Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Is Darwinism an “Empty Theory”?

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At Evolution and News, there’s a link to a 2017 article tackling the problems of inflationary theory in the field of cosmology. What I find so interesting is the second to last paragraph in this six page article. Here’s how it reads:

A common misconception is that experiments can be used to falsify a theory. In practice, a failing theory gets increasingly immunized against experiment by attempts to patch it. The theory becomes more highly tuned and arcane to fit new observations until it reaches a state where its explanatory power diminishes to the point that it is no longer pursued. The explanatory power of a theory is measured by the set of possibilities it excludes. More immunization means less exclusion and less power. A theory like the multimess does not exclude anything and, hence, has zero power. Declaring an empty theory as the unquestioned standard view requires some sort of assurance outside of science. Short of a professed oracle, the only alternative is to invoke authorities. History teaches us that this is the wrong road to take.

Is he talking about Darwinism? No, about the “multimess” as he calls it. In the meantime, here we have a high-powered scientist telling us that a theory that lacks “explanatory power” is a theory that “excludes” very little. We have said here for years that Darwinism can accomodate ANYTHING; and, hence, it “explains” NOTHING. It is, to quote the author, an “empty theory” that “invoke[s] authorities” to keep it as the “unquestioned standard view.” Most compelling is his final thought: “History teaches us that this is the wrong road to take.”

How many more “epicycles” have to be trotted out by the scientific monopoly that is evolutionary biology before we get off this ‘wrong road’? We already have had too many.

Comments
Apparently dogdoc is too willfully ignorant to continue the conversation in a productive manner. There are many possible observations that is excluded by ID as being intelligently designed. There is even a way to falsify ID. But it is par for the course to have someone like dogdoc to have its questions answered and then having the audacity to say they weren't. dogdoc has been answered many times over. Its willful ignorance is not an argument.
Now, one can’t have it both ways. One can’t say both that ID is unfalsifiable (or untestable) and that there is evidence against it. Either it is unfalsifiable and floats serenely beyond experimental reproach, or it can be criticized on the basis of our observations and is therefore testable. The fact that critical reviewers advance scientific arguments against ID (whether successfully or not) shows that intelligent design is indeed falsifiable. In fact, my argument for intelligent design is open to direct experimental rebuttal. Here is a thought experiment that makes the point clear. In Darwin’s Black Box (Behe 1996) I claimed that the bacterial flagellum was irreducibly complex and so required deliberate intelligent design. The flip side of this claim is that the flagellum can’t be produced by natural selection acting on random mutation, or any other unintelligent process. To falsify such a claim, a scientist could go into the laboratory, place a bacterial species lacking a flagellum under some selective pressure (for mobility, say), grow it for ten thousand generations, and see if a flagellum--or any equally complex system--was produced. If that happened, my claims would be neatly disproven.(1) How about Professor Coyne’s concern that, if one system were shown to be the result of natural selection, proponents of ID could just claim that some other system was designed? I think the objection has little force. If natural selection were shown to be capable of producing a system of a certain degree of complexity, then the assumption would be that it could produce any other system of an equal or lesser degree of complexity. If Coyne demonstrated that the flagellum (which requires approximately forty gene products) could be produced by selection, I would be rather foolish to then assert that the blood clotting system (which consists of about twenty proteins) required intelligent design. Let’s turn the tables and ask, how could one falsify the claim that, say, the bacterial flagellum was produced by Darwinian processes?- Dr. Behe
And there is another instance of dogdoc's challenge being answered. We also know that it too, will be ignored.ET
January 21, 2022
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Apparently ET is too angry to continue the conversation in a productive manner. If anyone else can answer the simple point I've made here, I'd like to discuss it. Once again: Can anyone identify a single possible observation that is excluded by ID theory?dogdoc
January 21, 2022
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Dogdoc:
Just try calming down and accepting not everyone you disagree with is stupid, or willfully ignorant.
