Do atheists find meaning in life from inventing fairy tales?

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March 29, 2018

Atheism, Culture, Naturalism

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From Richard Weikart at the Federalist:

The 2018 study in question by David Speed, et al, “What Do You Mean, ‘What Does It All Mean?’ Atheism, Nonreligion, and Life Meaning,” used surveys to try to figure out if atheists find meaning in life or are nihilistic. This survey defined someone as nihilistic if he or she upheld the position: “In my opinion, life does not serve any purpose.”

This study found that atheists and non-religious people are not nihilistic, because they claimed that they did have a purpose in life. This is an interesting finding that seems to refute the oft-repeated charge (levied by religious folks) that atheists are nihilistic.

However, there is a problem with this finding. The survey admitted the meaning that atheists and non-religious people found in their lives is entirely self-invented. According to the survey, they embraced the position: “Life is only meaningful if you provide the meaning yourself.”

Thus, when religious people say non-religious people have no basis for finding meaning in life, and when non-religious people object, saying they do indeed find meaning in life, they are not talking about the same thing. More.

Study. (public access)

Didn’t fairy tales used to be Hollywood’s specialty?

See also: Can science survive long in a post-modern world? It’s not clear.

Comments

Seversky- If you read "The Privileged Planet" the evidence points to a universe designed for scientific discovery. The evidence says the earth was intelligently designed. The purpose of the rivers is to move and dissolve minerals and nutrients. To irrigate the lands. Lightning produces nitrates which then rain down and become fertilizer. Those details. The bad bacteria could have been designed it is just that it is harmful to us. Cars aren't designed to harm us but they do. But we know that mutations happen.
And talking of design in biology, what designer in his, her or its right mind would employ materials or systems that were bound to mutate away from their original purpose within the foreseeable future?
It cannot be helped in the physical world-> entropy and all.
Would Boeing or Airbus engineers designing the next generation of airliner build it using a metal that they knew could mutate into rubber within the lifetime of the design? I doubt that would be very good for business.
When they can grow a jet from a single cell let us know. When they can just design that cell and have it produce a fleet of jets, let us know. Otherwise you are just talking out of your bottom.ET_{April 1, 2018
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Allan Keith:
E.coli is tested because it’s presence is an indication of faecal contamination. And if there is faecal contamination, there may be the presence of pathogens associated with faecal matter.
Right, rogue E coli is such a pathogen.
So, the purpose of bacteria is to allow other things to live and to thrive
It's part of the design. Inert dirt isn't any good.ET_{April 1, 2018
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Do we agree there is a difference between 'purpose' and 'function'? As I see it, put simply, 'function' is just what something does whereas as 'purpose' is an end or objective conceived in the mind of an intelligent agent capable of such thought. You could say that the function of both a river and a canal is to move water from one place to another. That is what they do. But one of them - the canal - was designed to perform that function by human engineers, so that is also its purpose. The river does much the same thing but - so far as we can tell - it was not designed. There are a huge number of bacteria on this planet, some of which are harmful or even lethal to human beings but other of which are beneficial or even essential to human life and other living things. Do we have any reason for believing that the beneficial ones were designed for the good of humanity whereas the harmful ones were not designed? And talking of design in biology, what designer in his, her or its right mind would employ materials or systems that were bound to mutate away from their original purpose within the foreseeable future? Would Boeing or Airbus engineers designing the next generation of airliner build it using a metal that they knew could mutate into rubber within the lifetime of the design? I doubt that would be very good for business.Seversky_{April 1, 2018
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"You will never know how little that affects me." Alas, I do know. Conceit rarely allows one a true measure of ones true stature among his peers. Regardless of how enamored you are by your own opinions, I find them to be utterly void of anything resembling a solid foundation., i.e. They are worthless. And I am sure you will continue lying to yourself that your opinions are above reproach. Which I find to be pathetic! Thus since you are hopeless, my goal, and purpose, has been to expose you for the fraud you are. Thanks for cooperating so magnanimously in this endeavor! :)bornagain77_{April 1, 2018
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ET,
Wow, for a guess it is spot on!
Not even close. E.coli is tested because it’s presence is an indication of faecal contamination. And if there is faecal contamination, there may be the presence of pathogens associated with faecal matter. The test is not even capable of detecting the pathogenic strains of E. coli.
