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William Lane Craig’s video on the objectivity of morality and the linked reality of God

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Here:

[youtube OxiAikEk2vU]

In this video, Dr Craig argues that we have good reason to accept the objectivity of ought, and from that we see that there is a credible ground of such, God.

In slightly more details, if one rejects the objectivity of the general sense of OUGHT as governing our behaviour, we are implying a general delusion.

Where, as there are no firewalls in the mind . . . a general delusion undermines the general credibility of knowledge and rationality.

And in practice even those who most passionately argue for moral subjectivity live by the premise that moral principles such as fairness, justice, doing good by neighbour etc are binding. That is, there is no good reason to doubt that reality.

OUGHT, credibly, is real and binding.

But if OUGHT is real, it has to be grounded in a foundational IS in the cosmos.

After centuries of debate, there is still only one serious candidate, the inherently good Creator-God, a necessary and maximally great being.

Essentially, the being we find referred to in the US Declaration of Independence of 1776 (which also shows the positive, liberating historic impact of such a view):

When . . . it becomes necessary for one people . . . to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, [cf Rom 1:18 – 21, 2:14 – 15], that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. –That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security . . . .

(Readers may wish to see this discussion in context as well.)

By way of contrast, on the evolutionary materialist perspective, we may for instance see Dawkins, in  as reproduced in “God’s Utility Function” in Sci Am in 1995:

Nature is not cruel, only pitilessly indifferent. This lesson is one of the hardest for humans to learn. We cannot accept that things might be neither good nor evil, neither cruel nor kind, but simply callous: indifferent to all suffering, lacking all purpose . . . . In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won’t find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but pitiless indifference . . . . DNA neither cares nor knows. DNA just is. And we dance to its music. [[ “God’s Utility Function,” Sci. Am. Aug 1995, pp. 80 – 85.]

. . . or (adding overnight), Michael Ruse & E. O. Wilson in the 1991 form of the essay, “The Evolution of Ethics”

The time has come to take seriously the fact [[–> This is a gross error at the outset, as macro-evolution is a theory (an explanation) about the unobserved past of origins and so cannot be a fact on the level of the observed roundness of the earth or the orbiting of planets around the sun etc.] that we humans are modified monkeys, not the favored Creation of a Benevolent God on the Sixth Day . . . We must think again especially about our so-called ‘ethical principles.’ The question is not whether biology—specifically, our evolution—is connected with ethics, but how. As evolutionists, we see that no justification of the traditional kind is possible. Morality, or more strictly our belief in morality, is merely an adaptation put in place to further our reproductive ends. Hence the basis of ethics does not lie in God’s will  … In an important sense, ethics as we understand it is an illusion fobbed off on us by our genes to get us to cooperate. It is without external groundingEthics is illusory inasmuch as it persuades us that it has an objective reference. This is the crux of the biological position. [= evolutionary materialist philosophical premise, duly dressed up in a lab coat . . . ] Once it is grasped, everything falls into place. [Michael Ruse & E. O. Wilson, “The Evolution of Ethics,” Religion and the Natural Sciences: The Range of Engagement, , ed. J. E. Hutchingson, Orlando, Fl.:Harcourt and Brace, 1991.

. . . and Provine in his Darwin Day address at U. Tenn 1998:

Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent . . . . The first 4 implications are so obvious to modern naturalistic evolutionists that I will spend little time defending them. Human free will, however, is another matter. Even evolutionists have trouble swallowing that implication. I will argue that humans are locally determined systems that make choices. They have, however, no free will . . .

With Sir Francis Crick backing up in an inadvertent self-refutation:

. . . that “You”, your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. As Lewis Carroll’s Alice might have phrased: “You’re nothing but a pack of neurons.” [–> But Sir Francis, what does this imply about your own responsible freedom and ability to choose to think reasonably?] This hypothesis is so alien to the ideas of most people today that it can truly be called astonishing. [Cf. dramatisation of unintended potential consequences, here.]

So, it seems that if we are inclined to accept evolutionary materialist scientism and to reject God, we do end up in a want of foundation for morality. Which carries the onward implication of a general delusion and breakdown of the credibility of rational mindedness and responsible freedom.

Thus, reductio ad absurdum.

