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Adam and Eve and Bryan College: BioLogos strikes

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Some say 20% of faculty are leaving.

Students and faculty at Bryan are upset at a move last month by the school’s board of trustees to “clarify” that the college believes Adam and Eve were historical figures created directly by God. The board says the clarification does not change the school’s historical position on origins. But some at Bryan believe the board’s action was intended to force out professors who may be sympathetic to evolution, and think it was unfair to do so at a time when faculty contracts are due for renewal. …

An English professor at the school, Whit Jones, said the timing of the clarification had been a “puzzle” to many on faculty, but might have been sparked by recent writings from two of his colleagues: Kenneth Turner, a Bible professor, and Brian Eisenback, an associate professor of biology who graduated from Bryan College in 2002. Together, Turner and Eisenback are writing science education materials under a grant from The BioLogos Foundation, an organization in Grand Rapids, Mich., that promotes theistic evolution.

Theistic evolution, also called “evolutionary creation,” posits God used evolution to create biological life, including humans. Bryan’s original belief statement would seem to preclude theistic evolution for humans because it says mankind’s sin “incurred physical … death”—death being a necessary component for evolution.

Though some proponents of creationism or intelligent design would argue the case for evolution is flimsy, Turner and Eisenback wrote otherwise in a two-part article that appeared on the BioLogos website in December: “Macroevolution is robust and has multiple lines of evidence in support of it, including the fossil record and molecular biology. … The reality is that evolution is not a theory teetering on the edge of collapse. More.

The obvious problem, for a person who has been following the news stream, is that the fossil record and molecular biology so often do not agree. And “evolution” is not so much “a theory teetering on the edge of collapse” as a theory that doesn’t explain anything. That is, we say “evolved to do” when we really mean “does.”

Darwin’s followers, including BioLogians, get marks for their Darwinian piety, talking this way.

Laszlo BenczeBut Laszlo Bencze comments:

Apparently some former graduates of Bryan College are writing a science curriculum that will cover the full spectrum of views from hard core evolution to hard core creation. As best I can tell, the authors favor “theistic evolution” although they prefer the term “evolutionary creationism” which is the same thing. Here’s a definition from the article: “Theistic evolution, also called ‘evolutionary creation,’ posits God used evolution to create biological life, including humans.”

Let’s translate that into straightforward English. “God used a process which works perfectly without any intelligent agent to create biological life.” Another way of saying it is “God used a completely self-contained process which is not accessible to any agent to create life.”

We start to see the problem with these statements. The problem is God. The statements work so much better if we simply eliminate God, whose role seems limited to creating a contradiction.

“A process which works perfectly without any intelligent agency created life.” There. Now there’s no contradiction and the statement makes sense.

Or, if you prefer, “God, an agent of unlimited intelligence and act, created life.” That statement, too, is shorn of contradiction and makes sense.

But there’s no way to combine these two statements into a coherent and logical proposition.

Like a figure which is both a circle and a square at the same time in the same way, theistic evolution is a flat out contradiction and makes no sense.