Purpose.
So, the purpose of bacteria is to allow other things to live and to thrive. Thanks for clarifying what your opinion is.Allan Keith_{April 1, 2018
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Allan Keith:
Nice guess.
Wow, for a guess it is spot on!
But is that their purpose, or a consequence of their existence and proliferation?
Purpose.ET_{April 1, 2018
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ET,
Bacteria are required for healthy soil. They are required to make cheese- there that’s anthropocentric for ya. They help us digest our food. They help other organisms digest their food.
All very true. But is that their purpose, or a consequence of their existence and proliferation?Allan Keith_{April 1, 2018
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BA77,
You have certainly not earned my respect!
You will never know how little that affects me.Allan Keith_{April 1, 2018
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ET,
The reason we test water is because someone or some people got sick and/ or died by drinking that which we need to live. It’s a cause and effect thing that you seem to have trouble with. In this case the cause was most likely one or more bad strains of E coli- bad for us.
Nice guess. Would you like to try for double or nothing?Allan Keith_{April 1, 2018
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Bacteria are required for healthy soil. They are required to make cheese- there that's anthropocentric for ya. They help us digest our food. They help other organisms digest their food.ET_{April 1, 2018
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Allan Keith:
How is that an answer to why we test drinking warer for E. coli?
The reason we test water is because someone or some people got sick and/ or died by drinking that which we need to live. It's a cause and effect thing that you seem to have trouble with. In this case the cause was most likely one or more bad strains of E coli- bad for us
The test that is used doesn’t even detect E. coli 0157.
And? We don't want to take any chances so we eradicate E coli from the water. Ya see, we know what tests OK now can- wait for it- mutate and become harmful. Then there is our genetic entropy to consider also.ET_{April 1, 2018
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AK, respect is primarily earned from others, respecting oneself over and above others is called conceit. You have certainly not earned my respect! Moreover, there is no 'you' to respect under the premises of reductive materialism, Only a neuronal illusion that seeks to have some sort of illusory respect that is gained from upholding some illusory standards of righteousness. Quit being a coward and embrace your nihilism man! Anything you do, say, or think is completely meaningless under atheistic materialism.
When you die, you’re not going to be surprised, because you’re going to be completely dead. Now if I find myself aware after I’m dead, I’m going to be really surprised! But at least I’m going to go to hell, where I won’t have all of those grinning preachers from Sunday morning listening. Let me summarize my views on what modern evolutionary biology tells us loud and clear — and these are basically Darwin’s views. There are no gods, no purposes, and no goal-directed forces of any kind. There is no life after death. When I die, I am absolutely certain that I am going to be dead. That’s the end of me. There is no ultimate foundation for ethics, no ultimate meaning in life, and no free will for humans, either." William Provine https://evolutionnews.org/2015/09/william_provine/
Unfortunately for Provine and other atheists. There most certainly is a heaven and hell, and there most certainly is life after death:
Quantum Mechanics, Special Relativity, General Relativity and Christianity - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKggH8jO0pk Darwinian Materialism vs. Quantum Biology - video https://youtu.be/LHdD2Am1g5Y
bornagain77_{April 1, 2018
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ET,
Allan Keith- The only flaw is you.
I will take that with the respect it is due.
Already covered- random mutations to a once good design.
How is that an answer to why we test drinking warer for E. coli? The test that is used doesn’t even detect E. coli 0157.Allan Keith_{April 1, 2018
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AK @ 94:
Humans could be wiped off the face of the earth and the rest of the biosphere would hardly notice.
I think proponents of artificial global warming would strongly disagree. You seem to be demanding that BA77 and ET justify your metaphysical axiom, the Copernican principle, when it's absolutely unnecessary, even contradictory, to their point. If you were Bugs Bunny, perhaps you could have them hold that slingshot while you pull it away from them and load a rhetorical rock ala "Rabbit Punch". AS ET says, there are commensal and pathogenic strains of E.Coli that are genetically distinct. Bacterial infections can be "opportunistic", i.e. beneficial or even necessary but harmful in the wrong place. Similarly, formaldehyde is a necessary metabolic agent, and we have enzymes in the very necessary lysosomes of every cell that could melt us right down and become an issue when penetrated by insoluble asbestos fibers. If the block cracks in the car engine, water can enter the oil circuit, causing destructive corrosion. Necessary operating configuration and system failure doesn't contradict meaning; in fact, it's only through purpose ascribed to function, that necessary operating configurations and system failure can even be considered.LocalMinimum_{April 1, 2018
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Allan Keith- The only flaw is you.