At least, that is how it looks from where I sit and type. Thoughts? (And if the thoughts are evolutionary materialistic, how do you ground credibility of mind and morals on such? For surely, blindly mechanical computation is not contemplation.) END

PS: I think it worth adding (Jan 29) a Koukl lecture:

[vimeo 9026899]

 

Comments
KF, It's all beside the point. Brent asked if there were any societies in which killing, theft or cheating were regarded as morally acceptable. The question was not about the advantages of Christianity but supposedly universal values (or prohibitions). Doing all manner of harm, whenever possible, to outsiders regarded as enemies (and dehumanised/demonised accordingly) is perfectly acceptable in many cultures.Piotr
January 30, 2015
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Piotr, When Jesus was challenged on "who is my neighbour," do you know what he did? Hint, it's in the link on discussing objective morality (I just didn't include it all here. Y'know, all that long boring complicated stuff that isn't worth the bother to look at; everybody knows these Christians are ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked . . . they cannot have anything serious to say.) Let me clip straight from the translated eyewitness lifetime, prime source report on public challenges to that controversial Galilean people were viewing as a prophet or even more and who was stirring the ire of the power brokers:
Luke 10:25 And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How do you read it?” 27 And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” 28 And he said to him, “You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live.” 29 But he, desiring to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?” 30 Jesus replied,
“A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and he fell among robbers, who stripped him and beat him and departed, leaving him half dead. 31 Now by chance a priest was going down that road, and when he saw him he passed by on the other side. 32 So likewise a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he journeyed, came to where he was, and when he saw him, he had compassion. 34 He went to him and bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he set him on his own animal and brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 And the next day he took out two denarii[c] and gave them to the innkeeper, saying, ‘Take care of him, and whatever more you spend, I will repay you when I come back.’
36 Which of these three, do you think, proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell among the robbers?” 37 He said, “The one who showed him mercy.” And Jesus said to him, “You go, and do likewise.” [ESV]
To understand, there were racial and religious differences going back hundreds of years and some deep resentments on both sides to the point of ingrained enmity. In that toxic atmosphere, Jesus' parable on neighbourliness and lack of neighbourliness . . . and who was not being neighbourly [and you betcha this was close to home or it would have been hotly answered] . . . was a rhetorical, spiritual and ethical earthquake. So, that is the scriptural paradigm standard for neighbourliness, directly taught by the principal teacher of the Judaeo Christian ethical tradition. Taught to the point where the traditional title of the parable, The Good Samaritan, has entered our language in its own right. And it is still a deeply challenging text to this very day, when we are tempted to mistreat our fellow son of Adam or daughter of Eve. Yes, there are cases where policing must happen and wars fought, but that must always be in due proportion and in defense of the civil peace of justice. KFkairosfocus
January 30, 2015
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I’d like to be informed of the society who encouraged their young children to grow into robust liars.
Truth-telling is a good example of an objective moral value (not an entire code itself, but one value in a code). Without the moral virtue of telling the truth (even to oneself), no analysis could be done. If equal moral value is assigned to truth and falsehood, it would be impossible to determine the value of anything. So to talk about morality at all, the objective moral value of truth-telling is necessary and must be recognized as such.Silver Asiatic
January 30, 2015
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Z
If you only argument is that people can agree to codes of conduct, then sure. We usually call these codes of law, not moral codes, especially as the implications of laws are not always found to be moral for everyone. Most people mean something else when they say morality is objective.
My argument is to distinguish first between subjective and objective morality. Objective moral codes are given as universal and for the moral improvement of the person. Aristotle's code of virtue is not a set of laws to regulate society, for example - but are for the betterment of the individual. They're moral laws or values - seen to be part of human nature and also given by God. They're fixed in that sense. That's very different from a set of civil laws, for example as well as from subjective moral values.Silver Asiatic
January 30, 2015
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Timmy: As I already said, I’m using it the same way you are. We've avoided the term. We used the term "in-group status" once to indicate membership in the in-group. Is that what you mean, whether someone is a member of the group? If so, why have you resisted simply saying so? Timmy: Uh, actually yes. That is the whole point of the evolutionary explanation: to reduce selflessness to selfishness, by way of in-group/out-group status. Sacrificing for the group isn’t really sacrificing. That doesn't mean the person isn't acting selflessly. When a lion suckles her young, and protects them from danger, she does it out of maternal love. That this love is a evolutionary advantage isn't her motivation. Timmy: We’re talking about the Christian phenomenon, which your “group” theory doesn’t explain. Christians were very much the in-group and persecuted out-groups for centuries, even other Christians who might have a slightly different flavor of doctrine. Is that what you mean? Box: Unchanging moral principles are applied differently when ones world view implies that members of the out-group are e.g. inferior. You might want to expand on which "unchanging moral principles" you have in mind.Zachriel
