Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

William Lane Craig’s video on the objectivity of morality and the linked reality of God

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Here:

[youtube OxiAikEk2vU]

In this video, Dr Craig argues that we have good reason to accept the objectivity of ought, and from that we see that there is a credible ground of such, God.

In slightly more details, if one rejects the objectivity of the general sense of OUGHT as governing our behaviour, we are implying a general delusion.

Where, as there are no firewalls in the mind . . . a general delusion undermines the general credibility of knowledge and rationality.

And in practice even those who most passionately argue for moral subjectivity live by the premise that moral principles such as fairness, justice, doing good by neighbour etc are binding. That is, there is no good reason to doubt that reality.

OUGHT, credibly, is real and binding.

But if OUGHT is real, it has to be grounded in a foundational IS in the cosmos.

After centuries of debate, there is still only one serious candidate, the inherently good Creator-God, a necessary and maximally great being.

Essentially, the being we find referred to in the US Declaration of Independence of 1776 (which also shows the positive, liberating historic impact of such a view):

When . . . it becomes necessary for one people . . . to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, [cf Rom 1:18 – 21, 2:14 – 15], that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. –That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security . . . .

(Readers may wish to see this discussion in context as well.)

By way of contrast, on the evolutionary materialist perspective, we may for instance see Dawkins, in  as reproduced in “God’s Utility Function” in Sci Am in 1995:

Nature is not cruel, only pitilessly indifferent. This lesson is one of the hardest for humans to learn. We cannot accept that things might be neither good nor evil, neither cruel nor kind, but simply callous: indifferent to all suffering, lacking all purpose . . . . In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won’t find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but pitiless indifference . . . . DNA neither cares nor knows. DNA just is. And we dance to its music. [[ “God’s Utility Function,” Sci. Am. Aug 1995, pp. 80 – 85.]

. . . or (adding overnight), Michael Ruse & E. O. Wilson in the 1991 form of the essay, “The Evolution of Ethics”

The time has come to take seriously the fact [[–> This is a gross error at the outset, as macro-evolution is a theory (an explanation) about the unobserved past of origins and so cannot be a fact on the level of the observed roundness of the earth or the orbiting of planets around the sun etc.] that we humans are modified monkeys, not the favored Creation of a Benevolent God on the Sixth Day . . . We must think again especially about our so-called ‘ethical principles.’ The question is not whether biology—specifically, our evolution—is connected with ethics, but how. As evolutionists, we see that no justification of the traditional kind is possible. Morality, or more strictly our belief in morality, is merely an adaptation put in place to further our reproductive ends. Hence the basis of ethics does not lie in God’s will  … In an important sense, ethics as we understand it is an illusion fobbed off on us by our genes to get us to cooperate. It is without external groundingEthics is illusory inasmuch as it persuades us that it has an objective reference. This is the crux of the biological position. [= evolutionary materialist philosophical premise, duly dressed up in a lab coat . . . ] Once it is grasped, everything falls into place. [Michael Ruse & E. O. Wilson, “The Evolution of Ethics,” Religion and the Natural Sciences: The Range of Engagement, , ed. J. E. Hutchingson, Orlando, Fl.:Harcourt and Brace, 1991.

. . . and Provine in his Darwin Day address at U. Tenn 1998:

Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent . . . . The first 4 implications are so obvious to modern naturalistic evolutionists that I will spend little time defending them. Human free will, however, is another matter. Even evolutionists have trouble swallowing that implication. I will argue that humans are locally determined systems that make choices. They have, however, no free will . . .

With Sir Francis Crick backing up in an inadvertent self-refutation:

. . . that “You”, your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. As Lewis Carroll’s Alice might have phrased: “You’re nothing but a pack of neurons.” [–> But Sir Francis, what does this imply about your own responsible freedom and ability to choose to think reasonably?] This hypothesis is so alien to the ideas of most people today that it can truly be called astonishing. [Cf. dramatisation of unintended potential consequences, here.]

So, it seems that if we are inclined to accept evolutionary materialist scientism and to reject God, we do end up in a want of foundation for morality. Which carries the onward implication of a general delusion and breakdown of the credibility of rational mindedness and responsible freedom.

Thus, reductio ad absurdum.

