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Cocktails! falsifying Darwinism via falsifying the geological “column”

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There is the forgotten book Shattering the Myths of Darwinism written by a non-creationist agnostic Richard Milton. Milton expressed his skepticism of mainstream claims of the old-age of the fossil record. His work further motivated me toward the idea that there could an empirically driven critique of the accepted ages of the fossils.

This is a short bio of Milton:

Richard Milton is a science journalist and design engineer based in London. He is a member of Mensa, the international high-IQ society, and writes a column for Mensa Magazine. He has been a member of the Geologists’ Association for twenty years, and did extensive geological research for this book. He has been featured on the BBC, NBC, and other television networks.

Like the agnostic Denton, Milton seems to draw much admiration from creationists.

The fact Milton was an agnostic suggested to me that considerations of facts and following the evidence wherever it leads might lead one to a different conclusion than the accepted mainstream view of fossil ages. One does not have to begin with the premise of YEC to conclude that the claims of the old ages of fossils have serious empirical difficulties.

But what about radiometric dating? That serious issue will be covered in another post, but suffice to say, on evidential grounds alone, it seems there are serious unresolved conflicts. If physics and chemistry are invoked to defend the old ages of fossils, physics and chemistry can also be invoked to falsify it. Neither side, creationist or evolutionist, has a conflict-free model of history. But that is not to say that one side might not prevail on empirical grounds eventually in the light of future scientific discoveries.

My aim then is not to argue that the accepted mainstream model of the history of life is definitely wrong, but rather it can’t be definitely right given what we already know. Skepticism is in order, and thankfully it doesn’t stop there, skepticism might lead to novel, innovative research to settle the conflicts.

We have the conceptual notion of a geological “column”. The idea is that if you dig a hole, you are essentially traversing down a conceptual column that provides a recorded history of life. Conceptually this is depicted in the following image:

geological column

In such a column, older fossils are buried beneath younger fossils. Even supposing this is a reasonable interpretation, it does not immediately affix the ages of the fossils. One fossil may be older than another, but it doesn’t immediately tell us that the oldest fossils are 500 million years old! So for the sake of argument, let us assume that on average deeper means older, what can we say about the oldest layer based on empirical considerations?

When I asked a geologist common sense questions about the process of fossilization, he threw a fit. I asked “how are fossils fossilized?” I pointed out if you leave a dead organism out in the open it decomposes or is eaten by scavengers. So really good fossilization can’t happen by ordinary processes but rather by catastrophic process such as rapid burial, and often a burial that involves water. He threw a fit at the suggestion but reluctantly conceded that to get really good fossils, one needs water and rapid burial. He didn’t like where the discussion seemed to be headed. 🙂

Here are the boring considerations. Suppose we have intact geological column which can be found in one location such that you get to dig and find fossils in the order prescribed by the diagram above (and there are some who argue there is no such place on Earth, only in the conceptual imaginations of paleontologists). Suppose we give a generous height to this column of 200 miles spanning a history of 500 million years, what would be the average rate of deposition (accumulation of sediments on top of each other). I calculated that it would be .667 millimeters a year.

The geologist then fumed at my figure of a 200-mile deep geological column and argued it could be less than that. Of course, he didn’t realize he actually strengthened my argument. So I said, “fine, 14 miles, since that’s the farthest man has ever drilled into the Earth, that yields a deposition rate of .046 millimeters a year,” which is about half the thickness of a sheet of paper. That would mean a dinosaur that is lying 5 meters high will take about 100,000 years to bury, and thus it becomes very doubtful that it will fossilize because it is exposed to scavengers and decomposition and other environmental effects.

From Darwin-loving pages of Wiki we read:

Fossilization processes proceed differently according to tissue type and external conditions.

Permineralization is a process of fossilization that occurs when an organism is buried. The empty spaces within an organism (spaces filled with liquid or gas during life) become filled with mineral-rich groundwater. Minerals precipitate from the groundwater, occupying the empty spaces. This process can occur in very small spaces, such as within the cell wall of a plant cell. Small scale permineralization can produce very detailed fossils. For permineralization to occur, the organism must become covered by sediment soon after death or soon after the initial decay process. The degree to which the remains are decayed when covered determines the later details of the fossil. Some fossils consist only of skeletal remains or teeth; other fossils contain traces of skin, feathers or even soft tissues.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil

What? The organism needs to buried with sediments and water quickly. Of note, many layers of the geological “column” indicated mass extinction events, such that it could also be interpreted to be rapid simultaneous burial over large geographical regions by water and sediments, if not rapid simultaneous burial over the entire globe! But whatever the details, the fact remains that large sections of the geological column that contain fossils, could not, even in principle be assembled over millions of years. At best we have one catastrophe that creates a bed of fossils followed by a long era of stasis (no activity) and then followed another catastrophe, etc.

The geologist fumed, and said something to the effect, “You’re analysis is silly. Deposition doesn’t happen at steady rates like you imply.” Of course he was fuming so badly, he didn’t realize he was making my point, namely most of the fossil rich geological column didn’t take hundreds of millions of years to form. 🙂 Steady deposition could not have created the fossil record even in principle and even as Darwin and Lyell supposed. At best we have layers created by catastrophes, and then long periods of stasis in between. The bottom line is, the formation of most of the fossil layers of “column” could not have taken place over millions of years even in principle. We have to imagine the long periods of stasis are actually represented, because the fossil layers themselves must have formed in a few years if not a few minutes!

For the Darwinian story to hold, one has to fortuitously interleave highly fotuitous catastrophes followed by long eras of stasis and do this for each of the layers.

Recording of geological history via a process of slow, steady change is represented by a school of thought known as uniformitarianism (founded by Lyell). In contrast, recording of geological history by a process of catastrophes is known as catastrophism. The recording process for the fossil layers based on the considerations above, is then mostly the product of catastrophes. This catastrophist school of thought was highly anti-Darwinian:

Lyell encapsulated his philosophy in a doctrine later called “uniformitarianism”—a complex set of beliefs centered on the catechism that “the present is the key to the past.”….Lyell viewed this principle as a methodological reform to eliminate fanciful (and quasi-theological) “catastrophic” causes and to render the full magnitude of past change by the slow and steady accumulation of ordinary small changes (deposition and erosion grain by grain) extended over vast times.

