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Adam and Eve and Bryan College: BioLogos strikes

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Some say 20% of faculty are leaving.

Students and faculty at Bryan are upset at a move last month by the school’s board of trustees to “clarify” that the college believes Adam and Eve were historical figures created directly by God. The board says the clarification does not change the school’s historical position on origins. But some at Bryan believe the board’s action was intended to force out professors who may be sympathetic to evolution, and think it was unfair to do so at a time when faculty contracts are due for renewal. …

An English professor at the school, Whit Jones, said the timing of the clarification had been a “puzzle” to many on faculty, but might have been sparked by recent writings from two of his colleagues: Kenneth Turner, a Bible professor, and Brian Eisenback, an associate professor of biology who graduated from Bryan College in 2002. Together, Turner and Eisenback are writing science education materials under a grant from The BioLogos Foundation, an organization in Grand Rapids, Mich., that promotes theistic evolution.

Theistic evolution, also called “evolutionary creation,” posits God used evolution to create biological life, including humans. Bryan’s original belief statement would seem to preclude theistic evolution for humans because it says mankind’s sin “incurred physical … death”—death being a necessary component for evolution.

Though some proponents of creationism or intelligent design would argue the case for evolution is flimsy, Turner and Eisenback wrote otherwise in a two-part article that appeared on the BioLogos website in December: “Macroevolution is robust and has multiple lines of evidence in support of it, including the fossil record and molecular biology. … The reality is that evolution is not a theory teetering on the edge of collapse. More.

The obvious problem, for a person who has been following the news stream, is that the fossil record and molecular biology so often do not agree. And “evolution” is not so much “a theory teetering on the edge of collapse” as a theory that doesn’t explain anything. That is, we say “evolved to do” when we really mean “does.”

Darwin’s followers, including BioLogians, get marks for their Darwinian piety, talking this way.

Laszlo BenczeBut Laszlo Bencze comments:

Apparently some former graduates of Bryan College are writing a science curriculum that will cover the full spectrum of views from hard core evolution to hard core creation. As best I can tell, the authors favor “theistic evolution” although they prefer the term “evolutionary creationism” which is the same thing. Here’s a definition from the article: “Theistic evolution, also called ‘evolutionary creation,’ posits God used evolution to create biological life, including humans.”

Let’s translate that into straightforward English. “God used a process which works perfectly without any intelligent agent to create biological life.” Another way of saying it is “God used a completely self-contained process which is not accessible to any agent to create life.”

We start to see the problem with these statements. The problem is God. The statements work so much better if we simply eliminate God, whose role seems limited to creating a contradiction.

“A process which works perfectly without any intelligent agency created life.” There. Now there’s no contradiction and the statement makes sense.

Or, if you prefer, “God, an agent of unlimited intelligence and act, created life.” That statement, too, is shorn of contradiction and makes sense.

But there’s no way to combine these two statements into a coherent and logical proposition.

Like a figure which is both a circle and a square at the same time in the same way, theistic evolution is a flat out contradiction and makes no sense.

