Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

There is a bill for Alan Guth’s free lunch after all

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In “Existence: Why is there a universe?” (New Scientist, 26 July 2011), Amanda Gefter asks,

Might something similar account for the origin of the universe itself? Quite plausibly, says Wilczek. “There is no barrier between nothing and a rich universe full of matter,” he says. Perhaps the big bang was just nothingness doing what comes naturally.

This, of course, raises the question of what came before the big bang, and how long it lasted. Unfortunately at this point basic ideas begin to fail us; the concept “before” becomes meaningless. In the words of Stephen Hawking, it’s like asking what is north of the north pole.

Even so, there is an even more mind-blowing consequence of the idea that something can come from nothing: perhaps nothingness itself cannot exist.

Indeed, she quotes cosmologist Alan Guth, “Maybe a better way of saying it is that something is nothing.” And yet, Gefter asks,

None of this really gets us off the hook, however. Our understanding of creation relies on the validity of the laws of physics, particularly quantum uncertainty. But that implies that the laws of physics were somehow encoded into the fabric of our universe before it existed. How can physical laws exist outside of space and time and without a cause of their own?

At this point, a waiter discreetly approaches with a narrow, classy black folder with a single piece of paper inside, bypasses Gefter and offers it to Guth …

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Comments
Well Elizabeth you almost convinced me what you said is absolutely true, save for the fact that now, as a atheist, I must deny that absolute truth exists.bornagain77
July 31, 2011
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Elizabeth Liddle:
AHe seems to be saying that all machines are concrete instantiations of a formal system (I’m not sure if this is true, but maybe it is), and therefore there must be propositions that we can see to be true but which the machine cannot prove. Therefore “we” (the entities that can see a proposition to be true) cannot be the same thing as machines.
Almost, but not quite. It follows that no machine can be a complete or adequate model of the mind, that minds are essentially different from machines. Do you see how this has to be true, given that the premises are true? If so, then you must attack one or more of the premises. Which premise are you disagreeing with?Mung
July 31, 2011
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OK, ba77, I accept that there is evidence that suggests to some people that mind and brain are not close coupled. I think this evidence is potentially interesting, but whenever I have looked into it, it has appeared to that the interpretation depends on the assumption that we cannot project back our sense of having been aware through a time when our brains were not functioning. I think this is a very dubious assumption, and goes against all the evidende we have from other sources, including EEG, TMS and other data, which suggests that we construct reality "on the fly" as we go. And this is why I do not find your links to videos reporting various bizarre experiences at all convincing as evidence that what the experiencer reported mapped on to any kind of reality. But I do understand that people find this interpretation of how consciousness profoundly counter-intuitive. In particular, I have not yet an account of an NDE that cannot be readily explained once we drop the assumption that what we remember experiencing in the past is necessarily a report of what we actually were experiencing at the time.Elizabeth Liddle
July 31, 2011
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Elizabeth, this short video bears just about exactly the same insurmountable dilemma as quantum wave collapse presents to the mind-brain question: Why Couldn't the Universe Just Create Itself? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OQAbF0ZB7sbornagain77
July 31, 2011
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Elizabeth you state: All the evidence suggests that mental events and neural events are so close-coupled as to be best conceived of as different aspects of the same thing – the mental aspect being the subjective experience of the objectively observable neural aspect (well, fairly objectively observable, anyway). Perhaps you can help me with my new found atheistic faith Elizabeth, but when you state ALL EVIDENCE, does this mean that now as a atheist I can call the cherry picked evidence, such what you have chosen to consider, 'ALL EVIDENCE" and that I am free to ignore ANY EVIDENCE that may falsify my atheistic presuppositions, such as what you have chosen to do??? Boy if so this is going to make debates a breeze!!!! ,,, As well another question that is nagging the new religious zeal I have for my new atheistic faith is that I, as atheist, must hold that chaos is the ultimate creator of everything since there is no Almighty God, yet in my desire to win new converts to my atheistic faith of chaos as creator I have to use the unchanging transcendent entity of logic, yet, in the chaos as creator model, unchanging logic is but a mere illusion since absolute unchanging truths do not exist in the first place but merely chaos from which the 'illusion' of truth emerged!!! Do you see my problem here Elizabeth, I'm faced with the problem of convincing people the truth of my claims win in reality I deny that truth exists in the first place. Frankly Elizabeth, this newly found atheistic faith of mine is not fairing to well if in order to believe it is absolutely true I must deny that absolute truth exists. Oh well I'm sure you have it all worked out in your imagination.bornagain77
July 31, 2011
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ScottAndrews:
To me this is a strange reverse version of “god of the gaps.” Those who believe in design (as I do) are typically in awe of the intricacy and foresight we see. And experience shows that as technology enables us to look closer, we usually see even more intricacy. We don’t even know where it’s going to stop. So why would we conclude that an organ can’t contain our mind? For those theologically inclined (as I am again) that’s also consistent with the Bible. Perhaps I shouldn’t mention that because the scriptural debate is not what I’m addressing (which is why I don’t quote anything.) But we’ve already seen enough that we should hesitate before placing limits on what can and can’t be designed. And how many of us have said that of all designed biological forms, the human brain is the most amazing?
