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EG vs objective reality (pivoting on distinct identity)

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In a current thread frequent objector EG comments — and yes, I am catching up:

KF and others talk about “objective” as being something that is unchangeable. For example, homosexuality is objectively wrong. Always was, always will be. This doesn’t change with the times. But you argue that my preference of ice cream flavor is also objectively true. If my preference for ice cream is objective, and changeable, then other objective things, like moral values, are also changeable.

Nope.

For one, what I have said about objectivity (or rather, what Wikipedia has been forced to admit against obvious ideological inclination) is:

Objectivity is a philosophical concept of being true independently from individual subjectivity caused by perception, emotions, or imagination. A proposition is considered to have objective truth when its truth conditions are met without bias caused by a sentient subject. [Wikipedia, acc. 2019:11:17]

In the case of a taste for an ice cream flavour F1, it is true at a given time t1 that a particular subject S may wish by way of preference for F1, and that at subsequent time t2, may switch to F2. But it remains eternally true that at t1, S prefers F1. Such preference at that time being reportable and observable from choices often made. However, flavour preference is not a core defining characteristic or binding law of morally governed nature for S. (The attempted analogy regarding law of sexual morality, or first duties of right reason, etc thus fails immediately.)

The change from F1 to F2 does not fundamentally alter S’s core characteristics or nature, nor [under any reasonable circumstances] would such a change of habits potentially destabilise or undermine human thriving in a Categorical Imperative sense, even were it universalised.

Now, I have in fact made some personal observations on objectivity, e.g.:

>>. . . to be objective we need

[1] a framework that warrants claims as credibly true and so reliable, as well as

[2] a tolerably effective means of detecting and improving on our errors.

None of that requires that the domains so contemplated only comprise concrete, material entities. Or even that we have arrived at comprehensively absolute truth as a body, i.e. while we know some self evident and some other necessary plumb line truths, there is no need to assume or pretend that our system as a whole or for the most part is free of errors. Hence, the concept: improve on.
Here, we may next contrast degrees of truth:

[i] subjective truth as perceived to be so by some individual or group (which is not at all to be dismissively equated with delusion or imagination or whim), with 

[ii] absolute truth which is true, the whole material truth and nothing but that truth (say, as known to God [who knows perfectly and completely]), and again with 

[iii] objective truth, i.e. what we [who are finite and fallible but rational . . . ] may have good warrant and even a duty to hold as credibly and reliably true independent of our particular subjectivity (given the adequacy of the warrants) but which is open in principle to sound correction. 

 This then brings us to the crucial importance of known, inescapable first duties of right reason, to truth, to sound reasoning, to prudence (thus, to warrant), to sound conscience, to fairness and justice etc

Where, warrant is the process and result of so fulfilling cognitive duties of care that the said result is credibly true and reliable, worthy of being acted on — even, in those cases . . . the vast majority, in practice . . . that we cannot deliver utterly incorrigible certainty. Warrant, is not to be equated with mere persuasion, it is asking if the reason for a belief or opinion is sound or at least reliable (not, that we merely have a personal or collective right to it or that we may agree to accept it). Let us dip a little more deeply, to clarify warrant given the widespread tendencies of subjectivism and/or relativism:

DETAIL POINT: In effect, subjects S1 to Sn may agree to or hold a proposition p, but that is so far only opinion or belief that may be shared. They may also — a further step — be within epistemic rights to hold that p, but under certain circumstances . . . explored by Gettier and others . . . that personal justification and actual truth might be “accidentally” or otherwise “unreliably” connected due to circumstances faced by S1 to Sn that fail to justify independent of personalities and their particular situation. (For simple example, our visual, auditory and other senses can lose proper functionality or be in situations that create illusions, etc.) For p to be warranted (and notice the shift from subjects to the propositions), the connexion between epistemic rights and credible truth and reliability must not be accidental or personality/group-dependent. Warrant, in short, must be objective.

This is the context in which we therefore embark on logic, i.e.

LOGIC, DEF’N:  logic is the core philosophical discipline that systematically studies sound argument thus first principles of truth, reason and reliable warrant, exposing along the way the many pitfalls of error and ways of deceit — that is, fallacies.

DETAIL/ENRICHMENT POINT: For a survey on what Logic is, kindly see an in-a-nutshell focussed on the classic first three laws of thought — to be discussed further below — here. Enc. Brit online here, compare Catholic Enc here for a more traditional/aristotelian review, and a Bible-based 53 pp, pdf discussion for use in home schools here. IEP provides a list of 200+ “major” fallacies here.>>

The problem we obviously have, is that issues connected to core characteristics of our nature as rational, responsible, significantly free — and therefore, of that nature, morally governed — creatures, is being confused with matters of little or no import. Ultimately, that is because under evolutionary materialistic scientism we don’t have natures; we are just accidental collocations of certain organic molecules that somehow manage to have become self-replicating and found ways to survive from one generation to the next. Fellow traveller ideologies come along for the ride.