Maybe that’s what makes it somehow feel so right to so many people these days. 😉
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Comments
Kairosfocus,
1 –> The alphabet and the Greek/Cyrillic and Roman alphabets, the Hindu decimal number system, the idea and divisions of the academy and its major disciplines, our basic Calendar (a modified Julian Calendar) etc etc are all pagan in roots, as is the Corpus Juris Civilis that is the basis for law in much of the world outside the English Common Law system. That should serve, again . . . I pointed this out in outline already, to highlight that being pagan in roots does not equate to being suspect.
Paganism has nothing at all to do with Christianity. It cannot—and should not—be combined with the teachings of Christ. Paul asked, “what sharing does light have with darkness?”
2 –> On the Ankh, BTW, it is NOT a cross. It is a stylised womb, with its entrance and doorway. Just as the symbol for the male in biology points to a phallus.
The ankh (/?æ?k/ or /????k/; Egyptian: IPA), also known as key of life, the key of the Nile or crux ansata (Latin meaning "cross with a handle"), was the ancient Egyptian hieroglyphic character that read "life", a triliteral sign for the consonants ?-n-?. (from Wikipedia) Crux ansata was explained above, in a previous post of mine. “Cross with a handle”.
3 –> While we are at it X-P superposed . . . Chi-Rho . . . is the first two Greek letters of Christ, equivalent to Ch + r. FYI, there were special abbreviations for Divine references in the Biblical text, and Theos, Christos, Kyrios, etc received them. There is even a rendering on an eight-spiked wheel that makes it an ICTHUS, the Fish, standing for Jesus Christos, Huius Theos, Soter. Beyond, lies the triquetra, the triple fish and the Scutum Fide.
There is no evidence that for the first 300 years after Christ’s death, those claiming to be Christians used the cross in worship. And while we’re at it: : a representation of a fish used in ancient times as a pagan fertility talisman or amulet or as a Christian symbol for the Greek word ichthys interpreted as an acrostic in which the Greek letters are the initials of the words I ?sous Ch ristos th eou hy ios s ?t?r meaning Jesus Christ Son of God Savior (Merriam-Webster Dictionary online). Again, what does paganism have to do with Christianity?
4 –> I again point out the importance of doing what you apparently simply will not do, read the text in light of its import on context. Of the major shapes of crosses, only two are consistent with the text, a T or a t, with the sign-placard over Jesus’ head (not hands) making t much more reasonable. Don’t forget, he carried his patibulum.
I have read the text in light of its import on context. You and Mung are apparently refusing to read or consider anything that might disagree with your personal views. I may try to post a little from this book (http://www.amazon.com/Your-Word-Truth-Celebration-Anniversary/dp/0950621269)-- it’s a collection of essays written by Witnesses that explain many doctrinal matters.
1 Cor 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ [--> remember, we know t or T to be the shape based on the texts already discussed, and we know that stauros and xulon do not forbid but on examples given in a linked discussion do include T and t] be emptied of its power.
Interestingly, the Mounce Reverse Interlinear translation renders “cross” as “stauros”, which has been established as meaning stake or pole, not cross. The Complete Jewish Bible version reads “execution-stake”. The Orthodox Jewish Bible states “HaEtz HaKelalat Hashem (the Tree of the Curse of G-d—Dt 21:23), using the term “tree”. “Cross” is not an accurate translation of the word “stauros”.
23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
See above. Concerning first-century Christians, History of the Christian Church says: “There was no use of the crucifix and no material representation of the cross.”—(New York, 1897), J. F. Hurst, Vol. I, p. 366.
9 –> And, from Ossuaries from the 40?s on near Jerusalem [including one that seems to be that of the Sapphira of the NT . . . a fairly unique name it seems], there is no doubt that the Christian faith has been associated with the t-form cross.
Which, as has been explained above, is a pagan symbol adopted by Christianity long after the death of Christ.
10 –> So, while the exact shape of that cross is not a make-break issue for the Christian faith, it is not at all a reasonable position to try to argue that it can be dismissed as a C3 – 4 pagan import.
Yes, it can. And it has. And by scholars. Mung continues,
p.s. Where did JW’s get the idea that orthodox Christians worship the cross?
Roman Catholic writer and archaeologist Adolphe-Napoleon Didron stated: “The cross has received a worship similar, if not equal, to that of Christ; this sacred wood is adored almost equally with God Himself.”
What Barb does not seem to realize is that it is the JW’s who are taking an unbending stand on the shape of the cross. I’m merely hoisting them on their own stake.
And failing miserably, I might add. Refute some of scholars quoted here who explain that Jesus was not crucified. Refute the words of historians who explain the difference between impalement and crucifixion.
This is something they just cannot afford to be wrong about, as is evidenced by the constant waffling seen in this thread.
And, based on the fact that you haven’t refuted a single point I’ve made, I’d say that the Witnesses weren’t in the wrong.
Barb, did I miss something? Didn’t you earlier admit that stauros could mean a two beamed cross, T or t?
No, I don’t believe so. I’ve posted the definition of stauros several times. Re-read the thread if you’re confused.
Are you now back to claiming it cannot mean a two-beamed cross, that it can only mean an upright stake or pole?
See above. Also see what I posted earlier, repeated here for your benefit: The Companion Bible points out: “[Stau•ros?] never means two pieces of timber placed across one another at any angle . . . There is nothing in the Greek of the [New Testament] even to imply two pieces of timber.”
And how did you get from arguing that this was it’s primary meaning to now arguing that this is it’s one and only “true” meaning? What does that even mean?
See above. What do the scholars say “stauros” means?
I take it the hypocrisy was lost on you in that not even the New World Translation translates it that way. Apparently it’s “true” meaning is now “torture stake.”
Again, repeated for the benefit of the confused Mung: “The rendering of the Greek word stau•ros?, meaning an upright stake or pole, such as the one on which Jesus was executed. There is no evidence that the Greek word meant a cross, such as the pagans used as a religious symbol for many centuries before Christ. “Torture stake” conveys the full intent of the original word, since Jesus also used the word stau•ros? to indicate the torture, suffering, and shame that his followers would face. (Mt 16:24; Heb 12:2).Barb
May 30, 2014
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10 –> So, while the exact shape of that cross is not a make-break issue for the Christian faith, it is not at all a reasonable position to try to argue that it can be dismissed as a C3 – 4 pagan import.
What Barb does not seem to realize is that it is the JW's who are taking an unbending stand on the shape of the cross. I'm merely hoisting them on their own stake. This is something they just cannot afford to be wrong about, as is evidenced by the constant waffling seen in this thread. Barb, did I miss something? Didn't you earlier admit that stauros could mean a two beamed cross, T or t? Are you now back to claiming it cannot mean a two-beamed cross, that it can only mean an upright stake or pole? And how did you get from arguing that this was it's primary meaning to now arguing that this is it's one and only "true" meaning? What does that even mean? I take it the hypocrisy was lost on you in that not even the New World Translation translates it that way. Apparently it's "true" meaning is now "torture stake." IOW, they admit to the word stauros having more than just a literal "basic" meaning.Mung
May 30, 2014
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kf @ 92: 1-> also known as the genetic fallacy p.s. Where did JW's get the idea that orthodox Christians worship the cross?Mung
May 30, 2014
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Barb: Pardon a few points: 1 --> The alphabet and the Greek/Cyrillic and Roman alphabets, the Hindu decimal number system, the idea and divisions of the academy and its major disciplines, our basic Calendar (a modified Julian Calendar) etc etc are all pagan in roots, as is the Corpus Juris Civilis that is the basis for law in much of the world outside the English Common Law system. That should serve, again . . . I pointed this out in outline already, to highlight that being pagan in roots does not equate to being suspect. 2 --> On the Ankh, BTW, it is NOT a cross. It is a stylised womb, with its entrance and doorway. Just as the symbol for the male in biology points to a phallus. 3 --> While we are at it X-P superposed . . . Chi-Rho . . . is the first two Greek letters of Christ, equivalent to Ch + r. FYI, there were special abbreviations for Divine references in the Biblical text, and Theos, Christos, Kyrios, etc received them. There is even a rendering on an eight-spiked wheel that makes it an ICTHUS, the Fish, standing for Jesus Christos, Huius Theos, Soter. Beyond, lies the triquetra, the triple fish and the Scutum Fide. 4 --> I again point out the importance of doing what you apparently simply will not do, read the text in light of its import on context. Of the major shapes of crosses, only two are consistent with the text, a T or a t, with the sign-placard over Jesus' head (not hands) making t much more reasonable. Don't forget, he carried his patibulum. 5 --> Notice, nails in his hands (X, Y, T or t), carrying a cross beam, a fairly large sign board above his head (not hands), thus T or t with t more likely. 6 --> Moreover, whatever other religions may have done, in the region and time where Christianity began, the cross was the worst and most shameful -- in a shame-honour culture -- of forms of execution meted out to the worst of the worst, the lowest of the low. Jews saw it as a form of the hanging denounced in Deut as a sign of being under God's curse. 7 --> You could not come up with something more foolish and discrediting to preach about, that is why Paul wrote to the Corinthians c. 55 AD, as follows . . . and as was pointed out to you previously:
1 Cor 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ [--> remember, we know t or T to be the shape based on the texts already discussed, and we know that stauros and xulon do not forbid but on examples given in a linked discussion do include T and t] be emptied of its power. 18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.” 20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach[b] to save those who believe. 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