January 30, 2015
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Zac: The basic moral equation is in-group out-group dynamics.
This is also covered by world view. Unchanging moral principles are applied differently when ones world view implies that members of the out-group are e.g. inferior.Box
January 30, 2015
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Z: "Perhaps you could provide a link to how you are using the term “group status”. " As I already said, I'm using it the same way you are. What other way would I be using it? No. Someone who sacrifices themselves for others is selfless by any reasonable definition. You are conflating different meanings of “group status”. " Uh, actually yes. That is the whole point of the evolutionary explanation: to reduce selflessness to selfishness, by way of in-group/out-group status. Sacrificing for the group isn't really sacrificing. "All societies have individuals who exhibit out-group altruism, just as all societies have people who define their in-group narrowly. Interesting how you defined your own group as ‘superior’ in this regard." Nice dodge. Your claim is that what is considered "moral" is fundamentally based on who is in what group. No one ever said you didn't accept the existence of altruistic outliers. That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about the Christian phenomenon, which your "group" theory doesn't explain. What explains it is that Jesus (being, if you will, the Source of objective morality) illuminated objective morality for mankind. The effect was staggering. Attributing it to altruistic outliers is laughable. "There are many commonalities in human culture. That doesn’t make morality objective, just shared." Lol, you might as well say that mathematics is merely shared, not objective. We can be reasonably certain that morality is objective because, like other truths, it has a remarkable power to displace nonsense.Timmy
January 30, 2015
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Brent: Would you tell me of any society that has upheld selfishness as a virtue? ... There are many commonalities in human culture. That doesn't make morality objective, just shared. Silver Asiatic: Work is done to help the person make better moral choices. It sounds like you disagree with that point of view. Nope. Box: When you no longer consider someone inferior, you don’t change your moral principles – you change the application of your moral principles. The basic moral equation is in-group out-group dynamics. The in-group has become more inclusive, and nowadays is primarily expressed on the national or religious level. Timmy: I did answer. I answered very, very clearly. Perhaps you could provide a link to how you are using the term "group status". Timmy: Lol, the whole basis of the “morality from groups” nonsense is that it’s just a higher order of selfishness. No. Someone who sacrifices themselves for others is selfless by any reasonable definition. You are conflating different meanings of "group status". Timmy: Given all your talk about how morality can be reduced to group status, the substantial evidence of moral behavior that ignores group status (mainly by Christians) makes your response seem a bit silly. All societies have individuals who exhibit out-group altruism, just as all societies have people who define their in-group narrowly. Interesting how you defined your own group as 'superior' in this regard. Timmy: If altruism was merely an evolutionary defect, it would be rare. Not sure why you would consider it a defect. It is obviously an expression of human nature.Zachriel
January 30, 2015
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Brent, You list a number of antisocial behaviours and ask if societies tolerate them. Game theory will tell you that such behaviour, if practiced by a sufficiently large proportion of individuals, will make cooperation impossible. Society will disintegrate. It follows that stable societies have to restrict such behaviour if they are to survive. Note, however, that if "neighbours" belong to an out-group, many communities don't mind killing them, taking away their property, cheating them in business, etc. They might even regard such behaviour as patriotic and praiseworthy. Or, say, "is it OK to kill animals for sport"? Many people in our own civilisation think it's perfectly fine. The great Christian philosopher and moralist William Lane Craig, Doctor Invincibilis, has recently argued that animals (other than the great apes and humans) don't "really" suffer 'cause they lack WLC's sophisticated neural pathways allowing him to experience a higher-order awareness of having subjective mental states. Therefore, they are not aware of being in pain. If they show its symptoms -- kicking about and screaming when you torture them -- it's only a physiological reaction without any moral significance. What can I say? I'm glad there's no chance WLC could ever get near my family pets.Piotr
January 30, 2015
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Zachriel, "It’s a reference to a well-known fallacy. What is the difference between “genuine morality” and garden-variety morality?" And I was mocking your reference for being misapplied. The difference is, genuine morality cannot be reduced to self-interest. Call your garden variety "morality" what it is: self-interest. "Not sure why you think that. It has more to do with attachment or compassion in most cases, than some rarefied morality." Given all your talk about how morality can be reduced to group status, the substantial evidence of moral behavior that ignores group status (mainly by Christians) makes your response seem a bit silly. What, are people who become Christians genetically predisposed to be more compassionate? Lol. "We asked you to explain how you are using “group status”. You didn’t answer. Do you mean gaining status within a group, or the feeling of belonging to the group?" I did answer. I answered very, very clearly. "Someone who sacrifices their life for their fellow in battle is hardly acting selfishly. " Lol, the whole basis of the "morality from groups" nonsense is that it's just a higher order of selfishness. Individual members of the group tend to be better off if they occasionally sacrifice for the good of the group. I think you know this. "As for the “genuine” altruist, that is just an extension of the in-group to all of humanity. It’s rare." We're not talking about altruism, remember? We're talking about objective morality. If altruism was merely an evolutionary defect, it would be rare. But because what you call altruism is really just an expression of programmed (but corrupted) objective morality, it is no surprise that you can get so many people to practice it. "There’s been a historical transition which has placed a higher and more equitable value on human life. Moral values have changed over history." Yeah, because of people recognizing and appealing to objective morality, and throwing out "group status" as the primary factor in "moral" behavior.Timmy
