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From IAI News: How infinity threatens cosmology

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Peter Cameron, Emeritus Professor Mathematics at Queen Mary, University of London, writes:

There are many approaches to infinity through the twin pillars of science and religion, but I will just restrict my attention here to the views of mathematicians and physicists.

22 09 23.infinity2.ata
IAI News

Aristotle was one of the most influential Greek philosophers. He believed that we could consider “potential infinity” (we can count objects without knowing how many more are coming) but that a “completed infinity” is taboo. For mathematicians, infinity was off-limits for two millennia after Aristotle’s ban. Galileo tried to tackle the problem, noting that an infinite set could be matched up with a part of itself, but in the end drew back. It was left to Cantor in the nineteenth century to show us the way to think about infinity, which is accepted by most mathematicians now. There are infinitely many counting numbers; any number you write down is a negligible step along the way to infinity. So Cantor’s idea was to imagine we have a package containing all these numbers; put a label on it saying “The natural numbers”, and treat the package as a single entity. If you want to study individual numbers, you can break open the package and take them out to look at them.  Now you can take any collection of these packages, and bundle them up to form another single entity. Thus, set theory is born. Cantor investigated ways of measuring these sets, and today set theory is the commonest foundation for mathematics, though other foundations have been proposed. 

One of Cantor’s discoveries is that there is no largest infinite set: given any set you can always find a larger one. The smallest infinite set is the set of natural numbers. What comes next is a puzzle which can’t be resolved at present. It may be the real (decimal) numbers, or maybe not. Our current foundations are not strong enough, and building larger telescopes will not help with this question. Perhaps in the future we will adopt new foundations for mathematics which will resolve the question.

These questions keep set theorists awake at night; but most mathematicians work near the bottom of this dizzying hierarchy, with small infinities. For example, Euclid proved that the prime numbers “go on for ever”. (Aristotle would say, “Whatever prime you find, I can find a larger one.”

While Kronecker (a fierce opponent of Cantor’s ideas) thought in the nineteenth century that “God created the natural numbers; the rest is the work of man”, we can now build the natural numbers using the tools of set theory, starting from nothing (more precisely the empty set).

Mathematicians know, however, that there is a huge gap between the finite and the infinite. If you toss a coin 100 times, it is not impossible (just very unlikely) that it will come down tails each time. But, if you could imagine tossing a coin infinitely often, then the chance of not getting heads and tails equally often is zero. Of course, you could never actually perform this experiment; but mathematics is a conceptual science, and we are happy to accept this statement on the basis of a rigorous proof.

Infinity in physics and cosmology has not been resolved so satisfactorily. The two great twentieth-century theories of physics, general relativity (the theory of the very large) and quantum mechanics (the theory of the very small) have resisted attempts to unite them. The one thing most physicists can agree on is that the universe came into being a finite time ago (about 13.7 billion years) — large, but not infinite. 

The James Webb Space Telescope has just begun showing us unprecedented details in the universe. As well as nearby objects, it sees the furthest objects ever observed. Because light travels at a finite speed, these are also the oldest objects observed, having been formed close to the beginning of the Universe. The finite speed of light also puts limits on what we can see; if an object is so far away that its light could not reach us if it travelled for the whole age of the universe, then we are unaware of its existence. So Malunkyaputta’s question about whether the universe is finite or infinite is moot. But is it eternal or not? That is a real question, and is so far undecided.

Attempts to reconcile relativity and quantum theory have been made. The ones currently most promising adopt a very radical attitude to infinity. They deny that the infinitely small can exist in the universe, but prescribe a minimum possible scale, essentially the so-called Planck scale.

Such a solution would put an end to Zeno’s paradox. Zeno denied the possibility of motion, since to move from A to B you first have to move to a point C halfway to B, and before that to a point D halfway from A to C, and so on to infinity. If space is not infinitely divisible, then this infinite regress cannot occur. (This solution was already grasped by Democritus and the early Greek atomists.)

Of course, this leaves us with a conceptual problem similar to the one raised by the possibility that the university is finite. In that case, the obvious question is “If the universe has an edge, what is beyond it?” In the case of the Planck length, the question would be “Given any length, however small, why can’t I just take half of it?”

