Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

From IAI News: How infinity threatens cosmology

Categories
Cosmology
Sciences and Theology
Share
Facebook
Twitter/X
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Peter Cameron, Emeritus Professor Mathematics at Queen Mary, University of London, writes:

There are many approaches to infinity through the twin pillars of science and religion, but I will just restrict my attention here to the views of mathematicians and physicists.

22 09 23.infinity2.ata
IAI News

Aristotle was one of the most influential Greek philosophers. He believed that we could consider “potential infinity” (we can count objects without knowing how many more are coming) but that a “completed infinity” is taboo. For mathematicians, infinity was off-limits for two millennia after Aristotle’s ban. Galileo tried to tackle the problem, noting that an infinite set could be matched up with a part of itself, but in the end drew back. It was left to Cantor in the nineteenth century to show us the way to think about infinity, which is accepted by most mathematicians now. There are infinitely many counting numbers; any number you write down is a negligible step along the way to infinity. So Cantor’s idea was to imagine we have a package containing all these numbers; put a label on it saying “The natural numbers”, and treat the package as a single entity. If you want to study individual numbers, you can break open the package and take them out to look at them.  Now you can take any collection of these packages, and bundle them up to form another single entity. Thus, set theory is born. Cantor investigated ways of measuring these sets, and today set theory is the commonest foundation for mathematics, though other foundations have been proposed. 

One of Cantor’s discoveries is that there is no largest infinite set: given any set you can always find a larger one. The smallest infinite set is the set of natural numbers. What comes next is a puzzle which can’t be resolved at present. It may be the real (decimal) numbers, or maybe not. Our current foundations are not strong enough, and building larger telescopes will not help with this question. Perhaps in the future we will adopt new foundations for mathematics which will resolve the question.

These questions keep set theorists awake at night; but most mathematicians work near the bottom of this dizzying hierarchy, with small infinities. For example, Euclid proved that the prime numbers “go on for ever”. (Aristotle would say, “Whatever prime you find, I can find a larger one.”

While Kronecker (a fierce opponent of Cantor’s ideas) thought in the nineteenth century that “God created the natural numbers; the rest is the work of man”, we can now build the natural numbers using the tools of set theory, starting from nothing (more precisely the empty set).

Mathematicians know, however, that there is a huge gap between the finite and the infinite. If you toss a coin 100 times, it is not impossible (just very unlikely) that it will come down tails each time. But, if you could imagine tossing a coin infinitely often, then the chance of not getting heads and tails equally often is zero. Of course, you could never actually perform this experiment; but mathematics is a conceptual science, and we are happy to accept this statement on the basis of a rigorous proof.

Infinity in physics and cosmology has not been resolved so satisfactorily. The two great twentieth-century theories of physics, general relativity (the theory of the very large) and quantum mechanics (the theory of the very small) have resisted attempts to unite them. The one thing most physicists can agree on is that the universe came into being a finite time ago (about 13.7 billion years) — large, but not infinite. 

The James Webb Space Telescope has just begun showing us unprecedented details in the universe. As well as nearby objects, it sees the furthest objects ever observed. Because light travels at a finite speed, these are also the oldest objects observed, having been formed close to the beginning of the Universe. The finite speed of light also puts limits on what we can see; if an object is so far away that its light could not reach us if it travelled for the whole age of the universe, then we are unaware of its existence. So Malunkyaputta’s question about whether the universe is finite or infinite is moot. But is it eternal or not? That is a real question, and is so far undecided.

Attempts to reconcile relativity and quantum theory have been made. The ones currently most promising adopt a very radical attitude to infinity. They deny that the infinitely small can exist in the universe, but prescribe a minimum possible scale, essentially the so-called Planck scale.

Such a solution would put an end to Zeno’s paradox. Zeno denied the possibility of motion, since to move from A to B you first have to move to a point C halfway to B, and before that to a point D halfway from A to C, and so on to infinity. If space is not infinitely divisible, then this infinite regress cannot occur. (This solution was already grasped by Democritus and the early Greek atomists.)

Of course, this leaves us with a conceptual problem similar to the one raised by the possibility that the university is finite. In that case, the obvious question is “If the universe has an edge, what is beyond it?” In the case of the Planck length, the question would be “Given any length, however small, why can’t I just take half of it?”

Perhaps because we have been conditioned by Zeno’s paradox, we tend to think of the points on a line to be, like the real numbers, infinitely divisible: between any two we can find another. But current thinking is that the universe is not built this way.

