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William Lane Craig’s video on the objectivity of morality and the linked reality of God

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Here:

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In this video, Dr Craig argues that we have good reason to accept the objectivity of ought, and from that we see that there is a credible ground of such, God.

In slightly more details, if one rejects the objectivity of the general sense of OUGHT as governing our behaviour, we are implying a general delusion.

Where, as there are no firewalls in the mind . . . a general delusion undermines the general credibility of knowledge and rationality.

And in practice even those who most passionately argue for moral subjectivity live by the premise that moral principles such as fairness, justice, doing good by neighbour etc are binding. That is, there is no good reason to doubt that reality.

OUGHT, credibly, is real and binding.

But if OUGHT is real, it has to be grounded in a foundational IS in the cosmos.

After centuries of debate, there is still only one serious candidate, the inherently good Creator-God, a necessary and maximally great being.

Essentially, the being we find referred to in the US Declaration of Independence of 1776 (which also shows the positive, liberating historic impact of such a view):

When . . . it becomes necessary for one people . . . to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, [cf Rom 1:18 – 21, 2:14 – 15], that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. –That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security . . . .

(Readers may wish to see this discussion in context as well.)

By way of contrast, on the evolutionary materialist perspective, we may for instance see Dawkins, in  as reproduced in “God’s Utility Function” in Sci Am in 1995:

Nature is not cruel, only pitilessly indifferent. This lesson is one of the hardest for humans to learn. We cannot accept that things might be neither good nor evil, neither cruel nor kind, but simply callous: indifferent to all suffering, lacking all purpose . . . . In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won’t find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but pitiless indifference . . . . DNA neither cares nor knows. DNA just is. And we dance to its music. [[ “God’s Utility Function,” Sci. Am. Aug 1995, pp. 80 – 85.]

. . . or (adding overnight), Michael Ruse & E. O. Wilson in the 1991 form of the essay, “The Evolution of Ethics”

The time has come to take seriously the fact [[–> This is a gross error at the outset, as macro-evolution is a theory (an explanation) about the unobserved past of origins and so cannot be a fact on the level of the observed roundness of the earth or the orbiting of planets around the sun etc.] that we humans are modified monkeys, not the favored Creation of a Benevolent God on the Sixth Day . . . We must think again especially about our so-called ‘ethical principles.’ The question is not whether biology—specifically, our evolution—is connected with ethics, but how. As evolutionists, we see that no justification of the traditional kind is possible. Morality, or more strictly our belief in morality, is merely an adaptation put in place to further our reproductive ends. Hence the basis of ethics does not lie in God’s will  … In an important sense, ethics as we understand it is an illusion fobbed off on us by our genes to get us to cooperate. It is without external groundingEthics is illusory inasmuch as it persuades us that it has an objective reference. This is the crux of the biological position. [= evolutionary materialist philosophical premise, duly dressed up in a lab coat . . . ] Once it is grasped, everything falls into place. [Michael Ruse & E. O. Wilson, “The Evolution of Ethics,” Religion and the Natural Sciences: The Range of Engagement, , ed. J. E. Hutchingson, Orlando, Fl.:Harcourt and Brace, 1991.

. . . and Provine in his Darwin Day address at U. Tenn 1998:

Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent . . . . The first 4 implications are so obvious to modern naturalistic evolutionists that I will spend little time defending them. Human free will, however, is another matter. Even evolutionists have trouble swallowing that implication. I will argue that humans are locally determined systems that make choices. They have, however, no free will . . .

With Sir Francis Crick backing up in an inadvertent self-refutation:

. . . that “You”, your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. As Lewis Carroll’s Alice might have phrased: “You’re nothing but a pack of neurons.” [–> But Sir Francis, what does this imply about your own responsible freedom and ability to choose to think reasonably?] This hypothesis is so alien to the ideas of most people today that it can truly be called astonishing. [Cf. dramatisation of unintended potential consequences, here.]

So, it seems that if we are inclined to accept evolutionary materialist scientism and to reject God, we do end up in a want of foundation for morality. Which carries the onward implication of a general delusion and breakdown of the credibility of rational mindedness and responsible freedom.