Perhaps because we have been conditioned by Zeno’s paradox, we tend to think of the points on a line to be, like the real numbers, infinitely divisible: between any two we can find another. But current thinking is that the universe is not built this way.

More important to physics, the atomist hypothesis also gets rid of another annoying occurrence of infinity in physics. Black holes in general relativity are points of spacetime where the density of matter becomes infinite and the laws of physics break down. These have been a thorn in the flesh of cosmologists since their existence was first predicted, since by definition we cannot understand what happens there. If space is discrete, we cannot put infinitely many things infinitely close together, and the paradox is avoided. We can still have extremely high density; the black hole recently observed and photographed at the centre of our own galaxy is (on this theory) just a point of such high density that light cannot escape, but does not defy our ability to understand it.

Time, however, remains a problem; current theories cannot decide the ultimate fate of the universe. Does it end with heat death, a cold dark universe where nothing happens? Does the mysterious “dark energy” become so strong that it rips the universe to shreds? Or does the expansion from the Big Bang go into reverse, so that the universe ends in a Big Crunch?

None of this matters to us individually. The sun will expand and swallow the earth long before the universe reaches its end.

Full article at IAI News.

Although this article glosses over some concepts in physics and cosmology, it raises interesting points to ponder.

Comments
I have eaten the bait and gone off topic
what to you you think of Vivid’s post
I disagree. It would be silly to argue that internal desires don’t affect decisions. It would also be silly to argue that one does not consider multiple outcomes for most choices. Or the benefit/probability of the choices. But often, there is no clear preference and I must choose one. In all the decisions one makes each day and there are literally thousands, the choice is nearly always meaningless. For example, I’m sitting next to a window and just looked out. To say such a movement is determined at that moment is ludicrous. Leaving the house, I’ll walk on that stepping stone this time and not the other. To say I don’t have the capability to choose is an absurdity. To argue against ID is stupid. One has to willfully avoid the obvious. To willfully not read/accept the logic and evidence is a choice. It is an act of the will especially in an anonymous situation. But people do it all the time. Someone above tried to undermine ID by bringing up free will. An obvious willful choice. Now I often make the comment the most interesting thing is why someone won’t accept the obvious. Does the person not accepting the obvious do so because they are internally determined to not do so. Now, I can see an academic or some professionals doing so because of financial reasons. But for the average anti ID person, they choose to ignore the obvious and be obstructive. I believe we are conflating everyday mundane things with serious decisions. However, in both we have choices. My niece just spent a year making up her mind on what college to attend. She finally made a choice last Spring and now is a freshman. If it was predetermined, what a waste of time. All that is being said is that we cannot know all the factors affecting a choice including a last second quantum event. I agree. But we still have the power to change the decision. The world progresses in a lot of ways. If there was no free choice, why did this happen? Why are some amongst us trying to destroy the world? Is it their hate that is driving their anti human choices?jerry
October 2, 2022
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Jerry @185,
A troll comes along who doesn’t believe in anything he is saying. Spouts nonsense. And then all the guppies dutifully bite and he is happy.
Bravo! Likewise, I don't appreciate always being led into the swamps of vacuous assertions on topics not related to the OP. I'll go a little ways, but there's a limit when it seems simply to be the result of "someone shouting 'squirrel' at a dog show" to use my own analogy. -QQuerius
October 2, 2022
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Vivid's (and Sproul's) key point, to which I concur, is the idea of self-determination. As long as my choices arise from me and are not coerced by external forces, they are freely chosen. The complex of things within me that I take into consideration (reason, values, preferences, desires, needs, perhaps even whimsy, etc. - whatever you want to call them) are in some sense my business and no one else's. Those are all parts of my self (the space is intentional), and making my choices based on my self is what constitutes self-determination. Of course, one can ask why those component parts of my self are as they are, and get involved in discussing one's experiences, one's biological nature, one's rational assessment of evidence, etc. But no matter where that discussion trails off to, those things which are integrated into my being are me (whether I can voluntarily change them or not), and thus if I take them into consideration I am exercising free will in the sense of self-determination.Viola Lee