More important to physics, the atomist hypothesis also gets rid of another annoying occurrence of infinity in physics. Black holes in general relativity are points of spacetime where the density of matter becomes infinite and the laws of physics break down. These have been a thorn in the flesh of cosmologists since their existence was first predicted, since by definition we cannot understand what happens there. If space is discrete, we cannot put infinitely many things infinitely close together, and the paradox is avoided. We can still have extremely high density; the black hole recently observed and photographed at the centre of our own galaxy is (on this theory) just a point of such high density that light cannot escape, but does not defy our ability to understand it.

Time, however, remains a problem; current theories cannot decide the ultimate fate of the universe. Does it end with heat death, a cold dark universe where nothing happens? Does the mysterious “dark energy” become so strong that it rips the universe to shreds? Or does the expansion from the Big Bang go into reverse, so that the universe ends in a Big Crunch?

None of this matters to us individually. The sun will expand and swallow the earth long before the universe reaches its end.

Full article at IAI News.

Although this article glosses over some concepts in physics and cosmology, it raises interesting points to ponder.

Comments
He was going to have Tuna on Toast, which he had chosen regularly before. He got Chicken Salad on Rye, Untoasted. Jerry said Salmon was the Opposite of Tuna. lol Andrewasauber
October 3, 2022
October
10
Oct
3
03
2022
05:43 AM
5
05
43
AM
PST
Furthermore, George got to define what The Opposite was. Going over and talking to the blonde at the counter was The Opposite, although it didn't have to be. He picked what The Opposite was based on happenstance. Andrewasauber
October 3, 2022
October
10
Oct
3
03
2022
05:35 AM
5
05
35
AM
PST
"1) Choices must be based upon our beliefs (and desires and so on and so on)" They don't. George Costanza did The Opposite because he thought it could provide better outcomes (*his* imagination). Those choices were based on a silly notion, a maybe, not a real belief in anything specific. The fact that he could do The Opposite or not do The Opposite, and chose among both, at various times means what? Andrewasauber
October 3, 2022
October
10
Oct
3
03
2022
05:29 AM
5
05
29
AM
PST
Q, I wasn't blowing off Smolin. It was the other guy who was bringing up the context of a static arena of space and time. I understood the modern view that Smolin was talking about. Maybe I'll go watch the second half, but watching people talk is just such a slow and unsatisfactory way for me to get information.Viola Lee
October 3, 2022
October
10
Oct
3
03
2022
05:18 AM
5
05
18
AM
PST
And as the following paper stated, "religious non-belief is cognitively effortful."
Richard Dawkins take heed: Even atheists instinctively believe in a creator says study - Mary Papenfuss - June 12, 2015 Excerpt: Three studies at Boston University found that even among atheists, the "knee jerk" reaction to natural phenomenon is the belief that they're purposefully designed by some intelligence, according to a report on the research in Cognition entitled the "Divided Mind of a disbeliever." The findings "suggest that there is a deeply rooted natural tendency to view nature as designed," writes a research team led by Elisa Järnefelt of Newman University. They also provide evidence that, in the researchers' words, "religious non-belief is cognitively effortful." Researchers attempted to plug into the automatic or "default" human brain by showing subjects images of natural landscapes and things made by human beings, then requiring lightning-fast responses to the question on whether "any being purposefully made the thing in the picture," notes Pacific-Standard. "Religious participants' baseline tendency to endorse nature as purposefully created was higher" than that of atheists, the study found. But non-religious participants "increasingly defaulted to understanding natural phenomena as purposefully made" when "they did not have time to censor their thinking," wrote the researchers. The results suggest that "the tendency to construe both living and non-living nature as intentionally made derives from automatic cognitive processes, not just practised explicit beliefs," the report concluded. The results were similar even among subjects from Finland, where atheism is not a controversial issue as it can be in the US. "Design-based intuitions run deep," the researchers conclude, "persisting even in those with no explicit religious commitment and, indeed, even among those with an active aversion to them." http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/richard-dawkins-take-heed-even-atheists-instinctively-believe-creator-says-study-1505712
It is not that Atheists do not believe in Design, it is that Atheists, for whatever severely misguided reason, live in denial of the Design that they themselves believe exists in nature. Perhaps the two most famous quotes of atheists trying to suppress their innate and preexistent ‘design belief’ are the two following quotes:
“Yet the living results of natural selection overwhelmingly impress us with the appearance of design as if by a master watchmaker, impress us with the illusion of design and planning.” - Richard Dawkins – “The Blind Watchmaker” – 1986 – page 21 “Biologists must constantly keep in mind that what they see was not designed, but rather evolved. It might be thought, therefore, that evolutionary arguments would play a large part in guiding biological research, but this is far from the case” - Francis Crick – What Mad Pursuit - 1988
It is very easy to see why Francis Crick in particular, co-discoverer of the DNA helix, would be constantly haunted by his innate belief that life must be Intelligently Designed. DNA itself literally screams, “I AM INTELLIGENTLY DESIGNED” from every angle that you look at it.
A few factoids about DNA https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/movie-night-with-illustra-a-whale-of-a-story-and-18-trillion-feet-of-you/#comment-745611
I hold the preceding studies which found that "religious non-belief is cognitively effortful" to be confirming evidence for the claim made in Romans 1:19-20
Romans 1:19-20 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
One final note, as mentioned previously, for Dogdoc's argument against free will to have a chance at being successful, it cannot assume Darwinian materialism, and/or Atheistic materialism, as being true, but must assume Theism as being true. And indeed, Calvinists, due to the Sovereignty of God, have been arguing against the reality of free will, in much the same manner as Dodoc currently is, for several hundred years now.
Do humans have a free will? Calvinism says “No!” Excerpt: Here are some Calvinist quotes about Free will: “Free will is nonsense” (Spurgeon, Free Will a Slave, 3). “Free will makes man his own savior and his own god” (Tom Ross, Abandoned Truth, 56). “The heresy of free will dethrones God and enthrones man. … The ideas of free grace and free will are diametrically opposed. All who are strict advocates of free will are strangers to the grace of the sovereign God” (W. E. Best, Free Grace Versus Free Will, 35, 43).,,, https://redeeminggod.com/no-free-will-in-calvinism/
And here is an excellent sermon by Tim Keller that, at the 12:00 minute mark, gets the Calvinists’ view of God’s sovereignty trumping our free will across very well
Does God Control Everything? – Tim Keller – (God’s sovereignty, evil, and our free will, how do they mesh? Short answer? God’s Omniscience!) – video (12:00 minute mark) https://youtu.be/MDbKCZodtZI?t=727
So, since his argument cannot possibly be based in Atheistic/Darwinian materialism, is Dogdoc arguing for Calvinism? Of related note, according to original sources, Calvin’s view of free will is far more nuanced than is often portrayed in these debates on the internet these days:
Did John Calvin Believe in Free Will? – SEPTEMBER 12, 2014 Excerpt: So did Calvin believe in free will? That all depends on the meaning. If by free will one means that the unbeliever is in no way necessitated by sin, but has it in his power to either do good or evil toward God, then the answer is no. But if one means that the unbeliever is in total bondage to sin, sinning willfully yet under necessity (not coercion), making him utterly dependent upon God’s irresistible grace to liberate him, then Calvin is your man. https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/did-john-calvin-believe-in-free-will/ Free will in theology Excerpt: John Calvin ascribed "free will" to all people in the sense that they act "voluntarily, and not by compulsion."[117] He elaborated his position by allowing "that man has choice and that it is self-determined" and that his actions stem from "his own voluntary choosing."[118] The free will that Calvin ascribed to all people is what Mortimer Adler calls the "natural freedom" of the will. This freedom to will what one desires is inherent in all people.[16] Calvin held this kind of inherent/natural[119] free will in disesteem because unless people acquire the freedom to live as they ought by being transformed, they will desire and voluntarily choose to sin. "Man is said to have free will," wrote Calvin, "because he acts voluntarily, and not by compulsion. This is perfectly true: but why should so small a matter have been dignified with so proud a title?"[120] The glitch in this inherent/natural freedom of the will is that although all people have the "faculty of willing," by nature they are unavoidably (and yet voluntarily without compulsion) under "the bondage of sin."[121] The kind of free will that Calvin esteems is what Adler calls "acquired freedom" of the will, the freedom/ability[122] "to live as [one] ought." To possess acquired free will requires a change by which a person acquires a desire to live a life marked by virtuous qualities.[20] As Calvin describes the change required for acquired freedom, the will "must be wholly transformed and renovated."[123] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will_in_theology#Calvinism Like John Calvin, Arminius affirmed total depravity, but Arminius believed that only prevenient grace allowed people to choose salvation: Concerning grace and free will, this is what I teach according to the Scriptures and orthodox consent: Free will is unable to begin or to perfect any true and spiritual good, without grace.... This grace [prœvenit] goes before, accompanies, and follows; it excites, assists, operates that we will, and co operates lest we will in vain.