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From IAI News: How infinity threatens cosmology

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Peter Cameron, Emeritus Professor Mathematics at Queen Mary, University of London, writes:

There are many approaches to infinity through the twin pillars of science and religion, but I will just restrict my attention here to the views of mathematicians and physicists.

22 09 23.infinity2.ata
IAI News

Aristotle was one of the most influential Greek philosophers. He believed that we could consider “potential infinity” (we can count objects without knowing how many more are coming) but that a “completed infinity” is taboo. For mathematicians, infinity was off-limits for two millennia after Aristotle’s ban. Galileo tried to tackle the problem, noting that an infinite set could be matched up with a part of itself, but in the end drew back. It was left to Cantor in the nineteenth century to show us the way to think about infinity, which is accepted by most mathematicians now. There are infinitely many counting numbers; any number you write down is a negligible step along the way to infinity. So Cantor’s idea was to imagine we have a package containing all these numbers; put a label on it saying “The natural numbers”, and treat the package as a single entity. If you want to study individual numbers, you can break open the package and take them out to look at them.  Now you can take any collection of these packages, and bundle them up to form another single entity. Thus, set theory is born. Cantor investigated ways of measuring these sets, and today set theory is the commonest foundation for mathematics, though other foundations have been proposed. 

One of Cantor’s discoveries is that there is no largest infinite set: given any set you can always find a larger one. The smallest infinite set is the set of natural numbers. What comes next is a puzzle which can’t be resolved at present. It may be the real (decimal) numbers, or maybe not. Our current foundations are not strong enough, and building larger telescopes will not help with this question. Perhaps in the future we will adopt new foundations for mathematics which will resolve the question.

These questions keep set theorists awake at night; but most mathematicians work near the bottom of this dizzying hierarchy, with small infinities. For example, Euclid proved that the prime numbers “go on for ever”. (Aristotle would say, “Whatever prime you find, I can find a larger one.”

While Kronecker (a fierce opponent of Cantor’s ideas) thought in the nineteenth century that “God created the natural numbers; the rest is the work of man”, we can now build the natural numbers using the tools of set theory, starting from nothing (more precisely the empty set).

Mathematicians know, however, that there is a huge gap between the finite and the infinite. If you toss a coin 100 times, it is not impossible (just very unlikely) that it will come down tails each time. But, if you could imagine tossing a coin infinitely often, then the chance of not getting heads and tails equally often is zero. Of course, you could never actually perform this experiment; but mathematics is a conceptual science, and we are happy to accept this statement on the basis of a rigorous proof.

Infinity in physics and cosmology has not been resolved so satisfactorily. The two great twentieth-century theories of physics, general relativity (the theory of the very large) and quantum mechanics (the theory of the very small) have resisted attempts to unite them. The one thing most physicists can agree on is that the universe came into being a finite time ago (about 13.7 billion years) — large, but not infinite. 

The James Webb Space Telescope has just begun showing us unprecedented details in the universe. As well as nearby objects, it sees the furthest objects ever observed. Because light travels at a finite speed, these are also the oldest objects observed, having been formed close to the beginning of the Universe. The finite speed of light also puts limits on what we can see; if an object is so far away that its light could not reach us if it travelled for the whole age of the universe, then we are unaware of its existence. So Malunkyaputta’s question about whether the universe is finite or infinite is moot. But is it eternal or not? That is a real question, and is so far undecided.

Attempts to reconcile relativity and quantum theory have been made. The ones currently most promising adopt a very radical attitude to infinity. They deny that the infinitely small can exist in the universe, but prescribe a minimum possible scale, essentially the so-called Planck scale.

Such a solution would put an end to Zeno’s paradox. Zeno denied the possibility of motion, since to move from A to B you first have to move to a point C halfway to B, and before that to a point D halfway from A to C, and so on to infinity. If space is not infinitely divisible, then this infinite regress cannot occur. (This solution was already grasped by Democritus and the early Greek atomists.)

Of course, this leaves us with a conceptual problem similar to the one raised by the possibility that the university is finite. In that case, the obvious question is “If the universe has an edge, what is beyond it?” In the case of the Planck length, the question would be “Given any length, however small, why can’t I just take half of it?”

Perhaps because we have been conditioned by Zeno’s paradox, we tend to think of the points on a line to be, like the real numbers, infinitely divisible: between any two we can find another. But current thinking is that the universe is not built this way.

More important to physics, the atomist hypothesis also gets rid of another annoying occurrence of infinity in physics. Black holes in general relativity are points of spacetime where the density of matter becomes infinite and the laws of physics break down. These have been a thorn in the flesh of cosmologists since their existence was first predicted, since by definition we cannot understand what happens there. If space is discrete, we cannot put infinitely many things infinitely close together, and the paradox is avoided. We can still have extremely high density; the black hole recently observed and photographed at the centre of our own galaxy is (on this theory) just a point of such high density that light cannot escape, but does not defy our ability to understand it.

Time, however, remains a problem; current theories cannot decide the ultimate fate of the universe. Does it end with heat death, a cold dark universe where nothing happens? Does the mysterious “dark energy” become so strong that it rips the universe to shreds? Or does the expansion from the Big Bang go into reverse, so that the universe ends in a Big Crunch?

None of this matters to us individually. The sun will expand and swallow the earth long before the universe reaches its end.

Full article at IAI News.

Although this article glosses over some concepts in physics and cosmology, it raises interesting points to ponder.