Such of course fatally undermines both the credibility of the mind and moral government. The invited nihilism is manifestly ruinous. END

Comments
Furthermore, mathematics, like morality, is also dependent on God for its existence. Gödel has shown, with his incompleteness theorems, that no scientific cosmology, which of necessity must be highly mathematical, can have its proof of consistency within itself as far as mathematics go. In absence of such consistency, all mathematical models,,, fall inherently short of being that theory which shows in virtue of its a priori truth that the world can only be what it is and nothing else. This is true even if the theory happened to account for perfect accuracy for all phenomena of the physical world known at a particular time.”
Gödel and Physics – John D. Barrow Excerpt (page 5-6): “Clearly then no scientific cosmology, which of necessity must be highly mathematical, can have its proof of consistency within itself as far as mathematics go. In absence of such consistency, all mathematical models, all theories of elementary particles, including the theory of quarks and gluons…fall inherently short of being that theory which shows in virtue of its a priori truth that the world can only be what it is and nothing else. This is true even if the theory happened to account for perfect accuracy for all phenomena of the physical world known at a particular time.” Stanley Jaki – Cosmos and Creator – 1980, pg. 49 http://arxiv.org/pdf/physics/0612253.pdf
To further clarify this point about Godel’s incompleteness theorems, DAVID P. GOLDMAN states that ‘we cannot construct an ontology that makes God dispensable. Secularists can dismiss this as a mere exercise within predefined rules of the game of mathematical logic, but that is sour grapes, for it was the secular side that hoped to substitute logic for God in the first place. Gödel’s critique of the continuum hypothesis has the same implication as his incompleteness theorems: Mathematics never will create the sort of closed system that sorts reality into neat boxes.’
THE GOD OF THE MATHEMATICIANS – DAVID P. GOLDMAN – August 2010 Excerpt: we cannot construct an ontology that makes God dispensable. Secularists can dismiss this as a mere exercise within predefined rules of the game of mathematical logic, but that is sour grapes, for it was the secular side that hoped to substitute logic for God in the first place. Gödel’s critique of the continuum hypothesis has the same implication as his incompleteness theorems: Mathematics never will create the sort of closed system that sorts reality into neat boxes. http://www.firstthings.com/article/2010/08/the-god-of-the-mathematicians
Moreover, Gregory Chaitin has extended Godel's Incompleteness theorem and has shown that, "an infinite number of true mathematical theorems exist that cannot be proved from any finite system of axioms."
The Limits Of Reason – Gregory Chaitin – 2006 Excerpt: Unlike Gödel’s approach, mine is based on measuring information and showing that some mathematical facts cannot be compressed into a theory because they are too complicated. This new approach suggests that what Gödel discovered was just the tip of the iceberg: an infinite number of true mathematical theorems exist that cannot be proved from any finite system of axioms. http://www.umcs.maine.edu/~chaitin/sciamer3.pdf
Thus, as Dr. Bruce Gordon points out in the following article, "The physical universe is causally incomplete and therefore neither self-originating nor self-sustaining. The world of space, time, matter and energy is dependent on a reality that transcends space, time, matter and energy. This transcendent reality cannot merely be a Platonic realm of mathematical descriptions, for such things are causally inert abstract entities that do not affect the material world,,, Rather, the transcendent reality on which our universe depends must be something that can exhibit agency – a mind that can choose among the infinite variety of mathematical descriptions and bring into existence a reality that corresponds to a consistent subset of them. This is what “breathes fire into the equations and makes a universe for them to describe.”
BRUCE GORDON: Hawking’s irrational arguments – October 2010 Excerpt: ,,,The physical universe is causally incomplete and therefore neither self-originating nor self-sustaining. The world of space, time, matter and energy is dependent on a reality that transcends space, time, matter and energy. This transcendent reality cannot merely be a Platonic realm of mathematical descriptions, for such things are causally inert abstract entities that do not affect the material world,,, Rather, the transcendent reality on which our universe depends must be something that can exhibit agency – a mind that can choose among the infinite variety of mathematical descriptions and bring into existence a reality that corresponds to a consistent subset of them. This is what “breathes fire into the equations and makes a universe for them to describe.” Anything else invokes random miracles as an explanatory principle and spells the end of scientific rationality. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/oct/1/hawking-irrational-arguments/
On top of all that, allowing the Agent causality of God ‘back’ into physics, as the Christian founders of modern science originally envisioned,,,, (Isaac Newton, Michael Faraday, James Clerk Maxwell, and Max Planck, to name a few of the Christian founders),,, and as quantum mechanics itself now empirically demands (with the closing of the free will loophole by Anton Zeilinger and company), by rightly allowing the Agent causality of God ‘back’ into physics then that provides us with a very plausible resolution for the much sought after ‘theory of everything’ in that Christ’s resurrection from the dead provides an empirically backed reconciliation, via the Shroud of Turin, between quantum mechanics and general relativity into the much sought after ‘Theory of Everything”. Here are a few posts where I lay out and defend some of the evidence for that claim:
Overturning of the Copernican Principle by both General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/we-are-invited-to-consider-a-simpler-perspective-on-the-laws-of-physics/#comment-680427 (February 19, 2019) To support Isabel Piczek’s claim that the Shroud of Turin does indeed reveal a true ‘event horizon’, the following study states that ‘The bottom part of the cloth (containing the dorsal image) would have born all the weight of the man’s supine body, yet the dorsal image is not encoded with a greater amount of intensity than the frontal image.’,,, Moreover, besides gravity being dealt with, the shroud also gives us evidence that Quantum Mechanics was dealt with. In the following paper, it was found that it was not possible to describe the image formation on the Shroud in classical terms but they found it necessary to describe the formation of the image on the Shroud in discrete quantum terms. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/experiment-quantum-particles-can-violate-the-mathematical-pigeonhole-principle/#comment-673178 https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/experiment-quantum-particles-can-violate-the-mathematical-pigeonhole-principle/#comment-673179