At least, that is how it looks from where I sit and type. Thoughts? (And if the thoughts are evolutionary materialistic, how do you ground credibility of mind and morals on such? For surely, blindly mechanical computation is not contemplation.) END

PS: I think it worth adding (Jan 29) a Koukl lecture:

[vimeo 9026899]

 

Comments
KF: You cant justify what you are saying, can you ? Except to carry on about how bitter and twisted any dissenter must be. Why not just wheel on BA, he does the indignant better than you. But with a similar lack of evidence, just, Im right, and if you don't agree, well you are out of luck.Graham2
January 29, 2015
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DDD, Nope, on several levels. Do, let me expand a bit. Pardon now necessary length, as opposed to mere links (which suffer the defect that too often they are brushed aside). It is impossible for 2 + 3 = 5 to fail in any possible world, and the diagonal of a square must be as sqrt 2 to the sides. And, much, much, much more. Those are foundationally embedded in reality and constrain our world in ways that led Wigner to famously exclaim on the astonishing effectiveness of mathematics in the physical sciences. That is, you are reversing reality, denying the consequent to dismiss the antecedent: P => Q, so assert ~Q to conclude ~ P. But that, too is another case of the power of abstract logical reality to constrain: logic and the force of that very abstract thing, implication. Second, if you want empirical evidence of the objectivity of moral principles, you have the record of sound history; paid for in blood and tears. Those who refuse to learn those hard-bought lessons will be forced to pay the same price again. As our civilisation seems again determined to pay. But then, I am one whose very name has a thousand years of hard-bought history written into it. A name that is, bought with my family's martyr's blood, literally written over the door-way of the Parliament of my homeland. That gives me a bit of a different perspective, I suppose. As to dismissive words on "narratives" in scripture etc, you are waving away eyewitness lifetime primary source documents and a lot of linked analysis, starting with the minimal facts issue. You would do well to ponder such rather than propose a selectively hyperskeptical dismissal that reminds me of the classic essay on the fabrication of the existence of Napoleon. This is not a blog on theology and the like, which is often little more than distractive, but that much can be noted and you can again be directed here on. The IS-OUGHT gap issue is important, but not in the way you have been led to see. Let me clip from an already linked discussion:
. . . many will boldly assert that it cannot be proved that it is absurd to reject the notion that core moral principles are objective and universally binding. So in the view of too many today, we are left to the feelings of revulsion and the community consensus backed up by police and courts on this. Not so. Compare a fish, that we lure to bite on a hook, then land, kill and eat for lunch without compunction. And even for those who object, they will do so by extension of the protective sense we have about say the young child -- not the other way around. But, unless there is a material difference between a young child and a fish, that sense of wrong is frankly delusional, it is just a disguised preference, one that we are simply willing to back up with force. So, already, once we let radical relativism and subjectivism loose, we are looking at the absurdity and chaos of the nihilist abyss, might (and manipulation) makes for 'right.' Oops. At the pivot of the skeptical objections to objective moral truth, notwithstanding persistent reduction to absurdity, is the pose that since we may err and since famously there are disagreements on morality, we can reduce moral feelings to subjective perceptions tastes and preferences, dismissing any and all claims of objectivity much less self evidence. So, the objector triumphantly announces: there is an unbridgeable IS-OUGHT gap, game over. Not so fast, as there is no better reason to imagine that we live in a moral Plato’s Cave world, than that we live in a physical or intellectual Plato’s Cave world. That is, we consider the imagined world of Plato where the denizens, having been imprisoned from childhood, all imagine that the shadow shows portrayed for their benefit are reality. Until, one is loosed, sees the apparatus of manipulation, then is led outside and learns of the reality that is there to be discovered. Then he tries to rescue his fellows, only to be ridiculed and attacked . . . . Now, the skeptical question is, do we live in such a delusional world (maybe in another form such as the brains in vats or the Matrix's pods . . . ), and can we reliably tell the difference? The best answer to such is, that such a scenario implies general delusion and the general un-trustworthiness of our senses and reasoning powers. So, it undercuts itself in a turtles all the way down chain of possible delusions -- an infinite regress of Plato's cave delusions. Common good sense then tells us that the skeptic has caught himself up in his own web, his argument is self referentially incoherent . . . . The onward cascade of doubts and/or delusional worlds, though implicit, is painfully patent. This participant is neither confident of the external nor the internal worlds, and ends up in an arbitrary and confessedly blind faith that something is "out there" and "in here" nonetheless. Which boils down to, s/he cannot live consistent