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Dover a half decade later: And what difference did it really make?

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A friend offers observations about the Dover (Kitzmiller) decision (2005).

 I didn’t cover it, because everyone else did, and I was writing a book, under contract, about something else, basically. Just as well. Everyone else who cared seemed to be on the scene already, and I was otherwise occupied.

Essentially, modern American culture is biased toward atheism, and nothing suits atheism better than Darwinism, its creation story. That Darwin himself thought so can be determined from his own writings, so one does get tired of the various bible school profs, museum curators, and textbook writers who pretend otherwise.

If you believe it, fine. If you don’t, why suck up to it?

I exempt the sweet museum docent who merely landed a summer job and does not know what is at stake. Unfortunately, she might find out later, if her boyfriend dumps here when she is pregnant, and the boyfriend has no idea that he is even doing anything wrong when he just suggests that she has an abortion, still less that there is any reason why he (not the girl, especially if she refuses) should be banished from polite society.*

*Darwinism? Yes, of course. That guy is saving his selfish genes for a more worthwhile and advantageous woman. Or maybe there is no selfish gene, just people misbehaving, who do not wish to accept responsibility for their activities?

Don’t believe me? Watch the 1951 film, A Place in the Sun, where a clergyman patiently explains to a guy why he really is guilty of murder, and you will see the difference between Judaeo-Christian culture and what happened later.

But, back to the main point, what really surprised me was how little public effect followed from Dover, in the long run. The usual professional tax burdens raged and thumped, of course, and their clever public opinion managers have recruited identified Christians who say that evidence for design in the universe is the reason that the last nail has not been driven into the coffin of design in the universe.

But few people who did not believe the Darwin nonsense before do so now. And courts cannot enforce against what most people must really know.

See, that’s the big thing. Anyone can get a prof or reverend somewhere to rant against the idea that the universe shows evidence of design. It is much more useful than getting an atheist soap boxer to do the same thing. Darwin lobby honch, Eugenie Scott, said that herself here (one of many references).

Don’t trust the court system you pay taxes for to decide against the continuing Darwin imposture; they have every reason to decide for it – not because it is true but because the idea that there is no design, no responsibility, and no free will makes your local tax burdens’ lives a lot easier. They can force you to support them while they do nothing of consequence.

And they may even be doing something that harms you. What if they are persecuting a local white coat who is actually developing useful treatments, but he refuses to affirm Darwinism as true? So they run him out of town. The question hangs: Do you want help for your problems or do you want the Darwinist’s ideology?