Comments
BA, So not only is hypocrisy dripping from my words, but they are doing so literally! Get the handi wipes! And now you've called me an atheist and I've already told you I am not an atheist. Oh my G*d! You are such a hypocrite for misconstruing my beliefs while condemning me for doing the same! The shame, the horror, the literally dripping hypocrisy! I am not an atheist, and I am not dogmatic - you should have picked up on that when I explained that I am 100% certain I do not know the answers to life's deepest questions (the origin of the universe, life, etc). All I'm saying is that you don't know the answers either, nor do physicists and mathematicians, no matter how famous they are. I do understand why you're not going to give up on your attempts to show otherwise, though - what are you going to do with all of those terabytes of copypasta?dogdoc
September 26, 2022
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Dogdoc says that I am the one who 'misconstrue quotes' all the while he is the one who misconstrued my post to claim that I conceded something about Einstein's use of the word 'miracle' which I never conceded. And for which I gave a very good reason why I did not concede it. The hypocrisy is literally dripping off of every word that Dogdoc wrote. In short, Dogdoc is as dogmatic and unreasonable as atheists come.bornagain77
September 26, 2022
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Relatd:
“theological non-cognitivist”? Oh sure. People us that term in conversation all the time.
That might be the purest instantiation of "argument from ignorance" I've come across - nice job! As for Bill Craig's take on theological non-cognitivism (TNC), he is as usual hopelessly confused. TNC does not entail positivism, nor verificationism, nor any other particular theory of meaning. Craig is correct, however, when he writes: "This belies the fashionable claim among the uninformed that atheism is simply the absence of God belief and therefore makes no claim and requires no justification. That naïve view fails to distinguish between the different forms that the absence of belief in God may take: one might be an atheist, an agnostic, or a non-cognitivist. So we need to ask our non-believing interlocutor exactly which form of non-theism he espouses. Then we can inquire what reasons he has for his particular view." Bravo Dr. Craig! And of course sauce for goose is sauce for the gander: When someone says they "believe in God" there is any number of things they may be referring to. To wit, what Spinoza (and Einstein) meant by the word "God" is utterly different from what others mean! Spinoza's god was essentially "the totality of nature", so by that definition I of course believe in God. My position is simply that until somebody makes some meaningful claim about what they are referring to as "God", it makes no sense to decide whether it exists or not.dogdoc
September 26, 2022
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BA: "I stopped reading after the first sentence" Alright then! Another productive internet debate - I expected nothing else. You will continue to misconstrue quotes and argue from the authority of physical scientists in the realm of metaphysics and theology, and spend the rest of your life scouring the internet for descriptions of scientific progress that can be made to align with your predetermined beliefs in Christian dogma. Have fun with that!dogdoc
September 26, 2022
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JVL accuses me of not being honest. Which is extremely ironic coming from a dogmatic atheist who refuses to be honest to the empirical evidence. But anyways, I clearly conceded that Einstein did not believe in a personal God, and yet, at the same time, I also clearly pointed out that Einstein contradicted himself in wanting to know God's thoughts. How God can possibly have 'thoughts' without being a 'person' in some way, shape, form or fashion, I have no idea. This clearly is a contradiction in logic on Einstein's part! In the same way, I hold that Einstein's use of the word 'miracle', in his noting the applicability of mathematics to the universe, while at the same time denigrating 'professional atheists', suffers the same fate of logically contradicting Einstein's non-belief in a personal God.
On the Rational Order of the World: a Letter to Maurice Solovine – Albert Einstein – March 30, 1952 Excerpt: “You find it strange that I consider the comprehensibility of the world (to the extent that we are authorized to speak of such a comprehensibility) as a miracle or as an eternal mystery. Well, a priori, one should expect a chaotic world, which cannot be grasped by the mind in any way .. the kind of order created by Newton’s theory of gravitation, for example, is wholly different. Even if a man proposes the axioms of the theory, the success of such a project presupposes a high degree of ordering of the objective world, and this could not be expected a priori. That is the ‘miracle’ which is constantly reinforced as our knowledge expands. There lies the weakness of positivists and professional atheists who are elated because they feel that they have not only successfully rid the world of gods but “bared the miracles.” -Albert Einstein http://inters.org/Einstein-Letter-Solovine
Again, the last time I checked, miracles are considered the sole province of God,
mir·a·cle a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency.
For Einstein to use the word 'miracle', while at the same time denigrating 'professional atheists', simply makes no sense unless it is referring to divine agency. i.e. a 'personal' God of some sort, whether it be Deistic or Theistic. A 'personal' God who 'miraculously' wills the laws of the universe to be as they are. In short, Einstein, like when he stated that he wanted to know God's thoughts, is directly contradicting his non-belief in a personal God when he used the word 'miracle' in such a fashion. And again, this debate about Einstein's religious beliefs is all besides the point anyways To repeat, in posts 13 and 14 I appealed to special relativity itself, i.e. Einstein’s own baby, not to any quotes on religion that Einstein may have uttered, in order to refute Einstein’s non-belief in a personal God. And the last time I checked, in science empirical evidence has the final say.
“If it disagrees with experiment, it’s wrong. In that simple statement is the key to science. It doesn’t make any difference how beautiful your guess is, it doesn’t matter how smart you are who made the guess, or what his name is … If it disagrees with experiment, it’s wrong. That’s all there is to it.” – Richard Feynman 1 Thessalonians 5:21 but test all things. Hold fast to what is good.
bornagain77
September 26, 2022
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Bornagain77: I stopped reading after the first sentence, “You’ve backed away from your claims of Einstein’s belief in god-given miracles, ” This I believe. I think you stop reading many things that contradict what you say. But that shouldn't stop an honourable person from at least admitting the material does contradict their statements. But you can't do those simple, honest things.JVL
September 26, 2022
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JVL @24,
Querius: No, they would simply continue with something like, “Well, Newton didn’t even know about relativity and besides, he had smelly feet.” JVL: Not sure what you’re getting at here. My view on Newton’s genius in mathematics and science shall, as always, remain firm. I acknowledge that he was a deeply religious person as he made clear.
What I’m getting at is that many detractors here simply want to argue their position without regard for the arguments they employ. If it turns out that their understanding is wrong, they find a new criticism (smelly feet) or simply drop that argument as if it were a used sandwich wrapper. They’re simply protecting their orthodoxy or their ideology. Science is expected to constantly change in its understanding. And that’s why I don’t tie my Christianity to Science or vice versa! As far my faith is concerned, I’d label myself an “originalist,” embracing the teachings of the historical figure of Yeshua of Nazareth rather than the cultural and philosophical encrustations of what I consider “Churchianity” or “theology.” I believe Isaac Newton did likewise, as much as he was able in the oppressive “woke” environment of the orthodox religious power structure of his day. Some brilliant scientists and mathematicians of history were devout believers (Blaise Pascal had a significant impact on my life as did physicist Lambert Dolphin, and synthetic chemist James Tour). Conversely, there are many brilliant scientists, mathematicians, and philosophers who were/are atheists, agnostics, or perhaps theists or deists, Einstein among them.
Those topics [Planck lengths, infinities, the measurement problem as related to reality] are all of interest to me.
I’m glad to hear that. Truly. I’ve also noticed the twisting and squirming of many theoretical physicists in trying to maintain their deterministic materialism in the face of mounting evidence against it. As you well know, even Einstein famously wrote in December 1926, “The theory [i.e. Quantum Mechanics] produces a good deal but hardly brings us closer to the secret of the Old One. I am at all events convinced that He does not play dice.” I would suggest that the evidence in QM seems to indicate the “Old One” loves to play dice! And why the hell not? [smile] -QQuerius
September 26, 2022
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"theological non-cognitivist"? Oh sure. People us that term in conversation all the time. Some details: https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writings/question-answer/theological-non-cognitivismrelatd
September 26, 2022
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I stopped reading after the first sentence, "You’ve backed away from your claims of Einstein’s belief in god-given miracles, " No I did not. Please read more carefully where I specifically quoted Einstein wanting to know God's thoughts. Like I said, I quit reading Dogdoc's response after that blatant distortion of my views. So whatever Dogdoc, I laid my scientific case out to refute Einstein's, (and your), non-belief in a personal God at posts 13 and 14.. Unbiased readers can read it at their leisure and decide for themselves who has presented the better case. You, because of your dogmatic atheism, obviously refuse to accept any and all scientific evidence that refutes your atheistic worldview. So I certainly don't consider you to be a neutral arbiter of the scientific evidence. If you were fair to the evidence, you certainly would not be a Darwinian atheist. As Euler himself pointed out a few centuries ago, "If these people (atheists) maintained the slightest rigor, the slightest taste for the truth, it would be quite easy to steer them away from their errors; but their tendency towards stubbornness makes this completely impossible."
A Defense of the (Divine) revelation against the objections of freethinkers (atheists), by Mr. (Leonhard) Euler Excerpt: "The freethinkers (atheists) have yet to produce any objections that have not long been refuted most thoroughly. But since they are not motivated by the love of truth, and since they have an entirely different point of view, we should not be surprised that the best refutations count for nothing and that the weakest and most ridiculous reasoning, which has so often been shown to be baseless, is continuously repeated. If these people maintained the slightest rigor, the slightest taste for the truth, it would be quite easy to steer them away from their errors; but their tendency towards stubbornness makes this completely impossible." http://www.math.dartmouth.edu/~euler/docs/translations/E092trans.pdf (Leonhard) Euler is held to be one of the greatest mathematicians in history and the greatest of the 18th century. A statement attributed to Pierre-Simon Laplace expresses Euler's influence on mathematics: "Read Euler, read Euler, he is the master of us all."[4][5] Carl Friedrich Gauss remarked: "The study of Euler's works will remain the best school for the different fields of mathematics, and nothing else can replace it."[6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonhard_Euler The Most Beautiful Equation of Math: Euler’s Identity http://www.science4all.org/article/eulers-identity/ God by the Numbers - Connecting the constants Excerpt: The final number comes from theoretical mathematics. It is Euler's (pronounced "Oiler's") number: e^pi*i. This number is equal to -1, so when the formula is written e^pi*i+1 = 0, it connects the five most important constants in mathematics (e, pi, i, 0, and 1) along with three of the most important mathematical operations (addition, multiplication, and exponentiation). These five constants symbolize the four major branches of classical mathematics: arithmetic, represented by 1 and 0; algebra, by i; geometry, by pi; and analysis, by e, the base of the natural log. e^pi*i+1 = 0 has been called "the most famous of all formulas," because, as one textbook says, "It appeals equally to the mystic, the scientist, the philosopher, and the mathematician.",,, The discovery of this number gave mathematicians the same sense of delight and wonder that would come from the discovery that three broken pieces of pottery, each made in different countries, could be fitted together to make a perfect sphere. It seemed to argue that there was a plan where no plan should be.,,, Today, numbers from astronomy, biology, and theoretical mathematics point to a rational mind behind the universe.,,, The apostle John prepared the way for this conclusion when he used the word for logic, reason, and rationality—logos—to describe Christ at the beginning of his Gospel: "In the beginning was the logos, and the logos was with God, and the logos was God." When we think logically, which is the goal of mathematics, we are led to think of God. http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2006/march/26.44.html?start=3
