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Strong emergence principle emerges in biology

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Things happen that can’t be explained without design:

Complex, multigenic biological traits are shaped by the emergent interaction of proteins being the main functional units at the molecular scale. Based on a phenomenological approach, algorithms for quantifying two different aspects of emergence were introduced (Wegner and Hao in Progr Biophys Mol Biol 161:54-61, 2021) describing: (i) pairwise reciprocal interactions of proteins mutually modifying their contribution to a complex trait (denoted as weak emergence), and (ii) formation of a new, complex trait by a set of n ‘constitutive’ proteins at concentrations exceeding individual threshold values (strong emergence). The latter algorithm is modified here to take account of protein redundancy with respect to a complex trait (‘full redundancy’). Irreducibility is considered a necessary and sufficient criterion for strong biological emergence; if one constitutive protein is missing, or its concentration drops below the threshold the trait is lost. A definition based on ‘unpredictability’ is dismissed, because this criterion is irrelevant for the evolution of a complex trait, and apparent unpredictability may rather reflect our basic deficits in understanding unless we can provide an unequivocal proof for it. The phenomenological approach advocated here allows to identify hidden rules according to which strongly emergent traits may be organized. This is of high value for understanding the evolution of complex traits which seems to require the saltational advent of all constitutive proteins ‘in one turn’ to arrive at a functional trait providing for an improved fitness of the organism. Rather than being a purely random process, it may be guided by fundamental structural principles.

Hao Z, Liu J, Wu B, Yu M, Wegner LH. Strong Emergence in Biological Systems: Is It Open to Mathematical Reasoning? Acta Biotheor. 2021 Dec;69(4):841-856. doi: 10.1007/s10441-021-09423-1. Epub 2021 Aug 31. PMID: 34463940.

Not that they put it that way.

The paper is open access.