8 --> it is the power of eyewitness tot he resurrection as a testimony of God's vindication, backed up by the manifest power in the church, that reversed that almost insuperable status. 9 --> And, from Ossuaries from the 40's on near Jerusalem [including one that seems to be that of the Sapphira of the NT . . . a fairly unique name it seems], there is no doubt that the Christian faith has been associated with the t-form cross. 10 --> So, while the exact shape of that cross is not a make-break issue for the Christian faith, it is not at all a reasonable position to try to argue that it can be dismissed as a C3 - 4 pagan import. KFkairosfocus
May 30, 2014
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Mung,
Hardly. You cite a document that admits to the claims but says that they were not made in Jehovah’s name so you can safely pretend they didn’t happen? What do you think that clears up?
It should clear up your confusion as to why and when the Witnesses clarified their doctrinal understanding of the cross, among other things.
Then perhaps they, and you, should exhibit a bit more humility and a little less dogmatism about these beliefs, as what you believe today could change tomorrow.
I’m not the one who repeatedly posts the same thing in different threads because I don’t like somebody’s religion. And I would personally rather be a part of a religion that is humble enough to acknowledge its mistakes and correct them than a religion that arrogantly assumes that others are part of a "cult".
Tomorrow the organization might change their mind about stauros and you would have to go along, after arguing here (rather strenuously I might add) that the current doctrine is “the truth.”
Doubtful, since the definition of stauros is pretty clear. It has been translated as cross but its true meaning is “upright stake or pole”. Imagine believing that Jesus was crucified on a cross and arguing strenuously for that position only to have It snatched out from under you by “new light,” and then arguing strenuously that Jesus was hung on a tree and arguing strenuously for that position only to have It snatched out from under you by yet more “new light,” and then arguing strenuously that Jesus was crucified on a stake… and on it goes … what will it be next? Jesus was never crucified at all? That Jesus died for our sins is not up for debate. How he was executed is the current debate. And why the Witnesses often clarify their positions on doctrinal matters has also been explained. Here’s a question that’s answered for you in the publication Reasoning from the Scriptures (1985): Have not Jehovah’s Witnesses made errors in their teachings? Jehovah’s Witnesses do not claim to be inspired prophets. They have made mistakes. Like the apostles of Jesus Christ, they have at times had some wrong expectations.—Luke 19:11; Acts 1:6. The Scriptures provide time elements related to Christ’s presence, and Jehovah’s Witnesses have studied these with keen interest. (Luke 21:24; Dan. 4:10-17) Jesus also described a many-featured sign that would tie in with the fulfillment of time prophecies to identify the generation that would live to see the end of Satan’s wicked system of things. (Luke 21:7-36) Jehovah’s Witnesses have pointed to evidence in fulfillment of this sign. It is true that the Witnesses have made mistakes in their understanding of what would occur at the end of certain time periods, but they have not made the mistake of losing faith or ceasing to be watchful as to fulfillment of Jehovah’s purposes. They have continued to keep to the fore in their thinking the counsel given by Jesus: “Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.”—Matt. 24:42. Matters on which corrections of viewpoint have been needed have been relatively minor when compared with the vital Bible truths that they have discerned and publicized. Among these are the following: Jehovah is the only true God. Jesus Christ is not part of a Trinitarian godhead but is the only-begotten Son of God. Redemption from sin is possible only through faith in Christ’s ransom sacrifice. The holy spirit is not a person but is Jehovah’s active force, and its fruitage must be evident in the lives of true worshipers. The human soul is not immortal, as the ancient pagans claimed; it dies, and the hope for future life is in the resurrection. God’s permission of wickedness has been because of the issue of universal sovereignty. God’s Kingdom is the only hope for mankind. Since 1914 we have been living in the last days of the global wicked system of things. Only 144,000 faithful Christians will be kings and priests with Christ in heaven, whereas the rest of obedient mankind will receive eternal life on a paradise earth. Another factor to consider regarding the teachings of Jehovah’s Witnesses is this: Have these truly uplifted people morally? Are those who adhere to these teachings outstanding in their communities because of their honesty? Is their family life beneficially influenced by applying these teachings? Jesus said that his disciples would be readily identified because of having love among themselves. (John 13:35) Is this quality outstanding among Jehovah’s Witnesses? We let the facts speak for themselves.
Even the Watchtower doesn’t translate it as pole. It translates it as “torture stake.” So much for “true definitions.”
What part of “upright stake” did you not understand? The rendering of the Greek word stau•ros?, meaning an upright stake or pole, such as the one on which Jesus was executed. There is no evidence that the Greek word meant a cross, such as the pagans used as a religious symbol for many centuries before Christ. “Torture stake” conveys the full intent of the original word, since Jesus also used the word stau•ros? to indicate the torture, suffering, and shame that his followers would face. (Mt 16:24; Heb 12:2) Don’t take my word for it; read what the scholars have to say. And, more importantly, read what the Bible actually states.
Well Barb, I made a bet with myself and you lost.
Actually, I didn’t. I have provided abundant proof and evidence for my beliefs. You have not. But think whatever you want, dear.
Let us by all means preach a full-orbed Gospel and declare to the perishing what God in the Person of His Son has done for them through His death upon the Cross – W.E. Vine From The Collected Writings of W.E Vine, Volume 4, p.129 Also, a footnote from page 128 reads: “He is not merely a spirit, as the International Bible Students’ Association teaches.”
Yes, and W. E. Vine also wrote a concordance that explained that the true meaning of the word stauros is “upright stake or pole.” He’s contradicting himself here. How is that a victory for you? Let’s also examine why the cross is so important to orthodox Christianity. Again, from Reasoning from the Scriptures (1985): What were the historical origins of Christendom’s cross? “Various objects, dating from periods long anterior to the Christian era, have been found, marked with crosses of different designs, in almost every part of the old world. India, Syria, Persia and Egypt have all yielded numberless examples . . . The use of the cross as a religious symbol in pre-Christian times and among non-Christian peoples may probably be regarded as almost universal, and in very many cases it was connected with some form of nature worship.”—Encyclopaedia Britannica (1946), Vol. 6, p. 753. “The shape of the [two-beamed cross] had its origin in ancient Chaldea, and was used as the symbol of the god Tammuz (being in the shape of the mystic Tau, the initial of his name) in that country and in adjacent lands, including Egypt. By the middle of the 3rd cent. A.D. the churches had either departed from, or had travestied, certain doctrines of the Christian faith. In order to increase the prestige of the apostate ecclesiastical system pagans were received into the churches apart from regeneration by faith, and were permitted largely to retain their pagan signs and symbols. Hence the Tau or T, in its most frequent form, with the cross-piece lowered, was adopted to stand for the cross of Christ.”—An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words (London, 1962), W. E. Vine, p. 256. [Here Vine acknowledges that veneration of the cross is first and foremost a pagan practice. So why bring it into Christianity?] “It is strange, yet unquestionably a fact, that in ages long before the birth of Christ, and since then in lands untouched by the teaching of the Church, the Cross has been used as a sacred symbol. . . . The Greek Bacchus, the Tyrian Tammuz, the Chaldean Bel, and the Norse Odin, were all symbolised to their votaries by a cruciform device.”—The Cross in Ritual, Architecture, and Art (London, 1900), G. S. Tyack, p. 1. “The cross in the form of the ‘Crux Ansata’ . . . was carried in the hands of the Egyptian priests and Pontiff kings as the symbol of their authority as priests of the Sun god and was called ‘the Sign of Life.’”—The Worship of the Dead (London, 1904), Colonel J. Garnier, p. 226. “Various figures of crosses are found everywhere on Egyptian monuments and tombs, and are considered by many authorities as symbolical either of the phallus [a representation of the male sex organ] or of coition. . . . In Egyptian tombs the crux ansata [cross with a circle or handle on top] is found side by side with the phallus.”—A Short History of Sex-Worship (London, 1940), H. Cutner, pp. 16, 17; see also The Non-Christian Cross, p. 183. “These crosses were used as symbols of the Babylonian sun-god, [See book], and are first seen on a coin of Julius Cæsar, 100-44 B.C., and then on a coin struck by Cæsar’s heir (Augustus), 20 B.C. On the coins of Constantine the most frequent symbol is [See book]; but the same symbol is used without the surrounding circle, and with the four equal arms vertical and horizontal; and this was the symbol specially venerated as the ‘Solar Wheel’. It should be stated that Constantine was a sun-god worshipper, and would not enter the ‘Church’ till some quarter of a century after the legend of his having seen such a cross in the heavens.”—The Companion Bible, Appendix No. 162; see also The Non-Christian Cross, pp. 133-141.
The Gospel of the Bible Chapter Four: The Cross of Christ “The preaching of the Cross!” What heights and depths of Gospel grace and truth lie enfolded in that phrase! “The word of the Cross,” as the Revisers literally and rightly put it–that gives, in one terse expression, the sum and substance of the divine evangel. – W.E. Vine “The Cross is the center of all Gospel preaching guided, approved, and owned of God.” – W.E. Vine
