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The “quine dilemma” of evolution

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Sorry if this post is a bit for computer programmers, anyway I trust that also the others can grasp the overall picture.

Evolutionists claim that what it takes to evolution to work is simply “a populations of replicators, random variations on them, and a competition for survival or resources”.
Today we will try to partially layout how to simulate on computer such process. First off, we need the replicators, i.e. digital programs able to self-reproduce. In informatics jargon, a computer program able to self-reproduce, i.e. to produce as output a copy of its source code is called a “quine”. Therefore in a sense a quine is a little, minimal digital “bio-cell”. You can write the code of a quine in any programming language. Also with the same language you can do that in various ways. Here I will examine a quine written in Perl language by Tushar Samant, it is but one of many examples.

Its source code is the following:

$a=’X‘; print map “\$a=’$a’; $_, q($_)”, q(print map “\$a=’$a’;$_, q($_)”)

If you have Perl installed on your computer you can easily verify that if you run this script, it prints itself on the screen. Eventually if you redirect the output to a file, such file will be a perfect copy of its generator file.

Von Neumann mathematically proved that a self-reproducing automaton must contain a symbolic description or representation of itself and a constructor (see my previous post). Also our quine contains a symbolic description of itself (the code on the right, the quoted “q(print map…)”), while the code on the left (the first “print map”) is the operation on the description (the constructor), to output the whole quine. Some say that, this way, the quine necessarily works somehow in “auto-referential” mode. (About “quines”, self-reference, automata, meta-languages and artificial intelligence I suggest reading the book by Douglas Hofstadter, “Gödel, Escher, Bach”, 1979.)

Why in the source code I have highlighted in blue color a “neutral” zone, in red color a “critical zone”? This distinction holds not only for this quine, rather for almost all quines (and in a sense even for almost all computer programs or any system in general). Random variations in the red zone destroy the self-reproducing function. Differently, most variations in the neutral zone don’t cause malfunctioning. If, for example, we change the value of the $a variable from “X” to, say, “fb_M+hF6.oia7-jj” we get a bigger script, but it continues to self-replicate.

Now, let’s imagine that we want to develop a small evolution simulator on our computer. We could set an initial number of those quines and make them self-reproduce to obtain a growing population. Eventually we could apply random variations, generation by generation, on their neutral zones. Then we have to write in our evolution simulator a “fitness function” working in this somewhat digital environment. A first simple idea could be to establish that only the bigger quines survive. However such evolution simulation would be very poor. In fact, the variations inside the digital organisms would be trivial, sure no new organization arises. Moreover the fitness function is poorly specified, because what matters is only the quantitative size of the quines, how much they are “fat” so to speak. Certainly no really different organism arise.

Therefore, if we want to test the above evolutionist claim, we could imagine a more complicated fitness function, based on the concept of predation, just a suggestion. The organisms that are somehow able to “eat” parts of other organisms are more fit to survive. They are the “predators”, while the organisms eaten are the “victims”, who necessarily die. This would be similar to what happens in nature per Darwinian selection. Also we could think of a selection based on a competition for resources.

At this point the question is: what variations are necessary to transform our initial quines into evolved predators or resource seekers? No random variation can produce such increase in organization, because, as seen above, almost all random variations in the red zone are fatal and the variations on the blue zone are neutral. However to transform our quines in predators or resource seekers is not impossible. But one has to increase the organization of the critical zone in substantial manner. New source code has to be written in the red zone. Changes in the blue zone are useless. The predation macro function needs sub-functions: movement, enemy detection, fight… Analogously, the resource seeker function needs: movement, resource detection, import of resources…

To keep our discourse simple, as an example, I modified the initial quine with a simple, very rudimental, movement sub-function (which serves to both the higher functions): now the replicator can perform a random walk on a grid with steps of 1 unit in 8 different directions. To do that I used the $p variable to store the X/Y information (where the replicator stays on the grid at a given time). The result could be something like this:

$a=’X‘;$p=q(500_500);$e=q(($x, $y) = split /_/, $p;$x+=int(rand(2))*(-1)**int(rand(2)); $y+=int(rand(2))*(-1)**int(rand(2));$p =~ s/\d+_\d+/${x}_${y}/;);eval $e;print map “\$a=’$a’; \$p=’$p’; \$e=’$e’; eval ‘$e’;$_, q($_)”, q(print map ” \$a=’$a’;\$p=’$p’;\$e=’$e’; eval ‘$e’; $_, q($_)”)

With this modification the automaton continues to be able to self-replicate, and — if introduced in a suitable evolution program simulator (which I have not programmed thus far) — it moves on a grid. Notice however that both the constructor and the symbolic description are changed.