October 2, 2022
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Viola Lee @187,
KF and Jerry: what to you you think of Vivid’s post at 179?
Let me add my abbreviated perspectives to that of Vividbleau, Jerry, Kairosfocus. 1. It's more likely that I have a free will because I'm aware and feel like I do. Our social interactions also are predicated on free will. 2. If "God" created space and time (aka Einstein's spacetime), it doesn't make sense that "God" exists within time or is located somewhere in space. FWIW, I've previously described the violation of this concept as an "inverse Ouroboros." It also might make sense why the God of Moses named himself "I AM." 3. We experience time in one dimension and in one direction only. To get to tomorrow from yesterday, we have to pass through today. Yes, everything could be an illusion, but we sure don't drive our cars as such. Or hopefully not! 4. So imagine your life as a series of freewill choices and consequences (causality) along a timeline. It's easy if you try. ;-) Now turn the line "sideways." 5. Imagine "God" observing your life along this timeline but not located on the timeline. "God" is observing your life simultaneously happening from your birth to your death and all your freewill choices in between--all "at the same time." This perspective allows you to have free will AND for "God" to know your future without making you into a robot. Ok, back on the subject. So what did you think of the Lee Smolin interview by Robert Lawrence Kuhn in 162? https://youtu.be/QOAcQCFNtbo -QQuerius
October 2, 2022
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KF, You use "preferences" as a "global term" to describe the things that may factor into one's deliberations. You then suggest that there are things that are not preferences - tentative ideas, exemplars, whimsy, results of reasoning, conscience, and so on. But of course all of those things are just additional items to be added to the list of possible reasons for one's decisions. If, for example, you chose to use whimsy to make some decision, then either you chose whimsy for absolutely no reason at all, in which case you've made an arbitrary decision that does not constitute the sort of free will worth wanting, or you chose whimsy for some reason. Or, if you made a choice based on your conscience, then you would have to have freely chosen to have a conscience in order to be responsible for that choice. In all cases, the infinite regress makes ultimate responsibility impossible.dogdoc
October 2, 2022
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KF and Jerry: what to you you think of Vivid's post at 179?Viola Lee
October 2, 2022
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Jerry, there is a place for showing that no free will ARGUMENTS inherently assume what they set out to overturn. As in, oopsie! KF PS: I excerpt from 164 above:
for arguments to work at all, [a] they have to be freely made, hopefully informed by true facts and cogent reasoning . . . as opposed to presumably unconscious mechanical and/or stochastic programming AND [b] the listener or reader must also be significantly free. _______________________ [c1] If a and/or b fail, argument thus reason thus warrant and knowledge instantly fail, i.e. [c2] even the arguments of the proponent of determinism on dynamic-stochastic processes also fail, self discrediting just as immediately. SO INSTEAD =============================== [d] We can only argue on the prior implicit acceptance of responsible, rational freedom, so to argue is to implicitly accept it. That is why the whole exercise of trying to argue to refute responsible rational freedom must fail instantly through patent self referential incoherence, i.e. strong form absurdity. Whatever else reality is, it has in it creatures who argue and take argument seriously so must rest implicitly on having responsible, rational freedom. Onward, that freedom is morally governed [morality only applying to such freedom], starting with first duties of reason, to truth, to right reason, to warrant and wider prudence, to sound conscience etc.
That's now a point of reference for future oopsies.kairosfocus
October 2, 2022
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There must be something in this no free will argument. A troll comes along who doesn’t believe in anything he is saying. Spouts nonsense. And then all the guppies dutifully bite and he is happy. Irony: the one demonstrating free will is the troll.jerry
October 2, 2022
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DD, immediately, there are needless disputes over words; I used preferences as a global term. Next, you again sidestepped the point of what we imply by argument, see 164 above, to you: https://uncommondescent.com/cosmology/from-iai-news-how-infinity-threatens-cosmology/#comment-766405 . Then in your latest attempt at a reductio argument you trap yourself by failing to understand a self-moved first cause agent. Yes, there is undoubtedly a spiral of cumulative self-influences and experiences. However independent agency [required for argument] also allows for first tentative efforts on provisional principles [to be reinforced by success], for whimsy and for reasoned principle or decisions that put the right, duty or prudence before preference, global sense. So, one may make provisional choices on tentative ideas, one may follow exemplars, one may exert whimsy, one may act from worked out reason, one may act on results of a crisis of conscience and more. Your framework sets up and knocks over a strawman. KFkairosfocus
