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Logic & First Principles, 14: Are beauty, truth, knowledge, goodness and justice merely matters of subjective opinions? (Preliminary thoughts.)

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We live in a Kant-haunted age, where the “ugly gulch” between our inner world of appearances and judgements and the world of things in themselves is often seen as unbridgeable. Of course, there are many other streams of thought that lead to widespread relativism and subjectivism, but the ugly gulch concept is in some ways emblematic. Such trends influence many commonly encountered views, most notably our tendency to hold that being a matter of taste, beauty lies solely in the eye of the beholder.

And yet, we find the world-famous bust of Nefertiti:

The famous bust of Nefertiti, found in Thutmose’s workshop (notice, how subtle smiles will play a role in portraits of beautiful women)

Compare, 3400 years later; notice the symmetry and focal power of key features for Guinean model, Sira Kante :


Sira Kante

And then, ponder the highly formal architecture of the Taj Mahal:

The Taj Mahal

ADDED: To help drive home the point, here is a collage of current architectural eyesores:

Current Eyesores

Added, Mar 23 — Vernal Equinox: The oddly shaped building on London’s skyline is called “Walkie-Talkie” and due to its curved surface creates a heating hazard at the height of summer on a nearby street — yet another aspect of sound design that was overlooked (this one, ethical):

Louvre as seen from inside the Pei pyramid

Since it has come up I add the Louvre’s recent addition of a Pyramid (which apparently echoes a similar temporary monument placed there c. 1839 to honour the dead in an 1830 uprising). Notice, below, how symmetric it is in the context of the museum; where triangular elements are a longstanding part of the design as may be seen from the structure below the central dome and above many windows. Observe the balance between overall framework and detailed elements that relieve the boredom of large, flat blank walls. Historically, also, as Notre Dame’s South Rose Window so aptly illustrates, windows and light have been part of the design and function of French architecture. Notice, how it fits the symmetry and is not overwhelmingly large, though of course those who objected that it is not simply aligned with the classical design of the building have a point:

Yet again, the similarly strongly patterned South Rose Window at Notre Dame (with its obvious focal point, as well as how the many portraits give delightful detail and variety amidst the symmetry) :

Notre Dame, South Rose Window

Compare, patterning, variety and focus with subtle asymmetry in part of “Seahorse Valley” for the Mandelbrot set:

Seahorse Valley zoom, Mandelbrot set

I add, let us pause to see the power of spirals as a pattern, tying in the Fibonacci sequence and thus also the Golden Ratio, Phi, 1.618 . . . (where concentric circles as in the Rose Window, have much of the same almost hypnotic effect and where we see spirals in the seahorse valley also):

Here, let us observe a least squares fit logarithmic spiral superposed on a cut Nautilus shell:

Let us also note, Da Vinci’s Vitruvian Man, as an illustration of patterns and proportions, noting the impact of the dynamic effect of the many S- and J-curve sculptural forms of the curved shapes in the human figure:

Note, a collage of “typical” human figure proportions:

Contrast the striking abstract forms (echoing and evoking human or animal figures), asymmetric patterning, colour balances, contrasts and fractal-rich cloudy details in the Eagle Nebula:

The Eagle Nebula

Also, the fractal patterning and highlighted focus shown by a partially sunlit Grand Canyon:

Grand Canyon

And then, with refreshed eyes, ponder Mona Lisa, noticing how da Vinci’s composition draws together all the above elements:

Mona Lisa — the most famous portrait
A modern reconstruction of what Mona Lisa may have looked like on completion

Let me also add, in a deliberately reduced scale, a reconstruction of what the portrait may have originally looked like. Over 400 years have passed, varnish has aged and yellowed, poplar wood has responded to its environment, some pigments have lost their colour, there have apparently been over-zealous reconstructions. Of course, the modern painter is not in Da Vinci’s class.

However, such a reconstruction helps us see the story the painting subtly weaves.

