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Cocktails! falsifying Darwinism via falsifying the geological “column”

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There is the forgotten book Shattering the Myths of Darwinism written by a non-creationist agnostic Richard Milton. Milton expressed his skepticism of mainstream claims of the old-age of the fossil record. His work further motivated me toward the idea that there could an empirically driven critique of the accepted ages of the fossils.

This is a short bio of Milton:

Richard Milton is a science journalist and design engineer based in London. He is a member of Mensa, the international high-IQ society, and writes a column for Mensa Magazine. He has been a member of the Geologists’ Association for twenty years, and did extensive geological research for this book. He has been featured on the BBC, NBC, and other television networks.

Like the agnostic Denton, Milton seems to draw much admiration from creationists.

The fact Milton was an agnostic suggested to me that considerations of facts and following the evidence wherever it leads might lead one to a different conclusion than the accepted mainstream view of fossil ages. One does not have to begin with the premise of YEC to conclude that the claims of the old ages of fossils have serious empirical difficulties.

But what about radiometric dating? That serious issue will be covered in another post, but suffice to say, on evidential grounds alone, it seems there are serious unresolved conflicts. If physics and chemistry are invoked to defend the old ages of fossils, physics and chemistry can also be invoked to falsify it. Neither side, creationist or evolutionist, has a conflict-free model of history. But that is not to say that one side might not prevail on empirical grounds eventually in the light of future scientific discoveries.

My aim then is not to argue that the accepted mainstream model of the history of life is definitely wrong, but rather it can’t be definitely right given what we already know. Skepticism is in order, and thankfully it doesn’t stop there, skepticism might lead to novel, innovative research to settle the conflicts.

We have the conceptual notion of a geological “column”. The idea is that if you dig a hole, you are essentially traversing down a conceptual column that provides a recorded history of life. Conceptually this is depicted in the following image:

geological column

In such a column, older fossils are buried beneath younger fossils. Even supposing this is a reasonable interpretation, it does not immediately affix the ages of the fossils. One fossil may be older than another, but it doesn’t immediately tell us that the oldest fossils are 500 million years old! So for the sake of argument, let us assume that on average deeper means older, what can we say about the oldest layer based on empirical considerations?

When I asked a geologist common sense questions about the process of fossilization, he threw a fit. I asked “how are fossils fossilized?” I pointed out if you leave a dead organism out in the open it decomposes or is eaten by scavengers. So really good fossilization can’t happen by ordinary processes but rather by catastrophic process such as rapid burial, and often a burial that involves water. He threw a fit at the suggestion but reluctantly conceded that to get really good fossils, one needs water and rapid burial. He didn’t like where the discussion seemed to be headed. 🙂

Here are the boring considerations. Suppose we have intact geological column which can be found in one location such that you get to dig and find fossils in the order prescribed by the diagram above (and there are some who argue there is no such place on Earth, only in the conceptual imaginations of paleontologists). Suppose we give a generous height to this column of 200 miles spanning a history of 500 million years, what would be the average rate of deposition (accumulation of sediments on top of each other). I calculated that it would be .667 millimeters a year.

The geologist then fumed at my figure of a 200-mile deep geological column and argued it could be less than that. Of course, he didn’t realize he actually strengthened my argument. So I said, “fine, 14 miles, since that’s the farthest man has ever drilled into the Earth, that yields a deposition rate of .046 millimeters a year,” which is about half the thickness of a sheet of paper. That would mean a dinosaur that is lying 5 meters high will take about 100,000 years to bury, and thus it becomes very doubtful that it will fossilize because it is exposed to scavengers and decomposition and other environmental effects.

From Darwin-loving pages of Wiki we read:

Fossilization processes proceed differently according to tissue type and external conditions.

Permineralization is a process of fossilization that occurs when an organism is buried. The empty spaces within an organism (spaces filled with liquid or gas during life) become filled with mineral-rich groundwater. Minerals precipitate from the groundwater, occupying the empty spaces. This process can occur in very small spaces, such as within the cell wall of a plant cell. Small scale permineralization can produce very detailed fossils. For permineralization to occur, the organism must become covered by sediment soon after death or soon after the initial decay process. The degree to which the remains are decayed when covered determines the later details of the fossil. Some fossils consist only of skeletal remains or teeth; other fossils contain traces of skin, feathers or even soft tissues.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil

What? The organism needs to buried with sediments and water quickly. Of note, many layers of the geological “column” indicated mass extinction events, such that it could also be interpreted to be rapid simultaneous burial over large geographical regions by water and sediments, if not rapid simultaneous burial over the entire globe! But whatever the details, the fact remains that large sections of the geological column that contain fossils, could not, even in principle be assembled over millions of years. At best we have one catastrophe that creates a bed of fossils followed by a long era of stasis (no activity) and then followed another catastrophe, etc.

The geologist fumed, and said something to the effect, “You’re analysis is silly. Deposition doesn’t happen at steady rates like you imply.” Of course he was fuming so badly, he didn’t realize he was making my point, namely most of the fossil rich geological column didn’t take hundreds of millions of years to form. 🙂 Steady deposition could not have created the fossil record even in principle and even as Darwin and Lyell supposed. At best we have layers created by catastrophes, and then long periods of stasis in between. The bottom line is, the formation of most of the fossil layers of “column” could not have taken place over millions of years even in principle. We have to imagine the long periods of stasis are actually represented, because the fossil layers themselves must have formed in a few years if not a few minutes!

