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Judge Jones: Towering Intellectual or Narcissistic Putz?

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Judge Jones tours the American countryside seeking the adulation of our intellectual elite and extolling the genius of his Kitzmiller v. Dover decision. The press release below indicates that Jones let the ACLU essentially dictate his decision. Instead of original and impeccable reasoning, Jones uncritically took extensive material from the ACLU’s proposed “findings of fact and conclusions of law” and either copied it directly or modified it ever so slightly. Outside the legal system this is called plagiarism. But since judges are allowed to draw on briefs of the parties, this is called legal scholarship. Even so, courts frown on decisions in which judges extensively copy and paste from other briefs — which is exactly what Jones did! Wired Magazine voted Jones one of the sexiest geeks of 2005. Time characterized him as a legal genius. Truth be told, Jones is a narcissistic putz.

In case you have trouble downloading the Discovery article cited below, i.e., “A Comparison of Judge Jones’ Opinion …”, I’ve uploaded it on the UD server here: www.uncommondescent.com/documentation/Comparing_Jones_and_ACLU.pdf.

“Masterful” Federal Ruling on Intelligent Design Was Copied from ACLU

Seattle — The key section of the widely-noted court decision on intelligent design issued a year ago on December 20 was copied nearly verbatim from a document written by ACLU lawyers, according to a study released today by scholars affiliated with the Discovery Institute. [Go here.]

“Judge John Jones copied verbatim or virtually verbatim 90.9% of his 6,004-word section on whether intelligent design is science from the ACLU’s proposed ‘Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law’ submitted to him nearly a month before his ruling,” said Dr. John West, Vice President for Public Policy and Legal Affairs at Discovery Institute’s Center for Science and Culture.

“Ironically, Judge Jones has been hailed as ‘an outstanding thinker’ for his ‘masterful’ ruling, and even honored by Time magazine as one of the world’s ‘most influential people’ in the category of ‘scientists and thinkers,'” said West. “But Jones’ analysis of the scientific status of intelligent design contains virtually nothing written by Jones himself. This finding seriously undercuts the credibility of a central part of the ruling.”

The study notes that, while judges routinely make use of proposed findings of fact, “the extent to which Judge Jones simply copied the language submitted to him by the ACLU is stunning. For all practical purposes, Jones allowed ACLU attorneys to write nearly the entire section of his opinion analyzing whether intelligent design is science. As a result, this central part of Judge Jones’ ruling reflected essentially no original deliberative activity or independent examination of the record on Jones’ part.”

Jones’ copying was so uncritical that he even reprinted a number of factual errors originally made by ACLU attorneys.

For example, Jones claimed that biochemist Michael Behe, when asked about articles purporting to explain the evolution of the immune system, responded that the articles were “not ‘good enough.'” Behe actually said the exact opposite: “it’s not that they aren’t good enough. It’s simply that they are addressed to a different subject.” Jones’ misrepresentation of Behe came directly from the ACLU’s “Findings of Fact.”

Again copying from the ACLU, Jones insisted that “ID is not supported by any peer-reviewed… publications.” But, in fact, the court record contained evidence of several such publications.

The study, titled “A Comparison of Judge Jones’ Opinion in Kitzmiller v. Dover with Plaintiffs’ Proposed ‘Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law,'” was co-authored by West and law professor David DeWolf and is available from Discovery Institute’s website at www.discovery.org/csc. [For the actual document, go here.]

West noted that “those who thought the Dover decision would end the debate over Darwinian evolution were obviously wrong. That debate is just as vibrant and vigorous as it ever was, and Darwinists know it.” West cited a recent New York Times report about a gathering of scientists at the Salk Institute for Biological Studies in November where there was “a rough consensus” that the theory “of evolution by natural selection” was “losing out in the intellectual marketplace.”

“A year after Dover, it’s the Darwinists who seem filled with gloom, not us,” said West, highlighting several positive developments over the past few months:

***In June, South Carolina adopted a science standard requiring students to learn how “scientists… investigate and critically analyze aspects of evolutionary theory.”

***In September, legal scholar Francis Beckwith, whose support for the constitutionality of intelligent design is well-known, was granted tenure at Baylor University after an effort by Darwinists to deny him tenure backfired.

