Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

The “quine dilemma” of evolution

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Sorry if this post is a bit for computer programmers, anyway I trust that also the others can grasp the overall picture.

Evolutionists claim that what it takes to evolution to work is simply “a populations of replicators, random variations on them, and a competition for survival or resources”.
Today we will try to partially layout how to simulate on computer such process. First off, we need the replicators, i.e. digital programs able to self-reproduce. In informatics jargon, a computer program able to self-reproduce, i.e. to produce as output a copy of its source code is called a “quine”. Therefore in a sense a quine is a little, minimal digital “bio-cell”. You can write the code of a quine in any programming language. Also with the same language you can do that in various ways. Here I will examine a quine written in Perl language by Tushar Samant, it is but one of many examples.

Its source code is the following:

$a=’X‘; print map “\$a=’$a’; $_, q($_)”, q(print map “\$a=’$a’;$_, q($_)”)

If you have Perl installed on your computer you can easily verify that if you run this script, it prints itself on the screen. Eventually if you redirect the output to a file, such file will be a perfect copy of its generator file.

Von Neumann mathematically proved that a self-reproducing automaton must contain a symbolic description or representation of itself and a constructor (see my previous post). Also our quine contains a symbolic description of itself (the code on the right, the quoted “q(print map…)”), while the code on the left (the first “print map”) is the operation on the description (the constructor), to output the whole quine. Some say that, this way, the quine necessarily works somehow in “auto-referential” mode. (About “quines”, self-reference, automata, meta-languages and artificial intelligence I suggest reading the book by Douglas Hofstadter, “Gödel, Escher, Bach”, 1979.)

Why in the source code I have highlighted in blue color a “neutral” zone, in red color a “critical zone”? This distinction holds not only for this quine, rather for almost all quines (and in a sense even for almost all computer programs or any system in general). Random variations in the red zone destroy the self-reproducing function. Differently, most variations in the neutral zone don’t cause malfunctioning. If, for example, we change the value of the $a variable from “X” to, say, “fb_M+hF6.oia7-jj” we get a bigger script, but it continues to self-replicate.

Now, let’s imagine that we want to develop a small evolution simulator on our computer. We could set an initial number of those quines and make them self-reproduce to obtain a growing population. Eventually we could apply random variations, generation by generation, on their neutral zones. Then we have to write in our evolution simulator a “fitness function” working in this somewhat digital environment. A first simple idea could be to establish that only the bigger quines survive. However such evolution simulation would be very poor. In fact, the variations inside the digital organisms would be trivial, sure no new organization arises. Moreover the fitness function is poorly specified, because what matters is only the quantitative size of the quines, how much they are “fat” so to speak. Certainly no really different organism arise.

Therefore, if we want to test the above evolutionist claim, we could imagine a more complicated fitness function, based on the concept of predation, just a suggestion. The organisms that are somehow able to “eat” parts of other organisms are more fit to survive. They are the “predators”, while the organisms eaten are the “victims”, who necessarily die. This would be similar to what happens in nature per Darwinian selection. Also we could think of a selection based on a competition for resources.

At this point the question is: what variations are necessary to transform our initial quines into evolved predators or resource seekers? No random variation can produce such increase in organization, because, as seen above, almost all random variations in the red zone are fatal and the variations on the blue zone are neutral. However to transform our quines in predators or resource seekers is not impossible. But one has to increase the organization of the critical zone in substantial manner. New source code has to be written in the red zone. Changes in the blue zone are useless. The predation macro function needs sub-functions: movement, enemy detection, fight… Analogously, the resource seeker function needs: movement, resource detection, import of resources…

To keep our discourse simple, as an example, I modified the initial quine with a simple, very rudimental, movement sub-function (which serves to both the higher functions): now the replicator can perform a random walk on a grid with steps of 1 unit in 8 different directions. To do that I used the $p variable to store the X/Y information (where the replicator stays on the grid at a given time). The result could be something like this:

$a=’X‘;$p=q(500_500);$e=q(($x, $y) = split /_/, $p;$x+=int(rand(2))*(-1)**int(rand(2)); $y+=int(rand(2))*(-1)**int(rand(2));$p =~ s/\d+_\d+/${x}_${y}/;);eval $e;print map “\$a=’$a’; \$p=’$p’; \$e=’$e’; eval ‘$e’;$_, q($_)”, q(print map ” \$a=’$a’;\$p=’$p’;\$e=’$e’; eval ‘$e’; $_, q($_)”)

With this modification the automaton continues to be able to self-replicate, and — if introduced in a suitable evolution program simulator (which I have not programmed thus far) — it moves on a grid. Notice however that both the constructor and the symbolic description are changed.

All that leads us directly to what I call the “quine dilemma” of unguided evolution. If random variations are harmless or neutral (blue zone) they create no new organization. If evolution has to create complex functional novelties, new organization, it must operate in the red zone and necessarily become potentially destructive. To speak of “dilemma” here is euphemistic. This dilemma is worse than Hamletic, because de facto is a show-stopper for evolution. The quine dilemma holds in computer programming, as in biology. In fact, in the lab you can crash the cellular replication by introducing random variations in a cell. Needless to say, this dilemma has a lot to do with the experimental fact that unicellulars grown in the lab haven’t yet evolved in … frogs or butterflies (e.g. Lenski’s work).

I like to cite Larry Wall, the computer scientist who invented Perl, who sums it up best: “The potential for greater good goes right along with the potential for greater evil”. Larry said that in the context of software development, but mutatis mutandis it holds also in general, biology included. In short, no power without risk.

I said “biology included” because the objection by evolutionists might be that in biological replicators there is no “quine” problem, because the information for new organization (which random variation applies on) is decoupled from the information for construction. This claim is fully illogical because the information for new organization is the information for construction, what else. An organism is constructed according to assembly instructions. If you want a different organism you have to modify them. No decoupling is possible between instructions and organism because the latter is the direct product (bit by bit) of the former. No decoupling is possible between cause and effect.

To sum up, the initial claim that evolution needs only “a populations of replicators, random variations on them and a competition” is only an hope, because just in simple replicators it crashes against basic conceptual obstacles, one of which is indeed the “quine” dilemma.

