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William Lane Craig’s video on the objectivity of morality and the linked reality of God

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Here:

[youtube OxiAikEk2vU]

In this video, Dr Craig argues that we have good reason to accept the objectivity of ought, and from that we see that there is a credible ground of such, God.

In slightly more details, if one rejects the objectivity of the general sense of OUGHT as governing our behaviour, we are implying a general delusion.

Where, as there are no firewalls in the mind . . . a general delusion undermines the general credibility of knowledge and rationality.

And in practice even those who most passionately argue for moral subjectivity live by the premise that moral principles such as fairness, justice, doing good by neighbour etc are binding. That is, there is no good reason to doubt that reality.

OUGHT, credibly, is real and binding.

But if OUGHT is real, it has to be grounded in a foundational IS in the cosmos.

After centuries of debate, there is still only one serious candidate, the inherently good Creator-God, a necessary and maximally great being.

Essentially, the being we find referred to in the US Declaration of Independence of 1776 (which also shows the positive, liberating historic impact of such a view):

When . . . it becomes necessary for one people . . . to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, [cf Rom 1:18 – 21, 2:14 – 15], that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. –That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security . . . .

(Readers may wish to see this discussion in context as well.)

By way of contrast, on the evolutionary materialist perspective, we may for instance see Dawkins, in  as reproduced in “God’s Utility Function” in Sci Am in 1995:

Nature is not cruel, only pitilessly indifferent. This lesson is one of the hardest for humans to learn. We cannot accept that things might be neither good nor evil, neither cruel nor kind, but simply callous: indifferent to all suffering, lacking all purpose . . . . In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won’t find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but pitiless indifference . . . . DNA neither cares nor knows. DNA just is. And we dance to its music. [[ “God’s Utility Function,” Sci. Am. Aug 1995, pp. 80 – 85.]

. . . or (adding overnight), Michael Ruse & E. O. Wilson in the 1991 form of the essay, “The Evolution of Ethics”

The time has come to take seriously the fact [[–> This is a gross error at the outset, as macro-evolution is a theory (an explanation) about the unobserved past of origins and so cannot be a fact on the level of the observed roundness of the earth or the orbiting of planets around the sun etc.] that we humans are modified monkeys, not the favored Creation of a Benevolent God on the Sixth Day . . . We must think again especially about our so-called ‘ethical principles.’ The question is not whether biology—specifically, our evolution—is connected with ethics, but how. As evolutionists, we see that no justification of the traditional kind is possible. Morality, or more strictly our belief in morality, is merely an adaptation put in place to further our reproductive ends. Hence the basis of ethics does not lie in God’s will  … In an important sense, ethics as we understand it is an illusion fobbed off on us by our genes to get us to cooperate. It is without external groundingEthics is illusory inasmuch as it persuades us that it has an objective reference. This is the crux of the biological position. [= evolutionary materialist philosophical premise, duly dressed up in a lab coat . . . ] Once it is grasped, everything falls into place. [Michael Ruse & E. O. Wilson, “The Evolution of Ethics,” Religion and the Natural Sciences: The Range of Engagement, , ed. J. E. Hutchingson, Orlando, Fl.:Harcourt and Brace, 1991.

. . . and Provine in his Darwin Day address at U. Tenn 1998:

Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent . . . . The first 4 implications are so obvious to modern naturalistic evolutionists that I will spend little time defending them. Human free will, however, is another matter. Even evolutionists have trouble swallowing that implication. I will argue that humans are locally determined systems that make choices. They have, however, no free will . . .

With Sir Francis Crick backing up in an inadvertent self-refutation:

. . . that “You”, your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. As Lewis Carroll’s Alice might have phrased: “You’re nothing but a pack of neurons.” [–> But Sir Francis, what does this imply about your own responsible freedom and ability to choose to think reasonably?] This hypothesis is so alien to the ideas of most people today that it can truly be called astonishing. [Cf. dramatisation of unintended potential consequences, here.]

So, it seems that if we are inclined to accept evolutionary materialist scientism and to reject God, we do end up in a want of foundation for morality. Which carries the onward implication of a general delusion and breakdown of the credibility of rational mindedness and responsible freedom.

Thus, reductio ad absurdum.

At least, that is how it looks from where I sit and type. Thoughts? (And if the thoughts are evolutionary materialistic, how do you ground credibility of mind and morals on such? For surely, blindly mechanical computation is not contemplation.) END

PS: I think it worth adding (Jan 29) a Koukl lecture:

[vimeo 9026899]

 