***At the end of November, the Ouachita Parish School District in Louisiana enacted a policy that protects the academic freedom of teachers to objectively cover scientific criticisms of Darwinian evolution as well as the evidence in favor of the theory.

“As we made clear from the beginning, Discovery Institute opposed the Dover school board policy because attempts to mandate intelligent design are counterproductive,” said West. “At the same time, Darwinist efforts to use the courts to restrict open discussion of evolution offend free speech and academic freedom. We are delighted that the Darwinist attempt to muzzle the debate has failed.”

Discovery Institute is the nation’s leading public policy center that defends the rights of teachers and students to analyze the strengths and weaknesses of Darwinian evolution. The Institute has a national program to defend the rights of scientists, teachers, and students who are being threatened because they dare to raise critical questions about evolution. For more information, visit www.discovery.org/csc.

FOR RELEASE DEC. 12, 2006
Press Contact: Anika Smith
Discovery Institute
(206) 292-0401 x. 155
asmith@discovery.org

###

Comments
bfast asked: Is there a point at which your profession says, “c’mon, judge, think for yourself?” Yes -- whenever you're on the losing side of a case. ;-) Seriously, I think most honest observers of the judicial system are concerned about the ability of trial courts to render fair, comprehensive verdicts given the volume of cases they must handle. There are many proposals for addressing this problem, including increasing funding to hire more judges, using specialized courts or arbitration panels to hear certain types of claims, etc. In post #26, above, Larry Fafarman sites statements that claim that it is seen as “poor practice” to get too heaily into regurgitating the work of others. Could you critique his post Larry cites a portion of a speech given in 1963, which is in turn quoted in a 1964 Supreme Court opinion. The practice has changed significantly since then, in part because of the volume of cases trial courts must handle. The much more recent Supreme Court and Third Circuit cases I cited discuss some of this historical development. The Supreme Court recognized in Bessmer City in 1985 that there is nothing nefarious about adopting a party's proposed findings. The circuit courts, in particular the Third Circuit, generally have followed suit, and it is has long been standard practice. When Larry says, One thing we now know for sure — Judge Jones was falsely given credit for a lot of stuff that he did not write, then, the argument is misplaced. Judge Jones isn't a novelist; he's a trial judge, and the way he drafted his opinion is perfectly appropriate. When Larry then says And Jones did not even bother to check the record to make sure that the ACLU material that he was going to use was factually accurate, I think that also is an unfair argument. The judge believed one side and not the other. That's what happens in trials. DaveScot asks: Is there anything about people being made aware of the details of his proper judicial conduct somehow objectionable? Is there anything in the Discovery press release that’s not accurate or is not something the public has a right to know? To the first question, I would say no, that isn't objectionable at all. It's perfectly appropriate to critique the opinion, including the observation that the court apprently gave no credence to valid arguments raised by the losing side. To the second question, I'd say yes, IMHO there were a number of things in both the December 12 and December 13 DI press releases that were inappropriate, as follows: The December 13, 2006 press release says: "The egregious case of copying text from plaintiffs' attorneys by federal judge John Jones has drawn additional criticism from legal scholars who explain that such copying should be scrutinized and carefully examined." This statement is misleading, in two ways. First, the what Judge Jones did was not "egregious" under the common judicial practice. Second, the Supreme Court in the case I cited has said that factual findings adopted verbatim are subject to the same standard of review as any other finding made under Rule 52(a). Also, this is a less important point, but there's hardly a chorus of "legal scholars" lamenting Judge Jones' opinion. The DI's December 12, 2006 press releaseI says Judge Jones' adoption of the ACLU's proposed findings is "stunning," and further states that "[f]or all practical purposes, Jones allowed ACLU attorneys to write nearly the entire section of his opinion analyzing whether intelligent design is science. As a result, this central part of Judge Jones' ruling reflected essentially no original deliberative activity or independent examination of the record on Jones' part." IMHO, these statements also are unfair and/or misleading. It was not "stunning," nor, according to the U.S. Supreme Court cite I've supplied, would an appellate court presume that Judge Jones engaged in no "original deliberative activity or independent examination of the record." The fallout from the DI press release, I think, illustrates my point. As a result of it, we've had in this thread numerous accusations of plagiarism and judicial misconduct, which are unfounded; I have also received a mass e-mail from a prominent religious right group making similar accusations. All of this hurts the credibility of ID generally and, even more troubling to me, tarnishes the Christian witness of everyone who opposes materialism on specifically Christian grounds.dopderbeck