Comments
Maybe this might help fifthmonarchyman and others understand the commonsense logic of theories: A scientific theory explains how something works. Therefore shrugging of shoulders (instead of explaining how something works) only explains why they have no scientific theory. Also see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_operationGary S. Gaulin
January 30, 2015
January
01
Jan
30
30
2015
08:02 PM
8
08
02
PM
PDT
Zac says By definition. I say Then you don't understand what I mean by a complete theory. A complete theory of how my cheese burger was made does not have to explain the dreams of the fry cook. It merely has to explain completely how my cheese burger came to be. The consciousness of the fry-cook is beside the point. You say. Great! What’s the next step? I say, quote: Do you really not know? I have an oracle I want to understand it as much as I can. It's simple. The problem is you rule out the oracle and choose to remain ignorant of it's characteristics. You say, Well, that’s very nice. But you haven’t proposed a testable model that explains anything. I say, Do you really have this limited an imagination. Must I spoon feed this stuff too you. Just think about all the different possible Oracles there could be. Each of these would have testable entailments. Again off the very top of my head. Remember Gould's Drunkard's walk. We could hypothesize that that all things being equal the Oracle tends to push the drunk toward the curb or visa versa. So when we come to gaps in the algorithm we would expect less complexity or visa versa. Surely you can think of tests of your own similar to this one. The important thing is we would not be stymied in our discovery efforts until we could explain every single step materialistically as we are now. I'm sensing that further discussion is not going to be productive. So unless you have something new other than the tired old "it can't possibly be Science" stuff, Then you can have the last word. peace peacefifthmonarchyman
January 30, 2015
January
01
Jan
30
30
2015
03:47 PM
3
03
47
PM
PDT
fifthmonarchyman: Again is this an unwritten law or just a personal preference? By definition. fifthmonarchyman: Is archeology not science unless we can crack the mystery of consciousness? Archaeology is a science, but it's not a theory, much less a complete theory. fifthmonarchyman: We will not go any further into the nature of this oracle than to say that it cannot be a machine. Why not? fifthmonarchyman: You are going to have to provide evidence for this one From the definition, "The problem can be of any complexity class." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle_machine fifthmonarchyman: The replicators are part of the algroythym itself. Quibbling. Here's a reference to a computer oracle from Dembski et al. http://evoinfo.org/publications/efficient-per-query-information-extraction-from-a-hamming-oracle/ fifthmonarchyman: The replicators are part of the algroythym itself. In evolutionary algorithms, the environment and its relationship to the replicators is considered separate from the replicators. The only information that flows between them has to be limited to differential reproductive success. fifthmonarchyman: The recognition of the oracle is not the end of the process it’s just the beginning. Great! What's the next step? fifthmonarchyman: 1) What attributes must the oracle have 2) What other kinds of problems might be solvable by this particular Oracle 3) Are there tendency in the products of the Oracle? Is one outcome more likely than another. Well, that's very nice. But you haven't proposed a testable model that explains anything.Zachriel
January 30, 2015
January
01
Jan
30
30
2015
02:28 PM
2
02
28
PM
PDT
Zac says, It’s not a complete theory if an explanatory entity is outside of investigation. I say, Again is this an unwritten law or just a personal preference? Is archeology not science unless we can crack the mystery of consciousness? you say, Computable as in the usual mathematical definition of computable, Turing computability. I say, quote: We will not go any further into the nature of this oracle than to say that it cannot be a machine. end quote: Alan Turing you say, In an evolutionary algorithm, it’s called an oracle because information about the workings of the oracle are not available to the replicators. I say, You are going to have to provide evidence for this one It's not an oracle unless it's workings are not available to us the observer. The replicators are part of the algroythym itself. you say, You can always section off the unknown, say it’s an oracle, and call it a day, but it’s scientifically sterile. I say, The recognition of the oracle is not the end of the process it's just the beginning. The alternative is to continue to ignore a perfectly viable solution because you don't like the implications. Talk about scientifically sterile You say, Propose an oracle theory that is testable and we can discuss. I say, There all all kinds of testable hypothesis we can explore. off the top of my head 1) What attributes must the oracle have 2) What other kinds of problems might be solvable by this particular Oracle 3) Are there tendency in the products of the Oracle? Is one outcome more likely than another. etc etc etc peacefifthmonarchyman