October 2, 2022
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KF,
it is safer to say, our desires, views, values, preferences, impulses, habits etc more or less strongly influence what we tend to do.
What else might influence or factor into your choice besides all of these things?
Unless you mean to impose the flawed tautology that whatever we choose is what we prefer.
Again, deliberations may be based upon beliefs desires, morals, priorities, values, preferences, commitments, fears, hopes, and so on. So of course I'm not only talking about preferences. What besides these things could possibly serve as reasons for a choice?
The point is, some of the most transforming decisions are those we take because we reason that they are right or even just prudent, despite our inclinations. Those are the decisions that lead to a fresh beginning.
In that case, the reason for your choice would be a moral belief, or a commitment to prudence. But how did you acquire that moral belief? How did you come to value prudence? Did you deliberate over these things, or did you simply find yourself with those beliefs and desires, the way we might just find ourselves with a desire for chocolate? Even if somehow you think you freely chose those beliefs and desires, if the reasons for your choice were not freely chosen by you then your choices still would not be free. And so on. 1) Choices must be based upon our beliefs (and desires and so on and so on) 2) In order for our choices to be free, our beliefs must be freely chosen by us. 3) Like all choices, the choice of our beliefs will be based upon our beliefs. 4) It is therefore not possible to choose one's beliefs until one has already chosen one's beliefs 5) Therefore it is logically impossible to make free choicesdogdoc
October 2, 2022
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Vivid, it is safer to say, our desires, views, values, preferences, impulses, habits etc more or less strongly influence what we tend to do. Unless you mean to impose the flawed tautology that whatever we choose is what we prefer. The point is, some of the most transforming decisions are those we take because we reason that they are right or even just prudent, despite our inclinations. Those are the decisions that lead to a fresh beginning. KFkairosfocus
October 1, 2022
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Vividbleau,
“3) The free choice of our own beliefs must be based upon beliefs we already hold” I once was an atheist and now I am a theist the exact opposite of what I believed before, what am I missing?
Our beliefs (and desires, priorities, etc.) change constantly! But at no time can you freely choose your beliefs. The idea that we can voluntarily change our beliefs is called doxastic voluntarism. My argument relies on the claim that voluntarism is false - that we cannot simply choose to believe whatever we want. The simplest way to see this is to try it: Right now, make a choice to believe that Rome is the capitol of France. Any luck? Sure, the issue is of course more nuanced than that, and you can certainly find some defenders of voluntarism, but I still think the position is obviously false. The most common defense of voluntarism is to cite the possibility of indirect voluntarism, where although people can't simply choose to change their belief, they can commit to some action(s) that have the effect of changing their beliefs. But indirect voluntarism doesn't amount to being ultimately responsible for your belief, because you had to have some unchosen reason (belief, desire, etc) in order to want your beliefs to change in the first place. Say you didn't believe in God, and then you witnessed a miracle, and now you do believe in God. Was that your free choice to change your belief? You did not choose to witness the miracle, and you did not choose how the miracle affected your belief, so you cannot be ultimately responsible for your conversion, and your choice to believe in God was not a free choice. Now let's say you read an article that says theists are happier than atheists, and you decide you would like to believe in God for that reason, but you aren't able to simply choose to start believing in Him. So you go to church and listen to wonderful things about God and meet lots of nice people who love God and after awhile you find you believe in God. This is an example of indirect voluntarism, but was this a free choice? No. Why did you choose to go to church? To be happier. Did you freely choose to want to be happy rather than unhappy? No, that was not a free choice, you just found (like most people) that you prefer happiness to unhappiness. So you did not freely choose the reason why you went to church in the first place, and the change in your belief was not freely chosen. Regarding your view of free will: I agree 100%. My description in @120 of a "proximate cause" was essentially the same compatibilist view: Even though we are not the ultimate authors of our choices, our choices still come from us. This is essentially what Sproulian compatibilism says. The main difference is that I do not talk about determinism in my argument. I think issues of causality in general are difficult, and determinism introduces unnecessary complications into thinking about free will. All we have to consider is our mental makeup (again - our beliefs, desires, priorities, commitments, fears, hopes, etc. etc.). We cannot determine our own mental makeup because to do so would require we are already the way we are before we can choose the way we are. Nietzsche referred to this as causa sui and pointed out the logical impossibility of creating yourself - using your beliefs and desires to select your beliefs and desires.dogdoc