Maybe that’s what makes it somehow feel so right to so many people these days. 😉
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Comments
John 17:3 (NWT)
This means everlasting life, their coming to know you,
Any thoughts in why this verse got changed in the latest revision of the NWT?Mung
May 18, 2014
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The New World Translation alters the original Greek text of the BibleMung
May 18, 2014
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Is the New World Translation the most accurate rendition of the original Greek texts? To get your own free pdf of the Kingdom Interlinear TranslationMung
May 18, 2014
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CRISIS OF CONSCIENCEMung
May 18, 2014
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Barb, you should check this out: KINGDOM INTERLINEAR TRANSLATION OF THE GREEK SCRIPTURES If you can find it at your local Kingdom Hall. "Sincere seekers for eternal, life-giving truth desire an accurate understanding of the faith-inspiring Greek Scriptures, an understanding that is fortified by the knowledge of what the original language says and means. The purpose behind the publishing of The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures is to aid such seekers of truth and life. Its literal interlinear English translation is especially designed to open up to the student of the Sacred Scriptures what the original koine Greek basically or literally says."Mung
May 18, 2014
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In Romans 14:8 (NWT) Kurios (Lord) is translated as Jehovah three times:
For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah.
But here's one they missed:
Next he said to Thomas: “Put your finger here, and see my hands, and take your hand and stick it into my side, and stop doubting* but believe.” 28 In answer Thomas said to him: “My Lord and my God!
Oh well, there's always the next edition of the NWT to look forward to! Is Jesus Christ Lord? Lord Jesus Christ: Devotion to Jesus in Earliest ChristianityMung
May 18, 2014
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Here they admit to doctoring the text to fit their doctrine:
The New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures does not follow this common practice. It uses the name Jehovah a total of 237 times in the Christian Greek Scriptures. In deciding to do this, the translators took into consideration two important factors: (1) The Greek manuscripts we possess today are not the originals. Of the thousands of copies in existence today, most were made at least two centuries after the originals were composed. (2) By that time, those copying the manuscripts either replaced the Tetragrammaton with Ky?ri·os, the Greek word for “Lord,” or they copied from manuscripts where this had already been done. The New World Bible Translation Committee determined that there is compelling evidence that the Tetragrammaton did appear in the original Greek manuscripts.
http://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/appendix-a/divine-name-christian-greek-scriptures/#p1 So yes, it's inferior. The translators render in English not what the text says, but what they wish the text said. So what's the point of arguing with a JW over Greek words when their practice is to make the Greek text say whatever they want it to say?Mung
May 18, 2014
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Barb, it is a common figure of speech to name the part . . . esp a major one . . . to signify the whole, e,g, all hands on deck or Holland for the Netherlands. Attending to context, you will see the history gives several candidate shapes, but circumstantial details of the C1 reports as above narrow this to to T or t, and the sign board overhead generally points to t. Cf my notes addressed to Mung. KFkairosfocus
May 18, 2014
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Mung, You’re being lied to and misled, Barb. Says the person who hasn't refuted a single point I've made in this thread, either from scripture quotations or comments from biblical scholars. So all the other Bible translations that render "stauros" as stake are also wrong? W.E. Vine, the writer and scholar of a biblical commentary on Hebrew and Greek words, is also wrong? Or are you wrong, Mung? Which is it? Indeed it is a mystery to me why a group who would deny that Jesus was hung on a cross and was raised bodily from the dead would want to call themselves Christian. Because they are following the teachings of Christ, not the traditions of men. Don't take my word for it. Look up the scriptures cited.Barb
May 18, 2014
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WLC:
Thus, the details of the Gospel crucifixion narratives are all consistent with the traditional understanding that Jesus was crucified on a cross-shaped frame. This is how the early church understood the crucifixion narratives, as evident from the earliest engravings and pictographs of the cross going all the way back to the first century. Samuelsson’s dissertation focuses exclusively on philology (linguistics) and takes no cognizance of archaeology or art history.
Mung
May 18, 2014
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PPPS: The sign-board would have likely been of significant size, 2" letters being legible at 50 ft. Assuming one-liners and that the Latin would be the usual INRI as official charge and the others being cut down to fit, we can see 10-12" high or maybe 15", and easily 24 - 30" wide. This was no little scrap of paper. 1/2" or more thick would be reasonable, and given wind gusts, substantial nailing work. This tends to support the t-cross, sticking up maybe 24 - 30" above the cross-beam. 2' in the hole, doubtless either set in or wedged in, 10' high, with 2' above and 6' for the victim leaves feet maybe only 2' above ground with 12'. 14' is looking more likely.kairosfocus
May 18, 2014