Give it a rest. It has nothing to do with a disagreement. When someone tells you exactly how to do something and you ignore it, it's willful ignorance. From Dr. Behe
Intelligent design is a good explanation for a number of biochemical systems, but I should insert a word of caution. Intelligent design theory has to be seen in context: it does not try to explain everything. We live in a complex world where lots of different things can happen. When deciding how various rocks came to be shaped the way they are a geologist might consider a whole range of factors: rain, wind, the movement of glaciers, the activity of moss and lichens, volcanic action, nuclear explosions, asteroid impact, or the hand of a sculptor. The shape of one rock might have been determined primarily by one mechanism, the shape of another rock by another mechanism. Similarly, evolutionary biologists have recognized that a number of factors might have affected the development of life: common descent, natural selection, migration, population size, founder effects (effects that may be due to the limited number of organisms that begin a new species), genetic drift (spread of "neutral," nonselective mutations), gene flow (the incorporation of genes into a population from a separate population), linkage (occurrence of two genes on the same chromosome), and much more. The fact that some biochemical systems were designed by an intelligent agent does not mean that any of the other factors are not operative, common, or important.
ID doesn't even try to explain everything.ET
January 21, 2022
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There isn’t even a scientific theory of evolution. Dogdoc:
I disagree, ...
No one cares. Link to it. Tell us who the author was. When was it published? What journal?
But there are not two choices, as I just explained.
Intelligently Designed or not is all there is.
I’m sure you would attack any theory inconsistent with ID...
Wrong again. I attack ideas that are inconsistent or lacking evidentiary support and testablity.
For example, I may say that life originated by means of physical self-organization mechanisms as described by Stuart Kauffman, or that speciation occurs by means of natural cellular genetic engineering as described by James Shapiro, and so on.
Evidentiary support and testability. That is what science demands.
Other people think the same thing about your theory. That is why everyone must come up with positive evidence for your theory rather than just attacking other theories.
ID has done both. Again, your ignorance is not an argument. The criteria for determining design can be summed by what Dr. Behe wrote in "Darwin's Black Box:
"Our ability to be confident of the design of the cilium or intracellular transport rests on the same principles to be confident of the design of anything: the ordering of separate components to achieve an identifiable function that depends sharply on the components.”
If we observe that, eliminate materialistic processes, we have intelligent design as the scientific inference.
You didn’t understand my point; please try again. I am not arguing that the immune system arose via mindless processes.
Then you don't have a point. You cannot say the immune system uses a naturalistic process unless you can show that it arose via blind and mindless processes! You are equivocating. And you have been busted. So, stop it.
There is nothing that could ever disconfirm ID.
And yet I told you exactly how to falsify ID.
Of course I feel that I’ve repeatedly explained my position to you, and that you are thus far incapable of understand what I’m saying.
All you have accomplished is to prove that you don't know what you are talking about. And you think that your willful ignorance is an argument. The ID hypothesis: 1) High information content (or specified complexity) and irreducible complexity constitute strong indicators or hallmarks of (past) intelligent design. 2) Biological systems have a high information content (or specified complexity) and utilize subsystems that manifest irreducible complexity. 3) Naturalistic mechanisms or undirected causes do not suffice to explain the origin of information (specified complexity) or irreducible complexity. 4) Therefore, intelligent design constitutes the best explanations for the origin of information and irreducible complexity in biological systems. Anyone with an IQ over 50 can see that there is a huge class of observations that ID excludes. So, what is Dogdoc’s issue?ET
January 21, 2022
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So that this is clear: The immune system contains the complex specified information that needs to be explained in the first place. It is beyond the pale to start off with that which needs explaining and think you have found an explanation for it. The immune system is only a natural mechanism in that immune systems are found in nature. However, there isn't any evidence that nature produced them. The blatant equivocation used by ID's detractors, while amusing, is still annoying.ET
January 21, 2022
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ET:
There isn’t any scientific theory of materialism.
This is of course true. "Materialism" is the name of a philosophical position regarding ontology, and the name is actually quite anachronistic, as it refers to a type of physicalism that was prevalent among scientists at the beginning of the 20th century, but not since.
There isn’t even a scientific theory of evolution.