Interesting point (I think - unless I am reading you upside down!) I would certainly agree with your last sentence. It seems churlish to me, even as a non-design-advocate, to deny the brain credit for the thing we call mind! As for the brain-as-mind-receiver model - it just doesn't work, on so many levels. All the evidence suggests that mental events and neural events are so close-coupled as to be best conceived of as different aspects of the same thing - the mental aspect being the subjective experience of the objectively observable neural aspect (well, fairly objectively observable, anyway). Or, if you like mental activity being the output of neural activity that is fed back in as input to the neurons.Elizabeth Liddle
July 31, 2011
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jvtorley,
For instance, you cannot make a theist think the thought, “There is no God,” by stimulating his/her frontal cortex, or for that matter, Wernicke’s area or Broca’s area. If you could do that, then materialism would certainly be true.
How about instead of "there is no God" we have "I must shop till I drop" or "I must gamble"? All behaviors that are just as complex as a belief in a supernatural being. Just take some Mirapex:
Gambling is only one of the pleasure/reward-seeking activities that can increase in patients taking Mirapex. Other obsessive behaviors include: Excessive shopping Overeating Hypersexuality All these obsessive behaviors stop immediately when patients are taken off of Mirapex or given a reduced dose.
Does that prove materialism is true then? The compulsion to "gamble" is not in the pill is it? The "information" is not in the pill itself. Yet specific thoughts are generated and acted upon, as if there were the patients own thoughts. And, of course, they were.WilliamRoache
July 31, 2011
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vjtorley:
Hi Elizabeth, It may interest you to know that the case of Phineas Gage has already been discussed in a post on Uncommon Descent. There are a lot of popular myths associated with this case, as Denyse O’Leary revealed in her post of 25 March 2009: https://uncommondescent.com.....sychopath/ Follow-up here: https://uncommondescent.com.....t-goes-on/
Well, I wasn't talking about "popular myths", although I did select Gage as a well known example. I'm actually talking about the entire field of neuropsychology.
My own take is that while traumatic brain injury may change aspects of your personality, the important thing is that you cannot control the propositional content of a person’s thoughts by altering his/her brain. For instance, you cannot make a theist think the thought, “There is no God,” by stimulating his/her frontal cortex, or for that matter, Wernicke’s area or Broca’s area. If you could do that, then materialism would certainly be true.
I disagree with your last sentence, vjtorley, which is just as well, because I suggest that the rest of your statement is wrong! Now traumatic brain injury, and stroke, though devastating, tend to be local in effect (though not always), and the brain often has ways of bypassing, if inefficiently, the damaged regions. However disorders like schizophrenia, though more subtle, are also devastating, and non-local, and they do indeed lead to changes in "propositional content". Indeed delusions are exactly that - deviant propositions. And although schizophrenia probably has a developmental aetiology in most cases, it can also, rarely, be triggered by traumatic brain injury, and delusions can also be triggered by other pathological processes.
All right. Now, why can’t drunks think straight? Simple enough. Thinking logically is a higher-level activity which presupposes the occurrence of a host of lower-level activities in the brain (e.g. memory retrieval, holding information in short-term memory, forming associations between memories, executing mechanical steps in a sequence, etc.). Drunkenness interferes with the brain’s ability to perform these lower-level activities, so it takes a long time for drunks to do things that they could do much faster while sober. Brain injury can do the same.
Well, this seems to me like simplification to the point of falsification! For a start, what you list as "lower-level activities" include what are generally considered "executive functions" and denoted "high level" (although the words "high" and "low" being metaphorical, need proper unpacking in either context). Yes, working memory is affected by alchohol, but so is behavioural inhibition. And although traumatic brain injury can sometimes produce symptoms of drunkenness, that is relatively rare.
You might be inclined to simply identify higher-level activities with the ensemble of the lower-level activities that I perform while engaging in logical thought. I would respectfully disagree. Choose any of these activities, or choose all of them if you wish. The statement, “Tom is performing mechanical operation(s) X” will still not be equivalent in meaning to “Tom is thinking about Y.” And that holds no matter what your choice of X or Y is. The latter activity is inherently meaningful; the former activity is not. A mechanical operation can be performed without any understanding of its meaning; logical thinking on the other hand requires the thinker to advert to the meaning of the terms used. (For that reason, I wouldn’t say computers think. They are just devices that simulate thought, by executing mechanical steps very quickly and outputting a result that intelligent users can interpret in a way that is meaningful to them.)
There are quite a lot of assertions in this paragraph that I would seriously question! And I'd start with your division of "activities" into "higher-level" and "lower-level". I'm not sure you are cutting in the right plane.
By the way, what do you think of J.R. Lucas’s mathematical arguments against identifying minds with machines? See http://www.angelfire.com/linux.....soul-godel
I’d be interested to hear your opinion of his views Thanks for asking! I am not (obviously) a trained philosopher, but as I understand that paper, the key paragraph is this:
Gödel's theorem must apply to cybernetical machines, because it is of the essence of being a machine, that it should be a concrete instantiation of a formal system. It follows that given any machine which is consistent and capable of doing simple arithmetic, there is a formula which it is incapable of producing as being true---i.e., the formula is unprovable-in-the-system-but which we can see to be true. It follows that no machine can be a complete or adequate model of the mind, that minds are essentially different from machines.