October 1, 2022
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I like what Vivid says.Viola Lee
October 1, 2022
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DD I don’t want to hide the football ,here is my position regarding free will. It is free and determined. Free and Determined “We have seen Edwards’ view and Calvin’s view, so now we’ll go into the Sproulian view of free will by appealing to irony, or to a form of paradox. I would like to make this statement: in my opinion, every choice that we make is free, and every choice that we make is determined. Again, every choice that we make is free, and every choice that we make is determined. Now that sounds flatly contradictory because we normally see the categories of “determined” and “free” as mutually exclusive categories. To say that something is determined by something else, which is to say that it’s caused by something else, would seem to indicate that it couldn’t possibly be free. But what I’m speaking about is not determinism. Determinism means that things happen to me strictly by virtue of external forces. But, in addition to external forces that are determining factors in what happens to us, there are also internal forces that are determining factors. What I’m saying, along with Edwards and Calvin, is that if my choices flow out of my disposition and out of my desires, and if my actions are effects that have causes and reasons behind them, then my personal desire in a very real sense determines my personal choice. If my desires determine my choice, how then can I be free? Remember I said that, in every choice, our choice is both free and determined. But what determines it is me, and this we call self-determination. Self-determination is not the denial of freedom, but the essence of freedom. For the self to be able to determine its own choices is what free will is all about. The simple point I’m trying to make is that not only may we choose according to our own desires but, in fact, we always choose according to our desires. I’ll take it even to the superlative degree and say that we must always choose according to the strongest inclination at the moment. That is the essence of free choice—to be able to choose what you want.” RC Sproulvividbleau
October 1, 2022
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DD “3) The free choice of our own beliefs must be based upon beliefs we already hold” I once was an atheist and now I am a theist the exact opposite of what I believed before, what am I missing? Vividvividbleau
October 1, 2022
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Relatd at 172, "even though scientists are having trouble coming up with a description to link them (Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity together), it’s obvious that both exist and are linked." Indeed, there must be "something" holding them together. it is not only that Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity have this unbridgeable infinite mathematical divide between them, it is also that, theoretically speaking, Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity contradict each other to the point of literally blowing the entire universe apart. As Gregory Chaitin states, “There are serious problems with the traditional view that the world is a space-time continuum. Quantum field theory and general relativity contradict each other. The notion of space-time breaks down at very small distances, because extremely massive quantum fluctuations (virtual particle/antiparticle pairs) should provoke black holes and space-time should be torn apart, which doesn’t actually happen.”
“There are serious problems with the traditional view that the world is a space-time continuum. Quantum field theory and general relativity contradict each other. The notion of space-time breaks down at very small distances, because extremely massive quantum fluctuations (virtual particle/antiparticle pairs) should provoke black holes and space-time should be torn apart, which doesn’t actually happen.” – Gregory J. Chaitin , Francisco A. Doria, and Newton C. a. Da Costa – Goedel’s Way: Exploits into an Undecidable World
Here are a few more references that drive this point home about current theoretical models ripping our universe apart.