Comments
Again, I’m sorry, but I too think you are dodging the issue and using some feigned offense as your excuse.
This is not about being a victim or using anything as an excuse. WJM was very clear about the fact that he does not believe that the people on this board can live their life according to what they profess to be true. Either they delude themselves or they are sociopaths. You, again, confirmed this to be an accurate description. KF, even though he used many more words, also confirmed this to be true. Yet, here we are dancing around this issue. Why not admit this to be true? Why in the world do you think KF does not want to fess up that this is what he really believes? We could then delve into discussing how he started off this thread with a similar 'steers and queers' dismissal of everybody who disagrees with him.hrun0815
January 29, 2015
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Well, I appear to be using the word "deluded" with a lot less baggage attached. The reason I am willing to use such a heavy word is for the fact that I think the thing in question is, or should be, quite obvious, and therefore describing it a "mistake" seems a little too easy.Brent
January 29, 2015
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kairosfocus: Praying mantises are creatures of instinct, not rational, morally governed human beings. Ha! It's an analogy. Try again.Zachriel
January 29, 2015
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is simply answered, yes. You can be a ‘subjectivist’ without being a sociopath, IF you mean that one is subjectivist in word and declaration, rather than living their life consistently as a subjectivist.
Great. So you can be a subjectivist without being a sociopath if you delusional (i.e. you believe that you are a subjectivist but in fact you do not live your life as such). Thanks for the clarification. I wonder if KF agrees now.
You are not going to get many people here to claim you or others are really sociopaths, [...]
Again, I never made such a claim! I very clearly stated that there is a second option. The subjectivists that are not sociopaths are delusional: They believe the are subjectivists yet they do not live like they are subjectivists.hrun0815
January 29, 2015
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hrun0815, If,
WJM. Made a very clear argument: All subjectivists act in fact unknowingly act as objectivists (so they are deluded) and the only people that truly are subjectivists are sociopaths.
is accurate as you say (and I don't doubt it), then your question,
Can you in fact be a subjectivist without being a sociopath?
is simply answered, yes. You can be a 'subjectivist' without being a sociopath, IF you mean that one is subjectivist in word and declaration, rather than living their life consistently as a subjectivist. If one is ACTUALLY a subjectivist, not in word only, but actually lived consistently with what that entails, well, they would be a sociopath. You are not going to get many people here to claim you or others are really sociopaths, so you should stop asking. What I was trying to say at #20 above (I'm sorry I didn't make it very clear I'm sure) was that, yes, I would say someone like you (as far as I really understand your position) is deluded (like man number three). But you have no reason to be up in arms about it because, 1) it is only meant in this one narrow (though extremely important) respect regarding thinking on morality; no one is saying, "Ha-ha-ha! Look at this guy. He is delusional!!!" as if you are deluded about everything. And 2), we are pointing to a case where it is pretty easy to point out how your understanding is incorrect, and therefore no one is just "ad-homineming" you, if you will, by saying, "Ha-ha-ha! Look at this guy. He is delusional!!!" Now, I'm sorry to say, but you really don't, I think, have any excuse to be playing the victim card in the way you have been as you almost definitely know what was just explained to you by both myself, KF, and I have a hard time believing you didn't really understand it in whatever conversations you had with WJM. Again, I'm sorry, but I too think you are dodging the issue and using some feigned offense as your excuse.Brent
January 29, 2015
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He is saying if you did live consistent with the declarative beliefs, then that would require the sort of deadening of conscience that issues in sociopathic behaviour.
Pardon, KF, but no. He is not saying that this would 'require the sort of deadening of conscience that issues in sociopathic behaviour'. He is saying that if you believe that moral subjectivism is true there are only one of two things you can do: - You can act as if you are an objectivist even though you believe subjectivism to be true. - Or you can actually live according to subjectivism which would make you a sociopath. Which in fact is something that others willingly ascribe to as well. In fact, you are admitting the same, yet, you are hiding this fact in a thousand word post and obscuring it in different words. Let's ask again: Can you in fact be a subjectivist without being a sociopath? If you say yes, then you disagree with WJM. If you say no then you disagree with yourself. Pick one. And again, your dodging, distorting, distracting, and deflecting of the issue is duly noted and clear for all to see.hrun0815
January 29, 2015
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Z: Praying mantises are creatures of instinct, not rational, morally governed human beings. Do you want for me to cite Herr Schicklegruber on the subject of the attitude of cats to mice to spotlight the difference? A specific case BTW that is addressed in the WLC video in the OP. KFkairosfocus
January 29, 2015
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HR, You are beginning to play the distract-distort, denigrate game. Let's observe your quote:
[WJM:] I suggest most people involved in this discussion can only live as if moral objectivism is true; only sociopaths can live as if moral subjectivism is true. I don’t think anyone can live as if moral relativism is true.
Notice, WJM is NOT saying that relativists and/or subjectivists are sociopaths, which is the second tier strawman that began to appear above:
[HR, 57:} WJM however very clearly stated that I and all other subjectivists are either delusional or sociopaths.
Nope. He is pointing to a gap between the assertions and their implications on the one hand for subjectivism, and the actual typical behaviour. In short, he is saying by and large you don't live by the raw and undiluted implications of evolutionary materialist moral relativism. He is saying if you did live consistent with the declarative beliefs, then that would require the sort of deadening of conscience that issues in sociopathic behaviour. Let me clip Koukl in the linked Salvo Mag article that draws out some of the force of that:
Rule #1: Relativists Can’t Accuse Others of Wrong-Doing Relativism makes it impossible to criticize the behavior of others, because relativism ultimately denies that there is such a thing as wrong- doing. In other words, if you believe that morality is a matter of personal definition, then you can’t ever again judge the actions of others. Relativists can’t even object on moral grounds to racism. After all, what sense can be made of the judgment “apartheid is wrong” when spoken by someone who doesn’t believe in right and wrong? What justification is there to intervene? Certainly not human rights, for there are no such things as rights. Relativism is the ultimate pro-choice position because it accepts every personal choice—even the choice to be racist. Rule #2: Relativists Can’t Complain About the Problem of Evil The reality of evil in the world is one of the primary objections raised against the existence of God. The argument goes that if God were absolutely powerful and ultimately good, then he would take care of evil. But since evil exists, one of three possible scenarios has to be true: God is too weak to oppose evil, God is too sinister to care about evil, or God simply doesn’t exist. Of course, to advance any one of these arguments means that you also have to believe in evil, which relativists can’t do. In fact, nothing can be called evil—not even the Holocaust—because to do so would be to affirm some sort of moral standard. Rule #3: Relativists Can’t Place Blame or Accept Praise The concepts of praise and blame are completely meaningless within relativism because there is no moral standard by which to judge whether something should be applauded or condemned. Without absolutes, nothing is ultimately bad, deplorable, tragic, or worthy of blame. Neither is anything ultimately good, honorable, noble, or worthy of praise. It’s all lost in a twilight zone of moral nothingness. Those claiming to be relativists are almost always inconsistent here (they want to avoid blame but readily accept praise), so be careful! Rule #4: Relativists Can’t Claim Anything Is Unfair or Unjust Under relativism, justice and fairness are two concepts that make absolutely no sense whatsoever. First off, the words themselves have no meaning; both suggest that people deserve equal treatment based on an external standard of what is right, and as I have already said several times, relativists can’t believe in right and wrong. Second, there is no such thing as guilt. Justice entails punishing those who are guilty, and guilt depends on blame, which, as I have also already proven, cannot exist. Rule #5: Relativists Can’t Improve Their Morality With relativism, moral improvement is impossible. Sure, relativists can change their personal ethics, but they can never become moral people. Moral reform implies some kind of objective rule of conduct as a standard to shoot for. But this rule is exactly what relativists deny. If there is no better way, there can be no improvement. Not only that, but there is no motivation to improve. Relativism destroys the moral impulse that makes people rise above themselves because there is no “above” to rise to. Why change your moral point of view if your current one serves your self-interest and feels good for the time being? Rule#6: Relativists Can’t Hold Meaningful Moral Discussions Relativism makes it impossible to discuss morality. What’s there to talk about? An ethical discussion involves comparing the merits of one view with those of another to find out which is best. But if morals are entirely relative and all views are equally valid, then no way of thinking is better than any other. No moral position can be judged adequate or deficient, unreasonable, unacceptable, or even barbaric. In fact, if ethical disputes only make sense when morals are objective, then relativism can only be consistently lived out in silence. You can’t even say, “It’s wrong to push your morality on others.” Rule #7: Relativists Can’t Promote the Obligation of Tolerance Finally, there is no tolerance in relativism, because the moral obligation to be tolerant violates the rules. The principle of tolerance is often considered one of the key virtues of relativism. Morals are individual, and so we should tolerate the viewpoints of others by not judging their behavior and attitudes. But it should be obvious that this principle fails through contradiction. If there are no moral rules, there can be no rule that requires tolerance as a moral principle. In fact, if there are no moral absolutes, why be tolerant at all? Why not force your morality on others if it’s in your self-interest and your personal ethics allow it? Just be sure not to speak when doing so.
The incoherences and typical inconsistencies should be clear enough. WJM and others are pointing out an error, a fallacy that is fairly common nowadays. But it is extreme to take pointing out an error and turn it into, you are suggesting we are delusional -- a term with quite serious psychological/medical overtones of being seriously out of contact with reality. That, is erecting a loaded strawman. Instead, WJM is implying or stating that most relativists live better than what their nominal beliefs imply if taken at strict value. That is, he is pointing to an incoherence that points to a fallacy or error in action. A common enough problem. He is also implying that precisely because of the power of conscience you are living in better contact with reality than your declared beliefs strictly imply. And, he is also cautioning by suggestion that the error of relativism is one that makes people more and more vulnerable to clever manipulators who push agendas by manufacturing rights out of whole cloth as claimed entitlements to be backed up by state power, and dehumanising victims of such. Then, those who object are turned into caricatures and scapegoats. As in, I have a right to sit at a store lunch counter or in the bus without those of darker skins sitting as my equals. And if such get uppity, I have a right to teach them a lesson and get the local sheriff to back me up. And if any N-lovers object, why we will take care of those commies just fine and bury them out by the dam when we are finished. I can update to deal with the ongoing abortion holocaust of 55 millions or so in the USA and hundreds of millions more around the world. But, you would likely have a much harder time seeing this case of robbing unborn children of their lives typically on utterly flimsy excuses. The pattern is plain. All of us once were children in the womb, just as the fact that I have ancestors from Europe, Africa and Asia shows conclusively that we are all "of one blood." So, the side track has been answered, yet again. Not that that is likely to deter further resort to it as a convenient side track. And a second day of dodging the pivotal issue continues apace. The astute onlooker can see the implications clearly enough. KFkairosfocus
January 29, 2015
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Graham2
Most of it is internally consistent, in that if we really did have an objective moral standard, it would need god, or something similar. But does an objective moral standard exist ? I would have thought it bleeding obvious that there is no such standard.
Conscience points to something objective. When we feel guilty for something that nobody even knows we did, we're responding to something objective or universal. You could have some kind of morality without a god, but it's weak and inconsistent. There would be no ultimate consequences. The moral code wouldn't be fixed - it could change. There would be no binding reason to follow that code if there wasn't a god. When we do good or bad actions there's an evaluation or judgement. If the individual created the moral code, then he is the lawmaker and the judge -- but he's also the defendent in cases where he wonders if he did something wrong. Subjectively, we could declare ourselves innocent of everything. We could change the law or make it impossible to violate it. But we know when we do something wrong and when we do a good act -- the judgement for those things comes from an objective moral code, external to ourselves.Silver Asiatic