For the Darwinian story to hold, one has to fortuitously interleave highly fotuitous catastrophes followed by long eras of stasis and do this for each of the layers.

Recording of geological history via a process of slow, steady change is represented by a school of thought known as uniformitarianism (founded by Lyell). In contrast, recording of geological history by a process of catastrophes is known as catastrophism. The recording process for the fossil layers based on the considerations above, is then mostly the product of catastrophes. This catastrophist school of thought was highly anti-Darwinian:

Lyell encapsulated his philosophy in a doctrine later called “uniformitarianism”—a complex set of beliefs centered on the catechism that “the present is the key to the past.”….Lyell viewed this principle as a methodological reform to eliminate fanciful (and quasi-theological) “catastrophic” causes and to render the full magnitude of past change by the slow and steady accumulation of ordinary small changes (deposition and erosion grain by grain) extended over vast times.

And yet, from two different standpoints (theoretical and empirical), Lyell’s credo makes little sense, and its status as dogma can only reflect our social and psychological preferences. First, what is the probability that our tiny slice of observable time should include the full range of potential processes that might alter the earth? What about big, but perfectly natural, events that occur so infrequently that we have only a remote chance of observing even one occurrence in historical time? Second, how can Lyellian gradualism account for the fundamental fact of paleontology–extensive, and appparently rapid, faunal turnovers (“mass extinctions”) occurring several times in the history of life? (Traditional explanations over at least a few million years and attributing them to over intensification of ordinary causes–changes in temperature and sea level, for example–but the arguments have always seemed forced.)

Yet, until recently, extinction received much less attention than its obvious prominence warranted. In an overly Darwinian world of adaptation, gradual change, and improvement, extinction seemed, well, so negative–the ultimate failure, the flip side of evolution’s “real” work, something to be acknowledge but not intensely discussed in polite company.

This odd neglect has been reversed in the last decade…the primary architect of this shift is my brilliant colleague David M. Raup….Dave Raup is the best of the best.

Stephen J. Gould
Bad Genes or Bad Luck by David Raup

Amen brother Gould!

But that is not the end of problems, only the beginning. We have the paradoxical situation where the fossil record accumulates, but then this must happen against the contrary forces of erosion. Thus, the fossil record must:
1. fortuitously form one fossil layer via a fortuitous catastrophe
2. have that layer separated from the layer above it by a long era of stasis (no activity)
3. then another fortuitous catastrophe creates the next layer
4. etc.

All this must happen while miraculously avoiding the problem of erosion. This leads to a mechanical contradiction. Is this contradiction resolved? No, just obfuscated away and swept under the rug and defended by ridicule of those who would dare to ask common sense questions.

Ariel Roth of Geoscience Research points out that reasonable estimates of erosion rates of 6 centimeters/1000 year would wipe out not only the geological “column” but even the continents above sea level in short order.

By noting the rates at which the surfaces of the continents are eroded and carried away by rivers to the oceans (see section 2 for specific values), one can calculate the length of time required to remove a given thickness of the continents. Judson and Ritter (1964) have estimated that for the United States the rate of erosion averages 6.1 cm/1000 years. At this rate of denudation the continents, which average 623 m above sea level, would be eroded to sea level in a mere 10.2 Ma [million years]
….
It has been suggested that mountains still exist because they are constantly being renewed by uplift from below. However, this process of uplift could not go through even one complete cycle of erosion and uplift without eradicating the layers of the geologic column found in them. Present erosion rates would tend to rapidly eradicate evidence of older sediments; yet these sediments are still very well-represented, both in mountains and elsewhere.
….
There is little question that there is some difficulty in reconciling present erosion rates with standard geochronology.

On top of that, why aren’t the oceans saturated solutions of salt and minerals? If rain has been pouring on land and pumping salt and other minerals into the oceans, why aren’t they saturated? That complication may be resolvable, but one does not get the feeling the questions are even welcome, much less attempts at resolution.

When I’ve asked geologists, PandasThumbsters about these difficulties, I get just get rude rebuffs. I think to myself, “if not for my sake, won’t they want to answer these questions for the sake of curious aspiring Darwinists?”. Maybe they won’t answer these questions because they have none.

NOTES:
1. The title contains the word: “Cocktail” to emphasize the speculative, informal nature of this essay. I elaborate more about the relevance of such topics to ID in The relevance of YEC to ID

2. here is the link to Ariel Roth’s paper:
http://www.grisda.org/origins/13064.htm