A wealthy young lady sits in a three-quarters pose . . . already a subtle asymmetry, in an ornate armchair, on an elevated balcony overlooking a civilisation-tamed landscape; she represents the upper class of the community that has tamed the land. Notice, how a serpentine, S-curved road just below her right shoulder ties her to the landscape and how a ridge line at the base of her neck acts as a secondary horizon and lead in. Also, the main horizon line (at viewer’s eye-level) is a little below her eyes; it is relieved by more ridges. She wears bright red, softened with dark green and translucent layers. Her reddish brown hair is similarly veiled. As a slight double-chin and well-fed hands show, she is not an exemplar of the extreme thinness equals beauty school of thought. The right hand is brought over to the left and superposed, covering her midriff — one almost suspects, she may be an expectant mother. Her eyes (note the restored highlights) look to her left . . . a subtle asymmetry that communicates lifelike movement so verisimilitude, as if she is smiling subtly with the painter or the viewer — this is not a smirk or sneer. And of course the presence of an invited narrative adds to the aesthetic power of the composition.

These classics (old and new alike) serve to show how stable a settled judgement of beauty can be. Which raises a question: what is beauty? Like unto that: are there principles of aesthetic judgement that give a rational framework, setting up objective knowledge of beauty? And, how do beauty, goodness, justice and truth align?

These are notoriously hard questions, probing aesthetics and ethics, the two main branches of axiology, the philosophical study of the valuable.

Where, yes, beauty is recognised to be valuable, even as ethics is clearly tied to moral value and goodness and truth are also valuable, worthy to be prized. It is unsurprising that the Taj Mahal was built as a mausoleum by a King to honour his beautiful, deeply loved wife (who had died in childbirth).

AmHD is a good place to start: beauty is “[a] quality or combination of qualities that gives pleasure to the mind or senses and is often associated with properties such as harmony of form or color, proportion, authenticity, and originality. “

Wikipedia first suggests that beauty is:

a property or characteristic of an animal, idea, object, person or place that provides a perceptual experience of pleasure or satisfaction. Beauty is studied as part of aesthetics, culture, social psychology, philosophy and sociology. An “ideal beauty” is an entity which is admired, or possesses features widely attributed to beauty in a particular culture, for perfection. Ugliness is the opposite of beauty.

The experience of “beauty” often involves an interpretation of some entity as being in balance and harmony with nature, which may lead to feelings of attraction and emotional well-being. Because this can be a subjective experience, it is often said that “beauty is in the eye of the beholder.” However, given the empirical observations of things that are considered beautiful often aligning with the aforementioned nature and health thereof, beauty has been stated to have levels of objectivity as well

It then continues (unsurprisingly) that ” [t]here is also evidence that perceptions of beauty are determined by natural selection; that things, aspects of people and landscapes considered beautiful are typically found in situations likely to give enhanced survival of the perceiving human’s genes.” Thus we find the concepts of unconscious programming and perception driven by blind evolutionary forces. The shadow of the ugly gulch lurks just beneath the surface.

Can these differences be resolved?

At one level, at least since Plato’s dialogue Hippias Major, it has been well known that beauty is notoriously hard to define or specify in terms of readily agreed principles. There definitely is subjectivity, but is there also objectivity? If one says no, why then are there classics?

Further, if no, then why could we lay out a cumulative pattern across time, art-form, nature and theme above that then appears exquisitely fused together in a portrait that just happens to be the most famous, classic portrait in the world?

If so, what are such and can they constitute a coherent framework that could justify the claim to objective knowledge of aesthetic value?

Hard questions, hard as there are no easy, simple readily agreed answers. And yet, the process of addressing a hard puzzle where our intuitions tell us something but it seems to be forever just beyond our grasp, is itself highly instructive. For, we know in part.

Dewitt H. Parker, in opening his 1920 textbook, Principles of Aesthetics, aptly captures the paradox:

Although some feeling for beauty is perhaps universal among men, the
same cannot be said of the understanding of beauty. The average man,
who may exercise considerable taste in personal adornment, in the
decoration of the home, or in the choice of poetry and painting, is
at a loss when called upon to tell what art is or to explain why he
calls one thing “beautiful” and another “ugly.” Even the artist and
the connoisseur, skilled to produce or accurate in judgment, are often
wanting in clear and consistent ideas about their own works or
appreciations. Here, as elsewhere, we meet the contrast between feeling
and doing, on the one hand, and knowing, on the other.