January 30, 2015
January
01
Jan
30
30
2015
02:10 PM
2
02
10
PM
PDT
fifthmonarchyman: the purpose of the oracle is to yield a complete theory of course It's not a complete theory if an explanatory entity is outside of investigation. fifthmonarchyman: When you say computable you mean in theory right? Computable as in the usual mathematical definition of computable, Turing computability. fifthmonarchyman: If the Oracle is not a black box it is not an Oracle In an evolutionary algorithm, it's called an oracle because information about the workings of the oracle are not available to the replicators. fifthmonarchyman: here is a quote for you: That's lovely. You forgot the application. fifthmonarchyman: I’m frustrated by the exclusion of entities with explanatory utility for purely metaphysical reasons. You can always section off the unknown, say it's an oracle, and call it a day, but it's scientifically sterile. Propose an oracle theory that is testable and we can discuss.Zachriel
January 30, 2015
January
01
Jan
30
30
2015
06:23 AM
6
06
23
AM
PDT
Suppose you have an oracle that only answers yes or no. Is there a question too complex to be answered by chipping away with yes or no questions?Petrushka
January 30, 2015
January
01
Jan
30
30
2015
04:59 AM
4
04
59
AM
PDT
fifthmonarchyman says:
I’m frustrated by the exclusion of entities with explanatory utility for purely metaphysical reasons.
I’m frustrated by all the hype over a "better theory" that UD does not even want to discuss or further develop. The only interest I found was in promoting an imaginary scientific theory that leaves a void in science to fill with scripture. As far as science is concerned that is very wrong.Gary S. Gaulin
January 30, 2015
January
01
Jan
30
30
2015
04:38 AM
4
04
38
AM
PDT
Zac says, It depends on your purpose, of course. I say, the purpose of the oracle is to yield a complete theory of course you say, Computable oracles are used in many applications, including evolutionary algorithms. I say, When you say computable you mean in theory right? If the Oracle is not a black box it is not an Oracle you say, You’re taking a mathematical model and apparently trying to apply it to science somehow. I say, here is a quote for you: quote: The miracle of the appropriateness of the language of mathematics for the formulation of the laws of physics is a wonderful gift which we neither understand nor deserve. We should be grateful for it and hope that it will remain valid in future research and that it will extend, for better or for worse, to our pleasure, even though perhaps also to our bafflement, to wide branches of learning. end quote: Eugene Wigner you say, It just seems you prefer to fill your gaps with Oracle-brand metaphysical paste. I say, No I want a better theory. I'm frustrated by the exclusion of entities with explanatory utility for purely metaphysical reasons. It seems you prefer an inferior theory simply because is does not offend your metaphysical sensibilities. peacefifthmonarchyman
January 29, 2015
January
01
Jan
29
29
2015
05:41 PM
5
05
41
PM
PDT
fifthmonarchyman: Right, the benefits of an Oracle lie in it being incomputable. No. An oracle may or may not be a computable function. fifthmonarchyman: If we could break it down to a step by step process we would defeat the whole purpose that it serves in the first place. It depends on your purpose, of course. Computable oracles are used in many applications, including evolutionary algorithms. You're taking a mathematical model and apparently trying to apply it to science somehow. It just seems you prefer to fill your gaps with Oracle-brand metaphysical paste.Zachriel
January 29, 2015
January
01
Jan
29
29
2015
05:12 PM
5
05
12
PM
PDT
Zac says, Just to clarify, the machine isn’t incomputable because there’s an oracle, but because the oracle is defined as incomputable. I say Right, the benefits of an Oracle lie in it being incomputable. If we could break it down to a step by step process we would defeat the whole purpose that it serves in the first place. This obvious fact has nothing to do with what is going on behind the curtain. What is going on back there is inaccessible to us if we want an oracle. peacefifthmonarchyman
January 29, 2015
January
01
Jan
29
29
2015
05:03 PM
5
05
03
PM
PDT
fifthmonarchyman, that was helpful information. I still though don't understand how that applies to how intelligence and intelligent cause works. I know of no black-box or ever found internal workings that are not (technology willing) assessable to scientific study. If a model for what is inside the black-box is incomputable then there is no model to base a theory upon.Gary S. Gaulin