and a long excerpt

By noting the rates at which the surfaces of the continents are eroded and carried away by rivers to the oceans (see section 2 for specific values), one can calculate the length of time required to remove a given thickness of the continents. Judson and Ritter (1964) have estimated that for the United States the rate of erosion averages 6.1 cm/1000 years. At this rate of denudation the continents, which average 623 m above sea level, would be eroded to sea level in a mere 10.2 Ma. In other words, at this rate the present continents would be eroded over 340 times in the 3500 Ma assumed for the age of the continents. The observation by the famous geologist Powell that “mountains cannot long remain mountains” certainly seems appropriate. The estimate of 10 Ma given above has been a well-accepted figure (Schumm 1963) and has subsequently been referred to in a number of publications including Dott and Batten (1971, p. 136) and Garrels and Mackenzie (1971, pp. 114-115). Earlier, Dole and Stabler (1909) gave figures indicating that it would take about twice as long. Judson (1968), while correcting for human activity, suggests 34 Ma for complete erosion of the continents. None of these figures does much to alleviate the discrepancy which is especially significant when one considers mountain ranges such as the Caledonides of western Europe and the Appalachians of North America which are assumed to be several hundred Ma old. Why are these ranges here today if they are so old?
Rates of erosion are greater in high mountains and lower in regions of less relief (Ahnert 1970, Bloom 1971, Ruxton and McDougall 1967, and Schumm 1963). Ruxton and McDougall (1967) report erosion rates of 8 cm/1000 years near sea level and 52 cm/1000 years at an altitude of 975 m in the Hydrographers Range in Papua. Rates of 92 cm/1000 years are reported for the Guatemala-Mexico Border Mountains (Corbel 1959), 100 cm/1000 years for the Himalayas (Menard 1961), and in the Mt. Rainier region of Washington Mills (1976) documents erosion rates of up to 800 cm/1000 years. Probably the highest recorded regional rate is 1900 cm/1000 years from a volcano in New Guinea (Ollier and Brown 1971).
It has been suggested that mountains still exist because they are constantly being renewed by uplift from below. However, this process of uplift could not go through even one complete cycle of erosion and uplift without eradicating the layers of the geologic column found in them. Present erosion rates would tend to rapidly eradicate evidence of older sediments; yet these sediments are still very well-represented, both in mountains and elsewhere.
Other attempts to reconcile average present erosion rates to geologic time include suggestions that man’s activities, especially agricultural practices, have increased the rate of erosion, making present rates uncharacteristically rapid. Such an explanation seems inadequate to account for a several hundred-fold discrepancy. Gilluly et al. (1968, p. 79) propose that farming may have increased average erosion rates by a factor of less than 2, while Judson (1968) suggests about 2½ times. Others have suggested that the climate of the past may have been more dry or the relief flatter, resulting in slower erosion rates. We now have some interior basins such as central Australia where there is no drainage and no removal of sediment, but these are exceptions. The lush vegetation evident in significant sections of the fossil record suggests at least some wetter conditions in the past. Characteristically, current erosion rates in hot, dry lowlands with gradients 0.001 or less, are not sufficiently slower. Corbel (1959) indicates rates of 1.2 cm/1000 years for the hot dry plains of the Mediterranean region and New Mexico. The lowest rates found in a study of 20 river basins (Ahnert 1970) was 1.6 cm/1000 years for basins in Texas and England. These slower rates do not solve a discrepancy of several hundred-fold, and one would have to postulate different past conditions for a major area of the earth during a significant proportion of earth history to provide a resolution to the problem.
A different context can serve to emphasize the question of rates of erosion. If it is assumed that 2.5 km of continents have been eroded in the past (our present continents average about one fourth that thickness above sea level) and if it is assumed that erosion proceeds at the rate of 3 cm/1000 years (half of the presently observed rate to correct for the effects of modern agricultural pursuits), then it would take about 83 Ma to erode a 2.5 km thickness of continental crust. In other words, at present rates of erosion, continents 2.5 km thick could have been eroded 42 times during the assumed 3500 Ma age for the continents, or continents 106 km thick would have been eroded once. There is little question that there is some difficulty in reconciling present erosion rates with standard geochronology.