And I am not sure that I understand it. He seems to be saying that all machines are concrete instantiations of a formal system (I'm not sure if this is true, but maybe it is), and therefore there must be propositions that we can see to be true but which the machine cannot prove. Therefore "we" (the entities that can see a proposition to be true) cannot be the same thing as machines. Do I have that about right? But my problem with his essay starts in the next paragraph. The machine-model he makes of a brain-machine is nothing like any brain-model I have ever seen, because he omits probably the most famous things we actually know about brains which is that what fires together wires together. So when he says:
When we {45} consider the possibility that the mind might be a cybernetical mechanism we have such a model in view; we suppose that the brain is composed of complicated neural circuits, and that the information fed in by the senses is "processed" and acted upon or stored for future use. If it is such a mechanism, then given the way in which it is programmed---the way in which it is "wired up"---and the information which has been fed into it, the response---the "output"---is determined, and could, granted sufficient time, be calculated. Our idea of a machine is just this, that its behaviour is completely determined by the way it is made and the incoming "stimuli": there is no possibility of its acting on its own: given a certain form of construction and a certain input of information, then it must act in a certain specific way.
(my bold) In other words he has missed an entire dimension; he regards as static the "certain form of construction", when in fact it is dynamic - the "form of construction" is a function of prior inputs, and those inputs are a function of prior outputs! He presents us with a non-chaotic brain, whereas what we have is a profoundly chaotic brain. And it is that chaos (poor term, but it's the one we've got) which, IMO, hold the clue to both mind and the answer to the Gödel question. To mind, because what we have is a recursive loop, providing the dimension along which experience can occur, and to the Gödel question because just like the feedback-oscillation we get in trying to determing whether a Gödel proposition is provable in the system, so we get just that in the brain. And the brain has its solution which is that decision making turns out not to be based figuring out absolute what the correct answer is to a problem but in making a Bayesian estimate of the likely correct answer, given the data, and given the time limit for the answer. I'm sure the above sounds like gobbledly gook, because I'm trying to condense a lot of thoughts, some of which are still somewhat fuzzy, into a very short post, but I thought I'd give you my take on the piece before it scrolls away! And, not wanting to just pimp by blog here, but to offer an alternative venue for the kind of slower-moving reflective discussion that is a bit difficult on such a fast moving site, if you would like to visit: http://theskepticalzone.com/wp/ I'd be delighted to add you to the list of contributors, and you could perhaps write this as an OP? Not that you can't do that here of course, but at least I wouldn't lose the bookmark!Elizabeth Liddle
July 31, 2011
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I thought I had made my concession clear Elizabeth. You sold me,,, temporal things within space-time can produce permanent transcendent things like logic, information, mind etc.. etc.. etc.. and permanent transcendent things are not required to bring temporal things into existence! But you had to bring up that pesky wave collapse from the transcendent realm to the temporal realm. This does not help my new atheistic faith Elizabeth!!! I'm a newbie to this whole atheistic materialism thing and you have to be careful not to mention things like instantaneous quantum wave collapse to uncertain temporal particle until I can handle such counter-intuitive materialistic things!!! You know I might just revert to my old ways of thinking God had a hand in creating, and sustaining, the universe, and all life in it if you are not careful!!!bornagain77
July 31, 2011
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Elizabeth Liddle:
In other words, starting from the premise that “The universe does not have a mind”, you conclude, logically, that “the universe was designed and instantiated by a mind that transcends physical reality and is outside of space and time”.
haha. omgowd. now she wants to use logic. Try to subject her own statements to logical analysis and see what happens.Mung
July 31, 2011
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ba77: you specifically mentioned evidence that consciousness...precedes wave collapase. That is what I hoped you would cite for me, as you seemed to think it was crucial.Elizabeth Liddle
July 31, 2011
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To me this is a strange reverse version of "god of the gaps." Those who believe in design (as I do) are typically in awe of the intricacy and foresight we see. And experience shows that as technology enables us to look closer, we usually see even more intricacy. We don't even know where it's going to stop. So why would we conclude that an organ can't contain our mind? For those theologically inclined (as I am again) that's also consistent with the Bible. Perhaps I shouldn't mention that because the scriptural debate is not what I'm addressing (which is why I don't quote anything.) But we've already seen enough that we should hesitate before placing limits on what can and can't be designed. And how many of us have said that of all designed biological forms, the human brain is the most amazing?ScottAndrews
July 31, 2011
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I don't know Elizabeth, perhaps post 1, 7 and 10, is the evidence you are ignoring?!? Not to mention the evidence Dr. Torley presented at 12 and Bruce David presented at 13?!? But perhaps I can see where you are so confused as to think material particles, within space-time, can actually produce transcendent entities which are not constrained by space time, you do have that nifty little Lenski e-coli experiment that showed the five 'beneficial' mutation getting in each others way towards building functional information/complexity. Why by-golly Elizabeth how could I possibly have been so naive as to think that the transcendent origin of the universe, revealed in the Big Bang, and that the transcendent 'sustaining' of the universe, revealed in quantum mechanics, could possible compete with five 'beneficial' mutation getting in each others way towards building functional information/complexity??? Hopefully you will overlook such a grievous error in logic on my part and continue to me show which evidence matters and which does not. I'm a slow learner but I'm fairly certain, with your guiding hand, one day I may be so wise as to think that transcendence may be purchased by that which is temporal!bornagain77
July 31, 2011
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In what way, ba77? You suggested that I was ignoring crucial evidence. I asked you to provide that evidence. I cannot very well take into account evidence that has not been presented to me!Elizabeth Liddle
July 31, 2011
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Elizabeth, your response, for lack of a better word, is simply pathetic!bornagain77
July 31, 2011
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ba77:
Elizabeth, regardless of whether or not you think the argument is circular
Yes, I agree that the circularity is secondary to a more important issue.