Of course, as we saw above, reflective (and perhaps, aided) observation of case studies can support an inductive process that tries to identify principles and design patterns of effective artistic or natural composition that reliably excite the beauty response. That can be quite suggestive, as we already saw:

  • symmetry,
  • balance,
  • pattern (including rhythms in space and/or time [e.g. percussion, dance]),
  • proportion (including the golden ratio phi, 1.618 etc)
  • unity or harmony (with tension and resolution), highlighting contrast,
    variety and detail,
  • subtle asymmetry,
  • focus or vision or theme,
  • verisimilitude (insight that shows/focusses a credible truth/reality)
  • echoing of familiar forms (including scaled, fractal self-symmetry),
  • skilled combination or composition
  • and more.

We may see this with greater richness by taking a side-light from literature, drama and cinema, by using the premise that art tells a story, drawing us into a fresh vision of the world, ourselves, possibilities:

Already, it is clear that beauty has in it organising principles and that coherence with variety in composition indicates that there is indeed organisation, which brings to bear purpose and thus a way in for reflective, critical discussion. From this, we reach to development of higher quality of works and growing knowledge that guides skill and intuition without stifling creativity or originality. So, credibly, there is artistic — or even, aesthetic — knowledge that turns on rational principles, which may rightly be deemed truths.

Where, as we are rational, responsible, significantly free , morally governed creatures, the ethical must also intersect.

Where also, art has a visionary, instructive function that can strongly shape a culture. So, nobility, purity and virtue are inextricably entangled with the artistic: the perverse, ill-advised, unjust or corrupting (consider here, pornography or the like, or literature, drama and cinema that teach propaganda or the techniques of vice) are issues to be faced.

And, after our initial journey, we are back home, but in a different way. We may — if we choose — begin to see how beauty, truth, knowledge, goodness and justice may all come together, and how beauty in particular is more than merely subjective taste or culturally induced preference or disguised population survival. Where also, art reflecting rational principles, purposes and value points to artist. END

PS: To document the impact of the beauty of ordinary things (we have got de-sensitised) here are people who thanks to filtering glasses are seeing (enough of) colour for the first time:

Similarly, here are people hearing for the first time:

This will be a bit more controversial, but observe these Korean plastic surgery outcomes:

Comments
H, did you notice that I deliberately chose cross-cultural cases, natural and mathematical cases? The old subjectivism and cultural relativism/ Western cultural imperialism dismissive talking points fail -- but are tells on how we have been led away from aesthetics. FYI, a civilisation will either prize the aesthetic or it will falter and fail through the addictive cycle of sensualism, benumbing and ever more intense or outright bizarre thrill seeking to compensate leading to ruin . . . so, yes, aesthetics cannot be isolated from ethics and truth. As for the insinuation of a hidden theistic agenda, did you notice that I am speaking to objective patterns and am seeking intelligible principles? Where, in using faces, I have pointed to concrete cases of spoiled and repaired beauty? Cleft palate repair, for example, has dramatic impact. KF PPS: I pondered the rather severe beauty of the classic katana, but felt no that would be distractive -- I just say, when MacArthur pondered destroying all swords he was presented with the contrast of the merely utilitarian and the works of high art; the point was made. I need not point to oriental paintings, pagodas and palaces, they will show similar aesthetic patterns amidst their own distinctive styles.kairosfocus
March 11, 2019
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KF,
Human\s find them beautiful, and — repeat, AND — that they exhibit long known aesthetic patterns and principles, where also, those patterns contribute to the impact . . . as my two comparatives also support. That points to intelligibility, rationality and objectivity.
In other words, given a collection of pieces of art, it is possible (to an extent) to objectively determine which pieces humans will find beautiful---using elements of your list of patterns and principles.daveS
March 11, 2019
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PK, descent into sneering, kindly desist. There is a substantial issue on the table in its own right, aesthetics, with a framework of cases in point that are widely acknowledged. One of them is the number one portrait painting in the world, which so happens to also pull together the panoply of patterns identified. And BTW, note the difference between subtle asymmetry that promotes focus or variety and harmony and that which is chaotic or distractive, leading to spoiled beauty. There is a line between a "character" feature and spoiling what would have been beautiful. The cases manifestly exhibit patterns that are often identified as contributing to aesthetic effects, and we can identify cases of spoiled or repaired beauty which align with said principles. That is, on fair comment, demonstrative of being a causal factor. If you consider them irrelevant, kindly give us cases of widely acknowledged beauty that do not exhibit such patterns. KF PS: For Symmetry, try, lines of reflection. Subtle asymmetries in some cases show near mirror image patterns (e.g. real faces are generally not perfectly symmetrical, part of the secret of naturalness). The Rose Window is nearly radially symmetrical, with scale contributing to the framing -- about 40 ft across. The stained glass panels then give detail, variety and subtle asymmetry. The window, which is on a sun-facing transept, then contributes to the way the church is lighted, augmenting its other-worldly atmosphere. This then blends with the aesthetics of worship services within.kairosfocus
March 11, 2019
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re 34, to Pater: Yes, a good and essential point. Also, considering one's own cultural norms as somehow representative of universal norms.hazel
March 11, 2019
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EG, Let's roll the tape, with a little added context:
23 Ed George March 11, 2019 at 1:47 pm (Edit) KF [KF --> DS] DS, such animals [= Proboscis Monkeys etc, per a linked picture] are driven by instinct, stimuli and hormones not an aesthetic sense. It is quite possible that you are correct, but is this not a conclusion based more on our sense of exceptionalism than on any true knowledge of whether animals (at least high animals) have any sense of aesthetics?
The context was immediately a particular type of monkey and by extension others of like level. Perhaps you did not follow out the full chain of discussion. My general response remains:
[KF, 28:] EG, kindly, take time to ponder what AmHD and Wikipedia (quite diverse sources!) have summarised. Observe, the cluster of cases above. Tell us whether or no they are generally acknowledged as cases of beauty. Tell us whether there are indeed the sorts of patterns and themes or foci, fractals etc identified, and what in your opinion would happen were those patterns absent. Now, identify cases of generally acknowledged beauty where none of those patterns, themes etc are present. (We can readily identify cases of ugliness and chaos that follow little or no pattern etc.) Then, explain to us how, say bilateral symmetry, focal highlights, variety within a pattern, etc are not intelligible and objective (ponder especially seahorse valley) BECAUSE we, self-aware highly cognitively proficient subjects are just that, aware and minded. As for the monkeys, kindly provide a case where they exhibit higher cognitive behaviours starting with abstract language, reflective observation and concepts required for aesthetics. It is fair comment that you have no evidence but simply posed an empty what if to try to shift the burden of argument.
KFkairosfocus
March 11, 2019
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@Ed George #33 KF demonstrates the time-honored tradition of equivocating and muddling concepts so as to justify "seeing God" in the universe. This mindset appears to require ignoring the boundary of where one's mind ends and the rest of the universe begins.Pater Kimbridge
