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Understanding self-evidence (with a bit of help from Aquinas . . . )

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It seems that one of the pivotal issues in reasoned thinking about design-related questions — and in general —  is the question of self-evident first, certain truths that can serve as a plumb-line for testing other truth claims, and indeed for rationality.

(Where, the laws of identity, non-contradiction and excluded middle are foremost among such first principles. And where also, some ID objectors profess to be “frightened” that some of us dare to hold that there are moral truths that are self evident.)

Where also of course, self-evident does not merely mean perceived as obvious to oneself, which could indeed be a manifestation of a delusion. Nay, a self evident truth [SET] is best summarised as one known to be so and to be necessarily so without further proof from other things.

That is, a SET is:

a: actually true — it accurately reports some relevant feature of reality (e.g.: error exists)

b: immediately recognised as true once one actually understands what is being asserted, in light of our conscious experience of the world (as in, no reasonable person would but recognise the reality that error exists)

c: further seen as something that must be true, on pain of patent absurdity on attempted denial. (E.g. try denying “error exists” . . . the absurdity is rapidly, forcefully manifest)

I think Aquinas has a few helpful words for us:

Now a thing is said to be self-evident in two ways: first, in itself; secondly, in relation to us. Any proposition is said to be self-evident in itself, if its predicate is contained in the notion of the subject: although, to one who knows not the definition of the subject, it happens that such a proposition is not self-evident. For instance, this proposition, “Man is a rational being,” is, in its very nature, self-evident, since who says “man,” says “a rational being”: and yet to one who knows not what a man is, this proposition is not self-evident. Hence it is that, as Boethius says (De Hebdom.), certain axioms or propositions are universally self-evident to all; and such are those propositions whose terms are known to all, as, “Every whole is greater than its part,” and, “Things equal to one and the same are equal to one another.” But some propositions are self-evident only to the wise, who understand the meaning of the terms of such propositions . . . .

Now a certain order is to be found in those things that are apprehended universally. For that which, before aught else, falls under apprehension, is “being,” the notion of which is included in all things whatsoever a man apprehends. Wherefore the first indemonstrable principle is that “the same thing cannot be affirmed and denied at the same time,” which is based on the notion of “being” and “not-being”: and on this principle all others are based, as is stated in Metaph. iv, text. 9.

In short, we have two facets here, First, standing by itself a SET has an objective character and is a first principle, a point of certain knowledge. But, that brings up the second aspect: we need to understand it, that we may grasp it. And, that may well fail, primarily by way of ignorance, secondarily by way of commitment to a contrary ideology that makes it difficult or even nearly impossible to acknowledge that which on the actual merits is self-evident.

How can we address the problem?

By understanding the significance of how rejecting a SET ends in absurdity. Which may be by outright obvious logical contradiction, or by undermining rationality or by being chaotically destructive and/or senseless. Moral SETs are usually seen as self evident in this latter sense.

For instance, by way of laying down a benchmark, let us take the SET that has been so often put here at UD, by way of underscoring vital moral hazards connected to evolutionary materialism (which entails that there are no objective foundations for morality, as many leading Darwinists have acknowledged on the record), to wit:

MORAL YARDSTICK 1: it is Self-Evidently True that it would be wrong to kidnap, torture, rape and murder a child. With corollary, that if such is in progress we are duty-bound to intervene to save the child from the monster.

It will be observed that essentially no-one dares to explicitly deny this, or its direct corollary. That is because such denial would put one in the category of supporting a blatant monster like Nero. Instead, the tendency is to try to push this into the world of tastes, preferences, feelings and community views. Such a view may indeed reflect such, but it is more, it asserts boldly that here is an OUGHT that one denies being bound by, on pain of absurdity. Which of course, further points to our world being a reality grounded in an IS adequate to sustain OUGHT, i.e. we are under moral government.

But, that is not all.

Let us again note Dr Richard Dawkins on the record, in Scientific American, August 1995:

Nature is not cruel, only pitilessly indifferent. This lesson is one of the hardest for humans to learn. We cannot accept that things might be neither good nor evil, neither cruel nor kind, but simply callous: indifferent to all suffering, lacking all purpose [–> It escapes Dr Dawkins that we may have good reason for refusing this implication of his favoured ideological evolutionary materialism] . . . .

In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won’t find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but pitiless indifference [–> As in open admission of utter amorality that opens the door to nihilism] . . . . DNA neither cares nor knows. DNA just is. And we dance to its music. [“God’s Utility Function,” Sci. Am. Aug 1995, pp. 80 – 85.]

This is right in the heart of the science and society issues that rage over Darwinism and wider evolutionary materialist origins thought. Where, let us again remind ourselves, we must frankly and squarely face how Dr Richard Lewontin went on record also:

. . . the problem is to get [people] to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world, the demons that exist only in their imaginations, and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth [[–> NB: this is a knowledge claim about knowledge and its possible sources, i.e. it is a claim in philosophy not science; it is thus self-refuting]. . . . To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists, it is self-evident [[–> actually, science and its knowledge claims are plainly not immediately and necessarily true on pain of absurdity, to one who understands them; this is another logical error, begging the question , confused for real self-evidence; whereby a claim shows itself not just true but true on pain of patent absurdity if one tries to deny it . . ] that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality, and that, in contrast, the demon-haunted world rests on a set of beliefs and behaviors that fail every reasonable test  [[–> i.e. an assertion that tellingly reveals a hostile mindset, not a warranted claim] . . . .

It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [[–> another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [[–> i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. [From: “Billions and Billions of Demons,” NYRB, January 9, 1997. Bold emphasis and notes added. ]

These are smoking gun admissions as to the nature, prior commitments [viewed as self evident! . . . but actually only question-begging . . . ] and consequences of evolutionary materialist ideology, regardless of whether or not it is dressed up in the proverbial lab coat.