“In order for quantum mechanics and relativity theory to be internally self-consistent [Seeking consistency between quantum mechanics and relativity theory is the major task theoretical physicists have been grappling with since quantum mechanics emerged], the physical vacuum has to contain 10^94 grams equivalent of energy per cubic centimeter. What that means is, if you take just a single hydrogen atom, which is one proton and one electron and all the rest of the atom is ‘empty space,’ if you take just that volume of empty space, … you find that you end up with a trillion times as much vacuum energy as all the electromagnetic energy in all the planets, all the stars, and all the cosmic dust in a sphere of radius 15 billion light-years.” To summarize, the subtle energy in the vacuum space of a single hydrogen atom is as great as all the electromagnetic energy found in everything within 15 billion light-years of our space-time cosmos.” ,,, Dr. William Tiller – Human Intention Cosmic coincidence spotted – Philip Ball – 2008 Excerpt: One interpretation of dark energy is that it results from the energy of empty space, called vacuum energy. The laws of quantum physics imply that empty space is not empty at all, but filled with particles popping in and out of existence. This particle ‘fizz’ should push objects apart, just as dark energy seems to require. But the theoretical value of this energy is immense — so huge that it should blow atoms apart, rather than just causing the Universe to accelerate. Physicists think that some unknown force nearly perfectly cancels out the vacuum energy, leaving only the amount seen as dark energy to push things apart. This cancellation is imperfect to an absurdly fine margin: the unknown ‘energy’ differs from the vacuum energy by just one part in 10^122. It seems incredible that any physical mechanism could be so finely poised as to reduce the vacuum energy to within a whisker of zero, but it seems to be so. http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080219/full/news.2008.610.html The 2 most dangerous numbers in the universe are threatening the end of physics – Jessica Orwig – Jan. 14, 2016 Excerpt: Dangerous No. 2: The strength of dark energy ,,, you should be able to sum up all the energy of empty space to get a value representing the strength of dark energy. And although theoretical physicists have done so, there’s one gigantic problem with their answer: “Dark energy should be 10^120 times stronger than the value we observe from astronomy,” Cliff said. “This is a number so mind-boggling huge that it’s impossible to get your head around … this number is bigger than any number in astronomy — it’s a thousand-trillion-trillion-trillion times bigger than the number of atoms in the universe. That’s a pretty bad prediction.” On the bright side, we’re lucky that dark energy is smaller than theorists predict. If it followed our theoretical models, then the repulsive force of dark energy would be so huge that it would literally rip our universe apart. The fundamental forces that bind atoms together would be powerless against it and nothing could ever form — galaxies, stars, planets, and life as we know it would not exist. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/two-most-dangerous-numbers-universe-194557366.html
Of note to the 1 in 10^120 fine-tuning that is required for Dark Energy. At the 6:09 minute mark of the following video, Hugh Ross comments on the ‘disturbing implications’ that "dark energy”, i.e. the 1 in 10^120 cosmological constant’, has given atheistic astrophysicists
Astrophysicist Hugh Ross - Incredible Astronomical Discoveries & Dark Energy - 2018 video https://youtu.be/c9J9r7mdB6Q?t=367
And here is a link to the ‘disturbing implications’ paper from atheistic astrophysicists that Dr. Ross mentioned in the preceding video. (A paper, which tried to deny that we have a 'true cosmological constant', that was withdrawn from consideration because of the mounting evidence for a Cosmological Constant (Dark Energy)). Humorously, the implications of the 1 in 10^120 cosmological constant were ‘disturbing for the atheists since it quote-unquote “would have required a miracle”.
Disturbing Implications of a Cosmological Constant - Dyson, Kleban, Susskind (each are self proclaimed atheists) - 2002 Excerpt: "Arranging the universe as we think it is arranged would have required a miracle.,,," “The question then is whether the origin of the universe can be a naturally occurring fluctuation, or must it be due to an external agent which starts the system out in a specific low entropy state?” page 19: “A unknown agent [external to time and space] intervened [in cosmic history] for reasons of its own.,,,” Page 21 "The only reasonable conclusion is that we don't live in a universe with a true cosmological constant". http://arxiv.org/pdf/hep-th/0208013.pdf
Dr. Hugh Ross also listed several Bible verses that ‘predicted’, (thousands of years before the 1 in 10^120 cosmological constant was even known about), God ’'Stretching out the Heavens’. The following site list several verses that speak of God ‘Stretching out the heavens'
Bible References to God Stretching Out the Heavens http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Nave-html/Faithpathh/stretch.html
Out of that group of verses, the following verse is my favorite, since it, in the Old Testament no less, also makes an allusion to Jesus walking on water.
Job 9:8 He alone stretches out the heavens and treads on the waves of the sea.
