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Adam and Eve and Bryan College: BioLogos strikes

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Some say 20% of faculty are leaving.

Students and faculty at Bryan are upset at a move last month by the school’s board of trustees to “clarify” that the college believes Adam and Eve were historical figures created directly by God. The board says the clarification does not change the school’s historical position on origins. But some at Bryan believe the board’s action was intended to force out professors who may be sympathetic to evolution, and think it was unfair to do so at a time when faculty contracts are due for renewal. …

An English professor at the school, Whit Jones, said the timing of the clarification had been a “puzzle” to many on faculty, but might have been sparked by recent writings from two of his colleagues: Kenneth Turner, a Bible professor, and Brian Eisenback, an associate professor of biology who graduated from Bryan College in 2002. Together, Turner and Eisenback are writing science education materials under a grant from The BioLogos Foundation, an organization in Grand Rapids, Mich., that promotes theistic evolution.

Theistic evolution, also called “evolutionary creation,” posits God used evolution to create biological life, including humans. Bryan’s original belief statement would seem to preclude theistic evolution for humans because it says mankind’s sin “incurred physical … death”—death being a necessary component for evolution.

Though some proponents of creationism or intelligent design would argue the case for evolution is flimsy, Turner and Eisenback wrote otherwise in a two-part article that appeared on the BioLogos website in December: “Macroevolution is robust and has multiple lines of evidence in support of it, including the fossil record and molecular biology. … The reality is that evolution is not a theory teetering on the edge of collapse. More.

The obvious problem, for a person who has been following the news stream, is that the fossil record and molecular biology so often do not agree. And “evolution” is not so much “a theory teetering on the edge of collapse” as a theory that doesn’t explain anything. That is, we say “evolved to do” when we really mean “does.”

Darwin’s followers, including BioLogians, get marks for their Darwinian piety, talking this way.

Laszlo BenczeBut Laszlo Bencze comments:

Apparently some former graduates of Bryan College are writing a science curriculum that will cover the full spectrum of views from hard core evolution to hard core creation. As best I can tell, the authors favor “theistic evolution” although they prefer the term “evolutionary creationism” which is the same thing. Here’s a definition from the article: “Theistic evolution, also called ‘evolutionary creation,’ posits God used evolution to create biological life, including humans.”

Let’s translate that into straightforward English. “God used a process which works perfectly without any intelligent agent to create biological life.” Another way of saying it is “God used a completely self-contained process which is not accessible to any agent to create life.”

We start to see the problem with these statements. The problem is God. The statements work so much better if we simply eliminate God, whose role seems limited to creating a contradiction.

“A process which works perfectly without any intelligent agency created life.” There. Now there’s no contradiction and the statement makes sense.

Or, if you prefer, “God, an agent of unlimited intelligence and act, created life.” That statement, too, is shorn of contradiction and makes sense.

But there’s no way to combine these two statements into a coherent and logical proposition.

Like a figure which is both a circle and a square at the same time in the same way, theistic evolution is a flat out contradiction and makes no sense.