The center of all gospel preaching is the Kingdom of God. That is what the Bible teaches, and I’ll take the words of Jesus himself over the words of W. E. Vine any day. Any true Christian would (Matthew 6:9,10). Once again, back to the Reasoning book: Is veneration of the cross a Scriptural practice? 1 Cor. 10:14: “My beloved ones, flee from idolatry.” (An idol is an image or symbol that is an object of intense devotion, veneration, or worship.) Ex. 20:4, 5, JB: “You shall not make yourself a carved image or any likeness of anything in heaven or on earth beneath or in the waters under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them.” (Notice that God commanded that his people not even make an image before which people would bow down.) What does the Bible say, Mung? Of interest is this comment in the New Catholic Encyclopedia: “The representation of Christ’s redemptive death on Golgotha does not occur in the symbolic art of the first Christian centuries. The early Christians, influenced by the Old Testament prohibition of graven images, were reluctant to depict even the instrument of the Lord’s Passion.”—(1967), Vol. IV, p. 486. Concerning first-century Christians, History of the Christian Church says: “There was no use of the crucifix and no material representation of the cross.”—(New York, 1897), J. F. Hurst, Vol. I, p. 366. So, yeah, I didn’t lose. You have to justify your veneration for what is essentially a pagan symbol in light of (a) scholarship that suggests otherwise, and (b) the words found in the Bible, which is what Christians should be following. You have failed to refute a single scholar who explains, rather clearly, that the word stauros means stake or pole and not cross. You have failed to refute a single scholar who explains that veneration of the cross is not found in the Bible or in the early Christian congregations (see above). You have failed to refute scholars who show by means of exegesis that the NWT is a scholarly translation. You have failed to refute a single scriptural citation proving my point that Jesus did not die on cross. You have failed to refute…well, anything.Barb
May 30, 2014
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"The Cross is the center of all Gospel preaching guided, approved, and owned of God." - W.E. VineMung
May 29, 2014
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The Gospel of the Bible Chapter Four: The Cross of Christ
"The preaching of the Cross!" What heights and depths of Gospel grace and truth lie enfolded in that phrase! "The word of the Cross," as the Revisers literally and rightly put it--that gives, in one terse expression, the sum and substance of the divine evangel. - W.E. Vine
Mung
May 29, 2014
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Well Barb, I made a bet with myself and you lost.
Let us by all means preach a full-orbed Gospel and declare to the perishing what God in the Person of His Son has done for them through His death upon the Cross - W.E. Vine
From The Collected Writings of W.E Vine, Volume 4, p.129 Also, a footnote from page 128 reads: "He is not merely a spirit, as the International Bible Students' Association teaches."Mung
May 29, 2014
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Barb:
If orthodox Christianity claims that Jesus died on a cross and their Bible translations reflect this belief, then they’re going to have to explain why they chose to translate the word stauros as “cross” instead of “pole”, which is its true definition.
Even the Watchtower doesn't translate it as pole. It translates it as "torture stake." So much for "true definitions." And see my above post as to what's true today may not be true tomorrow.Mung
May 29, 2014
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Barb:
That should clear things up.
Hardly. You cite a document that admits to the claims but says that they were not made in Jehovah's name so you can safely pretend they didn't happen? What do you think that clears up?
Unlike many major religions, the Witnesses’ beliefs are dynamic. They seek to understand and comprehend the Bible. This has, over time, necessitated changes in their beliefs as they sought a deeper understanding of the scriptures.
Then perhaps they, and you, should exhibit a bit more humility and a little less dogmatism about these beliefs, as what you believe today could change tomorrow. Tomorrow the organization might change their mind about stauros and you would have to go along, after arguing here (rather strenuously I might add) that the current doctrine is "the truth." Well, it may be true for today, but that doesn't mean it was true in the past, nor does it mean that it will be true in the future. Imagine believing that Jesus was crucified on a cross and arguing strenuously for that position only to have It snatched out from under you by "new light," and then arguing strenuously that Jesus was hung on a tree and arguing strenuously for that position only to have It snatched out from under you by yet more "new light," and then arguing strenuously that Jesus was crucified on a stake... and on it goes ... what will it be next? Jesus was never crucified at all?Mung
May 29, 2014
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Mung,
Not only is it false it deserves a big so what. Even you say the “torture stake” doctrine didn’t come along until 1936 and later, so if I want to quote the doctrine from the JW’s own writings what’s wrong with a quote from 1936? And if we want to show that the doctrine arose before W.E Vine’s Expository Dictionary was even published, so we know that your reliance on the quote from Vine is anachronistic, we’ll need to go back before 1940/1948. And if we want to show that the doctrine was not always part of the JW’s beliefs, we’ll need to go back to before it arose, won’t we?
Do you actually have a point to make? No?
And if we want to document the JW’s false prophecies about the end of the world, we’ll need to go back to when they were made, wouldn’t we? And even to discuss the 1975 date requires we go back at least 40 years, not to mention the 1925 date, the 1918 date, and the 1894 date. For a few years leading up to 1914, they felt that something was going to happen, but they weren’t sure exactly what. Again, false. But I’d need to quote JW documents more than 50 years old. Is that ok with you?
Here’s an explanation for you, from the Awake! Magazine of March 22, 1993: "Jehovah’s Witnesses, in their eagerness for Jesus’ second coming, have suggested dates that turned out to be incorrect. Because of this, some have called them false prophets. Never in these instances, however, did they presume to originate predictions ‘in the name of Jehovah.’ Never did they say, ‘These are the words of Jehovah.’ The Watchtower, the official journal of Jehovah’s Witnesses, has said: “We have not the gift of prophecy.” (January 1883, page 425) “Nor would we have our writings reverenced or regarded as infallible.” (December 15, 1896, page 306) The Watchtower has also said that the fact that some have Jehovah’s spirit “does not mean those now serving as Jehovah’s witnesses are inspired. It does not mean that the writings in this magazine The Watchtower are inspired and infallible and without mistakes.” (May 15, 1947, page 157) “The Watchtower does not claim to be inspired in its utterances, nor is it dogmatic.” (August 15, 1950, page 263) “The brothers preparing these publications are not infallible. Their writings are not inspired as are those of Paul and the other Bible writers. (2 Tim. 3:16) And so, at times, it has been necessary, as understanding became clearer, to correct views. (Prov. 4:18)”—February 15, 1981, page 19." That should clear things up.
Like I said, this is false, and can be shown to be false from the JW’s own website. One Hundred Years Ago – ?1914 The year that the Bible Students had been anticipating for decades had finally arrived, and they were hard at work in the ministry. The End of the Gentile Times The Bible Students believed that “the times of the Gentiles,” spoken of in Luke 21:24 (King James Version), would end about October 1, 1914. As October drew near, anticipation increased. Some Bible Students even carried a countdown card so that they could mark off each passing day. Many felt that they would be called beyond the veil, or to heaven, on that date. On the morning of October 2, 1914, Brother Russell entered the Bethel dining room and announced to the Bethel family: “The Gentile Times have ended; their kings have had their day.” Some of those present would have recognized those words, which were based on song 171 in their songbook Hymns of the Millennial Dawn. Since 1879, the Bible Students had been singing “The Gentile times are closing,” but those words were no longer true, since the Gentile Times, or “the appointed times of the nations,” had indeed ended. (Luke 21:24) In time, our songbooks reflected this important change.
Yes, and…? They knew that the gentile times were ending, but they weren’t sure exactly what was going to happen on the world scene.
The JW’s own history shows Jesus on a cross. Photo-Drama: A 100-Year-Old Epic of Faith See page 69 (PDF): Scenario of the Photo Drama of Creation So it’s plain to see that in the Charles Taze Russell era the Bible Students understood stauros to mean a cross. It was only later that this was changed by the JW’s and their need to find a “scholarly” basis for the change arose. So where did the change come from, and why?
I believe this was answered on the other thread. Unlike many major religions, the Witnesses’ beliefs are dynamic. They seek to understand and comprehend the Bible. This has, over time, necessitated changes in their beliefs as they sought a deeper understanding of the scriptures. Here’s the article referenced in the other thread: http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2008168#h=0:0-12:50 From the book Jehovah’s Witnesses: Proclaimers of God’s Kingdom (published in 1993): “For years, Bible Students wore a cross and crown as a badge of identification, and this symbol was on the front cover of the “Watch Tower” from 1891 to 1931. But in 1928 it was emphasized that not a decorative symbol but one’s activity as a witness showed he was a Christian. In 1936 it was pointed out that the evidence indicates that Christ died on a stake, not a two-beamed cross.” And again note that the scholars cited here and in the other thread agree that stauros properly translated means stake or pole and not cross. If orthodox Christianity claims that Jesus died on a cross and their Bible translations reflect this belief, then they’re going to have to explain why they chose to translate the word stauros as “cross” instead of “pole”, which is its true definition.Barb
May 29, 2014
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The JW's own history shows Jesus on a cross. Photo-Drama: A 100-Year-Old Epic of Faith See page 69 (PDF): Scenario of the Photo Drama of Creation So it's plain to see that in the Charles Taze Russell era the Bible Students understood stauros to mean a cross. It was only later that this was changed by the JW's and their need to find a "scholarly" basis for the change arose. So where did the change come from, and why?Mung