January 29, 2015
January
01
Jan
29
29
2015
04:55 PM
4
04
55
PM
PDT
fifthmonarchyman: Is this an unwritten rule or is it just a preference on your part? It's an observation. Theories are formed by simplifying a messy reality, primarily by generalizing about a limited domain. fifthmonarchyman: Even though the values of functions based on oracle machines cannot be computed (since they are by definition incomputable), it is still possible to reason about which problems are reducible to oracles and which oracles they are reducible to. Posed another way, if a programmer had an oracle for a given problem, what other problems could be solved? Just to clarify, the machine isn't incomputable because there's an oracle, but because the oracle is defined as incomputable.Zachriel
January 29, 2015
January
01
Jan
29
29
2015
04:53 PM
4
04
53
PM
PDT
zac says All scientific theories are incomplete because they are, at best, approximations. I say, Is this an unwritten rule or is it just a preference on your part? Gary S Gaulin says, Please elaborate. I say, check it out from here http://www.blythinstitute.org/images/data/attachments/0000/0041/bartlett1.pdf Quote: A Turing Oracle (hereafter oracle) is a black-box function (ie., no implementation description is given) which solves an incomputable function and yields its answer in a single step. An oracle machine is a combination of a normal computational system which also has access to an oracle. If the oracle is well-defined in its abilities,it can be used to reason about the process even if the process as a whole is incomputable. An oracle machine, then, is a regular machine (i.e.,a normal computable function) which is connected to an oracle (i.e., the function has access to an operation which is incomputable). Alan Turing describes the oracle machine as follows: Let us suppose that we are supplied with some unspecified means of solving number theoretic problems; a kind of oracle as it were. We will not go any further into the nature of this oracle than to say that it cannot be a machine. With the help of the oracle we could form a new kind of machine (call them o-machines), having as one of its fundamental processes that of solving a given number theoretic problem. (Turing, 1939) Even though the values of functions based on oracle machines cannot be computed (since they are by definition incomputable), it is still possible to reason about which problems are reducible to oracles and which oracles they are reducible to. Posed another way, if a programmer had an oracle for a given problem, what other problems could be solved? :end quote peacefifthmonarchyman
January 29, 2015
January
01
Jan
29
29
2015
04:34 PM
4
04
34
PM
PDT
fifthmonarchyman:
Blackbox is not defined as untestable. It means the internal workings are not assessable to us.
Please elaborate. What exactly is "not assessable to us" and how did you scientifically test that conclusion?Gary S. Gaulin
January 29, 2015
January
01
Jan
29
29
2015
03:21 PM
3
03
21
PM
PDT
fifthmonarchyman: It means the internal workings are not assessable to us. We might be able to surmise some aspects of the internal workings from its output, or make reasonable predictions about the output based on past performance. Please restate your point, if you had one. fifthmonarchyman: “repeating a famous quote more than three times is a sure sign your argument is bankrupt”- We asked whether you understood the quote, but you didn't answer. Meanwhile, you ask questions that are answered by reference to the quote. fifthmonarchyman: was it a complete explanation? All scientific theories are incomplete because they are, at best, approximations. fifthmonarchyman: The Point is that to be complete a theory of planetary formation does not need to explain all phenomena just those it purports to explain. All scientific theories are incomplete because they are, at best, approximations. fifthmonarchyman: Are you actually claiming that in order to be scientific a theory must fail to explain what it sets out to explain? All scientific theories are incomplete because they are, at best, approximations.Zachriel
January 29, 2015
January
01
Jan
29
29
2015
02:44 PM
2
02
44
PM
PDT
Zac said, If you using the term oracle to mean a blackbox, then it is defined as untestable. I say, Blackbox is not defined as untestable. It means the internal workings are not assessable to us. We test lots things without seeing their inner-workings. Are you claiming that psychology and sociology and archeology are not science because human conscientiousness is a black-box? you say, Is this a case of you redefining terminology again? I say, Exploring implications is not the same as redefining terminology. If we can't use terms in new contexts then language is useless You say, You’re testing the output, not the oracle. I say, Just like in psychology and sociology and archeology among other things. you say, “All models are wrong, but some are useful.” — George E. P. Box I say "repeating a famous quote more than three times is a sure sign your argument is bankrupt"- Fifthmonarchyman ;-) peacefifthmonarchyman