Comments
Petrushka Creationism is not banned because of claims its not science but rather because its claimed to be religious. This is the law. The law used to censor creationism. Therefore, logically, if creationism is illegal because it would mean the state is making an opinion on religion, the illegal thing here, then the state by teaching evolution is also making an opinion on religion and by banning God/Genesis it is making an opinion since it is teaching the truth of origins. The law, which i say is a '60's invention, is only being applied one way and so is null and void. The law is about neutrality claims. Yet in origin issues its censorship is not neutral but a state opinion on conclusions in origins. Where am i wrong in my reasoning?Robert Byers
June 30, 2010
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I suppose the word creationist doesn't count.Petrushka
June 30, 2010
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Since this was apparently the centerpiece of the trial, I thought it would be worth asking why people continue to falsely claim the early drafts of Pandas and People were "creationist." Has anyone managed to find any of the following in the early drafts? 1. A supernatural god... 2. ...created everything out of nothing. 3. Made everything in less than a week. 4. The Earth is less than 10,000 years old. 5. A global catastrophic flood created an appearance of age. 6. Fossils are there just to "test our faith." 7. There cannot possibly be any way a common lineage might exist between apes and humans. 8. Last but not least, we must rely on the bible or other sacred text in order to draw conclusions. Since none of these were present in any of the earlier drafts I think the safest thing we can say is that the main piece of evidence the ACLU Jones used to make his point was no where near what it was purported to be.F2XL
June 29, 2010
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If you can’t teach creationism is true then you can’t teach its untrue.
You can teach the findings of science. If creationists disagree with astronomers about the movement of the earth, or with physicists about its age, they need to provide evidence using the methods of science. I suspect if the "controversy" were taught, it would be taught as the history of science, with folks like Hutton and Lyell brought in. The more you know about the century of science leading up to Darwin, the less it looks like a modern conspiracy.Petrushka
June 29, 2010
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O'Leary (11), People do odd stuff. There's been nothing uin human history - science or religion - that hasn't been abused by someone the minute it's been invented. There is a good reason why people should make to disctinction if Darwinism is true - it's red in tooth and claw, and we humans have had enough of that. Saying we are slaves to nature is to deny our humanity.Gaz
June 29, 2010
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The descision only imapcted a small insignificant district in Pennsylvannia. It has no "power" any other place on Earth. And it was too bad it wasn't appealed. But what can happen now is the same thing that happened with John Scopes- IDists should go to that district and get some teacher to start talking about ID in the classroom. That should bring on another trial...Joseph
June 29, 2010
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“’tis true, and the religion of atheism enjoys the support of our tax dollars and is taught in our schools.” *gasp* Now the pretend-atheists (*) are going to go batty vociferously denying the blatantly obvious *gasp* Cultic practices, with showy, are not the important part of (generalized) religion. The important part of religion is the attempt to present a sensible and coherent accounting of reality, a framework to begin to make sense of the world and our place in it. Now, it’s true that atheism’s accounting of reality fails in that regard, but the failure doesn’t make atheism any less religious than Christianity is. (*) Pretend-atheists -- most self-identifying atheists, especially the village-atheist-with-DSL sort, only play at being an atheist, and studiously avoid grasping the logical implications of God-denial.Ilion
June 29, 2010
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modern American culture is biased toward atheism Graham says, "Are you serious ? The US is saturated in religion." 'tis true, and the religion of atheism enjoys the support of our tax dollars and is taught in our schools.suckerspawn
June 29, 2010
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Dover is not about science and origins. Its about it being said illegal for the American people through their legislatures to demand time or equal time for the historical and common opinions that God and/or Genesis is a true option for origins or to challenge conclusions about points of origins as now held/taught in the origin subjects. Its about censorship/speech control/thought control. Creationism in America simply needs better lawyers. The founding people who made the constitution, Yankee and Southern British Protestants, did not put in it anything that would allow the banning of God/Genesis on origin subjects in public schools. Itsabsurd. In fact they would of banned anything questioning same. The topic didn't come up. Its only since the '60's that the present "law" has come to pass. Science class is not about scientific approaches to origins but in fact is about conclusions on origins. The 'science' anyways can not be used by thye state to deny conclusions of origins by anything touching on religion. Creationism is banned because it touches on religion. If you can't teach creationism is true then you can't teach its untrue. That is the law as invented in the '60's.Robert Byers
June 29, 2010
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"That was a bit of a ramble, but the upshot for me is that Darwinism is an explanation for the origin of species – nothing more." Yeah, I know that I always explain things by saying "hits happen!"Ilion
June 29, 2010
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It's really too bad Dover wasn't appealed. What with all the legal errors and all.Petrushka
June 29, 2010
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The thing is, Gaz, people do not make such a distinction, and there is no reason why they should do so if Darwinism is true.O'Leary
June 28, 2010