So yes indeed Relatd, since quantum mechanics and general relativity theoretically contradict each other to literally ripping our universe apart, then I agree wholeheartedly that there must be "something", or more precisely "Someone", very powerful holding the two theories together.
Colossians 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
bornagain77
October 1, 2022
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Realtd writes, “As an aside, I think the layman is generally not interested in scientific problems like this..” I’m beginning to think your layman’s science background is not very good, perhaps because you are not very interested. For instance, you write, “I tied a thin rope to a rock. I spun it and felt the the pull of gravity at right angles. I threw it into the air and watched it slow briefly before the pull of gravity dropped it to the ground. In those easy to repeat experiments, it became obvious that a gravitational pull could be created by taking a mass and spinning it. The pull is obvious.” As you spin the rock on the rope, it wants to travel in a straight line but the rope forces it to diverge from that path. The force you are feeling is commonly called centrifugal force. It is not a “gravitational pull.” When you release the rock it does fall due to gravity, but that is not related to the fact that you were spinning it. You could just throw the rock up in the air and the same thing would happen. You also write, “The fact of the matter is that any sufficiently large and dense mass will also create a slight gravitational effect. If the mass is very large, like a moon or planet, the gravity felt is greater.” In fact, all mass has a gravitational effect: it does not have to be a “sufficiently large and dense mass.” “Newton's law of universal gravitation is usually stated as that every particle attracts every other particle in the universe with a force that is directly proportional to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between their centers.” [Wikipedia]Viola Lee
October 1, 2022
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You obviously didn't see the physics happen.Viola Lee
October 1, 2022
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VL at 173, "That’s quite a knee-jerk, uninformed response." No, that was a "I lived through it and saw this all actually happen" response. I was there. I heard what they said. And it was contrary to what I was taught and believed about human beings. I was hoping others would get that.relatd
October 1, 2022
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Relatd writes, “I’m working on a book titled How the Hippies Ruined the Country”. That’s quite a knee-jerk, uninformed response. “How the Hippie’s Saved Physics” is a serious book about one of the issues in this thread: whether QM should be content with its fantastic ability to calculate results that agree with experimental results within many orders of precision versus a desire to interpret what QM says about the nature of reality. HtHSP was written by David Kaiser, “David I. Kaiser is an American physicist and historian of science” at MIT, “head of its Science, Technology, and Society program, and a full professor in the department of physics, [Wikipedia] He also has written “Drawing Theories Apart: The Dispersion of Feynman Diagrams in Postwar Physics”, a very interesting book about how the influence of Feynman diagrams spread throughout science. HtHSP tells an important story. Here’s a short summary. When QM first became prominent in the 1920’s, there was lots of discussion among famous physicists about what it meant. As the years went by, little progress was made on interpretations but the power of QM’s predicted results grew, so an approach that de-emphasized the meaning of QM took over (later summarized as “Shut up and calculate). However, in the ’60s a group of physicists in California became interested in similarities between Eastern metaphysics and QM, and revived the idea of exploring the meaning of QM. Some of their ideas went nowhere, such as tying ESP to QM, but others, like their work with Bell’s theorem and quantum entanglement, were essential to further developments in QM. They also revived an interest in the meaning of QM which has continued to this day. So HtHSP is a serious book that gives some credit to the intellectual atmosphere of the ’60s for some important advances in both practical and theoretical QM science. Hope you learned something, relatd.Viola Lee
October 1, 2022
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Ba77, A few thoughts. First, gravity can occur through simple experiment. I tied a thin rope to a rock. I spun it and felt the the pull of gravity at right angles. I threw it into the air and watched it slow briefly before the pull of gravity dropped it to the ground. In those easy to repeat experiments, it became obvious that a gravitational pull could be created by taking a mass and spinning it. The pull is obvious. Some scientists have talked about 'gravity waves' or some particle, like a Graviton, that creates gravity. The fact of the matter is that any sufficiently large and dense mass will also create a slight gravitational effect. If the mass is very large, like a moon or planet, the gravity felt is greater. The case of Quantum Mechanics in isolation is directly related to macro objects. It cannot be otherwise. All macro objects are composed of atoms that are composed of subatomic particles. So just because the Quantum World has different rules in operation than the marco world, and even though scientists are having trouble coming up with a description to link them, it's obvious that both exist and are linked. As an aside, I think the layman is generally not interested in scientific problems like this.relatd
