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William Lane Craig’s video on the objectivity of morality and the linked reality of God

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Here:

[youtube OxiAikEk2vU]

In this video, Dr Craig argues that we have good reason to accept the objectivity of ought, and from that we see that there is a credible ground of such, God.

In slightly more details, if one rejects the objectivity of the general sense of OUGHT as governing our behaviour, we are implying a general delusion.

Where, as there are no firewalls in the mind . . . a general delusion undermines the general credibility of knowledge and rationality.

And in practice even those who most passionately argue for moral subjectivity live by the premise that moral principles such as fairness, justice, doing good by neighbour etc are binding. That is, there is no good reason to doubt that reality.

OUGHT, credibly, is real and binding.

But if OUGHT is real, it has to be grounded in a foundational IS in the cosmos.

After centuries of debate, there is still only one serious candidate, the inherently good Creator-God, a necessary and maximally great being.

Essentially, the being we find referred to in the US Declaration of Independence of 1776 (which also shows the positive, liberating historic impact of such a view):

When . . . it becomes necessary for one people . . . to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, [cf Rom 1:18 – 21, 2:14 – 15], that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. –That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security . . . .

(Readers may wish to see this discussion in context as well.)

By way of contrast, on the evolutionary materialist perspective, we may for instance see Dawkins, in  as reproduced in “God’s Utility Function” in Sci Am in 1995:

Nature is not cruel, only pitilessly indifferent. This lesson is one of the hardest for humans to learn. We cannot accept that things might be neither good nor evil, neither cruel nor kind, but simply callous: indifferent to all suffering, lacking all purpose . . . . In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won’t find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but pitiless indifference . . . . DNA neither cares nor knows. DNA just is. And we dance to its music. [[ “God’s Utility Function,” Sci. Am. Aug 1995, pp. 80 – 85.]

. . . or (adding overnight), Michael Ruse & E. O. Wilson in the 1991 form of the essay, “The Evolution of Ethics”

The time has come to take seriously the fact [[–> This is a gross error at the outset, as macro-evolution is a theory (an explanation) about the unobserved past of origins and so cannot be a fact on the level of the observed roundness of the earth or the orbiting of planets around the sun etc.] that we humans are modified monkeys, not the favored Creation of a Benevolent God on the Sixth Day . . . We must think again especially about our so-called ‘ethical principles.’ The question is not whether biology—specifically, our evolution—is connected with ethics, but how. As evolutionists, we see that no justification of the traditional kind is possible. Morality, or more strictly our belief in morality, is merely an adaptation put in place to further our reproductive ends. Hence the basis of ethics does not lie in God’s will  … In an important sense, ethics as we understand it is an illusion fobbed off on us by our genes to get us to cooperate. It is without external groundingEthics is illusory inasmuch as it persuades us that it has an objective reference. This is the crux of the biological position. [= evolutionary materialist philosophical premise, duly dressed up in a lab coat . . . ] Once it is grasped, everything falls into place. [Michael Ruse & E. O. Wilson, “The Evolution of Ethics,” Religion and the Natural Sciences: The Range of Engagement, , ed. J. E. Hutchingson, Orlando, Fl.:Harcourt and Brace, 1991.

. . . and Provine in his Darwin Day address at U. Tenn 1998:

Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent . . . . The first 4 implications are so obvious to modern naturalistic evolutionists that I will spend little time defending them. Human free will, however, is another matter. Even evolutionists have trouble swallowing that implication. I will argue that humans are locally determined systems that make choices. They have, however, no free will . . .

With Sir Francis Crick backing up in an inadvertent self-refutation:

. . . that “You”, your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. As Lewis Carroll’s Alice might have phrased: “You’re nothing but a pack of neurons.” [–> But Sir Francis, what does this imply about your own responsible freedom and ability to choose to think reasonably?] This hypothesis is so alien to the ideas of most people today that it can truly be called astonishing. [Cf. dramatisation of unintended potential consequences, here.]