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Indeed it is a mystery to me why a group who would deny that Jesus was hung on a cross and was raised bodily from the dead would want to call themselves Christian.Mung
May 18, 2014
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PPS: Recall, the placard over the head identifying the crime that led to such a shameful end, was a key part of the whole business so far as the Romans were concerned -- especially for one in the "place of chief dishonour" as ringleader as alleged (he probably got the cross intended for Barabbas). In this case, Pilate took advantage to give a dig at the Jewish leaders by refusing to amend from King of the Jews to he said he was king of the Jews. That makes the classic t-cross the most reasonable shape, as that projecting upright is the easiest way to attach it. (Cf. illustrations of typical crosses here.)kairosfocus
May 18, 2014
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PS: WLC http://www.reasonablefaith.org/was-jesus-crucified-on-a-crosskairosfocus
May 18, 2014
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Mung: The general and early consensus was, t or Tau . . . T . . . cross (if the latter, with an inscription up over the head making it look like a t). Relevant, C1 NT evidence, superscription over the head. I, T or t. 2nd relevant evidence, Thomas speaks of nails piercing hands (which in that time included wrists) . . . Y, X, T or t. 3rd evidence . . . decisive, Jesus carried cross-beam until he could go no farther, and someone was impressed to carry it for him, Simon from Cyrenica. T or t. Try carrying a 4" x 6", 6-ft long beam on shoulders after you have been badly whipped and probably deprived of sleep and nourishment for a full night. Then think of dragging a 6" square ~ 10 ft long beam (2' in the post-hole, leaves 8' to work with, I suspect 12' is more reasonable) with the same cross-piece on one end. The first is barely possible, the second just does not work. The conclusion is, as various sources say, carrying your cross meant being forced to carry the perhaps 6' cross-piece as a part of the ritual of degradation. Again, T or t. Overlap zone, T or t. No reason to conclude other than t (the traditional Latin cross), which is from old traditions. People have made too much of "stauros," stake. That is the main, upright member that in Gk probably stands for the whole a la all hands on deck. KFkairosfocus
May 18, 2014
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Particularly associated today with the idea of a stake are Jehovah's Witnesses, who assert that the device used for Jesus' execution was a simple upright stake, while mainstream Christians picture the device as having a transverse beam in addition to the upright. In line with their belief about the shape of the device, Jehovah's Witnesses support earlier claims that the cross was adopted as a Christian symbol only under the 4th-century emperor Constantine the Great. Jehovah's Witnesses' publications have argued that the use of the Greek word stau·ros? in the Gospel accounts when referring to the instrument of execution on which Jesus died refers to an upright pole, stake, or post without a crossbeam. Their New World Translation of the Bible therefore uses the phrase "torture stake" to translate the Greek word ??????? (stauros) in the three passages cited: Matthew 27:40, Mark 15:30 and Luke 23:26. As shown above, both those claims are debated by scholars. The words by which the Gospels referred to the gibbet on which Jesus died did not necessarily mean a stake, nor did it necessarily mean a cross with cross-bar, but Christian writers long before AD 300 specifically spoke of that gibbet as having a cross-bar, being either cross-shaped or T-shaped. A study edition of the New World Translation supports the religion's belief by reproducing an illustration from a work by 16th century philologist Justus Lipsius showing a man suspended by the wrists on a crux simplex or upright pole. The image is given at the head of this article, along with Justus Lipsius's illustration of the gibbet used for Jesus, which shows a traditional-style cross with cross-bar. James Penton, who was raised as a Jehovah's Witness but was expelled from the religion on grounds of apostasy in 1981, has claimed that the use of the single illustration by the Watch Tower Society "demonstrates so clearly how much their scholarship is affected by dogmatism". "Watch Tower scholars falsely leave the impression that Lipsius thought that Jesus was put to death in that way", he wrote. "In fact, Lipsius gives sixteen illustrations of impalement, thirteen of which show stakes with some sort of cross member." In their book, Reasoning From the Scriptures, Jehovah's Witnesses also reinforce their doctrine with a partial quote from The Imperial Bible-Dictionary (edited by Patrick Fairbairn, 1874) that states the crux "appears to have been originally an upright pole". In the original text, however, the dictionary continued, "... and this always remained the most prominent part. But from the time that it began to be used as an instrument of punishment, a transverse piece of wood was commonly added: not, however, always, even then."
Instrument of Jesus' crucifixion You're being lied to and misled, Barb.Mung
May 18, 2014
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At times the gibbet was only one vertical stake, called in Latin crux simplex. This was the simplest available construction for torturing and killing the condemned. Frequently, however, there was a cross-piece attached either at the top to give the shape of a T (crux commissa) or just below the top, as in the form most familiar in Christian symbolism (crux immissa). Jehovah's Witnesses argue that Jesus was crucified on a crux simplex, and that the crux immissa was an invention of Emperor Constantine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion#Cross_shapeMung
May 18, 2014