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how little public effect followed from Dover It was a court case to settle a dispute. It did that, end of story. Was Jones supposed to transform society ?Graham
June 28, 2010
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O'Leary, That was a bit of a ramble, but the upshot for me is that Darwinism is an explanation for the origin of species - nothing more. It's certainly not a model for the way humans ought to live - quite the reverse. There's an enormous difference between using it to explain how species got here and using it as a template for human life.Gaz
June 28, 2010
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... and as for Dawkins, he's forever passing value-judgments that his theory-of-reality not only cannot support or warrant, but logically forbids. Though, it must also be recognized that his theory-of-reality can’t support logic, either.Ilion
June 28, 2010
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Gaz at 5: "But there have been other human societies – and many social mammal species – in which he wouldn’t be interested in raising the child at all, just be out looking to spread his genes with other females. The latter is, arguably, the classical Darwinist approach. Fortunately we have moved away from organising human society on Darwinist lines – and even Richard Dawkins agrees this is a good thing." Could I make this stuff up? Naw. Don't have the imagination. I don't care what Richard Dawkins agrees with, but as a grandmother I can make an excellent case for taking the blunt end of a broomstick to anyone who thinks as described above: " ... just be out looking to spread his genes with other females." People like me (grandmothers) are doubtless a key reason why population freaks are freaked out about the numerousness of human beings, which vastly exceeds their hopes. And, if Grandma's broomstick is no use, why are we not an endangered species? Why is the local wedding dress industry in my part of town such a big deal? Look, there is even a local event theatre down the street from me, catering to weddings. To say nothing of businesses catering for infant garb and infant transport facilities. Here is a hint: It takes about two decades to properly raise a human being. (I know. I have done it, under difficult circumstances.) I don't think that any of it has anything to do with Darwinism or the selfish gene, but it has a lot to do with people - who have real minds - seeing what needs to happen and making it so. And hey, I have even heard guys suggesting more serious remedies for tomcattery than I would ever consider. And if we have moved away from the "classical Darwinist approach" - which must have happened thousands of years ago, maybe in the days of Abraham and Sarah - then that is another blow against Darwinism, right? "Classical" Darwinism is really the only kind, and if it doesn't work, it is just plain wrong and should not be taught in tax-funded schools.O'Leary
June 27, 2010
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Everyone realizes that the selfish gene isn't about a gene that causes you to be selfish. Right?Fross
June 27, 2010
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Examples of witness credibility from Dover: "So that's a true statement, Professor Behe, that you're a co-author? A It is not now a true statement but it might be in the future."zeroseven
June 27, 2010
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Phaedros (3), True if he chose to act like a proper modern Western man and be involved in raising his child. But there have been other human societies - and many social mammal species - in which he wouldn't be interested in raising the child at all, just be out looking to spread his genes with other females. The latter is, arguably, the classical Darwinist approach. Fortunately we have moved away from organising human society on Darwinist lines - and even Richard Dawkins agrees this is a good thing.Gaz
June 27, 2010
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modern American culture is biased toward atheism Are you serious ? The US is saturated in religion.Graham
June 27, 2010
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Gaz- Not necessarily. It would involve a few different calculations as to how the girl having the baby would end up hindering his own selfishness.Phaedros
June 27, 2010
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O'Leary wrote: "*Darwinism? Yes, of course. That guy is saving his selfish genes for a more worthwhile and advantageous woman. Or maybe there is no selfish gene, just people misbehaving, who do not wish to accept responsibility for their activities?" The analysis here is wrong. A pure Darwinist approach would suggest that the guy spread his genes around as many women as he can - that is the main reason why many social mammal species have one male with a harem of all available females, whilst other males have to fight him and win to get access to females. Darwinism would involve your guy not only persuading the girl to have the child - with a view to the child continuing to propagate his genes in further generations - but then going off to do the same with as many other women as possible.Gaz
June 27, 2010
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Do you want help for your problems or do you want the Darwinist’s ideology?
I'd take real science over Darwinist ideology: Example of Darwinist ideology in 2005 at Dover Kitzmiller:
It doesn't work. It's a pseudogene, and a pseudogene is recognized as a gene because it's so similar to the other five in its DNA sequence, but it has some mistakes. It's broken, and it has a series of molecular errors that render the gene non-functional. ... It's just a mess. ... Now, the reason that this is important in evolution is actually very simple, and that is, these errors appear in a gene, they have no functional purpose. KEN MILLER Dover Transcript, 2005 http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dover/day1am2.html
Example of Modern Science:
We extended our analysis to other cancer-related genes that possess pseudogenes, such as oncogenic KRAS. .. These findings attribute a novel biological role to expressed pseudogenes, as they can regulate coding gene expression, and reveal a non-coding function for mRNAs. Prestigious Scientific Journal Nature 2010
On evidential grounds, this is grounds for a re-trial! But Judge Jones declared he settled the matter for all time!scordova
June 27, 2010
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