So, it seems that if we are inclined to accept evolutionary materialist scientism and to reject God, we do end up in a want of foundation for morality. Which carries the onward implication of a general delusion and breakdown of the credibility of rational mindedness and responsible freedom.

Thus, reductio ad absurdum.

At least, that is how it looks from where I sit and type. Thoughts? (And if the thoughts are evolutionary materialistic, how do you ground credibility of mind and morals on such? For surely, blindly mechanical computation is not contemplation.) END

PS: I think it worth adding (Jan 29) a Koukl lecture:

[vimeo 9026899]

 

Comments
I have to say, the fact that out morals have changed since the past are exactly what we would expect if morals are not objective and instead are relative to human experience and knowledge. Again, I'm not saying there are no moral objectives but we can't determine which morals are and are not objective. Meaning that all the morals we have today are a product of our own collective mind in relation to the universe, and not because some God dictated them to us. If he did they wouldn't change.ForJah
January 29, 2015
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kairosfocus: 1: do or do we not have rights that pivot on our value and dignity as human beings, including life, liberty, innocent reputation etc? Sure. We happen to be very fond of Earth's more intelligent ape. Consider it a peccadillo.Zachriel
January 29, 2015
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Heartlander: Fashion and etiquette has staying power such as wearing clothes or eating with utensils. Clothes have changed considerably over time. Slavery was acceptable in most of the world for most of human history. Colonialism and ethnic cleansing are as old as civilization. Government-sanctioned torture is still in existence. Heartlander (quoting): If, for instance, to take an extreme case, men were reared under precisely the same conditions as hive-bees, there can hardly be a doubt that our unmarried females would, like the worker-bees, think it a sacred duty to kill their brothers, and mothers would strive to kill their fertile daughters; and no one would think of interfering. Well, it was not uncommon in human history for people to sacrifice their children to their gods, and to consider it not only morally acceptable, but a moral duty. However, while humans are very flexible in their behaviors, they do tend to form attachments to those to whom they are close. This results in an in-group out-group dynamic.Zachriel
January 29, 2015
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Z @102 Moral justifications have more staying power... Fashion and etiquette has staying power such as wearing clothes or eating with utensils. The quote provided @92
If, for instance, to take an extreme case, men were reared under precisely the same conditions as hive-bees, there can hardly be a doubt that our unmarried females would, like the worker-bees, think it a sacred duty to kill their brothers, and mothers would strive to kill their fertile daughters; and no one would think of interfering. - Darwin Descent of Man
Heartlander
January 29, 2015
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Vs, 1: do or do we not have rights that pivot on our value and dignity as human beings, including life, liberty, innocent reputation etc? 2: Do or do we not therefore have a reasonable binding expectation that (a) such should be respected, and (b) that governments in material part exist to safeguard such by defending the civil peace of justice? 3: And, is or is not it a reasonable foundation for such that we are equally made in the image of God who endows us with such rights, with correlative mutual duties of care? 4: Is, or is that not explicitly taught in, inter alia the following scriptural summary on life in community:
Rom 13:8 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong [--> or, harm] to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. [ESV]
5: Is or is this not binding on a Pastor, and would this not be a direct un-bridgeable contrast to your imagined praying mantis pastor? 6: Further to this is it not a longstanding answer of the Christian faith to attempts to mis-apply the so-called Euthyphro dilemma to the inherently good Creator-God, a necessary and maximally great being that the good is inherent to his nature, is neither arbitrary nor independent of the One who is the root of being, and is our reasonable -- it makes good sense -- service? 7: Yet further, is or is it not the case that it has been repeatedly drawn to your attention and that of others of like ilk, that in laying out the principles of what would become modern liberty and democracy, Locke in his 2nd essay on civil govt, Ch 2, cited "the judicious [anglican canon Richard] Hooker" thusly, from his Ecclesiastical Polity, 1594+:
. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man's hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [[Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [[Eccl. Polity,preface, Bk I, "ch." 8, p.80]
8: Is or is not a canon a clergyman, and is or is not the Golden Rule of neighbour love a principal canon of morality in the Judaeo-Christian frame? 9: why then did you see fit to erect so utterly distorted a comparison in choosing to introduce the notion of a "pastor" in the alleged analogy or metaphor above? 10: Do you therefore see why I and others rather would have reason to infer that such is a loaded, strawman caricature? __________ and so the red herrings led away to strawman caricatures loaded with ad hominems and set alight with snide or blatantly incendiary words continues. And there is no serious response to the cluster of serious issues on the table from the outset. KFkairosfocus