‘philosophically’, SCIENTIFICALLY it is shown that consciousness/observation must precede wave collapse to 3-Dimensional ‘material’ particle.
Well, not really, ba77.
You simply have no SCIENTIFIC basis to postulate ‘bottom up’ emergence of consciousness from a material basis.
Can you explain why you think that "consciousness...must precede wave collapse"? I'm not even sure what that is supposed to mean.
If you wish to maintain integrity towards the scientific evidence, or credibility towards us, you must effectively deal with this evidence and not simply pretend as if this presents no problem to your atheistic materialism!!!
Well, I'd like to see the evidence you mention that consciousness precedes wave collapse (whatever that means).
I hope I’m wrong, But how come I have a strong hunch that your philosophical bias is much more important to you than acknowledging the simple truth in this matter?!?
I'm not sure why you have that hunch, ba77, but I don't think that there is a "simple truth" here. Consciousness is complicated! Plus, simply, I'm not sure why you would think I have a "philosophical bias". Can you say why you think so?Elizabeth Liddle
July 31, 2011
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Elizabeth, regardless of whether or not you think the argument is circular 'philosophically', SCIENTIFICALLY it is shown that consciousness/observation must precede wave collapse to 3-Dimensional 'material' particle. You simply have no SCIENTIFIC basis to postulate 'bottom up' emergence of consciousness from a material basis. If you wish to maintain integrity towards the scientific evidence, or credibility towards us, you must effectively deal with this evidence and not simply pretend as if this presents no problem to your atheistic materialism!!! I hope I'm wrong, But how come I have a strong hunch that your philosophical bias is much more important to you than acknowledging the simple truth in this matter?!? ================= Miracle of the Moment - Steven Curtis Chapman - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rResKXjKqjQ ============================ Bruce David, Are you a Theist now instead of a pantheist? ==================bornagain77
July 31, 2011
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Hi, Gil: Just to press you on this (and thanks to others for their substantial responses, to which I will return!) - here is my puzzle. You originally said:
But the universe (physical reality) could not have “known” we were coming. Physical stuff doesn’t “know” anything. The universe does not have a mind. Only that which caused the universe to come into existence could have “known” this, and this entity must have planned it for a purpose. Therefore, simple logic leads me to conclude that the universe was designed and instantiated by a mind that transcends physical reality and is outside of space and time — a mind of extraordinary creative power that had humanity in mind as a goal — the ultimate goal as far as we know, because no other living thing has remotely reached humanity’s level of comprehension and investigative potential.
In other words, starting from the premise that "The universe does not have a mind", you conclude, logically, that "the universe was designed and instantiated by a mind that transcends physical reality and is outside of space and time". So I asked you about your premise, and you replied, as follows: Me:
Gil: how do you know that the universe doesn’t have a mind? I’m not saying it does – but by what reasoning do you infer that it does not?
Gil:
Liz, The universe is physical stuff. Physical stuff doesn’t think, only minds do. Did time, space, matter, and energy — immediately after the big bang, at which point time itself came into existence — have a mind, and plan its own existence before* it existed? *Of course, “before” the origin of time has no meaning, since “before the origin of time” implies a “time” when time did not exist. But you get the idea.
To which I replied:
OK, thanks Gil. So your inference follows from the premise that minds are independent of brains? And – this is not a trick question, I’m interested – how do you account for findings that brain changes lead to mind changes? In stroke, for example?
To which you replied:
Precisely, because it seems to me that logic dictates that a mind caused the universe with intent and purpose. Obviously, that mind could not have had a physical brain. My inference and conclusion is that my mind is not just chemistry, but a manifestation of self which also transcends time and space. Should my brain cease to function, I fully expect my mind to exist outside of space and time, where it was conceived.