And, just as it is legitimate to confront a priori materialist impositions on the methods and conclusions of origins science  it is equally in order to raise serious questions on the moral implications of such ideologies and the way they irreconcilably conflict with yardstick cases of self evident moral truth.

Let us look back at that child.

S/he has no physical prowess to impose his or her will. S/he has no eloquence to persuade a demonic Nero-like monster to stop from brutally despoiling and destructive sick pleasures. S/he is essentially helpless. And yet, our consciences speak loud and clear, giving an insight that this ought not to be done, yea even, if we see such in progress we ought to intervene to rescue if we can, how we can.

Is that voice of conscience delusional, a mere survival trait that leads us to perceive an ought as a binding obligation where there is no such, or it is merely the perceived threat of being caught by superior state power or the like?

We already know from great reformers that the state can be in the wrong, though often that was taught at fearsome cost. (Nero’s vicious persecutions being themselves evidence in point.)

And, if one is imagining that a major aspect of mindedness is delusional, where does that stop?

In short, once the premise of general delusion of our key mental faculties is introduced we are in an infinite regress of Plato’s cave worlds. If we say we identify delusion A, who is to say but this is delusion B, thence C, D, E and so forth?

Plato's Cave of shadow shows projected before life-long prisoners and confused for reality. Once the concept of general delusion is introduced, it raises the question of an infinite regress of delusions. The sensible response is to see that this should lead us to doubt the doubter and insist that our senses be viewed as generally reliable unless they are specifically shown defective. (Source: University of Fort Hare, SA, Phil. Dept.)
Plato’s Cave of shadow shows projected before life-long prisoners and confused for reality. Once the concept of general delusion is introduced, it raises the question of an infinite regress of delusions. The sensible response is to see that this should lead us to doubt the doubter and insist that our senses be viewed as generally reliable unless they are specifically shown defective. (Source: University of Fort Hare, SA, Phil. Dept.)

{U/D Dec 4:}  A video adaptation (one that is closely accurate to the text of The Republic):

So, we see the cogency of UD’s own WJM as he has argued:

If you do not [acknowledge] the law of non-contradiction, you have nothing to argue about. If you do not [admit] the principles of sound reason, you have nothing to argue with. If you do not [recognise] libertarian free will, you have no one to argue against. If you do not [accept] morality to be an objective commodity, you have no reason to argue in the first place.

In short, resort to dismissing key mental capacities as general delusion is a morass, a self-refuting fallacy.  (Which is different from, whether one may be in specific error and even a great many may be in specific error. Indeed, if we look at the original Plato’s Cave parable, it side-steps that by pointing to the one man who is set free and recognises the apparatus of manipulation for what it is, then, having been led to see more widely, returns to try to help; only to face the power of a mass delusion rooted in an evident error that is clung to.)

Instead, we should respect the general capacity of our mental faculties, recognising their strengths as well as limitations, and how playing the general delusion card is self referentially incoherent and absurd.

There is absolutely no good reason to assume or brazenly assert or insinuate that our insight on moral yardstick 1, is delusional. We have instead every good reason to hold that we are morally governed, with conscience as a faculty of mind that serves that government, though it may be dulled or become defective or may be in error on specific points. (Much as is so for vision and hearing, etc.)

So, let us follow up:

1 –> Per MY # 1 etc., we see — on pain of absurdity if we try to deny — that there are self-evident moral truths, entailing that we are under the moral government of OUGHT.

2 –> Where by MY # 1, the little child has moral equality, quasi-infinite worth and equal dignity with us as fellow human beings, a status that immediately is inextricably entangled with that s/he has core rights that we OUGHT to respect: her or his life, liberty, personhood, etc.

3 –> So, we are under moral government, which requires a world in which OUGHT rests on a foundational IS that can bear its weight.

4 –> And, I am very aware of the dismissals of and debates regarding “foundationalism” out there {U/D Dec 02: link added with adjustments, “foundationalism” was there all along . . . }, on closer inspection we can readily see that our worldviews and arguments are invariably dependent on finitely distant start points on which the systems of thought or reasoning must stand:

A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way}
A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way

5 –> So, also, we confront the challenge that –  there is just one serious candidate for such a  reality-foundational IS that can bear the weight of OUGHT: the inherently good eternal Creator God, whose precepts and principles will be evidently sound from . . . moral yardstick self evident truths.

6 –> Where also we can highlight the framework of such truths in the context of civil society and government, by citing a pivotal historical case or two.  First, that when he set out to ground the principles of what would become modern liberty and democracy, John Locke cited “the judicious [anglican canon Richard] Hooker” in Ch 2 Sect 5 of his second essay on civil government, thusly:

. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man’s hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [[Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [[Eccl. Polity,preface, Bk I, “ch.” 8, p.80, cf. here. Emphasis added.]

7 –> Less than a hundred years later, this was powerfully echoed in the appeal to self evident moral truths in the US Declaration of Independence of 1776:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, [cf Rom 1:18 – 21, 2:14 – 15], that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. –That [–> still, held self-evident!] to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government [–> right of judicious reformation and innovation, if necessary backed by the right of just revolution in the face of unyielding tyranny when remonstrance fails and threats or actual violence manifest in “a long train of abuses and usurpations” indicates an intent of unlimited despotism . . . ], laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security . . .

8 –> Those who would therefore seek to poison the well and the atmosphere for discussion on such matters, need to first pause and soberly address these historically decisive cases.

