, that it is reasonable to collect and name a collective that may be identified reasonably. If you doubt the case for error existing start with the empty set { }, assign it the concept 0, then go to the set that collects the set 0, {0}, then label this 1, and go on to {0, 1} –> 2, etc, so arriving at natural numbers. Are you prepared to deny the credible reality of these sets and their significance? I doubt it, given the province of learning called Mathematics. If you accept N, the natural numbers, then kindly allow us to discuss a set E, error on equally reasonable terms. So also, where entities are produced that manifest an intent to be accurate to reality but fail, errors exist and so also error [the collective set], exists.
I am not sure why you call the set of all errors – “error” – but I happily accept that there is a thing which is the set of all errors. To be precise there is the set of all errors that have been committed. You might also conceivably talk about the set of all possible errors. This a rather weird idea. You could equally talk about the  set of all possible almost anything - the set of all possible promises or a set of all possible appointments or all possible animals. In each case to assert that such a set exists is no more than asserting that it is comprehensible concept. What would it be like for such a set not to exist? Is this all you are trying to say – that error is comprehensible concept?
That set is inherently non-empty, as the propositional case of {E AND ~E} shows. Moreover, we can then go on to see that it is undeniable on pain of absurdity that E is so, i.e. error exists.
Which set – the set of all errors that have been committed or the set of all possible errors?Mark Frank
December 4, 2013
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PS: Necessary entities like the number 2 or the truth asserted in 2 + 3 = 5, have no beginning or end as they do not depend on external on/off enabling factors and are not impossible entities like square circles. And, given that we live in a cosmos that on overwhelming evidence is contingent, there is an underlying necessary being reality that accounts for such a cosmos. Cf. here on for a 101 level discussion that overlaps with this thread.kairosfocus
December 4, 2013
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G2: Your problem is not the reality of error, it is the reality of the abstract -- a typical problem of materialism and of those influenced thereby. Does 2 exist? (Consider the set based discussion just above.) Does information? (As in, what is it.) Time? The past? Thinking, understanding self-aware mind, beyond blind mechanical computation? Personhood as a stable, enduring identity not just a present state of a blind mechanical system? Oughtness, so that we actually exist as stable entities that can have rights and duties, and value that demands respect? Or is this the abyss of absurdities that you face, as described by Sir Francis Crick in his 1994, The Astonishing Hypothesis:
. . . that "You", your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. As Lewis Carroll's Alice might have phrased: "You're nothing but a pack of neurons." This hypothesis is so alien to the ideas of most people today that it can truly be called astonishing.
Philip Johnson's apt retort was that Sir Francis ought to have been willing to preface his books: "I, Francis Crick, my opinions and my science, and even the thoughts expressed in this book, consist of nothing more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules.” (In short, as Prof Johnson then went on to say: “[[t]he plausibility of materialistic determinism requires that an implicit exception be made for the theorist.” [In Reason in the Balance, 1995.]) At this stage, it should be evident that materialism faces big problems starting with common sense reality. Indeed, it is quite plainly utterly and irretrievably self-referentially incoherent. (Cf. here on in context.) I suggest you -- and for that matter, all of us -- scroll up to the OP where I have just added a video version of Plato's parable of the cave, and take a few moments to watch it. KFkairosfocus
December 4, 2013
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Since the discussion has descended into the absurd, can I join the fun ? If I forget an appointment, I have made a mistake ... an error has occured. Now does this error 'exist' ? In what universe can you possibly claim it exists ? How long does it exist ? Forever ? Can it ever die ? What if I suddenly realise I was right after all, does the original error cease to exist ? Intelligent Design is in safe hands(!).Graham2
December 4, 2013
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MF: Further, I suggest that you have challenged the idea of error to the extent that you have challenged its status as a noun. One typically names that which exists, that we may discuss it. Are you denying that error exists in any meaningful sense? if so, then, you need to confront again the memory of X-marked elementary school sums or visit such a class in progress. If you mean that errors exist -- as produced by the mistaken -- but not a collective for them, error, I remind you of set theory, that it is reasonable to collect and name a collective that may be identified reasonably. If you doubt the case for error existing start with the empty set { }, assign it the concept 0, then go to the set that collects the set 0, {0}, then label this 1, and go on to {0, 1} --> 2, etc, so arriving at natural numbers. Are you prepared to deny the credible reality of these sets and their significance? I doubt it, given the province of learning called Mathematics. If you accept N, the natural numbers, then kindly allow us to discuss a set E, error on equally reasonable terms. So also, where entities are produced that manifest an intent to be accurate to reality but fail, errors exist and so also error [the collective set], exists. That set is inherently non-empty, as the propositional case of {E AND ~E} shows. Moreover, we can then go on to see that it is undeniable on pain of absurdity that E is so, i.e. error exists. KFkairosfocus
December 3, 2013
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MF: Pardon, but the issue is not just that there are objective truths, but that there are self-evident truths, truths that are certain on pain of absurdity on attempted denial. Which has momentous consequences for worldviews. KFkairosfocus
December 3, 2013
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