And for extra points, if the purpose of E. coli is to aid in digestion, why do we test for it in drinking water and issue boil water orders when it is found?
Already covered- random mutations to a once good design.ET_{April 1, 2018
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AK, the only flawed reasoning is your Darwinian reasoning (as if materialism, in its denial of free will, could even provide a coherent basis for reasoning in the first place). The Darwinian presupposition is that there is no purpose for anything, i.e. no teleology. As Provine himself admitted:
"Let me summarize my views on what modern evolutionary biology tells us loud and clear — and these are basically Darwin’s views. There are no gods, no purposes, and no goal-directed forces of any kind." - William Provine
Yet, as I have already shown in post 67, science itself is dependent on teleology. Moreover, biology itself is replete with teleological language,,,, https://uncommondescent.com/culture/do-atheists-find-meaning-in-life-from-inventing-fairy-tales/#comment-655236 ... and thus falsifies the primary Darwinian presupposition of "no purposes, and no goal-directed forces of any kind." Moreover, if I wanted to establish the anthropocentric view of reality as correct, I wouldn't mess around with bacteria, but I would go straight to the heart of the matter and show that General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics, (our best theories in science by far), have both now overturned the Copernican principle and/or the 'principle of mediocrity'. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/astronomer-the-star-wars-we-grew-up-with-are-over-the-real-universe-is-lonelier/#comment-654880 ,,, As well I would have referenced the fact that human beings alone, among all creatures on earth, possess a unique ability to understand and create information, and have come to 'master the planet', not through brute force as Darwinists would presuppose, but through this unique ability to infuse information into material substrates. Moreover, both the universe and life itself are found to be 'information theoretic' in their foundational basis.
Leading Evolutionary Scientists Admit We Have No Evolutionary Explanation of Human Language – December 19, 2014 Excerpt: Understanding the evolution of language requires evidence regarding origins and processes that led to change. In the last 40 years, there has been an explosion of research on this problem as well as a sense that considerable progress has been made. We argue instead that the richness of ideas is accompanied by a poverty of evidence, with essentially no explanation of how and why our linguistic computations and representations evolved.,,, (Marc Hauser, Charles Yang, Robert Berwick, Ian Tattersall, Michael J. Ryan, Jeffrey Watumull, Noam Chomsky and Richard C. Lewontin, “The mystery of language evolution,” Frontiers in Psychology, Vol 5:401 (May 7, 2014).) Casey Luskin added: “It’s difficult to imagine much stronger words from a more prestigious collection of experts.” http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/12/leading_evoluti092141.html Humanity - Chemical Scum or Made in the Image of God? - video https://youtu.be/ElBWAwjPzyM
It is hard to imagine a more convincing scientific proof that we are made ‘in the image of God’ than finding both the universe, and life itself, are both ‘information theoretic’ in their foundational basis, and that we, of all the creatures on earth, uniquely possess an ability to understand and create information, and, moreover, have come to ‘master the planet’ precisely because of our unique ability infuse information into material substrates.
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made. In Him was life, and that life was the Light of men.
Perhaps a more convincing evidence that we are made in the image of God and that our lives have meaning and purpose could be if God Himself became a man, defeated death on a cross, and then rose from the dead to prove that He was indeed God. But who has ever heard of such a thing as that?
“Christianity is not merely religious truth, it is total truth — truth about the whole of reality.” - Francis Schaeffer - Copernican Principle, Agent Causality, and Jesus Christ as the “Theory of Everything” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NziDraiPiOw Colossians 1:15-20 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. Matthew 28:18 Jesus came to them and said: I have been given all authority in heaven and on earth! Shroud of Turin: From discovery of Photographic Negative, to 3D Information, to Quantum Hologram – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-TL4QOCiis&list=PLtAP1KN7ahia8hmDlCYEKifQ8n65oNpQ5&index=5
Thus in conclusion, far from what atheists profess to believe,,,, that they are basically just chemical scum whose lives have no more meaning than slime mold, the fact of the matter is that multiple lines of evidence from science itself attest to the fact that each of us have far more significance and meaning in this universe than what Darwinists have presupposed.bornagain77_{April 1, 2018
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Allan Keith @
AK: ET and yourself are still cantering on the purpose of bacteria and viruses with respect to humans.