Thus in conclusion, with Jesus Christ himself providing the correct solution to the 'theory of everything' with His resurrection from the dead, I can think of no greater proof that mathematics and morality are both objectively real and that they are both inextricably bound together in God. Verse:
Colossians 1:15-20 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
bornagain77
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Now to establish the intuitive and objective existence of mathematics. Like morality, mathematics, again contrary to materialistic presuppositions, is also found to be innate in human babies.
Quantitative Reasoning In Babies: They Count Long Before They Talk - June 14th 2010 Excerpt: Babies can grasp information about numbers, space and time before they can speak, and they do so in more complex ways than previously realized, according to new research. In 1890 William James wrote in "The Principles of Psychology" that the baby's impression of the world as "one great blooming, buzzing confusion." But modern evidence indicates otherwise. Babies understand quantity quite well, say Emory University psychologist Stella Lourenco and University College London neuroscientist Matthew Longo, and so much earlier than thought. https://www.science20.com/news_articles/quantitative_reasoning_babies_they_count_long_they_talk
In fact, in one test babies outperformed toddlers in solving a logical puzzle
Adventures in Experimenting On Toddlers By Alison Gopnik Dec. 13, 2013 Excerpt: We did the experiment I just described with 18-to-24-month-olds. And they got it right, with just two examples. The secret was showing them real blocks on a real machine and asking them to use the blocks to make the machine go.,,, Now we are looking at another weird result. Although the 4-year-olds did well on the easier sequential task, in a study we're still working on, they actually seem to be doing worse than the babies on the harder simultaneous one. So there's a new problem for us to solve. http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304744304579248093386009168
Of related interest, "Because normal children struggle to learn multiplication and division, it is surprising that some savants perform integer arithmetic calculations mentally at "lightning" speeds. They do so unconsciously, without any apparent training, typically without being able to report on their methods, and often at an age when the normal child is struggling with elementary arithmetic concepts,,"
Is Integer Arithmetic Fundamental to Mental Processing?: The mind's secret arithmetic Excerpt: Because normal children struggle to learn multiplication and division, it is surprising that some savants perform integer arithmetic calculations mentally at "lightning" speeds (Treffert 1989, Myers 1903, Hill 1978, Smith 1983, Sacks 1985, Hermelin and O'Connor 1990, Welling 1994, Sullivan 1992). They do so unconsciously, without any apparent training, typically without being able to report on their methods, and often at an age when the normal child is struggling with elementary arithmetic concepts (O'Connor 1989). Examples include multiplying, factoring, dividing and identifying primes of six (and more) digits in a matter of seconds as well as specifying the number of objects (more than one hundred) at a glance. For example, one savant (Hill 1978) could give the cube root of a six figure number in 5 seconds and he could double 8,388,628 twenty four times to obtain 140,737,488,355,328 in several seconds. Joseph (Sullivan 1992), the inspiration for the film "Rain Man" about an autistic savant, could spontaneously answer "what number times what number gives 1234567890" by stating "9 times 137,174,210". Sacks (1985) observed autistic twins who could exchange prime numbers in excess of eight figures, possibly even 20 figures, and who could "see" the number of many objects at a glance. When a box of 111 matches fell to the floor the twins cried out 111 and 37, 37, 37. http://www.centreforthemind.com/publications/integerarithmetic.cfm
As well, "Villagers belonging to an Amazonian group called the Mundurucú intuitively grasp abstract geometric principles despite having no formal math education,"
Geometric Principles Appear Universal in Our Minds - May 2011 Excerpt: Villagers belonging to an Amazonian group called the Mundurucú intuitively grasp abstract geometric principles despite having no formal math education,,, Mundurucú adults and 7- to 13-year-olds demonstrate as firm an understanding of the properties of points, lines and surfaces as adults and school-age children in the United States and France,,, http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/05/universal-geometry/
That humans have a intuitive grasp of mathematics and of geometric principles is proof that we are made in the image of God, as Johannes Kepler stated, “Geometry is unique and eternal, a reflection from the mind of God. That mankind shares in it is because man is an image of God.”
“Geometry is unique and eternal, a reflection from the mind of God. That mankind shares in it is because man is an image of God.” – Johannes Kepler
Indeed, since mathematics itself exists in a transcendent, beyond space and time realm, a realm which is not reducible any possible material explanation,,