January 29, 2015
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DDD
I’m not seeing it, Silver Asiatic. I’m looking for tools to help me find objective truth.
Ok, but you're asking about objective morals. That is different from objective truth.
Also “the external authority of the lawgiver” is clearly subjective – a choice made by an entity. If they are objective then they transcend entities and you don’t need a God to see them?
Again, you have to make a distinction between objective and subjective. What are the moral virtues as explained by Aristotle? That's an objective moral code that anyone can reference. Aristotle defends his teaching through reason and philosophy. His moral code was established and had a body of followers who adopted it. He was recognized as an authority -- not as the source of moral values themselves (those are from God) but as one who explained, rationally, what those values are. That is objective morality. It's different than subjective. "What is the subjectivist's moral code"? The only authority given for that code is the individual himself. Those morals apply only to the individual. They cannot be taught or imposed as universal values - since any subjectivst can correctly and rightly disagree with every one of those values and claim the opposites to be morally good or bad.
Lots of scriptures claim to be the truth. How do I pick the objectively true one?
Again, you're confusing objective morality with objective truth. Objective moral codes can be found in various scriptures. You can see, review, practice and evaluate those codes. You can't do that with subjectivist morals. Choosing which scriptures are the true ones is a different topic. First, you have to recognize evidence that God exists. You could use ID theory to give support for that idea - even though ID does not require a belief in God necessarily.Silver Asiatic
January 29, 2015
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Two mantises, overheard by a fly:
Daughter: I don't want to eat my mate's head. Mother: But dear, everyone eats the male's head after mating. Daughter: But it's gross! Mother: At first, it might seem that way, but once you bite into it, you'll see. Daughter: Ewww! Mother: It's a family tradition. What would your father say? Daughter: How would I know? You ate his head before I was hatched. Mother: Young lady! I won't have you be the first to break with tradition. Daughter: Maybe just the tip ... Mother: Anyway, it's the right thing to do. It's called *objective morality*. Talk to the pastor at church. Daughter: Why does he still have a head? Mother: Unlucky in love, I guess... Now finish eating your fly and go to bed.
Zachriel
January 29, 2015
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Wow, KF, I am impressed. The gall of dodging the question and at the same time accusing others of dodging. Here is again WJM:
I suggest most people involved in this discussion can only live as if moral objectivism is true; only sociopaths can live as if moral subjectivism is true. I don’t think anyone can live as if moral relativism is true.
It's as clear as it comes: subjectivists are either deluded (they are in fact objectivists) or they are sociopaths. To use your own words 'it is really telling' and 'it should give you food for thought' to see who openly admits that they agree with WJM and who is trying to weasel around. I think it is pretty clear to onlookers which direction you chose.hrun0815
January 29, 2015
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ForJah @ 40
I don’t see how a person, other than myself, who tells me what is good and bad somehow makes those morals objective. That’s subjective, It’s subject to what God deems right. I don’t see why 3 can be used at all, since Objective moral values are defined independent or what any one individual might think AND of consensus. So I will have to side with DDD and ask…how do we detect objective morals enough to the fact that we can say there ARE objective morals?
First of all, make a distinction between subjective and objective. We act morally for a reason, with an intent. For subjectivism, the individual decides on moral values. The reason something is good or bad is because the individual decides it is, for himself, by himself. With objective morality, the moral code is external to the person. The individual did not create it. The reason why something is good or bad is not because the person chooses it to be so, but because the moral code demands it. An objective code is accessible. You can discover what the ten commandments are objectively. "What does Jesus state are the two most important moral values?" You can find that in the Bible. That's objective. It's like: "What is the first sentence of the US Constitution?" It's objective. A subjective morality is known by the individual alone. "What moral value does a subjectivist give to in vitro fertilization? There's no way to know or validate that except by asking the subjectivist. Plus, it's not a fixed value - the subjectivst can change his moral code whenever he wants. Or, he might not know what he believes. Objective values are accessible in the 3 ways I described. The most difficult way to access them is through the natural law alone -- this is the law that the conscience responds to when there is no other moral code to reference. The conscience tells the person that there is something good about an action - the conscience points to a law outside of the individual. It's not a moral law the individual created. That's why he feels guilty if he breaks it. There are objective morals, of course. They are different from subjective morals. The individual 'submits' himself to a moral law higher than himself with objective morality. The individual alone is the highest authority in subjective morality.Silver Asiatic
January 29, 2015
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HR, I have answered and others including WJM way back now have answered. You are setting up a strawman caricature, which we have corrected. This is getting into being the second day of a dodge of a worldview foundation issue. Here is my answer just above again:
. . . your insistence just now on trying to push words that don’t belong in our mouths there, i e that relativists by declaration or argument are sociopaths, is unjustified. All normally functioning people have consciences, though if one works hard enough at it one can deaden one’s conscience or anesthetize it with something like alcohol. The point is that conscience is sensing something real — the worth of one’s fellow human being for instance, whether or no our worldview notions sit comfortably with that. What WJM did say or imply is that those who lived fully consistent with the idea that morals are illusory would be sociopaths, living by might and manipulation makes ‘right.’ Especially, if they have the power to get away with what they want to do. I add, short of that, a sort of relativism with a swivel that suits one’s particular proclivities — especially if one can create a powerful enough pressure group — is a way to silence objection to a particular wrongful agenda. Often tied to painting those who dare object to the agenda in a very bigoted way. And we can name cases in point, with some pretty awful track records. But the underlying issue that keeps on being ducked is that we have a widespread testimony across time and space on the power of conscience to sense and respond to moral issues. With good reason to accept that generally speaking (absent warping or deadening), it is testifying to truth. Namely, we are under moral government of the force of OUGHT, or duty of care to the right, the fair etc. And the consequences of that, we should face.