January 29, 2015
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Timmy: If immoral, then treatment depends on self-interest (which encompasses group status). If moral, self-interest is subordinated. So if a Nazi kills a Jew to prevent the 'vermin' from undermining the German nation, then it is moral. You do realize that Hitler thought the Jews were evil and dangerous?Zachriel
January 29, 2015
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Heartlander: But you believe the moral justification changes much like fashion and etiquette No. Moral justifications have more staying power, but they can and do change. There are certain commonalities having to do with human nature related to whether someone is considered in-group or out-group. Heartlander: how is insect mating worse? Worse for humans: male humans are important for the survival of the tribe and for child-rearing. Better for mantises: the male is small and expendable after mating, but does provide a hearty meal for the mother and her eggs. (ETA: cannibalism is actually rare.) Heartlander: (you read the quote from Darwin) Which quote? Heartlander: Is it due to; selfish genes, survival of the fittest, or game theory? All of the above.Zachriel
January 29, 2015
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Zachriel: "The key to how people are treated by others largely depends on whether they are considered in-group or out-group." No, the key is figuring out if the actor is moral or immoral. If immoral, then treatment depends on self-interest (which encompasses group status). If moral, self-interest is subordinated. --- If there is no God, that means everything is just atoms and math, and that means there is no mind or free will, and that means objective morality cannot have any meaning. If objective morality has meaning, free will must be real. If free will is real, reality must be more than just atoms and math. If there is more than atoms and math, there must be a God. Absent objective morality, the only rule of behavior that makes any sense is self-interest. It may be that respecting others in your group makes you better off, but that's only if they know about it. Any time an atheist behaves morally in secret, he is strictly being silly.Timmy
January 29, 2015
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Z - @99 But you believe the moral justification changes much like fashion and etiquette – if the shoe fits… Curious – how is insect mating worse (you read the quote from Darwin)? Is it due to; selfish genes, survival of the fittest, or game theory?Heartlander
January 29, 2015
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Heartlander: So you do equate morality with etiquette or current fashion (such as hats and shoes) Um, no. People find moral justifications for their actions, including slavery. The key to how people are treated by others largely depends on whether they are considered in-group or out-group. Heartlander: but you see human ‘morality’ as better than insect mating etiquette. Better for humans.Zachriel
January 29, 2015
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Z - @97 So you do equate morality with etiquette or current fashion (such as hats and shoes) but you see human ‘morality’ as better than insect mating etiquette. Zachriel’s current mode du jour. Personally, I don’t think your shoes go with your hat votre empereurHeartlander
January 29, 2015
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Heartlander: Do you equate morality with etiquette or current fashion? Did you not understand the answer? People find moral justifications for their actions, including slavery. The key to how people are treated largely depends on whether they are considered in-group or out-group. Heartlander: Is insect and human ‘morality’ ultimately the same? No. Humans don't literally bite the head off their mates after sex, not as a general rule anyway.Zachriel
January 29, 2015
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Z - @ 95 The questions are directed at you - Do you equate morality with etiquette or current fashion? Is insect and human ‘morality’ ultimately the same?Heartlander
January 29, 2015
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Heartlander: Do you equate morality with etiquette or current fashion? Thomas Jefferson had a special walkway constructed above ground so that the slaves could walk below the walkway out of sight of his guests. He also had a dumbwaiter installed so that food could be brought up to the dining table without the slaves being seen. It was just good manners, you see. kairosfocus: there is no proper analogy between insect and human behaviour as regards responsible freedom of action. Yeah, silly fiddle-playing grasshopper. The motto, of course, is to join the musicians union, so that if they dance to the music, they gotta pay the piper. In any case, you have been provided many alternative moral systems among humans. The key to how people are treated largely depends on whether they are considered in-group or out-group.Zachriel
January 29, 2015