Maybe that’s what makes it somehow feel so right to so many people these days. 😉
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Comments
Barb:
Did you refute the arguments made by the biblical scholars I posted earlier? No? Come back when you have. Until then, I’ll take their opinions over yours. They, at least, appear to be objective.
"argument" 1:
Dr. Benjamin Kedar, a Hebrew scholar in Israel, made a similar comment concerning the New World Translation. In 1989 he said: “This work reflects an honest endeavor to achieve an understanding of the text that is as accurate as possible. . . . I have never discovered in the New World Translation any biased intent to read something into the text that it does not contain.”
Which version of the NWT was he talking about Barb? Certainly not the 2013 version, it wasn't around in 1989. And his statement does not constitute an argument, so there's nothing there to refute. What's your source for this quote? If you expect me to refute "arguments" I need to know the source of those arguments. Are they from some Watchtower publication? Is the source accurately represented? For example, one online source admits that Kedar's quote can't be applied to the entire NWT. That's not readily apparent from the source you quoted.Mung
May 16, 2014
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Mung continues,
Yes of course it’s inferior. It tweaks the translation of the original languages to give them the JW’s very own spin.
No, it is not inferior. Did you refute the arguments made by the biblical scholars I posted earlier? No? Come back when you have. Until then, I’ll take their opinions over yours. They, at least, appear to be objective.
You can even track this throughout it’s various editions.
To my knowledge, there have only been a few. There’s actually a newer version that was released in 2013.
Cited from a translation specifically skewed to match the JW’s teaching. I’m not impressed.
Is your reading comprehension seriously impaired? I quoted specifically from other translations. Look at my post again. See the letters in italics next to the verses? Those aren’t from the NWT. I think this is all the proof I need that you didn’t even bother to read my post before replying. You—and your argument—both fail.
So you can’t know if your position is Scriptural or not.
What part of comparing scripture with scripture are you failing to understand? My position is scriptural because I USED SCRIPTURES FROM THE BIBLE—INCLUDING VARIOUS TRANSLATIONS—to back up my argument. Can you really not comprehend this point?
Take for instance the JW’s insistence in translating cross as stake. NWT: And we are witnesses of all the things he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem; but they did away with him by hanging him on a stake. The Emphatic Diaglott: 39 and we witnesses of all, which he did in both the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem; whom also they killed having hanged on a cross. Have you ever heard of this translation?
Yes, I have.
Let me suggest that you use this translation from now on instead of the NWT. It’s obviously approved of by the JW’s. Cheers
Let me suggest to you that your arguments be based on facts, not innuendo and bias.Barb
May 16, 2014
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Barb
And you appear to be inferring that this is somehow an inferior translation. You would be wrong in that case.
Yes of course it's inferior. It tweaks the translation of the original languages to give them the JW's very own spin. You can even track this throughout it's various editions.
But it is in harmony with biblical Christianity, as evidenced from the scriptures cited.
Cited from a translation specifically skewed to match the JW's teaching. I'm not impressed. So you can't know if your position is Scriptural or not. Take for instance the JW's insistence in translating cross as stake. NWT:
And we are witnesses of all the things he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem; but they did away with him by hanging him on a stake.
The Emphatic Diaglott:
39 and we witnesses of all, which he did in both the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem; whom also they killed having hanged on a cross.
Have you ever heard of this translation? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emphatic_Diaglott
After Wilson's death in 1900, the plates and copyright were inherited by his heirs. Charles Taze Russell, then president of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, approached Wilson's family via a third party and obtained the copyright, and at some later point, the plates. The Society published the Diaglott in 1902, and later had the type reset for publication on its own presses in 1927, with an additional printing in 1942. In 1952 the copyright to the Diaglott expired and it fell into the public domain. The Watch Tower Society's sold the Diaglott inexpensively (offering it free of charge from 1990), making it non-viable for others to print until the depletion of that inventory.
Let me suggest that you use this translation from now on instead of the NWT. It's obviously approved of by the JW's. cheersMung
May 16, 2014
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Hi Ted, Thanks for you comment. News often goes over the top here, presumably in an effort to generate hits. And for that, who needs facts?Mung
May 16, 2014
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Mung writes,
I read your post. Your response indicates you understood perfectly what you were claiming and what I was challenging. For you, “as a spirit,” means “without a body.” Correct?
Yes.
So now you have to make up some story about what happened to the body. My how history repeats itself.
Not necessarily. Remember, God disposed of Moses’ body in an undisclosed manner so that he wouldn’t be worshipped by the Israelites. Why couldn’t he have done the same with Jesus? The Bible doesn’t specify what happened to Jesus’s fleshly body.
But your view is not orthodox Christianity.
But it is in harmony with biblical Christianity, as evidenced from the scriptures cited.
Will you at least grant that?
Yes, and? Orthodox Christianity includes many beliefs and traditions not found in scripture. What did Jesus say about traditions? “You have made the word of God invalid by your tradition,” is what he told the Pharisees.
Or do you believe that it’s the JW’s who are orthodox and all the rest of Christianity is mistaken?
I believe the Bible is right. If Orthodox Christianity disagrees with what the Bible says, then its adherents have a problem.
Acts 10:40, 41: “God raised this One [Jesus Christ] up on the third day and granted him to become manifest, not to all the people, but to witnesses appointed beforehand by God.” (Why did not others see him too? Because he was a spirit creature and when, as angels had done in the past, he materialized fleshly bodies to make himself visible, he did so only in the presence of his disciples.) That’s not in my Bible.
That scripture isn’t in your Bible? Really? If you’re referring to the words in parentheses, those are my comments. Did this somehow confuse you?
Sometimes I forget that JW’s have their own “translation.” New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures (2013 Revision) Barb, do you know of any other sect that uses this “translation” of the Scriptures, other than JW’s?
And you appear to be inferring that this is somehow an inferior translation. You would be wrong in that case. Consider these comments from scholars: Dr. Benjamin Kedar, a Hebrew scholar in Israel, made a similar comment concerning the New World Translation. In 1989 he said: “This work reflects an honest endeavor to achieve an understanding of the text that is as accurate as possible. . . . I have never discovered in the New World Translation any biased intent to read something into the text that it does not contain.” In answer to your question, no, but I do know that a professor of religion, Jason David BeDuhn, wrote a book about Bible translations and praised the NWT for being closely aligned with the Hebrew and Greek texts available. It’s called “Truth in Translation”. Check it out sometime, it’s a pretty good read. Here’s an except of BeDuhn’s commentary from an article: “Some linguists have examined modern Bible translations—including the New World Translation—for examples of inaccuracy and bias. One such scholar is Jason David BeDuhn, associate professor of religious studies at Northern Arizona University in the United States. In 2003 he published a 200-page study of nine of “the Bibles most widely in use in the English-speaking world.” His study examined several passages of Scripture that are controversial, for that is where “bias is most likely to interfere with translation.” For each passage, he compared the Greek text with the renderings of each English translation, and he looked for biased attempts to change the meaning. What is his assessment? BeDuhn points out that the general public and many Bible scholars assume that the differences in the New World Translation (NW) are due to religious bias on the part of its translators. However, he states: “Most of the differences are due to the greater accuracy of the NW as a literal, conservative translation.” While BeDuhn disagrees with certain renderings of the New World Translation, he says that this version “emerges as the most accurate of the translations compared.” He calls it a “remarkably good” translation.” British Bible scholar Alexander Thomson noted that the New World Translation is outstanding in accurately rendering the Greek present tense. To illustrate: Ephesians 5:25 reads “Husbands, continue loving your wives” instead of saying merely “Husbands, love your wife.” (King James Version) “No other version appears to have exhibited this fine feature with such fulness and frequency,” said Thomson regarding the New World Translation. If you’re going to insinuate that this translation is inferior to others, please refute the comments from the scholars quoted above first. And, unless you really didn’t read my post, I did quote from other Bible translations. You did notice the letters in italics (KJ, RSV, etc), right?