May 29, 2014
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Barb:
For a few years leading up to 1914, they felt that something was going to happen, but they weren’t sure exactly what.
Like I said, this is false, and can be shown to be false from the JW's own website. One Hundred Years Ago - ?1914
The year that the Bible Students had been anticipating for decades had finally arrived, and they were hard at work in the ministry.
The End of the Gentile Times The Bible Students believed that “the times of the Gentiles,” spoken of in Luke 21:24 (King James Version), would end about October 1, 1914. As October drew near, anticipation increased. Some Bible Students even carried a countdown card so that they could mark off each passing day. Many felt that they would be called beyond the veil, or to heaven, on that date. On the morning of October 2, 1914, Brother Russell entered the Bethel dining room and announced to the Bethel family: “The Gentile Times have ended; their kings have had their day.” Some of those present would have recognized those words, which were based on song 171 in their songbook Hymns of the Millennial Dawn. Since 1879, the Bible Students had been singing “The Gentile times are closing,” but those words were no longer true, since the Gentile Times, or “the appointed times of the nations,” had indeed ended. (Luke 21:24) In time, our songbooks reflected this important change.
And be sure to check out the "countdown card:"
The “Be Thou Faithful Unto Death” countdown card was used by some in their resolve to remain faithful to the end.
Note also the section: The “Photo-Drama” Attracts Millions See the cross and crown (not a stake) at about 38 seconds in.Mung
May 29, 2014
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Barb:
The only things you have quoted are books written more than 50 years ago.
That's simply false. Not only is it false it deserves a big so what. Even you say the "torture stake" doctrine didn't come along until 1936 and later, so if I want to quote the doctrine from the JW's own writings what's wrong with a quote from 1936? And if we want to show that the doctrine arose before W.E Vine's Expository Dictionary was even published, so we know that your reliance on the quote from Vine is anachronistic, we'll need to go back before 1940/1948. And if we want to show that the doctrine was not always part of the JW's beliefs, we'll need to go back to before it arose, won't we? And if we want to document the JW's false prophecies about the end of the world, we'll need to go back to when they were made, wouldn't we? And even to discuss the 1975 date requires we go back at least 40 years, not to mention the 1925 date, the 1918 date, and the 1894 date.
For a few years leading up to 1914, they felt that something was going to happen, but they weren’t sure exactly what.
Again, false. But I'd need to quote JW documents more than 50 years old. Is that ok with you?Mung
May 29, 2014
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Mung continues,
Being lied to and lying to yourself are quite different, wouldn’t you agree?
Lying is lying, no matter who does it.
How do you propose to tell the difference?
That would all depend on what the lie involves. This is where religion has the upper hand, so to speak, over materialism because religion can point to an objective standard of right and wrong. For me, and for many Christians, it’s what the Bible states. If the Bible states that murder is wrong, then murder is wrong. Most countries agree with this, and have passed laws making murder illegal.
I can quote all your favorite watchtower mags and all your favorite watchtower “translations.” What you are allowed to believe as a JW is not up to you, not if you want to remain in that cult.
The only things you have quoted are books written more than 50 years ago. What I believe as a Jehovah’s Witness comes from the Bible. That’s why I’ve quoted it and used translations other than the NWT. But you conveniently ignored that point. And what you are allowed to believe comes from where? Creeds, for example? Church fathers, maybe?
Barb, why did the Watchtower Cult predict the end of the world in 1975? Were they wrong?
I already explained that they didn’t predict the end of the world. You have also not cited any WTs proving this (patently false) statement. Why? Because there aren’t any. Try again.
Why did the Watchtower Cult claim that Jesus returned in 1914? Were they wrong?
For a few years leading up to 1914, they felt that something was going to happen, but they weren’t sure exactly what. They do believe that Jesus was enthroned as king of God’s kingdom in 1914, based on biblical chronology as well as secular history which shows that 1914 was a turning point in human history. Try reading a non-apostate site if you want accurate information (http://www.jw.org) about what the Witnesses believe about 1914. I won’t hold my breath, though, you seem perfectly happy believing lies about the Witnesses and what they believe. Question for you: being lied to about the Witnesses...is that different than lying to yourself about the Witnesses? Ooh, “watchtower cult”…how edgy.Barb
May 28, 2014
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Barb, why did the Watchtower Cult predict the end of the world in 1975? Were they wrong? Why did the Watchtower Cult claim that Jesus returned in 1914? Were they wrong?Mung
May 23, 2014
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Barb:
If I’ve been lied to, Mung, it’s by you and nobody else. You really have no idea what you’re talking about when it comes to my religious beliefs.
Being lied to and lying to yourself are quite different, wouldn't you agree? How do you propose to tell the difference? I can quote all your favorite watchtower mags and all your favorite watchtower "translations." What you are allowed to believe as a JW is not up to you, not if you want to remain in that cult.Mung
May 23, 2014
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I warned you to flee that cult. So you ignored my clear warning to you that you were in a cult, and that you should flee that cult, and now attempt to make it appear that I had not figured out that you are in that cult. You have been lied to. Do not make yourself a party to their lies. Do not become a liar in defense of their lies. Flee. Giving me warnings to flee a "cult" (which is nothing of the sort, not that you'd know that) without giving me good reason to do so is pointless. You haven't answered any of my points regarding the NWT or the scholars who agree with its translation. You haven't answered any of the cited scriptures that prove my points. If I've been lied to, Mung, it's by you and nobody else. You really have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to my religious beliefs.Barb
May 22, 2014
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Barb:
Yes, I am one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. If you haven’t figured that out by now, you never will.
I warned you to flee that cult. So you ignored my clear warning to you that you were in a cult, and that you should flee that cult, and now attempt to make it appear that I had not figured out that you are in that cult. You have been lied to. Do not make yourself a party to their lies. Do not become a liar in defense of their lies. Flee.Mung
May 21, 2014
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KF writes,
And, underlying, we see that the historic tradition is reasonable, not yet another sign of alleged syncretism with pagan elements or the like; a common dismissive accusation. Yes, some of that happened, but that is not the case with everything. Nor is everything that is pagan in roots automatically wrong or suspect . . . try the alphabet we are using, the roots of the language we are using, and the system of decimal numbers we are using.
Your quote mentions that “Not everything that is pagan is automatically wrong..” Really? So Paganism and Christianity are both true? That’s not what John 17:17 states. You cannot combine paganism and Christianity; you end up with flawed versions of both religions. And the cross does have pre-Christian origins, as I noted earlier. My previous post noted that even the ancient Egyptians used a cross, known commonly as an ankh, which was a symbol of life. Eventually, this cross was adopted and used extensively by the Coptic Church. According to The Catholic Encyclopedia, “the primitive form of the cross seems to have been that of the so-called ‘gamma’ cross (crux gammata), better known to Orientalists and students of prehistoric archæology by its Sanskrit name, swastika.” This sign was widely used among Hindus in India and Buddhists throughout Asia and is still seen in decorations and ornaments in those areas. Continuing through history, we find that Constantine had a lot to do with the cross being adopted as a symbol of Christianity: in 312 C.E., while on one of his military campaigns, he had a vision of a cross superimposed on the sun along with the motto in Latin “in hoc vince” (by this conquer). Some time later, a “Christian” sign was emblazoned on the standards, shields, and armor of his army. Constantine purportedly converted to Christianity, though he was not baptized until 25 years later on his deathbed. His motive was questioned by some. “He acted rather as if he were converting Christianity into what he thought most likely to be accepted by his subjects as a catholic [universal] religion, than as if he had been converted to the teachings of Jesus the Nazarene,” says the book The Non-Christian Cross. Since then, crosses of many forms and shapes have come into use. For example, The Illustrated Bible Dictionary tells us that what is called St. Anthony’s cross “was shaped like a capital T, thought by some to be derived from the symbol of the [Babylonian] god Tammuz, the letter tau.” There was also the St. Andrew’s cross, which is in the shape of the letter X, and the familiar two-beamed cross with the crossbar lowered. This latter type, called the Latin cross, is erroneously “held by tradition to be the shape of the cross on which our Lord died.” Historians and researchers have found no evidence to validate the use of the cross among the early Christians. Interestingly, the book History of the Cross quotes one late 17th-century writer who asked: “Can it be pleasing to the blessed Jesus to behold His disciples glorying in the image of that instrument of capital punishment on which He [supposedly] patiently and innocently suffered, despising the shame?” Most importantly, worship acceptable to God does not require objects or images. “What agreement does God’s temple have with idols?” Paul asked. (2 Corinthians 6:14-16) Nowhere do the Scriptures suggest that a Christian’s worship should include the use of a likeness of the instrument used to impale Jesus.—Compare Matthew 15:3; Mark 7:13.Barb