And yet, from two different standpoints (theoretical and empirical), Lyell’s credo makes little sense, and its status as dogma can only reflect our social and psychological preferences. First, what is the probability that our tiny slice of observable time should include the full range of potential processes that might alter the earth? What about big, but perfectly natural, events that occur so infrequently that we have only a remote chance of observing even one occurrence in historical time? Second, how can Lyellian gradualism account for the fundamental fact of paleontology–extensive, and appparently rapid, faunal turnovers (“mass extinctions”) occurring several times in the history of life? (Traditional explanations over at least a few million years and attributing them to over intensification of ordinary causes–changes in temperature and sea level, for example–but the arguments have always seemed forced.)

Yet, until recently, extinction received much less attention than its obvious prominence warranted. In an overly Darwinian world of adaptation, gradual change, and improvement, extinction seemed, well, so negative–the ultimate failure, the flip side of evolution’s “real” work, something to be acknowledge but not intensely discussed in polite company.

This odd neglect has been reversed in the last decade…the primary architect of this shift is my brilliant colleague David M. Raup….Dave Raup is the best of the best.

Stephen J. Gould
Bad Genes or Bad Luck by David Raup

Amen brother Gould!

But that is not the end of problems, only the beginning. We have the paradoxical situation where the fossil record accumulates, but then this must happen against the contrary forces of erosion. Thus, the fossil record must:
1. fortuitously form one fossil layer via a fortuitous catastrophe
2. have that layer separated from the layer above it by a long era of stasis (no activity)
3. then another fortuitous catastrophe creates the next layer
4. etc.

All this must happen while miraculously avoiding the problem of erosion. This leads to a mechanical contradiction. Is this contradiction resolved? No, just obfuscated away and swept under the rug and defended by ridicule of those who would dare to ask common sense questions.

Ariel Roth of Geoscience Research points out that reasonable estimates of erosion rates of 6 centimeters/1000 year would wipe out not only the geological “column” but even the continents above sea level in short order.

By noting the rates at which the surfaces of the continents are eroded and carried away by rivers to the oceans (see section 2 for specific values), one can calculate the length of time required to remove a given thickness of the continents. Judson and Ritter (1964) have estimated that for the United States the rate of erosion averages 6.1 cm/1000 years. At this rate of denudation the continents, which average 623 m above sea level, would be eroded to sea level in a mere 10.2 Ma [million years]
….
It has been suggested that mountains still exist because they are constantly being renewed by uplift from below. However, this process of uplift could not go through even one complete cycle of erosion and uplift without eradicating the layers of the geologic column found in them. Present erosion rates would tend to rapidly eradicate evidence of older sediments; yet these sediments are still very well-represented, both in mountains and elsewhere.
….
There is little question that there is some difficulty in reconciling present erosion rates with standard geochronology.

On top of that, why aren’t the oceans saturated solutions of salt and minerals? If rain has been pouring on land and pumping salt and other minerals into the oceans, why aren’t they saturated? That complication may be resolvable, but one does not get the feeling the questions are even welcome, much less attempts at resolution.

When I’ve asked geologists, PandasThumbsters about these difficulties, I get just get rude rebuffs. I think to myself, “if not for my sake, won’t they want to answer these questions for the sake of curious aspiring Darwinists?”. Maybe they won’t answer these questions because they have none.

NOTES:
1. The title contains the word: “Cocktail” to emphasize the speculative, informal nature of this essay. I elaborate more about the relevance of such topics to ID in The relevance of YEC to ID

2. here is the link to Ariel Roth’s paper:
http://www.grisda.org/origins/13064.htm

and a long excerpt

By noting the rates at which the surfaces of the continents are eroded and carried away by rivers to the oceans (see section 2 for specific values), one can calculate the length of time required to remove a given thickness of the continents. Judson and Ritter (1964) have estimated that for the United States the rate of erosion averages 6.1 cm/1000 years. At this rate of denudation the continents, which average 623 m above sea level, would be eroded to sea level in a mere 10.2 Ma. In other words, at this rate the present continents would be eroded over 340 times in the 3500 Ma assumed for the age of the continents. The observation by the famous geologist Powell that “mountains cannot long remain mountains” certainly seems appropriate. The estimate of 10 Ma given above has been a well-accepted figure (Schumm 1963) and has subsequently been referred to in a number of publications including Dott and Batten (1971, p. 136) and Garrels and Mackenzie (1971, pp. 114-115). Earlier, Dole and Stabler (1909) gave figures indicating that it would take about twice as long. Judson (1968), while correcting for human activity, suggests 34 Ma for complete erosion of the continents. None of these figures does much to alleviate the discrepancy which is especially significant when one considers mountain ranges such as the Caledonides of western Europe and the Appalachians of North America which are assumed to be several hundred Ma old. Why are these ranges here today if they are so old?
Rates of erosion are greater in high mountains and lower in regions of less relief (Ahnert 1970, Bloom 1971, Ruxton and McDougall 1967, and Schumm 1963). Ruxton and McDougall (1967) report erosion rates of 8 cm/1000 years near sea level and 52 cm/1000 years at an altitude of 975 m in the Hydrographers Range in Papua. Rates of 92 cm/1000 years are reported for the Guatemala-Mexico Border Mountains (Corbel 1959), 100 cm/1000 years for the Himalayas (Menard 1961), and in the Mt. Rainier region of Washington Mills (1976) documents erosion rates of up to 800 cm/1000 years. Probably the highest recorded regional rate is 1900 cm/1000 years from a volcano in New Guinea (Ollier and Brown 1971).
It has been suggested that mountains still exist because they are constantly being renewed by uplift from below. However, this process of uplift could not go through even one complete cycle of erosion and uplift without eradicating the layers of the geologic column found in them. Present erosion rates would tend to rapidly eradicate evidence of older sediments; yet these sediments are still very well-represented, both in mountains and elsewhere.
Other attempts to reconcile average present erosion rates to geologic time include suggestions that man’s activities, especially agricultural practices, have increased the rate of erosion, making present rates uncharacteristically rapid. Such an explanation seems inadequate to account for a several hundred-fold discrepancy. Gilluly et al. (1968, p. 79) propose that farming may have increased average erosion rates by a factor of less than 2, while Judson (1968) suggests about 2½ times. Others have suggested that the climate of the past may have been more dry or the relief flatter, resulting in slower erosion rates. We now have some interior basins such as central Australia where there is no drainage and no removal of sediment, but these are exceptions. The lush vegetation evident in significant sections of the fossil record suggests at least some wetter conditions in the past. Characteristically, current erosion rates in hot, dry lowlands with gradients 0.001 or less, are not sufficiently slower. Corbel (1959) indicates rates of 1.2 cm/1000 years for the hot dry plains of the Mediterranean region and New Mexico. The lowest rates found in a study of 20 river basins (Ahnert 1970) was 1.6 cm/1000 years for basins in Texas and England. These slower rates do not solve a discrepancy of several hundred-fold, and one would have to postulate different past conditions for a major area of the earth during a significant proportion of earth history to provide a resolution to the problem.
A different context can serve to emphasize the question of rates of erosion. If it is assumed that 2.5 km of continents have been eroded in the past (our present continents average about one fourth that thickness above sea level) and if it is assumed that erosion proceeds at the rate of 3 cm/1000 years (half of the presently observed rate to correct for the effects of modern agricultural pursuits), then it would take about 83 Ma to erode a 2.5 km thickness of continental crust. In other words, at present rates of erosion, continents 2.5 km thick could have been eroded 42 times during the assumed 3500 Ma age for the continents, or continents 106 km thick would have been eroded once. There is little question that there is some difficulty in reconciling present erosion rates with standard geochronology.