Like "function", "purpose" is always with respect to something else. Baking bread has no purpose on its own, it has purpose (to feed) with respect to something else (e.g. hungry people).
AK: Why are we not talking about the purpose of the bacteria?
Relative to what? Again, "purpose" does not exist in isolation. When you ask about the purpose of something you should also specify the thing to which purpose relates.Origenes_{April 1, 2018
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BA77, you have just used ET’s flawed reasoning with the only difference being that you have gone from anthropocentric to mammalcentric. Your examples are of human pathogens whose ancestral form were non-pathogenic and, sometimes, beneficial to other mammals. But this discussion is about. ET and yourself are still cantering on the purpose of bacteria and viruses with respect to humans. Why are we not talking about the purpose of the bacteria? When we talk about the purpose and meaning of human life, we never talk about existing for the purpose of spreading the cold virus, or that we exist to press rats, cats and pigs throughout the world. Yet when we talk about the purpose and meaning of other life forms it is often in respect to how they benefit humans, either directly or indirectly. Humans could be wiped off the face of the earth and the rest of the biosphere would hardly notice. And for extra points, if the purpose of E. coli is to aid in digestion, why do we test for it in drinking water and issue boil water orders when it is found?Allan Keith_{April 1, 2018
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BA77 -- Very good posts.tribune7_{April 1, 2018
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Yet, AK and other Darwinists are apparently completely oblivious to this clear falsification of Darwinian theory and instead concentrate on the theologically based 'argument from evil', i.e. 'God would never allow pathogens to exist'. Yet, much like their extremely naive science that collapses upon inspection, the atheist's 'argument from evil' also reflects an extremely naive theology that collapses upon only cursory inspection. As Dr. Michael Egnor states "Even to raise the problem of evil is to tacitly acknowledge transcendent standards, and thus to acknowledge God’s existence. From that starting point, theodicy begins. Theists have explored it profoundly. Atheists lack the standing even to ask the question.,,,"
The Universe Reflects a Mind - Michael Egnor - February 28, 2018 Excerpt: Goff argues that a Mind is manifest in the natural world, but he discounts the existence of God because of the problem of evil. Goff seriously misunderstands the problem of evil. Evil is an insoluble problem for atheists, because if there is no God, there is no objective standard by which evil and good can exist or can even be defined. If God does not exist, “good” and “evil” are merely human opinions. Yet we all know, as Kant observed, that some things are evil in themselves, and not merely as a matter of opinion. Even to raise the problem of evil is to tacitly acknowledge transcendent standards, and thus to acknowledge God’s existence. From that starting point, theodicy begins. Theists have explored it profoundly. Atheists lack the standing even to ask the question.,,, https://evolutionnews.org/2018/02/the-universe-reflects-a-mind/
Feser also does an excellent job dismantling the 'argument from evil' in the following article.