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Come on people, the New Testament is to the Old Testament is what the Book of Mormon is to the New Testament. If you approach the subject in all honesty how can you not see the NT is a cultic aberration to the OT. The NT characterization of the OT is completely at odds with the OT itself. First rule, be consistentCentralScrutinizer
May 17, 2014
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Mung,
The other scholars you quoted were not asked it if was inferior.
No, Mung, they did an honest, unbiased comparison of the NWT with other versions and came away with their conclusions. Which apparently went right over your head.
What’s the Hebrew word for tree?
In Hebrew, ?ets and in Greek, den?dron. But you’re asking about Hebrew words for a scripture that comes from the New Testament, which was originally written in Greek.
What’s the Hebrew word for stake?
We’re not dealing with the Hebrew language, we’re dealing with the Greek language, which is what Galatians is translated from. In classical Greek the word (stau•ros?) rendered “torture stake” in the New World Translation primarily denotes an upright stake, or pole, and there is no evidence that the writers of the Christian Greek Scriptures used it to designate a stake with a crossbeam. The Hebrew word for tree is also used with regard to the stake or post on which a body was hung. (Ge 40:19; De 21:22, 23; Jos 8:29; Es 2:23) In applying Deuteronomy 21:23, the apostle Paul used the Greek word xy?lon (wood) at the scripture you cited, Galatians 3:13. This clearly refers to a stake (or upright pole) and not a cross. Explaining why a simple stake was often used for executions, the book Das Kreuz und die Kreuzigung (The Cross and the Crucifixion), by Hermann Fulda, states: “Trees were not everywhere available at the places chosen for public execution. So a simple beam was sunk into the ground. On this the outlaws, with hands raised upward and often also with their feet, were bound or nailed.” The Companion Bible points out: “[Stau•ros?] never means two pieces of timber placed across one another at any angle . . . There is nothing in the Greek of the [New Testament] even to imply two pieces of timber.”
Why does the NWT translate the same Hebrew word differently?
You are confused. Hebrew isn’t the language that the Greek scriptures (like Galatians 3:13) were written in. That would be translated from the Greek. Again for emphasis: the Greek word generally translated “cross” is stau•ros?. It basically means “an upright pale or stake.” This is where translations can get confusing when the words aren’t translated accurately. Most Bible translations say Christ was “crucified” rather than “impaled.” This is because of the common belief that the torture instrument upon which he was hung was a “cross” made of two pieces of wood instead of a single pale, or stake. Tradition, not the Scriptures, also says that the condemned man carried only the crossbeam of the cross, called the patibulum, or antenna, instead of both parts. Yet, what did the Bible writers themselves say about these matters? They used the Greek noun stau•ros? 27 times and the verbs stau•ro?o 46 times, syn•stau•ro?o (the prefix syn, meaning “with”) 5 times, and a•na•stau•ro?o (a•na?, meaning “again”) once. They also used the Greek word xy?lon, meaning “wood,” 5 times to refer to the torture instrument upon which Jesus was nailed. Stau•ros? in both the classical Greek and Koine carries no thought of a “cross” made of two timbers. It means only an upright stake, pale, pile, or pole, as might be used for a fence, stockade, or palisade. Says Douglas’ New Bible Dictionary of 1985 under “Cross,” page 253: “The Gk. word for ‘cross’ (stauros; verb stauroo . . . ) means primarily an upright stake or beam, and secondarily a stake used as an instrument for punishment and execution.” The fact that Luke, Peter, and Paul also used xy?lon as a synonym for stau•ros? gives added evidence that Jesus was impaled on an upright stake without a crossbeam, for that is what xy?lon in this special sense means. (Ac 5:30; 10:39; 13:29; Ga 3:13; 1Pe 2:24) Xy?lon also occurs in the Greek Septuagint at Ezra 6:11, where it speaks of a single beam or timber on which a lawbreaker was to be impaled. The New World Translation, therefore, faithfully conveys to the reader this basic idea of the Greek text by rendering stau•ros? as “torture stake,” and the verb stau•ro?o as “impale,” that is, to fasten on a stake, or pole. In this way there is no confusion of stau•ros? with the traditional ecclesiastical crosses. The matter of one man like Simon of Cyrene bearing a torture stake, as the Scriptures say, is perfectly reasonable, for if it was 15 cm (6 in.) in diameter and 3.5 m (11 ft) long, it probably weighed little more than 45 kg (100 lb) (see also Mark 15:21). Note what W. E. Vine says on this subject: “STAUROS (???????) denotes, primarily, an upright pale or stake. On such malefactors were nailed for execution. Both the noun and the verb stauroo, to fasten to a stake or pale, are originally to be distinguished from the ecclesiastical form of a two beamed cross.” Greek scholar Vine then mentions the Chaldean origin of the two-piece cross and how it was adopted from the pagans by Christendom in the third century C.E. as a symbol of Christ’s impalement.—Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words Significant is this comment in the book The Cross in Ritual, Architecture, and Art: “It is strange, yet unquestionably a fact, that in ages long before the birth of Christ, and since then in lands untouched by the teaching of the Church, the Cross has been used as a sacred symbol. . . . The Greek Bacchus, the Tyrian Tammuz, the Chaldean Bel, and the Norse Odin, were all symbolised to their votaries by a cruciform device.”—By G. S. Tyack, London, 1900, p. 1.Barb
May 17, 2014
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Mung @43 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+19%3A8-10&version=CJBCentralScrutinizer
May 17, 2014