Comments
JGuy, WOW! Thanks. Tomkins is a real scientist. Former faculty of Clemson University (a secular university). What Walter ReMine told me was the DNA comparisons between humans and Chimps was not really legitimate. It would be akin to taking words in one book and seeing that 99% of the words in that book can be found in another book. That would be an obviously illegitimate comparison, but evolutionists have not been doing much better with their "optimized alignments" where they compare genes (analogous to words) versus actual comparison of sentences, paragraphs and chapters.
If done… Haldane’s Dilemma will be super-charged, and I doubt even ardent evolutionists could comfortably ignore the problem.
No kidding, not just Haldane's dilemma, but Muller's Ratchet, Nachman and Crowell's Paradox, Kondrashov's Question, Crows concerns, Walker/Keightley Degeneration, etc.
I doubt even ardent evolutionists could comfortably ignore the problem.
They can't, that's why they are beginning the rumbling for large scale eugenics to stem the tide of genetic deterioration because Darwinian evolution obviously isn't working to save the human race from dying. Unfortunately Tomkins essay was at a creationist site. It's always more fun to hear it from the Darwinists themselves. :-)scordova
May 29, 2013
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Sal, This is off topic, but since you claimed to be out of the loop on some recent creationist relevant studies. This paper is something worth noting if you haven't seen it, and keeping track of any studies relevant to it. Especially since sequencing technology has advanced over the past couple years to enable sequencing entire genomes in just a few days for about $1000. What I'm eagerly waiting for is redone tests on a wide range of chimps to compare to humans... to confirm further the argument of this paper: http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/arj/v6/n1/human-chimp-chromosome If done... Haldane's Dilemma will be super-charged, and I doubt even ardent evolutionists could comfortably ignore the problem. It's exciting to be a YEC :)JGuy
May 29, 2013
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JGuy, A testable thesis is to dig really deep, say 20 miles. Walt says we ought to see a scarcity of Uranium and other long term radioisotopes. :-) If so, he'll have the edge over other creationists, but more importantly, it will redefine the debate over radioisotopes as it will show radiation originated from something other than the Big Bang, Steller Evolution, and Supernovas. It is speculative to be sure, but, well.....I came across some interesting observations where radiation could created by electricity. See: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v313/n6005/abs/313773a0.html and http://cer.ucsd.edu/sbott/papers/Haines%20DZP%20review.pdf
It was these experiments showing the simultaneous emission of neutrons and hard x-rays, but existing even at comparatively lowcurrents of 150 kA that demonstrated that the reactions were not thermonuclear in origin. Anderson et al [35], Carruthers and Davenport [36], and many papers at the 1958 Geneva Conference on Peaceful Uses of Atomic Energy also came to the conclusion that the neutrons arose from an ion acceleration process. The nature of this process, consistent with the overall conservation of axial momentum, is still not fully understood and will be discussed later in this review, in particular in section
Say what? Chemical and Electrical process creating neutrons? I've also hear them generating proton flows and transmutation! Nuclear alchemy with electricity! href=http://www.22passi.it/downloads/Roma2012.pdf If this is true, it's not too much of a stretch to suppose certain radio isotopes are recent. If there were a global catastrophe under specialized conditions, lots of elements, radioisotopes could be synthesized. It would be interesting what this sort of "nucleosynthesis" would generate in terms of elements, but what if it accorded with the isotope ratios of interest? Too hard to tell right now, but this is heartening. Salscordova
May 29, 2013
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That said, when I spoke to Walt a few years ago he was working on explaining long term radioactivity. So even supposing there is a different explanation than Hydroplate theory, there is a lot of good informational stuff in his website. It is very refreshing to actually see YECs writing competing theories. That is a good thing rather than everyone agreeing, imho. Whatever is true that God wants us to know will eventually come to light. It is inevitable, it is by Design. Whatever happens to Walt’s theories, he was the most influential in bringing over to the YEC camp (but barely).
I'd like to add, if not merely emphasize, that though the creationist scientists assume (for reasons) the bible, they do not avoid the hard questions. Or even try to brush them under the rug. For example, in the zircon experiments, the RATE team did not try to argue that radioactive decay did not happen. They followed the evidence and argued that it DID happen. Even more, they went a step further to substantiate stronger evidence - in the case of zircons - that it actually did contain evidence of radioactive decay - i.e. that the radioactive parent:daughter ratios were not contaminants. In this case, they used the fissure track counts to prove this. Granted, it worked in their favor, in the long run, but such is also the case a YEC would expect & hope to find following the evidence beyond early hurdles. I've even read some ICR literature that suggested there does seem to exist a real/general trending of increased radioactive decay as we go deeper into strata. I'm not sure on the entire context of that thought though. Even so, the point here is, they don't ignore the data that some anti-creationist or evolutionists might think happens.JGuy
May 29, 2013
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goodusername@17:
Imagine that we actually found a place on Earth that has geologic layers representing every geologic time period. That would mean that that location has been experiencing steady (more or less) sedimentation, essentially non-stop, and never erosion, nor any other disruption, for about a billion years. Such a thing is so remarkable, that if such a thing were found, it would surely be used as evidence against “old earth” theories of geology. Also, that numerous spots on Earth have different layers speaks against the idea that a single event like the “Flood” can explain earth’s geology. This is, of course, one reason that even catastrophists long rejected that a single event could explain most geology, but instead proposed numerous large scale events.
Well, some may wonder if the story of the whole earth being covered with water is a myth or at least an exaggeration. To some extent the earth is still flooded. Seawater covers about 71 percent of the earth’s surface. So in reality the floodwaters are still here. And if the glaciers and polar ice caps were to melt, the sea level would rise to cover cities like New York and Tokyo. Geologists studying the landscape of the northwestern United States believe that as many as 100 ancient catastrophic floods once washed over the area. One such flood is said to have roared through the region with a wall of water 2,000 feet [600 m] high, traveling at 65 miles an hour [105 km/hr]—a flood of 500 cubic miles [2,000 cu km] of water, weighing more than two trillion tons. Similar findings have led other scientists to believe that a global flood is a distinct possibility.