This Theologian Has An Answer To Atheists’ Claims That Evil Disproves God - Jan, 2018 Excerpt: In “The Last Superstition: A Refutation Of The New Atheism,” Feser, echoing Thomas Aquinas, notes that the first premise of the problem of evil is “simply false, or at least unjustifiable.” According to Feser, there is no reason to believe that the Christian God, being all-good and all-powerful, would prevent suffering on this earth if out of suffering he could bring about a good that is far greater than any that would have existed otherwise. If God is infinite in power, knowledge, goodness, etc., then of course he could bring about such a good. Feser demonstrates his reasoning with an analogy. A parent may allow his child a small amount of suffering in frustration, sacrifice of time, and minor pain when learning to play the violin, in order to bring about the good of establishing proficiency. This is not to say that such minimal suffering is in any way comparable to the horrors that have gone on in this world. But the joy of establishing proficiency with a violin is not in any way comparable to the good that God promises to bring to the world. In Christian theology, this good is referred to as the Beatific Vision: the ultimate, direct self-communication of God to the individual. In other words, perfect salvation or Heaven. Feser describes the Beatific Vision as a joy so great that even the most terrible horror imaginable “pales in insignificance before the beatific vision.” As Saint Paul once said, “the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.” Your Argument Assumes Its Conclusion I can already see the disciples of the Four Horsemen readying their keyboards, opening a copy of Dawkins’ “The God Delusion,” and preparing their response. An atheist may claim that he cannot possibly imagine anything in the next life that could possibly outweigh the Holocaust, children’s suffering, or any other instance of significant suffering in this world. According to Feser, this response is precisely the reason he states that the problem of evil is “worthless” as an objection to arguments in favor of the existence of the Christian God. The problem is that the only way the atheist can claim that nothing could outweigh the most significant suffering on earth is if he supposes that God does not exist and therefore there is no Beatific Vision. But he cannot presume that God does not exist in the premise of an argument that aims to prove the conclusion that God does not exist. By doing so, he is begging the question, or arguing in a circle, and therefore does not prove anything at all. As Feser goes on to demonstrate, the atheist is essentially stating: “There is no God, because look at all this suffering that no good could possibly outweigh. How do I know there’s no good that could outweigh it? Oh, because there is no God.” http://thefederalist.com/2018/01/03/theologian-answer-new-atheists-claims-existence-evil-disproves-gods/
Christianity itself certainly does not shy away from the Darwinist's theologically based 'argument from evil':
The Problem of Evil by Benjamin D. Wiker - April 2009 Excerpt: We still want to cry, Job-like, to those inscrutable depths, "Who are you to orchestrate everything around us puny and pitiable creatures, leaving us shuddering in the darkness, ignorant, blasted, and buffeted? It‘s all well and good to say, ‘Trust me! It‘ll all be made right in the end,‘ while you float unscathed above it all. Grinding poverty, hunger, thirst, frustration, rejection, toil, death of our loved ones, blood-sweating anxiety, excruciating pain, humiliation, torture, and finally a twisted and miserable annihilation — that‘s the meal we‘re served! You‘d sing a different tune if you were one of us and got a taste of your own medicine." What could we say against these depths if the answer we received was not an argument but an incarnation, a full and free submission by God to the very evils about which we complain? This submission would be a kind of token, a sign that evil is very real indeed, bringing the incarnate God blood-sweating anxiety, excruciating pain, humiliation, torture, and finally a twisted and miserable annihilation on the cross. As real as such evil is, however, the resurrection reveals that it is somehow mysteriously comprehended within the divine plan. With the Incarnation, the reality of evil is absorbed into the deity, not dissolved into thin air, because God freely tastes the bitterness of the medicine as wounded healer, not distant doctor. Further, given the drastic nature of this solution, we begin to recognize that God takes the problem of evil more seriously than we could ever have taken it ourselves. ,,, http://www.crisismagazine.com/2009/the-problem-of-evil
Verses and video:
John 20:1-2 The Empty Tomb Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance. So she came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one Jesus loved, and said, “They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we don’t know where they have put him!” 1 Corinthians 15:55-57 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Turin Shroud Hologram Reveals The Words "The Lamb" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Tmka1l8GAQ Solid Oval Object Under The Beard http://shroud3d.com/findings/solid-oval-object-under-the-beard
bornagain77_{April 1, 2018
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As well, in the following study the researchers speculate that Ebola plays a beneficial role in its original host
Bats and Viruses: Friend or Foe? – 2013 Viral RNA specific to both Ebola and Marburg has been identified in a number of fruit bat species from Gabon and Democratic Republic of Congo,,, ,,,bats generally harbour viruses with no clinical signs of disease.,,, it seems unlikely that bats’ ability to asymptomatically carry viruses is a recently acquired trait.,,, Do Viruses Benefit the Host? The fact that bats harbour such a large number of viruses poses an important question: do these viruses provide any benefit to the host?,,, It seems plausible that some of the viruses that bats harbour may have oncolytic properties that confer antitumor activity to the host.,,, http://www.plospathogens.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.ppat.1003651
As well the AIDS virus is found to be non-pathogenetic in its original host.