December 13, 2006
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dopderbeck I’m no Judge Jones apologist. I’ve written extensively on my blog, in a long series of discussions on the ASA web list, and in a letter published in the journal First Things, about why I think Judge Jones went off the rails in holding that ID is not “science.” I'm glad you feel that way because if you read into the second paragraph of the quoted material (my emphasis)
Judge John Jones copied verbatim or virtually verbatim 90.9% of his 6,004-word section on whether intelligent design is science from the ACLU’s proposed ‘Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law’
This is all about his finding of science and who really wrote it. Plagiarism and putzism are just rhetoric. You think those words are too strong. Point taken on the rhetoric. Jones' copying the ACLU science finding verbatim and not advertising the fact that he did is not outside the normal bounds of judicial conduct. Granted. Is there anything about people being made aware of the details of his proper judicial conduct somehow objectionable? Is there anything in the Discovery press release that's not accurate or is not something the public has a right to know?DaveScot
December 13, 2006
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I agree that the "plagiarism" charge is a moot point. It only becomes interesting in light of Jones accepting so much praise for his decision and also his claim that he made up his mind before the rest of the evidence and testimony was given to him (but that's a 2nd hand account of a speech given). Never mind all the other shenanigans that took place.Patrick
December 13, 2006
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Dopderbeck, I once had a judge rule in my favor. In his ruling, he used the language provided by an expert witness as his own. Yet when you read his ruling, 95% of it was his own thought, his own words. Is there a point at which your profession says, "c'mon, judge, think for yourself?" In post #26, above, Larry Fafarman sites statements that claim that it is seen as "poor practice" to get too heaily into regurgitating the work of others. Could you critique his post, especially the part preceeding "One thing we now know for sure — Judge Jones was ... "?bFast
December 13, 2006
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DaveScot said: Plagiarism is as plagiarism does. By another name it stinks the same. Dave, even the Discovery Institute disagrees with you on this one. In a letter intended to reign in an organisation touting the "plagiarism" line, the DI said: "Indeed, judges routinely invite lawyers to propose findings of fact in order to verify what the lawyers believe to be the key factual issues in the case. Thus, in legal circles Judge Jones’ use of the ACLU’s proposed “Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law” would not be considered “plagiarism” nor a violation of judicial ethics. " Dave, you are just dead wrong here. Own up to it. DaveScot also said: Your distress as a Jones apologist is telling and well warranted. I'm no Judge Jones apologist. I've written extensively on my blog, in a long series of discussions on the ASA web list, and in a letter published in the journal First Things, about why I think Judge Jones went off the rails in holding that ID is not "science." Google me in the context of "Judge Jones" and you'll find those references (I won't link them here so I don't get accused of trolling). You'll also see that I took lots of heat on a law school blog for criticizing Jones. Research before you accuse. That said, two wrongs don't make things right. Accusing Judge Jones of plagiarism or other unethical conduct is wrong.dopderbeck
December 13, 2006
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"Hooligans" is no longer with us. We fail to impress him and he fails to impress us. DaveScot
December 13, 2006
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dopderbeck Plagiarism is as plagiarism does. By another name it stinks the same. You seem to be distressed at the notion that people be allowed to learn the facts and render their own judgment about the ethical nature of it in this case. Your distress as a Jones apologist is telling and well warranted. People not already enamored by Jones won't tend to view it in a positive light. Fence sitters will definitely be swayed into a negative opinion of Jones by it. That's just how the cookie crumbles. Deal with it.DaveScot
December 13, 2006
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i have a question. Why would Judge Jone's ruling galvanize Christians? Since he did cut and paste a lot of it, does this mean that it will galvanize Christians even more?Fross
December 13, 2006
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Larry, 326. Board members ensured that the teaching of evolution at Dover High School would be limited to propositions that did not conflict with their religious beliefs, and prevented the teaching of key aspects of the theory that did conflict with their religious beliefs, such as macroevolution, speciation, and common ancestry.