Yes, but that’s due to processes that have been understood going back hundreds of years. Steno spoke about such processes, and the ideas were further refined by catastrophists long before the uniformitarians or evolutionists arrived on the scene. The uniformitarians and catastrophists disagreed on many things, but among the things they agreed on was the chronological order of the geologic layers.
I mentioned this in another thread, but my problem is not the evidence, it's the interpretation of the evidence. I believe that to be the case here. If we grant that a great flood could have happened, why have scientists found no trace of it? Perhaps they have, but they interpret the evidence some other way. For example, orthodox science teaches that the surface of the earth has been shaped in many places by powerful glaciers during a series of ice ages. But apparent evidence of glacial activity can sometimes be the result of water action. Very likely, then, some of the evidence for the Flood is being misread as evidence of an ice age. Concerning the time when scientists were developing their theory of ice ages, we read: “They were finding ice ages at every stage of the geologic history, in keeping with the philosophy of uniformity. Careful reexamination of the evidence in recent years, however, has rejected many of these ice ages; formations once identified as glacial moraines have been reinterpreted as beds laid down by mudflows, submarine landslides and turbidity currents: avalanches of turbid water that carry silt, sand and gravel out over the deep-ocean floor." An editorial in the magazine Biblical Archaeologist observed: “It is important to remember that the story of a great flood is one of the most widespread traditions in human culture . . . Nevertheless behind the oldest traditions found in Near Eastern sources, there may well be an actual flood of gigantic proportions dating from one of the pluvial periods . . . many thousands of years ago.” The pluvial periods were times when the surface of the earth was much wetter than now. Freshwater lakes around the world were much larger. It is theorized that the wetness was caused by heavy rains associated with the end of the ice ages. But some have suggested that on one occasion the extreme wetness of the earth’s surface was a result of the Flood. Geology professor John McCampbell once wrote: “The essential differences between Biblical catastrophism [the Flood] and evolutionary uniformitarianism are not over the factual data of geology but over the interpretations of those data. The interpretation preferred will depend largely upon the background and presuppositions of the individual student."Barb
May 29, 2013
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FYI, creation.com has a critique of Walt Brown’s Hydroplate theory: http://creation.com/hydroplate-theory . I’m skeptical because he’s never attempted to publish anything about it even in creation journals, and all data on it is in his non peer-reviewed book.
He's become an outcast in the YEC community, but one can't run away from the fact he's very smart, very educated, and taught at secular universities. For what its worth, I can't publish in creation journals either, and I'm supposedly more qualified in certain topics than some of those who've published there (which isn't saying much since I don't know squat). They may not like me saying it, but creationist journals are often run like a church not a scientific enterprise where doubt and skepticism and pointed criticism from non-creationists quarters are not welcome. Oh well. That said, when I spoke to Walt a few years ago he was working on explaining long term radioactivity. So even supposing there is a different explanation than Hydroplate theory, there is a lot of good informational stuff in his website. It is very refreshing to actually see YECs writing competing theories. That is a good thing rather than everyone agreeing, imho. Whatever is true that God wants us to know will eventually come to light. It is inevitable, it is by Design. Whatever happens to Walt's theories, he was the most influential in bringing over to the YEC camp (but barely).scordova
May 29, 2013
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FYI, creation.com has a critique of Walt Brown's Hydroplate theory: http://creation.com/hydroplate-theory . I'm skeptical because he's never attempted to publish anything about it even in creation journals, and all data on it is in his non peer-reviewed book.JoeCoder
May 29, 2013
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JGuy, Man, I've been so out of the loop. Developments happening so quickly I can't keep up. This has been the most fun I've had at UD in a long time. From your link:
http://creation.com/c14-dinos team of researchers gave a presentation at the 2012 Western Pacific Geophysics Meeting in Singapore, August 13–17, at which they gave 14C dating results from many bone samples from eight dinosaur specimens. All gave dates ranging from 22,000 to 39,000 years, right in the ‘ballpark’ predicted by creationists.1 But if dinosaurs really were millions of years old, there should not be one atom of 14C left in them. Two of the report’s physicist co-authors … are urging colleagues to do their own carbon dating of dinosaur bones. This was a joint event of the American Geophysical Union (AGU) and the Asia Oceania Geosciences Society (AOGS). It appears that the researchers approached the matter with considerable professionalism, including taking great pains to eliminate contamination with modern carbon as a source of the 14C signal in the bones. The lead presenter was Dr Thomas Seiler, a German physicist whose PhD is from the Technical University of Munich. .... Two of the report’s physicist co-authors, Professor Dr Robert Bennett and Dr Jean de Pontcharra, till recently with the French Atomic Energy Commission’s Grenoble Research Centre, are urging colleagues to do their own carbon dating of dinosaur bones. They say that the media should be encouraging scientists to do this also, presenting the findings openly and honestly at similar conferences. This would certainly be in the interests of scientific truth—especially following the repeated findings of soft tissue in dinosaur bones, and now even seemingly irrefutable DNA in dinosaur specimens.3 The public has the right to know the actual chronology of the dinosaurs, and indeed the history of the earth. Of course the people you know will generally not get to hear this powerful information from regular sources.
The facts are not cooperating with the geological column, and it would seem, repeatable testable observations can overthrow an entire cottage industry of paleontology and Darwinian evolution. If an idea like the geological column lives by the sword of science, it can die by the sword of science.scordova
May 29, 2013
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I’m just wondering if the “index fossil” idea isn’t a bit circular . . .
Regarding that, here is a bibliography by Walt Brown. Anyone is welcome to cross check the quotations and post their thoughts in this discussion:
http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/ReferencesandNotes63.html#wp1066491 “Ever since William Smith [the founder of the index fossil technique] at the beginning of the 19th century, fossils have been and still are the best and most accurate method of dating and correlating the rocks in which they occur. ... Apart from very ‘modern’ examples, which are really archaeology, I can think of no cases of radioactive decay being used to date fossils.” Derek V. Ager, “Fossil Frustrations,” New Scientist, Vol. 100, 10 November 1983, p. 425. b . “It cannot be denied that from a strictly philosophical standpoint geologists are here arguing in a circle. The succession of organisms has been determined by a study of their remains embedded in the rocks, and the relative ages of the rocks are determined by the remains of organisms that they contain.” R. H. Rastall, “Geology,” Encyclopaedia Britannica, Vol. 10, 1954, p. 168. u “Are the authorities maintaining, on the one hand, that evolution is documented by geology and, on the other hand, that geology is documented by evolution? Isn’t this a circular argument?” Larry Azar, “Biologists, Help!” BioScience, Vol. 28, November 1978, p. 714. u “A circular argument arises: interpret the fossil record in the terms of a particular theory of evolution, inspect the interpretation, and note that it confirms the theory. Well, it would, wouldn’t it? “... the fossils do not form the kind of pattern that would be predicted using a simple NeoDarwinian model.” Thomas S. Kemp, “A Fresh Look at the Fossil Record,” New Scientist, Vol. 108, 5 December 1985, p. 66. u “The intelligent layman has long suspected circular reasoning in the use of rocks to date fossils and fossils to date rocks. The geologist has never bothered to think of a good reply, feeling that explanations are not worth the trouble as long as the work brings results. This is supposed to be hard-headed pragmatism.” J. E. O’Rourke, “Pragmatism Versus Materialism in Stratigraphy,” American Journal of Science, Vol. 276, January 1976, p. 47. “The rocks do date the fossils, but the fossils date the rocks more accurately. Stratigraphy cannot avoid this kind of reasoning, if it insists on using only temporal concepts, because circularity is inherent in the derivation of time scales.” Ibid., p. 53. Although O’Rourke attempts to justify the practices of stratigraphers, he recognizes the inherent problems associated with such circular reasoning. u “But the danger of circularity is still present. For most biologists the strongest reason for accepting the evolutionary hypothesis is their acceptance of some theory that entails it. There is another difficulty. The temporal ordering of biological events beyond the local section may critically involve paleontological correlation, which necessarily presupposes the non-repeatability of organic events in geologic history. There are various justifications for this assumption but for almost all contemporary paleontologists it rests upon the acceptance of the evolutionary hypothesis.” Kitts, p. 466. u “It is a problem not easily solved by the classic methods of stratigraphical paleontology, as obviously we will land ourselves immediately in an impossible circular argument if we say, firstly that a particular lithology is synchronous on the evidence of its fossils, and secondly that the fossils are synchronous on the evidence of the lithology.” Derek V. Ager, The Nature of the Stratigraphical Record, 3rd edition (New York: John Wiley & Sons, 1993), p. 98. u “The charge that the construction of the geologic scale involves circularity has a certain amount of validity.” David M. Raup, “Geology and Creationism,” Field Museum of Natural History Bulletin, Vol. 54, March 1983, p. 21. u In a taped, transcribed, and approved 1979 interview with Dr. Donald Fisher, the state paleontologist for New York, Luther Sunderland asked Fisher how he dated certain fossils. Answer: “By the Cambrian rocks in which they were found.” When Sunderland asked if this was not circular reasoning, Fisher replied, “Of course; how else are you going to do it?” “The Geologic Column: Its Basis and Who Constructed It,” Bible-Science News Letter, December 1986, p. 6. u “The prime difficulty with the use of presumed ancestral-descendant sequences to express phylogeny is that biostratigraphic data are often used in conjunction with morphology in the initial evaluation of relationships, which leads to obvious circularity.” Bobb Schaeffer, Max K. Hecht, and Niles Eldredge, “Phylogeny and Paleontology,” Evolutionary Biology, Vol. 6 (New York: Appleton-Century-Crofts, Inc., 1972), p. 39
I always wonder how this could be since we have radiomentric dating, but then it dawned on me after I wrote the original article above, that radiometric dating of rocks can't affix the date of a strata of fossils, C-14 is the best IF (and emphasize IF) there are remaining trace amounts of C-14. But if there are remaining trace amounts of C-14 not due to contamination, the fossils are young. QED.scordova
May 29, 2013
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DiEB @24: Just curious: How do we know the lifespan of an extinct species? Is it not by examining the fossil record? I'm just wondering if the "index fossil" idea isn't a bit circular . . .Eric Anderson
May 29, 2013
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Byron C. Nelson, in his book The Deluge Story in Stone, refers to an area comprising part of Montana, Alberta and British Columbia, fully 7,000 square miles, where Precambrian rock (said to be formed over a thousand million years ago) lies above “Cretaceous” strata (which are supposed to be less than two hundred and fifty thousand years old).
Wow! Thanks for pointing that out! And to make this worse, we know any permineralized fossils in the Cretacious layer had to have been fossilized quickly. Thus the Cretacious layer itself could have be formed in less than an year, yet they are in reverse order, 7000 square miles no less! Glorious. Glorious!scordova
May 29, 2013
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Thanks for having the courage to honestly examine this matter. It seems you haven’t totally forsaken your YEC roots.
My roots were old-Earth Darwinism, not YEC. I was raised in a Catholic home and learned and accepted evolutionism through the teachings of science in public school. I decided Darwinism was false, but when I learned of the possibility of variable speed of light cosmologies (see: VSL) I became open to YEC. What I posted in this thread are my reason to have doubts about the geological column. Thanks for your comments.scordova
May 29, 2013
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DiEb,
Why did he concede your point?
Did you just gloss over the fossilization process? Quality fossilization such as permineralization happen quickly. I gave an example in the comment section of the fossil forrest that even professionals admit formed in a matter of weeks at most, maybe 15 to 30 feet, rapid burial (rapid relative to hundreds of thousands of years). See comment #10. The point isn't really discussed in the mainstreams is it, but it ought to be obvious. :-) So the point is conceded by your side, permineralized fossils happen quickly.
Dinosaurs are not used as index fossils.
That doesn't change the fact permineralization happens quickly and not over millions of years. But now that you have pointed out that Dino's aren't used as index fossils, the fact that C-14 dates for several dinos indicate they are young, and outher quantum phenomenon back this up (such as lack of sufficient chemical racemization which I'll post on later), then you've just provided potential counter examples to suggest index fossils provide misleading ages. As far as I can tell, assuming an old ages for the Earth, rocks are difficult to use to date strata because a billion year old rock could be buried with a creature that died 100 years ago. So all one really has left are C-14 dates and index fossils, but C-14 could be the undoing of the geological column. Live by the sword of C-14, die by the sword of C-14. Thanks for you comment. Salscordova