Platonic mathematical world - image http://abyss.uoregon.edu/~js/images/platonic_physical.gif Naturalism and Self-Refutation – Michael Egnor – January 31, 2018 Excerpt: Mathematics is certainly something we do. Is mathematics “included in the space-time continuum [with] basic elements … described by physics”?,,, What is the physics behind the Pythagorean theorem? After all, no actual triangle is perfect, and thus no actual triangle in nature has sides such that the Pythagorean theorem holds. There is no real triangle in which the sum of the squares of the sides exactly equals the square of the hypotenuse. That holds true for all of geometry. Geometry is about concepts, not about anything in the natural world or about anything that can be described by physics. What is the “physics” of the fact that the area of a circle is pi multiplied by the square of the radius? And of course what is natural and physical about imaginary numbers, infinite series, irrational numbers, and the mathematics of more than three spatial dimensions? Mathematics is entirely about concepts, which have no precise instantiation in nature,,, Furthermore, the very framework of Clark’s argument — logic — is neither material nor natural. Logic, after all, doesn’t exist “in the space-time continuum” and isn’t described by physics. What is the location of modus ponens? How much does Gödel’s incompleteness theorem weigh? What is the physics of non-contradiction? How many millimeters long is Clark’s argument for naturalism? Ironically the very logic that Clark employs to argue for naturalism is outside of any naturalistic frame. The strength of Clark’s defense of naturalism is that it is an attempt to present naturalism’s tenets clearly and logically. That is its weakness as well, because it exposes naturalism to scrutiny, and naturalism cannot withstand even minimal scrutiny. Even to define naturalism is to refute it. https://evolutionnews.org/2018/01/naturalism-and-self-refutation/
... since mathematics itself exists in a transcendent, beyond space and time realm, a realm which is not reducible any possible material explanation, then it necessarily follows that man must also possess a mind and/or soul that is also irreducible to materialistic explanation. As Alfred Russel Wallace stated, "“Nothing in evolution can account for the soul of man. The difference between man and the other animals is unbridgeable. Mathematics is alone sufficient to prove in man the possession of a faculty unexistent in other creatures. Then you have music and the artistic faculty. No, the soul was a separate creation.,,,"
New thoughts on evolution - A 1910 Interview with Alfred Russel Wallace Excerpt:“Nothing in evolution can account for the soul of man. The difference between man and the other animals is unbridgeable. Mathematics is alone sufficient to prove in man the possession of a faculty unexistent in other creatures. Then you have music and the artistic faculty. No, the soul was a separate creation.,,, ,,, for those who have eyes to see and minds accustomed to reflect, in the minutest cells, in the blood, in the whole earth, and throughout the stellar universe--our own little universe, as one may call it--there is intelligent and conscious direction; in a word, there is Mind." ,,, (Wallace) shook his head and smiled amiably upon the hotheadedness of Darwinians. "The scales on the wings of a moth," he said quietly, "have no explanation in Evolution. They belong to Beauty, and Beauty is a spiritual mystery. Even Huxley was puzzled by the beauty of his environment. What is the origin of Beauty? Evolution cannot explain." — Alfred Russell Wallace, New Thoughts on Evolution, - 1910 http://people.wku.edu/charles.smith/wallace/S746.htm
As to the objective existence of mathematics, perhaps the most direct way to establish the fact that mathematics is objectively real is to point out the fact that, as Werner Heisenberg stated, " the smallest units of matter are not physical objects in the ordinary sense; they are forms, ideas which can be expressed unambiguously only in mathematical language.”
“I think that modern physics has definitely decided in favor of Plato. In fact the smallest units of matter are not physical objects in the ordinary sense; they are forms, ideas which can be expressed unambiguously only in mathematical language.” - Werner Heisenberg
And as Bernardo Kastrup points out, the descriptions we now use to describe atoms themselves, the further down we go, dissolve into “abstract conceptual tools for describing nature, which themselves seem to lack any real, concrete essence.,,,”
Physics Is Pointing Inexorably to Mind So-called “information realism” has some surprising implications By Bernardo Kastrup – March 25, 2019 Excerpt: according to the Greek atomists, if we kept on dividing things into ever-smaller bits, at the end there would remain solid, indivisible particles called atoms, imagined to be so concrete as to have even particular shapes. Yet, as our understanding of physics progressed, we’ve realized that atoms themselves can be further divided into smaller bits, and those into yet smaller ones, and so on, until what is left lacks shape and solidity altogether. At the bottom of the chain of physical reduction there are only elusive, phantasmal entities we label as “energy” and “fields”—abstract conceptual tools for describing nature, which themselves seem to lack any real, concrete essence.,,, https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/physics-is-pointing-inexorably-to-mind/
And as Amir D. Aczel states, "To explain the quantum-mechanical behavior of even one tiny particle requires pages and pages of extremely advanced mathematics. Why are even the tiniest particles of matter so unbelievably complicated? It appears that there is a vast, hidden "wisdom," or structure, or a knotty blueprint for even the most simple-looking element of nature."
Why Science Does Not Disprove God - April 27, 2014 Excerpt: "To explain the quantum-mechanical behavior of even one tiny particle requires pages and pages of extremely advanced mathematics. Why are even the tiniest particles of matter so unbelievably complicated? It appears that there is a vast, hidden "wisdom," or structure, or a knotty blueprint for even the most simple-looking element of nature." Amir D. Aczel - mathematician http://time.com/77676/why-science-does-not-disprove-god/
Thus since atoms themselves 'dissolve' into abstract mathematical descriptions, then that obviously provides the Theist with very strong empirical evidence for the objectively reality of mathematics.bornagain77
November 29, 2019
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At post 5, John_a_designer states,
In Mere Christianity C.S. Lewis argued that the truths of morality, or what he calls the Law of Human Nature (LHN), are very analogous to the truths of mathematics.
Likewise, in a book entitled "What We Can't Not Know", Professor J. Budziszewski also argues that, "Yet our common moral knowledge is as real as arithmetic, and probably just as plain. Paradoxically, maddeningly, we appeal to it even to justify wrongdoing; rationalization is the homage paid by sin to guilty knowledge.”
“Yet our common moral knowledge is as real as arithmetic, and probably just as plain. Paradoxically, maddeningly, we appeal to it even to justify wrongdoing; rationalization is the homage paid by sin to guilty knowledge.” - J. Budziszewski, What We Can't Not Know: A Guide