“the AIDS virus originated relatively recently, as a mutation from SIV, the simian immuno-deficiency virus. According to Wikipedia, this virus was also benign in its original form:.. Unlike HIV-1 and HIV-2 infections in humans, SIV infections in their natural hosts appear in many cases to be non-pathogenic. Extensive studies in sooty mangabeys have established that SIVsmm infection does not cause any disease in these animals, despite high levels of circulating virus.” https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/macroevolution-microevolution-and-chemistry-the-devil-is-in-the-details/#comment-448372
The history of smallpox is much less well understood, but it appears that smallpox has also been benign for most of its history, like all the other diseases listed, and only recently became pathogenic:
On the origins of smallpox – where and when did variola virus emerge? – March 2011 Excerpt: Smallpox-like skin lesions have been observed on Egyptian mummies dating from as far back as 1580 B.C yet there is no mention of the disease at all in the Old or New testaments nor even the Hippocratic texts. There was some mention of a smallpox-like disease in China and India as early as 1500 B.C but the only unmistakable description can be found from the 4th century A.D in China. Interestingly there was no mention of smallpox in the American continents nor in sub-Saharan Africa prior to European exploration.,,, http://ruleof6ix.fieldofscience.com/2011/03/on-origins-of-smallpox-where-and-when.html
Thus contrary to the claims of a ‘evil designer’, the fact of the matter is that there is strong evidence to believe that the pathogens were originally benign, even beneficial, and only fairly recently became pathogenic due to genetic entropy. And it is also very good that genetic entropy is true. Sanford has shown that the destructive effects of pathogens on humans are fairly quickly modulated by information loss.
Evolution and the Ebola Virus: Pacing a Small Cage – Michael Behe – October 24, 2014 Excerpt: The high rate of mutation of Ebola is similar to what John Sanford has demonstrated for the H1N1 virus that caused the influenza pandemic after World War I. He makes a compelling case that the accumulating mutations there were degradatory could not be eliminated easily by selection, and eventually caused the virus’s extinction in 2009. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/10/evolution_and_t090621.html
Moreover, historians tell us that Malaria death tolls are nothing like what they used to be,
“The Portuguese... had imported so many African slaves into Portugal by the late fifteenth century that their falciparum malaria ignited a series of epidemics so intense that the Tagus valley was almost depopulated (Desowitz, 77).” Accounts of European settlements in the tropics and other populations report greater than 90% death toll from malaria and other tropical diseases.,,, http://rdparasites.blogspot.com/2014/04/malaria-killed-half-people-who-have.html Malaria death tolls are nothing like what they used to be, http://factmyth.com/factoids/malaria-killed-half-the-people-who-have-ever-lived/ No pathogen, including influenza virus (1918 pandemic), caused more deaths than malaria during 1905–1945. Early malaria epidemics had mortality rates of 60–70 deaths/1,000 persons; (and) rates were as high as 531 and 1,125 deaths/100,000 persons in Carabobo and Cojedes States in 1941 (2). http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/20/10/13-0917_article In 2012, malaria caused an estimated 207 million clinical episodes, and 627,000 deaths. An estimated 91% of deaths in 2010 were in the African Region. 2015 malaria caused 214 million clinical episodes, and 438,000 deaths. http://www.who.int/features/factfiles/malaria/en/
None of the preceding evidence is what AK needs to prove Darwinian evolution true. In fact, if AK were ever to become honest towards the evidence, he would have to admit that these findings directly contradict Darwinian presuppositions. In fact, if evolution by natural selection were actually the truth about how all life came to be on Earth then the only life that should be around should be extremely small organisms with the highest replication rate, and with the most 'mutational firepower', since only they, since they greatly outclass multi-cellular organism in terms of ‘reproductive success’ and 'mutational firepower', would be fittest to survive in the dog eat dog world where blind pitiless evolution ruled and only the fittest are allowed to survive. The logic of this is nicely summed up here in this Richard Dawkins' video:
Richard Dawkins interview with a 'Darwinian' physician goes off track - video Excerpt: "I am amazed, Richard, that what we call metazoans, multi-celled organisms, have actually been able to evolve, and the reason [for amazement] is that bacteria and viruses replicate so quickly -- a few hours sometimes, they can reproduce themselves -- that they can evolve very, very quickly. And we're stuck with twenty years at least between generations. How is it that we resist infection when they can evolve so quickly to find ways around our defenses?" http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/07/video_to_dawkin062031.html
In other words, since successful reproduction is all that really matters on a neo-Darwinian view of things, how can anything but successful, and highly efficient reproduction, be realistically 'selected' for? Any other function besides successful reproduction, such as much slower sexual reproduction, sight, hearing, thinking, etc.., would be highly superfluous to the primary criteria of successful reproduction, and should, on a Darwinian view, be discarded, and/or 'eaten', by bacteria, as so much excess baggage.bornagain77_{April 1, 2018
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AK, asks
Your argument is completely anthropocentric. E. coli 0157 can kill people. However, it is just part of the normal (and helpful) bacterial assemblage in ruminents. So, what is E. coli 0157’s inherent purpose?