[71] Prevenient grace is divine grace which precedes human decision. It exists prior to and without reference to anything humans may have done. As humans are corrupted by the effects of sin, prevenient grace allows persons to engage their God-given free will to choose the salvation offered by God in Jesus Christ or to reject that salvific offer. Thomas Jay Oord offers perhaps the most cogent free will theology presupposing prevenient grace. What he calls "essential kenosis" says God acts preveniently to give freedom/agency to all creatures. This gift comes from God's eternal essence, and is therefore necessary. God remains free in choosing how to love, but the fact that God loves and therefore gives freedom/agency to others is a necessary part of what it means to be divine. This view is backed in the Bible with verses such as Luke 13:34, NKJV "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!" Here we see Jesus lamenting that He is unable to save Jerusalem as they are not willing. We see that whilst Jesus wants to save Jerusalem He respects their choice to continue on in sin despite His will that they be saved. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will_in_theology#Arminianism
Thus even Calvin, although having a very high view of God’s sovereignty, did not strictly deny the reality of free will in man in regards to man’s salvation. And, as a Christian myself who has experienced the grace of God in my life, I can live with Calvin’s nuanced view of free will. A nuanced view that, whilst not completely denying the reality of free will, does respectfully have a very high regard for God’s sovereignty over creation. i.e. Regardless of whatever ‘evil’ and/or sin that a man may choose to do in contradiction to God’s perfect will for his life, never the less “God causes all things to work together for good”. And also makes room for God's will in that God is "not willing for any to perish, but all to come to repentance." Verses:
Romans 8:28? And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord does not delay the promise, as some esteem slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but all to come to repentance.
bornagain77
October 3, 2022
October
10
Oct
3
03
2022
04:09 AM
4
04
09
AM
PST
Although Dogdoc has played coy in this thread and has refused to be specific about what his exact overarching worldview is, (when I asked him to be specific about his exact worldview so that I could more properly address his argument, he said that I was attaching 'labels' (see post 124)), I hold that Dogdoc's argument against free will, in order to have a chance at being successful, cannot assume Darwinian materialism, and/or Atheistic materialism, as being true, but must assume Theism as being true.
1) Choices must be based upon our beliefs (and desires and so on and so on) 2) In order for our choices to be free, our beliefs must be freely chosen by us. 3) Like all choices, the choice of our beliefs will be based upon our beliefs. 4) It is therefore not possible to choose one’s beliefs until one has already chosen one’s beliefs 5) Therefore it is logically impossible to make free choices
Dogdoc's argument rests on the premise that all our present decisions are based on preexistent beliefs and that these preexistent beliefs cannot be chosen by us. So far so good. But in order for a person to have beliefs in the first place, a person must first have an immaterial mind and soul in which to hold those beliefs, and a person cannot be a purely material being as is held within Atheistic/Darwinian materialism. As J.P. Moreland explains at the 3:30 mark of the following interview, "It is because we, (as souls), have a faculty of (immaterial) mind that we are capable of having concepts, thoughts, beliefs,,, things like that.",,,
"It is because we, (as souls), have a faculty of (immaterial) mind that we are capable of having concepts, thoughts, beliefs,,, things like that.",,, - J.P. Moreland - Is the Soul Immortal? https://youtu.be/QzbdT0GxAdk?t=209
As Dr. Egnor explained, (and as was mentioned previously), "Human beings have the power to contemplate universals, which are concepts that have no material instantiation. Human beings think about mathematics, literature, art, language, justice, mercy, (love), and an endless library of abstract concepts..,,, Contemplation of universals cannot have material instantiation, because universals themselves are not material and cannot be instantiated in matter.,,,"