Thus, reductio ad absurdum.

At least, that is how it looks from where I sit and type. Thoughts? (And if the thoughts are evolutionary materialistic, how do you ground credibility of mind and morals on such? For surely, blindly mechanical computation is not contemplation.) END

PS: I think it worth adding (Jan 29) a Koukl lecture:

[vimeo 9026899]

 

Comments
Graham, KF took up where I left off, mostly how I would liked to have said it. My answer would have been yes, we can infer a reality of a moral code that we can't see (you are imposing a physicalist/materialist test here where none should or could apply) by the testimony of the whole history of the human race (especially since that testimony matches exactly what we find in our own inner voice), just as we would believe the testimony of a great number of people to any other event. It is really only a problem for your kind when it comes to the testimony about miracles or, like now, morality. You are the dogmatist here. You said:
Of course we all agree its wrong to eat babies, but we are perfectly capable of feeling something is wrong all on our own. We don’t need god to tell us this. Why is this so difficult for you religious types to understand?
Some great equivocation lurking in there. Sure you can feel something is wrong all on your own, without God telling you. I absolutely agree. If, that is, you mean that you can feel something is wrong, all on your own, without God needing to spell it out for you in the sky. I absolutely disagree, however, if you mean that you can determine what is wrong without having an absolute standard to which you can refer in order to make your determination. Now, it seems clear that you agree with me and the rest of the human race that this code is within you. You cannot deny it (lest you'd have tried), so you say it is just a product of your environment with no relation to anything. But you'll not ever dare to live that way. This all starts to remind me of what Chesterton said about how atheists deal with sin. They don't deny sin, but they deny man. By the same standard you question how we can know this moral code, you question your own existence.Brent
January 30, 2015
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Box, you are so right, especially when the worldview has Stukas, Panzers and MG34s backing it. KFkairosfocus
January 30, 2015
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G2:
we all agree its wrong to eat babies, but we are perfectly capable of feeling something is wrong all on our own
Notice the substitution of a perception for the issue that that perception may be telling us something pivotal about the nature of the world in which we live? That switcheroo is key. You cannot deny that your conscience speaks, testifying to the value of that child (save, I suppose when it is out of sight inside its mother's womb . . . ) and moral duties to it. But, you are back at the ugly gulch between the world of perceptions and the world of realities. Including, of course, abstract realities (save, I suppose for numbers . . . ). But that voice was never the problem, its presence is undeniable. The issue is, does this major aspect of consciously aware mindedness speak truly or is it merely an illusion played by genes, memes and whatnot to induce us to be nice controllable sheeple for our would-be masters to manipulate. As in, might and manipulation make 'right.' If it is illusory, we are looking at general delusion and undermining the credibility of mind. Thence, straightaway self referential incoherence and irrationality in an infinite regress of Plato's Cave worlds. That looks a lot like a reductio to me, and I therefore turn from it. Instead, I start from the point that I have no more reason to believe conscience that tells me endangering a baby is wrong is misleading than to believe that the eyes, ears and touch that tell me the baby is there are delusional. That, I sit as a disembodied brain in a vat or the like. We are bound by OUGHT and live in a world where there is a foundational IS that grounds OUGHT. For that, after centuries of debate, there remains just one adequate, serious candidate: the inherently good Creator God, a necessary and maximally great being, the root of reality through whom we live, move and have our being. KFkairosfocus
January 30, 2015
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F/N 2: Let us again observe how that foundational premise and principle of mutual benevolence of neighbours appears in Locke in his 2nd essay on civil govt, Ch 2 as he grounds what would become modern liberty and democracy on effectively what lies in Paul's mini exposition on the Golden Rule and universality of key moral perceptions in Rom 2 & 13:
Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them . . . Rom 13:8 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong [--> or, harm] to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
. . . by citing "the judicious [anglican canon Richard] Hooker" in his Ecclesiastical Polity, 1594+ (a work, BTW, praised across the Reformation divide by the then pope):
. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man's hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [[Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [[Eccl. Polity,preface, Bk I, "ch." 8, p.80]