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As regards the cross. It might just as easily be argued that 'tree' would seem to imply branches (cross-beam), rather than a mere tree trunk. Moreover, Christ - like the bronze serpent held up on a staff during the sojourn of the Hebrews in the desert - having been made sin for our sakes, the Cross seems to have notable resonances with the tree from which Absolom, the treacherous son of David, was accidentally caught up and suspended by his head, between its boughs, when Absolom killed him with three darts. (Incidentally, it has been suggested that a Y-shaped cross might have been used for Christ's crucifixion). It also struck me recently that the reference to the cross of crucifixion as a 'tree', might also reflect an, at best, rudimentary planing of the timbers. I suspect, other than what might have been required as essential for the practical purpose of the nailing, scant energy, if any, would have been expended on its fabrication: as disposable as their unfortunate victims. In conclusion, I think it unwise to question very ancient lore of the church that has survived to the present day, particularly when it is so closely associated with veneration of Holy Trinity, in the sign of the cross.Axel
May 17, 2014
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Barb @39: 'Jesus, having been resurrected as a spirit (1Pe 3:18), could materialize a body for the occasion as the angels did in past times, when they appeared as messengers. (Ge 18:2; 19:1, 12; Jos 5:13, 14; Jg 13:3, 6; Heb 13:2). Resurrection as a spirit makes no sense. True, the spirit leaves the body when we die, but when Paul spoke of Christ being raised from the dead, he was clearly speaking about his glorified body; 'glorified' here being the operative word. You yourself quote a relevant passage of scripture: 'Humans with flesh-and-blood bodies cannot live in heaven. Of the resurrection to heavenly life, the Bible says: “It is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body. . . . flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom.” (1 Corinthians 15:44-50) Only spirit persons with spiritual bodies can live in heaven.' A body is more than a spirit or ghost. Christ's Spirit is the Holy Ghost, is it not? If as you claim, he merely assumed a physical body, out of any number he might have chosen, as a mere simulacrum of his own body while on earth, why did he tell Thomas to look at the wounds in his hands and feet and to put his hand in the hole in his side? were they no more than serviceable teaching aids he co-opted? The glorification of Christ's body, whereby, like a spirit, he was able to walk through walls, for example, is the template for the glorification of our bodies, when we die and are resurrected. So, forget the 'flesh and blood' qua the normal sentient, mortal, human body and blood. Christ and the Evangelists were talking about a spiritualised body, but a body, not a spirit. Indeed, I believe that blood is a symbol of the spirit in christian lore. Certainly, we know little to nothing beyond the fact that our bodies will be glorified, other than the fact that 'eye hath not seen, nor ear heard' what we shall encounter in heaven. What is your 'take' on the Shroud of Turin? It strikes me that the evidence is as 'finely tuned' to what we know of Christ's death and burial, as the cosmos is to viability on earth; particularly in conjunction with the Sudarium of Oviedo?Axel
May 17, 2014
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Gal 3:13 NASB
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us-- for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE "
NWT:
Christ purchased us, releasing us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse instead of us, because it is written: “Accursed is every man hung upon a stake.”
NWT:
Thus Jehovah God made to grow out of the ground every tree that was pleasing to look at and good for food and also the tree of life in the middle of the garden and the tree of the knowledge of good and bad.+
NWT sez:
his dead body should not remain all night on the stake. Instead, you should be sure to bury him on that day, because the one hung up is something accursed of God, and you should not defile your land that Jehovah your God is giving you as an inheritance.
But contrary to the NWT:
And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree: His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.
What's the Hebrew word for tree? What's the Hebrew word for stake? Why does the NWT translate the same Hebrew word differently?Mung
May 16, 2014
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Barb:
The other scholars I quoted do not believe it’s inferior.
The other scholars you quoted were not asked it if was inferior.Mung
May 16, 2014
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What’s your source for this quote? If you expect me to refute “arguments” I need to know the source of those arguments. Are they from some Watchtower publication? Is the source accurately represented? Yes, I expect you to refute arguments. That's the whole point of debating. My initial source was a publication produced by the Witnesses entitled All Scripture is Inspired of God The quote is from an interview Dr. Kedar had with a Witness in June 1989. However, a couple of online searches turned up a letter written by Dr. Kedar years later. You'll note that while he has no love for the Witnesses themselves, he still states that the NWT is an accurate translation.