I disagree, although as I've said here repeatedly it suffers from several problems. I certainly do not consider evolutionary theory to be a successful explanation of biological complexity. It is, however, falsifiable (but just barely), and the fact that you can build probability-based arguments against it prove that it is not compatible with any observation.
However, if there are TWO choices, intelligently designed or not, falsifying one is definitely going to provide support for the other.
But there are not two choices, as I just explained. I'm sure you would attack any theory inconsistent with ID, but the point is to support a scientific theory you must not merely attack other theories, you must provide positive evidence for your theory. For example, I may say that life originated by means of far-from-equilibrium self-organization mechanisms as described by Stuart Kauffman, or that speciation occurs by means of natural cellular genetic engineering as described by James Shapiro, and so on. You can call those ideas ill-conceived, or stupid, or whatever other epithet you choose, but the point remains: Other people think the same thing about your theory. That is why everyone must come up with positive evidence for your theory rather than just attacking other theories.
As I’ve explained, there are natural mechanisms that produce complex specified information, form and function – for example the immune system.
That is QUESTION-BEGGING. There isn’t any evidence that the immune system arose via blind and mindless processes.
You didn't understand my point; please try again. I am not arguing that the immune system arose via mindless processes. I am pointing out that antibodies contain high amounts of CSI, and they are produced in response to exposure to pathogens in a mindless, mechanical process. Thus, they defy your belief that mindless processes are incapable of producing CSI. Your response is to claim that even though the immune system operates mindlessly and produces CSI, the immune system itself must have been intelligently designed. And your response shows that no matter what disconfirming evidence is presented, ID can always just push the explanation back another step and claim intelligence was involved somewhere back the causal chain. This proves my point: There is nothing that could ever disconfirm ID.
People, like you, who are too clueless to understand what we are saying. How many times has this been explained to you and yet you repeat your ignorant trope? Your ignorance is willful
Of course I feel that I've repeatedly explained my position to you, and that you are thus far unable to understand what I'm saying. The difference is, I'm not angry and hateful and afraid and using ALL CAPS to scream at those I disagree with. Just try calming down and accepting not everyone you disagree with is stupid, or willfully ignorant. We just disagree.dogdoc
January 21, 2022
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Dogdoc:
And as we’ve seen, ID can explain any possible observation.
Only if you IGNORE everything IDists have said. Obviously, you have serious issues and need to seek help. The ID hypothesis: 1) High information content (or specified complexity) and irreducible complexity constitute strong indicators or hallmarks of (past) intelligent design. 2) Biological systems have a high information content (or specified complexity) and utilize subsystems that manifest irreducible complexity. 3) Naturalistic mechanisms or undirected causes do not suffice to explain the origin of information (specified complexity) or irreducible complexity. 4) Therefore, intelligent design constitutes the best explanations for the origin of information and irreducible complexity in biological systems. Anyone with an IQ over 50 can see that there is a huge class of observations that ID excludes. So, what is Dogdoc's issue?ET
January 21, 2022
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Dogdoc:
Rather, I am pointing out that since no possible observations are incompatible with design...
And we have explained why you are wrong. Not our fault that you have some sort of mental block.
Proving one theory false does not prove another theory true.
There isn't any scientific theory of materialism. There isn't even a scientific theory of evolution. However, if there are TWO choices, intelligently designed or not, falsifying one is definitely going to provide support for the other.
As I’ve explained, there are natural mechanisms that produce complex specified information, form and function – for example the immune system.
That is QUESTION-BEGGING. There isn't any evidence that the immune system arose via blind and mindless processes. Again, to falsify ID all one has to do is DEMONSTRATE that blind and mindless processes are sufficient. It isn't our fault that no one can do so.
What is it that makes you people so angry all the time?