All that leads us directly to what I call the “quine dilemma” of unguided evolution. If random variations are harmless or neutral (blue zone) they create no new organization. If evolution has to create complex functional novelties, new organization, it must operate in the red zone and necessarily become potentially destructive. To speak of “dilemma” here is euphemistic. This dilemma is worse than Hamletic, because de facto is a show-stopper for evolution. The quine dilemma holds in computer programming, as in biology. In fact, in the lab you can crash the cellular replication by introducing random variations in a cell. Needless to say, this dilemma has a lot to do with the experimental fact that unicellulars grown in the lab haven’t yet evolved in … frogs or butterflies (e.g. Lenski’s work).

I like to cite Larry Wall, the computer scientist who invented Perl, who sums it up best: “The potential for greater good goes right along with the potential for greater evil”. Larry said that in the context of software development, but mutatis mutandis it holds also in general, biology included. In short, no power without risk.

I said “biology included” because the objection by evolutionists might be that in biological replicators there is no “quine” problem, because the information for new organization (which random variation applies on) is decoupled from the information for construction. This claim is fully illogical because the information for new organization is the information for construction, what else. An organism is constructed according to assembly instructions. If you want a different organism you have to modify them. No decoupling is possible between instructions and organism because the latter is the direct product (bit by bit) of the former. No decoupling is possible between cause and effect.

To sum up, the initial claim that evolution needs only “a populations of replicators, random variations on them and a competition” is only an hope, because just in simple replicators it crashes against basic conceptual obstacles, one of which is indeed the “quine” dilemma.