with his or her view. So also, the proper stance in response to such is that this sort of appeal to general doubt or general delusion about major aspects of reality and the mind reduces to absurdity. In response, we should hold that it is senseless to assume or imply the general dubiousness or delusion of any major faculty of mind, precisely because of that absurd result. Including, of course, conscience as that candle of the Lord within, shining a sometimes painful light into some very dark corners of our thoughts, words and deeds. Instead, until and unless we can find evidence of specific error, we will confidently hold to what seems to be reliable, common sense reality; beginning with the bench-mark truths that are self-evident and foundational (e.g. first truths and first principles of right reason . . . ), which we will use as plumb-lines to test the systems of thought we hold. Yes, as finite, fallible, intellectually and morally struggling creatures, we must live by faith, but there is no reason why such faith should be blind, hopeless and/or absurdly irrational. Thus, we proceed on common good sense and solid first principles, until and unless we see specific good evidence and reason to acknowledge and turn from specific error. Which, we pledge to promptly do, out of our sense of a duty of care to seek and follow the truth through good reasoning on credible evidence. H'mm -- isn't that an OUGHT? Yes it is. No surprise. And, a big hint on the nature of the underlying foundational IS that grounds OUGHT. [--> that is, in the end OUGHT can only be grounded at world-foundational level. And the only serious candidate . . . after centuries of contentious debates . . . is still the inherently good Creator-God, a necessary and maximally great being.] So also, we see the absurdities implied by attempted denial of moral reality through reducing it to mere [potentially] delusional subjective perceptions. Even the much prized or even vaunted rationality is in the stakes! For, if our minds are that delusional on so important a matter, we have decisively undercut the mind, period. Which should be patent, once we give it a moment’s thought in light of our experience and understanding of the world we live in. It is reasonable to hold and accept instead that: just as we have minds that allow us to make sense of the signals of our external world accessed through seeing and hearing, forming a coherent picture of the world, we have a generally [as opposed to absolutely] trustworthy sense -- conscience -- that is detecting and responding to duty in light of the value of those we interact with . . .
Locke in the intro to his essay on human understanding, section 5, summed up the dilemma of the linked hyperskepticism aptly:
Men have reason to be well satisfied with what God hath thought fit for them, since he hath given them (as St. Peter says [NB: i.e. 2 Pet 1:2 - 4]) pana pros zoen kaieusebeian, whatsoever is necessary for the conveniences of life and information of virtue; and has put within the reach of their discovery, the comfortable provision for this life, and the way that leads to a better. How short soever their knowledge may come of an universal or perfect comprehension of whatsoever is, it yet secures their great concernments [Prov 1: 1 - 7], that they have light enough to lead them to the knowledge of their Maker, and the sight of their own duties [cf Rom 1 - 2 & 13, Ac 17, Jn 3:19 - 21, Eph 4:17 - 24, Isaiah 5:18 & 20 - 21, Jer. 2:13, Titus 2:11 - 14 etc, etc]. Men may find matter sufficient to busy their heads, and employ their hands with variety, delight, and satisfaction, if they will not boldly quarrel with their own constitution, and throw away the blessings their hands are filled with, because they are not big enough to grasp everything . . . [.] It will be no excuse to an idle and untoward servant [Matt 24:42 - 51], who would not attend his business by candle light, to plead that he had not broad sunshine. The Candle that is set up in us [Prov 20:27] shines bright enough for all our purposes . . . [.] If we will disbelieve everything, because we cannot certainly know all things, we shall do muchwhat as wisely as he who would not use his legs, but sit still and perish, because he had no wings to fly. [Text references added to document the sources of Locke's allusions and citations. Paragraphing added.]
Such hyperskepticism reduces to absurdity in many ways. It should be abandoned. KF PS: I have added in the OP a clip from Ruse and Wilson that underscores just how worldview embedded the debates are. Consequently, we properly should examine the phil side and the linked issues on science in society. When Scientists, science educators and those influenced by them seek power or influence and/or large pools of taxpayer derived funding, they must face such scrutiny.kairosfocus
January 29, 2015