May 29, 2013
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Long term radiometric dating rests on a solid theoretical basis, and barring a serious development in physics (which I hope transpires), the YECs know their case faces challenges because of long half-life radio isotopes and the absence of medium-life radio isotopes. But as far as I can seen, one can still falsify the age of specific fossils without having to invoke a Young Earth. It’s not the victory that the YECs want, but this is one case, I think a valid, non-religious, secular, skeptical, scientific critique can be made about the validity of the age of certain fossils, if not entire layers of the “column”.
I agree with you that this is a serious challenge for YEC ideas, but here is where theories about the global flood come in that might help to show the decay rate was not always consistent. This becomes a creationist just so story I guess, but if we take the biblical record as true, there must be an explanation somewhere. That is our approach. But I agree that we should be able to prove that certain fossils are NOT millions of years old like claimed. And if not, that has serious implications for evolutionary theory! Again, you are probably familiar with these arguments against radiometric dating and the problems with radiometric dating, but just for fun, here are a bunch of articles on it from a creationist perspective: http://creation.com/radiometric-dating-questions-and-answers See especially the section entitled: Is there any evidence that the radioactive decay rate might not have been constant?" I didn't find anything about the "absence of medium-life radio isotopes" though.tjguy
May 29, 2013
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Thanks for having the courage to honestly examine this matter. It seems you haven’t totally forsaken your YEC roots.
One does not have to begin with the premise of YEC to conclude that the claims of the old ages of fossils have serious empirical difficulties.
True. However, when we give up that premise, then it becomes just opinion and whose just so story makes more sense. There is the red blood cell find in dinosaur fossils, but most evolutionists just ignore it or deny it or claim contamination because they already KNOW it is an impossibility. Plus, they KNOW the earth is old because they have mountains of evidence for evolution already. This precludes them from honestly considering this idea of a young earth. Any just so story is rationalized and accepted because they already KNOW the earth is old. So I don't see much of a difference.
Neither side, creationist or evolutionist, has a conflict-free model of history. But that is not to say that one side might not prevail on empirical grounds eventually in the light of future scientific discoveries. .... My aim then is not to argue that the accepted mainstream model of the history of life is definitely wrong, but rather it can’t be definitely right given what we already know. Skepticism is in order, and thankfully it doesn’t stop there, skepticism might lead to novel, innovative research to settle the conflicts.
True. Neither side has all the answers. That is to be expected because we are dealing with history - unobservable, unrepeatable, untestable history. So I seriously doubt either side can prevail on empirical grounds alone. How can you fight a just so story? Creationists would agree with the importance of skepticism, but like I mentioned, we might question whether the dispute can actually be indisputably settled by empirical means alone. But who knows? Maybe irrefutable proof or very strong proof might be found some day. Lots of other scientific certainties have been overturned in the past. Why not this? Even some of the responses you got show that you can find a story to explain the evidence if you try hard enough. So given the fact that an old earth is overwhelmingly the dominant view of scientists, just so stories to explain the creationist evidence will always be preferable I think.
At best we have layers created by catastrophes, and then long periods of stasis in between. The bottom line is, the formation of most of the fossil layers of “column” could not have taken place over millions of years even in principle. We have to imagine the long periods of stasis are actually represented, because the fossil layers themselves must have formed in a few years if not a few minutes! For the Darwinian story to hold, one has to fortuitously interleave highly fotuitous catastrophes followed by long eras of stasis and do this for each of the layers.
Here is a specific example of this very problem: CEH: What Is the Evidence for Feathers Before Flight? http://crev.info/2013/05/what-is-the-evidence-for-feathers-before-flight/
There is little question that there is some difficulty in reconciling present erosion rates with standard geochronology.
So where does that leave uniformitarianism? If not falsified(something hard to do in evolutionary theory), it should certainly be brought into question at least. You have brought to light a lot of the empirical evidence creationists point to in support of their view here and for that I am grateful. Too often people are ignorant of what evidence actually does exist! By the way, along those lines, I would be curious as to what you think of this article: “101 Evidences for a Young Age of the Earth and the Creation” creation.com/age-of-the-earth? I’m assuming you are familiar with it. Good article!tjguy
May 29, 2013
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He threw a fit at the suggestion but reluctantly conceded that to get really good fossils, one needs water and rapid burial.
Why did he concede your point? Dinosaurs are not used as index fossils.DiEb
May 29, 2013
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p.s. just noticed this reference from the creation.com article... it has some data: http://newgeology.us/presentation48.htmlJGuy
May 28, 2013
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Sal, Glad you liked it. This is the article that original pointed - or lead - me to the video. Apparently, the data/slides associated with this portion of the conference were removed from public view. You can read a bit of background on the presentation from there: http://creation.com/c14-dinosJGuy
May 28, 2013
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Sal, You liked Joe Coder’s report. Here is a video on the carbon 14 data (same or related). Watch it this one before it’s taken down: http://youtu.be/QbdH3l1UjPQ
AWESOME!!!! Thanks. Man, I'm behind the curve in terms of recent developments. All the comments here are getting me back up to speed. Thanks JGuy, thanks everyone else too. I decided to download real player and save this lecture. This is the first time I've ever saved a video. I don't want to lose this one! Salscordova
May 28, 2013
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Of course they could always claim contamination, but well, it seems like the respectable thing to do is at least try. If we get systematic “errors” indicating youth, that is still a data point that must be accounted for if we want a rigorous inquiry.
http://www.detectingdesign.com/carbon14.html#ContaminationJGuy
May 28, 2013