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F/N: As the by now usual attempt to distort the Judaeo-Christian moral frame is being hinted at, I again post the central exposition of that frame of thought by its leading authoritative teacher. In his best known sermon, the most famous sermon of all time: _______________ >> Matthew 5-7 Matthew 5-7English Standard Version (ESV) The Sermon on the Mount 5 Seeing the crowds, he went up on the mountain, and when he sat down, his disciples came to him. The Beatitudes 2 And he opened his mouth and taught them, saying: 3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 4 “Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted. 5 “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. 6 “Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied. 7 “Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy. 8 “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. 9 “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons[a] of God. 10 “Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11 “Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. 12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you. Salt and Light 13 “You are the salt of the earth, but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trampled under people's feet. 14 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that[b] they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven. Christ Came to Fulfill the Law 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Anger 21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother[c] will be liable to judgment; whoever insults[d] his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell[e] of fire. 23 So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison. 26 Truly, I say to you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny.[f] Lust 27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell. Divorce 31 “It was also said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’ 32 But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery. Oaths 33 “Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform to the Lord what you have sworn.’ 34 But I say to you, Do not take an oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 And do not take an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 Let what you say be simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything more than this comes from evil.[g] Retaliation 38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic,[h] let him have your cloak as well. 41 And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42 Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you. Love Your Enemies 43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers,[i] what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Giving to the Needy 6 “Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. 2 “Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. 3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. The Lord's Prayer 5 “And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. 6 But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. 7 “And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. 9 Pray then like this: “Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name.[j] 10 Your kingdom come, your will be done,[k] on earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread,[l] 12 and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.[m] 14 For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, 15 but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Fasting 16 “And when you fast, do not look gloomy like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces that their fasting may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. 17 But when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, 18 that your fasting may not be seen by others but by your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. Lay Up Treasures in Heaven 19 “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust[n] destroy and where thieves break in and steal, 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. 22 “The eye is the lamp of the body. So, if your eye is healthy, your whole body will be full of light, 23 but if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness! 24 “No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.[o] Do Not Be Anxious 25 “Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? 26 Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? 27 And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life?[p] 28 And why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin, 29 yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30 But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31 Therefore do not be anxious, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the Gentiles seek after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. 33 But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you. 34 “Therefore do not be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble. Judging Others 7 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. 3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. 6 “Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you. Ask, and It Will Be Given 7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? 11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! The Golden Rule 12 “So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets. 13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy[q] that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. A Tree and Its Fruit 15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits. I Never Knew You 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ Build Your House on the Rock 24 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. 26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.” The Authority of Jesus 28 And when Jesus finished these sayings, the crowds were astonished at his teaching, 29 for he was teaching them as one who had authority, and not as their scribes. >> _______________ We may confidently say, that we do struggle to meet that standard. And, we may observe that this provides abundant corrective resources for Christians, lay or clergy who do or teach things that are in error. KFkairosfocus