# 233. During the October 18, 2004 meeting, the following language was added to the Board Curriculum Committee's recommended curriculum change: "Note: Origins of Life is Not Taught." From the Board's perspective, this change made it district policy that teachers were not permitted to teach major aspects of evolution, including macroevolution, speciation, and common ancestry, including that humans share common ancestors with other living creatures. 29:121-23 (Buckingham); Buckingham Dep. (3/31/05) at 71, 74; Bonsell Dep. (4/13/05) at 67-69.
You disagree with the testimony cited when Bickingham says "origins of life were taught to the point that yes, that man descended from monkeys"? Or how about:
Q. But the words, when it says origins of life, I guesses that the only point I want to clarify with you, is that that means, that's a reference to specifically the concept that one, that any species originated or began with a previous species, right? Common ancestor, right? A. Yes.
From: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dover/day16am2.html#day16am739franky172
December 13, 2006
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Since I posted yesterday, I have observed, with great interest your responses. It just goes to show you that, outside of name-calling, ID is completely bereft of any substantial scientific weight. Here at UD, the weblog of Dr. Dembski (sorry about the Mr thing), a leader in the research behind ID, we see name calling and a litany of copied articles from newspapers that back up ID. Wow, to say the least, I am not impressed. Additionally, based on my reading of your responses, Jesus would have resorted to calling when an impartial judge did something completely legal. By the way, didn’t the DI also provide for the Judge their Findings of Fact? Why yes they did! I guess the judge didn’t find them convincing enough to include them. To me, you sound a little sore at losing this trial, and when the DI whines about a common practice in courtrooms all over America, you know they are desperate.hooligans
December 13, 2006
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Some of the "findings of fact" in the final briefs of the plaintiffs are really off the deep end, even for Darwinist crackpots. For example, here are two:
314. Intelligent design is not only religious, it is sectarian. It promotes the particular religious views held by some but not all believers in Christianity. - - - - - - - - 326. Board members ensured that the teaching of evolution at Dover High School would be limited to propositions that did not conflict with their religious beliefs, and prevented the teaching of key aspects of the theory that did conflict with their religious beliefs, such as macroevolution, speciation, and common ancestry.
-- from http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dover/pf2.html#p455 That Judge Jones would just mindlessly copy and paste statements from such a brief without checking them for factual accuracy is the height of irresponsibility. Also, I strongly suspect that the Dover opinion has no quotes from the defendants' final briefs. Jones should have quoted something from those briefs, if for no other reason than to show that he at least looked at them.Larry Fafarman
December 13, 2006
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To show y'all that I'm not just making up my position on "plagiarism," I here is a quote from the U.S. Supreme Court on this very issue: "even when the trial judge adopts proposed findings verbatim, the findings are those of the court and may be reversed only if clearly erroneous. " Anderson v. City of Bessmer City, 105 S.Ct. 1504 (1985). The Third Circuit, the circuit in which Judge Jones sits, also specifically recognizes that a trial court can adopt a party's proposed findings verbatim. See Landsford-Coaldale Joint Water Authority v. Tonolli Corp., 4 F.3d 1209, 1215 (1993)(stating, "[w]e similarly reject the [plaintiff's] argument that the district court's verbatim adoption of many of [the defendant's]proposed factual findings contravened the purposes of Fed.R.Civ.P. 52(a) such that they do not warrant review under the clearly erroneous standard. This argument has been rejected by the Supreme Court....") Will those who have been trying to make political hay out of this aspect of Judge Jones' opinion now acknowledge that they are wrong on this point?dopderbeck
December 13, 2006
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Joseph, "And I believe he did that because he knew the school board didn’t have a clue to what ID was, had religious motivations and acted deceptively." There may be truth in the statement, "he knew the school board didn’t have a clue to what ID was, had religious motivations and acted deceptively." I don't know. However, I still think you give judge Jones too much credit. If this were the case, he would have composed a finding that didn't reject ID with a broad brush; but would have focused tightly on the evidence for motivaton on the part of the school board.bFast
December 13, 2006
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56. Raging Bee said,
"That's because the plaintiff's (not the judge) used the fact that ID was bad science to prove that it was, in fact, NOTHING MORE than a religious belief badly disguised as science."
ID makes no assumption that a deity is the designer. Even if you infer that, ID is not religion, since religion is defined as a set of dogmas, rituals, and beliefs, backed by a belief in a 'deity'. A common definiton of religion is, " A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader." These definitions are fairly specific, and are the most widely given by lexicon sources, but the most general description you'll find is, "Belief and reverence of a supernatural power or powers ... " Nowhere in ID proposals does it stipulate that the interventionary agent is supernatural or divine, or that it is existent today, or that, if existent, it is to be revered, all necessary tenets of a religion. The fact that there is an implication of a divine deity is irrelevant. Raging Bee continued,