January 29, 2015
January
01
Jan
29
29
2015
02:32 PM
2
02
32
PM
PDT
fifthmonarchyman: was it a complete explanation? All models are wrong ... fifthmonarchyman: Who said it is beyond testing? If you using the term oracle to mean a blackbox, then it is defined as untestable. Is this a case of you redefining terminology again? It's as if we have to keep a list of your idiosyncratic vocabulary. fifthmonarchyman: Hypothesis: the oracle is not Zac. Hypothesis: the oracle does not violate natural law No way to tell. fifthmonarchyman: Hypothesis: results explained by the oracle can not confused for random noise. You're testing the output, not the oracle. fifthmonarchyman: The Point is that to be complete a theory of planetary formation does not need to explain all phenomena just those it purports to explain. All models are wrong ... fifthmonarchyman: Are you actually claiming that in order to be scientific a theory must fail to explain what it sets out to explain? “All models are wrong, but some are useful.” — George E. P. BoxZachriel
January 29, 2015
January
01
Jan
29
29
2015
02:09 PM
2
02
09
PM
PDT
Zac said, Lots of things were once unexplained, then scientific explanations were later found. I say, was it a complete explanation? you say, An oracle is ad hoc and beyond testing, so has no scientific utility. I say, Who said it is beyond testing? I can think of all kinds of tests. For example off the top of my head. Hypothesis: the oracle is not Zac Hypothesis: the oracle does not violate natural law Hypothesis: results explained by the oracle can not confused for random noise. I'm just getting started Who said the oracle is ad hoc? It seems perfectly generalizable to other problems from physics to AI. Zac says, While there are robust theories of planetary formation, they are not complete. I say, Agreed but you are apparently missing the point. The Point is that to be complete a theory of planetary formation does not need to explain all phenomena just those it purports to explain. Are you actually claiming that in order to be scientific a theory must fail to explain what it sets out to explain? That is quite a claim There is no rule that a scientific theory must be incomplete unless you define Scientific as algorithmic. A theory that "saves more of the phenomena" is to be preferred. This should not be controversial peacefifthmonarchyman
January 29, 2015
January
01
Jan
29
29
2015
02:00 PM
2
02
00
PM
PDT
fifthmonarchyman: Thus far no scientific theory has been able to explain consciousness does that mean that no scientific theory can do so? No. Lots of things were once unexplained, then scientific explanations were later found. fifthmonarchyman: Thus far no scientific theory has been able to unify relativity and QM does that mean that no scientific theory can do so? No. Lots of things were once unexplained, then scientific explanations were later found. Good example, though, of how theories are limited in their domains. In this case, where they would overlap, they are in contradiction. fifthmonarchyman: A theory does not have to explain every phenomena to be complete. It only has to explain what it attempts to explain completely. “All models are wrong, but some are useful.” — George E. P. Box fifthmonarchyman: A complete theory of planetary formation does not have to explain protein folding. Good example. While there are robust theories of planetary formation, they are not complete. fifthmonarchyman: the Oracle increases the fit to the evidence. As such it is not extraneous by definition. An oracle is ad hoc and beyond testing, so has no scientific utility.Zachriel
January 29, 2015
January
01
Jan
29
29
2015
05:45 AM
5
05
45
AM
PDT
Zac says. Every scientific model ever proposed is incomplete. I say, Thus far no scientific theory has been able to explain consciousness does that mean that no scientific theory can do so? Thus far no scientific theory has been able to unify relativity and QM does that mean that no scientific theory can do so? come on Zac use you head Zac says, The “Theory of Everything” refers to the unification of physics, but would not, in fact, be a theory of every phenomena. I Say. A theory does not have to explain every phenomena to be complete. It only has to explain what it attempts to explain completely. A complete theory of planetary formation does not have to explain protein folding. use your head You say, Theories are judged by their fit to the evidence. Extraneous entities are vacuous. I say, the Oracle increases the fit to the evidence. As such it is not extraneous by definition. peacefifthmonarchyman
January 29, 2015
January
01
Jan
29
29
2015
03:50 AM
3
03
50
AM
PDT