May 20, 2014
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Mung continues on his quixotic quest:
Are you a JW? Did the end come in 1975? From 1966 to 1975, the Watchtower regularly implied that Armageddon would arrive in 1975. However, ask one of Jehovah’s Witnesses about this date and they will invariably deny there ever being such statements. The following exhaustive list of quotes show the Watchtower left little to the imagination regarding 1975. 1975 – Watchtower Quotes Was the 1975 date wrong because the 1914 date was wrong? Do false dates arise from false doctrines?
Yes, I am one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. If you haven’t figured that out by now, you never will. I love it when people who are completely uneducated about what the Witnesses believe trot out things such as “1975!” The fact that you have no clue what the Witnesses actually believe makes your argumentation in this thread amusing, to say the least. You have not refuted one biblical scholar that I quoted who thinks that the NWT is a good translation. You have not refuted one scripture that I cited showing that (a) Jesus rose in spirit form to heaven upon his resurrection or that (b) he was impaled upon a stake, not a cross. And I cited scriptures from other translations, not just the NWT. If you want to have a serious discussion about theology, you need to address these issues first. The simple truth is according to biblical chronology, 1975 would have marked 6,000 years of mankind’s existence on the earth. There is absolutely no reference to Armageddon in any Watchtower article anywhere that relates it to 1975. I’ve read it. You haven’t. If some witnesses—and I do know some personally who believed the end would come in 1975—believed this, then they weren’t following Bible chronology. They were making up their own minds about what the significance of that year was. This comes from The Watchtower of January 1, 2013. It says all that needs to be said on the matter: Jehovah’s Witnesses have had wrong expectations about when the end would come. Like Jesus’ first-century disciples, we have sometimes looked forward to the fulfillment of prophecy ahead of God’s timetable. (Luke 19:11; Acts 1:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, 2) We agree with the sentiment of longtime Witness A. H. Macmillan, who said: “I learned that we should admit our mistakes and continue searching God’s Word for more enlightenment.” Why, then, do we continue to highlight the nearness of the end? Because we take seriously Jesus’ words: “Keep looking, keep awake.” The alternative, to be found “sleeping” by Jesus, would prevent us from gaining his favor. (Mark 13:33, 36) Why? Consider this example: A lookout in a fire tower might see what he thinks is a wisp of smoke on the horizon and sound what proves to be a false alarm. Later, though, his alertness could save lives. Likewise, we have had some wrong expectations about the end. But we are more concerned with obeying Jesus and saving lives than with avoiding criticism. Jesus’ command to “give a thorough witness” compels us to warn others about the end.—Acts 10:42. We believe that even more important than focusing on when the end will come, we must be confident that it will come, and we must act accordingly. We take seriously the words of Habakkuk 2:3, which says: “Even if [the end] should delay [compared to what you thought], keep in expectation of it; for it will without fail come true. It will not be late.” Mung then goes on to cite several non-Witness websites that claim to have information about what the Witnesses believe. This is patently stupid, and Mung should know better. Using references with an obvious axe to grind against a particular group proves nothing. It’s like using Pharyngula to prove evolution is true without bothering to consult any other websites, like UD. If anyone wants to know what the Witnesses actually believe, they should visit http://www.jw.org, which is the official website of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Don’t bother with websites run by people who have an agenda against the Witnesses. That only proves that your prejudice is clouding your thinking skills.
One true irony is that as a JW Barb must accept these false teachings of the JW leadership, but deny that the same words meant the very same thing when spoken by Jesus and the apostles! When Jesus and the apostles said “soon” it did not mean soon, but when the JW leadership says “soon” it means soon. When Jesus and the apostles said “this generation” it did not mean “this generation” but when the JW leadership says “this generation” it means this generation.
Note that Mung hasn’t cited any scriptures relating to Jesus’s speaking of the “generation” that would see the end. I wonder why. Is it because he hasn’t read them? Anyhow, the Witnesses freely admit that their beliefs have been clarified throughout the years. I mentioned this upthread or in another thread—if science is self-correcting, then religion also can be self-correcting. The Catholic Church acknowledged its mistake regarding Galileo. The Witnesses acknowledge that they aren’t prophets. However, they do spend far more time studying the Bible and attempting to understand its message than Mung ever has. From the Watchtower of April 15, 2010: For example, consider our understanding of those who make up “this generation” mentioned by Jesus. (Read Matthew 24:32-34.) To what generation did Jesus refer? The article “Christ’s Presence—What Does It Mean to You?” explained that Jesus was referring, not to the wicked, but to his disciples, who were soon to be anointed with holy spirit.* Jesus’ anointed followers, both in the first century and in our day, would be the ones who would not only see the sign but also discern its meaning—that Jesus “is near at the doors.” What does this explanation mean to us? Although we cannot measure the exact length of “this generation,” we do well to keep in mind several things about the word “generation”: It usually refers to people of varying ages whose lives overlap during a particular time period; it is not excessively long; and it has an end. (Ex. 1:6) How, then, are we to understand Jesus’ words about “this generation”? He evidently meant that the lives of the anointed who were on hand when the sign began to become evident in 1914 would overlap with the lives of other anointed ones who would see the start of the great tribulation. That generation had a beginning, and it surely will have an end. The fulfillment of the various features of the sign clearly indicate that the tribulation must be near. This understanding was again clarified in July 2013.
No such thing has been established, that’s just your wishful thinking. Prima facie, the JW’s themselves admit it’s inferior, that’s why they keep revising it.
The King James version was recently re-issued and revised; is it also wrong. You haven’t refuted any scholar who suggests that the NWT is a good translation. Why don’t you get back to me when you’ve done so? You might take note that the NKJV uses the name Jehovah (http://www.clevelandbanner.com/view/full_story/16962037/article-WRIGHT-WAY--A-New-King-James-Bible-?instance=main_article). Go ahead and explain, using non-biased references, why this is wrong.
Gangas, George: No training in biblical languages. Gangas was a Turkish national who knew Modern Greek. Translated Watchtower publications into Modern Greek. Henschel, Milton: No training in biblical languages. Klein, Karl: No training in biblical languages. Knorr, Nathan: No training in biblical languages Schroeder, Albert: No training in biblical languages. Schroeder majored in mechanical engineering for three years before dropping out. No wonder it’s inferior.
It’s not inferior according to a professor of religion (BeDuhn) or a biblical scholar (Kedar). You have absolutely no knowledge of what level of education these men have had. Even if their training wasn’t in Koine Greek, they do have the one thing that all the Bible writers had: God’s holy spirit. Remember, the Bible was itself written by humans, including a tax collector (Matthew), a shepherd-king (David), a well-educated tentmaker (Paul), fishermen (Peter and James), a wise king (Solomon), and a person who harvested figs (Amos). None had any special training in writing or languages, yet they wrote what God told them under inspiration to write. As of 2013, The New World Translation is now available, in whole or in part, in over 116 languages, and more than 178,545,862 copies have been printed. And just in case anyone is wondering, here are the texts used to translate the NWT: Hebrew Text: The New World Translation of the Hebrew Scriptures (1953-1960) was based on Biblia Hebraica, by Rudolf Kittel. Since that time, updated editions of the Hebrew text, namely, Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia and Biblia Hebraica Quinta, have included recent research based on the Dead Sea Scrolls and other ancient manuscripts. These scholarly works reproduce the Leningrad Codex in the main text along with footnotes that contain comparative wording from other sources, including the Samaritan Pentateuch, the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Greek Septuagint, the Aramaic Targums, the Latin Vulgate, and the Syriac Peshitta. Both Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia and Biblia Hebraica Quinta were consulted when preparing the present revision of the New World Translation. Greek Text: In the late 19th century, scholars B. F. Westcott and F.J.A. Hort compared existing Bible manuscripts and fragments as they prepared the Greek master text that they felt most closely reflected the original writings. In the mid-20th century, the New World Bible Translation Committee used that master text as the basis for its translation. Other early papyri, thought to date back to the second and third centuries C.E., were also used. Since then, more papyri have become available. In addition, master texts such as those by Nestle and Aland and by the United Bible Societies reflect recent scholarly studies. Some of the findings of this research were incorporated into this present revision. Note that these texts have also been used by other translators. Also note that “The BHS is in worldwide use today and is esteemed among all denominations as a highly reliable edition of the Hebrew Bible. It provides the basis both for clerical training and for all reputable biblical translations.” (http://www.academic-bible.com/home/scholarly-editions/hebrew-bible/bhs/) That Mung has chosen not to directly refute any statements I’ve made regarding the Bible—or even cited scriptures from other translations of the Bible—shows his scholarship is lacking. He refuses to debate the real issues because he cannot. It’s right there in black and white, clear as crystal. So instead he takes a cowardly way out: by attacking the beliefs of the person he’s debating. This is both sad and pathetic.Barb