Of related interest, a few weeks ago on UD Hazel claimed that mathematics was completely amoral, i.e. it just is, nothing particularly good or evil about mathematics. To which I responded that if claiming that 2+2=5 is immoral, then why is the truthfulness inherent in 2+2=4 to be considered amoral? Since truthfulness is obviously a morally good thing, (and falsehoods are obviously an immoral thing), then the unwavering truthfulness inherent in mathematics must also be a VERY morally good thing. Thus, mathematics and morality, via the common bond of the goodness that is obviously inherent in truthfulness, share a intimate and foundational bond that links the two together forever. Now to establish the objective reality of both morality and mathematics. This following study found that, contrary to 100 years of materialistic presuppositions, a sophisticated sense of morality is innate in babies in that "Despite their overall preference for good actors over bad, then, babies are drawn to bad actors when those actors are punishing bad behavior."
The Moral Life of Babies – May 2010 Excerpt: From Sigmund Freud to Jean Piaget to Lawrence Kohlberg, psychologists have long argued that we begin life as amoral animals.,,, A growing body of evidence, though, suggests that humans do have a rudimentary moral sense from the very start of life. With the help of well-designed experiments, you can see glimmers of moral thought, moral judgment and moral feeling even in the first year of life. Some sense of good and evil seems to be bred in the bone.,,, Despite their overall preference for good actors over bad, then, babies are drawn to bad actors when those actors are punishing bad behavior. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/09/magazine/09babies-t.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
Indeed, an innate sense of morality is even detected in twins in a womb:
Twin fetuses learn how to be social in the womb - October 13, 2010 Excerpt: Humans have a deep-seated urge to be social, and new research on the interactions of twins in the womb suggests this begins even before babies are born.,,, The five pairs of twins were found to be reaching for each other even at 14 weeks, and making a range of contacts including head to head, arm to head and head to arm. By the time they were at 18 weeks, they touched each other more often than they touched their own bodies, spending up to 30 percent of their time reaching out and stroking their co-twin.,,, Kinematic analyses of the recordings showed the fetuses made distinct gestures when touching each other, and movements lasted longer — their hands lingered. They also took as much care when touching their twin’s delicate eye region as they did with their own. This type of contact was not the same as the inevitable contact between two bodies sharing a confined space or accidental contacts between the bodies and the walls of the uterus,,, The findings clearly demonstrate it is deep within human nature to reach out to other people. http://phys.org/news/206164323-twin-fetuses-social-womb.html
Moreover, the following study is very interesting in that, (since Darwinian evolution can’t even explain the origin of a single gene/protein by unguided material processes), it shows that objective morality is built/designed, in a very nuanced fashion, into the way our the gene expression of our bodies differentiate between ‘hedonic’ and ‘noble’ moral happiness:
Human Cells Respond in Healthy, Unhealthy Ways to Different Kinds of Happiness - July 29, 2013 Excerpt: Human bodies recognize at the molecular level that not all happiness is created equal, responding in ways that can help or hinder physical health,,, The sense of well-being derived from “a noble purpose” may provide cellular health benefits, whereas “simple self-gratification” may have negative effects, despite an overall perceived sense of happiness, researchers found.,,, But if all happiness is created equal, and equally opposite to ill-being, then patterns of gene expression should be the same regardless of hedonic or eudaimonic well-being. Not so, found the researchers. Eudaimonic well-being was, indeed, associated with a significant decrease in the stress-related CTRA gene expression profile. In contrast, hedonic well-being was associated with a significant increase in the CTRA profile. Their genomics-based analyses, the authors reported, reveal the hidden costs of purely hedonic well-being.,, “We can make ourselves happy through simple pleasures, but those ‘empty calories’ don’t help us broaden our awareness or build our capacity in ways that benefit us physically,” she said. “At the cellular level, our bodies appear to respond better to a different kind of well-being, one based on a sense of connectedness and purpose.” http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/07/130729161952.htm
The following studies go one step further and shows that our moral intuition transcends space and time:
Quantum Consciousness – Time Flies Backwards? – Stuart Hameroff MD Excerpt: Dean Radin and Dick Bierman have performed a number of experiments of emotional response in human subjects. The subjects view a computer screen on which appear (at randomly varying intervals) a series of images, some of which are emotionally neutral, and some of which are highly emotional (violent, sexual….). In Radin and Bierman’s early studies, skin conductance of a finger was used to measure physiological response They found that subjects responded strongly to emotional images compared to neutral images, and that the emotional response occurred between a fraction of a second to several seconds BEFORE the image appeared! Recently Professor Bierman (University of Amsterdam) repeated these experiments with subjects in an fMRI brain imager and found emotional responses in brain activity up to 4 seconds before the stimuli. Moreover he looked at raw data from other laboratories and found similar emotional responses before stimuli appeared. http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/views/TimeFlies.html Can Your Body Sense Future Events Without Any External Clue? (meta-analysis of 26 reports published between 1978 and 2010) - (Oct. 22, 2012) Excerpt: "But our analysis suggests that if you were tuned into your body, you might be able to detect these anticipatory changes between two and 10 seconds beforehand,,, This phenomenon is sometimes called "presentiment," as in "sensing the future," but Mossbridge said she and other researchers are not sure whether people are really sensing the future. "I like to call the phenomenon 'anomalous anticipatory activity,'" she said. "The phenomenon is anomalous, some scientists argue, because we can't explain it using present-day understanding about how biology works; though explanations related to recent quantum biological findings could potentially make sense. It's anticipatory because it seems to predict future physiological changes in response to an important event without any known clues, and it's an activity because it consists of changes in the cardiopulmonary, skin and nervous systems." http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/10/121022145342.htm