October 1, 2022
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Querius at 162, The following makes no sense: "... rather than in omnidirectional as one might expect." You are ignoring that the image on the Shroud was made by God. The same God who turned water into wine and raised the dead. He has complete control. There is nothing expected here except what was actually observed as the final effect.relatd
October 1, 2022
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Jerry at 157, As someone with an arts background, you cannot paint human figures accurately without a knowledge of how muscles work. And how they appear in action and at rest. The best a layman can do is say "It looks right." An artist has to actually know what he or she is looking at.relatd
October 1, 2022
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Seversky at 154, Tell me when the Atheist Utopia you envision will appear.relatd
October 1, 2022
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Jerry at 148, You've done it! You've demonstrated free will in action! Thank you.relatd
October 1, 2022
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Vl at 145, I'm working on a book titled How the Hippies Ruined the Country - How Radicals, Anarchists and Communists Infiltrated our Neighborhoods in the Late 1960s to Sell their Fake Philosophy, and Dope.relatd
October 1, 2022
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Dogdoc at 142, Pure crap and you know it. "Perhaps we should work towards admitting that nobody really knows the answers to the deepest questions, so we should really be tolerant of whatever each of us comes up with." Or, radical individualism. Just making it up as you go along. That's no way to live. And certainly no way to run a society. So, "I'll just do whatever crosses my mind."? Crap. Sloppy attempt at removing blame since 'nobody - according to you - really knows the answers.' Quit peddling dumb philosophy here.relatd
October 1, 2022
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Q, in so arguing, Skinner instantly discredited himself, of course the elitist implicit exception is for themselves: they are reasonable but hoi polloi is not. Where that leads is obvious and destructive as well as indefensible. KFkairosfocus
October 1, 2022
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DD, perfect example of hyperskeptical dismissiveness towards correction of error, ad hominem form. Did it register with you that for arguments to work at all,
[a] they have to be freely made, hopefully informed by true facts and cogent reasoning . . . as opposed to presumably unconscious mechanical and/or stochastic programming AND [b] the listener or reader must also be significantly free. _______________________ [c1] If a and/or b fail, argument thus reason thus warrant and knowledge instantly fail, i.e. [c2] even the arguments of the proponent of determinism on dynamic-stochastic processes also fail, self discrediting just as immediately. SO INSTEAD =============================== [d] We can only argue on the prior implicit acceptance of responsible, rational freedom, so to argue is to implicitly accept it.
That is why the whole exercise of trying to argue to refute responsible rational freedom must fail instantly through patent self referential incoherence, i.e. strong form absurdity. Whatever else reality is, it has in it creatures who argue and take argument seriously so must rest implicitly on having responsible, rational freedom. Onward, that freedom is morally governed [morality only applying to such freedom], starting with first duties of reason, to truth, to right reason, to warrant and wider prudence, to sound conscience etc. For instance your argument above tried to discredit me as failing such duties. Unsuccessfully. KFkairosfocus
October 1, 2022
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Jerry @161, Psychologist, B.F. Skinner, famously wrote a book in 1971 titled "Beyond Freedom and Dignity." As a result, he became known as the father of behaviorism. Skinner concluded that free will is an illusion and people are meat robots that can simply be programmed. The big advantage of behaviorism is that no one can be held morally responsible for anything they do. It's all due to programming. As a result, intelligent, powerful people get to "decide" what programming is the most beneficial to society, humanity, the world, and then feel totally justified in controlling the programming of "the chattering masses." After all, leaders of society are simply meat robots as well and also cannot be held responsible. The fact that they're in charge is inevitable due to their superiority and control. Whatever they do also cannot be challenged on any grounds. And this collapses down to "might makes right." May God protect us from such monsters. -QQuerius
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