_______________

Therefore, the amorality of evolutionary materialist ideology stands exposed as absurd in the face of self-evident moral truths. Where, such moral yardsticks imply that we are under government of OUGHT, leading onward to the issue that there is only one serious explanation for our finding ourselves living in such a world — a theistic one. END

Comments
I am not concerned with the rationale for your anti-iontellectualism but the fact of it.
Where did I claim to be an anti-intellectual? I did say I'm a bit of an anti-rationalist where rationalist is defined as:
the view that "regards reason as the chief source and test of knowledge"
That was anti-Rationalist in the usage of Whitehead, not some of the modern day usage of the term. In the battle between Rationalist vs. Empiricist schools, I'm closer to empiricism, since the mind when thinking is making empirical measurements and there is no guarantee that what the mind computes will be correct, so why should the mind be primary, facts adjudicate whether a mind's ideas are correct. Feed a mind bad data, it will make logical inferences using bad data just like a computer will, only worse.
"Beware of rational argument," he said; "you need only one false premise in order to prove anything you please by logic." Bertrand Russell
I'm an evidentialist, I distrust those who think their minds can assert sweeping truths about reality from such small distorted samples sizes of how reality actually works!
I am not concerned with the reasons that you deny the Law of Non-Contradiction but the fact of it.
I agree with the strong form of LNC where this statement is false
E = not-E
but in the weaker version of LNC, one can accept non-LNC as an axiom and find propositions that fit this axiom
(E and not-E) is true
LNC is very good for mathematics and formal logic and computation, because the assumption of a system obeying non-contradiction makes it easy to make inferences about the system, in fact many deep inferences. But LNC is an axiom presumed. Perhaps you only presume it is inviolable because you only consider propositions that obey strong LNC, but there are many propositions that don't because they are too ambiguous. Your insistence on its truth is rooted in confirmation bias and applying it only to propositions that weak and strong LNC applies while ignoring valid propositions where weak LNC does not apply.
Barack Obama is beloved and not beloved
or
Barack Obama is a great and not great president
If one is Stalinist I suppose Obama is a great president, if one is a free market loving American, Obama is not a great president.
classical music is beautiful and is not beautiful
Beethoven's Emperor Concerto is beautiful, but chamber music -- eh..... You'll complain that's LNC applies to the same thing at the same state at the same time and same sense. Fine! LNC applies to same thing in the same state and same time and same sense, and non-LNC can apply to systems outside those narrow parameters. It's just not useful for formal logicians to drop the LNC axiom, but it doesn't make non-LNC inherently false for non-LNC propositions, it is only assumed inherently false by logical convention since formal logic works well on system that are defined by LNC, and fails for non-LNC propositions, but it doesn't mean non-LNC propositions are inherently false. This statement as it stands is true and conveys true meaning:
(Barack Obama is beloved and not beloved) is a true statement
If follows exactly the non weak-LNC axiom:
(E and not-E) is true
It is true because it conveys the fact that he is perceived differently by different observers. Assuming the non-LNC axiom describes ambiguous situations where the observer of a property is not well-defined.
this food is bitter and not-bitter
If someone doesn't have the PROP-tasting gene it might not be bitter while some with the PROP-tasting gene will find it bitter. Who determines the self-evident property of the food being bitter, the guy with the PROP-tasting gene or the one without? One will say LNC applies to the essence of bitterness -- fine, then permit non-LNC to apply to non-essence propositions.
Martina is (a loser) and not-(a loser) at tennis games
That statement, as it stands is true. It is a proposition under a set of propositions that can satisfy non-LNC axioms. Such propositions are not mathematically interesting, but in human language they do convey meaning. That statement as it stands is true. I recall you didn't have much concern about Schrodinger's cat being both dead and alive or when quantum bits are both true and false at the same time. But we find if we assume the non-LNC axiom, many propositions fit because of the inherent ambiguity of the observer. I also pointed to the fact Trinitarians can have that Law thrown in their faces. i.e. "3 is not 1, therefore God cannot be 1 and 3 according to the Law of Non Contradiction". If you accept that the trinity can fall under non-LNC systems, then there is no problem. So I accept strong form of LNC always, and the weak form of where LNC applies. However it doesn't mean there aren't propositions that cannot fit under non-LNC axioms (where LNC is the weak form), namely those where different observers or kinds of observations will assert different properties.
red is beautiful and non-beautiful
Well, red is the color of warning light for your transmission, red isn't so beautiful, but if red is the color of a ruby, it is beautiful. The property is context dependent, and propositions such as this fit well under the systems that accept the non-LNC axiom -- dare I say where what is true is context dependent, subjective, or ambiguous.scordova
December 3, 2013
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The ability to assign the error in the AND to ~E is specifically dependent on the meaning of the two assertions.
Please can you explain. This really is an extremely hard sentence to understand. Perhaps someone else can help?Mark Frank
December 3, 2013
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MF: Again, the point is that it can be shown on pain of reduction to absurdity that error exists is undeniably true. The ability to assign the error in the AND to ~E is specifically dependent on the meaning of the two assertions. So, we always have a case of error and there is no possible society in which it does not hold that E. KFkairosfocus
December 3, 2013
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F/N: just to make a point clear from the OED concise, 1990, regarding a word MF has kept on using: "Coarse sl. Usually considered a taboo word." That is, the pretence of its being okay in normal conversation is an example of the disrespect and if I can get away with it it's okay nihilist attitude we are addressing. I think such need to be familiar with the broken window theory of policing. KFkairosfocus
December 3, 2013
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#189 KF -
[You full well know that language shifts and that terms once acceptable become vulgar]
I think you will find that language has shifted beyond what you are aware of and the words you find offensive are no longer considered offensive by most people - but I will refrain from offending you to the extent that I can anticipate correctly what will do so. I am glad to see that you are a relativist concerning this particular demeanour :-)
[it has been shown that denying error exists leads straight into multiple patent absurdities, and you previously agreed under pressure, try, E, ~E, [E AND ~E] = 0, so on inspection ~E = 0.]