bornagain77
September 26, 2022
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BA77, You've backed away from your claims of Einstein's belief in god-given miracles, which represents some progress. So now I see we are in agreement: Einstein thought theistic religion was primitive, childish superstition, and that there is no such thing as a god with intellect and will, but it's still not a good thing to go around pointing that out to religious people. I'm good with that! I love when people of different beliefs can reach common ground. You go on to denigrate the religious philosophy of Spinoza, calling it "fuzzy" and suggesting it needs "ironing out". If you think Einstein's religious views are so confused, why would you start out by pretending that his views supported your own? Now, the fact is that it's absolutely true that Einstein - like many physicists! - was no genius in philosophy, and he was terrible at articulating his beliefs in that area. All the more reason you should give up your gambit of using quotes from physicists to support your religious ideas of course. But you just can't stop yourself, and you continue to misinterpret Einstein's and Spinoza's use of the word "God". How much more do you need to understand that for Spinoza and Einstein, that word does not refer to the same thing you mean? Not a conscious being. Not something with beliefs and desires. Not something that is concerned with the activity of human beings. Just as you point out apparent contradictions in Einstein's language about "God", you continue to contradict yourself - on one hand admitting Einstein didn't believe in any sort of god recognizable to theists, and on the other hand trying to show Einstein's belief in "miracles" implied a deity, that his distaste for atheists suggested he accepted theism, and so on. Then you pretend that I am "trying to enlist Einstein to support his atheism". WRONG AGAIN. First, I'm not technically an "atheist" (I identify as a theological non-cognitivist). Second, if I was interested in defending my views I would refer to philosophers, certainly not physicists. Finally, you continue with your bizarre project of co-opting real science to promote your Christianity, and claim that Special Relativity proves the afterlife - which in turn proves the existence of a personal god. This is all so far beyond what the empirically-grounded physics says it is just preposterous for you to present it as science. Whatever else they may be, human beings are physical organisms, and the physical organism that is you is going to cease to exist. Speculating about how information may - or may not - persist in the universe doesn't tell you if you (your memories, your personality, your desires, your values, etc etc) are going to persist once your brain no longer exists. Yet you insist on pretending that all of physics confirms your own particular religious beliefs. I am 100% certain that I do not know the answers to the Big Questions of existence. I am also 100% certain that nobody else does either. Science doesn't rule out the existence of a conscious creator of our universe, but it most certainly doesn't confirm it. Just be happy in your own beliefs and stop acting like science proves you are right!dogdoc
September 26, 2022
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"Who is a liar, saith John, but he that denyeth that Jesus is the Christ? He is Antichrist that denyeth the Father & the Son. And we are authorized also to call him God: for the name of God is in him. Exod. 23.21. And we must believe also that by his incarnation of the Virgin he came in the flesh not in appearance only but really & truly, being in all things made like unto his brethren (Heb. 2 17) for which reason he is called also the son of man." - Isaac Newton - 140 sourced quotes https://libquotes.com/isaac-newton/quotes/god - via Drafts on the history of the Church (Section 3). Yahuda Ms. 15.3, National Library of Israel, Jerusalem, Israel. 2006 Online Version at Newton Project https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton
bornagain77
September 26, 2022
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You do understand the distinction that Meyer made to Newton's rejection of "Greek philosophical concepts like ‘substance’ in order to clarify Newton's belief in the divinity of Christ do you not?
“Now there is a debate among scholars about,, Newton. He was a devout Christian of some kind. The question is. Was he an orthodox Christian who believed in the divinity of Christ and the trinity? Or was he more of an Arian, heterodox, Christian who believed in a transcendent God, but as some of our friends in Jehovah’s Witnesses believe, (also) believed that Jesus was created to be an agent of God in the world, and was the exemplar to man, but not fully defined?,, That’s the more common view of Newton’s theological position, but I’ve come to doubt it in recent years. I’ve been made aware of some scholarship by a historian of,, science named Thomas Pfizenmaier. In a seminal article called, “Was Isaac Newton an Arian?”. And what seems to be the best view of Newton’s view is that he doubted the Athenation formulation of the trinity, with its reliance on Greek philosophical concepts like ‘substance’, but was trinitarian. And therefore did believe in the divinity of Christ. I first got skeptical about this, (interpretation that Newton was non-trinitarian), when I saw that passage in the General Scholium, (of Newton’s “Principia’), which is a close paraphrase to the passage in Colossians. Which says, “In Christ all things are held together.”. (As well), He (Newton) wrote a lot on Messianic prophecy.” – Stephen Meyer – The Judeo-Christian Origins of Modern Science – 52:47 minute mark – video https://youtu.be/ss-kzyXeqdQ?t=3167 Was Isaac Newton an Arian? (non-trinitarian?) Thomas Pfizenmaier https://www.jstor.org/stable/3653988
bornagain77
September 26, 2022
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Bornagain77: ’ve read that letter the last time you referenced it and, as I said when I read it, nothing in that letter contradicts what Stephen Meyer said in the video that I referenced, Are you sure? Perhaps we should consider what Newton actually wrote:
Since the discourses of some late writers have raised in you a curiosity, of knowing the truth of that text of Scripture concerning the testimony of the three in heaven 1 Iohn 5.7: I have here sent you an account of what the reading has been in all ages, & by {what} steps it has been changed, so far as I can hitherto determine by records. And I have done it the more freely because to you who understand the many abuses which they of the Roman Church have put upon the world, it will scarce be ungratefull to be convinced of one more than is commonly believed. For althô the more learned & {clear} sighted men (as Luther, Erasmus, Bullinger Grotius & some others) could not dissemble their knowledge, yet the generality are fond of the place for its making against heresy. But whilst we exclaim against the pious frauds of the Roman Church, & make it a part of our religion to detect & renounce all things of that kind: we must acknowledge it a greater crime in us to favour such practises, then in the Papists we so much blame on that account. For they act according to their religion but we contrary to ours. In the eastern nations, & for a long time in the western the faith subsisted without this text & it is rather a danger to religion then an advantage to make it now lean upon a bruised reed. There cannot be better service done to the truth then to purge it of things spurious: & therefore knowing your prudence & calmnesse of temper, I am confident I shal not offend you by telling you my mind plainly: especially since 'tis no article of faith, no point of discipline, nothing but a criticism concerning a text of scripture which I am going to write about. The history of the corruption in short is this. First some of the Latines interpreted the spirit water & blood of the Father, Son & Holy ghost to prove them one. Then Ierome for the same end inserted the Trinity in expres words into his Version. Out of him the Africans {began to allege} it against the Vandals about 64 years after his death. Afterwards the Latines noted his variations in the margins of their books & thence it began at length to creep into the text in transcribing, & that chiefly in the twelft & following Centuries when revived by the Schoolmen. And when printing came it crept out of the Latine into the printed Greek against the authority of all the greek MSS & ancient Versions, & from the Venetian presses it went soon after into Grece. Now the truth of this history will appear by considering the arguments on both sides. The arguments alleged for the testimony of the three in heaven are the authorities of Cyprian, Athanasius & Ierome, & of many greek manuscripts & almost all the Latine ones. Cyprians words run thus. The Lord saith, I and the Father am one, & again of the Father & Son & Holy Ghost it is written. And these three are one. The Socinians here deale too injuriously with Cyprian while they would have this place corrupted: for Cyprian in another place repeats almost the same thing If, saith he, [one baptized amongst hereticks] be made the temple of God, tell me I pray of what God? . . . . If of the Holy ghost, since these three are one, how can the Holy ghost be reconciled to him who is the enemy of either the Father or the Son. These places of Cyprian being in my opinion genuine seem so apposite to prove the testimony of the three in heaven, that I should never have suspected a mistake in it could I but have reconciled it with the ignorance I meet with of this reading in the next age amongst the Latines of both Afric & Europe as well as amongst the Greeks. For had it been in Cyprian's Bible, the Latines of the next age when all the world was engaged in disputing about the Trinity & all arguments that could be thought of were diligently sought out & daily brought upon the stage, could never have been ignorant of a text, which in our age now the dispute is over is chiefly insisted upon. In reconciling this difficulty I consider therefore that the only words of the text quoted by Cyprian in both places are, And these three are one: which words may belong to the eighth verse as well as to the seventh. ffor Eucherius Bishop of Lion in France & contemporary to S. Austin, reading the text without the seventh verse tells us that many then understood the Spirit, the Water & the Blood to signify the Trinity. And S. Austin is one of those many as you may see in his third book against Maximus, where he tells us that the Spirit is the Father, for God is a spirit, the water the Holy Ghost, for he is the water which Christ gives to them that thirst, & the blood the Son for the Word was made flesh. Now if it was the opinion of many in the western Churches of those times that the spirit, the water & the blood signified the Father, the Son, & the Holy Ghost, its plain that the testimony of the three in heaven in expresse words was not yet crept into their books, {&} even without this testimony it was obvious for Cyprian or any man else of that opinion to say of the Father & Son & Holy Ghost: it is written And these three are one. And that this was Cyprian's meaning, Facundus, an African Bishop in the sixt Century is my author. For he tells us expresly that Cyprian in the above mentioned place understood it so, interpreting the water, spirit & blood to be the Father, Son & Holy Ghost & thence affirming that Iohn said of the Father, Son & Holy Ghost, These three are one. This at least may be gathered from this passage of Facundus, that some in those early ages interpreted Cyprian after this manner. Nor do I understand how any of those many who took the spirit water & blood for a type of the Trinity, or any man else who was ignorant of the testimony of the three in heaven (as the Churches in the times of the Arian controversy generally were) could understand him otherwise. And even Cyprian's own words do plainly make for this interpretation. For he does not say, the Father, the Word & the Holy Ghost as 'tis now in the seventh verse, but the Father & Son & Holy Ghost as 'tis in Baptism, the place from whence they used at first to derive the Trinity. If it be pretended that the words cited by Cyprian are taken out of the seventh verse rather then out of the eighth because he reads not Hi tres in unum sunt but hi tres unum sunt I answer that the Latines generally read hi tres unum sunt as well in the eighth verse as in the seventh as you may see in the newly cited places of S. Austin & Facundus, & those of Ambrose, Pope Leo, Beda & Cassiodorus which follow, & in the present Vulgar Latine. So then the testimony of Cyprian respects the eighth, or at least is as applicable to that verse as to the seventh, & therefore is of no force for proving the truth of the seventh: but on the contrary for disproving it we have here the testimonies of Facundus, S. Austin, Eucherius & those many others whom Eucherius mentions. {For} if those of that age had met with it in their books they would never have understood the spirit the water & the blood to be the three persons of the Trinity in order to prove them one God.