People, like you, who are too clueless to understand what we are saying. How many times has this been explained to you and yet you repeat your ignorant trope? Your ignorance is willfulET
January 21, 2022
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KF and ET: You both keep reiterating the basic inference to design. I could not have been more clear that I am not debating the design inference. Rather, I am pointing out that since no possible observations are incompatible with design, ID lacks explanatory power - as was argued by PaV in the OP of this thread. Your only comeback seems to be "if we observe naturalistic mechanisms creating complex systems, then that would falsify ID". I have explained why this reasoning is faulty, but I will do so again: 1) Proving one theory false does not prove another theory true. Despite ID proponents' rhetoric, it makes no sense to lump all possible non-ID explanations together under the rubric of "naturalistic mechanisms" and declare that no such theory can be true. What you can do, of course, is attack some particular theory (such as Darwinian evolution) and argue why that theory is false. But instead you are trying to argue that no existing and no future theory that doesn't include the notion of an "intelligent cause" could explain biological complexity. That argument fails because we can't judge a theory that we do not know. Instead of (or in addition to) proving another theory wrong, you actually must make a case for your own theory. The inference to design is part of that work; you endlessly repeat these well-known points, but I have never argued against them. Instead, I am pointing out a problem with the explanation that ID provides. That problem is that - just as PaV says in the OP - a theory that can explain any possible observation explains nothing at all. And as we've seen, ID can explain any possible observation. 2) As I've explained, there are natural mechanisms that produce complex specified information, form and function - for example the immune system. But whenever such a system is observed, ID proponents do not concede that natural mechanical processes can produce CSI; instead, they just claim that the system in question was itself intelligently designed. Again, no matter what the observation, there is always the ability to infer design, and so no possible observation could ever be excluded by ID. And by the way, it is concerning how you both accuse me of "willful deceit" and "willful ignorance", and ET even calls me "stupid". What is it that makes you people so angry all the time? Why can't you just have a normal conversation about ideas, instead of getting your hackles up and throwing insults? Really, it's not normal. Relax, posting on internet forums isn't anything to get all riled up about. Seriously, take a breath, and try to be cordial and polite.dogdoc
January 21, 2022
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PaV: Regarding junk DNA you say:
ID theory would say that ANY such possibility would be minimal, to almost non-existent.
If you look for arguments for ID, you will see lots of essays (including by Meyers, Dembski, Behe) explaining that Intelligent Design does not mean Optimal Design. As you say, the evidence for optimal designs and no-junk DNA has certainly accumulated, but if it hadn't then it is evident that ID proponents would have no problem whatsoever accommodating those results. Again I don't recall who made the point about dead computer code, but it's a good example of how motivated reasoning can argue that any possible observable result is consistent with one's chosen theory, if that theory fails to specifically exclude a significant set of possible observations. And yes, I absolutely agree that this is true of evolutionary theory! (especially in shabby offshoots like "evolutionary psychology", which is mainly "just-so" stories that could never be falsified).
Darwinism is of almost no help whatsoever in the quest for knowledge.
I would emphasize "almost" here, but I'm not disagreeing with you :-)dogdoc
January 21, 2022
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Science DEMANDS the people making the claim, support it. You and yours cannot. You lose. JVL:
They have supported the claim.
Liar.
You haven’t pointed to any mistakes made in any research.
There isn't any research that demonstrates that any bacterial flagellum evolved by means of blind and mindless processes such as natural selection and drift. The same goes for any functional multi-protein complex. So perhaps you should just stop lying and bluffing. You are beyond sickeningET
January 21, 2022
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JVL:
Yes, it does! They are random when looked at from the perspective of fitness.
That doesn't mean they are accidents, errors or mistakes. And biological fitness is just survival and reproduction. There is a HUGE difference between selection and elimination. Your ignorance isn’t an argument.
No, there is not.
Then why do you think that it is?
If you select some variation then you chose to try and eliminate other variation. If you choose to eliminate some variation then you are selecting/saving other variations. They are two sides of the same coin.
Wow. From Ernst Mayr, in "What Evolution Is:
Do selection and elimination differ in their evolutionary consequences? This question never seems to have been raised in the evolutionary literature. A process of selection would have a concrete objective, the determination of the “best” or “fittest” phenotype. Only a relatively few individuals in a given generation would qualify and survive the selection procedure. That small sample would be only to be able to preserve only a small amount of the whole variance of the parent population. Such survival selection would be highly restrained. By contrast, mere elimination of the less fit might permit the survival of a rather large number of individuals because they have no obvious deficiencies in fitness. Such a large sample would provide, for instance, the needed material for the exercise of sexual selection. This also explains why survival is so uneven from season to season. The percentage of the less fit would depend on the severity of each year’s environmental conditions.