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Z, there is no proper analogy between insect and human behaviour as regards responsible freedom of action. And if you wish to compare an insect killing her mate with humans who kill others, something has gone seriously wrong, clever quips about Aesop's fables notwithstanding. KF PS: We are well into day 2 and the serious challenge on the table since the OP has yet to be taken seriously by one of the objectors.kairosfocus
January 29, 2015
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Z - @91 Do you equate morality with etiquette or current fashion? Insect and human ‘morality’ is ultimately the same?
If, for instance, to take an extreme case, men were reared under precisely the same conditions as hive-bees, there can hardly be a doubt that our unmarried females would, like the worker-bees, think it a sacred duty to kill their brothers, and mothers would strive to kill their fertile daughters; and no one would think of interfering. - Darwin Descent of Man
Heartlander
January 29, 2015
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kairosfocus: clever quips do not answer to a significant issue It wasn't a quip, but an analogy. It shows that what is considered moral depends on the viewpoint of the observer. We could provide human examples; e.g. Luther and the Jews, slavery, genocide, colonialism, what have you; but the mantises overheard by a fly was apt. kairosfocus: There is a world of difference between animal and human behaviour, and if that difference is blurred in a context that undermines the value of the human being, history warns on the consequences. Aesop, undermining society since 600 BCE. Heartlander: Required? de rigueur, required by etiquette or current fashion. {In the past, of course, both women and men in public life considered a hat to be as de rigueur as shoes.}Zachriel
January 29, 2015
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VS: I do not think you realise the matches you are playing with. Herr Schicklegruber, discussing his struggle:
Any crossing of two beings not at exactly the same level produces a medium between the level of the two parents . . . Consequently, it will later succumb in the struggle against the higher level. Such mating is contrary to the will of Nature for a higher breeding of all life . . . The stronger must dominate and not blend with the weaker, thus sacrificing his own greatness. Only the born weakling can view this as cruel, but he after all is only a weak and limited man; for if this law did not prevail, any conceivable higher development of organic living beings would be unthinkable. The consequence of this racial purity, universally valid in Nature, is not only the sharp outward delimitation of the various races, but their uniform character in themselves. The fox is always a fox, the goose a goose, the tiger a tiger, etc., and the difference can lie at most in the varying measure of force, strength, intelligence, dexterity, endurance, etc., of the individual specimens. But you will never find a fox who in his inner attitude might, for example, show humanitarian tendencies toward geese, as similarly there is no cat with a friendly inclination toward mice . . . .
There is a world of difference between animal and human behaviour, and if that difference is blurred in a context that undermines the value of the human being, history warns on the consequences. There is a world of difference between responsible, rational freedom and the world of blind chance and mechanical necessity, as well as the world of instinct. Indeed, the story you chose above inadvertently shows how evolutionary materialism, having in it no IS that grounds OUGHT, ends in the chaos of might and manipulation make 'right.' As was warned against, long since. KFkairosfocus
January 29, 2015
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KF; Z, clever quips do not answer to a significant issue. KF Truth can take many forms,grasshopper.velikovskys
January 29, 2015
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Z @ 86 - Required? Explain...Heartlander
January 29, 2015
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Kairosfocus, thank you for bringing up the all-important issue of naturalism's inability to accommodate reason and the mind. Naturalism -> matter behind the steering wheel -> no free will -> "drastic undermining of the credibility of the reasoning, warranting, knowing mind, ending in self referential incoherence no 2."
KF: (...) evolutionary materialism advocates are now into day two of dodging.
My prediction: as usual they will keep dodging the point, because there is absolutely no way for them to address it. IOW this simple but profound argument refutes naturalism.Box
January 29, 2015