There's more. And, if I have to pick between Dr Meyer and Newton as far as what Newton actually said and believed . . . who should I pick?JVL
September 26, 2022
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Dogdoc offers a a fairly heated post on Einstein rejecting belief in a personal God, Yet, in my response to him I did not even deny that Einstein rejected belief in a personal God. (In fact, I conceded that point and moved on to the science of special relativity in order to prove my point), I merely said to Dogdoc that “According to biographer Walter Isaacson, Einstein was more inclined to denigrate atheists than religious people.” To go even further that that, Einstein compared atheists to slaves and even said that, "Although he did not believe in a personal God, he indicated that he would never seek to combat such belief because "such a belief seems to me preferable to the lack of any transcendental outlook."
According to biographer Walter Isaacson, Einstein was more inclined to denigrate atheists than religious people.[28] Einstein said in correspondence, "[T]he fanatical atheists...are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who—in their grudge against the traditional 'opium of the people'—cannot hear the music of the spheres."[28][29] Although he did not believe in a personal God, he indicated that he would never seek to combat such belief because "such a belief seems to me preferable to the lack of any transcendental outlook."[30] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_and_philosophical_views_of_Albert_Einstein#Agnosticism_and_atheism
Thus I merely pointed out the obvious fact that Dogdoc is a blatant hypocrite for accusing me of 'cherry picking' quotes to support my Christian worldview since he is the one who is, in fact, at the present moment, 'cherry picking' quotes that denigrate Christians and ignoring the many quotes where Einstein explicitly lambasts atheists. (not to mention ignoring the science I presented). For instance, Einstein was 'really angry' at atheists for quoting him to support their atheism.
“In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views.” - Einstein - "Einstein, the Life and Times, Ronald W. Clark, 1971, p425. http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Nave-html/Faithpathh/Einstein.html
Apparently Dogdoc does not care if Einstein got 'really angry' at atheists for quoting him to support their atheistic worldview Looking at Einstein's religious views more soberly though, since Einstein rejected belief in a personal God, and yet also 'angrily' rejected belief in atheism, then, since he expressed belief in the fuzzy 'abstract god' of Spinoza, then I hold it would be fair to say that Einstein did not exactly have his all beliefs in God all ironed out. For instance of the contradictory nature of Einstein's religious beliefs,, and directly contrary to Dogdoc's claim that "Einstein utterly and clearly rejected the idea that there exists a God possessing an intellect and a will", (directly contrary to that claim from Dogdoc), Einstein clearly stated that "I want to know how God created this world .. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details."
"I want to know how God created this world .. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details." - Einstein - Quoted in Timothy Ferris, Coming of Age in the Milky Way, (New York, Morrow, 1988), 177. http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Nave-html/Faithpathh/Einstein.html
I certainly don't know how God can possibly have 'thoughts' if he does not also possess an 'intellect and a will'. Perhaps Dogdoc can work that little detail out for us? But be that as it may, Dogdoc turns out to be guilty of exactly what Dawkins was guilty of in trying to enlist Einstein to support his atheism. Namely refusing to engage Einstein's religious beliefs in their 'strongest form'.
Reviewing Richard Dawkins’ ‘The God Delusion’ – Anthony Flew – Flew amplifies on this charge, and Dawkins’ avoidance of a particular statement by Einstein: The fault of Dawkins as an academic … was his scandalous and apparently deliberate refusal to present the doctrine which he appears to think he has refuted in its strongest form. Thus we find in his index five references to Einstein. They are to the mask of Einstein and Einstein on morality; on a personal God; on the purpose of life (the human situation and on how man is here for the sake of other men and above all for those on whose well-being our own happiness depends); and finally on Einstein’s religious views. But (I find it hard to write with restraint about this obscurantist refusal on the part of Dawkins) he makes no mention of Einstein’s most relevant report: namely, that the integrated complexity of the world of physics has led him to believe that there must be a Divine Intelligence behind it. (I myself think it obvious that if this argument is applicable to the world of physics then it must be hugely more powerful if it is applied to the immeasurably more complicated world of biology.) He continues: Of course many physicists with the highest of reputations do not agree with Einstein in this matter. But an academic attacking some ideological position which s/he believes to be mistaken must of course attack that position in its strongest form. This Dawkins does not do in the case of Einstein and his failure is the crucial index of his insincerity of academic purpose and therefore warrants me in charging him with having become, what he has probably believed to be an impossibility, a secularist bigot. http://shrineinthesea.blogspot.com/2017/12/reviewing-richard-dawkins-god-delusion.html
Moreover, Dogdoc's continued hammering away at Einstein's lack of belief in a personal God is interesting since, in post 13, I fully conceded to Dogdoc that Einstein did not believe in a personal God and specifically stated that, "although Einstein did not believe in a personal God, nor in life after death, Special Relativity itself, (as well as Quantum Mechanics), directly contradicts Einstein and offers rather stunning confirmation for life after death, and therefore, by virtue of that fact, offers rather stunning confirmation for a personal God." In short, I appealed to special relativity itself, i.e. Einstein's own baby, not to any quotes on religion that Einstein may have uttered, in order to refute Einstein's non-belief in a personal God. And the last time I checked, in science empirical evidence has the final say.
"If it disagrees with experiment, it’s wrong. In that simple statement is the key to science. It doesn’t make any difference how beautiful your guess is, it doesn’t matter how smart you are who made the guess, or what his name is … If it disagrees with experiment, it’s wrong. That’s all there is to it." - Richard Feynman 1 Thessalonians 5:21 but test all things. Hold fast to what is good.
bornagain77
September 26, 2022
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BA77, I pointed out the well-known issue of people trying to quote Einstein out of context and pretend that he believed in God. Einstein himself often complained about this - for example, when he said:
"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." Albert Einstein, letter to an atheist (1954), quoted in "Albert Einstein: The Human Side," edited by Helen Dukas & Banesh Hoffman.
I'd say that was pretty clear. You then use the tired tactic of attempting to reverse the charges, pretending that it is I who was cherry-picking Einstein's quotes. I provided a dozen quotes that unambiguously capture Einstein's conviction that religions and notions of a personal god are false, even "childish" and "primitive". How do you respond? With a reference to Einstein's distaste for militant atheism! But obviously this has nothing to do with Einstein's own disbelief. I myself share Einstein's beliefs about religion and gods, and in most situations I too dislike it when people attack religion! I take it on here because I strongly oppose people attempting to co-opt science to claim their own religion is the one true faith. Likewise Einstein was completely against religious dogma and personal deities, but only when pressed on the matter did he feel the need to dispel the lies that religious people were telling about him. There are no - not a single one! - quotes from Einstein suggesting he ever wavered on his rejection of religion and personal deities. You pretend that when Einstein said the effectiveness of mathematics was a "miracle" he meant that some supernatural person consciously decided to make it so, and to bolster your false take you quote the dictionary to determine what Einstein meant! Like Spinoza, Einstein utterly and clearly rejected the idea that there exists a god possessing an intellect and a will. It's just this sort of thing over and over and over again with you. You pretend that science has proven your particular collapse theory, which even proponents of collapse theories do not claim. You pretend that science has proven the existence of libertarian free will, and mind/body dualism, which is just ridiculous. You cherry-pick everything to try and find science that supports - or at least doesn't blatantly contradict - your religious beliefs. Are your religious beliefs that tenuous, really? You need to endlessly scan the internet, copying off any result or quote that you can twist into something that looks like evidence for your anthropomorphic god? You think it helps your case when you find some ambiguous quote from a famous scientist that you can spin, but simply ignore all of the famous scientists (including Einstein) who completely reject your beliefs. It's a silly game, BA.dogdoc
September 26, 2022
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JVL, not sci fi, but pointing out that we are not cosmos creators. KFkairosfocus
September 26, 2022
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Ba77 at 25, That was wonderful. Those who think they live in "modern" times regard things thought even a short time ago as somehow no longer valid or worth considering; i.e. prior to the last 20 years. That unknown and unnamed "someones" have given them a brand new world to live in and all things have changed. It would be appropriate to call these people liars. The authors of confusion and not so-called progress. When I worked in hospital, I was with a patient who looked about 50. I then looked at a form which showed his age to be 100. I asked him, "Pardon me, sir. But how would you compare things now to the way they were when you were in your 20s?" He replied, "Everything's about the same. It all just happens faster." This was about 1981.relatd
September 26, 2022
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JVL, "Well, I’m basing my understanding of his view on the Trinity from a letter he wrote laying out his reasoning. Have you read the letter?" I've read that letter the last time you referenced it and, as I said when I read it, nothing in that letter contradicts what Stephen Meyer said in the video that I referenced,