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Math does not constrain reality but is a byproduct of it. You've started with an obvious mistake, and there is still no bridge of that "similarity with regard to abstraction" between math and morals. Dreams are also abstract, should we grant them similar privilege? >> "We have no more reason to dismiss the insights we call conscience than those of mathematics". I think is is patently wrong, for within mathematics there exist mechanisms to explore and discuss outcomes (it is after all an axiomatic system). Math is an "is", Morals is an "ought". Clearly very different types of things which leads me to believe you've over-reached with your extrapolation. We would perhaps like morals to be like math, but we are all choosing our own, even if we believe one set or another are divinely inspired we cannot agree around the edges - not a hallmark of an objective function. You can't cite the bible's narrative as proof of its truth, "prophesied, fulfilled resurrection from the dead, with 500+ witnesses." - It is unsupported elsewhere and could be fabricated whole cloth. Moreover, where the bible intersects with natural and human history it is sadly wanting: Genesis get it all wrong and the story of Christ's birth is contradicted internally within the gospels and unsupported in any contemporary texts as well is being logistically implausible. As a side note, this place used to have a more scientific tone:"Creationism in a cheap tuxedo" was the throwaway jibe. Let's not give ammunition to the other side?DesignDetectiveDave
January 29, 2015
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G2: It is objectively true that it is wrong and even wicked to kidnap, bind and gag, torture, sexually assault and murder a young child. If one is blind to that, it is an index of warped perceptions, not a serious challenge to such an unfortunately real world point. And, if adherence to evolutionary materialism leads one into such moral blindness then that at once is a case of patent reductio ad absurdum. But then, we live in a day where ever so many refuse to acknowledge the reality of the ground they stand on in moral terms. And, mental-rational terms, too. Please, think again. KF PS: Onlookers, cf here on.kairosfocus
January 29, 2015
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DDD: In fact, the objective reality of mathematical -- abstract -- objects is pivotal. They constrain many causal relations in the observed, consciously experienced physical world. And in fact we can see and show that things like the natural numbers and their inter-relationships such as 2 + 3 = 5 cannot not exist in any possible world. As a simple illustration, contemplate -- and notice you are using the properties of your mind to contemplate and reason seeing things that are albeit abstract and what follows on such -- the set that collects nothing, and assign it a symbol denoting its cardinality (and representing it): {} --> 0 Next, contemplate the set that collects 0: {0} --> 1 After this, the set: {0, 1} --> 2 And so forth. Back in my days as a student (I can in my mind's eye still contemplate the classroom on Crumpton Street with its amazing thick coral limestone walls and astonishingly awful chairs and stools . . . I was tempted to think they may have been designed to be just a tad less than comfortable to force attention via mortification), I would contemplate the abstract space that can be represented through a space based on the number line and its orthogonal lines x, y, z (most easily through the ijk vector system based on roots of unity). Or even before that we can abstract from the common appearance of local space. Then we can contemplate spatial objects, triangles, circles, polygons, lines, points etc and what follows from such. We can find in this way any number of objective abstract truths that directly constrain what obtains in the physical world. The world of mathematics beckons. So also, we can perceive that to be abstract and accessible to rational contemplation and insight is not to be an utterly subjective figment of imagination. That cuts clean across what our culture, especially many wearing lab coats as a badge of prestige, are inclined to tell, suggest or imply. In short, we see a worldview gap relative to the existence of abstract realities. And, bonus, the astonishing effectiveness of mathematics is a cornerstone of the success of science. So the above cannot simply be dismissed without raising serious questions on the imposition of ideology on reasonable contemplation and discussion of reality. (Which last is a good initial definition of Philosophy, from which the vaunted sciences arose. If you find that seeming implausible, think of what, say, a natural philosopher was and why Newton's great work bore the title, Mathematical principles of natural philosophy.) We are of course now pondering things and implications that open up many other things that the dominant and too often domineering evolutionary materialist elites would not have us contemplate. Just as across yesterday we saw rhetorical stunts meant to distract from the issue that a priori evolutionary materialism faces a reductio challenge, thence the onward implication of dangerous unreliability: ex falso quodlibet. Where, the nature of the scheme -- look back at the OP and the statements of major advocates, is that it undermines credibility of the rational, contemplative mind in general, and implies a grand general delusion on morals. Indeed, after this I am going to add in something from Ruse et al. But our moral intuitions are themselves cases of rational contemplation driven by our sense of the inherent value and dignity of the human being. First, ourselves, then by direct extension those who are as ourselves. To the point where we properly deem someone blind to such abnormal, a sociopath with a deadened, benumbed or warped conscience. That is, we see here that principles such as neighbour love and mutually reciprocal duties of respect and care trace to foundational, hard to dismiss insights. And that those who fail or refuse to see or become blind to such are every inch analogous to the physically blind or those who seem constitutionally unable to perceive and understand mathematical entities. Next, you have a problem with foundational