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Are dinosaurs the real reason young Christians in college desert their faith?

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Readers will recall that geneticist Todd Wood offered an apology recently for involvement he may have had with Tim Stafford’s The Adam Quest, which—he felt—did not treat young Earth creationists like hmself fairly. Here’s Stafford giving his own view at HuffPo:

One of the scientists I profile in my book, the well-known paleontologist Mary Schweitzer, teaches at North Carolina State University. She says that many of the undergraduates who take her course, “Dinosaur World,” come from conservative churches. “They see the data for evolution, and they are placed in an uncomfortable position, splitting their heads and their hearts. They usually choose to walk away from their faith.

Somehow I doubt that is the actual reason. Most often, I suspect, the real reason is the discovery that Biblical values against lying, stealing, casual relationships of all kinds, and corruption generally are just so not cool any more. They are not how the top people got where they are. The dinosaur is a respectable excuse because he is irrelevant to all that, and dead anyway

What do we want for our children? What do people on both sides want for their children? Most people would say that they want their children to be scientifically literate, and to have a chance at a career using science.

But today, being scientifically literate and having a career in science are two different things.

“Scientifically literate” means understanding why falsification is important, just for example. Having a career in science may mean campaigning against it because it threatens cherished beliefs, like the multiverse.

See also: Copernicus, you are not going to believe who is using your name. Or how.