January 30, 2015
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Zac: There’s been a historical transition which has placed a higher and more equitable value on human life. Moral values have changed over history.
Nope, unchanging moral principles are applied differently in accord with different world views. When you no longer consider someone inferior, you don't change your moral principles - you change the application of your moral principles.Box
January 30, 2015
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Zac
The individual doesn’t choose to get angry and kick the dog. People are born that way.
I don't know if you're familiar with work done towards moral education in many areas like criminal rehabilitation, psychological therapy, addiction recovery or anger management where the belief is that the individual makes choices about his moral actions. Work is done to help the person make better moral choices. It sounds like you disagree with that point of view.Silver Asiatic
January 30, 2015
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Zach, Would you tell me of any society that has upheld selfishness as a virtue? Will you find the society that thought it good to be a coward? Could you show me the society which said killing for no good reason was fine? Please introduce me to the society that thought stealing from their neighbor was praiseworthy. I'd like to be informed of the society who encouraged their young children to grow into robust liars. Please show us the society that thought it good to cheat in sport or business. TIABrent
January 30, 2015
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FYI - Why Evil Disproves AtheismHeartlander
January 30, 2015
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Silver Asiatic: Conscience refers to values external to the individual when the individual feels the need to answer to values that are independent of the individual. Conscience is clearly internal. Silver Asiatic: This is non-subjective in experience because the individual is not inventing or choosing the values that the conscience is pointing to. The individual doesn't choose to get angry and kick the dog. People are born that way. They like candy better than a hot poker in the eye. They love their children. They hate their boss.Zachriel
January 30, 2015
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Timmy: If true Scotsmen are logical Scotsmen, sure. It's a reference to a well-known fallacy. What is the difference between "genuine morality" and garden-variety morality? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman Timmy: And people who recognize objective morality are not only vastly more likely to exhibit selflessness to strangers, but also to enemies. Not sure why you think that. It has more to do with attachment or compassion in most cases, than some rarefied morality. Timmy: Are you getting, yet, that “group status” is good explanation for the behavior of selfish people, but not for moral people? We asked you to explain how you are using "group status". You didn't answer. Do you mean gaining status within a group, or the feeling of belonging to the group? Someone who sacrifices their life for their fellow in battle is hardly acting selfishly. Timmy: The explanatory power breaks down when investigating people who recognize the objective morality, demonstrating that the “group status” theory is false or incomplete. There are very few who don't protect and nurture their own children over others. As for the "genuine" altruist, that is just an extension of the in-group to all of humanity. It's rare. As we pointed out, humanists are often derided or worse by those who have a strong affinity for in-groups. The question, remember, is whether morality is objective, not whether some people are altruistic or not. Silver Asiatic: Once it is external it can be accessed and evaluated as an objective entity. It makes it an objective moral code – as with Aristotle’s code of virtue. If you only argument is that people can agree to codes of conduct, then sure. We usually call these codes of law, not moral codes, especially as the implications of laws are not always found to be moral for everyone. Most people mean something else when they say morality is objective. Box: This value isn’t applied from nowhere. It’s applied because our world view (in the western world) has changed. That's right! There's been a historical transition which has placed a higher and more equitable value on human life. Moral values have changed over history.Zachriel
January 30, 2015
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Zac
Most people have an active moral sense. But even when they agree on matters of conscience, that doesn’t mean it is objective. It just means it is shared.
I wasn't referring to shared values or a consensus. Conscience refers to values external to the individual when the individual feels the need to answer to values that are independent of the individual. A person who feels guilt within conscience can feel a higher value "calling" him to correct or repair or make amends for the guilty act. This is non-subjective in experience because the individual is not inventing or choosing the values that the conscience is pointing to.Silver Asiatic
January 30, 2015
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Zac: It has to do with values. Nowadays, people apply a very high value to the individual.
This value isn't applied from nowhere. It's applied because our world view (in the western world) has changed.Box
January 30, 2015
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Z
The code is external, but that doesn’t make morality objective.
Once it is external it can be accessed and evaluated as an objective entity. It makes it an objective moral code - as with Aristotle's code of virtue. The code is adopted for reasons other than subectivity.Silver Asiatic