start-points. But a moment's reflection will show that if we accept some claim A, it is because some evidence or prior claim etc B leads to it. But B then requires C etc. We face three options, infinite regress, circularity or finitely remote first plausibles constituting our faith-point. We cannot traverse an infinite regress stepwise to arrive at A so that can be set aside. Besides, as fallible, we would inevitably blunder along the path. Question-begging circularity is an issue, which leads to the principle of comparative difficulties across factual adequacy, coherence and balanced explanatory power (elegantly simple but not simplistic nor an ever-growing ad hoc patchwork), thence the foundational level of one's worldview. One's faith-point. And yes, we ALL live by faith, the issue is in what or who, why, and with what degree of reasonableness. Hence BTW, a title of one of Craig's books, Reasonable Faith. Coming back, to dismiss morality as only subjective entails general delusion, undermining the credibility of mind as there are no firewalls. We have no more reason to dismiss the insights we call conscience than those of mathematics or the general deliverances of the senses that allow us to contemplate the external physical world so influenced and constrained by such evident principles. And, we have the whole province of history to teach us on the march of folly and its consequences. Lessons bought with blood and tears that if soundly summed up and learned, will draw out the empirical reality of those principles. For one instance, when my parents were young, there was a nation that saw itself as evolutionarily superior and needing living space at the expense of those who in its leaders' eyes were as mice before a pitiless cat. And those are the literal terms from a book written fifteen years before events played out. We have no good reason to dismiss the objectivity of morality, no more than that of gravity when it warns us that jumping off 50 storey buildings has consequences. As I have repeatedly highlighted, the only serious candidate grounds for such . . . after centuries of debate . . . is the inherently good Creator-God, a necessary and maximally great being. As for scripture, the validation pivots on a prophesied, fulfilled resurrection from the dead, with 500+ witnesses. That, per Ac 17, is the only offer of proof or warrant presented. But, we also find there the pivotal double-principle that founds morality and makes sense of precepts such as we may see in the Decalogue:
Matt 22:34 But when the Pharisees heard that he [Jesus] had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35 And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.” [ESV]
And, in the aftermath of the Glorious Revolution of 1688, in seeking to ground what would become modern liberty and democracy (now in decay around us through demagoguery, manipulation and growing mob rule), Locke in his 2nd essay on civil gov't would cite "the judicious [anglican canon Richard] Hooker" from Ecclesiastical Polity of 1594+:
. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man's hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [[Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [[Eccl. Polity,preface, Bk I, "ch." 8, p.80]
So, there is much for us to contemplate. KF PS: You may find here on helpful, on worldview foundations. PPS: DDD, the context of your half-cite from 2 Cor 10:
2 Cor 10:3 For though we walk (live) in the flesh, we are not carrying on our warfare according to the flesh and using mere human weapons. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not physical [weapons of flesh and blood], but they are mighty before God for the overthrow and destruction of strongholds, 5 [Inasmuch as we] refute arguments and theories and reasonings and every proud and lofty thing that sets itself up against the [true] knowledge of God; and we lead every thought and purpose away captive into the obedience of Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One) . . . [AMP]
That is, the context is refutation of fallacious arguments and intellectual strongholds erected that block people from seeing and acknowledging the reality of God. All in a context where the one and the same Logos is literally Communicative Reason Himself. Or as Schaeffer was fond of saying, He is there and is not silent.kairosfocus
January 29, 2015
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An interesting thought, Andre but then we have: "Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ" and "Can you send out lightning bolts, and they go? Do they report to you: "Here we are"?" "If science proves some belief of Buddhism wrong, then Buddhism will have to change. In my view, science and Buddhism share a search for the truth and for understanding reality. By learning from science about aspects of reality where its understanding may be more advanced, I believe that Buddhism enriches its own worldview." My point is we can cherry pick from any of holy books.DesignDetectiveDave
January 28, 2015
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DDD & Forjah How about the standard that encourages you to test it? You see the one thing that makes biblical scripture stand out above all other religious texts is this; "Test everything, hold onto the good." Don't know about you guys but I take comfort in the fact that those texts want us to test it's truth claims as opposed to just believing it blindly. Test everything is being a real sceptic.Andre
January 28, 2015