fifthmonarchyman: Evidence please? Every scientific model ever proposed is incomplete. fifthmonarchyman: Were the physicists who looked for a “theory of everything” not doing science? The "Theory of Everything" refers to the unification of physics, but would not, in fact, be a theory of every phenomena. fifthmonarchyman: There is no scientific reason that a theory must be incomplete is there? Models are always incomplete because they only concern certain aspects of the world with limitations on their domain of applicability. fifthmonarchyman: A theory can be wrong and complete or correct and incomplete. Do you not understand “All models are wrong, but some are useful”? fifthmonarchyman: Is the theory that explains less more likely to be true in Zac’s world? Theories are judged by their fit to the evidence. Extraneous entities are vacuous.Zachriel
January 28, 2015
January
01
Jan
28
28
2015
04:27 PM
4
04
27
PM
PDT
Fifth: I recommend Wagner's Arrival of the Fittest. Perhaps you can borrow Joe's copy. He doesn't seem to be using it.Petrushka
January 28, 2015
January
01
Jan
28
28
2015
03:55 PM
3
03
55
PM
PDT
Zac says, Scientific models are always incomplete. I say, Evidence please? Were the physicists who looked for a "theory of everything" not doing science? zac quotes All models are wrong I say. Wrong and complete are not antonyms. A theory can be wrong and complete or correct and incomplete. There is no scientific reason that a theory must be incomplete is there? Is the theory that explains less more likely to be true in Zac's world? peacefifthmonarchyman
January 28, 2015
January
01
Jan
28
28
2015
03:17 PM
3
03
17
PM
PDT
Hey Petrushka, Do you know about my game? It's a long story! It's been my experience that a "solution" usually can be found for any particular feature in a string. Such solutions often come with a cost that shows up in other places however. So it's possible that we can narrow the search in one area only to expand it in another. Bottom line is we don't ever get rid of the Oracle we just move it around. peacefifthmonarchyman
January 28, 2015
January
01
Jan
28
28
2015
02:44 PM
2
02
44
PM
PDT
fifthmonarchyman: An Algorithmic theory can provide detail but not completeness. Scientific models are always incomplete. “All models are wrong, but some are useful.” — George E. P. Box fifthmonarchyman: A non-Algorithmic theory can provide completeness but not detail. Scientific models are always incomplete. “All models are wrong, but some are useful.” — George E. P. BoxZachriel
January 28, 2015
January
01
Jan
28
28
2015
01:57 PM
1
01
57
PM
PDT
A hybrid model like ID that has an Oracle in addition to an algorithmic process can provide the detail of an algorithm plus completeness.
The interesting thing in biology is whether the "oracle" is connected. That is, can you search functional space by making only small steps (mutations. If there are always functional neighbors, then positions are not isolated islands. In other words, for any given gene sequence, there will always be functionally equivalent variants (alleles). If so, Dembski's search is not 10^150 or 10^500. it is just the space one mutation away. And if a neighbor sequence is reached, it will have new neighbors.Petrushka
January 28, 2015
January
01
Jan
28
28
2015
01:38 PM
1
01
38
PM
PDT
Me_Thinks No. I am saying we can’t model all the variables of evolution as we can’t capture the inputs of all the variables. I say, Suppose we quantified all the information that can be modeled with evolution and subtracted that information from the the information in life as a whole. This should be a relatively easy task if that what can be modeled has already been modeled Would what is left be random noise or would it contain interesting patterns? Would there be any way to even in principle to know these un-capture-able inputs were not the result of Design decisions? Peacefifthmonarchyman
January 28, 2015
January
01
Jan
28
28
2015
01:20 PM
1
01
20
PM
PDT
Zac says That doesn’t mean a non-algorithmic model wouldn’t be a better fit. I say An Algorithmic theory can provide detail but not completeness. A non-Algorithmic theory can provide completeness but not detail. A hybrid model like ID that has an Oracle in addition to an algorithmic process can provide the detail of an algorithm plus completeness. Such a model is obviously a better fit than an algroythym alone peacefifthmonarchyman
January 28, 2015
January
01
Jan
28
28
2015
01:09 PM
1
01
09
PM
PDT
Let me phrase my point a different way. Can you name or list something about evolution that Michael Behe says is possible that you say is impossible. Behe says common descent is possible.Petrushka
January 28, 2015
January
01
Jan
28
28
2015
10:52 AM
10
10
52
AM
PDT
I understand your position. It seems to be that OOL is not possible without intervention. You are not addressing evolution, or if you are, you are simply wrong. I do not need to appeal to materialists on this. Behe will do.Petrushka
January 28, 2015
January
01
Jan
28
28
2015
10:29 AM
10
10
29
AM
PDT
1 2 3 4 5

Leave a Reply