In the preceding paper one of the researchers remarked that 'we can't explain (the anticipatory activity of the body) using present-day understanding about how biology works; though explanations related to recent quantum biological findings could potentially make sense.'… And, exactly as she thought, quantum biological findings do indeed shed light how it might be possible for the body to anticipate morally troubling situations before they happen. In fact, as this following video shows,,
Darwinian Materialism vs. Quantum Biology – Part II - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSig2CsjKbg
,,,findings in quantum biology go much further and gives us strong physical evidence that humans possess a transcendent component to their being on the molecular level that is not reducible to materialistic explanations.
Looking beyond space and time to cope with quantum theory – 29 October 2012 Excerpt: “Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them,” http://www.quantumlah.org/highlight/121029_hidden_influences.php
That is to say, findings from quantum biology now give us experimental evidence strongly suggesting that we do indeed have a transcendent 'soul' that is capable of living beyond the death of our material bodies just as Christians have held all along. Thus we do indeed have strong empirical evidence for the objective reality of morality. And since the existence of objective morality is predicated on the objective existence of God, then it necessary follows that this is also strong evidence for the existence of God. The moral argument for the existence of God can be stated succinctly as such:
Premise 1: If God does not exist, then objective moral values and duties do not exist. Premise 2: Objective moral values and duties do exist. Conclusion: Therefore, God exists. - The Moral Argument (for God) - Dr. Craig - animated video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxiAikEk2vU
bornagain77
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Sev, that truth accurately describes reality is not confined to the empirical world; abstract entities and relationships can be realities and can be accurately described -- start with core Mathematics. As, has been repeatedly pointed out to you. KFkairosfocus
November 29, 2019
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Should read “thus it cannot be observed” Vividvividbleau
November 29, 2019
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“Objective truth is that which we can say about the nature of the reality which is presumed to exist regardless of whether it is being observed by conscious intelligence or even can be so observed.” If so how can we say anything about the nature of reality if it is not observed by a conscience intelligence or if it cannot be observed? Vividvividbleau
November 29, 2019
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It appears to me that there are different usages of the word "truth" in play here and that equivocation between them is causing some confusion. For example, I follow the correspondence theory in which truth is a property of claims we make about the nature of observable reality. On this understanding, truth can be regarded as a variable which can hold a number of values. Because our knowledge of the world is incomplete any claims about the nature of that reality are necessarily imperfect. The degree of truth in a claim is determined by the extent to which we can map it to what we are trying to describe or explain in observable reality.
[i] subjective truth as perceived to be so by some individual or group (which is not at all to be dismissively equated with delusion or imagination or whim), with
I would agree that subjective truth is that which subsists only in the mind of the individual. It should not be dismissed as delusion - although it could be that - but, short of linking two consciousnesses through something like the "Vulcan mind-meld", there is no way for someone to observe or share the first-person experiences of another. For example, I know that it is true that I enjoyed the taste of toast and marmalade I ate for breakfast but there is no way for anyone else to verify that experience. Moreover, when I die, that truth will disappear from this universe along with the rest of my consciousness, as far as I know.
[ii] absolute truth which is true, the whole material truth and nothing but that truth (say, as known to God [who knows perfectly and completely]), and again with
To me, this is where the possibility of equivocation exists. Does "truth" refer to a conscious observer's knowledge of observable reality, whether understood as claims or descriptions or mental models, or does it refer to the nature of that reality itself whether or not it is being observed? Does truth reside in the model or that which is being modeled?
[iii] objective truth, i.e. what we [who are finite and fallible but rational . . . ] may have good warrant and even a duty to hold as credibly and reliably true independent of our particular subjectivity (given the adequacy of the warrants) but which is open in principle to sound correction.
Objective truth is that which we can say about the nature of the reality which is presumed to exist regardless of whether it is being observed by conscious intelligence or even can be so observed.Seversky
November 29, 2019
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In Mere Christianity C.S. Lewis argued that the truths of morality, or what he calls the Law of Human Nature (LHN), are very analogous to the truths of mathematics.
[P]eople wrote to me saying 'Isn't what you call the Moral Law just a social convention, something that is put into us by education?' I think there is a misunderstanding here. The people who ask that question are usually taking it for granted that if we have learned a thing from parents and teachers, then that thing must be merely a human invention. But, of course, that is not so. We all learned the multiplication table at school. A child who grew up alone on a desert island would not know it. But surely it does not follow that the multiplication table is simply a human convention, something human beings made up for themselves and might have made different if they had liked? I fully agree that we learn the Rule of Decent Behaviour from parents and teachers, and friends and books, as we learn everything else. But some of the things we learn are mere conventions which might have been different — we learn to keep to the left of the road, but it might just as well have been the rule to keep to the right — and others of them, like mathematics, are real truths. The questions is to which class the Law of Human Nature[morality] belongs.