Comments
correction: as the materialists does not MIND appealing to a non-local, beyond space and time cause, to explain finding massive amounts of quantum entanglement within molecular biologybornagain77
May 30, 2013
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Well yes do think he pulled a Cameron Diaz. But despite that I still think this forum could use more respect from both sides.JoeCoder
May 30, 2013
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Well JoeCoder, as long as the materialists does not appealing to a non-local, beyond space and time cause, to explain finding massive amounts of quantum entanglement within molecular biology, then I guess you could be right about it presenting no problem for materialists. :) Looking Beyond Space and Time to Cope With Quantum Theory - (Oct. 28, 2012) Excerpt: To derive their inequality, which sets up a measurement of entanglement between four particles, the researchers considered what behaviours are possible for four particles that are connected by influences that stay hidden and that travel at some arbitrary finite speed. Mathematically (and mind-bogglingly), these constraints define an 80-dimensional object. The testable hidden influence inequality is the boundary of the shadow this 80-dimensional shape casts in 44 dimensions. The researchers showed that quantum predictions can lie outside this boundary, which means they are going against one of the assumptions. Outside the boundary, either the influences can't stay hidden, or they must have infinite speed.,,, The remaining option is to accept that (quantum) influences must be infinitely fast,,, "Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them," says Nicolas Gisin, Professor at the University of Geneva, Switzerland,,, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/10/121028142217.htm Quantum Information/Entanglement In DNA - Elisabeth Rieper - short video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5936605/ Quantum entanglement between the electron clouds of nucleic acids in DNA - Elisabeth Rieper, Janet Anders and Vlatko Vedral - February 2011 http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/1006/1006.4053v2.pdfbornagain77
May 30, 2013
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correction: I think he may be serious in his statement about the miracle of his gestation from a single CELL being proof of evolutionbornagain77
May 30, 2013
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JoeCoder, but alas, I think he may be serious in his statement about the miracle of his gestation from a single being proof of evolution, he has no less than Cameron Diaz backing him up on that score:: but note the new proof of Darwinian evolution she (Diaz) offers: the fact that a baby grows up into an adult. As she explains this, Dr. Krauss is nodding his head vigorously in apparent agreement and other participants on the stage, who are all men -- including Dawkins and novelists Ian McEwan and Cormac McCarthy -- listen with rapt attentiveness. You see, it's really true that nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution, including pediatrics. And we have this now on the authority of Miss Diaz. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/05/cameron_diaz_gi071881.html on the flip side of that flippant comment: FLIGHT: The Genius of Birds - Embryonic development - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ah-gT0hTto A Piece from the Developmental Symphony - February 2012 Excerpt: Embryonic development is an astounding process that seems to happen "automatically.",,, The timing of each step is too precise and the complexity is too intricate to assume that these processes are the mere accumulation by happenstance of changes to regulatory genes. Each gene plays its role at a certain time, and like a symphony, each is activated and silenced in turn such that the final result is a grand performance of orchestrated effort that could only have occurred through design. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/02/a_piece_from_th055921.html The Miracle of Development Part 1 - Origins with Dr. Paul A. Nelson - video - April 2013 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JD9qMvz6T90bornagain77
May 30, 2013
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@BA77 I don't see how the photon study shows a conflict with materialistic naturalism? They say "the quantum world is in conflict with our everyday experience", but does't that just mean that small things behave differently than big things?JoeCoder
May 30, 2013
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"I nominate it for the Absurd Comment of the Year award." "This is simply insane for you to do so."
Let's not be too hard on our critics, lest we run them all off and have nobody left to debate. JLAfan2001 seems to be seeking out answers in an honest and genuine manner.JoeCoder
May 30, 2013
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to be more specific to this question: "what else have you got to debunk materialism?" Quantum Mechanics, specifically Quantum Teleportation and Quantum Entanglement. Here's one recent experiment where they closed the last loop hole that materialists were clinging to:
Zeilinger Group - Photons run out of loopholes - April 15, 2013 Excerpt: A team led by the Austrian physicist Anton Zeilinger has now carried out an experiment with photons, in which they have closed an important loophole. The researchers have thus provided the most complete experimental proof that the quantum world is in conflict with our everyday experience.,,, The young academics in Anton Zeilinger’s group,, have now achieved an important step towards delivering definitive experimental evidence that quantum particles can indeed do things that classical physics does not allow them to do. For their experiment, the team built one of the best sources for entangled photon pairs worldwide and employed highly efficient photon detectors designed by experts at NIST. These technological advances together with a suitable measurement protocol enabled the researchers to detect entangled photons with unprecedented efficiency. In a nutshell: "Our photons can no longer duck out of being measured," says Zeilinger. This kind of tight monitoring is important as it closes an important loophole. In previous experiments on photons, there has always been the possibility that although the measured photons do violate the laws of classical physics, such non-classical behaviour would not have been observed if all photons involved in the experiment could have been measured. In the new experiment, this loophole is now closed. "Perhaps the greatest weakness of photons as a platform for quantum experiments is their vulnerability to loss – but we have just demonstrated that this weakness need not be prohibitive," explains Marissa Giustina, lead author of the paper. http://vcq.quantum.at/research/research-groups/zeilinger-group/news/details/419.html
bornagain77
May 30, 2013
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JLAfan2001 you state:
I(f) Genesis is not true, what else have you got to debunk materialism?