I am sorry but I never agreed to this, maybe you were thinking of someone else? If E is the premise "error exists" please show me how this leads to logical absurdity. What you have shown is that if you assume E and ~E then you get a logical contradiction - but of course that is trivially true of any proposition.Mark Frank
December 3, 2013
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MF: why are you acting like the bad neighbour who refuses to restrain his dog after his neighbour has already pointed out what that dog is regularly depositing on his lawn? Are you trying to exasperate me into removing your posts or shut down this thread so you and/or associates/ enablers can go elsewhere and make false claims about "censorship for mere disagreement"? Come on, do better than that. KFkairosfocus
December 3, 2013
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KF 1) Please make allowances for other cultures. I had no idea what you referring to because in my culture (by which I mean large sections of English speaking Western society) to call [SNIP-there you go again . . . in the face of full well knowing what you are doing] "excrement" is a euphemism and considered pretentious. Are you against using the language of Chaucer and Shakespeare? [You full well know that language shifts and that terms once acceptable become vulgar] 2) I know full well that people make errors. These errors lead to results as varied as faulty machines, sums with wrong answers, poor judgements of character and missed penalties in soccer. It is reasonable to call these results errors as long we know that were created as the result of someone erring. [this was never at issue: error implies but is not equal to erring. noun is not verb . . . all of which was already pointed out] That much we rather painfully established. But I got the impression you meant more than that by the phrase "error exists". I would also point out that while it is obviously true that errors exist in this sense, denying it does not lead any kind of logical absurdity [it has been shown that denying error exists leads straight into multiple patent absurdities, and you previously agreed under pressure, try, E, ~E, [E AND ~E] = 0, so on inspection ~E = 0.] . Denying it would just mean a society where everyday got everything right all the time - not realistic but logically possible [rubbish].Mark Frank
December 3, 2013
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MF: You full well know you made vulgar references to canine excrement above, which I have had to clean up just like if it was left on my lawn. Next, you full well know just what it means that error undeniably exists, both because you also doubtless went to school, and because you have been carefully presented with point by point explanations. You were forced to acknowledge the point but a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. KFkairosfocus
December 3, 2013
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DiEb: >>1) You call a “survival trait” “delusional”. Why?>> Cf Plantinga on the difference between what may enhance survival and the accuracy of a concept, belief or perception to reality. Or, simply cf how models may be empirically reliable and useful without being accurate. It works and it is accurate or truthful or right are categorically, utterly distinct. In context, a mere survival trait sense that misleads us to see ourselves governed by OUGHT, would be delusional, and opens an infinite regress of Plato's cave worlds. >>2) “if we see such in progress we ought to intervene to rescue if we can, how we can.” I assume that God is exempt from this obligation to intervene – why?>> God is in a very different position from us, as would be patent. I suggest you examine here on, where there is a skeletal outline of the Plantinga Free will defense that successfully overturned the deductive problem of evil. as you know or should know. It also puts the inductive form in due proportion. Also, cf, Boethius' point on the underlying problem of good. Not everything can be laid out in detail in a blog thread, so kindly cf the link and watch the vid. >>3) Again: Do you think that it is wrong to kill a baby for fun, but that it can be right to make a point as in Hosea 13:16? And if you think of this question as a straw-man, please explain me your reasoning.>> First, this thread is philosophical, so theology and Sunday School tickler objections beloved of village atheists of old and resurrected by today's new atheists inherently are side tracks. But these have been a-plenty above. In this case, let us therefore pause and look in context, from AMP:
Hosea 13:12 The iniquity of Ephraim [not fully punished yet] is bound up [as in a bag]; his sin is laid up in store [for judgment and destruction]. 13 The pains of a woman in childbirth are coming on for him [to be born]; but he is an unwise son, for now when it is time [to be born], he comes not to the place where [unborn] children break forth [he needs new birth but makes no effort to acquire it]. 14 Should I ransom them from the power of Sheol (the place of the dead)? Should I redeem them from death? [a]O death, where are your plagues? O Sheol, where is your destruction? Relenting and compassion are hidden from My eyes. 15 For though among his brethren [his fellow tribes] he may be fruitful, an east wind [Assyria] will come, the breath of the Lord rising from the desert; and Ephraim’s spring shall become dry and his fountain be dried up. [Assyria] shall plunder his treasury of every precious vessel. 16 Samaria [--> stands for the northern kingdom, Israel in the narrow sense] shall bear her guilt and become desolate, for she rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword, their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women shall be ripped up. Ch 14:1 O Israel, return to the Lord your God, for you have stumbled and fallen, [visited by calamity] due to your iniquity. 2 Take with you words and return to the Lord. Say to Him, Take away all our iniquity; accept what is good and receive us graciously; so will we render [our thanks] as bullocks [to be sacrificed] and pay the confession of our lips. 3 Assyria shall not save us; we will not ride upon horses, neither will we say any more to the work of our hands [idols], You are our gods. For in You [O Lord] the fatherless find love, pity, and mercy. 4 I will heal their faithlessness; I will love them freely, for My anger is turned away from [Israel]. 5 I will be like the dew and the night mist to Israel; he shall grow and blossom like the lily and cast forth his roots like [the sturdy evergreens of] Lebanon.