Side-track to a strawman caricature, answered. Now, the core issue remains un-addressed for a second day. (And I took time to add from Ruse and Wilson on the point.) Inadvertently, sadly revealing. KF PS: It may be worth noting on what the Christian scriptures actually explicitly teach, just to answer a projection:
Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them . . . [ESV]
kairosfocus
January 29, 2015
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first I warn you on language that is getting close. Next, I note that again you are off on a tangent. Third, you are again insisting on a distortion.
I note that I asked you a simple question that would clear up a lot of things:
WJM. Made a very clear argument: All subjectivists act in fact unknowingly act as objectivists (so they are deluded) and the only people that truly are subjectivists are sociopaths. Do you disagree? Can you in fact be a subjectivist without being a sociopath?
Can you answer? Or do you want to obscure the fact that a) I characterized WJM's argument accurately and that b) you agree with it? And right on cue here come somebody else (#62) who claims that subjectivists are either incoherent or sociopaths. I presume this is also a distorted straw man caricature, right?hrun0815
January 29, 2015
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F/N: Those interested in a more structured discussion may wish to look here at a 101: http://www.angelfire.com/pro/kairosfocus/resources/Intro_phil/Ethics.htm This on seven common inconsistencies of relativists, is thought-stirring: http://www.salvomag.com/new/articles/salvo1/koukl.php J W Wallace may also help: http://coldcasechristianity.com/2013/are-objective-moral-truths-merely-a-matter-of-cultural-agreement/ Koukl's 1-hour lecture here I will add above: http://vimeo.com/9026899 KF PS: On grounding issues: http://coldcasechristianity.com/2014/god-didnt-create-moral-law-it-is-simply-a-reflection-of-his-character/ PPS: But people disagree . . . http://coldcasechristianity.com/2013/does-disagreement-prove-there-are-no-objective-moral-truths/kairosfocus
January 29, 2015
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If you are coherent, then objectively, you cannot avoid being a sociopath. But reason requires coherent thinking, and that has never been the atheists' strong suit, so you get a Pass. It's only when your level of consistency rises, and you get to killing the unborn, eugenics, etc, that your actual culpability is proximately entailed.Axel
January 29, 2015
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HR, first I warn you on language that is getting close. Next, I note that again you are off on a tangent. Third, you are again insisting on a distortion. BTW, have you looked at the OP as update with this from Ruse and Wilson:
In an important sense, ethics as we understand it is an illusion fobbed off on us by our genes to get us to cooperate. It is without external grounding… Ethics is illusory inasmuch as it persuades us that it has an objective reference. This is the crux of the biological position. [== evolutionary materialist philosophical premise, duly dressed up in a lab coat . . . ] Once it is grasped, everything falls into place. [Michael Ruse & E. O. Wilson, “The Evolution of Ethics,” Religion and the Natural Sciences: The Range of Engagement, , ed. J. E. Hutchingson, Orlando, Fl.:Harcourt and Brace, 1991.]
The actual issue being pointed to by WJM et al is a significant one. Above, I have already laid out ways in which this leads to a reductio challenge. And, your insistence just now on trying to push words that don't belong in our mouths there, i e that relativists by declaration or argument are sociopaths, is unjustified. All normally functioning people have consciences, though if one works hard enough at it one can deaden one's conscience or anesthetize it with something like alcohol. The point is that conscience is sensing something real -- the worth of one's fellow human being for instance, whether or no our worldview notions sit comfortably with that. What WJM did say or imply is that those who lived fully consistent with the idea that morals are illusory would be sociopaths, living by might and manipulation makes 'right.' Especially, if they have the power to get away with what they want to do. I add, short of that, a sort of relativism with a swivel that suits one's particular proclivities -- especially if one can create a powerful enough pressure group -- is a way to silence objection to a particular wrongful agenda. Often tied to painting those who dare object to the agenda in a very bigoted way. And we can name cases in point, with some pretty awful track records. But the underlying issue that keeps on being ducked is that we have a widespread testimony across time and space on the power of conscience to sense and respond to moral issues. With good reason to accept that generally speaking (absent warping or deadening), it is testifying to truth. Namely, we are under moral government of the force of OUGHT, or duty of care to the right, the fair etc. And the consequences of that, we should face. KFkairosfocus
January 29, 2015
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HR, Pardon, but that is a strawman caricature of what WJM argued (which is far more like Brent’s three men metaphor in 20 above . . .
KF, pardon, but you are full of it. WJM. Made a very clear argument: All subjectivists act in fact unknowingly act as objectivists (so they are deluded) and the only people that truly are subjectivists are sociopaths. Do you disagree? Can you in fact be a subjectivist without being a sociopath? If so, your disagreement is with WJM and not with me.hrun0815
January 29, 2015