Comments
Petrushka #76
Chemistry contains the potential to self organize.
Chemistry contains the potential to self organize an organism as a set of Lego pieces contains the potential to self organize the Internet network, ie zero. The potential to create organization (with all its formalisms, information processing, functions, tasks, signal communication...) can come only from intelligence, the source of any formalism. Open any textbook of chemistry (inorganic and organic), you find molecules, reactions and basic laws to combine them. All the above organization formalisms are missing, both potentially and actually. Here EugeneS has just explained that better than me.niwrad
January 28, 2015
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I'm not familiar with Kauffman. What I'm referring to is an experiment that could be replicated by anyone having a computer and able to write a simple program emulating logic gates. The question isn't about the origin of complexity, but about the connectedness of configurations. The challenge has been to see whether random testing of the immediate neighborhood can proceed indefinitely.Petrushka
January 28, 2015
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Petrushka, Are you referring to what Kauffman did? He did not succeed with his 'edge of chaos' because logic comes first. There must be something that makes choices which gate to use, which one to throw away. Even if it is connected, this does not move you one bit further. You still need intelligence of some form. Rules =/= constraints. The crux of intelligence is decision making. In chemistry or physics, there is NO decision making ability hidden whatsoever. To state the opposite leads to a contradiction because the laws of nature cannot decide. At the level of physics/chemistry there is no propensity to making choices. Tilt the chessboard to see if gravity can play.EugeneS
January 28, 2015
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fifthmonarchyman: In simple terms, the Church–Turing thesis states that a function on the natural numbers is computable in an informal sense Yes, and there's reason to believe that natural evolution is sufficiently granular that algorithmic evolution approximates natural evolution well enough to provide insights into the process. That doesn't mean a non-algorithmic model wouldn't be a better fit. fifthmonarchyman: If a process is algorithmic it can be modeled It doesn't mean it can be modeled as a practical matter. As already pointed out, we can't even model protein folding. fifthmonarchyman: Therefore “evolution” is a necessarily incomplete explanation for the grand scope of life. And gravity theory is an incomplete explanation. So? That doesn't mean it's not a valid theory. "All models are wrong, but some are useful." — George E. P. BoxZachriel
January 28, 2015
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fifthmonarchyman @ 75
Tell that to Zac
Zac will certainly not agree with the truncated statement !
Are you conceding that any materialistic explanation will always and necessarily be incomplete??
No. I am saying we can't model all the variables of evolution as we can't capture the inputs of all the variables. What can be modeled has been modeled.Me_Think
January 28, 2015
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Chemistry contains the potential to self organize. The question of whether this is designed is above my pay grade. Regarding the questionof whether fuctional sequences are endlessly connectable by single nucleotide substitutions is a decidable property of chemistry. Wagner says yes; Behe says no. Oddly enough, it's aproperty shared by logic circuits. Connect 16 or more logic gates -- AND, OR and NOT -- together in an arbitrary wiring, and you can replace them all without changing the output, by changing just one element at a time. The function space is connected.Petrushka
January 28, 2015
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me_thinks says, Yes. Of-course, I say, Tell that to Zac you say but only if you are able to bring in all variables affecting evolution (or any process, for that matter). I say. Are you conceding that any materialistic explanation will always and necessarily be incomplete?? You say, How can you possibly compute all long ranging temporal environmental variables affecting evolution ? I say, You can't IMO. Therefore "evolution" is a necessarily incomplete explanation for the grand scope of life. What percentage of life would you think can be deemed to forever elude explanation by an "evolutionarily" model 10% 50%? peacefifthmonarchyman
January 28, 2015
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fifthmonarchyman @ 73,
If a process is algorithmic it can be modeled
Yes. Of-course, but only if you are able to bring in all variables affecting evolution (or any process, for that matter). How can you possibly compute all long ranging temporal environmental variables affecting evolution ? Whatever could be modeled has been modeled (Eg: Check out Avida)Me_Think
January 28, 2015
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me_think asks How is this relevant to modelling all/some aspects of evolution ? I say, If a process is algorithmic it can be modeled Peacefifthmonarchyman
January 28, 2015
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Me_Think, You are greatly mistaken. It just means that installed molecular logic is at play. Chemotaxis is a wonderful example of preloaded intelligence. It is more complex than you think and can't be causally reduced just to chemistry. Although it utilizes it. Just like a television set utilizes the properties of electro-margnetic fields but in the entirety of its function cannot be reduced to those properties. Genuine decisions are made between multiple physico-chemically indeterminate states and by definition a bona fide decision is not reduced to chemistry. Whatever is explained by physics or chemistry alone cannot be classified as 'decision' as it is determined by law. In contrast, if you see in your experiments that something truly makes decisions, it merely means that this phenomenon causally traces back to intelligence. You are not seeing the woods for the trees.EugeneS
January 28, 2015
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69 Andre @ 69
So chemicals do not obey the laws of nature, instead they yearn for truth?
It is the opposite. You don't need brains for complicated pathways and 'decisions'. Simple chemical and pressure based taxis will do. It doesn't bode well for 'mind is outside the body' ID scienceMe_Think
January 28, 2015
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fifthmonarchyman @ 68
In simple terms, the Church–Turing thesis states that a function on the natural numbers is computable in an informal sense (i.e., computable by a human being using a pencil-and-paper method, ignoring resource limitations) if and only if it is computable by a Turing machine.
How is this relevant to modelling all/some aspects of evolution ?Me_Think
January 28, 2015
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Me_Think
There is thus amazing control and ‘decision’ making just by chemicals.
So chemicals do not obey the laws of nature, instead they yearn for truth? That's not good for your position as a materialist. Just sayin.....Andre