JLAfan2001, the issue is not Biblical interpretation of Geneisis, (and I'm sure their are many people, here on UD and elsewhere, that can run circles around me and you both on that score), but the real issue is why must you, and other Darwinists, rely so heavily on theological argumentation in the first place to try to make your case? (Darwin's God: Cornelius Hunter) ,,, Ask yourself, Why can't you come on this site, lay out 1, 2, 10, 20, or even a hundred examples of molecular machines being evolved from scratch by neo-Darwinian processes in the lab, and then state "case closed' and walk away and go watch a movie or whatever??. Why is it so important for you to rely on theological argumentation in order to make your case. This is simply insane for you to do so. Nobody in the hard sciences tries to prove General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, or the Big Bang, true by debunking certain interpretations of the Bible. Only Darwinists think this actually a legitimate form of scientific argumentation when in reality it is about as insane as can be as to trying to establish a legitimate scientific foundation!bornagain77
May 30, 2013
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JLAfan2001:
Then why does mainstream science including Christians accept this? It should have been rejected but hasn’t. Why?
Are you referring to a strictly materialistic account (I was)? If so, then we could certainly debate just how widespread the support is. In contrast, if you are allowing for intelligent input into the origin and history of life on Earth, then, yes, you will get lots more people to buy into that. Regardless, there are lots of reasons why people believe what they do. Interesting discussion in its own right, but, frankly, I'm more interested in the scientific particulars. And as soon as we start digging into those, the whole storyline starts to look pretty shaky. To be sure, there is some evidence that is consistent with the traditional evolutionary storyline. However, the evidence as a whole, and viewed without the bias of materialistic philosophy, points quite strongly in another direction.Eric Anderson
May 30, 2013
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Actually, BA, I came from my parents because I “evolved” from a cell from my parents. If can do it in nine months, why not all life in 3 – 4 billion years?
Please, please tell us this was in jest. If not, I nominate it for the Absurd Comment of the Year award.Eric Anderson
May 30, 2013
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Then why does mainstream science including Christians accept this?
If I might suggest, why don't you ask them. Prior to posting at UD, I used to argue a lot with professional scientists at ARN. I asked them those questions, and when they couldn't defend their claims, it looked like protecting of their reputations and wanting to save face. You have the opportunity to pose some of the questions we've raised at UD to some of these discussion boards. You can go visit PandasThumb or numerous other places where there are professional scientists willing to teach you evolution. You can ask them about the origin of life. About the Urey-Miller experiment. Find out for yourself why they believe non-living chemicals can evolve into life. If you really want to, you can enroll in a secular school, endure hundreds of hours of boring classes to give you access to science professors. That's what I did, and I learned. If it means that much to you, I think you'll find a way to do it. If however, you feel your time is better spent on practical matters, I respect that as well. I didn't come to my current set of beliefs by hanging out with ID folk, I came to them by hanging out with evolutionists who got really nasty when I raised basic questions. CharlieD's behavior was typical of many, but I kept asking and probing. Eventually I'd just throw up assertions to see how they'd try to tear them down (since they were so eager). Sometimes I was mistaken and had to make a retraction, but one thing I noticed is even when the other side was caught with a falsehood, they were incapable of retracting. On top of that, I've experienced the persecution of the Darwinists first hand. Don't believe me? Enroll in a secular school, take a biology classes and express interest in debating the pros and cons of evolution. You'll get a first hand view of why the mainstream is the way it is. If you choose not to do this, I respect that as it will take a huge part of time from your life. I chose to take that path because the question really mattered to me. I say this because I think you won't really learn hanging around here, you need to ask people in the mainstream. We can suggest some of the questions you might ask like: "Assuming the results of the Urey-Miller experiment, how did racemic monomers polymerize into homochiral monomers with alpha-peptide bonds" If you don't understand yet the significance of this claim it might be worth learning and struggling to understand. Too bad for the teacher that killed himself, there is a chance if he appreciated such questions, he might be alive today and still seeking to learn the truth, but instead an over-hyped and fallacious experiment appeared to have possibly contributed to his suicide.scordova
May 30, 2013
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Answer: Because OS installation and human development are a matter of executing pre-existing instructions. We're contesting how those instructions could have come about on their own. My post @92 offers details for why I don't see evolution as a capable cause, based on benchmarks of observed evolution.JoeCoder
May 30, 2013
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I "evolved" from a cell from my parents. If can do it in nine months, why not all life in 3 – 4 billion years?
I evolved Windows XP from an installation CD in 30 minutes. Why did it take all those engineers at microsoft 4 years? :PJoeCoder
May 30, 2013
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Eric @113 you might like this from Robert Shapiro
Thus we have the famous Miller-Urey experiment showing the inevitability of amino acids on the primitive Earth. And of course the apparatus itself has no resemblance whatsoever to the primitive Earth. One of the popular magazines said that if his apparatus had been left on for a million years, something like the first living creature might have crawled out of it. And I say, if he'd left his apparatus on for a million years, he would have run up one hell of an electric bill. But nothing further would have happened because the spark was in the atmosphere and he'd used up all of the chemicals with carbon in the atmosphere, and the amino acids, which aren't volatile — they don't fly, so to speak — were safely ensconced in the water solution, and the water solution was a collection of non-volatile compounds, well, and the volatile compounds ended up in — so when an experiment goes wrong in organic chemistry you get a black gook and you reach for the potassium bichromate and sulfuric acid — mixed together it's a called cleaning solution — that cleans out about 90 percent of the failed organic experiments that are ever run. You use that and you can get rid of the tars in about 80 to 90 percent of his carbon, this stuff that had unfortunately flown again and again until it got zapped and ended up as tars on the wall of his flask. Well, this was the best prebiotic experiment ever run, because at least he started with components that hypothetically could have been on the early Earth.
http://www.edge.org/documents/life/Life.pdf p.91udat
May 30, 2013