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The video is the same old nonsense. Most of it is internally consistent, in that if we really did have an objective moral standard, it would need god, or something similar. But does an objective moral standard exist ? I would have thought it bleeding obvious that there is no such standard.Graham2
January 28, 2015
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I don't see how a person, other than myself, who tells me what is good and bad somehow makes those morals objective. That's subjective, It's subject to what God deems right. I don't see why 3 can be used at all, since Objective moral values are defined independent or what any one individual might think AND of consensus. So I will have to side with DDD and ask...how do we detect objective morals enough to the fact that we can say there ARE objective morals?ForJah
January 28, 2015
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I'm not seeing it, Silver Asiatic. I'm looking for tools to help me find objective truth. Also "the external authority of the lawgiver" is clearly subjective - a choice made by an entity. If they are objective then they transcend entities and you don't need a God to see them? Lots of scriptures claim to be the truth. How do I pick the objectively true one?DesignDetectiveDave
January 28, 2015
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DDD
What are your views on “1. A body of moral laws or codes collected and taught to a population from a recognized authoritative source (often from a religious/spiritual revelation/prophecy/insight). The Ten Commandments are an example.” – How would we know that to be objective?
In the simplest sense, we know it's objective because its source is not-subjective. It's objective because it is external to the person. Anyone can access it and evaluate it. Beyond that, it was given as a revelation from God - not even as Moses' personal ideas. So it is objective in that sense. Objective morality accepts the moral code for the external authority of the lawgiver and not for the authority of the individual. With subjectivism, the individual either creates or chooses moral codes on his own authority and preference. The subjectivist does not acknowledge a higher or external source for moral law than himself.Silver Asiatic
January 28, 2015
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DDD
Can you please expand on “a recognized authoritative source” – How do we know this? I’m having trouble not ascribing 2 and 3 to “consensus” and “personal preference”, which are relative.
First of all, a code that is accessible external to the individual - that can be referenced objectively, cannot be a 'personal preference'. Secondly, when a moral code is given by an authoritative source, it's not a question of consensus. The moral code is fixed by the authority - whereas consensus fluctuates. The natural moral law is objective in that it guides the conscience and points to universal norms. But this is the weakest form of moral law since, although it is objective (referenced external to the individual) it offers only the most generalized norms and is less precise and less easy to access or evaluate than are objective moral codes given or established by teachers (philosophical or religious).Silver Asiatic
January 28, 2015
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We may put this in another way. Each man is at every moment subjected to several different sets of law but there is only one of these which he is free to disobey. As a body, he is subjected to gravitation and cannot disobey it; if you leave him unsupported in mid-air, he has no more choice about falling than a stone has. As an organism, he is subjected to various biological laws which he cannot disobey any more than an animal can. That is, he cannot disobey those laws which he shares with other things; but the law which is peculiar to his human nature, the law he does not share with animals or vegetables or inorganic things, is the one he can disobey if he chooses. This law was called the Law of Nature because people thought that every one knew it by nature and did not need to be taught it. They did not mean, of course, that you might not find an odd individual here and there who did not know it, just as you find a few people who are colour-blind or have no ear for a tune. But taking the race as a whole, they thought that the human idea of decent behaviour was obvious to every one. And I believe they were right. If they were not, then all the things we said about the war were nonsense. What was the sense in saying the enemy were in the wrong unless Right is a real thing which the Nazis at bottom knew as well as we did and ought to have practised? If they had had no notion of what we mean by right, then, though we might still have had to fight them, we could no more have blamed them for that than for the colour of their hair. The Law of Human Nature - C.S. Lewis (Mere Christianity)
Heartlander
January 28, 2015
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Math is an axiomatic system. Again a very different category from morality. I'm still interested in "What are your views on “1. A body of moral laws or codes collected and taught to a population from a recognized authoritative source (often from a religious/spiritual revelation/prophecy/insight). The Ten Commandments are an example.” – How would we know that to be objective?"DesignDetectiveDave
January 28, 2015
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DDD, is the number 2 (not merely the glyph we use as a numeral for it) objective? The propositional truth expressed in 2 + 3 = 5? The falsehood in 2 + 3 = 4? Pardon, I am trying to grasp what you are seeing. KFkairosfocus