40 This the God raised up the third day, and gave him manifest to become, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses to those having been chosen before by the God, to us, who ate with and drank with him after that to have raised him out of the dead ones.
And? This translation doesn’t specify whether he was raised bodily or spiritually. But it does note, as I noted earlier, that Jesus’s appearances were only to his followers.
Wow, not even the NWT has the comments that Barb added: 40 God raised this one up on the third day+ and allowed him to become manifest,* 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses appointed beforehand by God, to us, who ate and drank with him after his rising from the dead. What commentary are you quoting from Barb?
I should have specified. It’s from a book published by the Witnesses called Reasoning from the Scriptures.Barb
May 16, 2014
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It's ironic that the headline for this story explicitly blames BioLogos for what we now know to be a mass exodus on the part of Bryan College's faculty, including (according to some sources) the whole science faculty. The ironies are at least two: (1) When Turner and Eisenback said, "The reality is that evolution is not a theory teetering on the edge of collapse," they were saying something that YEC Todd Wood, himself a former Bryan College professor, has said often and quite loudly. I won't take time to find a few links to document this, b/c I don't need to: those readers of UD who know Wood or his ideas (and many probably do) know that this is accurate. In other words, they are hardly the first at Bryan to hold that evolution is strongly supported by the evidence, whether or not they conclude that evolution is actually true. THIS CAN'T BE BLAMED ON BIOLOGOS. (2) You can fairly sat that BioLogos is funding a project by Turner and Eisenback, but you can't fairly imply that BioLogos should be blamed for what's happened at Bryan. Perhaps publicity over the BioLogos grant motivated some people at Bryan to clean house--I have no idea about that, I am simply offering what I see as a reasonable speculation that remains a speculation. But, BioLogos did not have anything to do with Bryan hiring and then firing lots of faculty--far more than the two grant recipients--who don't agree with what has been clearly stated by the college to be an addendum to a statement of faith that, by its own bylaws, cannot be amended. That is plainly an act of bad faith. What's visible at Bryan is the tip of the iceberg. Scads of evangelical scholars and scientists want to do precisely what UD wants them to do: think for themselves and follow the evidence where it leads. At a significant number of evangelical colleges and seminaries, however, they can't do that without risking their jobs. UD ought to be far more sympathetic: you know and I know that in many secular settings Christian scholars and scientists face the same conundrum. You should be applauding these legally-hired, illegally fired faculty for doing what you want ID people to be able to do in their own academic settings. In short: it works both ways. I teach at an evangelical college myself, and I affirm annually our statement of faith (the Apostles' Creed) without an ounce of hesitation and with personal joy. As many here also know, I publicly chastised Iowa State University for allowing a witch hunt against Guillermo Gonazalez. So, no one can claim hypocrisy on my part in this particular instance.Ted Davis
May 16, 2014
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Barb:
Acts 10:40, 41: “God raised this One [Jesus Christ] up on the third day and granted him to become manifest, not to all the people, but to witnesses appointed beforehand by God.” (Why did not others see him too? Because he was a spirit creature and when, as angels had done in the past, he materialized fleshly bodies to make himself visible, he did so only in the presence of his disciples.)
That's not in my Bible. Sometimes I forget that JW's have their own "translation." New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures (2013 Revision) Barb, do you know of any other sect that uses this "translation" of the Scriptures, other than JW's? Another JW translation without all the gratuitous commentary:
40 This the God raised up the third day, and gave him manifest to become, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses to those having been chosen before by the God, to us, who ate with and drank with him after that to have raised him out of the dead ones.
Wow, not even the NWT has the comments that Barb added:
40 God raised this one up on the third day+ and allowed him to become manifest,* 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses appointed beforehand by God, to us, who ate and drank with him after his rising from the dead.
What commentary are you quoting from Barb?Mung
May 15, 2014
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Barb:
Mung, did you even read my post? Your questions were answered in there.
Mung:
But you deny he was resurrected bodily. You claim he merely “came back to life,” without a body.
Barb:
He was resurrected as a spirit, as the scriptures I quoted clearly show. Read my post.
I read your post. Your response indicates you understood perfectly what you were claiming and what I was challenging. For you, "as a spirit," means "without a body." Correct? So now you have to make up some story about what happened to the body. My how history repeats itself. But your view is not orthodox Christianity. Will you at least grant that? Or do you believe that it's the JW's who are orthodox and all the rest of Christianity is mistaken?Mung
May 15, 2014
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Mung, did you even read my post? Your questions were answered in there.
But you deny he was resurrected bodily. You claim he merely “came back to life,” without a body.
He was resurrected as a spirit, as the scriptures I quoted clearly show. Read my post.
Why is it that if a body was required for him to die, why wasn’t a body required for him to “come back to life.”?
Acts 10:40, 41: “God raised this One [Jesus Christ] up on the third day and granted him to become manifest, not to all the people, but to witnesses appointed beforehand by God.” (Why did not others see him too? Because he was a spirit creature and when, as angels had done in the past, he materialized fleshly bodies to make himself visible, he did so only in the presence of his disciples.) 1 Cor. 15:45: “It is even so written: ‘The first man Adam became a living soul.’ The last Adam [Jesus Christ, who was perfect as was Adam when created] became a life-giving spirit.” What does the Bible say, Mung? Read my post.
And if he appeared bodily, post-resurrection, why couldn’t have appeared bodily in the body that was placed in the tomb?
Following his resurrection, Jesus did not always appear in the same body of flesh (perhaps to reinforce in their minds the fact that he was then a spirit), and so he was not immediately recognized even by his close associates. (John 20:14, 15; 21:4-7) However, by his repeatedly appearing to them in materialized bodies and then saying and doing things that they would identify with the Jesus they knew, he strengthened their faith in the fact that he truly had been resurrected from the dead. What does the Bible say, Mung? You are asking questions that have already been answered by the Bible.
And if he could appear bodily, why didn’t that prevent him from inheriting the kingdom?