March 11, 2019
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KF
These are known, world class exemplars of beauty.
According to who? I’m sorry, but I decide what I perceive as beautiful, I don’t consult a public opinion poll.
The what-if stands as unsubstantiated and rhetorically serves as a distractor. Proboscis monkeys have very useful noses (which function as a signalling organ), but they do not show significant signs of higher order, abstract cognition sufficient to address aesthetics.
First, I never said anything about monkeys, secondly, you still have not asked why I posed my “what if”. I really have no idea what you are going on about.Ed George
March 11, 2019
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EG, These are known, world class exemplars of beauty. The what-if stands as unsubstantiated and rhetorically serves as a distractor. Proboscis monkeys have very useful noses (which function as a signalling organ), but they do not show significant signs of higher order, abstract cognition sufficient to address aesthetics. DS, Human\s find them beautiful, and -- repeat, AND -- that they exhibit long known aesthetic patterns and principles, where also, those patterns contribute to the impact . . . as my two comparatives also support. That points to intelligibility, rationality and objectivity. KFkairosfocus
March 11, 2019
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KF,
DS, symmetry, harmony, fractal patterns, focal features, pattern, diversity amidst pattern, etc etc are all readily observable and even measurable.
And we agree that humans find those things beautiful.daveS
March 11, 2019
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KF, I don’t find the Taj Mahal, the Rose Window or the Nefertiti bust particualarly beatiful. The former two I find to be impressive pieces of engineering but I find them gaudi and austentatious. But that is just me. I also understand that others find them beautiful. I have seen both in person and, meh.
It is fair comment that you have no evidence but simply posed an empty what if to try to shift the burden of argument.
This comment just proves that you have no idea why I posed this “what if”. If you want to know, just ask. Please don’t ascribe other motives when you don’t know what they are.Ed George
March 11, 2019
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DS, symmetry, harmony, fractal patterns, focal features, pattern, diversity amidst pattern, etc etc are all readily observable and even measurable. There is a cluster of cases on the table. To in effect sidestep that and suggest that agreement is not enough to establish the fact, is a strawman argument. There is a concrete, readily observable cluster on the table, including major wonders, which clearly demonstrate the listed patterns. Kindly, address them. Tell me, on what grounds, these patterns are not observably present in Mona Lisa, or if they are, how they do not contribute to the aesthetic impact. KFkairosfocus
March 11, 2019
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EG, kindly, take time to ponder what AmHD and Wikipedia (quite diverse sources!) have summarised. Observe, the cluster of cases above. Tell us whether or no they are generally acknowledged as cases of beauty. Tell us whether there are indeed the sorts of patterns and themes or foci, fractals etc identified, and what in your opinion would happen were those patterns absent. Now, identify cases of generally acknowledged beauty where none of those patterns, themes etc are present. (We can readily identify cases of ugliness and chaos that follow little or no pattern etc.) Then, explain to us how, say bilateral symmetry, focal highlights, variety within a pattern, etc are not intelligible and objective (ponder especially seahorse valley) BECAUSE we, self-aware highly cognitively proficient subjects are just that, aware and minded. As for the monkeys, kindly provide a case where they exhibit higher cognitive behaviours starting with abstract language, reflective observation and concepts required for aesthetics. It is fair comment that you have no evidence but simply posed an empty what if to try to shift the burden of argument. KF PS: Right now, I know a fine young lady who would be astonishingly physically beautiful, but for one unfortunately ill formed feature. She more than makes up for it with a gracious warmth. Another has a very pretty face, and the scar from surgery to correct a cleft palate does not materially detract from it.kairosfocus
March 11, 2019
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KF,
As to whether such a creature would perceive itself as beautiful, were it able to form the concept and respond aesthetically, that is a hypothetical.
Yes, it is hypothetical. This question is supposed to get at whether some people (for example, Sira Kante) have beauty which objectively exists or not. BTW, I think the definition(s) you have posted of beauty are reasonable, but I agree with hazel in #21.daveS
March 11, 2019
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Pater K:
If beauty is an objective property, then build me a device to measure it.
It's you, Pater.ET
March 11, 2019
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@Ed George #24 Indeed. It is the flaws that tell you a gemstone is genuine and natural. Those asymmetries in people's faces can be interpreted as beauty to some, ugliness to others.Pater Kimbridge
March 11, 2019
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PK
The math gives us scalar self-symmetry. Only your mind can interpret it as beauty, hence beauty is purely subjective.