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DDD at 43 cites Job 38:35: "“Can you send out lightning bolts, and they go? Do they report to you: “Here we are”?” Yet,,, We Don't Actually Know What Triggers Lightning Strikes - Aug. 2013 Excerpt: Lightning is a natural electrical discharge—but scientists are still scratching their heads trying to figure out what triggers it. http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/new_scientist/2013/08/lightning_strikes_what_causes_lightning_is_a_mystery_could_it_be_cosmic.html hmmm, wonder if they will ever get to the 'unmoved mover' argument? Aquinas’ First Way – (The First Mover – Unmoved Mover) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qmpw0_w27As Aquinas’ First Way 1) Change in nature is elevation of potency to act. 2) Potency cannot actualize itself, because it does not exist actually. 3) Potency must be actualized by another, which is itself in act. 4) Essentially ordered series of causes (elevations of potency to act) exist in nature. 5) An essentially ordered series of elevations from potency to act cannot be in infinite regress, because the series must be actualized by something that is itself in act without the need for elevation from potency. 6) The ground of an essentially ordered series of elevations from potency to act must be pure act with respect to the casual series. 7) This Pure Act– Prime Mover– is what we call God. http://egnorance.blogspot.com/2011/08/aquinas-first-way.html Or to put it much more simply: "The ‘First Mover’ is necessary for change occurring at each moment." Michael Egnor – Aquinas’ First Way Lightning - Inspirational Poem In a windswept field the clouds build The sky grows dark, the air smells of coming rain As a nervous world stews in fearful anticipation Fearful anticipation for the promised Wonders, Of the new promised Wonders from the Ancient Ones hand Yes, the mighty foretold Wonders Soon to be seen across the land Could this be THE prophesied cleansing rain? Will He finally wash away all our tears and pain? Lightning cracks the sky open,,, For a brief instance the glorious white light of His kingdom is revealed,,, The tear in the sky threatens to rip the sky asunder The world roars applause with a loud sustained thunder An applause for the glorious light we have glimpsed From the world of light promised past death’s weakened fence Yes, of the glory promised to our every fiber and sense Another longer bolt of lightning teases us yet again And again the world with thunder shouts an encouraging reply Yes, Encouraging the glory of paradise to swallow this world whole Yet, it is followed by a long low grumble for being teased yet again For being teased yet again with the coming of a glorious paradise A long low grumble yearning jealously for the promise that is so soon near But alas, the sky closes behind the lightning bolt’s rip All the world is still as it was The clouds open up, The rain pours down But it is not really raining, the clouds are really crying Crying for the world must face yet another day Face yet another day of being one step short of paradise. Massive Lightning Strikes in HD Slow Motion https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYguAFZwhpUbornagain77
January 29, 2015
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HR, Pardon, but that is a strawman caricature of what WJM argued (which is far more like Brent's three men metaphor in 20 above . . . i.e. if one were to live by the implications of a view that people like Ruse and Wilson posit as implying our sense of ought is illusory, then it opens the door to nihilism, but in fact people usually try to live based on the binding nature of ought even as they debate otherwise . . . ), where it is also tangential to this thread's proper focus. There is a worldviews foundation level reductio challenge on the table, and you are now going into a second day of distractive arguments rather than cogently address it. That in itself tells the astute onlooker something significant and not in your favour. KFkairosfocus
January 29, 2015
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Brent, no-one has called HR delusional. What has been called under question is the evolutionary materialist frame of thought on morality, responsible freedom and responsible rationality; on grounds of implied reductio. To show that such a frame is reasonable, adherents need to show why those challenges fail; challenges that BTW go back on record as far as Plato in The Laws Bk X. Note, in the OP leading spokesmen for evolutionary materialism and scientism were cited on the matter. KF
Yes, that's right. Nobody has called me delusional. And I have not said so either. WJM however very clearly stated that I and all other subjectivists are either delusional or sociopaths.hrun0815
January 29, 2015
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F/N3: I also think a reply by Johnson to Lewontin in Nov 1997, is highly relevant:
For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. [[Emphasis original] We might more accurately term them "materialists employing science." And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence. That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) "give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose." . . . . The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [[Emphasis added.] [[The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]
In short, there is a lurking worldview level issue that is driving much of the surface level debates. Until it is faced, the latter will not budge. KFkairosfocus
January 29, 2015
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F/N 2: Plato, in The Laws Bk X, has some'at to say, too; with emphasis on thought and society:
Ath. . . .[The avant garde philosophers and poets, c. 360 BC] say that fire and water, and earth and air [i.e the classical "material" elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art . . . [such that] all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only [ --> that is, evolutionary materialism is ancient and would trace all things to blind chance and mechanical necessity] . . . . [Thus, they hold] that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.- [ --> Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT.] These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might [ --> Evolutionary materialism -- having no IS that can properly ground OUGHT -- leads to the promotion of amorality on which the only basis for "OUGHT" is seen to be might (and manipulation: might in "spin")], and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [ --> Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality "naturally" leads to continual contentions and power struggles influenced by that amorality], these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is,to live in real dominion over others [ --> such amoral factions, if they gain power, "naturally" tend towards ruthless abuse], and not in legal subjection to them.
2350 years ago, these same issues were on the table. KFkairosfocus
January 29, 2015
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F/N: Since it seems useful, here on is the line of thought that starting 30+ years ago, led me to conclude that evolutionary materialism is staring at a serious reductio issue . . . one I don't find a cogent materialist answer to, and one that I find cropping up directly or indirectly in major statements by leading advocates of same as I cited above. Let me clip a key part: __________ >> 12 --> Some materialists then suggest that consciousness is an “emergent” property of matter in the brain in action; one dependent on that matter for its existence and behaviour. But, "emergence" is itself immediately problematic: is "emergence" a euphemism for "Voila: poof!" . . . i.e "magic"? 13 --> Some materialists go further and suggest that mind is more or less a delusion. For instance, Sir Francis Crick is on record, in his 1994 The Astonishing Hypothesis: . . . that "You", your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. As Lewis Carroll's Alice might have phrased: "You're nothing but a pack of neurons." This hypothesis is so alien to the ideas of most people today that it can truly be called astonishing. 