What does materializing in a fleshly body have to do with inheriting the Kingdom? It's a non sequitur. He showed himself to his disciples to reinforce the fact that he'd been resurrected. He didn't show himself to anyone else. Again, Mung, what does the Bible say? Why are you ignoring what the Bible says on the matter? 1 Cor. 15:42-50, [RS, Revised Standard]: “So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. . . . It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. . . . Thus it is written, ‘The first man Adam became a living being’; the last Adam [Jesus Christ, who was a perfect human as Adam had been at the start] became a life-giving spirit. . . . I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.” 1 Pet. 3:18, RS: “Christ also died for sins once for all, . . . being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit [“in the spirit,” NE, AT, JB, Dy].”
IOW, even if he was raised bodily, as orthodox Christians believe, he could still inherit the kingdom, and your “proof text” turns out to be no such thing.
The Bible very clearly, and in multiple translations as noted above, states that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. Is the Bible wrong? Think about the concept of resurrecting someone; we know that all persons, heavenly or earthly, possess bodies. To be again a person (resurrected), one who has died would have to have a body, either a physical or a spiritual body. The Bible says: “If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one.”—1Co 15:44. But is the old body reassembled in the resurrection? or is it a precise replica of the former body, made exactly as it was when the person died? The Scriptures answer in the negative when they deal with the resurrection of Christ’s anointed brothers to life in the heavens: “Nevertheless, someone will say: ‘How are the dead to be raised up? Yes, with what sort of body are they coming?’ You unreasonable person! What you sow is not made alive unless first it dies; and as for what you sow, you sow, not the body that will develop, but a bare grain, it may be, of wheat or any one of the rest; but God gives it a body just as it has pleased him, and to each of the seeds its own body.”—1Co 15:35-38. Those resurrected to heaven as Paul mentions here receive a spiritual body, for it pleases God for them to have bodies suitable for their heavenly environment.
So why do JW’s deny his bodily resurrection? It’s not because of anything written in Scripture. Where did the JW’s doctrine come from?
You are unbelievable. I QUOTED SCRIPTURE TO SHOW WHERE THESE BELIEFS CAME FROM, AND YOU DENY IT. How incredibly stupid of you to ask this. What did my previous post contain? Scriptures to back up the points I was making. Paul then says: “So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised up in incorruption.” (1 Corinthians 15:42) A human body, even when perfect, is corruptible. It can be killed. For example, Paul said that the resurrected Jesus was “destined no more to return to corruption.” (Acts 13:34) He would never return to life in a corruptible, even though perfect, human body. The bodies that God gives to resurrected anointed ones are incorruptible—beyond death or decay. Paul continues: “It is sown in dishonor, it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised up in power. It is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body.” (1 Corinthians 15:43, 44) Further, Paul says: “This which is mortal must put on immortality.” Immortality means endless, indestructible life. (1 Corinthians 15:53; Hebrews 7:16) In this way, the resurrected ones bear “the image of the heavenly one,” Jesus, who made their resurrection possible.—1 Corinthians 15:45-49. Is there any part of the above-cited scriptures that you don't comprehend? Our doctrine came directly from the scriptures. Try reading them sometime. Your reading comprehension is either very, very off or you simply don't care enough about the subject to objectively examine the facts.Barb
May 15, 2014
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Barb:
It can be explained simply. Jesus materialized into a fleshly body. If he can be resurrected either bodily or in spirit, then logically he can appear either bodily or in spirit to his followers.
But you deny he was resurrected bodily. You claim he merely "came back to life," without a body. Why is it that if a body was required for him to die, why wasn't a body required for him to "come back to life."? And if he appeared bodily, post-resurrection, why couldn't have appeared bodily in the body that was placed in the tomb? And if he could appear bodily, why didn't that prevent him from inheriting the kingdom? IOW, even if he was raised bodily, as orthodox Christians believe, he could still inherit the kingdom, and your "proof text" turns out to be no such thing. So why do JW's deny his bodily resurrection? It's not because of anything written in Scripture. Where did the JW's doctrine come from?Mung
May 14, 2014
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Tjguy writes,
Orthodox Christians, when they speak of the resurrection of Christ, mean his bodily resurrection. So no, you don’t believe in the resurrection of Christ in the same way as orthodox Christians.
The problem with bodily resurrection is that scripture does not appear to support such a belief. The question becomes, “Does Jesus have his fleshly body in heaven?” Take a look at what some Bible translations say: 1 Cor. 15:42-50, [RS, Revised Standard]: “So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. . . . It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. . . . Thus it is written, ‘The first man Adam became a living being’; the last Adam [Jesus Christ, who was a perfect human as Adam had been at the start] became a life-giving spirit. . . . I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.” 1 Pet. 3:18, RS: “Christ also died for sins once for all, . . . being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit [“in the spirit,” NE, AT, JB, Dy].” Think of it this way: If a man pays a debt for a friend but then promptly takes back the payment, obviously the debt continues. Likewise, if, when he was resurrected, Jesus had taken back his human body of flesh and blood, which had been given in sacrifice to pay the ransom price, what effect would that have had on the provision he was making to relieve faithful persons of the debt of sin? It is true that Jesus appeared in physical form to his disciples after his resurrection. But on certain occasions, why did they not at first recognize him? (Luke 24:15-32; John 20:14-16) On one occasion, for the benefit of Thomas, Jesus appeared with the physical evidence of nail prints in his hands and a spear wound in his side. But how was it possible on that occasion for him suddenly to appear in their midst even though the doors were locked? (John 20:26, 27) Jesus evidently materialized bodies on these occasions, as angels had done in the past when appearing to humans. Disposing of Jesus’ physical body at the time of his resurrection presented no problem for God. Interestingly, although the physical body was not left by God in the tomb (evidently to strengthen the conviction of the disciples that Jesus had actually been raised), the linen cloths in which it had been wrapped were left there; yet, the resurrected Jesus always appeared fully clothed.—John 20:6, 7.
And when you say you believe in the resurrection of Christ you’re either equivocating over the meaning of resurrection or you’re contradicting yourself.
See above. Resurrection means “coming back to life.” Jesus did just that.
That said, why would the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ prevent him from inheriting the Kingdom of God as a spirit? There’s no logical reason that I can think of that his being raised bodily from the dead would prevent his inheriting the kingdom.
Again, take a look at what various Bible translations say about the subject: 1 Pet. 3:18: “Christ died once for all time concerning sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, that he might lead you to God, he being put to death in the flesh, but ing made alive in the spirit [“by the Spirit,” KJ; “in the spirit,” RS, NE, Dy, JB].” (At his resurrection from the dead, Jesus was brought forth with a spirit body. In the Greek text the words “flesh” and “spirit” are put in contrast to each other, and both are in the dative case; so, if a translator uses the rendering “by the spirit” he should also consistently say “by the flesh,” or if he uses “in the flesh” he should also say “in the spirit.”) Acts 10:40, 41: “God raised this One [Jesus Christ] up on the third day and granted him to become manifest, not to all the people, but to witnesses appointed beforehand by God.” (Why did not others see him too? Because he was a spirit creature and when, as angels had done in the past, he materialized fleshly bodies to make himself visible, he did so only in the presence of his disciples.) 1 Cor. 15:45: “It is even so written: ‘The first man Adam became a living soul.’ The last Adam [Jesus Christ, who was perfect as was Adam when created] became a life-giving spirit.” Also see what Luke 24:36-39 says: Luke 24:36-39: “While they [the disciples] were speaking of these things he himself stood in their midst and said to them: ‘May you have peace.’ But because they were terrified, and had become frightened, they were imagining they beheld a spirit. So he said to them: ‘Why are you troubled, and why is it doubts come up in your hearts? See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; feel me and see, because a spirit does not have flesh and bones just as you behold that I have.’” Humans cannot see spirits, so the disciples evidently thought they were seeing an apparition or a vision. (Compare Mark 6:49, 50.) Jesus assured them that he was no apparition; they could see his body of flesh and could touch him, feeling the bones; he also ate in their presence. Similarly, in the past, angels had materialized in order to be seen by men; they had eaten, and some had even married and fathered children. (Gen. 6:4; 19:1-3) Following his resurrection, Jesus did not always appear in the same body of flesh (perhaps to reinforce in their minds the fact that he was then a spirit), and so he was not immediately recognized even by his close associates. (John 20:14, 15; 21:4-7) However, by his repeatedly appearing to them in materialized bodies and then saying and doing things that they would identify with the Jesus they knew, he strengthened their faith in the fact that he truly had been resurrected from the dead. If the disciples had actually seen Jesus in the body that he now has in heaven, Paul would not later have referred to the glorified Christ as being “the exact representation of [God’s] very being,” because God is a Spirit and has never been in the flesh.—Heb. 1:3; compare 1 Timothy 6:16. When reading the reports of Jesus’ postresurrection appearances, we are helped to understand them properly if we keep in mind 1 Peter 3:18 and; 1 Corinthians 15:45.
So how do you explain his bodily appearances post-resurrection?
In the book of Acts, the Gospel writer Luke stated: “To [the apostles] also by many positive proofs [Jesus] showed himself alive after he had suffered, being seen by them throughout forty days and telling the things about the kingdom of God.” (Acts 1:2, 3) A number of disciples saw the resurrected Jesus on various occasions—in a garden, on a road, during a meal, by the Sea of Tiberias.—Matthew 28:8-10; Luke 24:13-43; John 21:1-23. Critics question the veracity of these appearances. They say that the writers fabricated the accounts, or they cite seeming discrepancies in them. Actually, minor variations in the Gospel accounts prove that there was no collusion involved. Our knowledge of Jesus is broadened when one writer supplies details that supplement other accounts of certain incidents in the earthly life of Christ. Were Jesus’ post-resurrection appearances hallucinations? Any argument along those lines is implausible, since he was seen by so many people. Among them were fishermen, women, a civil servant, and even the doubting apostle Thomas, who was convinced only when he saw the irrefutable proof that Jesus had been raised from the dead. (John 20:24-29) On several occasions, disciples of Jesus did not at first recognize their resurrected Lord. Once, over 500 people saw him, most of whom were still alive when the apostle Paul used that incident as evidence in his defense of the resurrection.—1 Corinthians 15:6. It can be explained simply. Jesus materialized into a fleshly body. If he can be resurrected either bodily or in spirit, then logically he can appear either bodily or in spirit to his followers.Barb
May 14, 2014
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Barb:
And we most certainly do believe in the resurrection of Christ, but not bodily. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, as Paul pointed out in his letter to Corinthians. Jesus was raised as a spirit.
Orthodox Christians, when they speak of the resurrection of Christ, mean his bodily resurrection. So no, you don't believe in the resurrection of Christ in the same way as orthodox Christians. And when you say you believe in the resurrection of Christ you're either equivocating over the meaning of resurrection or you're contradicting yourself. That said, why would the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ prevent him from inheriting the Kingdom of God as a spirit? There's no logical reason that I can think of that his being raised bodily from the dead would prevent his inheriting the kingdom.
Jesus was raised as a spirit.
So how do you explain his bodily appearances post-resurrection?Mung
May 13, 2014
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tjguy @ 22:
It is my understanding that to become a true child of God, one must believe in the divinity of God’s Son, in his physical substitutionary death, and bodily resurrection. The JWs do not believe in the divinity of Christ, nor do they believe in the literal bodily resurrection of Jesus.
Not exactly. We do believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God (as he referred to himself in the Bible). And we most certainly do believe in the resurrection of Christ, but not bodily. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, as Paul pointed out in his letter to Corinthians. Jesus was raised as a spirit.
They may call themselves Christian and they may seek to follow the teachings of Jesus, and they may even be included in the “Christian” population figures of the US, but without an inward transformation that comes by faith in Jesus, in the eyes of many, the JWs are a Christian cult.
Cult implies following a human. Jehovah's Witnesses do not claim to follow any man or any man made organization. If that were the case, they'd call themselves the Watchtower Society. And how would you know, exactly, whether or not any of the 7 million Witnesses have had an internal transformation from learning and studying the Bible and following Christ?Barb
May 13, 2014
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JW says:
Another point is: It doesn’t even make sense to require the staff of a Christian university to subscribe to the trinitarian party line.
It sure does make sense if that is what you believe the Bible teaches. Barb says:
Jehovah’s Witnesses do not agree with the doctrine of the Trinity. They are Christians. Many scholars also believe that the doctrine of the Trinity is not explicitly taught in scripture.
Barb, this is a bit off topic, but is important. I guess that would depend on how you define the word "Christian". It is my understanding that to become a true child of God, one must believe in the divinity of God's Son, in his physical substitutionary death, and bodily resurrection. The JWs do not believe in the divinity of Christ, nor do they believe in the literal bodily resurrection of Jesus. They may call themselves Christian and they may seek to follow the teachings of Jesus, and they may even be included in the "Christian" population figures of the US, but without an inward transformation that comes by faith in Jesus, in the eyes of many, the JWs are a Christian cult. I respect them, but unfortunately, I do not believe they are true Christians. Sorry. Just had to clarify that. By the way, I think they also do not view us as true Christians either. They only have ears for the official interpretation of their Bible because they believe their organization is the one and only true Spokesman for God. So their organization's teachings are literal Truth in their eyes. So in their eyes, I, and you too - to the extent that you disagree with them, are preaching a false gospel!tjguy
May 13, 2014
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Mung (moi):
What are the alternatives to theistic evolution?
Laszlo:
The most congenial alternative to that contradiction known as “theistic evolution” is clearly stated in the Bible which says that God creates within the confines of time successively and according to a plan. Another term for this would be “progressive creation.”
I used to be a progressive creationist. But then I came to believe it was a misnomer, because somehow God and/or his creation stopped progressing. Non-progressive non-YEC creationist was just too much of a mouthful. So I return to my (modified) earlier questions: What are the alternatives to theistic evolution? A mechanical God who wound things up at their various beginnings and then let them take their "natural" course? God the programmer who wrote some magnificent pieces of software, and as long as the hardware doesn’t fail or the power doesn’t go out they just chug along on their own? So according to YEC'ism God created everything in six literal days and then was done. After that it was all "evolution" All downhill. And according to progressive creationism it took God a bit longer than six literal days to finish the creation, but it's still done. And now it's still just all downhill from here. According to progressive creationism, when was the last time God "created" something new? Now I don't want to be called a Christian Darwinist, because I think it would be improper. I believe Darwin was wrong. But say someone believes that the creation continues to evolve and that this evolution continues to be brought about by God, what other term than "theistic evolutionist" should we apply to that person? Heretic? Intelligent Design theorist? ;)Mung