I think you have hit the nail on the head here. I can only use myself as an example, but the women that I find attractive all have some asymmetry in their faces. A crooked smile, teeth that are not perfectly aligned, etc.Ed George
March 11, 2019
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KF
DS, such animals are driven by instinct, stimuli and hormones not an aesthetic sense.
It is quite possible that you are correct, but is this not a conclusion based more on our sense of exceptionalism than on any true knowledge of whether animals (at least high animals) have any sense of aesthetics?Ed George
March 11, 2019
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H, these are commonalities that we can and do observe, symmetry, proportion, harmony [tied to ratios of frequencies], variety, fractal patterns, subtle asymmetries often tied to focal points, patterns (I here think of the slight sigmoid and entasis, e.g. the Parthenon is deliberately subtly curved in order to look better than what straight lines would) etc. Where, the fact that a wide diversity of humanity observes in common is itself evidence that it is credible that there is an object or entity that they are responding to. Kindly, look at the cluster of examples above, noting the significance of especially the last i/l/o the others. KFkairosfocus
March 11, 2019
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Once again, commonalities that are shared by all humans does not mean that those commonalities have some transcendental existence apart from their widespread and subjective manifestation in the minds of individual human beings.hazel
March 11, 2019
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DS, the creatures which are as you show, alas, are not cognitively sophisticated. What we can see is that even the horribly disfigured do have a sense of beauty, are capable of grasping the transcendent. That includes also goodness, harmony, truth, justice, etc. As we reflect together on what attracts and gives us wonder aesthetically, we find that there are patterns, patterns of composition on the part of artists, or in patterns of natural entities, e.g. there are astronomical phenomena that would be high priced works of art were they in museums etc. Thus, we find reason to believe that a rational creature would be able to understand the principles involved, and perhaps would be able to respond with appreciation. Even if not, the cognitive component would credibly be in the reach of such a creature. As to whether such a creature would perceive itself as beautiful, were it able to form the concept and respond aesthetically, that is a hypothetical. Now, too, I find it interesting that you are not disputing that the patterns I showed and pointed out are not there, or that they are connected to the aesthetic response, but are on what is a tangential point. Perhaps then, I should ask you, what is beautiful, why. KF PS: Let us note from the OP, AmHD:
AmHD is a good place to start: beauty is “[a] quality or combination of qualities that gives pleasure to the mind or senses and is often associated with properties such as harmony of form or color, proportion, authenticity, and originality. “
Do you agree or disagree, why? is it or is it not the case that the patterns are there in the Mona Lisa and other cases? Is anyone willing to argue that the Mona Lisa or the Taj Mahal or the portraits of two African women about 4,000 years apart are examples of ugliness or of beauty without the sort of characteristics identified, on what grounds?kairosfocus
March 11, 2019
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PK, it is precisely minds which can grasp objective truth or reasoning or mathematics. Subjectivity is thus not the logical complement of objectivity, they overlap considerably as we are subjects, responsibly and rationally free. If we were not, we could not reason, warrant or know. Objectivity has to do with explicit or implicit warrant that grants credibility and reliability to truth claims. KFkairosfocus
March 11, 2019
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KF,
A pointless hypothetical, pardon. The relevant monkeys are not rational, cognitively advanced creatures. That is why I pointed to the difference above. I doubt they have a concept of beauty, which as was noted above, is quite subtle.
The question is whether humans would find each other beautiful if they looked like those ugly-ass, *erm*, sorry, monkeys (but otherwise had the same cognitive abilities etc). This question has nothing to do with the monkeys' cognitive abilities. Edit: In any case, take this as a rhetorical question.daveS
March 11, 2019
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@KF #15 said: "Not everything which is rational is reducible to mechanisms and devices, or computations. However, note, the Mandelbrot set is a fractal, which shows a beautiful pattern that was programmed, and we now use fractals to render clouds, rocks, etc. So, yes, we see some of the rational principles there, here scalar self-symmetry." The math gives us scalar self-symmetry. Only your mind can interpret it as beauty, hence beauty is purely subjective.Pater Kimbridge
March 11, 2019
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SB, food for thought indeed. I fear, you have a sobering point. The substitution of sensualism for beauty is indeed chaotic and in the end ruinous. KFkairosfocus
March 11, 2019