14 --> Philip Johnson has replied that Sir Francis should have therefore been willing to preface his works thusly: "I, Francis Crick, my opinions and my science, and even the thoughts expressed in this book, consist of nothing more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules." Johnson then acidly commented: “[[t]he plausibility of materialistic determinism requires that an implicit exception be made for the theorist.” [[Reason in the Balance, 1995.] 15 --> In short, it is at least arguable that self-referential absurdity is the dagger pointing to the heart of evolutionary materialistic models of mind and its origin . . . . . . . This issue can be addressed at a more sophisticated level [[cf. Hasker in The Emergent Self (Cornell University Press, 2001), from p 64 on, e.g. here as well as Reppert here and Plantinga here (briefer) & here (noting updates in the 2011 book, The Nature of Nature)], but without losing its general force, it can also be drawn out a bit in a fairly simple way: a: Evolutionary materialism argues that the cosmos is the product of chance interactions of matter and energy, within the constraint of the laws of nature; from hydrogen to humans by undirected chance and necessity. b: Therefore, all phenomena in the universe, without residue, are determined by the working of purposeless laws of chance and/or mechanical necessity acting on material objects, under the direct or indirect control of happenstance initial circumstances. (This is physicalism. This view covers both the forms where (a) the mind and the brain are seen as one and the same thing, and those where (b) somehow mind emerges from and/or "supervenes" on brain, perhaps as a result of sophisticated and complex software looping. The key point, though is as already noted: physical causal closure -- the phenomena that play out across time, without residue, are in principle deducible or at least explainable up to various random statistical distributions and/or mechanical laws, from prior physical states. Such physical causal closure, clearly, implicitly discounts or even dismisses the causal effect of concept formation and reasoning then responsibly deciding, in favour of specifically physical interactions in the brain-body control loop; indeed, some mock the idea of -- in their view -- an "obviously" imaginary "ghost" in the meat-machine. [[There is also some evidence from simulation exercises, that accuracy of even sensory perceptions may lose out to utilitarian but inaccurate ones in an evolutionary competition. "It works" does not warrant the inference to "it is true."] ) c: But human thought, clearly a phenomenon in the universe, must now fit into this meat-machine picture. So, we rapidly arrive at Crick's claim in his The Astonishing Hypothesis (1994): what we subjectively experience as "thoughts," "reasoning" and "conclusions" can only be understood materialistically as the unintended by-products of the blind natural forces which cause and control the electro-chemical events going on in neural networks in our brains that (as the Smith Model illustrates) serve as cybernetic controllers for our bodies. d: These underlying driving forces are viewed as being ultimately physical, but are taken to be partly mediated through a complex pattern of genetic inheritance shaped by forces of selection [["nature"] and psycho-social conditioning [["nurture"], within the framework of human culture [[i.e. socio-cultural conditioning and resulting/associated relativism]. And, remember, the focal issue to such minds -- notice, this is a conceptual analysis made and believed by the materialists! -- is the physical causal chains in a control loop, not the internalised "mouth-noises" that may somehow sit on them and come along for the ride. (Save, insofar as such "mouth noises" somehow associate with or become embedded as physically instantiated signals or maybe codes in such a loop. [[How signals, languages and codes originate and function in systems in our observation of such origin -- i.e by design -- tends to be pushed to the back-burner and conveniently forgotten. So does the point that a signal or code takes its significance precisely from being an intelligently focused on, observed or chosen and significant alternative from a range of possibilities that then can guide decisive action.]) e: For instance, Marxists commonly derided opponents for their “bourgeois class conditioning” — but what of the effect of their own class origins? Freudians frequently dismissed qualms about their loosening of moral restraints by alluding to the impact of strict potty training on their “up-tight” critics — but doesn’t this cut both ways? Should we not ask a Behaviourist whether s/he is little more than yet another operantly conditioned rat trapped in the cosmic maze? And -- as we saw above -- would the writings of a Crick be any more than the firing of neurons in networks in his own brain? f: For further instance, we may take the favourite whipping-boy of materialists: religion. Notoriously, they often hold that belief in God is not merely cognitive, conceptual error, but delusion. Borderline lunacy, in short. But, if such a patent "delusion" is so utterly widespread, even among the highly educated, then it "must" -- by the principles of evolution -- somehow be adaptive to survival, whether in nature or in society. And so, this would be a major illustration of the unreliability of our conceptual reasoning ability, on the assumption of evolutionary materialism. g: Turning the materialist dismissal of theism around, evolutionary materialism itself would be in the same leaky boat. For, the sauce for the goose is notoriously just as good a sauce for the gander, too. h: That is, on its own premises [[and following Dawkins in A Devil's Chaplain, 2004, p. 46], the cause of the belief system of evolutionary materialism, "must" also be reducible to forces of blind chance and mechanical necessity that are sufficiently adaptive to spread this "meme" in populations of jumped- up apes from the savannahs of East Africa scrambling for survival in a Malthusian world of struggle for existence. Reppert brings the underlying point sharply home, in commenting on the "internalised mouth-noise signals riding on the physical cause-effect chain in a cybernetic loop" view: . . . let us suppose that brain state A, which is token identical to the thought that all men are mortal, and brain state B, which is token identical to the thought that Socrates is a man, together cause the belief that Socrates is mortal. It isn’t enough for rational inference that these events be those beliefs, it is also necessary that the causal transaction be in virtue of the content of those thoughts . . . [[But] if naturalism is true, then the propositional content is irrelevant to the causal transaction that produces the conclusion, and [[so] we do not have a case of rational inference. In rational inference, as Lewis puts it, one thought causes another thought not by being, but by being seen to be, the ground for it. But causal transactions in the brain occur in virtue of the brain’s being in a particular type of state that is relevant to physical causal transactions. [[Emphases added. Also cf. Reppert's summary of Barefoot's argument here.] i: The famous geneticist and evolutionary biologist (as well as Socialist) J. B. S. Haldane made much the same point in a famous 1932 remark: "It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” [["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209. (Highlight and emphases added.)] j: Therefore, though materialists will often try to pointedly ignore or angrily brush aside the issue, we may freely argue: if such evolutionary materialism is true, then (i) our consciousness, (ii) the "thoughts" we have, (iii) the conceptualised beliefs we hold, (iv) the reasonings we attempt based on such and (v) the "conclusions" and "choices" (a.k.a. "decisions") we reach -- without residue -- must be produced and controlled by blind forces of chance happenstance and mechanical necessity that are irrelevant to "mere" ill-defined abstractions such as: purpose or truth, or even logical validity. (NB: The conclusions of such "arguments" may still happen to be true, by astonishingly lucky coincidence — but we have no rational grounds for relying on the “reasoning” that has led us to feel that we have “proved” or "warranted" them. It seems that rationality itself has thus been undermined fatally on evolutionary materialistic premises. Including that of Crick et al. Through, self-reference leading to incoherence and utter inability to provide a cogent explanation of our commonplace, first-person experience of reasoning and rational warrant for beliefs, conclusions and chosen paths of action. Reduction to absurdity and explanatory failure in short.) k: And, if materialists then object: “But, we can always apply scientific tests, through observation, experiment and measurement,” then we must immediately note that -- as the fate of Newtonian Dynamics between 1880 and 1930 shows -- empirical support is not equivalent to establishing the truth of a scientific theory. For, at any time, one newly discovered countering fact can in principle overturn the hitherto most reliable of theories. (And as well, we must not lose sight of this: in science, one is relying on the legitimacy of the reasoning process to make the case that scientific evidence provides reasonable albeit provisional warrant for one's beliefs etc. Scientific reasoning is not independent of reasoning.) l: Worse, in the case of origins science theories, we simply were not there to directly observe the facts of the remote past, so origins sciences are even more strongly controlled by assumptions and inferences than are operational scientific theories. So, we contrast the way that direct observations of falling apples and orbiting planets allow us to test our theories of gravity. m: Moreover, as Harvard biologist Richard Lewontin reminds us all in his infamous January 29, 1997 New York Review of Books article, "Billions and billions of demons," it is now notorious that: . . . It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel [[materialistic scientists] to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. [[And if you have been led to imagine that the immediately following words justify the above, kindly cf. the more complete clip and notes here.] n: Such a priori assumptions of materialism are patently question-begging, mind-closing and fallacious. o: More important, to demonstrate that empirical tests provide empirical support to the materialists' theories would require the use of the very process of reasoning and inference which they have discredited. p: Thus, evolutionary materialism arguably reduces reason itself to the status of illusion. But, as we have seen: immediately, that must include “Materialism.” q: In the end, it is thus quite hard to escape the conclusion that materialism is based on self-defeating, question-begging logic. r: So, while materialists -- just like the rest of us -- in practice routinely rely on the credibility of reasoning and despite all the confidence they may project, they at best struggle to warrant such a tacitly accepted credibility of mind and of concepts and reasoned out conclusions relative to the core claims of their worldview. (And, sadly: too often, they tend to pointedly ignore or rhetorically brush aside the issue.) >> __________ Let's watch to see how this is handled; or, not. KFkairosfocus
January 29, 2015
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G2, pardon, but there is more than enough warrant provided above. Please, just take time to look. KFkairosfocus
January 29, 2015
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KF And we see these false arguments everyday..... Relativism being the key contributor, how I pray that it would be purged from the minds of men!Andre
January 29, 2015
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Andre, I like the rendering in GNB, which brings out a key facet:
3 It is true that we live in the world, but we do not fight from worldly motives. 4 The weapons we use in our fight are not the world's weapons but God's powerful weapons, which we use to destroy strongholds. We destroy false arguments; 5 we pull down every proud obstacle that is raised against the knowledge of God; we take every thought captive and make it obey Christ . . .
Spiritual warfare is in large part a thought- and motive- battle against the fallacious and the embedded flawed assumption and/or agenda that roadblocks evidence warranting knowledge of God. KFkairosfocus
January 29, 2015
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DDD
“Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ”
Clearly you have no clue what this actually means do you? Aren't you glad that there is not a small video screen on your forehead that constantly plays your thoughts? Our minds can imagine all sorts of things, it can dream up stuff you never dreamed of! In this verse Paul tells us to cast down all thoughts that are against the knowledge of Christ and bring them into captivity. In other words, take charge of your thoughts and control them instead of letting them control you. Some people are controlled by intimidating thoughts that don't even exist in reality, they perceive those thoughts to be real so to them they are. Reality is reality not our perception of things and our thoughts that are not controlled by the Spirit may or may not be reality. We are what we think, so what are your thought processes based upon? Your philosophy is your prophesy! What you think about yourself and your life will come to pass. "For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he;"(Proverbs 23:7). Don't allow unfounded suspicions, low self esteem and mental concoctions to ruin your life because it can!! Take charge of your life by programming your mind by putting the positive, powerful Word of God into your mind. "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."(Romans 12:2) If you want your life to be different, then you must begin to think differently. According to this verse, Paul says that renewing your mind will transform your life. The sooner you get started, the sooner your life will get better. Pastor Scott L. BoatnerAndre
January 29, 2015
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DDD It is indeed dangerous to cherry pick versus for an agenda! I was puzzled when you picked this;
“Can you send out lightning bolts, and they go? Do they report to you: “Here we are”?”
Surely you knew that we don't know! http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/new_scientist/2013/08/lightning_strikes_what_causes_lightning_is_a_mystery_could_it_be_cosmic.htmlAndre
January 29, 2015
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