Now it seems to me that this can be reduced to, given the premise that the universe was created by a mind (which I will accept for now): A mind is not a property of physical stuff. The universe is physical stuff. Therefore the universe was created by by something that transcends physical stuff. Therefore minds transcend time and space. Therefore my mind transcends time and space. Therefore mind is not a property of physical stuff. Which is of course circular! Can you tell me where either I have misunderstood you, or you might have missed a step? Because given your premise that the universe was created by a mind, another potential conclusion, if minds were properties of physical stuff, is that the universe was self-created. cheers Gil LizzieElizabeth Liddle
July 31, 2011
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Re the mind/brain discussion: Jill Bolte Taylor is a neuroscientist who had a very serious stroke from which she almost died, but from which she miraculously fully, or nearly fully, recovered. After her recovery, she wrote a book, My Stroke of Insight, describing the experience and her recovery. What is practically unique about this case is that she is able now to communicate about the event, whereas for some time subsequent to it, her capacity for speech was nearly obliterated. And the point is that if you read the book carefully, you will see that her mind was fully functioning throughout the entire experience, although often on a higher spiritual plane than that on which she or most of us operate during ordinary waking consciousness. She was fully capable of thought while at the same time her ability to use language to express that thought was absent. To me, the obvious conclusion is that the mind exists independently of the brain, but the capacity to express ourselves linguistically IS a function of the brain. Bornagain: you quote Richard Conn Henry as follows: "And if mind is not a product of real matter, but rather is the creator of the 'illusion' of material reality (which has, in fact, despite the materialists, been known to be the case, since the discovery of quantum mechanics in 1925), then a theistic view of our existence becomes the only rational alternative to solipsism..." He is clearly saying that matter has no independent existence, an idea you vehemently argued against when I put it forth in an earlier thread. What gives? You also quote Bruce Gordon on a different topic. I pointed out in one of my arguments that Bruce Gordon, in an article from The Nature of Nature agrees with me, Jonathan Edwards, and Bishop Berkeley that the world is basically virtual reality. So is Gordon right when he agrees with you and wrong when he agrees with me?Bruce David
July 30, 2011
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Elizabeth, I think bornagain77 put forward a powerful case in his latest post for the view that mind, rather than matter, is what is fundamental in our cosmos. The universality of form, and the fact that every material phenomenon we observe can be described in the language of mathematics - and very elegant mathematics at that - strongly suggests that the universe is "a great thought" as the British astronomer Sir James Jeans put it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Hopwood_Jeans#Idealism If the universe is written in the language of mathematics then it is hard not to see a Mind behind it. The fact that it appears fine-tuned for life - a fact that even a "multiverse generator" cannot explain away, as I have argued in a recent post, also suggests that the Mind had a purpose in making the universe as it is. As I'll argue in a forthcoming post, the vast size and great age of the universe do nothing to weaken this inference, and the evil we observe in Nature, while senseless at times, does not mar the perfection we observe in the laws of Nature. To those who don't like our universe because of the natural evils it contains, I would say: build a better one! Or at the very least, demonstrate that a better one can be built, with different laws that are at least as elegant as the ones that obtain in our own universe.vjtorley
July 30, 2011
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Hi Elizabeth, It may interest you to know that the case of Phineas Gage has already been discussed in a post on Uncommon Descent. There are a lot of popular myths associated with this case, as Denyse O'Leary revealed in her post of 25 March 2009: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/phineas-gage-evolution-of-a-lecture-room-psychopath/ Follow-up here: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/phineas-gage-the-cheat-goes-on/ My own take is that while traumatic brain injury may change aspects of your personality, the important thing is that you cannot control the propositional content of a person's thoughts by altering his/her brain. For instance, you cannot make a theist think the thought, "There is no God," by stimulating his/her frontal cortex, or for that matter, Wernicke's area or Broca's area. If you could do that, then materialism would certainly be true. All right. Now, why can't drunks think straight? Simple enough. Thinking logically is a higher-level activity which presupposes the occurrence of a host of lower-level activities in the brain (e.g. memory retrieval, holding information in short-term memory, forming associations between memories, executing mechanical steps in a sequence, etc.). Drunkenness interferes with the brain's ability to perform these lower-level activities, so it takes a long time for drunks to do things that they could do much faster while sober. Brain injury can do the same. You might be inclined to simply identify higher-level activities with the ensemble of the lower-level activities that I perform while engaging in logical thought. I would respectfully disagree. Choose any of these activities, or choose all of them if you wish. The statement, "Tom is performing mechanical operation(s) X" will still not be equivalent in meaning to "Tom is thinking about Y." And that holds no matter what your choice of X or Y is. The latter activity is inherently meaningful; the former activity is not. A mechanical operation can be performed without any understanding of its meaning; logical thinking on the other hand requires the thinker to advert to the meaning of the terms used. (For that reason, I wouldn't say computers think. They are just devices that simulate thought, by executing mechanical steps very quickly and outputting a result that intelligent users can interpret in a way that is meaningful to them.) By the way, what do you think of J.R. Lucas's mathematical arguments against identifying minds with machines? See http://www.angelfire.com/linux/vjtorley/whybelieve2.html#soul-godel I'd be interested to hear your opinion of his views.vjtorley