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Imagine that we actually found a place on Earth that has geologic layers representing every geologic time period. That would mean that that location has been experiencing steady (more or less) sedimentation, essentially non-stop, and never erosion, nor any other disruption, for about a billion years. Such a thing is so remarkable, that if such a thing were found, it would surely be used as evidence against “old earth” theories of geology.
There are some claims the entire (Phranezoic from 600 million years to today) "column" exists in some spots. At issue how well represented every layer is. I think one can make credible arguments against specific old fossils without having to invoke a Young Earth. The dino fossils, living bacteria in amber, that bothers me a lot. Long term radiometric dating rests on a solid theoretical basis, and barring a serious development in physics (which I hope transpires), the YECs know their case faces challenges because of long half-life radio isotopes and the absence of medium-life radio isotopes. But as far as I can seen, one can still falsify the age of specific fossils without having to invoke a Young Earth. It's not the victory that the YECs want, but this is one case, I think a valid, non-religious, secular, skeptical, scientific critique can be made about the validity of the age of certain fossils, if not entire layers of the "column". C-14 dating is a double edged sword, it can be used on "old" fossils as well, if paleontologists are willing to allow it. Of course they could always claim contamination, but well, it seems like the respectable thing to do is at least try. If we get systematic "errors" indicating youth, that is still a data point that must be accounted for if we want a rigorous inquiry.scordova
May 28, 2013
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Also, that numerous spots on Earth have different layers speaks against the idea that a single event like the “Flood” can explain earth’s geology. This is, of course, one reason that even catastrophists long rejected that a single event could explain most geology, but instead proposed numerous large scale events.
The global flood recorded in Genesis would not be merely a single watery/flood event. The biblical model would account for an 'ice-age' and hundreds of years of subsequent regional scale catastrophes. Even-so, specifically proving or not the global flood isn't the aim of Sal's blog posting here. Numerous catastrophic watery events events would be just as consistent with his argument, as I understand it.JGuy
May 28, 2013
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Hi Barb,
The problem with this theory was noted in 1958. Further observing that there is no actual “record of the rocks” in their assumed order is the following admission from the work Introduction to Geology (1958; p. 11) by H. E. Brown, V. E. Monnett and J. W. Stovall: “Whatever his method of approach, the geologist must take cognizance of the following facts. . . . There is no place on the earth where a complete record of the rocks is present.
Imagine that we actually found a place on Earth that has geologic layers representing every geologic time period. That would mean that that location has been experiencing steady (more or less) sedimentation, essentially non-stop, and never erosion, nor any other disruption, for about a billion years. Such a thing is so remarkable, that if such a thing were found, it would surely be used as evidence against "old earth" theories of geology. Also, that numerous spots on Earth have different layers speaks against the idea that a single event like the "Flood" can explain earth's geology. This is, of course, one reason that even catastrophists long rejected that a single event could explain most geology, but instead proposed numerous large scale events.
But not only that. Often geologists have found rock layers resting on one another in the reverse order; that is, a stratum having fossils of simple organisms on top of one having more complex ones.
Yes, but that's due to processes that have been understood going back hundreds of years. Steno spoke about such processes, and the ideas were further refined by catastrophists long before the uniformitarians or evolutionists arrived on the scene. The uniformitarians and catastrophists disagreed on many things, but among the things they agreed on was the chronological order of the geologic layers.goodusername
May 28, 2013
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Sal, You liked Joe Coder's report. Here is a video on the carbon 14 data (same or related). Watch it this one before it's taken down: http://youtu.be/QbdH3l1UjPQ This one is by a creationist on the same (or similar) data: http://youtu.be/q7Yp2Psykfw Finally, here's the actual call to Jack Horner: http://youtu.be/8T3rEX4zq_4JGuy
May 28, 2013
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One of my favorite fossil record mind-benders (if one were to accept the old gradual geologic column hypothesis):
There are so many other features of the geologic column and fossil record that seem just as difficult, if not more so, for the notion that very long periods of time are represented. For example, it seems that many land animals, excluding birds and mammals, do not generally have their footprints located in the same layer in which their bodies are found, but in lower layers.56 Did the footprints evolve before they did? The footprints of dinosaurs, for example, are generally located in lower levels than the actual fossilized bones of the dinosaurs.1,56,82 Why would this be? What is there to explain this apparent sorting of body from footprint fossils? Leonard Brand and James Florence comment on this most interesting phenomenon:
If the geologic column represents sediments that have accumulated over many millions of years, and the fossils from each geologic period are the remains of animals living in successive time periods, it would be reasonable to expect that the stratigraphic patterns of footprint diversity should roughly parallel the patterns of equivalent body fossil diversity.56
Source: http://www.detectingdesign.com/fossilrecord.html Ref in source: 56. http://www.grisda.org/origins/09067.htmJGuy
May 28, 2013
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Two contributions to the discussion: (1) If you haven't heard or read about it, here's an impressive catastrophic evidence. Steve Austin's findings on vast stretches of nautiloid fossils with similar directional orientation.: http://youtu.be/RaOhaNO9cP0 (2) Some key problems with the evolutionary interpretation of the fossil record is questioned well in this video. (note ideas pertaining to living fossils - don't assume you know what will be said about that as an issue). Presented by Ian Juby: http://youtu.be/lTWZJBXAZJAJGuy
May 28, 2013