Comments
My first comments on this site after a year of lurking or so. I just wanted to weigh in on a few things. Just by way of my background - I'm a YEC, have an M.S. and am a user researcher for technology products. 1) I think that anyone who calls themselves a Christian and who doesn't have the wherewithal to withstand the wolves in sheep's clothing at college doesn't deserve the moniker "Christian". Anyone who loves their Christian faith will have no problems finding answers to most of the challenges that their professors are offering. And those questions that are still unanswered by YEC are certainly still conceivably answerable in the future. Heck, naturalism/materialism should be dead based on Quantum Mechanics alone. YOUR PROFESSORS DON'T HAVE A VIABLE ALTERNATIVE THEORY! You are going to throw away knowledge of the Creator and salvation from moral culpability for WHAT? For a nihilistic materialism that can't possibly be true? That is not a Christian, I'm sorry. That's not someone who truly values their faith. 2)Christianity is irrevocably tied to at least 2 tenets of YEC. -1 Death being the result of sin. Why? Because the incarnation and death of Jesus makes no sense without the foundation that the curse brought about. Otherwise you end up with a Christianity that denies the Atonement, and makes Jesus into a really great example, perhaps a prophet. This is what liberal Christianity looks like. It has the veneer of Christianity, but it is really some sort of other thing. It is Theistic, not Christian in a Biblical sense. -2 Less directly, Christians MUST believe that a world wide flood is responsible for the way the geologic column looks. Although the flood is of more historically meaningful than theologically meaningful, it matters that that the column does not stand for the naturalist explanation of it. If there is not flood story, then the Geologic column becomes the story of either evolution or some iterative design experiment. Either way, death came before the fall the story in the Christian scriptures is a lie or, at best, a metaphor that renders the Christ story meaningless. If you throw away the meaning of death and the historical event of the flood, you throw away the substance of Christianity. Now, I have no problem with people struggling with this. I think that instead of throwing away their religion, many people believe incompatible things. I have great respect for the people actively dealing with this struggle. I just think that in the end, they will probably end up coming up YEC if they want to maintain an active and lively faith.Clive
February 2, 2014
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Nick Matzke writes,
You really think students are taught by professors that lying and cheating are cool in college,
http://www.bestcollegereviews.org/cheating/ See for yourself. Students will do what they need to do to get a passing grade, get the degree, and hopefully get the job that will eventually make them a lot of money, which is what is defined as “success” in today’s world. In 1980, a New York City district attorney charged 11 public-school teachers with forging or falsifying their own educational records to get promotions and wage hikes. The district attorney said that they would not be prosecuted, though, because they should not be “singled out for committing acts which were rampant [among teachers] throughout the entire New York City school system.” Here in Georgia, there is a scandal involving the superintendent of a school district as well as many teachers. Read it for yourself: http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/02/justice/georgia-cheating-scandal/ Please don’t pretend that it doesn’t happen. It does, and with more regularity than you think.
and that lying and cheating is how the professors got on top,
Falsifying research is nothing new. Don’t pretend that it doesn’t happen. Again, read it for yourself: http://abovethelaw.com/2013/11/law-school-professor-busted-lying-to-federal-judge-goes-back-to-teaching-ethics/ (and enjoy the irony that the professor who lied is teaching ethics, of all things). From Northwestern University in Chicago: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011-04-06/news/ct-met-protess-northwestern-0407-20110406_1_david-protess-medill-school-journalism-professor
and the students conclude that lying and cheating are cool and that’s why they abandon the faith? Have you ever dealt with or talked to any actual college students experiencing the science-vs-faith issue?
What else would the students conclude? If success is defined as making money and owning a lot of things, and students see professors or teachers doing these things while falsifying research, doctoring records, or exaggerating on their resumes, then what else is one to assume?Barb
February 2, 2014
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scordova @9 I totally agree that Keller's thinking on evolutionism misses the mark. However, he does correctly convey that Christianity is ultimately about a relationship with Jesus Christ, and when an individual has a weak relationship with Him, or does something to damage the relationship, rather than repent, they may start looking for a way out. It is unfortunate that Keller currently does not see the slippery slope that a dogmatic evolutionary professor provides for a student whose relationship with Christ is strained. I pray that soon, Keller will realize his own unbiblical position regarding evolutionism.gensci
February 2, 2014
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Joe @14, The Trinity is nonsense and a lie, of course. Jesus himself said "I and the Father are ONE" and "I am in the Father and the Father is in me". This is analogous to the right and left hemispheres of the brain. It is pure yin and yang.Mapou
February 2, 2014
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Can one be a Christian even if you don't accept Jesus is God?Joe
February 2, 2014
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Joe, you can be a Christian and reject trinitarianismCentralScrutinizer
February 2, 2014
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The reason I left Christianity isn't because of the donosaurs. It is because I found out that the Trinity was contrived, not derived.Joe
February 2, 2014
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drc466 @11, Look man. I am not in a good mood, right now. Don't even address me, alright? I got no respect for you and your kind. I am not afraid of you nor am I deterred by either you or the Darwinists and the atheists. You are all one of a kind, IMO, purveyors of lies and deception. The devil is your God and you can all kiss my asteroid. How about that?Mapou
February 2, 2014