In short, Hosea here describes -- as a warning of calamity consequential on rejecting the call to covenant faithfulness -- a predictable horrific CONSEQUENCE of military defeat in the context of ANE cultural settings, as opposed to APPROVAL of that consequence. And indeed, we can give the known example that at Lachish, there was discovered a mass grave with 1500 mostly women and children in it, put there by the Assyrians who defeated that southern city as an extension of their campaigns in the North. Which, as a highly documented case, will give us a clear, though painfully repulsive picture of such consequences of defeat. Forgive me for having to go in horrific details. I point to the panels the Assyrian king put in his waiting room where visitors sat before an audience with that man, a by-word for wickedness. The walls of that room were covered with cartoons of what was done at Lachish. And, while the Assyrian king put images of three men being impaled naked while wives and children are led out and also shows was it two more with curly beards -- Numidian/Ethiopian allies? -- stretched on the ground to be skinned alive he (AFAIK . . . I have never seen that in the photos of the panels, only the women etc being led out with carts . . . ) does NOT in the same panel prominently show the 1,500 women and children being led out captive, doubtless some raped, all slaughtered and bodies dumped in a mass grave. I guess even he knew that that would infuriate to the point of desperate ferocity and building a massive coalition to destroy such a plague on the earth as Assyria was hell-bent on becoming. Which strategic omission exactly shows that seizing, torture, sexual violation and murder of the defenseless is full well understood to be beyond all limits, even by the utterly ruthless. That speaks to the exact point made in the OP. (Remember, the issue is to highlight a case that leads us to understand why we rightly see this as wrong: the nature, worth, value and unalienable rights of even a young child who has no ability to exert might and no eloquence to manipulate. The nihilist's might makes right thus collapses. And, we are under government of OUGHT, living in a world with a foundational IS that grounds ought. With one serious candidate to be such an IS.) And, you need to be aware of further context, in light of say the story of Jeremiah's visit to the potter:
Jer 18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the Lord: 2 Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause you to hear My words. 3 Then I went down to the potter’s house, and behold, he was working at the wheel. 4 And the vessel that he was making from clay was spoiled in the hand of the potter; so he made it over, reworking it into another vessel as it seemed good to the potter to make it. 5 Then the word of the Lord came to me: 6 O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter does? says the Lord. Behold, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel. 7 At one time I will suddenly speak concerning a nation or kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it; 8 And if [the people of] that nation concerning which I have spoken turn from their evil, I will relent and reverse My decision concerning the evil that I thought to do to them. 9 At another time I will suddenly speak concerning a nation or kingdom, that I will build up and plant it; 10 And if they do evil in My sight, obeying not My voice, then I will regret and reverse My decision concerning the good with which I said I would benefit them. 11 Now therefore say to the men of Judah and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, Thus says the Lord: Behold, I am shaping evil against you and devising a plan against you. Return now each one from his evil way; reform your [accustomed] ways and make your [individual] actions good and right.
In short, even the most horrific warning prophecies have an implicit proviso, that general penitence leads to relenting, as happened with Nineveh through the warnings of Jonah -- who ran away because he wanted Nineveh laid waste -- 100 years before it relapsed into its old ways to do as described, and was in turn swept away by the Neo-Babylonian empire. Those who need more are directed here on. I trust we may now return from such side-tracks to the focal issue. KFkairosfocus
December 3, 2013
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#185 KF
And finally, please do not resort to vulgar language again.
I am sorry if you found some of my language vulgar but I genuinely have no idea what you are referring to. Can indicate it to me so I may avoid it in the future. Meanwhile I would still like to understand what “error exists” means over and above “people make errors”.Mark Frank
December 3, 2013
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MF: I am aware that I have been obscure etc at times. I do not think this is a case of that, having taken great pains esp in the OP. When I saw G2's remarks, I took time to deal with them by calling attention to the OP. Your intervention -- with all due respect in light of evidence that I did successfully communicate with reasonable clarity -- spews squid ink across that. The signature that something is wrong here, was your response to my explicit addressing of dismissals of foundationalism with outright sneering contempt. This, in a context where I know that at TSZ, that exact issue has come up in a current thread, in attempted dismissal of SETs. So, while I will endeavour to be as clear as I can be, I must also be aware of rhetorical squid-ink clouds spewed to allow evasion of uncomfortable points. The relevance of the latter became all too plain once I saw you -- one trained in philosophy -- dismissing something that focusses a key issue regarding worldview foundations. Which is a key context in which SETs are highly important. I take the good point and will endeavour to be clear as possible [but cf 113, simplicity is not always possible, once technical issues such as Euclid's 5th postulate enter the situation . . . ], but I must also refuse to be thrown off track by rhetorical spewed squid-ink. And finally, please do not resort to vulgar language again. Thank you, KFkairosfocus
December 3, 2013
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@KF 1) You call a "survival trait" "delusional". Why? 2) "if we see such in progress we ought to intervene to rescue if we can, how we can." I assume that God is exempt from this obligation to intervene - why? 3) Again: Do you think that it is wrong to kill a baby for fun, but that it can be right to make a point as in Hosea 13:16? And if you think of this question as a straw-man, please explain me your reasoning.DiEb
December 3, 2013
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KF As I say - you have two options when someone says they don't understand (or you think they don't understand) - assume they are at fault for failing to understand or assume you are at fault for not explaining yourself well enough. You seem to be determined to make the first assumption. In the end this is your loss because you will never be able to make your case except to those who are already converted. So I will leave it at that. Meanwhile you have never explained what "error exists" means over and above "people make errors" and so the rest of your argument never gets off the ground.Mark Frank
December 3, 2013
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F/N 2: A further reminder from the OP -- lest it be again obfuscated, on what is meant by a self-evident truth:
self-evident does not merely mean perceived as obvious to oneself, which could indeed be a manifestation of a delusion. Nay, a self evident truth [SET] is best summarised as one known to be so and to be necessarily so without further proof from other things. That is, a SET is: a: actually true — it accurately reports some relevant feature of reality (e.g.: error exists) b: immediately recognised as true once one actually understands what is being asserted, in light of our conscious experience of the world (as in, no reasonable person would but recognise the reality that error exists) c: further seen as something that must be true, on pain of patent absurdity on attempted denial. (E.g. try denying “error exists” . . . the absurdity is rapidly, forcefully manifest)