January 28, 2015
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zac says. Saying not all aspects of evolution can be modeled doesn’t mean they are or are not algorithmic. I say. quote: In simple terms, the Church–Turing thesis states that a function on the natural numbers is computable in an informal sense (i.e., computable by a human being using a pencil-and-paper method, ignoring resource limitations) if and only if it is computable by a Turing machine. and, To establish that a function is computable by Turing machine, it is usually considered sufficient to give an informal English description of how the function can be effectively computed, and then conclude "By the Church–Turing thesis" that the function is Turing computable (equivalently partial recursive). end quote: from here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church%E2%80%93Turing_thesis peacefifthmonarchyman
January 28, 2015
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EugeneS @ 66,
If you mean the emergence of true novelty i.e. new function, control, you are wrong.
A single cell Slime Mold (Physarum polycephalum) can take decisions , solve mazes, replicate Japan rail network etc based on slime trails, by chemo-taxis and protoplasmic streaming. There is thus amazing control and 'decision' making just by chemicals.Me_Think
January 28, 2015
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Petrushka, "Chemistry self-organizes". If you mean ordering phenomena, I am with you. However, ordering is trivial and it gives absolutely no novelty. If you mean the emergence of true novelty i.e. new function, control, you are wrong. Control presupposes measurement of state as part of working out control signals to steer the system towards a goal state with highest pragmatic utility. Control needs memory to store/retrieve representations of measurements of previous states. Measurement cannot be described by the laws of nature because in the centre of it lies semiosis, i.e. the problem of instantiation of the logical relation between the symbol and what it denotes. Consequently, it cannot be described by the laws of the dynamics of matter (whether in their physical or chemical form). Self-organization in the latter sense is a great misnomer regardless of the field, be in chemistry, physics, IT, biology, etc. Organization in the sense of function, control, formalism, pragmatic utility is impossible without intelligence. Physicality (the laws of nature) is inert to all that, it does not care if anything processes information to produce utility. It only provides some basic properties, the ground layer upon which intelligence can work further. Nothing non-trivial in the above sense is capable of emerging by itself just from physicality.EugeneS
January 28, 2015
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Petrushka #60
Chemistry self-organizes. Software does not.
Here we must be very clear. A system can develop organization only if such system contains a previous related potentiality of organization inside itself. A bird egg develops a bird because the egg contains the embryologic potentiality of developing the bird. This potentiality is something of very precise, bit by bit, as a computer program. This is the reason why a bird egg develops a bird, not a... crocodile and viceversa. If "chemistry self-organizes" -- as you say -- and must account for the organization of life, then chemistry must contain the correspondent potentiality of such organization. The science of chemistry, as known today, contains nothing of that. It is a science of laws. These laws explain many basic things, but per se don't explain the organization of life. Analogy: arithmetic alone doesn't explain the organization of a computer, because we must add countless layers of formalisms to pass from arithmetic to computers. Analogously, if chemistry has to explain life it must embodies all the countless layers of formalisms that are necessary to pass from such basic laws to life's organization. In other words, chemistry should potentially embody all the designs of life. In short, chemistry would become, not simply a science of laws, rather a science of designs. This would mean that the Designer frontloaded in "chemistry" (in my above advanced design sense) just from the beginning all the intelligence needed for developing all the life forms in time. This way the difference between "chemistry" and human software would be that the latter is developed step by step in time, while the former is a giant "bio-software" all installed just from the beginning, before time, by the Great Designer of the universe. That is logically necessary, because nothing comes from nothing and more doesn't come from less (in a previous comment I had spoken of "matter of principles"...).niwrad
January 28, 2015
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EugeneS #62 Thanks for your encouragements. It is persons like you who give us the strength to continue in our commitment to defend the truth, despite of all and until the end.niwrad
January 28, 2015
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This should help with definitions:
Algorithm From Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algorithm In mathematics and computer science, an algorithm is a self-contained step-by-step set of operations to be performed. Algorithms exist that perform calculation, data processing, and automated reasoning.
The algorithm for demonstrating intelligence was found to be a simple four step loop. Biological brains have multiple memory systems working in parallel, each modeled using the same algorithm. (1) Sensory bits Address Memory, which sends Action Data to Motors. (2) If Confidence=0 then Guess new Memory Action. (3) Run Motor Contol one more Time Step in time. (4) Adust and Save new Confidence in Memory Action. If action was successful its confidence increments, else decrements. GoTo (1) To be objective as possible I qualify intelligence by these four steps required to model it. It's then not a fuzzy subjective opinion that uses one of the various dictionary type generalizations, like the algorithm for intelligence the system has all needed for it to self-learn. You then know it's there, by the model doing awesome things that does in fact take real intelligence. It's not like with Darwinian models where what it models is not real chemistry, in this case biology most easily accomplishes the storing of long term information in a memory made of molecules and/or neurons instead of digital RAM chips. Either will learn to control a muscle system, which results in the same thing happening at the same time in either intelligence even where one is being algorithmically modeled in a computer. Whether or not consciousness exists does not matter, either way intelligence is still being demonstrated. It's one advantage to focusing on what makes it possible for even molecular systems to learn over time. Focsing on something else greatly complicates the modeling challenge with an algorithm that becomes ever greater in size and detail by needing to model chemistry. The algorithm for intelligence remains the same four steps, regardless of how complex the system is or