In short, on the premise of the imago dei and resulting quasi-infinite value and moral worth, one can ground our moral government and the general testimony of conscience to core morality and justice. With the state as a guardian of the civil peace of justice. Such, that:
Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness,[b] and to walk humbly with your God?
This allows us -- this is mainly for the onlooker as the objectors already informed us they won't be reading -- to turn the tables, on a worldviews foundation case: 1 --> As may be easily seen, worldviews must rest on finitely remote first plausibles, on the grounds that infinite regress and circularity are not acceptable. These will be start points for reasoning, best explanatory presuppositions that structure our worldviews on factual adequacy, coherence and explanatory power. 2 --> In this, one of our main things is the premise of moral government that comes out as soon as we see the consensus that fairness is binding. If you doubt, just watch quarrels, and listen to conscience. and listen to the ghost of that murdered child. 3 --> We notice that moral government by the golden rule rooted in the inherently good Creator-God, a necessary and maximally great being makes excellent sense of moral government and allows us to undergo personal and community reformation once we become humble and teachable in the face of evident reason, reality and truth. AKA, willing to admit that X is my neighbour, just as much a quasi-infinite value image bearer of God as I am. (Where also, there are ever so many good reasons otherwise to take the reality of God seriously. Start here for one way forward. Or, here if you want a more worldviews rooted base.) 4 --> In this frame, we expect conscience to be The Lord's candle within, to be trained and followed, not snuffed out. And justice then teaches us much and grounds much at personal and family etc levels. Light shines far and wide from a city set on a hill in a dark world. 5 --> In the other corner, we find that dismissing God and seeking enlightenment everywhere else runs into the IS-OUGHT gap and the looming menace, might and manipulation -- however prettified as institutional socialisation and whatnot -- make 'right.' 6 --> Linked, we see that general delusion is let loose in the mind as conscience's testimony that we are under moral government must be dismissed as Ruse's "illusion fobbed off on us by our genes to get us to cooperate." 7 --> So, on subjectivist- relativist views like this the credibility of the perceiving, reasoning, warranting, deciding, acting, knowing mind is undermined fatally in self-referential incoherence. 8 --> In short, purporting to be in enlightenment, we find ourselves instead in en-darkenment and confusion, prone to manipulation. Which, should ring a few warning bells in and of itself. 9 --> So the conclusion is obvious, the evident binding nature of ought and moral perceptions rooted in conscience, can be grounded on an ethical theism. Where, the rejection of such ends in evident self referential incoherence. ________________ On this alone, it would be reasonable to accept the premise of a world founded by an inherently good Creator God, a necessary and maximally great being, and to build life and community on that premise. Light dispels darkness. And, we are not left to this alone: http://nicenesystheol.blogspot.com/2010/11/unit-1-biblical-foundations-of-and-core.html#u1_grnds KFkairosfocus
January 30, 2015
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Brent: Morality has not changed. Understanding and beliefs about how morality applies, and to whom (for instance) has changed, but not a whit have they changed in substance. Treating the ‘negro’ as inferior, for instance, was a simple result of “believing” “facts” that were not facts, i.e., that they were actually inferior. It was thought that the morality normally extended to others (or that should be) didn’t apply to their case. It didn’t take a change in morality in any sense whatsoever to start to treat the black man equally, it only took admission that the black man was worthy of being so treated.
I fully agree with Brent. People share the same (objective) morality, it is our world views that differ. The distinction between morality and world view is repeatedly ignored by both sides in discussions like this. Injustice towards others doesn't stem from a different morality (e.g. 'I do not have to treat equals equally') it stems from a world view which informs the criminal that others are inferior.Box
January 30, 2015
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KF: You are terribly slow on the uptake. Of course we all agree its wrong to eat babies, but we are perfectly capable of feeling something is wrong all on our own. We don't need god to tell us this. Why is this so difficult for you religious types to understand ? I imagine there are a small number who disagree, but so what ? I bet you don't agree with me on the subject of gay marriage ... so who is right ? Jeez this is hard work. As for 'personal feelings' ... exactly. That's what they are, there just happens to near universal agreement on extreme cases (babies etc) but wide dissent on middling cases (gay marriage). Its a spectrum.Graham2