“Now there is a debate among scholars about,, Newton. He was a devout Christian of some kind. The question is. Was he an orthodox Christian who believed in the divinity of Christ and the trinity? Or was he more of an Arian, heterodox, Christian who believed in a transcendent God, but as some of our friends in Jehovah’s Witnesses believe, (also) believed that Jesus was created to be an agent of God in the world, and was the exemplar to man, but not fully defined?,, That’s the more common view of Newton’s theological position, but I’ve come to doubt it in recent years. I’ve been made aware of some scholarship by a historian of,, science named Thomas Pfizenmaier. In a seminal article called, “Was Isaac Newton an Arian?”. And what seems to be the best view of Newton’s view is that he doubted the Athenation formulation of the trinity, with its reliance on Greek philosophical concepts like ‘substance’, but was trinitarian. And therefore did believe in the divinity of Christ. I first got skeptical about this, (interpretation that Newton was non-trinitarian), when I saw that passage in the General Scholium, (of Newton’s “Principia’), which is a close paraphrase to the passage in Colossians. Which says, “In Christ all things are held together.”. (As well), He (Newton) wrote a lot on Messianic prophecy.” – Stephen Meyer – The Judeo-Christian Origins of Modern Science – 52:47 minute mark – video https://youtu.be/ss-kzyXeqdQ?t=3167 Was Isaac Newton an Arian? (non-trinitarian?) Thomas Pfizenmaier https://www.jstor.org/stable/3653988
Moreover JVL, have you, an atheist, read Newton's "A short Schem of the true Religion"? A short Schem of the true Religion, the entire thing JVL, reads like it is coming from a Baptist preacher for crying out loud, and even offers support for Meyer's view that "the best view of Newton’s view is that he doubted the Athenation formulation of the trinity, with its reliance on Greek philosophical concepts like ‘substance’, but was trinitarian. And therefore did believe in the divinity of Christ" JVL, here is Newton's 'A short Schem" for you to read. Please pay attention to Newton's devastating comments about atheism, particularly his comment about atheism being "senseless & odious to mankind", and also please note his reference to the "day when God shall judge the secrets of Men by Jesus Christ."
A short Schem of the true Religion{.} - Newton Religion is partly fundamental & immutable partly circumstantial & mutable. The first was the Religion of Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham Moses Christ & all the saints & consists of two parts our duty towards God & our duty towards man or piety & righteousness, piety which I will here call Godliness & Humanity. Of Godliness. Godliness consists in the knowledge love & worship of God, Humanity in love, righteousness & good offices towards man. Thou shall love the Lord thy God with all thy heart & with all thy Soul & with all thy mind: this is the first & great commandment & the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thy self. On these two commandments hang all the law & the Prophets. Mat. 22. The first is enjoyned in the four first commandments of the Decalogue & the second in the six last. Of Atheism Opposite to the first is Atheism in profession & Idolatry in practise. Atheism is so senseless & odious to mankind that it never had many professors. Can it be by accident that all birds beasts & men have their right side & left side alike shaped (except in their bowells) & just two eyes & no more on either side the face & just two ears on either side the head & a nose with two holes & no more between the eyes & one mouth under the nose & either two fore leggs or two wings or two arms on the sholders & two leggs on the hipps one on either side & no more? Whence arises this uniformity in all their outward shapes but from the counsel & contrivance of an Author? Whence is it that the eyes of all sorts of living creatures are transparent to the very bottom & the only transparent members in the body, having on the outside an hard transparent skin, & within transparent juyces with a crystalline Lens in the middle & a pupil before the Lens all of them so truly shaped & fitted for vision, that no Artist can mend them? Did blind chance know that there was light & what was its refraction & fit the eys of all creatures after the most curious manner to make use of it? These & such like considerations always have & ever will prevail with man kind to beleive that there is a being who made all things & has all things in his power & who is therfore to be feared. Of Idolatry. Idolatry is a more dangerous crime because it is apt by the authority of Kings & under very specious pretenses to insinuate it self into mankind. Kings being apt to enjoyn the honour of their dead ancestors: & it seeming very plausible to honour the souls of Heroes & Saints & to beleive that they can heare us & help us & are mediators between God & man & reside & act principally in the temples & statues dedicated to their honour & memory? And yet this being against the principal part of religion is in scripture condemned & detested above all other crimes. The sin consists first in omitting the service of the true God. For the more time & devotion one spends in the worship of false Gods the less he is able to spend in that of the true one: secondly in serving fals or feigned Gods, that is Ghosts or spirits of dead men or such like beings which you make your Gods by feigning that they can hear your prayers & do you good or hurt & praying to them for protection & blessings & trust in them for the same, & which are false Gods because they have not the powers which you ascribe to them & on which you trust. Whether you call them Dij or Divi Gods or Saints or by any other name is not material. If you ascribe such powers to them & put such trust in them as the heathens ascribed to & put in their Gods you make them such Gods as the Heathens worshipped & as are forbiden in the first commandment. Saint Paul tells the Heathens that the Gods which they worshipped were not Gods. he does not mean that they were not infinite eternal omnipotent & omniscient beings (for the heathens did not take them to be such) but he means that they were not what the Heathens called Gods, they were not such Gods as the heathens took them to bee. that is intelligent spirits able to heare & see their worshippers & do them good or hurt. To place such powers in the souls of dead men is that doctrine of Devils or Demons condemned by the Apostle. An Idol is nothing in the world, a vanity, a lye a fictitious power, The Egyptians & other heathens who propagated Idolatry beleived the transmigration of souls & accordingly taught that the souls of men after death went into several subjects as into the Ox Apis & other sacred animals of Egypt, into the Sun Moon & Stars, into Images consecrated to them &c & on this opinion grounded their worship of those subjects. supposing that the starrs by these Intelligences were moved in their Orbs & understood & governed humane affairs & that statues by these spirits could hear & help us & sometimes move themselves & give oracles. And these are the Devils or Dæmons which Idolators worshipped Levit 7.7. Deut 32.17 2 Chron 11.15. Psal. 106.37. 1 Cor. 10.20. Rev. 9.20. & whose worship the Prophets upbraid with folly by representing that the Idols can neither hear nor se nor walk. that is that they are not animated by such souls as those by which men hear & see & walk, but are mere inanimate stocks & stones voyd of all life & power. [So covetous men by putting that trust in riches which they should put in God become a sort of Idolaters. And much more plainly is it idolatrous to trust in charmes ceremonies, dead bodies, consecrated substances & the like. All this is worshipping the creature instead of the creator.] And thirdly the sin of Idolatry consists in making & worshipping the images of dead men or of other things in heaven above or in the earth beneath or in the waters below the earth that is of birds beasts or fishes (contrary to the second commandment) upon a supposition that by virtue of the souls of dead men or of the supreme God or any other Spirits or Demons good or bad inhabiting them or upon any other account they can hear & see their worshippers or do them good or hurt. To ascribe such powers to them is to feign them Gods (such Gods as the heathens worshipped) & to love or feare or trust in them or express such love feare or trust by prayers praises thanksgivings sacrifices adorations or any other outward action or service is the idolatry of the old heathens forbidden in the second commandment. Stocks & Stones have no such powers, they are not inhabited by the souls of dead men,, eyes have they & see not ears have they & hear not. An Idol are is nothing in the world, They are vanities, lies, fictitious powers, & on this account they are called false Gods & derided as such by all the old Prophets. And of the same kind of folly is it to place any trust in the bodies or bones of dead men or in things consecrated or other things without life or in any ceremonies or charmes: for even the trusting in riches is by the Apostle called Idolatry. We are therefore to acknowledge one God infinite eternal omnipresent, omniscient omnipotent , the creator of all things most wise, most just, most good most holy;, & to have no other Gods but him. We must love him feare him honour him trust in him pray to him give him thanks praise him hallow his name obey his commandments & set times apart for his service as we are directed in the third & fourth commandments. For this is the love of God that we keep his commandments & his commandments are not grievous 1 Iohn. 5.3 These things we must do not to any mediators between him & us but to him alone, that he may give his Angels charge over us who being our fellow servants are pleased with the worship which we give to their God.. And this is the first & principal part of religion, This always was & always will be the religion of all Gods people, from the beginning to the end of the world. Of Humanity The other part of the true religion is our duty to man. We must love our neighbour as our selves, we must be charitable to all men for charity is the greatest of graces, greater then even faith or hope & covers a multitude of sins. We must be righteous & do to all men as we would they should do to us. In Politicks Salus populi suprema lex, In private concerns Quod tibi fieri? non vis alteri ne feceris were laws acknowledged by Heathens & are or ought to be the laws of all man-kind. This was the ethics morality or good manners taught the the first ages by Noah & his sons in some of their seven precepts the later heathens heathens by Socrates Cicero Confutius & other Philosophers, the Israelites by Moses & the Prophets & the Christians more fully by Christ & his Apostles. This is that law which the Apostle tells you was written in the hearts of the Gentiles & by which they are to be judged in the last day Rom. 2.12, 14, 15. "For the invisible things of God from the creation of the world are clearly seen being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power & godhead, so that they [the nations or gentiles] are without excuse, because when they knew God they glorified him not as God neither were thankfull, but becam vain in their imaginations & their foolish heart was darkened professing themselves to be wise they became fools & changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man & to birds & four footed beasts & creeping things. Wherefore also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts to dishonour their own bodies between themselves --- & to a reprobate mind to do those things which are not convenient, being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication wickedness covetousness maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity, whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenant breakers without natural affection implacable unmercifull; who knowing the judgment of God (that they who commit such things are worthy of death) not only do the same but have pleasure in them that do them --- And thinkest thou this O [christian] man that judgest them who do such things & doest the same that thou shalt escape the judgment of God --- who will render to every man according to his deeds -- For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without the law [of Moses] shall also perish without the law & as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law in the day when God shall judge the secrets of Men by Iesus Christ. For not the hearers of the law are just before God but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles which have not the law do by [the light of] nature the things contained in the law these having not the law [of Moses] are [by the light of nature] a law unto themselves, which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, & their thoughts the mean while accusing or excusing one another." Rom. 1 & 2. Thus you see there is but one law for all nations the law of righteousness & charity dictated to the Christians by Christ to the Iews by Moses & to all mankind by the light of reason & by this law all men are to be judged at the last day. This was the religion of the first ages till they forsook the right worship of the true God & turned aside to the worship of dead men & Idols, & then God gave them over to their lusts & passions for working all manner of unrighteousness. But Moses made a reformation among the Israelites not from the ancient religion propogated by Noah & his posterity to the nations but from the idolatry & immorality with which the Nations had corrupted themselves. ffor as many of the heathens as were converted from their corruptions to worshipp only the true God & follow the law of righteousness were admitted by the Iews into their Gates & outward court of the Temple as Proselites tho they did not receive the law of Moses. The Iews rejected not the Religion of Noah & the first nations but proselited the heathens to it as to the true ancient religion tho a religion which they accounted not so perfect as that of Moses. And in like manner we may lawfully proselite heathens to it (that is to piety & righteousness) & ought to value & love those who profess & practise it even though they do not yet believe in Christ. ffor it is the true religion of Christians as well as heathens tho not all the true Christian religion. Tis so great & necessary a part of the Christian religion that the righteousness of the saints is the white cloathing of the Lambs wife Apoc. 19.8. & the righteous go into eternal life Matt. 25 46. () & as Christ is righteous so everyone that doth righteousness is born of God. 1 Iohn. 2.29. Abel was righteous (Heb. 11.4 Mat. 23.35 1 Iohn. 3.12) & Noah was a preacher of righteousness (2 Pet. 2.5) & by his righteousness he was saved from the flood (Gen 7.1.). . Christ is called the righteous (1 Iohn 2.1 ) & by his righteousness we are saved (Rom. 3.25. & 5.18 1 Cor. 1.30) & except our righteousness exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees we shall not enter into the kingdome of heaven. (Mat. 5.20.) Righteousness is the religion of the kingdom of heaven (2 Pet. 3. 