Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

A warning for atheists and agnostics interested in the question of design …

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The Moral Landscape: How Science Can Determine Human ValuesYou might have a hard time explaining your interest to “new atheist” Sam Harris. Having just received a courtesy hard cover copy of his The Moral Landscape: How Science Can Determine Human Values (Free Press, 2010), I looked at the index and noted that the reader seeking information about intelligent design theory is referred to: Creationist “science.” Harris may well have written the index himself (?).

Well, following the page references, on p. 34, in the midst of a discussion of why it is wrong to think there is moral equivalence between typical human views of murder and Jeffrey Dahmer’s*, we read,

It is, perhaps, worth remembering that there are trained “scientists” who are Biblical Creationists, and their “scientific” thinking is purposed toward interpreting the data of science to fit the Book of Genesis. Such people claim to be doing “science,” of course, but real scientists are free, and indeed obligated, to point out that they are misusing the term. Similarly, there are people who claim to be highly concerned about “morality” and “human values,” but when we see that their beliefs cause tremendous misery, nothing need prevent us from saying that they are misusing the term “morality or that their values are distorted.

So, ID theorists, you are all just Bible thumpers with labs/computers. And Darwin doubting atheists/agnostics exploring design, you are just chums with people who can be compared to those who cause tremendous misery. A scientist said it. It must be true. You must repent either of interest in design in nature or of interest in Sam Harris.

*I doubt whether cannibal and necrophiliac Dahmer is a good example of moral equivalence in North American society; after all, he was sent to prison for life (and murdered there). I haven’t read the book yet, but if this is representative of the author’s insight, it’s all best taken in sparing doses.

(Note: Here’s the post on atheist and agnostic ID sympathizers, recently stuck to the top.)

Comments
Vox Day is too intellectual for meparagwinn
May 13, 2011
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I humbly air the possibility that Harris isn't really concerned about being right, so much as convincing people. And not necessarily even that, so much as giving his admirers something to parrot and put stock in.nullasalus
May 13, 2011
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I think Vox Day described Harris best in his sarcastic book, The Irrational Atheist
Great book, lol.Mung
May 13, 2011
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I read The End of Faith and was not really surprised to see that his entire thesis was based on a logical fallacy (overgeneralization). I started reading Letter to a Christian Nation but had to put it down because I was laughing so hard. I think Vox Day described Harris best in his sarcastic book, The Irrational Atheist: "Sam Harris is so superlatively wrong that it will require the development of esoteric mathematics operating simultaneously in multiple dimensions to fully comprehend the orders of magnitude of his wrongness."Barb
May 13, 2011
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Hi UBP, Does the Universe, in its evolution, constantly generate new information? Or are information and information-processing exclusive attributes of living systems, related to the very definition of life? Information and Its Role in NatureMung
May 13, 2011
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BTW... Just as a point of clarity, all living organisms create information all the time. The ability to respond and react to their environment entails (at least) the creation and use of transient information as a systematic necessity.Upright BiPed
May 13, 2011
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Mung, I think JDH is simply suggesting that his dog cannot mark the neighbor's tree with another poochie's pee. :)Upright BiPed
May 13, 2011
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A human being can make up an arbitrary lie. That means I can create new information.
So now "the designer" is a liar?Mung
May 13, 2011
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bevets at 1:
If a person doesn’t think there is a God to be accountable to, then — then what’s the point of trying to modify your behavior to keep it within acceptable ranges?
Do you agree with Damher on this point?jurassicmac
May 13, 2011
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JDH @ 3:
0. No matter how you package it, atheism always leads to some form of materialism.
Incorrect. There are millions of non-materialistic atheists. Buddhists, for example.
1. No matter how you package it, materialism ends up insisting that things only happen in response to a physical law or a random process.
Incorrect. Quantum physics indicate that some things may be indeterminate. But even if that were not the case, it would have no bearing the reliability of mental processes.
2. No matter how you package it, rational choice can not be the result of a mere physical law or random process. Otherwise it is not a rational choice.
Incorrect. If that were the case, computers operating according to natural law couldn't make rational choices or yield correct answers.
3. Therefore the statement, ” I made a rational choice to be an atheist,” is a statement which can not possibly to be true.
Since all three of your premises are shaky, please excuse some of us for rejecting your conclusion.jurassicmac
May 13, 2011
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uoflcard I think materialists have a basic problem. Arbitrary choices can not be made by a law abiding process. Or to put it another way, New Information can not be created by a law abiding process. Its like the fact that my dog and I make decisions differently. ( At least I think ). He has a brain that makes decisions based on competing factors and drives ( hunger, need for affection... ) But looking at the way my dog responds you can know what competing drives were there. My dog can only respond. He can not create new information. This is because my dog is not able to lie. Law abiding machines ( and non-human biological systems ) can not tell arbitrary lies. A human being can make up an arbitrary lie. That means I can create new information. If I am only responding to drives - I am not creating any new information, I am only running the information through a new filter. If I can tell an arbitrary lie, than I am creating new information which is independent of what happened before. To repeat. I don't see why the atheist viewpoint has any following at all. I can imagine someone saying I don't know the exact characteristics of God. But in light of our ability to create new information, it is foolish for human beings to believe there is no God.JDH
May 13, 2011
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JDH, the only possible hole I might see is that a law-abiding process can make rational decisions, assuming its laws are designed to yield those decisions. i.e., a computer program following a decision pathway. A materialist says that each and every thought we have is dictated by vast decision pathways in our brains, which were "designed" by random mutation + natural selection. The two biggest problems I have with that sentiment (among many) are: 1.) The information content of our thoughts greatly exceeds the developmental capabilities of human evolution since we most recently split from our ape cousins. And this is ASSUMING that a) evolution is actually capable of developing neurological decision pathways and b) our thoughts truly are the product of physics in our brains. 2.) Our problem-solving capabilities (not information processing, but information analysis) has never been duplicated by a known law-driven process (i.e. a computer). And I'm not talking about to the extent of our capabilities, but even the essence of them. If a computer is presented with a problem that has hundreds, thousands, millions or more of possible responses, it processes each possibility until either the best or first solution is discovered (whatever is programmed). If we are presented with problem that has hundreds, thousands, millions or more of possible responses, we analyze the situation and choose a suitable option with a tiny fraction of the iterations the computer used. The materialists says we haven't discovered the physics of how our brains do this yet; others say only true intelligence can do this, not the laws of nature.uoflcard
May 13, 2011
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I still don't understand why the atheistic view of the universe has any following at all. 0. No matter how you package it, atheism always leads to some form of materialism. 1. No matter how you package it, materialism ends up insisting that things only happen in response to a physical law or a random process . 2. No matter how you package it, rational choice can not be the result of a mere physical law or random process. Otherwise it is not a rational choice. 3. Therefore the statement, " I made a rational choice to be an atheist," is a statement which can not possibly to be true. Does someone see a hole in this? I mean, atheism could be true, but then there would be no rational choices, and the whole argument would be uninteresting.JDH
May 13, 2011
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Sam Harris: LOL Nuff saidmike1962
May 13, 2011
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If a person doesn't think there is a God to be accountable to, then -- then what's the point of trying to modify your behavior to keep it within acceptable ranges? That's how I thought anyway. I always believed the theory of evolution as truth, that we all just came from the slime. When we, when we died, you know, that was it, there is nothing ~ Jeffrey Dahmerbevets
May 13, 2011
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