Yet AK himself gave the answer. A major part of e. coli 0157’s inherent (and original) purpose is to help ruminant animals, (i.e. animals that chew their cud), digest their food.
A Guide to E. coli O157 in Cattle Excerpt: E. coli O157 is one particular serotype in the enterohemorrhagic category that has become a major concern for cattle producers and their customers because it sometimes causes human illness when introduced into the human intestine (but colonized cattle do not get sick). The feature that makes enterohemorrhagic bacteria like E. coli O157 so problematic is the fact that they produce poisons called Shiga toxins that can damage the lining of the human intestine and other tissues.1 https://www.zoetisus.com/_locale-assets/mcm-portal-assets/services/documents/srpecoli/e_coli_tech_manual_final.pdf
Where AK can see no purpose is where Darwinian processes have corrupted the original purpose of E. coli O157 and have turned e. coli 0157 into a pathogen that is harmful and sometimes even fatal for humans. There are many other examples of usually helpful microbes becoming pathogenic that AK could have chosen to highlight: For instance AK could have chosen the bubonic plague. Yet a genetic study has now shown that the bubonic plague (Black Death) was caused by loss of genes and streamlining (genetic entropy) of a non-pathogenic bacteria:
The independent evolution of harmful organisms from one bacterial family - April 21, 2014 Excerpt: "Before this study, there was uncertainty about what path these species took to become pathogenic: had they split from a shared common pathogenic ancestor? Or had they evolved independently",,, By examining the whole genomes of both the pathogenic and non-pathogenic species, they were able to determine that many of the metabolic functions, lost by the pathogenic species, were ancestral. These functions were probably important for growth in a range of niches, and have been lost rather than gained in specific family lines in the Yersinia family. "We commonly think bacteria must gain genes to allow them to become pathogens. However, we now know that the loss of genes and the streamlining of the pathogen's metabolic capabilities are key features in the evolution of these disease-causing bacteria," http://phys.org/news/2014-04-plague-family-independent-evolution-bacterial.html How small genetic change in Yersinia pestis changed human history - June 30, 2015 Excerpt: In the most ancestral of all currently existing Y. pestis strains, they showed how the bacteria could successfully colonize the lungs but could not cause the severe disease associated with pneumonic plague. The biggest difference they found between this strain and closely related strains that could cause pneumonic plague was a gene for the surface protein Pla. Lathem proposed that the bacteria's acquisition of the gene Pla enhanced its ability to cause infection in the lungs and was all that this ancestral strain of Y. pestis needed to produce a fatal lung infection. So Lathem and his team inserted the Pla gene into this strain to observe changes in the health of the lungs. They found the newly mutated strain had gained the ability to cause respiratory infection identically to modern strains of Y. pestis that cause disease today, demonstrating that the Pla gene was necessary for Y. pestis to infect the lungs. In addition, they found that no other changes to Y. pestis were required, even though the bacteria has continued to gain and lose genes over the last several thousand years. The lab also looked at variations of the gene Pla and discovered that a single modification only found in modern strains of Y. pestis was a critical adaptation for the bacteria to spread in the body and infect the lymph nodes, a form of the infection that causes bubonic plague. http://phys.org/news/2015-06-small-genetic-yersinia-pestis-human.html
That is not exactly what AK needs to prove Darwinian evolution true is it? Or AK could have chosen MRSA (superbug) bacteria to try to provide evidence for (purposeless) Darwinian processes being true. Yet MRSA (superbug) bacteria "are actually rather ‘wimpy’ compared to their close cousins."