January 30, 2015
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F/N: It needs to be pointed out that moral obligation is instantly objectively founded once one acknowledges the reality of the inherently good Creator-God, a necessary and maximally great being. Such would be an IS fully capable of grounding OUGHT, and our values would be rooted in the quasi-infinite value we each hold as made in God's image and valued by him; leading to love your neighbour as yourself as moral yardstick no 1. Something that is of longstanding, even being embedded in key foundational political thought and state papers. More later. KFkairosfocus
January 30, 2015
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MT, Perhaps you care to elaborate, and to apply to the concrete cases of the kidnapping, sexual assault and murder of a young child, and the sense of justice that leads us to want to rescue and to set up courts of justice to deal with such crimes. Along the way, kindly address the mens rea principle used in addressing crime. Then, draw out the implications of general delusion entailed by the widespread perceptions of morally binding obligations; including for systems of justice and the powers and legitimacy of the state. Those are just a few of the matches you are playing with. KF PS: Onlookers a read here will help you know what MT alludes to: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/moral-anti-realism/moral-error-theory.html . . . and here is a rebuttal: http://www.ohadmaiman.com/displayessay.asp?PageNumber=20kairosfocus
January 30, 2015
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G2: In short you have no answer and dismiss on handy excuses. Let's make it concrete:
Would it be wrong to kidnap, bind, torture, sexually assault and asphyxiate a child on the way home from school?
If you were to come across such in progress, would you consider it a duty to try to rescue the victim, why or why not? KF PS: Onlookers, take particular note of a change from it would be wrong to personal feelings or perceptions or the like. PPS: One of the issues in dealing with many objectors is that a brief remark will predictably be twisted into pretzels and a slower more thorough discussion will be dismissed en bloc or face snip and snipe or go off on tangents.kairosfocus
January 30, 2015
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KF: I don't read your copy/paste exercises, but I think all you have to go on is that 'it is self evident'. That's it. Nothing more. And if you want people to read your stuff, try being concise. You have been told this many times, it just doesn't sink in.Graham2
January 30, 2015
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KF, Mackie's Argument from Relativity and Argument from Queerness disprove that morality is objective.Me_Think
January 30, 2015
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F/N: From that intro to phil course: _____________ >> Ethics is closely related to, but subtly distinct from, principles and morality. As David Clarke and Robert Rakestraw aptly observe[1]:
Principles are broad general guidelines that all persons ought to follow. Morality is the dimension of life related to right conduct. It includes virtuous character and honorable intentions as well as the decisions and actions that grow out of them. Ethics on the other hand, is the [philosophical and theological] study of morality . . . [that is,] a higher order discipline that examines moral living in all its facets . . . . on three levels. The first level, descriptive ethics, simply portrays moral actions or virtues. A second level, normative ethics (also called prescriptive ethics), examines the first level, evaluating actions or virtues as morally right or wrong. A third level, metaethics, analyses the second . . . It clarifies the meaning of ethical terms and assesses the principles of ethical argument . . . . Some think, without reflecting on it, that . . . what people actually do is the standard of what is morally right . . . [But, what] actually happens and what ought to happen are quite different . . . . A half century ago, defenders of positivism routinely argued that descriptive statements are meaningful, but prescriptive statements (including all moral claims) are meaningless . . . In other words, ethical claims give no information about the world; they only reveal something about the emotions of the speaker . . . . Yet ethical statements do seem to say something about the realities to which they point. “That’s unfair!” encourages us to attend to circumstances, events, actions, or relationships in the world. We look for a certain quality in the world (not just the speaker’s mind) that we could properly call unfair.
Thus, we see the focus of ethics as a philosophical discipline, and the major challenges to ethics over the past century: positivism deriving from the naturalist worldview, and relativism, deriving from the assumption that what is and what ought to be are effectively the same. Consequently, as Arthur Holmes points out[2], ethics has to address the is-ought gap:
However we may define the good, however well we may calculate consequences, to whatever extent we may or may not desire certain consequences, none of this of itself implies any obligation of command. That something is or will be does not imply that we ought to seek it. We can never derive an “ought” from a premised “is” unless the ought is somehow already contained in the premise . . . . R. M. Hare . . . raises the same point. Most theories, he argues, simply fail to account for the ought that commands us: subjectivism reduces imperatives to statements about subjective states, egoism and utilitarianism reduce them to statements about consequences, emotivism simply rejects them because they are not empirically verifiable, and determinism reduces them to causes rather than commands . . . . Elizabeth Anscombe’s point is well made. We have a problem introducing the ought into ethics unless, as she argues, we are morally obligated by law – not a socially imposed law, ultimately, but divine law . . . . This is precisely the problem with modern ethical theory in the West . . . it has lost the binding force of divine commandments.
The relevance of this comes out as soon as we consider the concept that we have rights:
If we admit that we all equally have the right to be treated as persons, then it follows that we have the duty to respect one another accordingly. Rights bring correlative duties: my rights . . . imply that you ought to respect these rights.[3]
But, why should we consider that people have rights at all? The only enduring answer to this has been aptly summarised in the US Declaration of Independence of 1776: “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed . . .” In short, the is-ought gap of ethics points to the question that rights and correlative duties arise from our being equally valuable as creatures of God. But such claims often do not sit well with modern or post-modern people, who wish to reject the moral argument to God. >> _____________ And, it seems there is the rub. For, clearly, objective morals do raise the issue that we are creatures under moral law, thence law-giver, our Creator. But if one is sufficiently determined to reject the reality of a Creator, one can then decide to reject that and reverse the implication to deny the objective, binding nature of morality at its core as a law written on our hearts to which our consciences routinely bear testimony. Thus, even at the price of burning down the credibility of the consciously aware, reasoning, responsibly deciding, warranting, knowing, acting mind. This is beginning to look uncommonly like what we are seeing. KFkairosfocus
January 30, 2015
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G2:
Your reasoning is that if lots of people have a similar outlook [perception regarding an external world or better yet abstract mathematical or logical objects and their relationships . . . ], then there must be an objective standard at work. Is that it ?
I trust the selective hyperskepticism is evident. We generally trust our senses regarding the external world and regarding logical or mathematical abstract objects even though we know we are fallible. In material part, we do this because to assume general delusion a la Plato's Cave, is to undermine the project of rationality and the credibility of mind, thus ending in an infinite regress of self referential incoherence. Let me again draw to your attention and that of your ilk, a 101 level discussion that for almost fully two days now, you all have studiously ignored:
We may now carry this forward, to briefly address the vexed problem of the fairly common attempt to reduce morality to subjective or otherwise relative perceptions imposed by persuasion or force. For this, it is perhaps best to start with a very concrete case, one which is unfortunately not just theoretical:
ASSERTION: it is self-evidently wrong, bad and evil to kidnap, torture, sexually violate and murder a young child. Likewise, by corollary: if we come across such a case in progress, it is our duty to try to intervene to save the child from such a monster.
Almost all people will agree that such a case is horrible, and to be deplored. So also, they will agree that a duty of rescue obtains, or at least succor for someone left half dead. Thus, we see the significance of the Good Samaritan as a paradigm of neighbourliness across racial, religious, political and other dividing-lines or even outright enmity . . . . Where, John Locke, in grounding modern liberty and what would become democratic self-government of a free people premised on upholding the civil peace of justice, in Ch 2 Sec. 5 of his second treatise on civil Government [c. 1690] cites "the judicious [Anglican canon, Richard] Hooker" from his classic Ecclesiastical Polity of 1594 on, as he explains how the principles of neighbour-love are inscribed in our hearts, becoming evident to the eye of common good sense and reasonableness:
. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man's hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8 and alluding to Justinian's synthesis of Roman Law in Corpus Juris Civilis that also brings these same thoughts to bear:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [Eccl. Polity,preface, Bk I, "ch." 8, p.80, cf. here. Emphasis added.]