January 28, 2015
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Do dogs have a sense of right and wrong? Cats don't, that's for sure. Cats and dogs have a sense of love, that's for sure too.ppolish
January 28, 2015
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Hi Kairos, I understand that I sense things and interpret them and through common language and reasoning am fairly sure these things are real. But objects are a different category and class to morals and values. What are your views on "1. A body of moral laws or codes collected and taught to a population from a recognized authoritative source (often from a religious/spiritual revelation/prophecy/insight). The Ten Commandments are an example." - How would we know that to be objective?DesignDetectiveDave
January 28, 2015
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BB, understood. KFkairosfocus
January 28, 2015
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Brent, no-one has called HR delusional. What has been called under question is the evolutionary materialist frame of thought on morality, responsible freedom and responsible rationality; on grounds of implied reductio. To show that such a frame is reasonable, adherents need to show why those challenges fail; challenges that BTW go back on record as far as Plato in The Laws Bk X. Note, in the OP leading spokesmen for evolutionary materialism and scientism were cited on the matter. KFkairosfocus
January 28, 2015
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KF @ 21 Please accept my apology. You didn't dismiss anyone and neither should I. However, one is entirely justified if he were to dismiss the untenable position of subjectivism. We can divorce the person from the philosophy because subjectivists very rarely live as if their philosophy were true.bb
January 28, 2015
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DDD, do you have difficulty accepting the testimony of your five senses and consciousness -- imperfect as they are and with the diversity that happens (e.g. on seeing the redness of an apple) -- as pointing to an objective world? What do you understand by, objectivity? KFkairosfocus
January 28, 2015
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Hi Silver Asiatic. Can you please expand on "a recognized authoritative source" - How do we know this? I'm having trouble not ascribing 2 and 3 to "consensus" and "personal preference", which are relative.DesignDetectiveDave
January 28, 2015
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DesignDetectiveDave Objective morality has different sources: 1. A body of moral laws or codes collected and taught to a population from a recognized authoritative source (often from a religious/spiritual revelation/prophecy/insight). The Ten Commandments are an example. 2. As above, a system of moral codes developed by a recognized authoritative group based on shared philosophical or social principles. Stoicism, Epicureanism, Taoism. 3. The internal recognition that personal conscience references universal/binding moral codes that are external to the person. In the first two cases, moral values reference stated, objective, accessible moral systems or codifcations. "To worship God is a moral requirement". That objective value can be found in the Ten Commandments - external to the person, with the authority (for those who accept it) of a prophet receiving revelation from God, the moral lawgiver. The third case which relies only on reason and conscience is more difficult to recognize as an objective value. The most general norms can be found to be universal in humanity: "It is immoral to torture people for pleasure". The human conscience points to something external to the person - something objective. A person who commits a crime and gets away with it - but still feels guilt and wants to repay somehow, has a conscience referencing an external moral standard. There's a sense of justice that is 'calling' the person and causing guilt.Silver Asiatic
January 28, 2015
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How do we know if a Moral value is objective or not? Do we have a reliable mechanism?DesignDetectiveDave
January 28, 2015
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I used to believe WLC had some good points here until I realized the idea that there are objective moral values is unsubstantiated. Keeping in mind that objective moral values are values that are true independent of whether we believe so or not. Therefor, it's impossible for humans to come to know whether there are or are not objective moral values. Which means that all current values are subjective to the human experience and not a product of an innate sense of morality.ForJah
January 28, 2015
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KF, hrun0815 said:
So, you are playing the same stupid ‘steers and queers’ plow so adeptly used by WJM when he asserted that all subjectivists are either delusional or sociopaths. You are dismissing people who disagree with you as either deluded about how they supposedly ground their thoughts or as not having the ability to consider any question in the first place.
And then:
I realize that there are ‘issues on the table’ as you say. But that does not mean that a person who is delusional and unable to contemplate can add anything to maybe shed light on said issue. That’s exactly what it means to dismiss all the people you disagree with offhand prior to the begin of a conversation.