July 30, 2011
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Elizabeth, I would argue the finer points of where the analogy breaks down, but lets just cut to the chase and show why you have no foundation in physical science to postulate consciousness arising from a material basis in the first place: Dr. Quantum - Double Slit Experiment & Entanglement - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4096579/ The immediate question is, "What does conscious observation have to do with anything in the experiments of quantum mechanics?" and thus by extrapolation of that question, "What does conscious observation have to do with anything in the universe?" Yet, the assertion that consciousness is to be treated as a separate entity when dealing with quantum mechanics, and thus with the universe, has some very strong clout behind it. Quantum mind–body problem Parallels between quantum mechanics and mind/body dualism were first drawn by the founders of quantum mechanics including Erwin Schrödinger, Werner Heisenberg, Wolfgang Pauli, Niels Bohr, and Eugene Wigner http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind%E2%80%93body_problem "It was not possible to formulate the laws (of quantum theory) in a fully consistent way without reference to consciousness." Eugene Wigner (1902 -1995) from his collection of essays "Symmetries and Reflections – Scientific Essays"; Eugene Wigner laid the foundation for the theory of symmetries in quantum mechanics, for which he received the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1963 Here is the key experiment that led Wigner to his Nobel Prize winning work on quantum symmetries: Eugene Wigner Excerpt: To express this basic experience in a more direct way: the world does not have a privileged center, there is no absolute rest, preferred direction, unique origin of calendar time, even left and right seem to be rather symmetric. The interference of electrons, photons, neutrons has indicated that the state of a particle can be described by a vector possessing a certain number of components. As the observer is replaced by another observer (working elsewhere, looking at a different direction, using another clock, perhaps being left-handed), the state of the very same particle is described by another vector, obtained from the previous vector by multiplying it with a matrix. This matrix transfers from one observer to another. http://www.reak.bme.hu/Wigner_Course/WignerBio/wb1.htm i.e. In the experiment the 'world' (i.e. the universe) does not have a ‘privileged center’. Yet strangely, the conscious observer does exhibit a 'privileged center' in the universe. This is since the 'matrix', which determines which vector will be used to describe the particle in the experiment, is 'observer-centric' in its origination! Thus explaining Wigner’s dramatic statement, “It was not possible to formulate the laws (of quantum theory) in a fully consistent way without reference to consciousness.” This following experiment extended the double slit experiment to show that the 'spooky actions', for instantaneous quantum wave collapse, happen regardless of any considerations for time or distance i.e. The following experiment shows that quantum actions are 'universal and instantaneous': Wheeler's Classic Delayed Choice Experiment: Excerpt: Now, for many billions of years the photon is in transit in region 3. Yet we can choose (many billions of years later) which experimental set up to employ – the single wide-focus, or the two narrowly focused instruments. We have chosen whether to know which side of the galaxy the photon passed by (by choosing whether to use the two-telescope set up or not, which are the instruments that would give us the information about which side of the galaxy the photon passed). We have delayed this choice until a time long after the particles "have passed by one side of the galaxy, or the other side of the galaxy, or both sides of the galaxy," so to speak. Yet, it seems paradoxically that our later choice of whether to obtain this information determines which side of the galaxy the light passed, so to speak, billions of years ago. So it seems that time has nothing to do with effects of quantum mechanics. And, indeed, the original thought experiment was not based on any analysis of how particles evolve and behave over time – it was based on the mathematics. This is what the mathematics predicted for a result, and this is exactly the result obtained in the laboratory. http://www.bottomlayer.com/bottom/basic_delayed_choice.htm And of course all this leads us back to this question. "What does our conscious observation have to do with anything in collapsing the wave function of the photon in the double slit experiment and in the universe?", and furthermore "What is causing the quantum waves to collapse from their 'higher dimension' in the first place since we humans are definitely not the ones who are causing the photon waves to collapse to their 'uncertain 3D wave/particle' state?" With the refutation of the materialistic 'hidden variable' argument and with the patent absurdity of the materialistic 'Many-Worlds' hypothesis, then I can only think of one sufficient explanation for quantum wave collapse to photon; Psalm 118:27 God is the LORD, who hath shown us light:,,, In the following article, Physics Professor Richard Conn Henry is quite blunt as to what quantum mechanics reveals to us about the 'primary cause' of our 3D reality: Alain Aspect and Anton Zeilinger by Richard Conn Henry - Physics Professor - John Hopkins University Excerpt: Why do people cling with such ferocity to belief in a mind-independent reality? It is surely because if there is no such reality, then ultimately (as far as we can know) mind alone exists. And if mind is not a product of real matter, but rather is the creator of the "illusion" of material reality (which has, in fact, despite the materialists, been known to be the case, since the discovery of quantum mechanics in 1925), then a theistic view of our existence becomes the only rational alternative to solipsism (solipsism is the philosophical idea that only one's own mind is sure to exist). (Dr. Henry's referenced experiment and paper - “An experimental test of non-local realism” by S. Gröblacher et. al., Nature 446, 871, April 2007 - “To be or not to be local” by Alain Aspect, Nature 446, 866, April 2007 http://henry.pha.jhu.edu/aspect.html