The Fundamental Difference Between Humans and Nonhuman Animals - Michael Egnor - November 5, 2015 Excerpt: Human beings have mental powers that include the material mental powers of animals but in addition entail a profoundly different kind of thinking. Human beings think abstractly, and nonhuman animals do not. Human beings have the power to contemplate universals, which are concepts that have no material instantiation. Human beings think about mathematics, literature, art, language, justice, mercy, (love), and an endless library of abstract concepts. Human beings are rational animals. Human rationality is not merely a highly evolved kind of animal perception. Human rationality is qualitatively different — ontologically different — from animal perception. Human rationality is different because it is immaterial. Contemplation of universals cannot have material instantiation, because universals themselves are not material and cannot be instantiated in matter.,,, A human being is material and immaterial — a composite being. We have material bodies, and our perceptions and imaginations and appetites are material powers, instantiated in our brains. But our intellect — our ability to think abstractly — is a wholly immaterial power, and our will that acts in accordance with our intellect is an immaterial power. Our intellect and our will depend on matter for their ordinary function, in the sense that they depend upon perception and imagination and memory, but they are not themselves made of matter. It is in our ability to think abstractly that we differ from apes. It is a radical difference — an immeasurable qualitative difference, not a quantitative difference. We are more different from apes than apes are from viruses. Our difference is a metaphysical chasm. It is obvious and manifest in our biological nature. We are rational animals, and our rationality is all the difference. Systems of taxonomy that emphasize physical and genetic similarities and ignore the fact that human beings are partly immaterial beings who are capable of abstract thought and contemplation of moral law and eternity are pitifully inadequate to describe man. The assertion that man is an ape is self-refuting. We could not express such a concept, misguided as it is, if we were apes and not men. https://evolutionnews.org/2015/11/the_fundamental_2/
To further solidify the claim that the beliefs of our immaterial mind "cannot be instantiated in matter", In the free will theorem of Conway and Kochen we find that "it would not even be possible to place the information into the universe’s past in an ad hoc way."
The Free Will Theorem of Conway and Kochen Excerpt: Since the free will theorem applies to any arbitrary physical theory consistent with the axioms, it would not even be possible to place the information into the universe’s past in an ad hoc way. The argument proceeds from the Kochen-Specker theorem, which shows that the result of any individual measurement of spin was not fixed (pre-determined) independently of the choice of measurements. Conway and Kochen describe new bits of information coming into existence in the universe, and we agree that information is the key to understanding both EPR entanglement experiments and human free will.,,, ,,, it is essential to solutions of the ‘problem of measurement’ to recognize that the “cut” between the quantum world and the classical world is the moment when new information enters the universe irreversibly.,,, https://www.informationphilosopher.com/freedom/free_will_theorem.html “The Kochen-Speckter Theorem talks about properties of one system only. So we know that we cannot assume – to put it precisely, we know that it is wrong to assume that the features of a system, which we observe in a measurement exist prior to measurement. Not always. I mean in certain cases. So in a sense, what we perceive as reality now depends on our earlier decision what to measure. Which is a very, very, deep message about the nature of reality and our part in the whole universe. We are not just passive observers.” Anton Zeilinger – Quantum Physics Debunks Materialism – video (7:17 minute mark) https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=4C5pq7W5yRM#t=437
Atheistic/Darwinian materialism is simply a non-starter in so far as explaining our preexistent beliefs. And since any preexistent beliefs that we may have must be properties of our immaterial mind, and since Dogdoc's entire argument against free will rests on the notion of preexistent beliefs, it is fitting to ask exactly what preexistent belief(s) are we born with? Well, it is now found that children are born with a "predisposition to believe in a supreme being because they assume that everything in the world was created with a purpose."
Children are born believers in God, academic claims - 24 Nov 2008 Excerpt: "Dr Justin Barrett, a senior researcher at the University of Oxford's Centre for Anthropology and Mind, claims that young people have a predisposition to believe in a supreme being because they assume that everything in the world was created with a purpose." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/3512686/Children-are-born-believers-in-God-academic-claims.html Out of the mouths of babes - Do children believe (in God) because they're told to by adults? The evidence suggests otherwise - Justin Barrett - 2008 Excerpt: • Children tend to see natural objects as designed or purposeful in ways that go beyond what their parents teach, as Deborah Kelemen has demonstrated. Rivers exist so that we can go fishing on them, and birds are here to look pretty. • Children doubt that impersonal processes can create order or purpose. Studies with children show that they expect that someone not something is behind natural order. No wonder that Margaret Evans found that children younger than 10 favoured creationist accounts of the origins of animals over evolutionary accounts even when their parents and teachers endorsed evolution. Authorities' testimony didn't carry enough weight to over-ride a natural tendency. • Children know humans are not behind the order so the idea of a creating god (or gods) makes sense to them. Children just need adults to specify which one. • Experimental evidence, including cross-cultural studies, suggests that three-year-olds attribute super, god-like qualities to lots of different beings. Super-power, super-knowledge and super-perception seem to be default assumptions. Children then have to learn that mother is fallible, and dad is not all powerful, and that people will die. So children may be particularly receptive to the idea of a super creator-god. It fits their predilections. • Recent research by Paul Bloom, Jesse Bering, and Emma Cohen suggests that children may also be predisposed to believe in a soul that persists beyond death. http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2008/nov/25/religion-children-god-belief
In fact, besides children being predisposed to believe in God, studies have now established that 'belief in design' is ‘knee jerk’ inference that is built into everyone, especially including atheists, and that atheists themselves have to mentally work suppressing their “knee jerk” design inference!
Is Atheism a Delusion? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ii-bsrHB0o Design Thinking Is Hardwired in the Human Brain. How Come? - October 17, 2012 Excerpt: "Even Professional Scientists Are Compelled to See Purpose in Nature, Psychologists Find." The article describes a test by Boston University's psychology department, in which researchers found that "despite years of scientific training, even professional chemists, geologists, and physicists from major universities such as Harvard, MIT, and Yale cannot escape a deep-seated belief that natural phenomena exist for a purpose" ,,, Most interesting, though, are the questions begged by this research. One is whether it is even possible to purge teleology from explanation. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/10/design_thinking065381.html
bornagain77
October 3, 2022
October
10
Oct
3
03
2022
04:07 AM
4
04
07
AM
PST
Viola Lee @213,
The idea that space is an arena in which things happen as time goes by as been outdated for 100 years.
As you might remember, Lee Smolin has gone back to separating time from space as a result of the difficulties raised by spacetime. If you're at all interested in why, you might want to see the rest of the interview rather than simply blowing off Lee Smolin as 100 years out-of-date, which certainly isn't a fair or informed judgment! His latest book (2019) is https://leesmolin.com/einsteins-unfinished-revolution/ -QQuerius
October 2, 2022
October
10
Oct
2
02
2022
10:00 PM
10
10
00
PM
PST
VL @210
That doesn’t really challenge DD’s view, because one could say that one had more important, higher priority “preferences”. Very often choices involve conflicts among various aspects of our self (preferences, values, needs, etc.), and we wind up choosing to forego things we really would like to pay attention to because other motivations are more compelling.
It is very gratifying to see someone who understands this so well! Thank you.
...we wind up choosing to forego things we really would like to pay attention to because other motivations are more compelling.
This is precisely why I included "priorities" in my list of reasons people use to guide their decisions.dogdoc
October 2, 2022
October
10
Oct
2
02
2022
06:02 PM
6
06
02
PM
PST
KF,
DD, have you ever made a wrenching, painful decision in the teeth of your preferences or wishes? Have you ever done a job under protest? That should answer your further distortion.
In order to refute my argument you'll need to show which of my premises you think are false or why they don't lead to the conclusion I've made. 1) Choices must be based upon our beliefs (and desires and so on and so on) 2) In order for our choices to be free, our beliefs must be freely chosen by us. 3) Like all choices, the choice of our beliefs will be based upon our beliefs. 4) It is therefore not possible to choose one’s beliefs until one has already chosen one’s beliefs 5) Therefore it is logically impossible to make free choices Or, at the very least, just informally explain to us what it is you think is wrong with my argument. Instead, you call my argument a "distortion", which is weird, and make a cryptic comment that doesn't explain why my argument fails. I will try to clarify where you go wrong, however - if not for your sake then for interested readers: Let's say I make a wrenching, painful decision in the teeth of my preferences or wishes. Very obviously, I would only do that if I had a very good reason. For example, let's say I have an old, terminally ill dog, near death, who has no chance of recovery, and is in agony. While I would of course wish and prefer that my dog continue to live, I make the wrenching, painful decision to euthanize him in order to spare him pointless suffering. Did I exercise free will in this example? No, of course not. I didn't deliberate over whether or not to love my dog - I simply love my dog without ever choosing to. I didn't freely choose my desire for him to avoid living his remaining hours in agony; I couldn't possibly feel any other way. And so on - all of my deliberations rest on unchosen reasons. Anyway, I've made these points many times on this page already. It appears you are either unwilling or unable to understand my position; in fact you are apparently still under the impression that I am invoking determinism as the defeater of free choice, even though I've corrected that misapprehension over and over again. In any event I'm not very hopeful that you will attempt to refute my argument - I believe you cannot.dogdoc