"And the quickest proof that ID really is a religious doctrine can be found in an early draft of "Pandas:" anyone here remember the famous phrase "cdesign proponentsists?" Think about that before you complain about 'plagerism.'"
What is the relevance of a 'typo' in Pandas and People? The fact that authors Davis and Kenyon substituted the words 'intelligent design' for 'creation' in later editions, or the fact that they espouse a belief in ID does not make them spokesmen for the ID movement. So what's the point? Lee Bowmanleebowman
December 13, 2006
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However I believe an open discussion of past follies are key to being prepared for the next time. Raging Bee: That’s funny — there’s nothing in your “open discussion” about actual scientific work supporting ID or disproving evolution. There is actual scientific work supporting ID. And disproving evolution is NOT what ID is about. (evolution has several meanings) Raging Bee: Seems to me that’s where a discussion of “past follies” would start. I prefer to keep my discussions "in context". The context of this thread is the past folly of Judge Jones' decision and how to make sure, or try to, that it isn't repeated. Make it clear that ID proceeds as if the Torah, Bible and Qu’ran don’t even exist… Raging Bee: Y’all have been talking about ID for DECADES; so why do you have to make this clear now? Because people like you exist. People who, when there hear "ID" automatically think "religion" regardless of what reality demonstrates. …even though their mere existence constitutes evidence. Raging Bee: Oops, you did it again. IF ID is science, then it shouldn’t have to even consider religious texts as “evidence” — this is science, not religion, remember? Man that is twisted. Those books are evidence regardless of ID. Also those books can be viewed as historical and philosophical documents. People just formed their respective religion around them.Joseph
December 13, 2006
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DaveScot, quoting the Encarta Encyclopedia, said: Another lawyer to tries to argue this isn’t plagiarism. How quaint. Dave, the problem with your quote from Encarta here is that trial judges don't claim that their opinions are "original" in the sense that a journalist or schoalar does. Trial judges are supposed to recite in their opinions the evidence presented at trial. That is their job. It isn't plagiarism. You may think the common law legal system is "quaint," but it has worked this way for centuries. Please, if you're going to criticize the way judges do their jobs, at least try to understand what they do, rather than cuttting and pasting irrelevant Encarta definitions. Some folks have dickered about whether the ACLU's proposed findings of fact were presented before or after trial. It doesn't matter. It is common practice in many federal courts for the parties to present detailed proposed findings of fact and conclusions of law before trial. This is one way in which federal trial courts manage their dockets -- this practice helps weed out issues on which a trial is not really necessary either because the parties essentially agree or because an issue a party wants to raise is irrelevant to the claims asserted. It also is common practice for judges to request additional submissions after trial, depending on the testimony and evidence actually adduced at trial. Finally, it is common practice for trial judges to adopt language from a party's submission in whole or in part when framing a written opinion. As far as I can tell, based on 13 years of experience litigating in the federal courts, absolutely nothing Judge Jones did in writing this opinion can fairly be called unethical or nefarious. This is an unfair, uninformed criticism. Others have suggested Judge Jones got the facts wrong. That may well be the case. It is fair to criticize the accuracy of a court's factual findings if they are not supported by the record. Still others (including me, in other places) have criticized Judge Jones' effort to define what "science" means. That, again, is a fair criticism based on the issues that were actually before the court and the proper role of judges. The suggestion that it was inherently improper for the trial judge to use a party's proposed findings of fact, however, is simply wrong.dopderbeck
December 13, 2006
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I'm beginning to find you tiresome, Raing Bee. Goodbye. --WmADWilliam Dembski
December 13, 2006
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Counting down the seconds until Raging Bee is banned for being a troll by an ID proponent who just happens to be an agnostic...ironic, eh? We'll support controversy, just not idiocy.Patrick
December 13, 2006