Yes, one can lack the knowledge and insight to understand a SET. Primary, by simply lacking the experience base relevant to required understanding. Secondary, by being committed to ideologies that lock out or block such understanding. That does not prevent a SET from being so, no more than mere disagreement can change the actual facts of reality. Not, in a world where that error exists is an undeniable and self-evident truth. (Which BTW is one reason so many have been making heavy weather out of what should be almost too trivial to discuss . . . as we all got red X's for cause in elementary school -- that error exists.) We live in a world where SETs -- starting with: error exists, we are certainly conscious, 2 + 3 = 5 etc -- are real, so we have to climb down off ideological horses of various colours and reckon with what that logically leads to. Where also, MORAL SETS also exist, starting with things like MY #1. In these cases, the absurdity on rejection is a moral one, usually connected to assent to or enabling of the monstrous and destructively chaotic on explicit or implicit denial. That is why objectors seek to undermine the concepts rather than directly deny. Makes no difference to the price of such denial: clinging to absurdities of en-darkenment in a Plato's Cave in the face of a sounder alternative. KFkairosfocus
December 3, 2013
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G2: Kindly ponder the answer just given to DiEb based on the OP. KFkairosfocus
December 3, 2013
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DiEb: Pardon, with all due respect, kindly cf the OP on the moral yardstick 1. You will see that the yardstick case brings out the underlying issues, that:
MORAL YARDSTICK 1: it is Self-Evidently True that it would be wrong to kidnap, torture, rape and murder a child. With corollary, that if such is in progress we are duty-bound to intervene to save the child from the monster . . . . Let us look back at that child. S/he has no physical prowess to impose his or her will. S/he has no eloquence to persuade a demonic Nero-like monster to stop from brutally despoiling and destructive sick pleasures. S/he is essentially helpless. And yet, our consciences speak loud and clear, giving an insight that this ought not to be done, yea even, if we see such in progress we ought to intervene to rescue if we can, how we can. Is that voice of conscience delusional, a mere survival trait that leads us to perceive an ought as a binding obligation where there is no such, or it is merely the threat of being caught by superior state power or the like? We already know from great reformers that the state can be in the wrong, though often that was taught at fearsome cost. (Nero’s vicious persecutions being themselves evidence in point.) And, if one is imagining that a major aspect of mindedness is delusional, where does that stop? In short, once the premise of general delusion of our key mental faculties is introduced we are in an infinite regress of Plato’s cave worlds. if we say we identify delusion A, who is to say but this is delusion B, thence C, D, E and so forth? . . . . So, we see the cogency of UD’s own WJM as he has argued:
If you do not [acknowledge] the law of non-contradiction, you have nothing to argue about. If you do not [admit] the principles of sound reason, you have nothing to argue with. If you do not [recognise] libertarian free will, you have no one to argue against. If you do not [accept] morality to be an objective commodity, you have no reason to argue in the first place.
In short, resort to dismissing key mental capacities as general delusion is a morass, a self-refuting fallacy. (Which is different from, whether one may be in specific error and even a great many may be in specific error. Indeed, if we look at the original Plato’s Cave parable, it side-steps that by pointing to the one man who is set free and recognises the apparatus of manipulation for what it is, then, having been led to see more widely, returns to try to help, only to face the power of a mass delusion rooted in an evident error that is clung to.)
Going further, the reason why we see that it is wrong to so abuse a child, is that we recognise its inherent nature, value and quasi-infinite worth that confers rights. That is, we recognise the reflection of the image of God in that child, in the mirror of this extreme, undeniable case that unfortunately has been too often realised. And once we recognise the worth and rights of that child as equal in nature to our own selves, we see the force of the key text cited by Locke in his second essay on civil govt, to found what would become modern liberty and democracy, from canon Richard Hooker -- as is also cited int eh OP:
. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man’s hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [[Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [[Eccl. Polity,preface, Bk I, "ch." 8, p.80]
From such a yardstick case and the principles it reveals, we readily reckon to others that are like unto it. In particular, you -- as have others -- have projected thoughts into our heads and words into our mouths that simply cannot belong there. Your projection of other motives and attitudes -- which echoes similar talking points used by others -- is improper and unworthy, a case of setting p and knocking over a strawman laced with toxic stereotyping and scapegoating accusations and insinuations then setting it alight. Kindly refrain from doing such again. KFkairosfocus
December 3, 2013
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F/N: Well, I managed to unthinkingly eliminate a comment on noticing and correcting bad language above again from MF. I will try again. I note on several points: 113: Adjusted to use average, to eliminate pathologies not thought of y/day. Mapou: It is your privilege to reject what others find exceedingly useful, but understand that transfinite numbers are as coherent and useful in their own way as are zero, negative numbers and imaginary/complex ones. The same for the concept of continuum, limits, series, calculus etc. All of these involve use of the transfinite. And the modern world would be impossible without them. LANGUAGE: MF et al, you know full well that vulgar language is NOT welcome, and kindly do not hide under pretences about freedom of expression. The public exists as a legitimate domain in which for the protection of families and children, there are proper limits on behaviour, including verbal behaviour. MF: I am now satisfied that much of your objection above is a playing of further verbal games, in this case squid-ink cloud evasions. You are for instance, a trained philosopher by your own reckoning. Thus, you know or should know of major debates over the past several decades regarding worldview foundations and epistemological justification. So also, you know or should know precisely why I took time to lay out at 101 level -- cf the infographic above in the OP, onlookers -- a step by step short discussion of the alternatives and implications leading to how and why we can have a finitely remote foundation and how to avoid circularity in so doing. This ends up highlighting the issue of comparative difficulties across worldviews, and leads onwards to the stance, that one aims to hold a reasonable faith as the framework for one's worldview. Your snidely dismissive language on this -- all too reminiscent of the attitude in Ac 17 -- tells me what I (and others) most need to know. G2: With all due respect, the answer, again, is in the OP, with particular reference tot he yardstick case and the state paper, the US DOI, which draws out its significance. If you find it "frightening" that it is patent that it is wrong to kidnap, torture, rape