But that general acknowledgement is not the same as to further acknowledge that the sort of wrong we are contemplating is bindingly, objectively, universally something that OUGHT not to be done. And indeed, many will boldly assert that it cannot be proved that it is absurd to reject the notion that core moral principles are objective and universally binding. So in the view of too many today, we are left to the feelings of revulsion and the community consensus backed up by police and courts on this. Not so. Compare a fish, that we lure to bite on a hook, then land, kill and eat for lunch without compunction. And even for those who object, they will do so by extension of the protective sense we have about say the young child -- not the other way around. But, unless there is a material difference between a young child and a fish, that sense of wrong is frankly delusional, it is just a disguised preference, one that we are simply willing to back up with force. So, already, once we let radical relativism and subjectivism loose, we are looking at the absurdity and chaos of the nihilist abyss, might (and manipulation) makes for 'right.' Oops. At the pivot of the skeptical objections to objective moral truth, notwithstanding persistent reduction to absurdity, is the pose that since we may err and since famously there are disagreements on morality, we can reduce moral feelings to subjective perceptions tastes and preferences, dismissing any and all claims of objectivity much less self evidence. So, the objector triumphantly announces: there is an unbridgeable IS-OUGHT gap, game over. Not so fast, as there is no better reason to imagine that we live in a moral Plato’s Cave world, than that we live in a physical or intellectual Plato’s Cave world. That is, we consider the imagined world of Plato where the denizens, having been imprisoned from childhood, all imagine that the shadow shows portrayed for their benefit are reality. Until, one is loosed, sees the apparatus of manipulation, then is led outside and learns of the reality that is there to be discovered. Then he tries to rescue his fellows, only to be ridiculed and attacked . . . . Now, the skeptical question is, do we live in such a delusional world (maybe in another form such as the brains in vats or the Matrix's pods . . . ), and can we reliably tell the difference? The best answer to such is, that such a scenario implies general delusion and the general un-trustworthiness of our senses and reasoning powers. So, it undercuts itself in a turtles all the way down chain of possible delusions -- an infinite regress of Plato's cave delusions. Common good sense then tells us that the skeptic has caught himself up in his own web, his argument is self referentially incoherent . . .
I trust the problem is evident. There is every good reason to generally as opposed to absolutely trust the deliverances of our conscious mindedness relative to moral perception, just as there is good reason to trust our perceptions relative to mathematical, logical or physical world perceptions. And the realities of Mathematics and logic forever demonstrate that the abstract is not to be equated to the subjective. I suspect, the root problem is, that disagreements exist. Sure, but in general that error exists is a testimony that there is somewhat out there to be in error about. Likewise, the typical relativist's assertion that we should be tolerant of the diverse views of others, which comes to a point of making "intolerance" a major accusation today, is itself a disguised claimed universally binding moral principle, that we OUGHT to be tolerant. Similarly, the understanding that we have a right to expect our rights to be respected, points in the same direction. And as WLC's animation shows, if one stumbles on a brick and drops a cell phone only to have it snatched, one does naturally perceive and respond with, this is unfair and unjust. There is utterly no good reason to dismiss that as caught up in an ugly gulch between an inner subjective world of perceptions and an outer world of things in themselves that we cannot access. For in fact as was pointed out long ago now by F H Bradley, that is a claim to know something about the external world, that it is unknowable. It is self referentially incoherent. So necessarily false and ex falso quodlibet. Though, yes, that caught out so eminent a person as Kant and many who followed him. I suggest that subjectivism is self referentially incoherent in many ways including morally. Further to this, I suggest that a priori evolutionary materialism, never mind its lab coats these days, is multiply self referentially incoherent and as it has in it no foundational IS capable of bearing he weight of OUGHT, it leads to the implication that might and manipulation make for 'right,' etc. In the face of the father of that murdered child, such is patently error. I point instead to an alternative, that there is a longstanding serious candidate who makes sense of morality: the inherently good Creator-God, a necessary and maximally great being. Actually, the only such serious candidate. KFkairosfocus
January 29, 2015
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I think I see. Your reasoning is that if lots of people have a similar outlook, then there must be an objective standard at work. Is that it ?Graham2
January 29, 2015