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Joseph wrote: However I believe an open discussion of past follies are key to being prepared for the next time. That's funny -- there's nothing in your "open discussion" about actual scientific work supporting ID or disproving evolution. Seems to me that's where a discussion of "past follies" would start. Make it clear that ID proceeds as if the Torah, Bible and Qu’ran don’t even exist... Y'all have been talking about ID for DECADES; so why do you have to make this clear now? Could it be because ID is, and always has been, based on those religious texts? ...even though their mere existence constitutes evidence. Oops, you did it again. IF ID is science, then it shouldn't have to even consider religious texts as "evidence" -- this is science, not religion, remember?Raging Bee
December 13, 2006
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idnet.com.au said, "By the way, we in Australia have almost the exact wording about establishing religion yet our government financially supports religious schools, and the teaching of ID or religion for that matter, is allowed and even funded in public schools. Funny how the meaning of specific law speciates through geographical isolation. This proves unintelligent evolution is true." Thank you! And this is how our system of government should work as well mate. There is no such thing as "seperation of church and state" in our constitution. It is one BIG FAT LIE! Our society caved in to politically correct atheism. So now you have Chritians paying taxes for a system that does not represent them fairly in government. Therefore We the People are no longer Self Governed. But they are ruled over by ACLU and a few Judicial systems. Why they ever bought into it I do not know. But as a child raised in the secular system, I was taught no different. In fact, I was LIED to because of Judicial decisions forced onto me by Communist inspired organizations like the ACLU. You would think that All Christians would see this and fight it. We have a right to demand how our tax dollars are spent. Judges, lawyers and the Federal Government Serves We the People, not the other way around.Michaels7
December 13, 2006
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Dave, Please don't get me started on wordly definitions..., I noticed how this past week, Theist Evolutionist can find all things wrong with ID, IDers, YECs, but not say one single word against Krause and the conference by NAS in recent post. They routinely "disparage" IDers, and YECS, but not the atheist scientist who mocked and scoffed @ Christians. Not one single word to defend the 15% of Christians, nor to demand apology by fellow atheist scientist for their attacks of comparison of pedophiles to Christians. re: plagerize and peers who try to fit in. You see, it is not "plagerizing" as long as the ACLU does not care and other Judges and lawyers do it too. Judges must save time afterall and should not bother to read, spellcheck, nor fact check what the lawyers hand to them in a ruling decision. Its all "part of the game" you see. They all met up I'm sure after the decision over cocktails, cigars and schmoooooozed with each other. Laughing, mocking and jestering how yet again with money from the likes of George Soros, they Bamboozled innocent everyday people trying to make a difference in their childrens lives who wanted to offer serious alternatives of discussion to their children. Not that paying taxes means anything at all about the rights of citizens these days. Eventually I am sure the Judge asked the ACLU how their case with NAMBLA is going and if they could use any help! But you know, guilt by association is only a one-way street. Only pedophile, Republicans and Christian Scientist can be connected. Not ACLU, Democrat Atheist Scientist. No, they take a much higher road based upon the truth of materialism. That is how and why plagiarism is redefined today. Therefore good is evil and evil is good.Michaels7
December 13, 2006
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Raging Bee: That’s because the plaintiffs (not the judge) used the fact that ID was bad science to prove that it was, in fact, a NOTHING MORE than a religious belief badly disguised as science. Reality tells us the plaintiffs erected a strawman, sold it to the judge, who bought it, then destroyed that starwman in front of him. The judge, thinking the strawman was ID, then over-stepped the boudary of this case to make a sweeping ruling that was irrelevant to the case he heard. If the judge had REALLY wanted the facts about "Pandas" he would have allowed the publishers to enter the case. Or at least he would have considered their brief. As it is he listened to only what the ID critics had to say about ID, accepted a bluff as actual evidence and discarded everything the ID experts said about ID. And I believe he did that because he knew the school board didn't have a clue to what ID was, had religious motivations and acted deceptively. However the same can be said about the plaintiffs' witnesses.Joseph
December 13, 2006
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BJ said something earlier about whining and being prepared for the next time. However I believe an open discussion of past follies are key to being prepared for the next time. For example we now know not just appear to target evolution. This is easily done as we all know the design inference extends beyond biology. Make it clear that ID proceeds as if the Torah, Bible and Qu'ran don't even exist- even though their mere existence constitutes evidence. IOW don't conflate any inferences derived from the theory with the theory itself. Basically keep the following in mind:
“(A) decision respecting the subject matter to be taught in public schools does not violate the Establishment Clause simply because the material to be taught ‘happens to coincide or harmonize with the tenets of some or all religions’" Justice Lewis Powell in his concurrence to Edwards v. Aguillard
So we take a page right from Southern California- all incoming high school freshman are to assemble and watch two pro-ID videos- "The Privileged Planet" and "Unlocking the Mytery of Life". Following which Andrea Bottaro's rebuttal* will be read along with a pro-ID response (in-process but anyone can jump in). Then get on with the school year but ALLOW open discussions of the data presented. If some wants to argue that Stonehenge is a formation due to stochastic processes- allow them to make their case. "Turtles all the way down...", make your case. Living organisms are the result of the random mixing of elements, compounds and lightning strikes- make your case. By allowing them to make their case they may see for themselves, which is the first step to developing critical thinking skills. * the only real way to rebut the contents of either video and actually demonstrate our existence is the result of sheer-dumb-luck. Mere blather and finger-pointing will not 'git-r-dun'...Joseph
December 13, 2006
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The judge should have ignored the matter of bad or good science because that was irrelevant to the case. Instead he turned that into the centerpiece of his opinion. That's because the plaintiffs (not the judge) used the fact that ID was bad science to prove that it was, in fact, a NOTHING MORE than a religious belief badly disguised as science. If ID had been proven to be real science, then its religious origins would have been irrelevant. And the quickest proof that ID really is a religious doctrine can be found in an early draft of "Pandas:" anyone here remember the famous phrase "cdesign proponentsists?" Think about that before you complain about "plagirism." The judge copied factual errors made by the ACLU, those errors are spelled out. Where? Given the utterly idiotic hysterical hyperbole I've seen about the ACLU from places like this, the above statement lacks credibility.Raging Bee
December 13, 2006
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It’s simple. The defense had to argue that ID was not religion, that’s all. The other side had to argue that ID was religion, that’s all. The claim that ID was not science or that is was bad science was irrelevant. Actually, according to my understanding of the Lemon test, an act must pass three tests to ensure that it does not violate the establishment clause: 1. It must have secular legislative purpose. 2. It's effect must not inhibit or advance religion and 3. There must be no "excessive entanglement" with religion (whatever that means). Obviously for the purposes of the 1st part of the Lemon test, declaring ID to be "science" enables the act of the school board to have secular legislative purpose and thus pass the first part of the Lemon test. I believe this is why the Thomas Moore Law Center, ACLU, and Jones all believed this was paramount to the case. Certainly the Thomas Moore Law Center could have taken some other route and suggested that the secular legislative purpose of the school board was some other pressing need, but what?franky172
December 13, 2006
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doperbeck: Trial judges routinely use portions of the proposed findings of fact and conclusions of law submitted by the parties — it is exactly why the parties are asked to submit them. One has to wonder what facts can be found in Judge Jones' ruling. One fact I found was that he is still clue-less as to what ID is.Joseph
December 13, 2006
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“Long live the American legal system, that also found OJ was innocent.” LOL! Yes that’s an excellent point. JJ recites ACLU talking points and OJ goes free after murdering two people. I just can’t wait until jury duty time.shaner74
December 13, 2006
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avocationist said ( Dec 13th 2006 at 2:33 am ) --
The more I learn about how the legal system works, the less I respect it. The copying and pasting might be fine enough, but it came from documents presented a month before the evidence was presented.
Not true -- the copying and pasting came from documents presented after the end of courtroom testimony. An example is the following document -- http://www2.ncseweb.org/kvd/all_legal/2005-11-23_post-trial_FoF/2005-11-23_Ps_FoF_CoL_04cv2688-334.pdf -- the same document in html format is at -- http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dover/pf.html
I think he should be disbarred, or impeached.
I'll drink to that (attorneys are disbarred, federal judges are impeached).Larry Fafarman
December 13, 2006
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chunkdz, "Brood of vipers, narcissistic putz, what’s the difference?" A little less than 2000 years.Douglas
December 13, 2006
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dopderbeck Another lawyer to tries to argue this isn't plagiarism. How quaint. http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861726620/plagiarize.html
plagiarize Definition: copy something from other person's work: to copy another person's idea or written work and claim it as original
Which part of the definition don't you understand?DaveScot
December 13, 2006
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