May 12, 2014
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The actual toll is probably lower Here is a little tidbit for the detractors who insists YECs dont know 'science'bevets
May 12, 2014
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JLAfan2001:
For the 100th time, yes we do. It’s called population genetics and anthropology. This is is why increasing christian academics are having to revise the theology because the data increasingly shows there was never a first copule.
The data can be interpreted many ways. Anthropology isn’t an exact science. I’m actually curious as to why scientists who disdain the Bible and religion use the term “mitochondrial Eve” when discussing the common ancestor of mankind. Why allude to something that they think is fictitious?
This is a good example of the less intelligent refusing to accept it. You should stop believing all the jehovie science. It’s getting you nowhere.
What’s “jehovie science”? I believe in the same science that Galileo, Newton, Mendelev, and Copernicus did. Religion and science are not and have never been at odds no matter how desperately you atheists want to believe they are.
And the ones that don’t agree are wrong. I thought I made that clear. The ones that try to re-interpret the texts are also wrong. Christians are just wrong across the board.
Logical fallacy: equivocation. Try again.
I’m not even sure what you are trying to say here. I guess you are saying that common ancstry is false and so is the science that shows it. Why don’t you dispute this with your christian brothers gpuccio, vjtorley and nussalus. I’m sure they would mop the floor with you and your science even though their theology is ridiculous.
And I stated, quite clearly, that nobody has all the answers. Please stop pretending that you have more knowledge than anyone else here. It’s obvious that you don’t.
That’s the beauty of science, Barb. It changes to reflect the evidence.
Not necessarily. Science does to be sure, but scientists don’t.
Religion doesn’t nor can it.
Who says? You? You have little knowledge of religion in general, so excuse me if I don’t believe your statement. Any religious belief system can change if it chooses to do so.
Religion posits that their holy books are true and unchanging. If they have to change the interpretations then it is no longer truth but their bastardized version of it.
Religion posits that their holy books were written by an intelligence greater than that of all humankind put together, so if humans don’t interpret or understand something, the fault is generally theirs and not the author’s. What is wrong, though with changing the interpretation of something? Don’t scientists do that all the time when revised data is brought to their attention? You mentioned earlier that science is self-correcting. Why can’t religion also be self-correcting?
How do you determine which ones are wrong and which aren’t?
By using your brain.
By the bible? If the bible is incorrect and you have to change the meaning then you can no longer judge the truth by it. Religious truth becomes subjective. Hence the reason why these academics are idiots.
Logical fallacy: ad hominem. It would depend on how you wanted to approach the study of religion. You could start with the Bible, or with any other holy book. You’d have to have a set of standards by which to judge each religion to determine truthfulness. And you’d have to do so with an open mind, which you clearly do not have. <blockquoteI know that you don’t believe that Jesus was god but for those who do, christianity can be falsified in other ways. Do tell.
Jesus or the epistles spoke about moses, jonah, david, adam and abraham. We have little to no evidence that any of these people existed.
The “apostles”, not the epistles. Please try to get the correct terminology before insulting anyone. It only makes you look stupid. We do have evidence of their existence. That you are ignorant of it is no surprise. Moses Now, while no archaeological evidence has been found to confirm the existence of Moses, this is hardly proof that he is mythological. Skeptics once argued that others mentioned in the Bible, such as Babylonian King Belshazzar and Assyrian King Sargon, were likewise myths—until archaeology later confirmed their historicity. Author Jonathan Kirsch (writing in Moses: A Life) reminds us: “The remnants and relics of biblical Israel are so sparse that the utter absence of Moses in any source except the Bible itself is neither surprising nor decisive.” According to Kirsch, some thus argue that it is unlikely that Moses could be a mere figment of someone’s imagination, since “a life story so rich in detail and dialogue, so complex . . . , could not have been made up.” The book Moses—A Life reports: “The biblical account of the oppression of the Israelites appears to be corroborated in one often-reproduced tomb painting from ancient Egypt in which the making of mud bricks by a gang of slaves is depicted in explicit detail.” Also remember where Moses grew up; the Egyptians were not above altering historical records when the truth proved to be embarrassing or went against their political interests. Jonah In the book Naming and Necessity, author Saul Kripke acknowledges the existence of the historical Jonah. Most Biblical scholars also acknowledge his existence. See also The Five Megilloth and Jonah, 1969, by H.L. Ginsberg. Abraham That Abraham is a historical person is borne out by clay tablets from the early second millennium B.C.E. list cities that match the names of Abraham’s relatives. These cities include Peleg, Serug, Nahor, Terah, and Haran.—Genesis 11:17-32. At Genesis 11:31, we read that Abraham and his family emigrated from “Ur of the Chaldeans.” The ruins of this city were discovered in southeastern Iraq. The Bible also states that Abraham’s father, Terah, died in the city of Haran, which probably now lies in Turkey, and that Abraham’s wife, Sarah, died in Hebron, one of the oldest still-inhabited cities of the Middle East.—Genesis 11:32; 23:2. David Before 1993, there was no proof outside the Bible to support the historicity of David, the brave young shepherd who later became king of Israel. That year, however, archaeologists uncovered in northern Israel a basalt stone , dated to the ninth century B.C.E., that experts say bears the words “House of David” and “king of Israel.” This victory stela, with the inscription “House of David,” is one of the sources that mention kings who descended from Abraham and ruled in Israel or Judah. It’s located in Jerusalem, at the Israel Musuem. Regarding this finding, Israel Finkelstein, of Tel Aviv University, observed: “Biblical nihilism collapsed overnight with the discovery of the David inscription.” Adam The Bible’s internal evidence gives weight to the thought that Adam was a real, historical person. Consider, for example, the Jewish ancestral lists recorded in the Bible book of First Chronicles chapters 1 to 9 and in the Gospel of Luke chapter 3. These remarkably detailed genealogical records span 48 and 75 generations respectively. Luke traces the genealogy of Jesus Christ, while Chronicles records the royal and priestly ancestral lines for the nation of Israel. Both lists include the names of such well-known figures as Solomon, David, Jacob, Isaac, Abraham, Noah, and finally Adam. All the names in the two lists represent real people, and Adam was the original real person on each list. Summing up the Scriptural evidence, The New Bible Dictionary concludes: “The New Testament confirms the historicity of the account given in the early chapters of Genesis.” While the Adam and Eve account may not agree with the theory of evolution, it matches what is known to science. And even if there is some skepticism as to whether or not these persons existed, I agree with the words of Professor Albright: “Discovery after discovery has established the accuracy of innumerable details, and has brought increased recognition of the value of the Bible as a source of history.”—Professor William F. Albright
We have evidence against adam.
We have evidence for him, too.
If that is the case then jesus was not divine so who cares about not finding his bones.
If that is not the case, then you need to seriously reconsider your atheism.
He couldn’t have come back to life since he and the bible got so many things wrong.
Says the atheist who’s never read it.
Think for yourself, Barb.
I do, which is far more than I can say for you.Barb
May 12, 2014