He (I assume "he" anyway) is throwing a fit because he thinks he will be dismissed off hand because (perhaps) someone said he was delusional (I don't know if someone actually said that or not, but . . .). I'm trying to point out that if someone said he was delusional, it was not an emotional way of just trying to dismiss him, but rather a calculated conclusion based on solid reasoning. He has no reason to think he will be dismissed "off hand". He will be dismissed if he holds to his current position, but with reason and argument. My contention is: 1. No one really denies morality (a code to which we are bound to adhere). 2. Anyone who denies it (in word) does so because they don't understand it. They need to study. 3. Those who deny an objective standard (in word) in morality deny it for the undesired implications. They aren't comfortable saying no sort of morality exists, but simply say it isn't an objective standard or code. a) Those who deny objectivity (again, in word) really deny morality, even as they are trying not to do so, because they have no way to attempt to ground it and make it binding other than in man. But since morality is supposed to be that which governs man, man cannot be the source for morality; man would then in actuality be governing morality, which isn't morality in any sense. 4. In actuality, everyone believes in an objective morality. a) Getting some to see it and admit it is a monumental task ;)Brent
January 28, 2015
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Brent, care to elaborate? KFkairosfocus
January 28, 2015
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BB, pardon, I have actually dismissed no-one. If there is a serious response it is something that one can work with, even if unsuccessful. What is telling is the apparent unwillingness to address the matter. KFkairosfocus
January 28, 2015
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hrun0815, You're going to get no sympathy from me. You are being a complete jerk. You are trying to play the sad, sad victim. I'll have none of it, thanks! You are twisting what the actual point is. Perhaps (perhaps) someone has called you delusional for not accepting that your idea of morality needs grounding in a final, non-negotiable, standard. If someone has, WHAT OF IT? Firstly, do you accept that the idea of what we are talking about when we say "morality" is the idea of something that governs our actions? If you say no, well, we are just never going to agree, but then you're going to be made to face the fact that you indeed do not have any claim to morality, as the meaning of it has always been just that: what governs our behavior, judging it acceptable or not. Assuming you agree to the idea that morality is that which governs our behavior, you have a problem if you say that society, groups of people, is the source of morality. If morality's source is people, then people obviously govern morality, and morality does not govern people. If morality can change because the desires of people change, then morality is molded by our desires, and it doesn't mold us. I.E., this morality is not morality. If you have any one thing that you can never agree to being morally acceptable, whether any other person on the planet agreed with you or not, you have no choice but to believe in an objective standard from which to make that judgment. If you say there is no such thing that is objectively wrong, but only in your opinion wrong, then you reject morality because, then, you again have nothing that governs man, which is what has always been meant by saying morality. Now, when this comes up between atheists and theists, there is a big misunderstanding, and it is, I believe, at the root of your frustration. I've come up with an analogy to help clarify the misunderstanding. __________ Three men walking: One man walks up to me, and I ask him to jump. He does. A second man walks up to me, but different from the first, as he is walking in the air. I ask him, also, to jump. He tries, but cannot, because he is not grounded. A third man walks up to me, but different from either of the first two, as he is walking on the ground, but doesn't believe in the ground. He believes the ground does not exist. I ask him to jump too. He does. __________ Now, when the theist says you don't have morality, like I'm saying, you think we are claiming you are the second guy. But you want to say, "No! You idiot! I can jump just fine." And you can. But we are not saying you are the second guy at all. Rather, we are saying you are the third guy. You have, in actuality and practicality, the correct moral standards from which you CAN jump, and you KNOW you have them. But the problem remains, and it really is a problem that is delusional. You have the ground, you use the ground, you run and jump and play all day long. But you deny that which is right under your feet even as you are doing it.Brent
January 28, 2015
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hrun @ 5 "So, you are playing the same stupid ‘steers and queers’ plow so adeptly used by WJM when he asserted that all subjectivists are either delusional or sociopaths." If the shoe fits. "You are dismissing people who disagree with you as either deluded about how they supposedly ground their thoughts or as not having the ability to consider any question in the first place." He isn't dismissing all that disagree. He's justifiably dismissing subjectivists/materialists. The fact is they can ground their thought in logic, just not their philosophy/belief system which undermines logic and thought itself.bb
January 28, 2015
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