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/questionofgod/ownwords/mere1.html Indeed, unlike the people living in the U.S. the Brit’s believe that “left is right and right is wrong.” Of course, we are talking about which side of the road you are supposed to drive on. However, I find it ironic that the very nation where the English language originated created laws that use their language in a paradoxical if not contradictory sort of way. Of course, the paradox is a result of the equivocal way we are using right and left here. Maybe they were just having a little fun-- as in fun with a pun. (On second thought, other than Monty Python do the Brits know how to have fun?) The point, of course, is that morality (HLN) in Lewis view is not simply an arbitrary or conventional set of rules, like which side of the road you are permitted to drive on. It’s worth considering the other points Lewis makes.
There are two reasons for saying [morality] belongs to the same class as mathematics. The first is, as I said in the first chapter, that though there are differences between the moral ideas of one time or country and those of another, the differences are not really very great — not nearly so great as most people imagine — and you can recognize the same lay running through them all: whereas mere conventions, like the rule of the road of the kinds or clothes people wear, may differ to any extent. The other reason is this. When you think about these differences between the morality of one people and another, do you think that the morality of one people is ever better or worse than that of another? Have any of the changes been improvements? If not, then of course there could never be any moral progress. Progress means not just changing, but changing for the better. If no set of moral ideas were truer or better than any other, there would be no sense in preferring civilized morality to savage morality, or Christian morality to Nazi morality. In fact, of course, we all do believe that some moralities are better than others. We do believe that some of the people who tried to change the moral ideas of their own age were what we would call Reformers of Pioneers — people who understood morality better than their neighbors did. Very well then. The moment you say that one set of moral ideas can be better than another, you are, in fact, measuring them both by a standard, saying that one of them conforms to that standard more nearly than the other. But the standard that measures two things is something different from either. You are, in fact, comparing them both with some Real Morality, admitting that there is such a thing as a real Right, independent of what people think, and that some people's ideas get nearer to that real Right than others. Or put it this way. If your moral ideas can be truer, and those of the Nazis less true, there must be something — some Real Morality — for them to be true about. The reason why your idea of New York can be truer of less true than mine is that New York is a real place, existing quite apart from what either of us thinks. If when each of us said 'New York' each means merely 'The town I am imagining in my own head', how could one of us have truer ideas than the other? There would be no question of truth or falsehood at all. In the same way, if the Rule of Decent Behaviour meant simply 'whatever each nation happens to approve', there would be no sense in saying that any one nation had even been more correct in its approval than any other; no sense in saying that the world would ever grow morally better or morally worse. (emphasis added)
john_a_designer
November 29, 2019
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KF “KF and others talk about “objective” as being something that is unchangeable. For example, homosexuality is objectively wrong. Always was, always will be. This doesn’t change with the times. But you argue that my preference of ice cream flavor is also objectively true. If my preference for ice cream is objective, and changeable, then other objective things, like moral values, are also changeable.” Just to be clear EG wrote that in response to a discussion we were having. He claims that he accepts that morality is objective but when you parse his answer that is far from clear. When given the definition of objective and asked if he agreed there has been nothing but crickets which is SOP it seems for EG. Read posts 41 through 51 in the objectors thread and you will see what I mean. Vividvividbleau
November 29, 2019
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Recently, I asked on another thread:
Why are we wasting time on people who are epistemological subjectivists like Ed George? His belief is that all he or anyone else has are opinions. You want proof? Here’s a debate we had with Mr. George about a year ago (12/18) when we were debating whether math was something that had been discovered or had been invented with him and others.
https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/why-is-seeing-the-glaringly-obvious-so-hard/#comment-688256 I pointed out there that on the earlier thread (12/11/18) that Ed agreed that his reasoning goes like this:
Either X or Y could be true EG believes Y Therefore, Y is true. In other words, Ed George believes it. That settles it.
To which Ed, apparently without embarrassment responded:
That is all any of us can do. Mathematics either exists independent of humans or it is something invented by humans to model our observations. My opinion is that it is the latter. ET and KF believe it is the former. But, unfortunately, there is no way of determining which is true. And, frankly, does it matter?
https://uncommondescent.com/mathematics/logic-first-principles-4-the-logic-of-being-causality-and-science/#comment-669576 In other words, Ed is ‘arguing,’ “I don’t know, therefore, nobody knows.” But the question then is how does he know nobody else knows? I would argue his position is self-refuting, therefore, it’s a non-starter. An argument which is only an argument about a personal opinion is not really an argument, it’s only being pointlessly argumentative. The objective of any logical argument is to establish the truth. Doubling down on one’s personal beliefs doesn’t move the ball in either direction. It is nothing more than a self-serving combination of hubris and dogmatism. So far Ed has not responded. Should we, therefore, assume that that is still his position? Perhaps he is beginning to see that his positon is not only indefensible but irrational… Possible, but I doubt it.john_a_designer