and murder a child, or that it is our duty to intervene to rescue such a child before it is too late, that speaks volumes. The same, if you find it "frightening" that we have a nature and a purpose that grants us rights endowed by our Creator, such as: life, liberty, pursuit of fulfillment and happiness in light of purpose. or is it "frightening" that we have a collective right to audit government [through a free, responsible and fearless press] and to petition for reform, failing which if there is defiance of remonstrance, we have a right of -- thanks to the ballot box -- peaceful revolution. The alternative to that, with all its problems, is the nihilist's credo that might and manipulation make 'right.' You obviously do not wish to admit that, and you plainly do not want to face where the implicit radical relativism probably shaped by evolutionary materialism and/or its fellow travellers that lurks behind your words leads. But that is where it leads, and for good reason anchored by a lot of painful history, I and many others refuse to go there. We cannot force you to let go of absurdities, but we can and will expose them for what they are -- by the revealing light of self evident moral truths such as the yardstick discussed in the OP. SC: Pardon, but it does seem that SB has the better of your exchange. I suggest to you that there are self evident truths that once one understands, will show themselves true and true on pain of patent absurdity if they are rejected -- an absurdity all too evident across the modern world. Yes there is a degree of faith involved in accepting them, but then this is a case of strong-form knowledge, well justified, certainly true belief at foundation level. Or, better yet, at plumb-line level. I draw your attention to the use of pistis in 2 Tim 3:13 - 17, with its echoes of the characteristic Greek use of pistis as soundly persuasive rhetorical proof. That is,
faith in the NT sense is based on soundly arrived at conviction regarding key truth and trust in the object of faith in that light, leading to confidently taking God at his word and his promises, multiplied by joyful experience of the manifest power of God through the fulfillment of those promises which we experience directly and/or through the testimony of others.
Faith in the biblical sense is a leap into the light, not a leap into the dark. (And yes, Schaeffer evidently misunderstood key points in Aquinas, probably echoing what he would likely have been taught or might have thought on reading early remarks without the much further along balancing thoughts. That is part of the problem, and we cannot really blame Aquinas for not anticipating how some would read and run with corners of what he had to say. But also Schaeffer is to be respected for his pioneering effective work on cultural critique towards a fresh reformation, cf my 101 on that here on.) KFkairosfocus
December 3, 2013
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StephenB:
If you don’t know that it is immoral to torture babies for fun, and if you don’t recognize it as a self-evident truth, there is nothing anyone could show you that would change your mind. Self evident truths cannot be demonstrated.
Hosea 13:16:
The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open.
So, it is not immoral to have the babies killed just to make a point?DiEb
December 2, 2013
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#173 TSErik
Because then it would lend credence to your assertion.
It would lend credence – but it doesn’t mean I must find it. As I said before there are plenty of relative/subjective opinions which are found in every known society. Therefore, not being able to find a society that does not have opinion X does not prove X is objective. (If you can see your way through all those negatives).
I look at the world and I see disparate cultures, stretched over the eons without contact with one another, who cannot agree on anything, and yet they all share the concept of murder; a moral principle. Ockham’s Razor would suggest there is something innate in humans that would cause this, rather than the more difficult idea that humans all arrived at the same idea at the same time. Even the atheist camps have realized this and have begun to try to explain certain objective morality with things like evolutionary psychology. Table the question of whether or not the trait is divinely inspired.
Begun to realise this! It is the long-standing explanation of subjective morality since Hume that it is part of our nature just as we all like eating and sex. Of course he didn’t think it evolved, but it has long been accepted by relativists/subjectivists that the common core of our moral opinion is part of human nature (whatever your theory of how that developed). This is just as parsimonious explanation as some transcendent objective reality.
In this instance, Mr. Frank, you are quite simply wrong.
Wrong about what? You have proposed an absolutely absurd criterion for objectivity – universal agreement. That is all that I see.Mark Frank
December 2, 2013
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Graham 2
SB: Thats just plain dishonest. I clearly explained why you evaded the question. Not much use continuing this.
I didn't evade the question. Each time you asked me a question, I answered it, and each time you followed up, I answered the follow up. If you have another follow up, feel free to ask again. For some reason, you just don't like the answers. The problem, I suspect, is that you have been persuaded into believing that all truths are empirical truths that can be empirically verified. This is not the case. If you don't know that it is immoral to torture babies for fun, and if you don't recognize it as a self-evident truth, there is nothing anyone could show you that would change your mind. Self evident truths cannot be demonstrated.StephenB
December 2, 2013
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SCordova @174 Think of this, though Sal: The same moral principle is understood in all of your examples. It is the concept that ending life is wrong. This was understood in all examples. Would that not be the objective part? The questions concerning justification are certainly questions that have been debated from time in memoriam. But the subjective justifications must be explored because of this thing that compels us, as humans, to understand that ending life is wrong. Certainly there are just and unjust reasons for ending a life, however these justifications are satellites to the objective morality, and not the thing itself.TSErik
December 2, 2013
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scd: the best one can do in such cases is go by what one believes exactly.
Both sides in the American Civil War had individuals convinced of the their moral warrant to aim guns at the other side. Joshua Chamberlain, who was a devout abolitionist and as a youth wanted to be a missionary writes:
"I saw him sitting there gently reclined against the tree . . . this boy of scarcely sixteen summers," he stated. "His cap had fallen to the ground on one side, his hand resting on his knee. It clasped a little testament opened at some familiar place. He wore the gray. He was my enemy, this boy. He was dead—the boy, my enemy—but I shall see him forever."