(MRSA) Superbugs not super after all Excerpt: It is precisely because the mutations which give rise to resistance are in some form or another defects, that so-called supergerms are not really ‘super’ at all—they are actually rather ‘wimpy’ compared to their close cousins. http://creation.com/superbugs-not-super-after-all French Volcanic Clay Kills Antibiotic-Resistant MRSA Superbug Excerpt: I've heard of some people being told to "go roll around in the dirt" to get rid of their MRSA, and I've heard some reports of that working. I believe the effect was in "normalizing" their resident bacteria living on their skin. Just like in our digestive system, bacteria live in balance. Put more of the "good" guys in, and that will support your body being in balance. http://staph-infection-resources.blogspot.com/2008/04/french-volcanic-clay-kills-antibiotic.html MRSA - Supergerms Do they prove evolution? In places that are exposed to dirt from the street—such as your house—the supergerms are kept in their place not by powerful drugs and poisons but by competition with other germs. And their resistance genes are diluted by genes of the susceptible or non-resistant germs of the same species rather than being concentrated by selective breeding. That is why most non-hospital infections respond readily to antibiotics—the drug kills most of the germs, the body takes care of the rest. If it were not so, the so called supergerms would escape from hospitals and sweep the world. http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v11/i2/supergerms.asp Are You Too Clean? - New Studies Suggest Getting A Little Dirty May Be Just What The Doctor Ordered - December 2010 http://www.creationsafaris.com/crev201012.htm#20101208a
The same type of degradation can be found in the malaria pathogen.
Setting a Molecular Clock for Malaria Parasites – July 8, 2010 Excerpt: “Malaria parasites undoubtedly were relatively benign for most of that history (in humans), becoming a major disease only after the origins of agriculture and dense human populations,” said Ricklefs. http://www.nsf.gov/news/news_summ.jsp?cntn_id=117259 Genome sequencing of chimpanzee malaria parasites reveals possible pathways of adaptation to human hosts – 18 July 2014 In summary,,, homologues are found in all Plasmodium species, implying a universal and ancient role in the relationship between Plasmodium parasites and their vertebrate hosts. There are 568 rif genes in P. reichenowi and only 185 in P. falciparum, with the number of pseudogenes differing by a similar ratio (49 and 27, respectively; Table 2 and Fig. 2b). The number of stevor genes is also higher in P. reichenowi (66) than in P. falciparum (42). Successful colonization of humans is therefore clearly possible with a much reduced repertoire of these two important multigene families. http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/140909/ncomms5754/full/ncomms5754.html
bornagain77_{April 1, 2018
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Allan Keith:
If your response to anyone who criticizes one of your comments is to call them trolls, your discussions must be very short.
You didn't criticize anything, Allan. You just spewed some unsupported trope.
Your argument is completely anthropocentric.
Just saying it doesn't make it so.
E. coli 0157 can kill people. However, it is just part of the normal (and helpful) bacterial assemblage in ruminents. So, what is E. coli 0157’s inherent purpose?
To help ruminants digest their food- if what you say is true.ET_{April 1, 2018
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Allan So, what is E. coli 0157’s inherent purpose? What if ET (or I) can't give you the answer? What exactly does that prove? Did you see Stephan Hawking's final message to humanity: The theoretical physicist, who died on March 14, wrote how our universe will fade into nothingness as the stars rapidly lose their energy. https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/692841/stephen-hawking-funeral-today-Cambridge-professor-final-message So -- if you are a materialist -- what is the purpose of anything?tribune7_{March 31, 2018
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ET,
And I’ll take “trollish behaviors” for 200
If your response to anyone who criticizes one of your comments is to call them trolls, your discussions must be very short. Your argument is completely anthropocentric. E. coli 0157 can kill people. However, it is just part of the normal (and helpful) bacterial assemblage in ruminents. So, what is E. coli 0157’s inherent purpose?Allan Keith_{March 31, 2018
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And I'll take "trollish behaviors" for 200ET_{March 31, 2018
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ET,
Why can’t it be the purpose is the other helpful E. coli... the bad E coli is due to random mutations
I’ll take ‘Anthropocentruc Reasoning’ for $2000, Alex.Allan Keith_{March 31, 2018
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Final Jeopardy muzak is playing...ET_{March 31, 2018
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If that is what you believe then make your case. Just saying so is meaningless. I believe making unsupported accusations is trollish behavior.ET_{March 31, 2018
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I believe this is called ergo pst hoc reasoning, which is a logical fallacy.jdk_{March 31, 2018
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