He has been quoted as saying; "Since several individuals and institutions have addressed me concerning the following matter, I make this statement; henceforth it will be sent instead of a personal letter to anyone appealing to me to clarify my position. 1) Several years ago I quoted the so-called New World Translation among several Bible versions in articles that dealt with purely philological [pertaining to the study/science of languages] questions (such as the rendition of the causative hiphil, of the participle qotel). In the course of my comparative studies I found the NWT rather illuminating: it gives evidence of an acute awareness of the structural characteristics of Hebrew as well as an honest effort to faithfully render these in the target [English] language. A translation is bound to be a compromise, and as such its details are open to criticism; this applies to the NWT too. In the portion corresponding to the Hebrew Bible, however, I have never come upon an obviously erroneous rendition which would find its explanation in a dogmatic bias. Repeatedly I have asked the antagonists of the Watchtower-Bible who turned to me for a clarification of my views, to name specific verses for a renewed scrutiny. This was either not done or else the verse submitted (e.g. Genesis 4:13, 6:3, 10:9, 15:5, 18:20 etc.) did not prove the point, namely a tendentious[with a purposed aim/biased] translation. 2) I beg to make clear that I do not feel any sympathy for any sect and this includes Jehovah's Witnesses. Of course, my mistrust is not directed against the individual member of such sect but rather against the organization that manipulates him and puts forward its dogmas and rules as the ultimate truth. It should be conceded, however, that the groups and organizations that fiercely oppose the witnesses do not behave any better. On the whole, synagogue, church and mosque also tend to exhibit dogmatic arrogance coupled with intolerance of and enmity with other confessions. 3) I cannot help expressing my deep conviction that the search for truth will never benefit by linguistic quibble. Whether the author using the word naephaesh denoted 'soul' as opposed to body(Lev 17:11) or meant something else, whether 'almah' means 'virgin' or 'young woman'(Is 7:14) is of great interest to philologists and historians of religion; an argument for or against blood transfusion or the virgin-birth of Jesus respectively, cannot be derived from it. 4) Obviously, it is man's destiny to make the choice of his way a matter of conscience and to the best of his knowledge. There exists no simple set of rules such as could be learned from the mouth of a guru or the pages of an ancient venerable book. Those who pretend to act according to an infallible guide, more often than not interpret the texts in accordance with their preconceived wishes and notions.”
The letter is dated 1995. From here: http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/38458#ixzz31wDQMDMF It's also quoted on this blog as well: http://www.belovedjerusalem.com/Barb
May 16, 2014
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Which version of the NWT was he talking about Barb? Certainly not the 2013 version, it wasn’t around in 1989. Originally, it was published in sections starting in 1950. A version with references was produced in 1984.Barb
May 16, 2014
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Mung,
I fail to see the innuendo. You asked a question and I gave an honest answer. The NWT is not reliable. It’s inferior. I even provided an example of how it is inferior compared to another JW approved translation.
The other scholars I quoted do not believe it’s inferior. Their opinion trumps yours. Your “honest” answer is, unfortunately, clouded by your prejudice against the Witnesses. That is obvious enough from your comments.
And bias? You quoting other translations does not transform the NWT into a reliable and unbiased source, in fact, it tends to emphasize the differences.
So, if I quote from the NWT it’s inferior. If I quote from other translations, it’s also a problem for you. What a completely illogical line of thinking, Mung. Quoting from other translations does show some translational differences (usually just in words or phrases), yes, but if the translators are reliable, the gist of the scripture should be clear. Comparing translations also shows which translators did their homework, so to speak, and accurately translated the Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic words. Again, please feel free to refute the biblical scholars mentioned above, all of whom do not view the NWT as inferior.
Why do JW’s need their own translation?
The truth is, the Witnesses utilize whatever translation is easily available in their language. For many years, they used the King James Version.
Is it because other previous translations were inferior? Apparently so.
It’s helpful here to understand that Bible translations cover a broad spectrum of styles, but they fall into three basic categories. Interlinear translations are at one end of the spectrum. These translations contain the original-language text along with a word-for-word rendering into the target language. Paraphrase translations fall at the other end of the spectrum. Translators of these versions freely restate the message of the Bible as they understand it in a way that they feel will appeal to their audience. The NWT falls into the third category: one that embraces translations that endeavor to strike a balance between these two extremes. These versions of the Bible strive to convey the meaning and flavor of the original-language expressions while also making the text easy to read. Other previous translations may or may not have captured accurately what the Bible writers were trying to convey. One of the much older KJV translations renders a Hebrew word as “bat” when “bird” would have been more appropriate. I’m going to continue quoting some of the scholars I mentioned earlier: note what Hebrew and Greek commentator Alexander Thomson had to say in his review on the New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures: “The translation is evidently the work of skilled and clever scholars, who have sought to bring out as much of the true sense of the Greek text as the English language is capable of expressing. The version aims to keep to one English meaning for each major Greek word, and to be as literal as possible. . . . The word usually rendered ‘justify’ is generally translated very correctly as ‘declare righteous.’ . . . The word for the Cross is rendered ‘torture stake’ which is another improvement. . . . Luke 23:43 is well rendered, ‘Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise.’ This is a big improvement upon the reading of most versions.” On the translation of the Hebrew Scriptures, the same reviewer made this comment: “The New World Version is well worth acquiring. It is lively and lifelike, and makes the reader think and study. It is not the work of Higher Critics, but of scholars who honour God and His Word.”—The Differentiator Again, refute what Thomson says about the NWT. Try using some form of evidence, as I have, instead of your own opinion.