13 Isa 60 21) & even the property of God himself [Iud. 5.11. 1 Sam 12.7. Ezra 9.15 Nehem 9.8. Psal. 119.137.] towards man. Righteousness & Love are inseparable for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not covet, & if there be any other commandment, it is breifly comprehended in this saying namely Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thy self. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour therefore love is the fulfilling of the Law. Rom. 13.8, 9, 10. He that loveth his brother abideth in the light & there is no occasion of stumbling. 1 Iohn 2.10 He that loveth not his brother abideth in death Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer & ye know that no murderer hath eternal life. 1 Iohn 3.14. 15 Beloved let us love one another for love is of God & every one that loveth is born of God & knoweth God & he that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. In this was manifested the love of God towards us because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world that we might live through him. Beloved if God so loved us we ought to love one another. No man hath seen God at any time, if we love one another God dwelleth in us. --- If a man say I love God & hateth his brother he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen how can he love God whom he hath not seen? And this commandment have we that he who loveth God love his brother also. 1 Iohn 4. Covet earnestly the best gifts [of the Spirit:] & yet I shew unto you a more excellent way [vizt that ye love one another. ffor] Though I speak with the tongues of men & angels & have not charity | love I am become as sounding brass or a tinkling Cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophesy & understand all mysteries & all knowledge & though I have all faith so that I could remove mountains & have no charity | love I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor & tho I give my body to be burned & have not charity | love it profiteth me nothing. https://www.newtonproject.ox.ac.uk/view/texts/normalized/THEM00007
bornagain77
September 26, 2022
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Querius: For example, if I were able to demonstrate that Newton’s position on the trinity doctrine (which isn’t even mentioned in the Bible) was misunderstood, do you think any of the detractors here would even skip a beat? Would they ever write, “Gosh, I guess you were right after all?” Well, I'm basing my understanding of his view on the Trinity from a letter he wrote laying out his reasoning. Have you read the letter? No, they would simply continue with something like, “Well, Newton didn’t even know about relativity and besides, he had smelly feet.” Not sure what you're getting at here. My view on Newton's genius in mathematics and science shall, as always, remain firm. I acknowledge that he was a deeply religious person as he made clear. His view on the Trinity would probably not seem very controversial now but the scholars I've read commenting on that have indicated that it would have been considered heretical at the time but that's not for me to judge. They simply enjoy yelling “squirrel” at a dog show and have absolutely ZERO interest in any research or issues regarding Planck lengths, infinities, or the measurement problem as related to reality. Those topics are all of interest to me.JVL
September 26, 2022
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Bornagain77 @16,
Oh goody, another atheistic troll tries to bash Christianity because it is debated whether Newton was an orthodox Christian or a heterodox Christian.
Yes, exactly. As if that should make any difference at all regarding Isaac Newton's faith or their pointless arguments. For example, if I were able to demonstrate that Newton's position on the trinity doctrine (which isn't even mentioned in the Bible) was misunderstood, do you think any of the detractors here would even skip a beat? Would they ever write, "Gosh, I guess you were right after all?" LOL No, they would simply continue with something like, "Well, Newton didn't even know about relativity and besides, he had smelly feet." They simply enjoy yelling "squirrel" at a dog show and have absolutely ZERO interest in any research or issues regarding Planck lengths, infinities, or the measurement problem as related to reality. -QQuerius
September 26, 2022
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Notice that Dogdoc still doesn't acknowledge the difference between a waveform and the wavefunction and the reason behind the "Wigner's Friend" thought experiment. Wavefunction collapse has been demonstrated experimentally. Bu here's a video that can get him started on this fascinating subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvzSLByrw4Q Until then, it's a waste of time to try to reason with him since he doesn't obviously understand the subject. -QQuerius
September 26, 2022
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“It is terrible to die of thirst in the ocean." Do tell ChuckyD,
“Overpoweringly strong proofs of intelligent and benevolent design lie all around us; and if ever perplexities, whether metaphysical or scientific, turn us away from them for a time, they come back upon us with irresistible force, showing to us through Nature the influence of a free will, and teaching us that all living things depend on one ever-acting Creator and Ruler.” (Kelvin 1871; see also Seeger 1985a, 100-101) Sir William Thomson, who was later ennobled as Lord Kelvin, His contributions to science included a major role in the development of the second law of thermodynamics; the absolute temperature scale (measured in kelvins); the dynamical theory of heat; the mathematical analysis of electricity and magnetism, “When with bold telescopes I survey the old and newly discovered stars and planets, when with excellent microscopes I discern the unimitable subtility of nature’s curious workmanship; and when, in a word, by the help of anatomical knives, and the light of chemical furnaces, I study the book of nature, I find myself often times reduced to exclaim with the Psalmist, ‘How manifold are Thy works, O Lord! In wisdom hast Thou made them all!’ ” (Boyle, as cited in Woodall 1997, 32) Robert Boyle is largely regarded today as the first modern chemist, "Science brings men nearer to God.,, Posterity will one day laugh at the foolishness of modern materialistic philosophers. The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator. I pray while I am engaged at my work in the laboratory.,," (Pasteur, as cited in Lamont 1995; see also Tiner 1990, 75) Louis Pasteur one of the most important founders of medical microbiology. Pasteur’s contributions to science, technology, and medicine are nearly without precedent “Earth's crammed with heaven, And every common bush afire with God, But only he who sees takes off his shoes; The rest sit round and pluck blackberries.” - Elizabeth Barrett Browning
Verse:
Romans 1 18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
bornagain77
September 26, 2022
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BA77/16 "It is terrible to die of thirst in the ocean. Do you have to salt your truth so heavily that it does not even-quench thirst any more?" --Friedrich Nietzsche, BGE #81chuckdarwin
September 26, 2022
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Cherry-picking scientific results and quotes trying to provide a scientific imprimatur for religious beliefs is a tiresome and futile game.
Agreed! Science points to a creator of immense power and intellect. It does not point to a specific religion. Though certain religions are consistent with the science. Logic and other evidence are needed to get to a specific religion. The evidence is there and logic is impossible to escape. But you are right, that part is not science. However, science is a strong partner. So certain theologies and science do not contradict. That should be the conclusion.jerry
September 26, 2022
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Bornagain77: another atheistic troll tries to bash Christianity because it is debated whether Newton was an orthodox Christian or a heterodox Christian It is quite accepted by many scholars that Newton was a self-proclaimed doubter of the Holy Trinity. Dr Meyer disagrees but that doesn't make him right. As I've said before regarding this issue: I'll take Newton at his own words. I gave you a link to a copy of the letter he wrote laying out his view clearly and simply. You can refuse to read the letter and deny what he wrote. But he did write that letter and, knowing it would cause him problems if it were made public, chose not to reveal his views openly. AND, it's not a 'bash' against Christianity to note that one particular famous person held what would have been considered heretical views (at the time). The chip on your shoulder seems to get bigger every day.JVL
September 26, 2022
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Kairosfocus: just add a tunnelling dimension, easy peasy . . . if you can create a cosmos. Uh huh. Like I said: pure science fiction.JVL
September 26, 2022
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Oh goody, another atheistic troll tries to bash Christianity because it is debated whether Newton was an orthodox Christian or a heterodox Christian
"Now there is a debate among scholars about,, Newton. He was a devout Christian of some kind. The question is. Was he an orthodox Christian who believed in the divinity of Christ and the trinity? Or was he more of an Arian, heterodox, Christian who believed in a transcendent God, but as some of our friends in Jehovah's Witnesses believe, (also) believed that Jesus was created to be an agent of God in the world, and was the exemplar to man, but not fully defined?,, That's the more common view of Newton's theological position, but I've come to doubt it in recent years. I've been made aware of some scholarship by a historian of,, science named Thomas Pfizenmaier. In a seminal article called, "Was Isaac Newton an Arian?". And what seems to be the best view of Newton's view is that he doubted the Athenation formulation of the trinity, with its reliance on Greek philosophical concepts like 'substance', but was trinitarian. And therefore did believe in the divinity of Christ. I first got skeptical about this, (interpretation that Newton was non-trinitarian), when I saw that passage in the General Scholium, (of Newton's "Principia'), which is a close paraphrase to the passage in Colossians. Which says, "In Christ all things are held together.". (As well), He (Newton) wrote a lot on Messianic prophecy." - Stephen Meyer - The Judeo-Christian Origins of Modern Science - 52:47 minute mark - video https://youtu.be/ss-kzyXeqdQ?t=3167 Was Isaac Newton an Arian? (non-trinitarian?) Thomas Pfizenmaier https://www.jstor.org/stable/3653988
Does it even cross the minds of these atheistic trolls, (no matter exactly what type of Christian that Newton actually was), that Newton's deep belief in God, all by itself, completely undermines their atheistic worldview? Or is that complete undermining of their atheistic worldview just an 'inconvenient fact' that they completely ignore because they are blinded in their zeal to bash Christianity by any which way they can imagine to do so?