You lose, again.
No, you have not explained how the internal selection/guidance works. You have not explained how it is stored or encoded. You have not spelled out, clearly and coherently, how it works. You’ve just made assertions.
Wow. Again, your side is all about the how and yet you have nothing but your lies. Nerves work via some threshold. Most likely there are built-in responses to environmental cues. And it would work similar to sensors.
You clearly don’t even understand the verbiage.
I have forgotten more about evolution and biology than you know. And I don't forget.
They all support unguided means unless you can show that things are guided.
You are totally clueless. Unguided doesn't get a pass. Without evidentiary support, testable hypotheses and experiments, you don't have any science. Again, that does NOT address if the mutations are accidents, errors and mistakes. That alone makes it bullshit. Not my fault that you are too stupid to understand the debate.
You clearly don’t even understand the verbiage.
You clearly can't follow along. Saying mutations are "random with respect to fitness" does NOT address the question of are they spontaneous and stochastic or are they directed and telic? Not my fault that you are too stupid to understand that.
You’re just arguing because you don’t want to admit you’re wrong.
YOU aren't even wrong! Not only that but there is plenty of evidence to refute the claim of random with respect to fitness. And your ignorance on that isn’t an argument, either.
You do that work and submit it to a peer-reviewed journal.
It already is. Again, your willful ignorance is not an argument. And we are still waiting on those testable hypotheses for evolution by means of blind and mindless processes. Why is that?ET
January 21, 2022
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JVL you could get the same result if you repeated the experiment;
If you get the same result then "Houston, we have a problem!" with your "randomness. " If there is randomness then all the results will be different. ALL. Randomness debunked.
You clearly don’t even understand the verbiage. They are random, i.e. mistakes, errors, accidents, but they don’t necessarily occur randomly across the genome. But they are random, i.e. unpredictable, from a fitness point of view.
:))) They don't occur randomnly ...but they are random. Soup of words . We talk about the cause of a mutation not about the ability of the scientists to record/identify a mutation without knowing the intrinsic mechanism that produce them .Lieutenant Commander Data
January 21, 2022
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ET: And yet “random with respect to fitness” doesn’t address the fact that the mutations are accidents, errors and mistakes. Thank you for refuting yourself. Yes, it does! They are random when looked at from the perspective of fitness. I have no idea any more what you are arguing. You're not making any sense. LIAR. You are beyond pathetic. Always nice to have fans. There is a HUGE difference between selection and elimination. Your ignorance isn’t an argument. No, there is not. If you select some variation then you chose to try and eliminate other variation. If you choose to eliminate some variation then you are selecting/saving other variations. They are two sides of the same coin. Already have. All you do is deny and lie. No, you have not explained how the internal selection/guidance works. You have not explained how it is stored or encoded. You have not spelled out, clearly and coherently, how it works. You've just made assertions. There aren’t any actual academic publications that support evolution by means of blind and mindless processes unless we count genetic diseases and deformities. They all support unguided means unless you can show that things are guided. Which you cannot do. Again, that does NOT address if the mutations are accidents, errors and mistakes. That alone makes it bullshit. Not my fault that you are too stupid to understand the debate. You clearly don't even understand the verbiage. They are random, i.e. mistakes, errors, accidents, but they don't necessarily occur randomly across the genome. But they are random, i.e. unpredictable, from a fitness point of view. You're just arguing because you don't want to admit you're wrong. Not only that but there is plenty of evidence to refute the claim of random with respect to fitness. And your ignorance on that isn’t an argument, either. You do that work and submit it to a peer-reviewed journal.JVL
January 21, 2022
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JVL:
So, clearly, biologists have been using the notion of being random with respect to fitness or need for a long time.
Again, that does NOT address if the mutations are accidents, errors and mistakes. That alone makes it bullshit. Not my fault that you are too stupid to understand the debate. Not only that but there is plenty of evidence to refute the claim of random with respect to fitness. And your ignorance on that isn't an argument, either. And we are still waiting for testable hypotheses for unguided evolution....ET
January 21, 2022
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JVL:
I agree with that. No one is saying otherwise.