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",has to be just about one of the lamest argument for evolution I’ve ever seen. I mean really, It’s up there with Dawkins argument in “the blind watchmaker”:" Actually, BA, I came from my parents because I "evolved" from a cell from my parents. If can do it in nine months, why not all life in 3 - 4 billion years? "Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence." I Genesis is not true, what else have you got to debunk materialism? Debunk it with Islam or Hinduism or Sikhism or New Age or Mormonism. If the account is not true, what separates it from any other creation account? If the none of the creation accounts are true, what can debunk materialism as in nature alone counts for our origin? Sal "I’ll give you really sad story to that effect. The Urey-Miller experiment was widely accepted as explaining the origin of life. It turns out it was an utter failure. However one high school teacher taught it to many students and deChrsitianized many of them. The teacher eventually committed suicide. Though it’s hard to say for sure why the teacher committed suicide, it would seem, superficially if one thinks life is meaningless and has no design, it is hard to make a case from science that life has meaning. There is a chance that teacher might have decided to live if he thought life had intrinsic meaning. I met one of that teachers students who related the story to me." This is indeed sad but what if the truth is there is no meaning? What if Nihilism is the ACTUAL truth? I know if feels uncomfortable but it could be real. Eric "1. It has never been observed. 2. There is good reason to think it cannot occur on a naturalistic basis given the timeframe and the available resources. 3. Extrapolation from minor changes within species to large-scale changes is not logically sound. (After all, what if A + B doesn’t add up to Z?)" Then why does mainstream science including Christians accept this? It should have been rejected but hasn't. Why? The lecture that Denis Noble gave a few weeks ago should have killed it but didn't.JLAfan2001
May 30, 2013
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scordova @111: The Miller-Urey experiment has a soft place in my heart. Years ago when I first became interested in the design/evolution debate one of the first areas I spent a lot of time researching was the Miller-Urey experiment. I participated in quite a few debates online with materialist abiogenesis proponents who were all enamored with the Miller-Urey experiment and it quickly became clear that: (i) they didn't know, or wilfully ignored, the limitations and drawbacks of the experiment, and -- more importantly -- (ii) even if the experiment had demonstrated what its most ardent proponents claimed, it still would do essentially nothing to solve the OOL challenges. I appreciate those early exchanges for the chance it gave me to cut my teeth in the debate and start thinking critically about the received evolutionary wisdom.Eric Anderson
May 30, 2013
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JLAfan2001:
I think this is why I believe evolution. We have observed it within species so it would be reasonable to extrapolate macro-evolution from the similar DNA and the fossil record happening over a period of time.
Except that: 1. It has never been observed. 2. There is good reason to think it cannot occur on a naturalistic basis given the timeframe and the available resources. 3. Extrapolation from minor changes within species to large-scale changes is not logically sound. (After all, what if A + B doesn't add up to Z?)
Add all the other evidences and what other explanation even comes close? It’s got to be right even if there are still questions.
Wow. This is a wonderful example of the evolutionary mindset. Even if all the major questions are still open, something like Darwin's theory just has to be right. Except that when we escape from that intellectual trap we see that it isn't obvious at all.Eric Anderson
May 30, 2013
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So you’re more or less in the same boat as me. If that’s the case, why did you challenge me on my level of science? Also, why would UD allow anyone who has no science training post here? How and why should I trust any of the evidence you have posted then? I mean no disrespect to you but isn’t his dangerous?
I'm glad you asked. 1. UD is discussion blog, it is not an outlet for formal science. 2. I do have some nominal scientific training, I just received a Master's in Applied Physics. 3. My undergrads were in Computer Science, Electrical Engineering, and Mathematics. I was approached by Bill Dembski to be a student of Robert Marks in the Evolution Informatics Lab at Baylor. Computer Science and math are extremely relevant to questions of origins, the problem is biologists don't like the fact engineers criticize their work, but biologists are more and more relying on engineers to help them understand biology because biology is evidently very analogous to machines, hence engineering is a very good discipline to understand biology. 1/3 of MIT engineers are working on biological projects. 4. Don't trust anything I post, trust the facts. My postings are to point you to where to look. You may decide for yourself. If these topics really mean that much to you, you'll find a way to learn more and more on your own. 5. The reason I asked about your background is I've found that people more versant in the facts are easier to communicate with if they are truly open. For example, I found it difficult to argue the case for ID if someone has zero knowledge of chemistry or is uncomfortable with probability and statistics. Given that ID relies a lot on probability and statistics and chemistry, it's awfully hard to make that case if the audience doesn't feel comfortable with those concepts. I wasn't challenging you on your level of understanding science, I was asking because if you fit into the category of feeling comfortable in these topics, important discussions at UD will be of little value to you. Without that, you won't be able to appreciate ID's challenge in the origin-of-life. I personally know a professor of biology from my undergrad university at GMU. She was expelled when she decided, late in her career, that Darwin was wrong. A similar thing happened to Richard Sternberg who was/is an evolutionary biologist. They have better credentials in biology than I, and Don Johnson has better credentials as well. Their works are in the public domain, so you don't have to listen to what published at UD if you'd rather hear it from double-PhD scientists like them. That's fine, and that may even be better. I post at UD because this is a volunteer site, and all the contributors keep the discussion alive. People visit for the discussion like they visit each other in real life, in order to meet and converse. My postings are conversations to the public, not scientific dissertations. The benefit of UD over just reading books is you get to interact with people who have the same questions as you.
I mean no disrespect to you but isn’t his dangerous?