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Heartlander: ‘Eat the male’s head after mating’. Hmmm… Il est de rigueur.Zachriel
January 29, 2015
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Z, clever quips do not answer to a significant issue. KFkairosfocus
January 29, 2015
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William Lane Craig: If God does not exist, objective moral values and duties do not exist. That doesn't follow. Objective moral values might exist even if God does not. kairosfocus: if one rejects the objectivity of the general sense of OUGHT as governing our behaviour, we are implying a general delusion. If one rejects the subjectivity of the general sense of OUGHT as governing human behavior, one is implying a general delusion.Zachriel
January 29, 2015
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@ 68 ‘Treat others as you would want them to treat you’ – vs – ‘Eat the male’s head after mating’. Hmmm…Heartlander
January 29, 2015
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kairosfocus: the analogy fails because it misses several highly material points of comparison. Heh. None of your comment addresses the analogy.Zachriel
January 29, 2015
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Z, the analogy fails because it misses several highly material points of comparison. But then, on evolutionary materialist premises, as Provine argues:
Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent . . . . The first 4 implications are so obvious to modern naturalistic evolutionists that I will spend little time defending them. Human free will, however, is another matter. Even evolutionists have trouble swallowing that implication. I will argue that humans are locally determined systems that make choices. They have, however, no free will . . .
In short, you likely don't see the pivotal fallacy because you -- as an adherent of evolutionary materialism or a close fellow traveller -- do not acknowledge human beings to be significantly free and responsible to think and act aright. But that worldview position has consequences. Specifically, the undermining of the credibility of the reasoning, warranting, knowing mind, ending in self referential incoherence no 1. Secondly, if morality is as Ruse and Wilson put it "an illusion fobbed off on us by our genes . . . " then that injects grand general delusion into mindedness. There are no firewalls in the mind and so again we see drastic undermining of the credibility of the reasoning, warranting, knowing mind, ending in self referential incoherence no 2. Which are of course two key points in the OP that evolutionary materialism advocates are now into day two of dodging. The issue is serious and needs to be adequately answered. KFkairosfocus
January 29, 2015
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Brent, I think error, even widespread embedded error backed up by ideology is different from being delusional. Particularly as the inconsistency between what relativism implies and what most who declare themselves in support actually do is BECAUSE thanks to conscience they are in a lot better contact with reality than what the implications of the nominal belief system point to. Of course, such adherence weakens conviction and makes such people vulnerable to manipulation by the clever, powerful and ruthless . . . who more often than we like to reckon ARE sociopathic, narcissistic and highly machiavellian. KF PS: To see what I am highlighting cf here https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/fulfillment-any-age/201301/shedding-light-psychology-s-dark-triad The dirty dozen, 1 to 7 score yourself Q's:
1] I tend to manipulate others to get my way. 2] I tend to lack remorse. 3] I tend to want others to admire me. 4] I tend to be unconcerned with the morality of my actions. 5] I have used deceit or lied to get my way. 6] I tend to be callous or insensitive. 7] I have used flattery to get my way. 8] I tend to seek prestige or status. 9] I tend to be cynical. 10] I tend to exploit others toward my own end. 11] I tend to expect special favors from others. 12] I want others to pay attention to me. The total score can range from 12 to 84, but you can also break down the scales into the three traits as follows: Machiavellianism= 1, 5, 7, 10; Psychopathy= 2, 4, 6, 9; Narcissism= 3, 8, 11, 12.
Resemblance of the above to trollish conduct is NOT coincidental. And, as memory/adherence to objectivity in morality fades and as relativist indoctrination is drummed in ever more deeply, the incidence of the dark triad pattern will grow dramatically. The resulting anarchy and fear will lead many to the devils bargain of surrendering liberty to gain safety. And guess who will end up in control -- you guessed it, wolves in the clothing of the shepherd.kairosfocus
January 29, 2015
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hrun0815, OK, hrun. "Greatly mistaken". Will you stop dodging now? It is telling that you dismiss the rest of my post which takes a great, great deal of the sting out of what I mean (and I'm guessing WJM means) by deluded. You seem to confirm my thoughts about the reason for the big stink you are making. As for KF, I'm guessing he is, as per usual, very reluctant to use "deluded" in a 'light' way as I am (and perhaps WJM) due to the baggage that is associated with it; yes, it clearly is most often used to say more than what I'm saying.Brent
January 29, 2015
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