May 20, 2014
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Optimus:
In other words, being quick to judgement is not a virtue.
Physician, heal thyself.
If anyone wants to have a good-faith, civilized, adult conversation about Biblical scholarship and theology, I’m more than happy to oblige. Biblical theology is my passion.
Are you in possession of the relevant texts?Mung
May 19, 2014
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@ Mung & Onlookers for the record I've noted with considerable unease this argument unfolding over the last few days. My unease arises from the tone and polemical slant, especially arising from Mung, who though no doubt sincere in his defense of what he would consider "correct" Biblical theology, has made a number of statements harshly critical of Jehovah's Witnesses. Normally I would ignore such statements, but as UD is a public discussion forum that I enjoy commenting at, I felt a sense of responsibility to set the record straight. A few statements are in order: (1) I have little to no interest in arguing with anyone. Arguments aren't productive; they tend to increase fervor and minimize reason. (2) Internet discussions of theology tend toward being of poor quality because persons often feel as if they can treat others with a lack of restraint and basic human decency that would simply be unacceptable in a face-to-face context. (3) It's very easy to find biased appraisals of any religious group on the Internet - that's the nature of the beast. Religion tends to be controversial, and there's no shortage of sites that target Mormons, Catholics, Muslims, Jews, Jehovah's Witnesses, various Protestant denominations, etc. (4) Since some of this unfortunate episode is due at least in part to the odious behavior of a commenter who uses the moniker "JWTruthinLove", let this serve as a public rebuke: Your behavior on UD has consistently been boorish, unseemly, and, regrettably, in some instances bordering on unchristian. While your motives are likely sincere, your approach to discussing serious matters of Scripture has been needlessly inflammatory and insensitive. You would do well to meditate on the counsel of Colossians 4:6; Proverbs 15:1,28; James 1:19, 20; and perhaps of most import Matthew 7:12 - taking note of the example and direct counsel of our Lord and King Jesus Christ. Never forget that every human, Witness or not, is made in the image of Jehovah God, and thus possesses intrinsic dignity. It is also generally true of people that they hold their religious beliefs, whatever these may be, in sincerity - not out of injurious motives. Please give these reminders careful thought before engaging in any further reckless posting. (5) Mung, you are entirely welcome to hold and express your own view of what constitutes correct theology. But I'm genuinely shocked by your aggressive attitude. It's one thing to be confident in your views - I am certainly confident in my own. But to accuse people of abject deceitfulness and contempt for truth because they hold a minority view is uncharitable, to say the least. (6) I am proud to be part of the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses. I have spent decades engaged in serious reading and careful study of various Bible translations. My personal collection includes the King James Version, The Revised Standard Version, The Douay Bible, An American Translation, Benjamin Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott, The Living Bible, and The New World Translation. I have read the Bible in its entirety more times than I've kept count of - last year alone I read the New Testament in its entirety, much of it twice, using different translations to improve comprehension. This year I've read through the Torah once already and will likely do so twice. I say this not to boast of my own knowledge, but merely to establish that I, as one of Jehovah's Witnesses, have a deep and abiding love for Scripture and have nothing to fear from using many different translations of the Bible. I have made a good faith effort to ground my theology solidly on a painstaking reading of Scripture. (7) Mung, you would do well to carefully consider this Bible principle:
"To answer before one hears is one's folly and shame." Proverbs 18:13 An American Translation
In other words, being quick to judgement is not a virtue. Listen before criticizing. It may be that what seems to be a hard and fast disagreement may turn out to be a mere misunderstanding. I've often found this to be the case in speaking to people about matters of theology. And be careful about what sources on the internet you trust. As it is written in Proverbs 14:15 "The simple man trusts everything; but the sensible man pays heed to his steps." (8) Your appraisal of the New World Translation is unfair. As Barb has correctly pointed out, numerous scholars have praised the work for its conservativeness, care in rendering verb tenses, and modern English. Its most prominent feature - usage of the Divine Name in its common English form - is in no way inappropriate or wholly unique. Byington, the American Standard Version, the Living Bible, old King James Bibles (in four places), the Emphatic Diaglott (ironically - since you attempted to use it in critique of the New World Translation), and numerous other Bibles feature some form of the Divine Name. Furthermore, it is indisputable that the Name appears literally thousands of times in the Masoretic Text and is frequent in the Dead Sea Scrolls (see the Isaiah and Psalms scrolls). If you have a genuine interest in reading the text, you can do so online for free at jw.org. Additionally, if you want a balanced, scholarly comparison of the New World Translation with other modern translations, see the book Truth in Translation by Jason BeDuhn. You can buy it on Amazon or check it out from a library. (9) This is already overlong, so I'll say this in closing, Mung et al: If anyone wants to have a good-faith, civilized, adult conversation about Biblical scholarship and theology, I'm more than happy to oblige. Biblical theology is my passion. But I ask as a courtesy that you stop trashing my beliefs on a site that I enjoy reading primarily for science and philosophy discussions. Treat others as you would wish to be treated. ThanksOptimus
May 19, 2014
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@Mung Don't you think you're being a little too harsh?VunderGuy
May 19, 2014
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The Watchtower Society first published the New World Translation of the New Testament in 1950. Their complete Bible was published first in 1961, with subsequent revisions published in 1970 and 1984. The Watchtower was always quite secretive about the composition of their translation committee, claiming that credit should be given to God and the truth, rather than the translators. In the October 22, 1989 issue of Awake!, the Watchtower Society’s magazine publication, the society recited the words of their founder Charles T. Russell, “It is the truth rather than its servant that should be honored…” However, former members of the Society revealed the identities of the translation committee members as Frederick W. Franz, Nathan H. Knorr, George D. Gangas, Albert D. Schroeder, Milton G. Henschel, and Karl Klein. A review of their qualifications is disturbing:
The New World Translation: The Watchtower Society's Corrupt Bible Gangas, George: No training in biblical languages. Gangas was a Turkish national who knew Modern Greek. Translated Watchtower publications into Modern Greek. Henschel, Milton: No training in biblical languages. Klein, Karl: No training in biblical languages. Knorr, Nathan: No training in biblical languages Schroeder, Albert: No training in biblical languages. Schroeder majored in mechanical engineering for three years before dropping out. No wonder it's inferior.Mung
May 19, 2014
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Barb:
It’s already been established that it’s not inferior.
No such thing has been established, that's just your wishful thinking. Prima facie, the JW's themselves admit it's inferior, that's why they keep revising it. http://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/appendix-a/nwt-revision-features/
Religious cults are known for fabricating their own versions of the Bible or altering the Scriptures to support their own doctrines. The Watchtower Society is perhaps the most prime example of this cult characteristic. Through the Watchtower publication "The New World Translation", loyal followers are tricked into believing this uneducated fabrication is scholarly and accurate, restoring Jehovah's name where the rest of "Christendom" has changed it to Lord. Referred to as "the Bible", Jehovah's Witnesses are convinced their translation is extremely accurate, in the belief that God only speaks through the Watchtower Society. As we examine this publication, our intent is not to discourage individuals from reading God's Word the Holy Bible. However, we need to inform all to pay close attention to the peculiar method of writing, the sinister motive, and the deliberate manipulation used by the Watchtower Society to trick Jehovah's Witnesses into believing that the New World Translation is the Holy Bible when it is not.
Six Screens of the Watchtower - New World TranslationMung
May 19, 2014
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Since its 1879 inception, Watchtower has preached "the End" is soon, originally predicting it would occur in 1914 and then 1925. This claim was subsequently adjusted to say the End will be very shortly, culminating in billions of humans being killed at God's war of Armageddon. Only Jehovah's Witnesses will be saved, surviving to live forever on this earth. It is common for leaders of fundamentalist religions to teach that only they know truth and their followers alone are worthy of salvation.
JWfacts makes it as simple as possible to determine if Jehovah's Witnesses have "the truth." One true irony is that as a JW Barb must accept these false teachings of the JW leadership, but deny that the same words meant the very same thing when spoken by Jesus and the apostles! When Jesus and the apostles said "soon" it did not mean soon, but when the JW leadership says "soon" it means soon. When Jesus and the apostles said "this generation" it did not mean "this generation" but when the JW leadership says "this generation" it means this generation.Mung
May 19, 2014
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Are you a JW? Did the end come in 1975?