And yet "random with respect to fitness" doesn't address the fact that the mutations are accidents, errors and mistakes. Thank you for refuting yourself.
They have supported the claim.
LIAR. You are beyond pathetic.
There are the two parts of the same process. Some things are kept and some things are thrown away. The things that are kept generate more offspring which introduces new variation; possibly even some of the same variation that was thrown away previously.
There is a HUGE difference between selection and elimination. Your ignorance isn't an argument.
Explain, specifically, how the guidance is internal.
Already have. All you do is deny and lie.
No, there are mathematical criteria for randomness.
Pure ignorance Back to the bacterial flagellum- we still use it because you and yours still have NOTHING to account for its existence!
Everyone knows that’s not correct.
And yet no one can demonstrate otherwise!
There are ideas of how it could have evolved.
Until those ideas are tested, they are not part of science. You lose. There aren't any actual academic publications that support evolution by means of blind and mindless processes unless we count genetic diseases and deformities. And please stop lying and bluffing.ET
January 21, 2022
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Bornagain77: Dr Minnich is listed on the Discovery Institute's website as being part of their team. So I think we can pretty much predict what he's going to say. He's not exactly a neutral source is he? If you want me to consider any of his actual academic publications then please link to them.JVL
January 21, 2022
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"You know me better than that!! No JVL, I actually do hold that you are as blind as a bat. (even more blind than a bat since they have fairly amazing, Darwinian defying, 'acoustic vision'.
The bionic antinomy of Darwinism Excerpt: For example, the bats have an echometer emitting 100 kHz supersonic pulses at a frequency of 30 times per second. These waves are reflected and distorted by the surrounding objects and their echoes are intercepted and elaborated by the bat to catch its prey and also just to get around. The signal processing of these echoes is so accurate to allow bats to fly, twisting, looping and zig-zagging through the air, into a completely dark room intersected by tens pianoforte strings without grazing them. The bat’s echometer has more accuracy, more efficiency, less power consumption and less size than any artificial sonar constructed by engineers. https://uncommondescent.com/biology/the-bionic-antinomy-of-darwinism/
So again, here is Minnich's talk on Lenski's e-coli
Re-interpreting (Lenski’s) Long-Term Evolution Experiments: A Conversation with Dr. Scott Minnich – video (Lenski’s e-coli 15:00 minute mark) https://youtu.be/6rpNPzQAMck?t=954
bornagain77
January 21, 2022
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Bornagain77: JVL, so apparently you saying that you miss the forest for the trees pretty much all the time? ? You know me better than that!! I do think my reading of the situation is just as plausible as yours. (Obviously I think mine is more plausible but I'll meet you half-way.) I will say that I think it's important to see how the researchers and the scientific community as a whole regard research results. We can't just grab phrases out of abstracts or summaries and declare: SCIENCE SAYS. It doesn't work that way. One paper doesn't change a paradigm. No one wants to flit about, to and fro, with every paper that is published.JVL
January 21, 2022
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JVL, so apparently you saying that you miss the forest for the trees pretty much all the time? :)
Re-interpreting (Lenski's) Long-Term Evolution Experiments: A Conversation with Dr. Scott Minnich - video (Lenski's e-coli 15:00 minute mark) https://youtu.be/6rpNPzQAMck?t=954
bornagain77
January 21, 2022
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ET: Please note a quote in a passage posted by Bornagain77:
Ronald Fisher wrote that mutations are “random with respect to the organism’s need” (Orr). This fundamental prediction persisted for decades as a recent paper explained . . .