October 2, 2022
October
10
Oct
2
02
2022
06:01 PM
6
06
01
PM
PST
Your right about your role in the free will discussion. As it pertains to humans, that came out of discussion between BA and dogdoc. However, you wrote, "In 189, I tried to address your question about God, free will, and determinism" and I don't think I've had anything to say about God on this thread. Also I listened to about 1/2 the Smolin video at double speed with closed captions on: seems like it was pretty basic. The idea that space is an arena in which things happen as time goes by as been outdated for 100 years. Good popularization, I suppose.Viola Lee
October 2, 2022
October
10
Oct
2
02
2022
05:02 PM
5
05
02
PM
PST
Ba77, Back to quantum computing. Researchers are making such computers and a recent breakthrough in error correction will allow for larger versions. https://phys.org/news/2022-09-quantum-technology-unprecedented-captured.html Regardless of the math, the quantum world, so far as it is known, is being put to practical use.relatd
October 2, 2022
October
10
Oct
2
02
2022
04:36 PM
4
04
36
PM
PST
Viola Lee @194,
re 191 to Q: It was BornAgain who repeatedly brought up free will in the first part of this thread. You were the first person to respond to that at post 79, and then dogdoc responded to that.
But the context of 79 was wavefunction collapse, which I addressed as follows:
Our FREE WILL CHOICE of what to measure is intimately connected with the outcome, but if our choice is deterministic, then we’re part of a Von Neumann chain that goes back to the big bang, which means that a single point is responsible for all of space-time, mass-energy, plus dark matter, dark energy, and contains ALL the information in the universe for ALL of history, including ALL our choices.
The big bang supposedly started at a point that was infinitely small and included all of spacetime, mass-energy, and the supposedly predetermined information that initiated deterministic materialism. I also referenced the book, Quantum Enigma by Rosenblum and Kuttner, who emphasized FREE WILL CHOICE throughout their book. All of this is relevant to one aspect of "How infinity threatens cosmology." In 189, I tried to address your question about God, free will, and determinism from my perspective. And I'm still wondering:
Ok, back on the subject. So what did you think of the Lee Smolin interview by Robert Lawrence Kuhn in 162? https://youtu.be/QOAcQCFNtbo
-QQuerius
October 2, 2022
October
10
Oct
2
02
2022
04:34 PM
4
04
34
PM
PST
KF writes to DD, "DD, have you ever made a wrenching, painful decision in the teeth of your preferences or wishes? Have you ever done a job under protest? That should answer your further distortion. K" That doesn't really challenge DD's view, because one could say that one had more important, higher priority "preferences". Very often choices involve conflicts among various aspects of our self (preferences, values, needs, etc.), and we wind up choosing to forego things we really would like to pay attention to because other motivations are more compelling.Viola Lee
October 2, 2022
October
10
Oct
2
02
2022
02:37 PM
2
02
37
PM
PST
More or less, I agree KF. I've described my position about this quite a few times to you. My position is that via free will we determine ourselves: self-determination is the heart of the matter. We pay attention to all the myriad influences that course around both inside us and outside us, but ultimately it is our choices that make us who we are. P.S. I just saw your addition about the North Pole. I was only agreeing with your first sentence in 208 when I wrote what I did.Viola Lee
October 2, 2022
October
10
Oct
2
02
2022
02:19 PM
2
02
19
PM
PST
VL, I hold that absent significant freedom, responsible rationality is impossible; for cause. We are influenced but not determined. And for a mind broadening concept, note that the North Pole is due North of every other point on the Earth . . . so, what is the time there, becomes a good test. KFkairosfocus
October 2, 2022
October
10
Oct
2
02
2022
02:12 PM
2
02
12
PM
PST
DD, have you ever made a wrenching, painful decision in the teeth of your preferences or wishes? Have you ever done a job under protest? That should answer your further distortion. KFkairosfocus
October 2, 2022
October
10
Oct
2
02
2022
02:10 PM
2
02
10
PM
PST
I have no control over my choices! I'm not responsible! Oh brother... As a person with free will, I only have two choices: Do what is right or do what is wrong. I think most people would do what is right, in most cases. Note: I will not reply to the Vague Argument, meaning "We can't really know anything about anything, especially when talking about human behavior!" Baloney.relatd