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Barb "And you absolutely know this for a fact? Oh wait. That’s right. You don’t." For the 100th time, yes we do. It's called population genetics and anthropology. This is is why increasing christian academics are having to revise the theology because the data increasingly shows there was never a first copule. This is a good example of the less intelligent refusing to accept it. You should stop believing all the jehovie science. It's getting you nowhere. "There are Christian theologians and academics who believe that Adam and Eve are allegorical figures. Not all Christian religions agree, however." And the ones that don't agree are wrong. I thought I made that clear. The ones that try to re-interpret the texts are also wrong. Christians are just wrong across the board. "And science states that we all have a common ancestor. Your point is…?" I'm not even sure what you are trying to say here. I guess you are saying that common ancstry is false and so is the science that shows it. Why don't you dispute this with your christian brothers gpuccio, vjtorley and nussalus. I'm sure they would mop the floor with you and your science even though their theology is ridiculous. "Science has also been wrong about various concepts including phlogiston, the bodily humors, and the aether. Do you still accept those concepts? No? Did you throw all of science out because they were wrong in certain instances? No? Then don’t expect religious people to do the same. Nobody–no scientist and no theologian–has all the answers." That's the beauty of science, Barb. It changes to reflect the evidence. Religion doesn't nor can it. Religion posits that their holy books are true and unchanging. If they have to change the interpretations then it is no longer truth but their bastardized version of it. "You’re right, some religious people do that. Not all do. You’re committing the fallacy of equivocation. Because some religious beliefs are wrong it does not hold that they all are wrong." How do you determine which ones are wrong and which aren't? By the bible? If the bible is incorrect and you have to change the meaning then you can no longer judge the truth by it. Religious truth becomes subjective. Hence the reason why these academics are idiots. "No, it’s not. Christianity would be falsified by finding Jesus’ bones." I know that you don't believe that Jesus was god but for those who do, christianity can be falsified in other ways. Jesus or the epistles spoke about moses, jonah, david, adam and abraham. We have little to no evidence that any of these people existed. We have evidence against adam. If that is the case then jesus was not divine so who cares about not finding his bones. He couldn't have come back to life since he and the bible got so many things wrong. Think for yourself, Barb.JLAfan2001
May 12, 2014
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Theistic evolutionists = "useful idiots" They are like the kids who always want to be in the cool crowd, despite the fact that the cool crowd is full of snobs, condescension and gossips. Rather than take a stand against the peer pressure, they would rather find a way to try to go along yet also simultaneously try to maintain their allegiance to better values. What they end up doing is bringing contempt upon themselves and merely serve as the mascots for a cause, all the while getting the laughed at behind their backs.OldArmy94
May 12, 2014
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JLAfan2001 continues,
Adam & Eve never existed.
And you absolutely know this for a fact? Oh wait. That's right. You don't.
Even a growing body of christian academics are realizing this.
There are Christian theologians and academics who believe that Adam and Eve are allegorical figures. Not all Christian religions agree, however.
They are idiots to think that their theology can be reconciled with science once the first couple are removed.
And science states that we all have a common ancestor. Your point is...?
A majority of the early church fathers believed in a literal six day creation, a young earth and a first couple. THEY WERE WRONG!!!! but the less intelligent among us refuse to accept that.
Science has also been wrong about various concepts including phlogiston, the bodily humors, and the aether. Do you still accept those concepts? No? Did you throw all of science out because they were wrong in certain instances? No? Then don't expect religious people to do the same. Nobody--no scientist and no theologian--has all the answers.
Instead of being honest and rejecting their faith, they try to read things into the text that were never meant to be there. At least fundies recognize this.
You're right, some religious people do that. Not all do. You're committing the fallacy of equivocation. Because some religious beliefs are wrong it does not hold that they all are wrong. Because some scientific beliefs (like phlogiston) were wrong, it does not hold that all scientific beliefs are wrong.
Science has shown repeatedly that Genesis is wrong. If Adam never existed then sin never entered the world and no need for a saviour. Christianity is essentialy falsified.
No, it's not. Christianity would be falsified by finding Jesus' bones.Barb
May 12, 2014
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tjguy writes,
That the JWs do not agree with Christianity is no modern secret.
Jehovah's Witnesses do not agree with the doctrine of the Trinity. They are Christians. Many scholars also believe that the doctrine of the Trinity is not explicitly taught in scripture.Barb
May 12, 2014
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But some at Bryan believe the board’s action was intended ...
Is this design inferrence? ;-)Kajdron
May 12, 2014
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Of related note: Are Humans Ever Born with "Perfectly Formed" Tails? - Casey Luskin - May 2014 Excerpt: Human tails are extremely rare, with perhaps only a few hundred cases documented worldwide over the past half-century. Medical researchers who have had the lucky opportunity to study a human tail (state),,, "In all reported cases, the vestigial human tail lacks bone, cartilage, notochord, and spinal cord. It is unique in this feature",,, "never contains vertebrae in contrast to other vertebrate animals",,, "there are major morphologic differences between the caudal appendage and the tails of other vertebrates",,, "there is no zoological precedent for a vertebral tail without caudal vertebrae",,, "Bona-fide cases of human tails containing bone have not been documented." But what about "pseudotails" -- can't they contain bone? Yes, sometimes they can, but pseudotails don't contain vertebrae (as all other mammalian tails do), and they're not located at the base of the coccyx, where a "true tail" ought to be -- they are found in various other places along the lower back, and may even be off to the side from the backbone. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/05/are_humans_ever085411.htmlbornagain77
May 12, 2014
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I've said it before and I'll say it again....Adam & Eve never existed. Even a growing body of christian academics are realizing this. They are idiots to think that their theology can be reconciled with science once the first couple are removed. A majority of the early church fathers believed in a literal six day creation, a young earth and a first couple. THEY WERE WRONG!!!! but the less intelligent among us refuse to accept that. Instead of being honest and rejecting their faith, they try to read things into the text that were never meant to be there. At least fundies recognize this. Science has shown repeatedly that Genesis is wrong. If Adam never existed then sin never entered the world and no need for a saviour. Christianity is essentialy falsified.JLAfan2001
May 12, 2014
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@tiguy
That the JWs do not agree with Christianity is no modern secret.
It certainly is a secret to all JWs. "We do our best to imitate Jesus Christ and are proud to be called Christians."
However, in such a school, do you think they would allow any trinitarian professors? I highly doubt it!
I can't speak for all JWs, so I don't even try. If I were to create an academic teaching facility, I'd call it UAF (University of AF... I'll let you figure out what AF stands for.) Another point is: It doesn't even make sense to require the staff of a Christian university to subscribe to the trinitarian party line.JWTruthInLove
May 12, 2014
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As best I can tell, the authors favor “theistic evolution” although they prefer the term “evolutionary creationism” which is the same thing.
I prefer the term "theistic atheist".udat
May 11, 2014
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Evolution is teetering on the edge of disaster. If not why is it so famous and common for everyone to defend or attack creationism these days. Somebody smells a problem.Robert Byers
May 11, 2014
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JW says:
I am discouraged to see that people in a CHRISTIAN school have to subscribe to the Trinitarian falsehoods, to work there. It doesn’t matter whether it’s Darwinism or Trinitarian idolworshipping. Both are false religions and they will be destroyed by God."