Professor Henry's bluntness on the implications of quantum mechanics continues here: Quantum Enigma:Physics Encounters Consciousness - Richard Conn Henry - Professor of Physics - John Hopkins University Excerpt: It is more than 80 years since the discovery of quantum mechanics gave us the most fundamental insight ever into our nature: the overturning of the Copernican Revolution, and the restoration of us human beings to centrality in the Universe. And yet, have you ever before read a sentence having meaning similar to that of my preceding sentence? Likely you have not, and the reason you have not is, in my opinion, that physicists are in a state of denial… https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-quantum-enigma-of-consciousness-and-the-identity-of-the-designer/ As Professor Henry pointed out, it has been known since the discovery of quantum mechanics itself, early last century, that the universe is indeed 'Mental', as is illustrated by this quote from Max Planck. "As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter." Max Planck - The Father Of Quantum Mechanics - Das Wesen der Materie [The Nature of Matter], speech at Florence, Italy (1944) Colossians 1:17 "He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." (Double Slit) A Delayed Choice Quantum Eraser - updated 2007 Excerpt: Upon accessing the information gathered by the Coincidence Circuit, we the observer are shocked to learn that the pattern shown by the positions registered at D0 (Detector Zero) at Time 2 depends entirely on the information gathered later at Time 4 and available to us at the conclusion of the experiment. http://www.bottomlayer.com/bottom/kim-scully/kim-scully-web.htm It is interesting to note that some materialists seem to have a very hard time grasping the simple point of the double slit experiments, but to try to put it more clearly; To explain an event which defies time and space, as the quantum erasure experiment clearly does, you cannot appeal to any material entity in the experiment like the detector, or any other 3D physical part of the experiment, which is itself constrained by the limits of time and space. To give an adequate explanation for defying time and space one is forced to appeal to a transcendent entity which is itself not confined by time or space. But then again I guess I can see why forcing someone who claims to be a atheistic materialist to appeal to a non-material transcendent entity, to give an adequate explanation, would invoke such utter confusion on their part. Yet to try to put it in even more 'shocking' terms, the 'shocking' conclusion of the experiment is that a transcendent Mind, with a capital M, must precede the collapse of quantum waves to 3-Dimensional particles. Moreover, it is impossible for a human mind to ever 'emerge' from any 3-D material particle which is itself semi-dependent on our 'observation' for its own collapse to a 3D reality in the first place. This is more than a slight problem for the atheistic-evolutionary materialist who insists that our minds 'emerged', or evolved, from 3D matter. In the following article Professor Henry puts it more clearly than I can: The Mental Universe - Richard Conn Henry - Professor of Physics John Hopkins University Excerpt: The only reality is mind and observations, but observations are not of things. To see the Universe as it really is, we must abandon our tendency to conceptualize observations as things.,,, Physicists shy away from the truth because the truth is so alien to everyday physics. A common way to evade the mental universe is to invoke "decoherence" - the notion that "the physical environment" is sufficient to create reality, independent of the human mind. Yet the idea that any irreversible act of amplification is necessary to collapse the wave function is known to be wrong: in "Renninger-type" experiments, the wave function is collapsed simply by your human mind seeing nothing. The universe is entirely mental,,,, The Universe is immaterial — mental and spiritual. Live, and enjoy. http://henry.pha.jhu.edu/The.mental.universe.pdf etc.. etc..bornagain77
July 30, 2011
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Liz: OK, thanks Gil. So your inference follows from the premise that minds are independent of brains? Precisely, because it seems to me that logic dictates that a mind caused the universe with intent and purpose. Obviously, that mind could not have had a physical brain. My inference and conclusion is that my mind is not just chemistry, but a manifestation of self which also transcends time and space. Should my brain cease to function, I fully expect my mind to exist outside of space and time, where it was conceived.GilDodgen
July 30, 2011
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OK, good answer, ba77. So your model is that the brain acts as a receiver of mind? Doesn't quite work, though, because when the brain is damaged, you don't just get a fuzzy mind, you actually have altered thoughts. In other words it isn't that signal to noise ratio goes down so much as the signal changes. What do you make of Phineas Gage?Elizabeth Liddle
July 30, 2011
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Liz you ask: 'And – this is not a trick question, I’m interested – how do you account for findings that brain changes lead to mind changes? In stroke, for example?' And how does the fact that a TV may be malfunctioning relate to the fact that TV signals do not arise from the TV in the first place??? A Reply to Shermer Medical Evidence for NDEs (Near Death Experiences) – Pim van Lommel Excerpt: For decades, extensive research has been done to localize memories (information) inside the brain, so far without success.,,,,So we need a functioning brain to receive our consciousness into our waking consciousness. And as soon as the function of brain has been lost, like in clinical death or in brain death, with iso-electricity on the EEG, memories and consciousness do still exist, but the reception ability is lost. People can experience their consciousness outside their body, with the possibility of perception out and above their body, with identity, and with heightened awareness, attention, well-structured thought processes, memories and emotions. And they also can experience their consciousness in a dimension where past, present and future exist at the same moment, without time and space, and can be experienced as soon as attention has been directed to it (life review and preview), and even sometimes they come in contact with the “fields of consciousness” of deceased relatives. And later they can experience their conscious return into their body. http://www.nderf.org/vonlommel_skeptic_response.htm ================ Blind Woman Can See During Near Death Experience (NDE) - Pim von Lommel - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3994599/ Kenneth Ring and Sharon Cooper (1997) conducted a study of 31 blind people, many of who reported vision during their Near Death Experiences (NDEs). 