Lest we lose sight of where this debate with Barb began. Barb began by asserting that if Jesus had been raised along with the body that was buried in the tomb that it would have prevented him from inheriting the kingdom, because “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom.” She therefore reasons that Jesus cannot have been bodily raised from the dead.
A point that I might add is backed up by numerous scriptural references.
When asked what happened to the body, she offers that perhaps God hid it.
Good question: what happened to Jesus’ fleshly body? Did not the disciples find his tomb empty? They did, because God removed Jesus’ body. Why did God do this? It fulfilled what had been written in the Bible. (Psalm 16:10; Acts 2:31) Thus Jehovah saw fit to remove Jesus’ body, even as he had done before with Moses’ body. (Deuteronomy 34:5, 6) Also, if the body had been left in the tomb, Jesus’ disciples could not have understood that he had been raised from the dead, since at that time they did not fully appreciate spiritual things. Jehovah God evidently disposed of Jesus’ fleshly body in his own way (possibly disintegrating it into the atoms of which it was constituted). (Lu 24:2, 3, 22, 23; Joh 20:2)
And yet she also admits that Jesus appeared bodily after his resurrection. She reasons it must have been in some other body, some body other than that which was buried.
Jesus, having been resurrected as a spirit (1Pe 3:18), could materialize a body for the occasion as the angels did in past times, when they appeared as messengers. (Ge 18:2; 19:1, 12; Jos 5:13, 14; Jg 13:3, 6; Heb 13:2) During the days before the Flood, the angels that “did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place” performed an incarnation and married human wives. That these angelic sons of God were not truly human but had materialized bodies is shown by the fact that the Flood did not destroy these angels, but they dematerialized and returned to the spirit realm.—Jude 6; Ge 6:4; 1Pe 3:19, 20; 2Pe 2:4.
Based on what? Where did Jesus’ post-resurrection bodies come from?
Based on (1) that the Bible states clearly that he was resurrected as a spirit, as noted in the scriptures cited above in a previous post, and (2) materializing into a fleshly body would not be a problem for the Son of God. Jesus evidently materialized bodies on these occasions, as angels had done in the past when appearing to humans. Disposing of Jesus’ physical body at the time of his resurrection presented no problem for God. Interestingly, although the physical body was not left by God in the tomb (evidently to strengthen the conviction of the disciples that Jesus had actually been raised), the linen cloths in which it had been wrapped were left there; yet, the resurrected Jesus always appeared fully clothed. (I’m repeating what I posted earlier, since Mung apparently hasn’t read most of what I’ve posted here). You believe that Jesus was raised from the dead. Yet you do not believe that God could provide a human body for him. What an odd contradiction of beliefs you have, Mung. Again, do you have anything to say about the scriptural references here? They do prove my point for me.
And she has still failed to address the central question that was posed to her. If Jesus can appear post-resurrection in various different bodies, and yet still inherit the kingdom, how is it that he could not have been raised bodily and still inherit the kingdom?
Because the scriptures clearly state that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. The Bible is very clear when it says: “Christ died once for all time concerning sins . . . , he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit.” (1 Peter 3:18) What part of that scripture do you not understand? Humans with flesh-and-blood bodies cannot live in heaven. Of the resurrection to heavenly life, the Bible says: “It is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body. . . . flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom.” (1 Corinthians 15:44-50) Only spirit persons with spiritual bodies can live in heaven. Again, what part of that scripture do you not understand? Jesus did not take back his fleshly body and thereby cancel out the ransom for which it was given. Emphasis mine. If Jesus continued to use his fleshly body, was the ransom for mankind’s sin really paid? If not, then what was the point of his death?Barb
May 16, 2014
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Oh, and let's discuss translating "Cross" as "stake", shall we? The instrument of torture which the Greeks called staurós, and the Latins crux, was originally only a stake without a crossbeam at any angle. Consult an International Encyclopedia or other exhaustive reference work upon the subject for yourself. There is no factual, historical proof that Jesus was nailed to a cross such as Roman Catholics idolize. The New World Translation is not alone in maintaining that Jesus was executed upon a stake. If you have a copy of The Companion Bible Part V. The Gospels, published by the Oxford University Press, then turn to its Appendix No. 162 entitled “The Cross and Crucifixion” (page 186). After a lengthy discussion of considerable evidence the article concludes: “The evidence is thus complete, that the Lord was put to death upon an upright stake, and not on two pieces of timber placed at any angle.” Evidently you, in your reading of the Bible, have failed to attach due significance to the fact that the apostle Peter speaks of it only as a “tree” (Acts 5:30; 10:39; 1 Peter 2:24), and the apostle Paul speaks of it also as a “tree”, at Acts 13:29 and Galatians 3:13. The Greek word rendered “cross” in many modern Bible versions (“torture stake” in NW) is stau·ros?. In classical Greek, this word meant merely an upright stake, or pale. Later it also came to be used for an execution stake having a crosspiece. The Imperial Bible-Dictionary acknowledges this, saying: “The Greek word for cross, [stau·ros?], properly signified a stake, an upright pole, or piece of paling, on which anything might be hung, or which might be used in impaling [fencing in] a piece of ground. . . . Even amongst the Romans the crux (from which our cross is derived) appears to have been originally an upright pole.”