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William Lane Craig’s video on the objectivity of morality and the linked reality of God

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Here:

[youtube OxiAikEk2vU]

In this video, Dr Craig argues that we have good reason to accept the objectivity of ought, and from that we see that there is a credible ground of such, God.

In slightly more details, if one rejects the objectivity of the general sense of OUGHT as governing our behaviour, we are implying a general delusion.

Where, as there are no firewalls in the mind . . . a general delusion undermines the general credibility of knowledge and rationality.

And in practice even those who most passionately argue for moral subjectivity live by the premise that moral principles such as fairness, justice, doing good by neighbour etc are binding. That is, there is no good reason to doubt that reality.

OUGHT, credibly, is real and binding.

But if OUGHT is real, it has to be grounded in a foundational IS in the cosmos.

After centuries of debate, there is still only one serious candidate, the inherently good Creator-God, a necessary and maximally great being.

Essentially, the being we find referred to in the US Declaration of Independence of 1776 (which also shows the positive, liberating historic impact of such a view):

When . . . it becomes necessary for one people . . . to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, [cf Rom 1:18 – 21, 2:14 – 15], that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. –That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security . . . .

(Readers may wish to see this discussion in context as well.)

By way of contrast, on the evolutionary materialist perspective, we may for instance see Dawkins, in  as reproduced in “God’s Utility Function” in Sci Am in 1995:

Nature is not cruel, only pitilessly indifferent. This lesson is one of the hardest for humans to learn. We cannot accept that things might be neither good nor evil, neither cruel nor kind, but simply callous: indifferent to all suffering, lacking all purpose . . . . In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won’t find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but pitiless indifference . . . . DNA neither cares nor knows. DNA just is. And we dance to its music. [[ “God’s Utility Function,” Sci. Am. Aug 1995, pp. 80 – 85.]

. . . or (adding overnight), Michael Ruse & E. O. Wilson in the 1991 form of the essay, “The Evolution of Ethics”

The time has come to take seriously the fact [[–> This is a gross error at the outset, as macro-evolution is a theory (an explanation) about the unobserved past of origins and so cannot be a fact on the level of the observed roundness of the earth or the orbiting of planets around the sun etc.] that we humans are modified monkeys, not the favored Creation of a Benevolent God on the Sixth Day . . . We must think again especially about our so-called ‘ethical principles.’ The question is not whether biology—specifically, our evolution—is connected with ethics, but how. As evolutionists, we see that no justification of the traditional kind is possible. Morality, or more strictly our belief in morality, is merely an adaptation put in place to further our reproductive ends. Hence the basis of ethics does not lie in God’s will  … In an important sense, ethics as we understand it is an illusion fobbed off on us by our genes to get us to cooperate. It is without external groundingEthics is illusory inasmuch as it persuades us that it has an objective reference. This is the crux of the biological position. [= evolutionary materialist philosophical premise, duly dressed up in a lab coat . . . ] Once it is grasped, everything falls into place. [Michael Ruse & E. O. Wilson, “The Evolution of Ethics,” Religion and the Natural Sciences: The Range of Engagement, , ed. J. E. Hutchingson, Orlando, Fl.:Harcourt and Brace, 1991.

. . . and Provine in his Darwin Day address at U. Tenn 1998:

Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent . . . . The first 4 implications are so obvious to modern naturalistic evolutionists that I will spend little time defending them. Human free will, however, is another matter. Even evolutionists have trouble swallowing that implication. I will argue that humans are locally determined systems that make choices. They have, however, no free will . . .

With Sir Francis Crick backing up in an inadvertent self-refutation:

. . . that “You”, your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. As Lewis Carroll’s Alice might have phrased: “You’re nothing but a pack of neurons.” [–> But Sir Francis, what does this imply about your own responsible freedom and ability to choose to think reasonably?] This hypothesis is so alien to the ideas of most people today that it can truly be called astonishing. [Cf. dramatisation of unintended potential consequences, here.]

So, it seems that if we are inclined to accept evolutionary materialist scientism and to reject God, we do end up in a want of foundation for morality. Which carries the onward implication of a general delusion and breakdown of the credibility of rational mindedness and responsible freedom.

Thus, reductio ad absurdum.

At least, that is how it looks from where I sit and type. Thoughts? (And if the thoughts are evolutionary materialistic, how do you ground credibility of mind and morals on such? For surely, blindly mechanical computation is not contemplation.) END

PS: I think it worth adding (Jan 29) a Koukl lecture:

[vimeo 9026899]

 