From 1966 to 1975, the Watchtower regularly implied that Armageddon would arrive in 1975. However, ask one of Jehovah's Witnesses about this date and they will invariably deny there ever being such statements. The following exhaustive list of quotes show the Watchtower left little to the imagination regarding 1975.
1975 - Watchtower Quotes Was the 1975 date wrong because the 1914 date was wrong? Do false dates arise from false doctrines?Mung
May 19, 2014
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Mung continues,
Here they admit to doctoring the text to fit their doctrine: The New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures does not follow this common practice. It uses the name Jehovah a total of 237 times in the Christian Greek Scriptures. In deciding to do this, the translators took into consideration two important factors: (1) The Greek manuscripts we possess today are not the originals. Of the thousands of copies in existence today, most were made at least two centuries after the originals were composed. (2) By that time, those copying the manuscripts either replaced the Tetragrammaton with Ky-ri-os, the Greek word for “Lord,” or they copied from manuscripts where this had already been done> The New World Bible Translation Committee determined that there is compelling evidence that the Tetragrammaton did appear in the original Greek manuscripts. http://www.jw.org/en/publicati.....ptures/#p1 So yes, it’s inferior. The translators render in English not what the text says, but what they wish the text said.
It’s already been established that it’s not inferior. Refute the scholars who agree with me, and then we’ll talk. I love how you quote from an article written by the Witnesses and fail to see the point. The entire point of that article was that the Tetragrammaton, God’s name, was found in early manuscripts but was taken out by translators. The Witnesses restored what had been removed. Did you bother reading the article? No? Here are quotes from the article Mung cites:
Recently, the 2004 edition of the popular New Living Translation made this comment in its preface under the heading “The Rendering of Divine Names”: “We have generally rendered the tetragrammaton (YHWH) consistently as ‘the LORD,’ utilizing a form with small capitals that is common among English translations. This will distinguish it from the name ?adonai, which we render ‘Lord.’” Then when commenting on the New Testament, it says: “The Greek word kurios is consistently translated ‘Lord,’ except that it is translated ‘LORD’ wherever the New Testament text explicitly quotes from the Old Testament, and the text there has it in small capitals.” (Italics ours.) The translators of this Bible therefore acknowledge that the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) should be represented in these New Testament quotes. Interestingly, under the heading “Tetragrammaton in the New Testament,” The Anchor Bible Dictionary makes this comment: “There is some evidence that the Tetragrammaton, the Divine Name, Yahweh, appeared in some or all of the O[ld] T[estament] quotations in the N[ew] T[estament] when the NT documents were first penned.” And scholar George Howard says: “Since the Tetragram was still written in the copies of the Greek Bible [the Septuagint] which made up the Scriptures of the early church, it is reasonable to believe that the N[ew] T[estament] writers, when quoting from Scripture, preserved the Tetragram within the biblical text.”
The only thing that is inferior, Mung, is your reading comprehension level. The article proves my point, so thanks for linking to it!
So what’s the point of arguing with a JW over Greek words when their practice is to make the Greek text say whatever they want it to say?
Here are a few more translators that did exactly what the Witnesses did (and this is from an appendix in the 2013 edition of the NWT): Recognized Bible translators have used God’s name in the Christian Greek Scriptures Some of these translators did so long before the New World Translation was produced. These translators and their works include: A Literal Translation of the New Testament . . . From the Text of the Vatican Manuscript, by Herman Heinfetter (1863) The Emphatic Diaglott, by Benjamin Wilson (1864) The Epistles of Paul in Modern English, by George Barker Stevens (1898) St. Paul’s Epistle to the Romans, by W. G. Rutherford (1900) The New Testament Letters, by J.W.C. Wand, Bishop of London (1946) In addition, in a Spanish translation in the early 20th century, translator Pablo Besson used “Jehová” at Jude 14, and nearly 100 footnotes in his translation suggest the divine name as a likely rendering. Long before those translations, Hebrew versions of the Christian Greek Scriptures from the 16th century onward used the Tetragrammaton in many passages. In the German language alone, at least 11 versions use “Jehovah” (or the transliteration of the Hebrew “Yahweh”) in the Christian Greek Scriptures, while four translators add the name in parentheses after “Lord.” More than 70 German translations use the divine name in footnotes or commentaries. Are all these translators wrong for using God’s name, Mung? Can you prove that? I have the Kingdom Interlinear translation. Linking to “Crisis of Conscience” proves nothing. Reading only one side of the argument isn’t objective, and you know it. Try being open-minded for a change.
John 17:3 (NWT) This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, Any thoughts in why this verse got changed in the latest revision of the NWT?
Previously, the text stated “their taking in knowledge of you”. The Watchtower of October 15, 2013, explains: “According to Greek-language scholars, the Greek expression translated “taking in knowledge” can also be translated “should keep on knowing” or “should continue knowing.” The two meanings are complementary, and both are important. The footnote to John 17:3 in the Reference Bible gives the alternative rendering “their knowing you.” Thus, “taking in knowledge” refers to an ongoing process that results in the privileged state of “knowing” God. Knowing the greatest Person in the universe, however, involves much more than having a mental grasp of God’s qualities and purpose. Knowing Jehovah includes having a close bond of love with him and with fellow believers.”Barb
May 19, 2014
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F/N: Mass estimate of cross-piece, at 6 x 4, 6 ft long: Wood density ranges typically 0.4 - 1.3, and olive wood -- used for the cross in the case that has been archaeologically recovered -- seems to range 0.72 - 0.99; let's use 0.7. At 2.54 cm/in, a cubic inch is 16.39 cc, or mass in grams 11.5. 6 x 4 x 72 = 1,728 cu in . . . 1 cu ft Mass: 19.8 kg, 43.7 lb (and no I am not going to bother with mass in slugs vs weight in lb, let's use the lb as a mass unit) (And a 6 x 4 is a low estimate on dimensions, we can see 50 - 100 lb as reasonable.) A badly beaten man [the beatings with the multi-thong wips with bone or metal in the ends often left the victim half dead with internal organs etc exposed . . . ~ 100 stripes of the comparable Russian knout were "equivalent" to a death sentence . . . ] may lug a weight like that for a while, but collapse, perhaps repeated, is understandable. The text, of course supports both the carrying of such a cross-piece and the collapses leading to impressing Simon of Cyrenica to carry the cross. The implications for how the Roman officers, troops and auxiliaries acted towards the colonised people of Judaea, are plain. (NB: The use of a "Lancia" -- a typical spear not the pilum -- to pierce Jesus' side points to an auxiliary unit, not the main Legions. It is reasonable to infer that Roman Officers would be integrated with such units, to give a bit of stiffening and discipline. A Centurion, in charge of the execution squad [and four is typical], is in reality a sort of super NCO, a warrant officer not generally promotable beyond that level. The callous crudity implicit in gambling at the foot of the cross over the dying man's woven one-piece underclothes speaks understated volumes.) Even at 6 x 6, 10 ft long [4320 cu in] . . . a low estimate [8 x 8 is probably more reasonable], at the same density, the upright would weigh in at 49.7 kg, or 109.5 lb. The two together, would weigh in at 150 lb. So, we have some rough but reasonable ideas of what we are dealing with here. A T or t cross is what is compatible with what the text speaks of when context is read with understanding, and the historical reports of carrying the cross-piece (and not the upright) are compatible with the weights we just saw. Given the pattern in language known as metonymy:
METONYMY: a figure of speech consisting of the use of the name of one thing for that of another of which it is an attribute or with which it is associated (as “crown” in “lands belonging to the crown”) [Merriam-Webster online]
. . . the use of "Stauros" -- lit. stake -- for crosses of diverse shape is consistent with the known shapes of crosses. No elaborate stories of crosses in the t or T sense being a late insertion is reasonable or required. And, underlying, we see that the historic tradition is reasonable, not yet another sign of alleged syncretism with pagan elements or the like; a common dismissive accusation. Yes, some of that happened, but that is not the case with everything. Nor is everything that is pagan in roots automatically wrong or suspect . . . try the alphabet we are using, the roots of the language we are using, and the system of decimal numbers we are using. Even, something that is almost certainly in error, the date of Christmas, becomes reasonable. Once, we see that a king or queen may have an official birthday that is not his/her personal one [as is the case with the current Queen in Britain], and when one realises that in the temperate northern zone, the shortest . . . darkest . . . day of the year is the winter solstice c. Dec 23 and light then begins to increase all the way to the summer solstice c June 23 [near enough to when Pentecost is celebrated], that makes a church calendar of activities that moves from nativity to passion and to the celebration of the descent of the Spirit in a way that links to that astronomical pattern a reasonable decision. That Christmas would then have been an alternative to Saturnalia, and Easter to Pagan Spring Festivals, would have been a reasonable response to cultural challenges. (Here, it is a challenge to have to keep out of a Saturnalia-tinged Christmas festival period that traces to the old Slavery period nine days Christmas holiday. A sound, socially positive Christmas festive season as an alternative that is clean of the problems, is a significant issue.) Finally, a bit of attention to context [which will often come through in translation quite well thank you] and some reasonable estimation will often help us understand more clearly what is going on. KFkairosfocus
May 19, 2014
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