Comments
Jerry - That's quite a thread. I appreciate the reference. I honestly have no memory of taking part in it. It seems -- and the participants may take issue with me -- that we had no defenders of emergence as an explanatory principle. We had people say that it was never intended as an explanation, and we got comments that it was no worse than ID. But as far as strong support for emergence, it wasn't there. I guess that answers my question. I asked if I was missing anything. If I am, I have plenty of company. About weak and strong emergence, Wikipedia has a little to say but it's enigmatic. I thought weak emergence was something like where water has properties that are not possessed by hydrogen and oxygen. Although the constituents have differences, the emergence of water can still be explained in terms of the interactions of the constituents. That would make weak emergence a category of explanation. Emergence is treated as something to be explained rather than an explanation in itself. I think though that Wikipedia is saying that this sort of thing is not emergence in any sense of the word. I can't say as that I can fathom the distinction as they present it.hnorman42
May 2, 2022
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There’s not a lot to say except that there seems to be a problem at the very core of the definition of strong emergence
Here is a discussion of the term "emergence" from a year ago. It has been discussed many time before that. Essentially it is a BS term that has some meaning in physics but not Evolution. The discussion from a year ago includes some of the usual suspects including you. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/emergence-and-the-dormitive-principle I was not aware of the concept of "strong" vs "weak" emergence. It always seemed to me that the term "emergent" relevant to Evolution meant something appeared without explanation and that it was somehow the result of constituents. It is essentially a begging the question fallacy.jerry
May 2, 2022
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Joe writes:
Anyone crucified wouldn’t be able to support their weight with their legs once they are dead and still hanging there.
Hence my "brake their legs" reference.Fred Hickson
May 2, 2022
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All of the corona variants are still corona viruses. And just to clarify. Anyone crucified wouldn't be able to support their weight with their legs once they are dead and still hanging there.
You’re priceless, Joe.
And you are still clueless.ET
May 1, 2022
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Jerry - There's not a lot to say except that there seems to be a problem at the very core of the definition of strong emergence - at least as far as I can see. It's supposed to represent behavior in a system that is not explainable in terms of its constituent parts. So that tells us what it's not explainable in terms of. So what is it explainable in terms of? Is strong emergence just a license to turn anything that we don't understand into an axiom? Weak emergence may be a different case. The murmuring of starlings requires more than one starling but I believe it's explainable in terms of how an individual starling acts in a group. If that's not the case I would have similar objections as well.hnorman42
May 1, 2022
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Perhaps at a more opportune time.
Why don’t you lay out your case. It would infinitely improve the discussion.jerry
May 1, 2022
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My apologies, gentlemen. Perhaps at a more opportune time.hnorman42
May 1, 2022
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I can see weak emergence being a meaningful concept but it represents a category of explanation rather than an explanation itself.
This is a thread about arm length. I’m being facetious but accurate.jerry
May 1, 2022
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Perhaps the elongated forearms in the Shroud image were evidence of a strongly emergent trait?Seversky
May 1, 2022
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WRT the the OP - Am I missing something? Is strong emergence an explanatory principle defined purely by its inability to explain? I can see weak emergence being a meaningful concept but it represents a category of explanation rather than an explanation itself.hnorman42
May 1, 2022
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And how do coronaviruses store their genes? In... RNA sequences!!!Fred Hickson
May 1, 2022
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Omicron?Fred Hickson
May 1, 2022
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Not to mention Covid variants.Fred Hickson
May 1, 2022
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Andrew Well, it's a matter of fact that, let's take humans as an example, there are perhaps 175 mutations on average from parent to child.Fred Hickson
May 1, 2022
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SA, Mine too. Also I know that physical Shroud copies/models have been wrapped around physical human models created from live people laying down, and the image on the shroud matches up. Andrewasauber
May 1, 2022
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Just to clarify, anyone suspended by the wrists in a cruciform position is unable to breathe. (Brake their legs). The victim being able or forced to support their weight with their feet prolongs the agony as well as reducing the load on arm joints.Fred Hickson
May 1, 2022
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FH
You are not making much sense in comment 41.
You're claiming that copying errors can create new functional code.Silver Asiatic
May 1, 2022
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My arms reach that far while lying down.Silver Asiatic
May 1, 2022
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You're priceless, Joe. ;)Fred Hickson
May 1, 2022
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There is an articulated joint at the elbows, too. Maybe try taking an anatomy class.ET
May 1, 2022
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Regarding arm length, it's the forearms on the shroud image that appear disproportionately long. Not sure how shoulder dislocation is relevantFred Hickson
May 1, 2022
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@ Sandy You are not making much sense in comment 41. Still wondering about your field of expertise.Fred Hickson
May 1, 2022
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SA, when your arms are the ropes used to hang you, slowly. A demonic cruelty. KFkairosfocus
May 1, 2022
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FH, nor is the cricket cup. Etc, indeed not even the Chobham Armour on a tank. KFkairosfocus
May 1, 2022
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My comment was simply that a protective cup isn’t complete protection from a slap shot.
It isn't supposed to be "complete protection". It protects what needs to be protected, though.ET
May 1, 2022
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KF: JH, if they don’t, they should.
No, all hockey players wear a protective cup. My comment was simply that a protective cup isn’t complete protection from a slap shot. As anyone who played hockey would know.JHolo
May 1, 2022
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due to copying errors.
I didn't know the biologists decoded the multiples languages of the cell otherwise how in the world would they know how to detect errors in genes from "edited" genes ? If you don't know greek would you know how to detect an error in greek? If you don't know too much about cell would you think there is a lot of junk? Of course the ignorance is knowledge ...until is exposed. :))Sandy
May 1, 2022
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Belfast
yet smart-alecs jump in to say their hands don’t cover their groin while lying on their back, hint, hint!!
Exactly. Good hints for anybody who missed it. Aside from the distraction itself, dislocation of the shoulder is a known effect since the arms had to be stretched to match pre-drilled holes.Silver Asiatic
May 1, 2022
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Wow. Natural selection includes the genetic variation. Ernst Mayr says that is the first step of natural selection. And natural selection is a process of elimination. Fred is totally clueless about the concept.ET
May 1, 2022
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FH, the selection isolates the variation and preserves it - it does not cause variation.
Of course selection does not produce variation. Goodness me! For long-time critics of evolutionary theory, UD regulars seem perversely unable to grasp the process they are criticizing. Variation arises in genomes when genes are duplicated, typically at meiosis, commonly due to copying errors. The selection process results in phenotypes that are "fitter" in their niche and achieve greater reproductive success becoming more common in the population. Fixation, where one allele at a particular locus exists at 100% and others disappear, is not adding to variation but reducing it. If no new variations arrived via mutations, etc, selection would lead to inbreeding and extinction.Fred Hickson
May 1, 2022
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