Comments
HR, I have to go off real world just now. I think you will see that reductio arguments have been a commonplace and have a well known response -- answer them. And no, to point out that there is a worldview foundation level challenge for evolutionary materialism is not to lock out listening to such ahead of time, it is to say, step up to the plate and answer a comparative difficulties challenge on factual adequacy, coherence and explanatory capability. If theism must answer to such, so must materialism, even when it wears a lab coat. And in that way, sauce, meet Gander not just Goose. Or, as Gramps' ghost just reminded me, every tub must stand on its own bottom. Here, on both answering the IS-OUGHT gap and grounding the credibility and capacity of mind to do so. KFkairosfocus
January 28, 2015
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Re #14:
What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. Stop whining.
At least somebody is honest about what is going on. I have the feeling that BA and KF actually disagree with you.hrun0815
January 28, 2015
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Barry, over at "The Skeptical Zone" (Thanks News) you are being accused of cowardice. They say you silently banned commentators and then ran off for a while. Please set them straight.DesignDetectiveDave
January 28, 2015
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HR, if an argument claims a reductio, you answer it on its merits, as was done by Plantinga on the problem of evils, cf here at 101 level. (And of course back when I was a student that reductio attempt argument was almost routine resort no 1 by atheists. As in sauce, meet Gander not just Goose.) KFkairosfocus
January 28, 2015
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hrun0815, "...dismiss all the people you disagree with offhand prior to the begin of a conversation." But this is exactly what the darwin faithful do all the time. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Stop whining.humbled
January 28, 2015
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hrun0815, are you going to do nothing but whine? Or do you have a response to KF’s challenge?
If a whole group of people is dismissed offhand on the outset I think I will stick to whining. How could I respond to KF's challenge?hrun0815
January 28, 2015
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AW, we do need to resolve whether we have sufficient responsible freedom to think and reason for ourselves, given say what Provine argued at U Tenn in 1998, and what Crick implied in his The Astonishing Hypothesis in 1994. Not to mention Carter's point on the hard problem of consciousness. Haldane put his finger on a serious problem. KFkairosfocus
January 28, 2015
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HR: There are many subjectivists who are not evolutionary materialists (who BTW need to address point no 1 on no firewall), and if there is a foundational self referential incoherence in that worldview then via ex falso quodlibet, it defeats itself then it needs to be faced. Shooting at the messenger does not help the case. BA: I don't see an actual linked vid . . . [--> clip there now] KFkairosfocus
January 28, 2015
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hrun0915's non-response to KF's challenge is of a piece with many of the materialist responses we get on these pages. And those put me in mind of Miracle Max in this clip (starting at 3:25). Barry Arrington
January 28, 2015
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hrun0815, are you going to do nothing but whine? Or do you have a response to KF's challenge?Barry Arrington
January 28, 2015
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I realize that there are 'issues on the table' as you say. But that does not mean that a person who is delusional and unable to contemplate can add anything to maybe shed light on said issue. That's exactly what it means to dismiss all the people you disagree with offhand prior to the begin of a conversation.hrun0815
January 28, 2015
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if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true.
in order to post this comment I had to correctly complete the equation "4 x three = ?" If the thinking of the one who asked this was determined wholly by the motion of atoms in his/her brain, then what caused the atoms in my brain to correctly come up with the missing value so that I could post this comment? Was it not something other than the motion of atoms in my brain that caused them to come up with the correct answer?awstar
January 28, 2015
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HR, there is an issue on the table, with a second level issue, self referential incoherence of evolutionary materialism. The focal thing is not the man but the issue. Let's hear your answer, to Haldane in the first instance. Or, perhaps, you would prefer to address this from Reppert (expanding on C S Lewis):
. . . let us suppose that brain state A, which is token identical to the thought that all men are mortal, and brain state B, which is token identical to the thought that Socrates is a man, together cause the belief that Socrates is mortal. It isn’t enough for rational inference that these events be those beliefs, it is also necessary that the causal transaction be in virtue of the content of those thoughts . . . [[But] if naturalism is true, then the propositional content is irrelevant to the causal transaction that produces the conclusion, and [[so] we do not have a case of rational inference. In rational inference, as Lewis puts it, one thought causes another thought not by being, but by being seen to be, the ground for it. But causal transactions in the brain occur in virtue of the brain’s being in a particular type of state that is relevant to physical causal transactions.
And, even that is secondary to the main issue, from Craig. KF PS, added: The issue is, double reductio ad absurdum. It is not answered by trying to project to the man, but by providing worldview level grounds for your view. That is, as gramps used to say, every tub must stand on its own bottom.kairosfocus
January 28, 2015
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Re #4: Actually, yes, KF. Everybody who has read your posts in the past (or even read your second sentence I clipped) knows that you are not actually asking a question. You know that it is in fact impossible to ground the credibility of minds and morals on evolutionary materialistic thoughts. So, you are playing the same stupid 'steers and queers' plow so adeptly used by WJM when he asserted that all subjectivists are either delusional or sociopaths. You are dismissing people who disagree with you as either deluded about how they supposedly ground their thoughts or as not having the ability to consider any question in the first place. I am more and more realizing that this is a common debate strategy here at UD. In your words, this should give you some food for thought.hrun0815
January 28, 2015
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HR, no, just how do you ground general credibility of mind and rationality as well as responsible freedom on evolutionary materialist premises? In case you miss a key allusion, part of what I have in mind is this from famed evolutionary theorist JBS Haldane:
"It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” ["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209.]
That is a quite serious issue and it needs a serious and substantial answer, not a rhetorical dismissal based on projecting closed mindedness to design thinkers and supporters. KFkairosfocus
January 28, 2015
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F/N: I thought it of help to design thinkers in general, that this video -- which is a bit of philosophy -- should be headlined at UD. KFkairosfocus
January 28, 2015
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(And if the thoughts are evolutionary materialistic, how do you ground credibility of mind and morals on such? For surely, blindly mechanical computation is not contemplation.)
In other words: If you don't agree with me I will dismiss anything you say offhand.hrun0815
January 28, 2015
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Looks like trouble with embeds this morning . . . after a spot of trouble, fixed.kairosfocus
January 28, 2015
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