—Edited by P. Fairbairn (London, 1874), Vol. I, p. 376. It is noteworthy that the Bible also uses the word xy?lon to identify the device used. A Greek-English Lexicon, by Liddell and Scott, defines this as meaning: “Wood cut and ready for use, firewood, timber, etc. . . . piece of wood, log, beam, post . . . cudgel, club . . . stake on which criminals were impaled . . . of live wood, tree.” It also says “in NT, of the cross,” and cites Acts 5:30 and 10:39 as examples. (Oxford, 1968, pp. 1191, 1192) However, in those verses KJ, RS, JB, and Dy translate xy?lon as “tree.” (Compare this rendering with Galatians 3:13; Deuteronomy 21:22, 23.) The book The Non-Christian Cross, by J. D. Parsons (London, 1896), says: “There is not a single sentence in any of the numerous writings forming the New Testament, which, in the original Greek, bears even indirect evidence to the effect that the stauros used in the case of Jesus was other than an ordinary stauros; much less to the effect that it consisted, not of one piece of timber, but of two pieces nailed together in the form of a cross. . . . It is not a little misleading upon the part of our teachers to translate the word stauros as ‘cross’ when rendering the Greek documents of the Church into our native tongue, and to support that action by putting ‘cross’ in our lexicons as the meaning of stauros without carefully explaining that that was at any rate not the primary meaning of the word in the days of the Apostles, did not become its primary signification till long afterwards, and became so then, if at all, only because, despite the absence of corroborative evidence, it was for some reason or other assumed that the particular stauros upon which Jesus was executed had that particular shape.” (Pages 23-4) Thus the weight of the evidence indicates that Jesus died on an upright stake and not on the traditional cross. There is another Greek word, xy?lon, that Bible writers used to describe the instrument of Jesus’ execution. A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament defines xy?lon as “a piece of timber, a wooden stake.” It goes on to say that like stauros?, xy?lon “was simply an upright pale or stake to which the Romans nailed those who were thus said to be crucified.” In line with this, we note that the King James Version reads at Acts 5:30: “The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree [xy?lon].” Other versions, though rendering stauros? as “cross,” also translate xy?lon as “tree.” At Acts 13:29, The Jerusalem Bible says of Jesus: “When they had carried out everything that scripture foretells about him they took him down from the tree [xy?lon] and buried him.” Would you care to argue that the KJV and JB are wrong? In view of the basic meaning of the Greek words stauros? and xy?lon, the Critical Lexicon and Concordance, quoted above, observes: “Both words disagree with the modern idea of a cross, with which we have become familiarised by pictures.” In other words, what the Gospel writers described using the word stauros? was nothing like what people today call a cross. Appropriately, therefore, the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures uses the expression “torture stake” at Matthew 27:40-42 and in other places where the word stauros? appears. Similarly, the Complete Jewish Bible uses the expression “execution stake.” Feel free to refute any of the translations or scholars quoted above.Barb
May 16, 2014
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Lest we lose sight of where this debate with Barb began. Barb began by asserting that if Jesus had been raised along with the body that was buried in the tomb that it would have prevented him from inheriting the kingdom, because "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom." She therefore reasons that Jesus cannot have been bodily raised from the dead. When asked what happened to the body, she offers that perhaps God hid it. And yet she also admits that Jesus appeared bodily after his resurrection. She reasons it must have been in some other body, some body other than that which was buried. Based on what? Where did Jesus' post-resurrection bodies come from? And she has still failed to address the central question that was posed to her. If Jesus can appear post-resurrection in various different bodies, and yet still inherit the kingdom, how is it that he could not have been raised bodily and still inherit the kingdom?Mung
May 16, 2014
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Barb:
Let me suggest to you that your arguments be based on facts, not innuendo and bias.
I fail to see the innuendo. You asked a question and I gave an honest answer. The NWT is not reliable. It's inferior. I even provided an example of how it is inferior compared to another JW approved translation. And bias? You quoting other translations does not transform the NWT into a reliable and unbiased source, in fact, it tends to emphasize the differences. Why do JW's need their own translation? Is it because other previous translations were inferior? Apparently so.Mung
May 16, 2014
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