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I highly recommend picking up Milton's book; I have my own copy at home. It's a fascinating read. As I pointed out in another thread, Darwin seized on Lyell's interpretation of geology for his "Origin of Species" because this offered him what he needed for evolution to have occurred: unlimited time. Uniformitarianism provided that. Afterwards, geology and biology became intertwined with geologists explaining their discoveries in light of evolution. The problem with this theory was noted in 1958. Further observing that there is no actual “record of the rocks” in their assumed order is the following admission from the work Introduction to Geology (1958; p. 11) by H. E. Brown, V. E. Monnett and J. W. Stovall: “Whatever his method of approach, the geologist must take cognizance of the following facts. . . . There is no place on the earth where a complete record of the rocks is present. Some areas have been the sites of deposition of sediment for millions of years, whereas other regions have been subjected to the wearing action of natural agencies for equal periods of time. To reconstruct the history of the earth, scattered bits of information from thousands of locations all over the world must be pieced together. The results will be at best only a very incomplete record. If the complete story of the earth is compared to an encyclopedia of thirty volumes, then we can seldom hope to find even one complete volume in a given area. Sometimes only a few chapters, perhaps only a paragraph or two, will be the total geological contribution of a region; indeed, we are often reduced to studying scattered bits of information more nearly comparable to a few words or letters.” In other words, the entire geologic column, with its high-sounding eras, periods and epochs, is merely a matter of guesswork, a hypothetical structure. There is no place on earth where such a succession of rock strata exists. But not only that. Often geologists have found rock layers resting on one another in the reverse order; that is, a stratum having fossils of simple organisms on top of one having more complex ones. Byron C. Nelson, in his book The Deluge Story in Stone, refers to an area comprising part of Montana, Alberta and British Columbia, fully 7,000 square miles, where Precambrian rock (said to be formed over a thousand million years ago) lies above “Cretaceous” strata (which are supposed to be less than two hundred and fifty thousand years old).Barb
May 28, 2013
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AMEN AMEN AMEN The fossil sequences, descent and process, are based on deposition events. Evolutionary biology is nothing without the geology. Nothing but a hunch. There is no column anywhere but only segregated types of fossils here and there overlying each other. Then they add them up from different areas and behold a column is invoked to be holding a story of evolution. Great post here but it can go further. if the geology is being questioned on UD here then why not reason as follows. That if the geology is wrong then the biology conclusions are wrong. If the biology conclusions are wrong then it means these conclusions were NEVER based on biological investigation but only were using biological data points and then using geological presumptions of strata/time and the dots were connected. I n short geology has been used by evolution to make biological conclusions that are not made by the mere evidence from biology. Its been a grand logical fallacy. Evolutionary biology is not a biological theory but only a hypothesis. Its main points are geological points with minor data points of biology thrown in. if evolution didn't have the fossils and the ideas about where they are found would evolution have any evidence?? No!!Robert Byers
May 28, 2013
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Here is a curious admission from TalkOrigins:
all plants postdate the Cambrian, and flowering plants, by far the dominant form of land life today, only appeared about 140 Mya (Brown 1999). http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC300.html
So TalkOrigins claims there were no plants in the Cambrian about 500 million years ago but the flowering plants appeared 140 million years ago. But that is contraverted by this 1952 article from Nature "“Spores and Tracheids from the Cambrian of Kashmir,” http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v169/n4312/abs/1691056a0.html Which means we have fossils making a surprise apperacnce about 360 million years before they were supposed to appear. So did the paleo community just decide we can't assume plants existed in the Cambrian, that the 1952 paper in nature was a mistake, and any future discoveries of Cambrian plants is just a contamination error? So any time we get an anomaly, is it just swept under the rug as some sort of contamination rather than a counterexample to the prevailing paradigm? Whenever observations can just be cherry picked to conform to a prevailing story, it effectively immunizes itself from any possibility of falsification. If this sort of cherry picking is routine, no falsification is possible. And last but not least, from the NCSE website: Man Contemporary with Dinosaurs
Only one step separated me from a terrace on the slope of Mount Kugitang-tau in southeast Turkmenia. I took the step and . . . entered a period of the Mesozoic, which is separated from today by a gap of almost 150 million years. Right from my feet ran a trail of dinosaur footprints. It was as though these fossil giants had passed by quite recently, leaving behind deep prints of their gigantic feet?one and a half meters apart. As I was later told by the paleontologists, with this distance between the footprints, the height of the animals that left them must be eight to twelve meters. All of a sudden we saw some not very distinct, though distinguishable, footprints beside a huge three-toed footprint of a dinosaur. They were similar to those of humans. At least they appeared so to anyone who saw them for the first time. I am not a scientist, yet I dared propose a hypothesis: "Who knows, could our ancient ancestor have been a contemporary of the dinosaur?" "In the future science may give a positive answer to this question," said Professor Kurban Amanniazov, the leader of the expedition, a correspondent of the Academy of Science of the Turkmen Soviet Socialist Republic, and the director of the Geologic Institute of the Turkmen Academy of Science. "If it could be proved that these are really footprints of an anthropoid being, it would bring about a revolution in anthropology. The human race would become thirty times older, and its history would be extended to 150 million years."
So the thought isn't outrageous to the Russians. Credit the NCSE for being transparent for a change about possible, radical developments.scordova
May 27, 2013
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Here is a report of rapid burial as I described: The World's Largest Fossil Wilderness
That's when an earthquake suddenly lowered the swamp 15 to 30 feet and mud and sand rushed in, covering everything with sediment and killing trees and other plants. "It must have happened in a matter of weeks," says Elrick. "What we see here is the death of a peat swamp, a moment in geologic time frozen by an accident of nature."
1. it is only speculated it was an earthquake that caused the sudden death of this forrest 2. it is widely agreed that the fossilzation process did not take millions of years, weeks is the figure provided 3. a deposition of 15 to 30 feet in a few weeks at most, not millions of years 4. what of the other presumed layers in the "column". From what I hear, this is typical, the other layers of the "column" aren't usually found at a dig site. 5. the fossilization was the result of an accident, a catastrophe, not slow gradual process 6. what is depicted is the snapshot of weeks at the most, not hundreds of millions of years, it is only presumed that the samples are hundreds of millions of years old. 7. no mention of c-14 dating, if c-14 is present, then these are recent fossils not fossils hundreds of millions of years old. That is a testable hypothesis. :-)scordova
May 27, 2013
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