Bible believers were aiming guns at each other each convinced of the moral rightness of their cause. I think there was a right and wrong, but maybe not so clear. I think the South was wrong to sanction slavery, but there is some debate whether resolving the slavery problem had to be done with guns and at such a terrible price. Difficult questions like the Civil war exist today. For example, is it moral for one side to have its nuclear weapons pointed at cities? My mother was advised by doctors during one of her pregnancies to abort the fetus that would become one of my sisters because in their opinion pregnancy risked my mother's life. My father and mother were at a loss as to what to do. I'm quite sure all the kids would have gladly laid down their life to save mom, but obviously they could not communicate that to the doctor, and even so, would it have been moral to terminate the pregnancy? Dad, when convinced that Mom would die, went to a Catholic priest for advice. The priest callously told dad, "let them both die". The family never quite forgot that callous attitude. Dad prayed every day and both parents decided to risk mom's life and hope the doctors were wrong in their diagnosis (they were wrong). In my parents case, what they viewed as moral, given the information they had, was to put mom and daughter's life at risk so that the daughter would be born. I'm told what made Dad's mind up was when the doctor's described the abortion procedure and how his daughter's lives would be terminated. The moral thing to do seemed quite clear to them, but in other cases, I can see that it might not be so clear. Hence, I don't think, even supposing there is a right and wrong in God's eyes, that it will always be clear to those who believe in God.scordova
December 2, 2013
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I am asking why as a relativist must I find such a society. Maybe everyone subjectively agrees on a concept of murder.
Because then it would lend credence to your assertion. Funny how atheists scream about parsimony until it bites them in the behind. I look at the world and I see disparate cultures, stretched over the eons without contact with one another, who cannot agree on anything, and yet they all share the concept of murder; a moral principle. Ockham's Razor would suggest there is something innate in humans that would cause this, rather than the more difficult idea that humans all arrived at the same idea at the same time. Even the atheist camps have realized this and have begun to try to explain certain objective morality with things like evolutionary psychology. Table the question of whether or not the trait is divinely inspired. In this instance, Mr. Frank, you are quite simply wrong.TSErik
December 2, 2013
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SB: Thats just plain dishonest. I clearly explained why you evaded the question. Not much use continuing this.Graham2
December 2, 2013
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Gragam2 "SB: While you are back, could you answer my question at #121 ?. Ta." Have your forgotten. I answered it @140, you responded @141, and I followed up @144.StephenB
December 2, 2013
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Miscellaneous musings and random ruminations: Of course, it's easily possible to justify murdering a baby! It's done all the time. All you need to do is call it something else. "Fetus" comes to mind. Then, you argue about other, superseding rights. Same thing was done to Africans kept as slaves. They were called "property," and slavery hid behind arguments about superseding rights, called "states rights." . . . The smallest determinate value of Pi in all possible worlds is exactly 2, if the circle is large enough. The value for Pi also changes in strong gravitational fields. Think about it. . . . What's the difference between the numbers used in physics that are rational from those that are irrational? Are irrational numbers ritually unclean? ;-) -QQuerius
December 2, 2013
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5for as to "but wrt your music link – how can you bear to listen to such turgid nonsense?" Jealous???? Steve Martin - Atheists Don't Have No Songs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFWA1A9XFi8bornagain77
December 2, 2013
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SB: While you are back, could you answer my question at #121 ?. Ta.Graham2
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Salvador:
In the Old Testament, the Lord’s army was expected to carry out genocide with a certain level of zeal. I suppose the Lord expected his troops to delight in doing the Lord’s work like the Salvation Army of today.
Just a reminder to ask the Salvation Army what they think of Sal's painting them as genocidal zealots in the lords work.Mung
December 2, 2013
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Scordova
1, #2, #4 are were deduced by Gödel’s logic, not faith-first fideism, thus it was through reason I arrived that these can only be arrived at by faith! They are rooted in considerations of mathematical incompleteness, Heisenberg uncertainty, and considerations of Kolmogorov complexity.
I am not concerned with the rationale for your anti-iontellectualism but the fact of it. I am not concerned with the reasons that you deny the Law of Non-Contradiction but the fact of it.
It doesn’t matter that StephenB promotes false claims under the banner of “philosophical assessment” — they are rooted in falsehood and presumption, it is falsehood, and thus it is a fabrication from his misunderstandings and misperceptions and sloppy and inaccurate mischaracterizations.
As long as you reject the Law of Non-Contradiction as a knowable, non-negotiable truth then I am not promoting a falsehood.
StephenB could have asked, “Sal is it your position that God is unjust?”
Well, not so fast. First, you take a violent passage from the Old Testament and say,
How could this possibly be moral? God the Intelligent Designer could of course bring any of those killed back to life. He has the right to say who lives and dies and who can get resurrected. He brought back several who had died. He re-created the ear of someone who had it chopped off by Peter.
So, right away we have confusion. Your first sentence suggests that it is not moral, but your second and third sentence say, in effect, that perhaps it can be justified after all. Then you say,
As blood thirsty as some of the troops were, in the time of Moses, even for them, it was a little hard to kill helpless infants — but it was God’s command.
So, now I get to juxtapose these two comments
how can this [awful behavior] be moral?
with
but it was God’s command
So, how do I interpret that? A perfectly reasonable take would be, “God commanded something awful that just doesn’t seem right. You tell me that I misinterpreted it, and so I take you at your word. Indeed, I am sorry that I did misinterpret it. But don’t say that I am making things up. Also, I did make a relevant comment which you ignored, when I said: ---"Perhaps you are simply saying that God’s actions were just because of the circumstances, in which case, we are on the same page in that sense. If so, however, it seems that you are trying to have it both ways: On the one hand, you blast the Old Testament and say, “Isn’t that awful,” On the other hand, you also say, “never mind, God had his reasons after all.” I really do think you need to make up your mind." So, I expressed my misgivings, and, as I often do, pointed to what I perceived as inconsistencies--potential reasons for misunderstanding you. I realize that you cannot respond to everything, but surely you could have taken time out to deal with that one.StephenB
December 2, 2013
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