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H: Music normally has a pattern of rhythm,numerically related tonal patterns etc, the Indians have an intermediate between western notes but the same basic patterns obtain. LC, the art deco you show shows strong patterning and use of familiar shapes, as I also recall from cases I know. No they did not wholly abandon the sort of things I pointed to. There are some Po Mo cases that do, and they are objectively both ugly and weird. DS, A pointless hypothetical, pardon. The relevant monkeys are not rational, cognitively advanced creatures. That is why I pointed to the difference above. I doubt they have a concept of beauty, which as was noted above, is quite subtle. PK, Not everything which is rational is reducible to mechanisms and devices, or computations. However, note, the Mandelbrot set is a fractal, which shows a beautiful pattern that was programmed, and we now use fractals to render clouds, rocks, etc. So, yes, we see some of the rational principles there, here scalar self-symmetry. MNS Rationality does not equal reduction to mathematical formulae or axiomatic systems. Indeed, even Mathematics is not so reducible, as we know post Godel. The mathematical patterns in music are readily seen in the structure of instruments and the use of harmonic ratios in musical sound [e.g. an octave is a doubling in frequency], also rhythmic patterns with music and particularly percussion instruments. I note that it is very hard to fit in all the ratios together and how say a piano is tuned compromises to get a good enough behaviour. KFkairosfocus
March 11, 2019
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KF
SB, why are we so lacking of a sound aesthetics education? KF
The academy, which now serves the ruling class, does not want young minds to think noble thoughts since they lead to independence of thought. Beauty, a "transcendal," is the external manifestation of the other related transcendentals, such as goodness, truth, being and unity. All these metaphysical realities are a threat to the tyrants of thought control. A thorough study of beauty will prompt questions about the existence of the other transcendentals and lead to freedom from thought control.StephenB
March 11, 2019
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KFS, you "must" then appreciate the Eurythmics, who sought to apply mathematical principle in their music. Also Vanessa Hill, who heads up research on algae for fuel, she also does mathematically based dancing. But the truth is that people generally don't comprehend subjectivity itself, as shown by the large number of materialists.mohammadnursyamsu
March 11, 2019
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If beauty is an objective property, then build me a device to measure it.Pater Kimbridge
March 11, 2019
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KF,
DS, such animals are driven by instinct, stimuli and hormones not an aesthetic sense. They probably respond to what is the norm or programmed rather than to what is aesthetic, which is obviously a very high level cognitive function.
Sure, but if humans looked like that monkey, would we think we were beautiful? Nevermind what the monkeys think, if anything.daveS
March 11, 2019
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There may be principles of aesthetic judgement giving a rational framework for what objective beauty is, but every time we think we have that figured out along comes another world-wide movement like Art Deco that ridiculously permeates culture to include art, graphic design, architecture, furniture design, interior design, textiles, clothing, automobile and home appliances. It took hold in America during the 1920’s and up until WWII permeated even the public purse during FDRs New Deal spending. If a new Post Office was going to be built somewhere they had to have an Art Deco architect design it. It was SO modern. Today only a few examples remain in historically protected places like South Beach in Florida (Miami), and even in Napier, New Zealand as it was a world-wide fad. https://pixabay.com/photos/art-deco-miami-beach-south-3703012/ Art Deco stated an opinion which said humanity was in a new age and it needed to cast off previous ideas about beauty. And people did. Like most such things opinions change. So while at times everyone thinks they know what beauty is as it turns out this is not entirely true. It appears to be subjective. But if you examine some examples of Art Deco many are still appealing today. Because some work of beauty still moves people’s thoughts and emotions even across a long period of time it’s suggestive that there might be some elemental part of it that is rational, and thus we might be able to identify what it consists of. This is a mistake materialists make in a lot of categories. What remains to us across the gulf in time between when something was created by Leonardo, as an example, the thing that binds thought and feeling is not the art itself but the people observing the art. Leonardo, like us, was human and felt the way about beauty that we do. Leonardo had a spirit, and so do we. Many mathematical proofs contain beauty. Claiming that there is artistic or aesthetic rational principles behind them is something Sabine Hossenfelder, much quoted here at UD has a thing or two to say about much more eloquently than I. In answer to the question of why there are classics, we have all been created in the image of the Designer, and without putting too fine a point on it, we all share similar conscious thoughts about beauty and much else besides, in the past as well as today. As far as the attempt to identify principles and design patterns that create beauty, like symmetry, balance and etc., this is like a quote I read here in another OP about someone soldering wires and switches together in an attempt to create Microsoft Windows 7, or something similar. The idea towards solving the problem of beauty by doing it this way isn’t even wrong.LoneCycler
March 11, 2019
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