what its components are made from. What makes the virtual living things virtually alive (and like we are) are the multiple levels of intelligence at work at the same time in the model. To demonstrate intelligence any one level can be modeled by itself, while what happens in biology is emergent from the behavior of matter that powers genetic level intelligence that all by itself causes emergence of cellular intelligence that all by itself causes emergence of multicellular intelligence. It would take more than a PC to model behavior of matter on up but (when available) modeling that way is made easy by only two of the steps of the algorithm required for modeling matter. Darwinian models attempt to model everything that is the result of a relatively simple underlying intelligent process, by using a Selection variable and others intelligence does not have. Dawinian models are then stuck being an outside view generalization, while intelligence based models are stuck being the inside view that greatly simplifies understanding of what is most important to know about how living things develop, how they work.Gary S. Gaulin
January 27, 2015
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Niwrad, Great stuff. Thanks. Absurdity raised to the Nth power. This is it. It's difficult to look for a black cat in a dark room, especially if it's not there. I like you posts very much.EugeneS
January 27, 2015
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Sorry but for me is fully incomprehensible that even a professional programmer believes that organization can arise without intelligent design Seems like some of the assumptions of your worldview need to be updated then.wd400
January 27, 2015
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The problem is you have no definition of self-organization. Chemistry self-organizes. Software does not. It is evident that you are not modelling chemistry.Petrushka
January 27, 2015
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wd400 #58
Your doubts are misplaced. I’m a computational biologist, and use python, R, and C++ in my work, pretty much every day.
Sorry but for me is fully incomprehensible that even a professional programmer believes that organization can arise without intelligent design. In my mind a software developer Darwinist is a living contradiction. (I don't want to be offensive though).niwrad
January 27, 2015
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Why? It helps to understand that increase of organization is never gratis because if you want to add a function into it you have to program new code representing the organization of the function. How does that help us understand biology? And in fact, how is that not trivially obvious without or without the quine. It is a simple concept but… something makes me doubt you are a programmer. Your doubts are misplaced. I'm a computational biologist, and use python, R, and C++ in my work, pretty much every day. FWIW, I'm aksing these questions because I really don't understand why certain programmers and engineers think they can talk about biology without referring to any actual biology (or indeed, knowing much biology). It's a curious phenomenon.wd400
January 27, 2015
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niwrad: It helps to understand that increase of organization is never gratis because if you want to add a function into it you have to program new code representing the organization of the function. The demonstration only applies to the one instance. You can't extrapolate from your particular example because it is not a model exhibiting general properties, but an instance specific to the particular non-biological environment.Zachriel
January 27, 2015
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wd400 #54
niwrad: "I continue to think that a quine, despite of its extreme simplicity and all its defects, can help to understand that increase of organization is never gratis." wd400: "Why? Nothing in your post seems to lead to this point."
Why? It helps to understand that increase of organization is never gratis because if you want to add a function into it you have to program new code representing the organization of the function. It is a simple concept but... something makes me doubt you are a programmer.niwrad
January 27, 2015
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niwrad: No reasonable person conflates the model with the thing being modeled, like no one conflates the symbol with the symbolized thing. Reasonable people can be confused. A computer simulation is a model which should be independent of the programming language. Your example is not a model, but an instance that is tied intimately to the particular computer environment, an environment which is very brittle to mutation.Zachriel
January 27, 2015
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My aim was only to show how a software replicator (an ultra simplified model/symbol of a bio replicator) behaves under random variations. So no biology. I showed that such model cannot get new functions without intelligent design Where? You evolutionists disagree and say that the biological reality behaves differently. Yup. I continue to think that a quine, despite of its extreme simplicity and all its defects, can help to understand that increase of organization is never gratis. Why? Nothing in your post seems to lead to this point.wd400
January 27, 2015
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Zachariel #52
However, you had claimed to be simulating the process on a computer. There are problems with your simulation, most important, you conflate the model with the thing being modeled. In other words, the algorithm should be independent of the programming environment.
No reasonable person conflates the model with the thing being modeled, like no one conflates the symbol with the symbolized thing. Computer simulations can be bad or good but obviously they never are the reality itself. Also -- say -- flight simulators, which actually are very good, have not the same reality of an airplane, by definition. I think that on this concept we all agree. My aim was only to show how a software replicator (an ultra simplified model/symbol of a bio replicator) behaves under random variations. I showed that such model cannot get new functions without intelligent design. You evolutionists disagree and say that the biological reality behaves differently. I continue to think that a quine, despite of its extreme simplicity and all its defects, can help to understand that increase of organization is never gratis.niwrad
January 27, 2015
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niwrad: I have no need of writing computer programs to know that random creation of organization is absurdity raised to the Nth power. Nowhere organization arises without intelligent design. It is a matter of principles. Glad you have principles. However, you had claimed to be simulating the process on a computer. There are problems with your simulation, most important, you conflate the model with the thing being modeled. In other words, the algorithm should be independent of the programming environment.Zachriel
January 27, 2015
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