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Graham, can you point to any society or culture, either present or past, where it was admirable to be selfish? I mean, of course, within that culture. I've already said that people have differed in opinion about who this morality should be applied towards, or how far it should be extended. Nonetheless, every culture has had this idea of right conduct that pressed upon them to act a certain way. Are you not aware that many sages, teachers, gurus, etc. have written about this code through the centuries and that they are quite in agreement? If it is your contention that morality has changed, I only need to point out how it, in fact, has not.Brent
January 29, 2015
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Brent: what on earth are you talking about ? Is this related to my comment ?Graham2
January 29, 2015
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Graham2, Well, I admit I know nothing, unless the whole of human history as recorded through the centuries can be used as testimony. No. I have no scroll. But I do have hundreds of them, if not thousands and even hundreds of thousands. Your honor, I call every human in every human race to the stand. I present all the scrolls in history that concern the ideas of right and acceptable conduct. After that, who will you call, Graham? Sure, you and your pals, but then you can't even give consistent testimony. Case closed.Brent
January 29, 2015
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HL: no, your comment.Graham2
January 29, 2015
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G2 - Yes - that is Darwin's position as you know.Heartlander
January 29, 2015
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HL: pure casuistryGraham2
January 29, 2015
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How does anyone know anything?
“Nevertheless you have expressed my inward conviction, though far more vividly and clearly than I could have done, that the Universe is not the result of chance. But then with me the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?” – Charles Darwin
Heartlander
January 29, 2015
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Brent, Understanding ... has changed, but not a whit have they changed in substance Yes,yes,yes, but how do you know thay have not changed in substance ? How do you know ? What evidence do you have ? Is there a scroll somewhere where the 'substance' is written ? Of course there isn't. This is the simple point the heathens have been trying to drum into your head, over and over. How do you know ?.Graham2
January 29, 2015
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Zachriel (and others who point to "changing" morality), You are lacking in understanding. Morality has not changed. Understanding and beliefs about how morality applies, and to whom (for instance) has changed, but not a whit have they changed in substance. Treating the 'negro' as inferior, for instance, was a simple result of "believing" "facts" that were not facts, i.e., that they were actually inferior. It was thought that the morality normally extended to others (or that should be) didn't apply to their case. It didn't take a change in morality in any sense whatsoever to start to treat the black man equally, it only took admission that the black man was worthy of being so treated. You admit as much when you say that a Nazi would be considered moral for killing a Jew, since the Nazi thought him vermin. Now, in neither case did the Nazi or the white man have a valid excuse for their "belief", and that is why we can rightly condemn their actions today. Further, morality is quite consistent within different cultures; even Nazi culture. There aren't any cultures where it is thought good to be selfish and put yourself first. There might be an opinion that it only extends to the border of your family, say, or your hometown, or your party, country, or ethnicity, but the central theme is present and unbroken. The point remains, then, that morality didn't change. It is, in fact, the one constant.Brent
January 29, 2015
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DAWKINS: (snip)"…But yet we have this gathering together of genes into individual organisms. And that reminds me of the illusion of one mind, when actually there are lots of little mindlets in there, and the illusion of the soul of the white ant in the termite mound, where you have lots of little entities all pulling together to create an illusion of one. Am I right to think that the feeling that I have that I'm a single entity, who makes decisions, and loves and hates and has political views and things, that this is a kind of illusion that has come about because Darwinian selection found it expedient to create that illusion of unitariness rather than let us be a kind of society of mind?" PINKER: "It's a very interesting question. Yes, there is a sense in which the whole brain has interests in common in the way that say a whole body composed of genes with their own selfish motives has a single agenda. In the case of the genes the fact that their fates all depend on the survival of the body forces them to cooperate. In the case of the different parts of the brain, the fact that the brain