November 29, 2019
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Is there a greater reason to consider "intersubjective experience" than either subjective or objective or even absolute truth? If not a greater reason then can intersubjective experience be a necessary degree of truth for the present discussion? The intersubjective experience is in where anyone can " live through" the experience given suitable conditions. (Stephan Körner, 1960) [1] In his words, "If a self-evident experience (or type of experience) is to validate any statement belonging to a public science, it must be intersubjective. It must be capable of being lived through by everybody -- at least under suitable conditions. Private experiences, such as are reported by mystics, cannot validate a scientific theory -- not even if they are self-evident. Further, the self-evidence of an experience must be intrinsic to the experience or inseparable from it. The person living through the experience must eo ipso, without employing criteria, recognize its self-evidence. ... " Background information: On Scientific Information, Explanation and Progress, Stephan Körner, Publisher Summary "The chapter discusses some aspects of the informative and explanatory function of science and their relevance to the understanding of scientific change and progress. The notion of any progressive process presupposes its division into phases and the respect in which of any two phases one surpasses the other, is surpassed by it or does not differ from it. To believe that a process is progressive in any of the mentioned senses of the term, it is not necessary to have a clear knowledge of its division into phases, the respect in which the phases are compared with each other or the relation by means of which the comparison is made. Even a highly technical and specialized theory may give new information not only to the experts who have grasped the theory's logico-mathematical structure and conceptual net, but also to others who have little or no understanding of these features of the theory." [2] Philosophical Analysis and Reconstruction, Abstract "Professor Marciszewski’s discussion of my conception of the structure and function of categorial frameworks, as propounded in my 1970 monograph, shows a full and, I am pleased to note, sympathetic understanding of the task which I set myself. It also contains some constructive and justified criticisms. Indeed some of the modifications proposed by him will be found in a book of mine which I submitted to the Cambridge University Press, before I had the benefit of studying his comments. My aim in both these books, as Marciszewski clearly sees, is not to develop and to defend my own metaphysics or, more particularly, my own categorial framework i.e. the supreme principles governing my thinking about what I take to be the world of intersubjective experience. It is to develop the general notion of categorial frameworks, of which my own is one example among many. Any attempt at fulfilling this task is exposed to the everpresent danger of confusing features peculiar to one’s own categorial framework with features characteristic of any such structure. While I do not claim to have been successful in avoiding this danger, I do claim that I have been fully aware of it. This awareness finds its probably clearest expression in the last chapter of my later book, which contains a brief synopsis of the convictions which constitute my immanent and my transcendent metaphysics as well as my morality." [3] ---------------------- References: 1. Stephan Körner, The Philosophy of Mathematics: An Introductory Essay, Dover Publications, 1960, pg 136. (https://philpapers.org/rec/KRNTPO) 2. Körner, Stephan, On Scientific Information, Explanation and Progress, Studies in Logic and the Foundations of Mathematics, Volume 114, 1986, Pages 1-15. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0049237X09706822 3. In: Srzednicki J.T.J. (eds) Stephan Körner — Philosophical Analysis and Reconstruction. Nijhoff International Philosophy Series, vol 28. Springer, Dordrecht, Metaphysics: Its Structure and Function, (Cambridge, 1984). https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-94-009-3639-3_8redwave
November 29, 2019
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F/N: Let me note, Prof. William Provine of Cornell University, in his well-known 1998 Darwin Day keynote address at the University of Tennessee, as he then went on to try to make the best case he could for an ethics of naturalism:
Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent . . . . The first 4 implications are so obvious to modern naturalistic evolutionists that I will spend little time defending them. Human free will, however, is another matter. Even evolutionists have trouble swallowing that implication. I will argue that humans are locally determined systems that make choices. They have, however, no free will . . . . Without free will, justification for revenge disappears and rehabilitation is the main job of judicial systems and prisons. [NB: As C. S Lewis warned, in the end, this means: reprogramming through new conditioning determined by the power groups controlling the society and its prisons.] We will all live in a better society when the myth of free will is dispelled . . . . How can we have meaning in life? When we die we are really dead; nothing of us survives. Natural selection is a process leading every species almost certainly to extinction . . . Nothing could be more uncaring than the entire process of organic evolution. Life has been on earth for about 3.6 billion years. In less that one billion more years our sun will turn into a red giant. All life on earth will be burnt to a crisp. Other cosmic processes absolutely guarantee the extinction of all life anywhere in the universe. When all life is extinguished, no memory whatsoever will be left that life ever existed. Yet our lives are filled with meaning. Proximate meaning is more important than ultimate. Even if we die, we can have deeply [subjectively and culturally] meaningful lives . . . . [Evolution: Free Will and Punishment and Meaning in Life, Second Annual Darwin Day Celebration Keynote Address, University of Tennessee, Knoxville, February 12, 1998 (abstract).]
In short Provine confirms the issue. KFkairosfocus
November 29, 2019
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EG vs objective reality (pivoting on distinct identity)kairosfocus
November 29, 2019
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