January 30, 2015
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Zachriel, "All true Scotsmen agree." If true Scotsmen are logical Scotsmen, sure. "People often exhibit selflessness. They are more likely to exhibit this characteristic for those to whom they feel attachment, but will sometimes exhibit selflessness towards strangers." And people who recognize objective morality are not only vastly more likely to exhibit selflessness to strangers, but also to enemies. Are you getting, yet, that "group status" is good explanation for the behavior of selfish people, but not for moral people? "You keep using “group status” is different ways." No, I don't. I mean, by group status, exactly what you mean. "People value their own families higher than other people [...]" The explanatory power breaks down when investigating people who recognize the objective morality, demonstrating that the "group status" theory is false or incomplete. "The consistency of observation between observers is an important test of objectivity." So is comparing apples to apples, as in not mistaking self-interested behavior for "moral" behavior.Timmy
January 30, 2015
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Silver Asiatic: Once it is codified it is no longer subjective. It is external to the individual. The code is external, but that doesn't make morality objective.Zachriel
January 30, 2015
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Silver Asiatic: The reason the code is adopted and is binding is also non-subjective. It is because the code points to universal, external values that the person is bound by it. Subjective morality can be codified, either by fiat, or by mutual agreement. Silver Asiatic: Conscience points to binding values external to the individual. Most people have an active moral sense. But even when they agree on matters of conscience, that doesn't mean it is objective. It just means it is shared.Zachriel
January 30, 2015
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Z
Subjective morality can still be codified, either by fiat, or by mutual agreement.
Once it is codified it is no longer subjective. It is external to the individual.Silver Asiatic
January 30, 2015
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KF
An objective moral code that is reasonably warranted, is one that may be held by a reasonable person as binding. As obtains for the case of the kidnapping and sexual assault then murder of a young child.
That's an essential point that is usually missed in these discussions. The reason the code is adopted and is binding is also non-subjective. It is because the code points to universal, external values that the person is bound by it. With subjectivism, the reason the person codes values as good or bad is person - it's not because of the authority or presence of external moral values. In the objective moral code, there are two basic reasons - both objective - that the person accepts the code: 1. Conscience points to binding values external to the individual. 2. God is the creator and source of the moral law.Silver Asiatic
January 30, 2015
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kairosfocus: you and your ilk keep converting the question at stake into a matter of perceptions and views of cultures, which is very different. Ah, we're a member of an ilk. In any case, if the claim is that morality is objective, then the perception of independent observers is, of course, relevant, even if not the only possible criteria.Zachriel
January 30, 2015
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Silver Asiatic: The same is true with regard to scientific observations. But we consider them objective because they are external or independent of the individual observer. The consistency of observation between observers is an important test of objectivity. Silver Asiatic: Objective morality differs from subjective morality because an objective code can be referenced external to the individual. Subjective morality can still be codified, either by fiat, or by mutual agreement.Zachriel
January 30, 2015
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Box: An ill-informed judge doesn’t rule unfairly because of his moral principles, but because he simply doesn’t know the truth. It has to do with values. Nowadays, people apply a very high value to the individual. But it was not always so. In most of human history, people divided themselves into various groups, with some groups having much higher value than others. Indeed, even today, people don't consider everyone of equal value despite the rhetoric. People value their own families higher than other people. They value their own tribes higher than other people. (Through most of human history, tribes were usually a group of closely related people.) People distrust people different from themselves. (Again, people are generally more closely related to those who look like themselves.) They value their own nation and religion higher than those of other nations and religions. (Do we really have to peruse the internet to find examples?) Only recently have large numbers of people become humanists, but they are subject to scorn or worse by nationalists and religionists. The in-group out-group dynamic is alive and well.Zachriel
January 30, 2015
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Z, you and your ilk keep converting the question at stake into a matter of perceptions and views of cultures, which is very different. And in the teeth of repeated caution on the switch. KFkairosfocus
January 30, 2015
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SA, you are right as regards the difference between objective and absolute; not to mention, true. An objective moral code that is reasonably warranted, is one that may be held by a reasonable person as binding. As obtains for the case of the kidnapping and sexual assault then murder of a young child. KFkairosfocus
January 30, 2015
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kairosfocus: and especially cases like the one you keep skirting: it is wrong to kidnap, torture, sexually assault and murder a young child. Skirt it? We keep referring to it. Human sacrifice has been common in many societies. Not only did they think it not wrong, but they thought "It’s the right thing to do!”Zachriel
January 30, 2015
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