“This most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being. And if the fixed stars are the centres of other like systems, these, being formed by the like wise counsel, must be all subject to the dominion of One; especially since the light of the fixed stars is of the same nature with the light of the sun, and from every system light passes into all the other systems: and lest the systems of the fixed stars should, by their gravity, fall on each other mutually, he hath placed those systems at immense distances one from another. This Being governs all things, not as the soul of the world, but as Lord over all; and on account of his dominion he is wont to be called Lord God pantokrator, or Universal Ruler;,,, The Supreme God is a Being eternal, infinite, absolutely perfect;,,, from his true dominion it follows that the true God is a living, intelligent, and powerful Being; and, from his other perfections, that he is supreme, or most perfect. He is eternal and infinite, omnipotent and omniscient; that is, his duration reaches from eternity to eternity; his presence from infinity to infinity; he governs all things, and knows all things that are or can be done. He is not eternity or infinity, but eternal and infinite; he is not duration or space, but he endures and is present. He endures for ever, and is every where present”: - Sir Isaac Newton - Principia; 1687, GENERAL SCHOLIUM.
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John 14:1-2 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe in Me as well. In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?…
bornagain77
September 26, 2022
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DogDoc/8
Cherry-picking scientific results and quotes trying to provide a scientific imprimatur for religious beliefs is a tiresome and futile game.
Well put. One should also mention that Newton was anti-trinitarian but did not publish his views during his lifetime for fear of prosecution under the Blasphemy Act of 1697.........chuckdarwin
September 26, 2022
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Moreover, the finding that time, as we understand it, comes to a complete stop at the speed of light is very friendly to Theistic presuppositions about ‘eternity’ and/or ‘eternal life’. As Dr. Richard Swenson noted in his book “More Than Meets The Eye”, “The laws of relativity have changed timeless existence from a theological claim to a physical reality. Light, you see, is outside of time, a fact of nature proven in thousands of experiments at hundreds of universities. I don’t pretend to know how tomorrow can exist simultaneously with today and yesterday. But at the speed of light they actually and rigorously do. Time does not pass.”
“The laws of relativity have changed timeless existence from a theological claim to a physical reality. Light, you see, is outside of time, a fact of nature proven in thousands of experiments at hundreds of universities. I don’t pretend to know how tomorrow can exist simultaneously with today and yesterday. But at the speed of light they actually and rigorously do. Time does not pass.” – Richard Swenson – More Than Meets The Eye, Chpt. 11
Even Einstein himself indirectly alluded to the Theological significance of the 'eternity' of special relativity when he, upon the death of his close friend Michele Besso, stated, “For those of us who believe in physics, the distinction between past, present and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion.”
Einstein and Michele Besso Upon Besso’s death in 1955, Einstein wrote a letter of condolence to the Besso family—less than a month before his own death—which contained the following quote “Now he has departed from this strange world a little ahead of me. That signifies nothing. For those of us who believe in physics, the distinction between past, present and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion.” http://quotingeinstein.blogspot.com/2013/06/einstein-and-michele-besso.html
That time, as we understand it, comes to a complete stop at the speed of light, and yet light moves from point A to point B in our universe, and thus light is obviously not ‘frozen within time’, has some fairly profound implications. The only way it is possible for time not to pass for light, and yet for light to move from point A to point B in our universe, is if light is of a ‘higher dimensional’ value of time than the temporal time we are currently living in. Otherwise light would simply be ‘frozen within time’ from our temporal frame of reference. In the first part of the following video clip, entitled ‘Optical Effects of Special Relativity”, a video which was made by two Australian University Physics Professors, we find that the 3-Dimensional world ‘folds and collapses’ into a tunnel shape as a ‘hypothetical’ observer approaches the ‘higher dimension’ of the 'four-dimensional continuum' of the speed of light.
Optical Effects of Special Relativity – video (full relativistic effects shown at 2:40 minute mark) https://youtu.be/JQnHTKZBTI4?t=160
Also please note, as was visualized at the 3:00 minute mark of the preceding video, that all of the light was concentrated into the direction of travel of the observer. This concentration of light in the direction of travel is termed the ‘headlight effect’
Relativistic aberration Relativistic aberration is the relativistic version of aberration of light, including relativistic corrections that become significant for observers who move with velocities close to the speed of light. It is described by Einstein’s special theory of relativity.,,, One consequence of this is that a forward observer should normally be expected to intercept a greater proportion of the object’s light than a rearward one; this concentration of light in the object’s forward direction is referred to as the “searchlight effect” (or headlight effect). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativistic_aberration
Now that we have outlined the basics of what we know to be physically true from special relativity, It is very interesting to note that many of the characteristics found in 'heavenly' Near Death Experience testimonies are exactly what we would expect to see from what we now know to be physically true about Special Relativity. But first and foremost, before we get into that comparison, it is important to note that, (although atheists dismiss Near Death testimonies out of hand as not being worthy of consideration), the evidence for the validity of Near Death Experiences turns out to be far more robust and trustworthy than the evidence for Darwinian evolution is. As Dr. Michael Egnor noted, "The most "parsimonious" explanation -- the simplest scientific explanation -- is that the (Near Death) experience was real. Tens of millions of people have had such experiences. That is tens of millions of more times than we have observed the origin of species , (or the origin of life, or the origin of a protein/gene, or of a molecular machine), which is never.,,,"
Near-Death Experiences: Putting a Darwinist's Evidentiary Standards to the Test - Dr. Michael Egnor - October 15, 2012 Excerpt: Indeed, about 20 percent of NDE's are corroborated, which means that there are independent ways of checking about the veracity of the experience. The patients knew of things that they could not have known except by extraordinary perception -- such as describing details of surgery that they watched while their heart was stopped, etc. Additionally, many NDE's have a vividness and a sense of intense reality that one does not generally encounter in dreams or hallucinations.,,, The most "parsimonious" explanation -- the simplest scientific explanation -- is that the (Near Death) experience was real. Tens of millions of people have had such experiences. That is tens of millions of more times than we have observed the origin of species , (or the origin of life, or the origin of a protein/gene, or of a molecular machine), which is never.,,, The materialist reaction, in short, is unscientific and close-minded. NDE's show fellows like Coyne at their sneering unscientific irrational worst. Somebody finds a crushed fragment of a fossil and it's earth-shaking evidence. Tens of million of people have life-changing spiritual experiences and it's all a big yawn. Note: Dr. Egnor is professor and vice-chairman of neurosurgery at the State University of New York at Stony Brook. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/10/near_death_expe_1065301.html
In short, we have far more 'observational' evidence that NDEs are real, and therefore for the reality of souls, than we do for the Darwinian claim that unguided material processes can generate immaterial functional information. Now as to how NDEs and special relativity correspond. Many times people who have had a deep Near Death Experience mention that their perception of time was radically altered. In the following video clip, Mickey Robinson gives his Near Death testimony of what it felt like for him to experience a ‘timeless eternity’.
‘In the ‘spirit world,,, instantly, there was no sense of time. See, everything on earth is related to time. You got up this morning, you are going to go to bed tonight. Something is new, it will get old. Something is born, it’s going to die. Everything on the physical plane is relative to time, but everything in the spiritual plane is relative to eternity. Instantly I was in total consciousness and awareness of eternity, and you and I as we live in this earth cannot even comprehend it, because everything that we have here is filled within the veil of the temporal life. In the spirit life that is more real than anything else and it is awesome. Eternity as a concept is awesome. There is no such thing as time. I knew that whatever happened was going to go on and on.’ In The Presence Of Almighty God – The NDE of Mickey Robinson – video (testimony starts at 27:45 minute mark) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voak1RM-pXo
And here are a few more quotes from people who have had deep Near Death Experiences, that speak of how their perception of time was radically altered, i.e. how they experienced 'eternity', as they were outside of their material, temporal, body during their NDEs.
‘Earthly time has no meaning in the spirit realm. There is no concept of before or after. Everything – past, present, future – exists simultaneously.’ – Kimberly Clark Sharp – Near Death Experiencer ‘There is no way to tell whether minutes, hours or years go by. Existence is the only reality and it is inseparable from the eternal now.’ – John Star – NDE Experiencer
As well, people who have had deep Near Death Experiences also frequently mention going through a tunnel, towards an extremely brilliant light, to a higher heavenly dimension:
Ask the Experts: What Is a Near-Death Experience (NDE)? – article with video Excerpt: “Very often as they’re moving through the tunnel, there’s a very bright mystical light … not like a light we’re used to in our earthly lives. People call this mystical light, brilliant like a million times a million suns…” – Jeffrey Long M.D. – has studied NDE’s extensively The Tunnel and the Near-Death Experience Excerpt: One of the nine elements that generally occur during NDEs is the tunnel experience. This involves being drawn into darkness through a tunnel, at an extremely high speed, until reaching a realm of radiant golden-white light. https://near-death.com/tunnel/
In the following video, Barbara Springer gives her testimony as to what it felt like for her to go through the tunnel towards ‘the light’:
"I started to move toward the light. The way I moved, the physics, was completely different than it is here on Earth. It was something I had never felt before and never felt since. It was a whole different sensation of motion. I obviously wasn't walking or skipping or crawling. I was not floating. I was flowing. I was flowing toward the light. I was accelerating and I knew I was accelerating, but then again, I didn't really feel the acceleration. I just knew I was accelerating toward the light. Again, the physics was different - the physics of motion of time, space, travel. It was completely different in that tunnel, than it is here on Earth. I came out into the light and when I came out into the light, I realized that I was in heaven." - Barbara Springer - (7:40 minute mark) Near-Death Experience Documentary: “Shadows: Perceptions of Near-Death Experiencers” https://youtu.be/HR0x57aMv-k?t=460
And in the following audio clip, Vicki Noratuk, who has been blind from birth, (besides being able to ‘miraculously” see for the very first time in her life during her Near Death Experience), Vicki also gives testimony of going through a tunnel at a ‘horrifically’ rapid rate of speed:
“I was in a body, and the only way that I can describe it was a body of energy, or of light. And this body had a form. It had a head, it had arms and it had legs. And it was like it was made out of light. And it was everything that was me. All of my memories, my consciousness, everything.”,,, “And then this vehicle formed itself around me. Vehicle is the only thing, or tube, or something, but it was a mode of transportation that’s for sure! And it formed around me. And there was no one in it with me. I was in it alone. But I knew there were other people ahead of me and behind me. What they were doing I don’t know, but there were people ahead of me and people behind me, but I was alone in my particular conveyance. And I could see out of it. And it went at a tremendously, horrifically, rapid rate of speed. But it wasn’t unpleasant. It was beautiful in fact.,, I was reclining in this thing, I wasn’t sitting straight up, but I wasn’t lying down either. I was sitting back. And it was just so fast. I can’t even begin to tell you where it went or whatever it was just fast!” – Vicki’s NDE – Blind since birth – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e65KhcCS5-Y
And in the following quotes, the two Near Death Experiencers both testify that they firmly believe that they were in a higher heavenly dimension that is above this three-dimensional world, and that the reason that they have a very difficult time describing what their Near Death Experiences actually felt like is because we simply don’t currently have the words to properly describe that higher dimension:
“Regardless, it is impossible for me to adequately describe what I saw and felt. When I try to recount my experiences now, the description feels very pale. I feel as though I’m trying to describe a three-dimensional experience while living in a two-dimensional world. The appropriate words, descriptions and concepts don’t even exist in our current language. I have subsequently read the accounts of other people’s near-death experiences and their portrayals of heaven and I able to see the same limitations in their descriptions and vocabulary that I see in my own.” - Mary C. Neal, MD – "To Heaven And Back" pg. 71 “Well, when I was taking geometry, they always told me there were only three dimensions, and I always just accepted that. But they were wrong. There are more… And that is why so hard for me to tell you this. I have to describe with words that are three-dimensional. That’s as close as I can get to it, but it’s really not adequate.” - John Burke – "Imagine Heaven" pg. 51 – quoting a Near Death Experiencer
That what we now know to be physically true from special relativity, (namely that it outlines a ‘timeless’, i.e. eternal, 'dimension of light' that exists above this temporal dimension), would fit hand and glove with the personal testimonies of people who have had a deep heavenly NDEs is, needless to say, powerful evidence that their testimonies are, in fact, true and that they are accurately describing the ‘reality’ of a higher heavenly dimension, that they experienced first hand, that physically exists above this temporal dimension. I would even go so far as to say that such corroboration from ‘non-physicists’, who, in all likelihood, know nothing about the details of special relativity, substantially adds to the overall validity of their personal NDE testimonies and thus substantially adds to the Christian's claim for a heavenly 'eternal' paradise that exists above this temporal realm.
Matthew 6:33 But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you. James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
Thus in conclusion Einstein himself may not have personally believed in life after death, (nor in a personal God), but Special Relativity itself directly contradicts Einstein and offers stunning confirmation that Near Death Testimonies are accurate ‘physical’ descriptions of what happens after death, of going to a ‘higher timeless/eternal dimension’, i.e. 'heavenly dimension of light', that exists above this temporal realm. In post 8 and 10 Dogdoc also made some other flimsy claims to try to support his atheistic worldview. But I am more than satisfied to leave my response to him as it sits for now. Besides me having other things to do today, having special relativity support my Christian worldview, and not support his atheistic worldview, is rather satisfying as far as empirical science itself is concerned.bornagain77
September 26, 2022
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Dogdoc at 8 states,
BornAgain77, Einstein’s views on religion are subtle but not really complicated. Still they are constantly misrepresented. His views (like those of Spinoza) regarding a personal god could not be more clear.
Then Docdoc links to a site that lists several quotes from Einstein that make it clear that he did not believe in a personal God. Then at the end of post 8 Dogdoc states, "Cherry-picking scientific results and quotes trying to provide a scientific imprimatur for religious beliefs is a tiresome and futile game." It is interesting that Dogdoc would accuse me of cherry picking quotes to support my Christian worldview since cherry picking quotes to support his atheistic worldview is exactly what Dogdoc did when he linked to that site. The fact of the matter is “According to biographer Walter Isaacson, Einstein was more inclined to denigrate atheists than religious people.”
Religious and philosophical views of Albert Einstein Excerpt: According to biographer Walter Isaacson, Einstein was more inclined to denigrate atheists than religious people.[28] Einstein said in correspondence, “[T]he fanatical atheists…are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who—in their grudge against the traditional ‘opium of the people’—cannot hear the music of the spheres.”[28][29] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_and_philosophical_views_of_Albert_Einstein#Agnosticism_and_atheism
Hypocrisy, thy name is Dogdoc! Moreover, although Dogdoc rightly observed that Einstein believed in Spinoza’s ‘abstract god’, who was ‘less than a person’,
The God of the Mathematicians – Goldman – 2010 The religious beliefs that guided Kurt Gödel’s revolutionary ideas Excerpt: As Gödel told Hao Wang, “Einstein’s religion [was] more abstract, like Spinoza and Indian philosophy. Spinoza’s god is less than a person; mine is more than a person; because God can play the role of a person.” http://www.firstthings.com/article/2010/07/the-god-of-the-mathematicians
And although Einstein also said that he “did not believe in life after death,,,, “one life is enough for me.””
Religious and philosophical views of Albert Einstein Excerpt: Albert Einstein’s religious views have been widely studied and often misunderstood.[1] Albert Einstein stated that he believed in the pantheistic God of Baruch Spinoza.[2] He did not believe in a personal God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings, a view which he described as naïve.[3] He clarified however that, “I am not an atheist”,[4] preferring to call himself an agnostic,[5] or a “religious nonbeliever.”[3] Einstein also stated he did not believe in life after death, adding “one life is enough for me.”[6],,, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_and_philosophical_views_of_Albert_Einstein
,,, and although Einstein did not believe in a personal God, nor in life after death, Special Relativity itself, (as well as Quantum Mechanics), directly contradicts Einstein and offers rather stunning confirmation for life after death, and therefore, by virtue of that fact, offers rather stunning confirmation for a personal God. Specifically, the mathematics of special relativity is based on a single four-dimensional continuum now known as Minkowski space. In fact, the higher dimensional nature of special relativity was a mathematical discovery that was made by one of Einstein math professors in 1908 prior to Einstein’s elucidation of General Relativity in 1915. (In fact, in 1916 Einstein fully acknowledged his indebtedness to Minkowski)
Spacetime Excerpt: In 1908, Hermann Minkowski—once one of the math professors of a young Einstein in Zurich—presented a geometric interpretation of special relativity that fused time and the three spatial dimensions of space into a single four-dimensional continuum now known as Minkowski space. A key feature of this interpretation is the definition of a spacetime interval that combines distance and time. Although measurements of distance and time between events differ for measurements made in different reference frames, the spacetime interval is independent of the inertial frame of reference in which they are recorded. Minkowski’s geometric interpretation of relativity was to prove vital to Einstein’s development of his 1915 general theory of relativity, wherein he showed that spacetime becomes curved in the presence of mass or energy.,,, Einstein, for his part, was initially dismissive of Minkowski’s geometric interpretation of special relativity, regarding it as überflüssige Gelehrsamkeit (superfluous learnedness). However, in order to complete his search for general relativity that started in 1907, the geometric interpretation of relativity proved to be vital, and in 1916, Einstein fully acknowledged his indebtedness to Minkowski, whose interpretation greatly facilitated the transition to general relativity.[10]:151–152 Since there are other types of spacetime, such as the curved spacetime of general relativity, the spacetime of special relativity is today known as Minkowski spacetime. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime
Moreover, these four dimensional spacetimes that undergird both special relativity and general relativity are also comforting to overall Christian concerns in that they reveal two very different 'eternities' to us. One 'eternity' is found for a hypothetical observer who is going the speed of light, and another 'eternity' is found for a hypothetical observer falling to the event horizon of a black hole.
Time dilation Excerpt: Time dilation: special vs. general theories of relativity: In Albert Einstein’s theories of relativity, time dilation in these two circumstances can be summarized: 1. –In special relativity (or, hypothetically far from all gravitational mass), clocks that are moving with respect to an inertial system of observation are measured to be running slower. (i.e. For any observer accelerating, hypothetically, to the speed of light, time, as we understand it, will come to a complete stop.) 2.–In general relativity, clocks at lower potentials in a gravitational field—such as in closer proximity to a planet—are found to be running slower. (i.e. For any observer falling to the event horizon of a black-hole, time, as we understand it, will come to a complete stop.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation
Specifically, in Einstein’s special relativity we find that time passes differently for different ‘observers’ depending on how fast the observers are moving through space, “with time slowing to a stop as one, (an observer), approaches the speed of light .”
Time dilation caused by a relative velocity Excerpt: Special relativity indicates that, for an observer in an inertial frame of reference, a clock that is moving relative to them will be measured to tick slower than a clock that is at rest in their frame of reference. This case is sometimes called special relativistic time dilation. The faster the relative velocity, the greater the time dilation between one another, with time slowing to a stop as one approaches the speed of light (299,792,458 m/s). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation#Time_dilation_caused_by_a_relative_velocity
To grasp the whole ‘time slowing to a stop as one, (an observer), approaches the speed of light’ concept a little more easily, imagine moving away from the face of a clock at the speed of light. Would not the hands on the clock stay stationary as you moved away from the face of the clock at the speed of light? Moving away from the face of a clock at the speed of light happens to be the exact same ‘thought experiment’ that gave Einstein his breakthrough insight into e=mc2.
“In the spring of 1905, Einstein was riding on a bus and he looked back at the famous clock tower that dominates Bern Switzerland. And then he imagined, “What happens if that bus were racing near the speed of light?”, (narrator: “In his imagination, Einstein looks back at the clock tower and what he sees is astonishing. As he reaches the speed of light, the hands of the clock appear frozen in time”), “Einstein would later write, “A storm broke in my mind. All of the sudden everything, everything, kept gushing forward.”, (narrator: “Einstein knows that, back at the clock tower, time is passing normally, but on Einstein’s light speed bus, as he reaches the speed of light, the light from the clock can no longer catch up to him. The faster he races through space, the slower he moves through time. This insight sparks the birth of Einstein’s Special Theory of relativity, which says that space and time are deeply connected. In fact, they are one and the same. A flexible fabric called spacetime.”) – Michio Kaku Einstein: Einstein’s Miracle Year (‘Insight into Eternity’ – Thought Experiment – 6:29 minute mark) – video https://youtu.be/QQ35opgrhNA?t=389
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