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As a guy who's never been a YEC, I'd have to agree with the view that the real problem usually has very little to do with 'the truth of evolution'. I've talked to far many people, even people who were vehement about 'the truth of evolutionary theory!', whose extent of knowledge basically cashed out to "all the scientists say it's true!" It follows particularly if you look at any course requirements for a college education. Unless you're going into a scientific field - and frankly, most students are not - you're going to get piecemeal exposure to the relevant science at best. But man, you will get sometimes professors speaking derisively about Christianity or creationism in english or political science courses.nullasalus
February 2, 2014
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@7 Mapou, I can't speak for all YEC'ers, of course, but personally my belief in God as Creator serves as the foundation for my belief. If God didn't Create Adam as first man, and Adam's sin didn't bring death into the world, and Jesus didn't have to die because of that sin, Christian doctrine starts to get a little fuzzy for me. So I'm going to have to respectfully agree to disagree - young earth creation is a very important part of Christianity, and should be defended vigorously. That is the way I see it and no, I am not sorry for saying it. I always try to tell it like I see it.drc466
February 2, 2014
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As far as "deserting their faith" - I'd say it was more a case of "deserting their parent's faith", and I'd agree it was mostly a case of the anti-Christian environment, more than the specific topic of evidence for evolution v creation. One caveat - I think this is true for the vast majority of "casual" Christian students (claim to be Christian but after "deserting the faith" you don't really see any lifestyle change), or "noisy" Christian students (emotional, loud proclaimers of righteousness who eventually can't handle the ridicule because being the "good kid" doesn't win them praise like it did in high school and/or church back home). Rarely were either of these sincere to begin with (IMHO). On the other hand, there is a small minority of quiet, thoughtful Christian students who are adversely affected specifically by evolutionary preaching. Students who have internalized their belief, but have trouble reconciling their belief with the constant pressure from peers, professors and publications. These are naturally the type of person who will resent the argument from authority that they sometimes get from their YEC-believing authority-figures growing up. When confronted with the "easy-wins" against YEC like radioactive elements and distant starlight, it can be a crisis of faith. One only has to examine the vitriol spewed by Nick above to see the kind of pressure applied on Bible-believing kids when they get to college. I think "dinosaurs" get the blame because professors in evolutionary-fields tend to take radical atheism and open anti-religion to higher levels than, say, your average accounting or engineering professor.drc466
February 2, 2014
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A couple of weeks ago, New York City pastor Timothy Keller tweeted about college students turning from faith in Christ. He said when he visits with students who are struggling, his first question is often “who are you sleeping with?” Dinosaur history is a symptom, not the cause.
If that's the case, it proves exactly my point about bullying. Points the accusing finger first, doesn't even to bother to ask and listen. And this from Wikipedia:
On creationism, Keller states his view is not strictly literal and that evolution is "neither ruled in nor ruled out" in his church.[18] For instance, Keller has written on theistic evolution for the Biologos Foundation.[19]
So much for apologetics! I have to be a little restrained here because he is a pastor and elder in my denomination (PCA), and folks in my church in Virginia know him. But in the case of Keller, is he right there with Nick Matzke advocating evolution and then he wonders why someone might leave the faith when a "science" theory shows little need of God in the creation of life. Glad I didn't have a Darwinist sympathizer like Keller for my pastor.
misled by professional ignoramuses promoted by their church.
In the case of a Darwinist sympathizer conservative pastor given all the data we have, yeah I agree. Keller in his own words sympathizing with Darwinism: http://biologos.org/uploads/projects/Keller_white_paper.pdf
Dinosaur history is a symptom, not the cause.
In this case Keller is a willing accessory to belief in evolution and old aged dinosaurs. Sorry to disagree so vehemently with a Pastor in my own denomination, but Dr. Keller, I'm glad a Darwinist sympathizer like you was not my pastor. And he wonders why someone might leave the faith?scordova
February 2, 2014
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Romans 1:18-19 (NASB) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. Colosians 2:8 (NASB) See to it that no one takes you captive ['spoil' in the KJV] through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. JGuy
February 2, 2014
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scordova:
Hardline YEC I think can be damaging to faith if it is taught as all or nothing. It is bad if there is an unwillingness to say, “a literal reading of the Bible suggests YEC, but the data in hand don’t make a convincing case, yet”.
As a Christian, I am just as angry and disgusted with young-earth creationists as I am with Darwinists. The whole thing strikes me as an evil (or shall I say, Satanic?) ploy to drive smart people away from Christianity. The doctrine that the entire Bible is the inerrant word of God, that it should be read and understood literally and that humans walked with dinosaurs is evil and idolatrous, IMO. I don't care if this comes out as offensive to some because the whole thing pisses me off to no end. That is the way I see it and no, I am not sorry for saying it. I always try to tell it like I see it.Mapou
February 2, 2014
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“They see the data for evolution, and they are placed in an uncomfortable position, splitting their heads and their hearts. They usually choose to walk away from their faith."
Strange, I went to college to disprove my parents' PoV wrt our place in history, ie we are special and did not evolve from non-humans. And all I found was a glossy narrative based on imagination as opposed to any known materialistic mechanism. Now I don't understand why any human would want to be related to chimps.Joe
February 2, 2014
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A couple of weeks ago, New York City pastor Timothy Keller tweeted about college students turning from faith in Christ. He said when he visits with students who are struggling, his first question is often "who are you sleeping with?" Dinosaur history is a symptom, not the cause.gensci