That the JWs do not agree with Christianity is no modern secret. You have made that very clear in many ways. This statement is another example. That's fine. You are welcome to your own opinion. And of course, Jehovah's Witnesses are more than welcome to create their own university and teach their own doctrines there. No one can stop you. You will have complete freedom to teach whatever you want to there. However, in such a school, do you think they would allow any trinitarian professors? I highly doubt it! And rightly so! They need to require their professors to hold to what their religion teaches. How could anyone criticize such a thing? I wouldn't criticize it. It is perfectly natural and normal. So please give us the same freedom to require adherence to Christian doctrine in our schools.tjguy
May 11, 2014
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@tiguy:
A Christian school
I, for one, am encouraged to see that there are some schools around that are willing to stick up for their beliefs and not cave in to the intelligentsia who ridicule God’s Word.
I am discouraged to see that people in a CHRISTIAN school have to subscribe to the Trinitarian falsehoods, to work there. It doesn't matter whether it's Darwinism or Trinitarian idolworshipping. Both are false religions and they will be destroyed by God:
What does the future hold for religions that produce rotten fruit? Jesus warned: “Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire.” (Matthew 7:19) Yes, false religion will be chopped down and destroyed! But how and when will this happen? A prophetic vision recorded in the Bible book of Revelation, chapters 17 and 18, provides the answer. http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102006290
JWTruthInLove
May 11, 2014
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If, unbeknownst to us, God created all life on earth by using the 'bottom up' materialistic processes of Darwinian evolution then, at least, should not the 'bottom up' materialistic processes be able to explain the origination of 'form':
Alexander Tsiaras: Conception to birth — visualized – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKyljukBE70 Comment on preceding video: Mathematician and medical image maker Alexander Tsiaras offers a stunning visualization of the process that in nine months takes an emerging human life from conception to birth. He speaks of “the marvel of this information,” “the mathematical models of how these things are done are beyond human comprehension,” “even though I look at this with the eyes of mathematician I look at this and marvel. How do these instruction sets not make mistakes as they build what is us?” HOW BIOLOGISTS LOST SIGHT OF THE MEANING OF LIFE — AND ARE NOW STARING IT IN THE FACE - Stephen L. Talbott - May 2012 Excerpt: “If you think air traffic controllers have a tough job guiding planes into major airports or across a crowded continental airspace, consider the challenge facing a human cell trying to position its proteins”. A given cell, he notes, may make more than 10,000 different proteins, and typically contains more than a billion protein molecules at any one time. “Somehow a cell must get all its proteins to their correct destinations — and equally important, keep these molecules out of the wrong places”. And further: “It’s almost as if every mRNA [an intermediate between a gene and a corresponding protein] coming out of the nucleus knows where it’s going” (Travis 2011),,, Further, the billion protein molecules in a cell are virtually all capable of interacting with each other to one degree or another; they are subject to getting misfolded or “all balled up with one another”; they are critically modified through the attachment or detachment of molecular subunits, often in rapid order and with immediate implications for changing function; they can wind up inside large-capacity “transport vehicles” headed in any number of directions; they can be sidetracked by diverse processes of degradation and recycling... and so on without end. Yet the coherence of the whole is maintained. The question is indeed, then, “How does the organism meaningfully dispose of all its molecules, getting them to the right places and into the right interactions?” The same sort of question can be asked of cells, for example in the growing embryo, where literal streams of cells are flowing to their appointed places, differentiating themselves into different types as they go, and adjusting themselves to all sorts of unpredictable perturbations — even to the degree of responding appropriately when a lab technician excises a clump of them from one location in a young embryo and puts them in another, where they may proceed to adapt themselves in an entirely different and proper way to the new environment. It is hard to quibble with the immediate impression that form (which is more idea-like than thing-like) is primary, and the material particulars subsidiary. Two systems biologists, one from the Max Delbrück Center for Molecular Medicine in Germany and one from Harvard Medical School, frame one part of the problem this way: "The human body is formed by trillions of individual cells. These cells work together with remarkable precision, first forming an adult organism out of a single fertilized egg, and then keeping the organism alive and functional for decades. To achieve this precision, one would assume that each individual cell reacts in a reliable, reproducible way to a given input, faithfully executing the required task. However, a growing number of studies investigating cellular processes on the level of single cells revealed large heterogeneity even among genetically identical cells of the same cell type. (Loewer and Lahav 2011)",,, And then we hear that all this meaningful activity is, somehow, meaningless or a product of meaninglessness. This, I believe, is the real issue troubling the majority of the American populace when they are asked about their belief in evolution. They see one thing and then are told, more or less directly, that they are really seeing its denial. Yet no one has ever explained to them how you get meaning from meaninglessness — a difficult enough task once you realize that we cannot articulate any knowledge of the world at all except in the language of meaning.,,, http://www.netfuture.org/2012/May1012_184.html#2 If DNA really rules (morphology), why did THIS happen? - April 2014 Excerpt: Researchers implanted human embryonic neuronal cells into a mouse embryo. Mouse and human neurons have distinct morphologies (shapes). Because the human neurons feature human DNA, they should be easy to identify. Which raises a question: Would the human neurons implanted in developing mouse brain have a mouse or a human morphology? Well, the answer is, the human neurons had a mouse morphology. They could be distinguished from the mouse ones only by their human genetic markers. If DNA really ruled, we would expect a human morphology. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/if-dna-really-rules-why-did-this-happen/ Stephen Meyer - Functional Proteins And Information For Body Plans - video https://vimeo.com/91322260 Dr. Stephen Meyer comments at the end of the preceding video,,, ‘Now one more problem as far as the generation of information. It turns out that you don’t only need information to build genes and proteins, it turns out to build Body-Plans you need higher levels of information; Higher order assembly instructions. DNA codes for the building of proteins, but proteins must be arranged into distinctive circuitry to form distinctive cell types. Cell types have to be arranged into tissues. Tissues have to be arranged into organs. Organs and tissues must be specifically arranged to generate whole new Body-Plans, distinctive arrangements of those body parts. We now know that DNA alone is not responsible for those higher orders of organization. DNA codes for proteins, but by itself it does not insure that proteins, cell types, tissues, organs, will all be arranged in the body. And what that means is that the Body-Plan morphogenesis, as it is called, depends upon information that is not encoded on DNA. Which means you can mutate DNA indefinitely. 80 million years, 100 million years, til the cows come home. It doesn’t matter, because in the best case you are just going to find a new protein some place out there in that vast combinatorial sequence space. You are not, by mutating DNA alone, going to generate higher order structures that are necessary to building a body plan. So what we can conclude from that is that the neo-Darwinian mechanism is grossly inadequate to explain the origin of information necessary to build new genes and proteins, and it is also grossly inadequate to explain the origination of novel biological form.’ Stephen Meyer - (excerpt taken from Meyer/Sternberg vs. Shermer/Prothero debate - 2009)
bornagain77
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