21 of these people had had an NDE while the remaining 10 had had an out-of-body experience (OBE), but no NDE. It was found that in the NDE sample, about half had been blind from birth. (of note: This 'anomaly' is also found for deaf people who can hear sound during their Near Death Experiences(NDEs).) http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2320/is_1_64/ai_65076875/ The Day I Died - Part 4 of 6 - The Extremely 'Monitored' Near Death Experience of Pam Reynolds - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4045560 The Scientific Evidence for Near Death Experiences - Dr Jeffery Long - Melvin Morse M.D. - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4454627 ==================== It is very interesting to note that quantum entanglement, which conclusively demonstrates that ‘information’ in its pure 'quantum form' is completely transcendent of any time and space constraints, should be found in molecular biology on such a massive scale, for how can the quantum entanglement 'effect' in biology possibly be explained by a material (matter/energy) 'cause' when the quantum entanglement 'effect' falsified material particles as its own 'causation' in the first place? (A. Aspect) Appealing to the probability of various configurations of material particles, as Darwinism does, simply will not help since a timeless/spaceless cause must be supplied which is beyond the capacity of the material particles themselves to supply! To give a coherent explanation for an effect that is shown to be completely independent of any time and space constraints one is forced to appeal to a cause that is itself not limited to time and space! i.e. Put more simply, you cannot explain a effect by a cause that has been falsified by the very same effect you are seeking to explain! Improbability arguments of various 'special' configurations of material particles, which have been a staple of the arguments against neo-Darwinism, simply do not apply since the cause is not within the material particles in the first place! Yet it is also very interesting to note, in Darwinism's inability to explain this 'transcendent quantum effect' adequately, that Theism has always postulated a transcendent component to man that is not constrained by time and space. i.e. Theism has always postulated a 'eternal soul' for man that lives past the death of the body. The ‘Fourth Dimension’ Of Living Systems https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1Gs_qvlM8-7bFwl9rZUB9vS6SZgLH17eOZdT4UbPoy0Y Quantum no-hiding theorem experimentally confirmed for first time - March 2011 Excerpt: In the classical world, information can be copied and deleted at will. In the quantum world, however, the conservation of quantum information means that information cannot be created nor destroyed. http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-03-quantum-no-hiding-theorem-experimentally.html etc.. etc.. etc..bornagain77
July 30, 2011
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OK, thanks Gil. So your inference follows from the premise that minds are independent of brains? And - this is not a trick question, I'm interested - how do you account for findings that brain changes lead to mind changes? In stroke, for example?Elizabeth Liddle
July 30, 2011
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Liz, The universe is physical stuff. Physical stuff doesn't think, only minds do. Did time, space, matter, and energy -- immediately after the big bang, at which point time itself came into existence -- have a mind, and plan its own existence before* it existed? *Of course, "before" the origin of time has no meaning, since "before the origin of time" implies a "time" when time did not exist. But you get the idea.GilDodgen
July 30, 2011
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Gil: how do you know that the universe doesn't have a mind? I'm not saying it does - but by what reasoning do you infer that it does not?Elizabeth Liddle
July 30, 2011
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It seems to me that if something came from nothing, nothing is not nothing; "it" is something. And it cannot be nothing, otherwise it would not be an it. Therefore, it seems logical that the universe came from something, but that something must transcend space, time, matter, and energy, which all came into existence at the birth of the physical universe (i.e., that something must be "super" natural by definition -- outside of nature). The famous physicist Freeman Dyson has commented: "The more I examine the universe and the details of its architecture, the more evidence I find that the universe in some sense must have known we were coming." But the universe (physical reality) could not have "known" we were coming. Physical stuff doesn't "know" anything. The universe does not have a mind. Only that which caused the universe to come into existence could have "known" this, and this entity must have planned it for a purpose. Therefore, simple logic leads me to conclude that the universe was designed and instantiated by a mind that transcends physical reality and is outside of space and time -- a mind of extraordinary creative power that had humanity in mind as a goal -- the ultimate goal as far as we know, because no other living thing has remotely reached humanity's level of comprehension and investigative potential. It is for the reasons mentioned above -- and many more, too numerous to mention -- that I was finally forced to abandon a lifetime of Richard Dawkins-style atheism. I was forced by intellectual and scientific integrity to follow the evidence where it led, no matter how painful. It was painful in the short term, but indescribably rewarding in the long term.GilDodgen
July 30, 2011
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The point. That mathematical singularity that exists in equations of general relativity representing the interface between the natural, (our laws of physics), and the supernatural, (the obliteration of our laws of physics) digs in like a thorn just under the skin of the atheist which they have been digging and scratching at it in a frantic attempt to remove for decades.junkdnaforlife
July 30, 2011
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