How so? So what if I'm wrong or all of UD is wrong, it's not really going to change things much in terms of every day life. If there is no ID, if ID is false, then belief in ID will be little more than a mistaken belief. Hardly fatal, imho. Look at Ben Carson and John Hartnett. Suppose ID is false, did it really affect their ability to do science? No. But if ID is true, and especially if creationism is true, and if there is a Christ, it is MORE dangerous that you reject Christianity because of evolution. Do you really want to trust you eternal future with people like Richard Dawkins or PZ Myers? So I'd argue, in practical matters, it is far more dangerous to accept Dawkins ideas of evolution than ID. The reason these discussion are carried out with such passion is not because of the science, but because of the philosophical implications. Whether ID or evolution is true is not of immediate impact on most of science (maybe in the future, we'll see). If ID is wrong, and you come to accept it, you have little to lose. If however ID is true, and you lost your soul believing in evolution, then that seems far more dangerous from a practical standpoint. I'll give you really sad story to that effect. The Urey-Miller experiment was widely accepted as explaining the origin of life. It turns out it was an utter failure. However one high school teacher taught it to many students and deChrsitianized many of them. The teacher eventually committed suicide. Though it's hard to say for sure why the teacher committed suicide, it would seem, superficially if one thinks life is meaningless and has no design, it is hard to make a case from science that life has meaning. There is a chance that teacher might have decided to live if he thought life had intrinsic meaning. I met one of that teachers students who related the story to me. If the Urey-Miller experiment contributed to the teacher's suicide that is sad, because that experiment has since been overturned.scordova
May 30, 2013
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@JLAfan2001
We have observed it within species so it would be reasonable to extrapolate macro-evolution from the similar DNA
On this, what do you think about my post @92? Even the small functional differences seem insurmountable given what we observe how evolution works.
the fossil record happening over a period of time
I disagree that the fossil record supports Darwinian evolution. In the words of paleontologist and outspoken ID critic Don Prothero, it's "one vast monument to stasis, with relatively few cases where anyone had observed gradual evolution". In his Skeptic Magazine article he describes how the stasis is real and not merely a product of inadequate sampling, "I could point to this data set and make the case for the prevalence of stasis without any criticism of bias in my sampling". Stasis is maintained even through changing selective pressures, since "the fossil mammals showed no sign of responding to the biggest climate change of the past 50 million years" As for the proposed transitional sequences, I disagree that their signal overpowers the noise of false sequences, or that morphology is a reliable indicator of relatedness. Take a look at the convergence between placental and marsupial mammals and especially the canine/marsupial wolf. Given common descent, each on the left would be more closely related to humans, giraffes, whales, and bats than to their twins on the right. Yet they're closer than anything on the proposed transitional sequences rejected by creationists. However the fossil record does have a general ordering of fish, amphibians, reptiles, birds/mammals. The YEC's argue that this matches the vertical position where they live their lives and the order in which they would have been destroyed by the flood. But so far nobody has found any Devonian dolphins or Jurassic jackrabbits, so it doesn't quite work. Personally, I have no idea what the fossil record shows.
If Neanderthals are essentially human, why would God let them go extinct if they were presumably made in his image?
Because I see us as the same species, I see this question as being the same as, "Why does God let people die?" For Christians who believe that people are eternal, physical death isn't a hammer god's gonna zap you with; it's graduation to what's next, with an element of accountability for what we've done with what we started with.JoeCoder
May 30, 2013
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JLAfan2001 why are you always arguing against Genesis instead of addressing the bankruptcy inherent in materialism? Are you more interested in debunking YEC Theology or in science?,,, Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses.” Phillip Johnson - The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25. http://www.firstthings.com/article/2008/09/002-the-unraveling-of-scientific-materialism-26 There are two definitions of Science in our Culture - Phillip E. Johnson - audio http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=zK5sqd1SKXo#t=1596s I suggest you completely separate your arguments against Biblical literalism from the science at hand, for no matter what your Theological position, materialism is insanebornagain77
May 30, 2013
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JLAfan2001, excuse but,, "We look like our parents thus everything evolved from a first cell" ,,,has to be just about one of the lamest argument for evolution I've ever seen. :) I mean really, It's up there with Dawkins argument in "the blind watchmaker": Darwinism Not Proved Impossible Therefore Its True http://www.metacafe.com/watch/10285716/bornagain77
May 30, 2013
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If Neanderthals are essentially human, why would God let them go extinct if they were presumably made in his image? The same could be said for cro-magnon. Genesis just gets harder and harder to believe.JLAfan2001
May 30, 2013
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Sal "I have no formal training in biology either, but I do have training in other scientific disciplines that have some bearing on the questions raised. I’m not a scientist but a financeer." So you're more or less in the same boat as me. If that's the case, why did you challenge me on my level of science? Also, why would UD allow anyone who has no science training post here? How and why should I trust any of the evidence you have posted then? I mean no disrespect to you but isn't his dangerous? "The similarity of organisms to one another (something even creationists were aware of) is superficially a good reason to accept evolution. Children look like parents, and by way of extrapolation, it would seem reasonable that this idea could be extrapolated all the way back to the first cell." I think this is why I believe evolution. We have observed it within species so it would be reasonable to extrapolate macro-evolution from the similar DNA and the fossil record happening over a period of time. Add all the other evidences and what other explanation even comes close? It's got to be right even if there are still questions. I guess the million dollar question is was it purposeless or purposeful? That question could be the difference between atheism and theism.JLAfan2001
May 30, 2013
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Well Joe, I don't buy the neanderthal argument now, but it took A LOT of persuading to give up that position because I falsely thought Darwinists had a much stronger case than it turned out they had. But as turns out to be the situation so often with dogmatic Darwinian claims, their claim was found to be premature and not nearly as strong as they made it out to be:
Humans and Neanderthals Are One - May 2010 Excerpt: In short, the evidence has brought humans and Neanderthals together as mere varieties of the same species, while simultaneously increasing the genetic distance between humans and the great apes. http://www.creationsafaris.com/crev201005.htm#20100508a “We found that the mtDNA sites where Neandertals differed from modern man tended to be at mutational hotspots—sites where many modern humans also differ. In addition, at the sites where Neandertals differed from each other, one of them would match the modern human.” - Dr David DeWitt This link is in agreement: "The majority of the Neandertal divergences overlap with those of the humans (Fig. 3), reflecting the fact that Neandertals fall inside the variation of present-day humans." (A Draft Sequence of the Neandertal Genome, May 2010, sciencemag) http://www.sciencemag.org/content/328/5979/710.full A Draft Sequence of the Neandertal Genome by R. Green, D. Reich, S. Paabo et al. (Science, 7 May 2010: Vol. 328 no. 5979 pp. 710-722, DOI: 10.1126/science.1188021): Human Variability Can Be Rapid - December 19, 2011 Excerpt: In a new paper in Current Biology (Volume 21, Issue 24, R1002-R1009, 20 December 2011), Lalueza-Fox and Gilbert said: 'Analyses of Neanderthal and Denisovan nuclear and mitochondrial genomes have revealed surprising insights into these archaic humans as well as our own species. The genomes provide a preliminary catalogue of derived amino acids that are specific to all extant modern humans, thus offering insights into the functional differences between the three lineages. In addition, the genomes provide evidence of gene flow between the three lineages after anatomically modern humans left Africa, drastically changing our view of human evolution.' Instead of “surprising insights,” they should have said “falsifications,” because none of that was believed by paleoanthropologists a decade ago. That’s why it “drastically changed” their view. They differentiated “archaic humans” from “our own species,” but then pointed to “evidence of gene flow” between all three groups. You can’t get gene flow without sex. If members of these groups produced children, they are all the same species according to the biological species concept (i.e., species are populations able to produce fertile offspring). http://crev.info/content/111219-human_variability_can_be_rapid Neanderthal Myth and Orwellian Double-Think - Jeffrey Tomkins PhD. - 2012 Excerpt: Modern humans and Neanderthals are essentially genetically identical. Neanderthals are unequivocally fully human based on a number of actual genetic studies using ancient DNA extracted from Neanderthal remains. The DNA data fully confirms the numerous anatomical studies performed on a wide variety of skeletal remains found in diverse geographical regions across Europe and the Middle East. The anatomical data not only shows that Neanderthals had fully human bone structure, but larger brains and more robust features. In fact, to the uncritical observer, they appear superior to modern humans. http://designed-dna.org/blog/files/3455fa8d785a887abd8316c1505a8b8c-33.php So What's the Deal with the Neanderthal, Their Demise? - 2012 Excerpt: There is an emerging segment in academia which is getting more vociferous about the prospect of neither the intellectual nor behavioral capacity of the Neanderthal being significantly different or inferior to that of their 'anatomically modern' human contemporaries. http://exploring-africa.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/so-whats-deal-with-neanderthal-their.html
On a personal note, apart from the swing in evidence, I'm personally glad that the evidence swung persuasively towards unification, as it makes the gap between apes and humans that much wider and the problem for atheists that much more insurmountable. As to Ross's overall position, I always felt a bit uneasy with that particular prediction of his, and always thought it was his weakest prediction, and always felt his strongest suit was and is his predictions in cosmology and ancient 'terra-forming' for the earth.bornagain77
May 30, 2013
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CharlieD: "No need to get all bent out of shape though Ill be on my way, out of fear catching the stupidity that runs rampant here. Cheerio" Don't let the door hit you on the way out.Barb
May 30, 2013
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Sal Unlike a lot of people who post here, I will admit that I have no training in biology. I have believed the evidence based on some things that I have read and observed on the internet.
I have no formal training in biology either, but I do have training in other scientific disciplines that have some bearing on the questions raised. I'm not a scientist but a financeer. The similarity of organisms to one another (something even creationists were aware of) is superficially a good reason to accept evolution. Children look like parents, and by way of extrapolation, it would seem reasonable that this idea could be extrapolated all the way back to the first cell. Even today, there are a good minority ID proponents who accept common descent (like Behe, Sternberg, Mike Gene, John Davison, etc.) What changed my mind was the question of the origin-of-life. Even assuming we all evolved from the same first cell, the barriers to reaching that first cell from non-living matter don't seem to accord with anything I know in science. If you look at the TalkOrigins website, you'll see an extreme scarcity of discussion regarding the origin of life. That is because the peer-reviewed literature has no answers, and some peer-reviewed literature argues specifically against any sort of scientifically provable mechanism for the origin of life. I can provide links to some of this literature, but its very very technical. I'd be willing to write something on the matter someday if it interests you that will be moderately technical, however, Don Johnson's the programming of life is probably the best. He has a PhD in Chemistry and a PhD in computer science. He did work on recombinant DNA. He is extremely qualified, and for what its worth, he was an evolutionist. Once I began from that starting point of the origin of life, it opened up the possibility for criticizing other things like evolution, the geological column, etc. Thanks for your response. Salscordova
May 30, 2013
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@BA77 In your own words, what do you think of RTB's view that humans and neanderthals don't share a common ancestor? I've read a couple articles on their site but didn't find them compelling. The DNA and cultural evidence just seem too similar.JoeCoder
May 30, 2013
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Explaining things scientifically to these guys is like talking to a wall. I tried it a month ago, they ignored and copied/pasted their typical bullshit in response. Im just here for the laughs now. No need to get all bent out of shape though Ill be on my way, out of fear catching the stupidity that runs rampant here. CheerioCharlieD
May 30, 2013
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I'm not at a stalemate. There's just too much I haven't explored yet.JoeCoder
May 30, 2013
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