October 2, 2022
October
10
Oct
2
02
2022
02:09 PM
2
02
09
PM
PST
Then I won't hold you responsible, BA, for not taking responsibility. :-) But you might look at my 190. And, by the way, I believe in free will: the issue is trying to describe what that means, how it works in respect to our overall being, and its relationship to a metaphysical framework. You can choose to investigate the issue, or not, and to communicate and discuss in whatever manner you want. I actually do consider you responsible for the way you behave in your communications here.Viola Lee
October 2, 2022
October
10
Oct
2
02
2022
01:47 PM
1
01
47
PM
PST
VL: "It was BornAgain who repeatedly brought up free will" But alas, I have no free will. Forces beyond my control repeatedly brought it up, :)bornagain77
October 2, 2022
October
10
Oct
2
02
2022
01:40 PM
1
01
40
PM
PST
Do you not know what putative means? What is the point of 202?Viola Lee
October 2, 2022
October
10
Oct
2
02
2022
01:32 PM
1
01
32
PM
PST
Paxx at 197, putative? Hey Bob. Did you hear about those putative hypotheses? The what hypotheses?relatd
October 2, 2022
October
10
Oct
2
02
2022
12:53 PM
12
12
53
PM
PST
Dogdoc at 193, "If one’s motivating reasons are beyond our control then we can’t be ultimately responsible." Let's see. In court to answer questions about reckless driving. "But your Honor, my motivating reasons are beyond my control!" Nonsense. I don't want to hear another word from you. Don't think I'm so stupid as to not see beyond your philosophical get out of jail free card. I find you guilty. Furthermore, I am suspending your driver's license for one year and you will be sent to a guidance counselor of this court's choosing.relatd
October 2, 2022
October
10
Oct
2
02
2022
12:47 PM
12
12
47
PM
PST
I’ll take it even to the superlative degree and say that we must always choose according to the strongest inclination at the moment.
:) Nope. God gave Commandments for a purpose.Sandy
October 2, 2022
October
10
Oct
2
02
2022
12:34 PM
12
12
34
PM
PST
VL “Vivid’s (and Sproul’s) key point, to which I concur, is the idea of self-determination. As long as my choices arise from me and are not coerced by external forces, they are freely chosen” You would think the idea of self determination would be pretty non controversial. If I am not determining my choices who the heck is? Vividvividbleau
October 2, 2022
October
10
Oct
2
02
2022
12:34 PM
12
12
34
PM
PST
Dogdoc at 193, "compatibilism" ? Did you just go the Book of Obscure Belief Systems and just pick one from column A and another from column B? "Compatibilism offers a solution to the free will problem, which concerns a disputed incompatibility between free will and determinism. Compatibilism is the thesis that free will is compatible with determinism. Because free will is typically taken to be a necessary condition of moral responsibility, compatibilism is sometimes expressed as a thesis about the compatibility between moral responsibility and determinism." Nonsense.relatd
October 2, 2022
October
10
Oct
2
02
2022
12:19 PM
12
12
19
PM
PST
relatd: though scientists are having trouble coming up with a description to link them This is actually not the case. There are plenty of putative hypotheses that link the quantum world with gravity. The challenge is testing them.Paxx
October 2, 2022
October
10
Oct
2
02
2022
12:05 PM
12
12
05
PM
PST
always being led into the swamps of vacuous assertions on topics not related to the OP
We have free will not to respond. Did the third Donkey have no free will? See below. https://twitter.com/buitengebieden/status/1576288280500240385 All three are future Republicans. The third one is a potential Presidential candidate.jerry
October 2, 2022
October
10
Oct
2
02
2022
10:02 AM
10
10
02
AM
PST
Thanks Viola :-) Q, my argument actually hinges on the impossibility of an infinite regress of reasons - perhaps that will qualify it as being on topic on this thread?dogdoc
October 2, 2022
October
10
Oct
2
02
2022
09:35 AM
9
09
35
AM
PST
re 191 to Q: It was BornAgain who repeatedly brought up free will in the first part of this thread. You were the first person to respond to that at post 79, and then dogdoc responded to that. I suggest you talk to BA about "always being led into the swamps of vacuous assertions on topics not related to the OP", and look at your role in turning the discussion to free will.Viola Lee
October 2, 2022
October
10
Oct
2
02
2022
09:30 AM
9
09
30
AM
PST
Again, compatibilism offers a way to make sense of moral responsibilty and enables us to understand each other as agents. But clearly, the sort of ultimate responsibility and freedom that we intuitively feel can't exist: If one's motivating reasons are beyond our control then we can't be ultimately responsible. As I've said, if one's beliefs and desires had been implanted by an evil neuroscientist, or a hypnotist, then we would not hold that person responsible for their choices. What I'm arguing is that this is functionally the scenario that all of us are in - but instead of the neuroscientist or hypnotist we have our inherited tendencies and environmental influences.dogdoc
October 2, 2022
October
10
Oct
2
02
2022
09:14 AM
9
09
14
AM
PST
1 19 20 21 22 23 28

Leave a Reply