February 2, 2014
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Having counseled college students that were on the brink of losing their faith, at least some fraction were on the brink of leaving because the creation evolution issue. I knew one student who was an agnostic that was more willing to convert after I had the chance to encourage her to read Robert Jastrow (Old Universe) and Michael Denton (also Old Universe). Hardline YEC I think can be damaging to faith if it is taught as all or nothing. It is bad if there is an unwillingness to say, "a literal reading of the Bible suggests YEC, but the data in hand don't make a convincing case, yet". If instead, you get the standard line, "you're sinning and attacking Christianty for thinking otherwise, there must be some sin in your life causing you to doubt doubting, you need to read the Bible and see that God created the world 6000 years ago". Of course the youth will leave. That's bullying, that's not a reasoned defense of the faith. Expressing doubt in certain conservative circles is treated by some church circles like ID proponents expressing questions in secular circles. Lot's of bullying, not real dialogue, not empathy. Yeah, I nearly left the church because of it. I was victim of it, and I had no end of resentment toward other YECs because of it, which is sometime reflected in my posts at UD.
misled by professional ignoramuses promoted by their church.
For once I agree with Nick. Lots of those types in the church. Authoritarian bullies. Usually not the professional pastors who are more diplomatic, but other parishioners. I was a science student, I sometimes thought to myself, "You studied the bible at a bible college. I can study the bible too. How about some credible arguments instead of recitation of creeds." I think Nick tells it like it is. Nancy Pearcey and I occasionally attended the same church in Virginia (she lived a half mile from me before moving) after I returned to the faith. When I read her book Saving Leonardo I was shocked when she described how anti-intellectual and intolerant of doubters the modern conservative protestant church had become. I was shocked because that's exactly how I saw that culture and she was willing to tell it like it is. Amazing that I remained a creationist, and not only gone from Old Earth Creationist, to Young Earth Creationist. Why? Because I had the chance to examine the evidence and arguments for myself and to argue with guys like Nick Matzke and Wesley Elsberry and others to see if they could defend evolutionary theory. I concluded the case against Darwinism and OOL was a rout, the case for ID reasonably circumstantial, and the case for YEC weak and inconclusive, but not totally refuted, and the case of youth in dinosaurs, pretty convincing. The distant starlight and long and intermediate term radiometric dating are still thorns in the side of YEC, but I think there is a great God out there, and if he intends for us to discover a solution, it will be found. So thank you Nick Matzke for helping me see the light. Debating you those like you like Richard Hoppe, Pim van Meurs, Andrea Bottaro with your guys ad hominems, your put downs, your equivocations, your non-sequiturs, your obvious desperate bias were instrumental in my return to the Christian faith. You helped convince me evolutionary theory is so vacuous that it can only be defended with distortions, equivocation, circular reasoning and worse bullying than what I suffered from fellow creationist. So as much I resented my fellow YEC, I've come to resent evolutionists even more. Each time I debated you, I got more reassurance all you had was smoke and mirrors. I came to this debate 13 years ago, and people like you were instrumental in making me a believer in ID because you behaved exactly like some of the creationist bullies I had to deal with. Thankfully, the debate isn't settled by personalities in the end, it is settled by the coherency of explanations. So yes, regrettably I agree with
misled by professional ignoramuses promoted by their church.
except I would instead say amateur ignoramuses since professional clergy usually weren't the sore spot but rather fellow parishioners.scordova
February 2, 2014
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Teaching evolutionism as a fcat is a lie, Nick. Teaching we are here by a matter of chance is not science, Nick and that is all your position has. Formation of the earth? Lucky cosmic collisions. Humans? Accumulations of/ culled genetic accidents. IOW the "cause" are lying, shameless professors. There isn't any evidence for blind watchmaker evolution, Nick. YOU can't even provide a testable hypothesis for such a scenario.Joe
February 2, 2014
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You really think students are taught by professors that lying and cheating are cool in college
Speaking of honesty, Nick Matzke, consider yourself personally invited to answer my 10-question quiz in the ID thread. Why, I'm surprised you haven't taken part yet. Surely a veteran of these discussions will be able to pass the quiz with flying colors!nullasalus
February 2, 2014
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Somehow I doubt that is the actual reason. Most often, I suspect, the real reason is the discovery that Biblical values against lying, stealing, casual relationships of all kinds, and corruption generally are just so not cool any more. They are not how the top people got where they are.
Well, that's idiotic. You really think students are taught by professors that lying and cheating are cool in college, and that lying and cheating is how the professors got on top, and the students conclude that lying and cheating are cool and that's why they abandon the faith? Have you ever dealt with or talked to any actual college students experiencing the science-vs-faith issue? This specific going-to-college issue has been known for decades, and the root cause of the common "crisis of faith" is known too: students find out that evolution/old earth actually does make sense, and does have tons of evidence, and that they were lied to (intentionally or not) by their church/pastors/community/home schooling that taught them a line of imaginary bull about origins throughout their upbringing. THAT'S what causes the crisis of faith! Some people can separate the creationism out from the Christianity and remain Christians, generally of a theistic evolution sort. Other people wonder if their religion was so wrong about such a relatively simple and checkable scientific issue, what else might they be wrong about, and sometimes (not always) they slide all the way to atheism, sometimes of an angry sort still mad at how they were lied to and misled by professional ignoramuses promoted by their church.NickMatzke_UD
February 2, 2014
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