ultimately controls a body that has to be in one place at one time may impose the need for some kind of circuit, presumably in the frontal lobes, that coordinates the different agendas of the different parts of the brain to ensure that the whole body goes in one direction. In How the Mind Works I alluded to a scene in the comedy movie All of Me in which Lily Tomlin's soul inhabits the left half of Steve Martin's body and he takes a few steps in one direction under his own control and then lurches in another direction with his pinkie extended while under the control of Lily Tomlin's spirit. That is what would happen if you had nothing but completely autonomous modules of the brain, each with its own goal. Since the body has to be in one place at one time, there might be a circuit that suppresses the conflicting motives…"(end snip)
Heartlander
January 29, 2015
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Joel Marks, Professor Emeritus of Philosophy at the U. of New Haven, who for 10 years authored the “Moral Moments” column in Philosophy Now, made the following statements in a 2010 article entitled, “An Amoral Manifesto.”
“This philosopher has been laboring under an unexamined assumption, namely that there is such a thing as right and wrong. I now believe there isn’t…The long and short of it is that I became convinced that atheism implies amorality; and since I am an atheist, I must therefore embrace amorality…I experienced my shocking epiphany that religious fundamentalists are correct; without God there is no morality. But they are incorrect, I still believe, about there being a God. Hence, I believe, there is no morality.
Marks then quite boldly and candidly addresses the implications of his newfound beliefs:
“Even though words like “sinful” and “evil” come naturally to the tongue as say a description of child molesting. They do not describe any actual properties of anything. There are no literal sins in the world because there is no literal God…nothing is literally right or wrong because there is no Morality…yet we human beings can still discover plenty of completely naturally explainable resources for motivating certain preferences. Thus enough of us are sufficiently averse to the molestation of children and would likely continue to be…( An Amoral Manifesto Part I )
Heartlander
January 29, 2015
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ForJah @108: we can’t determine which morals are and are not objective Exactly.Graham2
January 29, 2015
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Z @111 It’s amazing how people can find moral justification when it suits their needs. Yes - yes it is...Heartlander
January 29, 2015
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Heartlander: I said clothes – not clothing styles – clothes… and eating utensils (notice I didn’t say knife, fork, or chopstick) Which you said immediately after saying "fashion and etiquette", conflating style and utility. Heartlander: Also, there are different styles of slavery (home mortgage or government dependence) – and torture ‘etiquette’ or definitions differ… Excellent point. It's amazing how people can find moral justification when it suits their needs. Timmy: If a Nazi kills a Jew, then that is exactly the sort of self-interested “in-group/out-group” behavior you were talking about. It's not normally construed as self-interest if it helps the in-group, but doesn't help the individual. Timmy: Moral people routinely make choices in which they put other people’s self-interests ahead of their own, regardless of group status {which group they belong to}. That just means they have defined that person as part of the in-group. If you look at history, the in-group has grown from the family and tribe, to city-state, to ethnic and religious group, to nation, and tentatively, to humanity generally. However, there are still significant ethnic, religious, and national divisions today.Zachriel
January 29, 2015
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Z @106 I said clothes - not clothing styles - clothes... and eating utensils (notice I didn't say knife, fork, or chopstick)... Also, there are different styles of slavery (home mortgage or government dependence) - and torture 'etiquette' or definitions differ... However, while humans are very flexible in their behaviors, they do tend to form attachments to those to whom they are close. This results in an in-group out-group dynamic. That being said, you seem to like this in-group / out-group theory and yet here you are in a pro-ID forum - part of the out-group. You seem a slave to these discussions and I don't understand why you torture yourself.Heartlander
January 29, 2015
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Zachriel: If a Nazi kills a Jew, then that is exactly the sort of self-interested "in-group/out-group" behavior you were talking about. It's an excellent predictor for immoral people. Moral people routinely make choices in which they put other people's self-interests ahead of their own, regardless of group status. ForJah: Of course revealed morality hasn't changed, so a much better explanation for human immorality is that humans are morally imperfect.Timmy
January 29, 2015
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