So, clearly, biologists have been using the notion of being random with respect to fitness or need for a long time. Despite what you said: they do not say that. I assume you will now admit you got that wrong.JVL
January 21, 2022
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Bornagain77: Oh and by the way, regarding your reference to lizard plasticity . . . you can't actually read the original blogpost that was the basis for your comment unless you're invited. Do you always quote research results just based on the abstracts or summaries?JVL
January 21, 2022
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Bornagain77: Interesting result. But you didn't point out the following aspect of the experiment:
We hypothesized that direct selection would rapidly yield the same class of E. coli Cit(+) mutants and follow the same genetic trajectory: potentiation, actualization, and refinement. This hypothesis was tested,,,
So, they showed that by using direct selection (i.e. breeding) instead of natural (unguided) selection they could get the same result in a lot less time. And they also concluded that there was generally enough variation created that you could get the same result if you repeated the experiment; that in Dr Lenski's situation that particular result was rare because of his hands-off approach. So?JVL
January 21, 2022
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Of related note, even the much ballyhooed citrate adaptation of Lenski's e-coli were shown, by Minnich and company, to be repeatable, environmentally induced, mutations.
Rapid Evolution of Citrate Utilization by Escherichia coli by Direct Selection Requires citT and dctA. - Minnich - Feb. 2016 The isolation of aerobic citrate-utilizing Escherichia coli (Cit(+)) in long-term evolution experiments (LTEE) has been termed a rare, innovative, presumptive speciation event. We hypothesized that direct selection would rapidly yield the same class of E. coli Cit(+) mutants and follow the same genetic trajectory: potentiation, actualization, and refinement. This hypothesis was tested,,, Potentiation/actualization mutations occurred within as few as 12 generations, and refinement mutations occurred within 100 generations.,,, E. coli cannot use citrate aerobically. Long-term evolution experiments (LTEE) performed by Blount et al. (Z. D. Blount, J. E. Barrick, C. J. Davidson, and R. E. Lenski, Nature 489:513-518, 2012, http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/nature11514 ) found a single aerobic, citrate-utilizing E. coli strain after 33,000 generations (15 years). This was interpreted as a speciation event. Here we show why it probably was not a speciation event. Using similar media, 46 independent citrate-utilizing mutants were isolated in as few as 12 to 100 generations. Genomic DNA sequencing revealed an amplification of the citT and dctA loci and DNA rearrangements to capture a promoter to express CitT, aerobically. These are members of the same class of mutations identified by the LTEE. We conclude that the rarity of the LTEE mutant was an artifact of the experimental conditions and not a unique evolutionary event. No new genetic information (novel gene function) evolved. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26833416
Of note, saying the citrate adaptation was an "artifact of the experimental conditions" is, for all practical purposes, the same thing as saying it was a repeatable, environmentally induced, mutation(s).bornagain77
January 21, 2022
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ET scientifically illiterate punks.
Actually they are not illiterate it's even worse they are ill-intended. Big difference.Lieutenant Commander Data
January 21, 2022
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I will simply note that JVL is wrong to the point of being "not even wrong" (Pauli).
“It is difficult (if not impossible) to find a genome change operator that is truly random in its action within the DNA of the cell where it works. All careful studies of mutagenesis find statistically significant non-random patterns” – James Shapiro – Evolution: A View From The 21st Century – (Page 82) How life changes itself: the Read-Write (RW) genome. – 2013 Excerpt: Research dating back to the 1930s has shown that genetic change is the result of cell-mediated processes, not simply accidents or damage to the DNA. This cell-active view of genome change applies to all scales of DNA sequence variation, from point mutations to large-scale genome rearrangements and whole genome duplications (WGDs). This conceptual change to active cell inscriptions controlling RW genome functions has profound implications for all areas of the life sciences. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23876611 Genome Self-Editing – directed mutations – Johnnyb – video (2021) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YesEq8VKgvg This video explores,, the mechanics and specifics of many different types of directed mutations. “Physiology Is Rocking the Foundations of Evolutionary Biology”: Another Peer-Reviewed Paper Takes Aim at Neo-Darwinism – Casey Luskin March 31, 2015 Excerpt: Noble doesn’t mince words: “It is not only the standard 20th century views of molecular genetics that are in question. Evolutionary theory itself is already in a state of flux (Jablonka & Lamb, 2005; Noble, 2006, 2011; Beurton et al. 2008; Pigliucci & Muller, 2010; Gissis & Jablonka, 2011; Shapiro, 2011). In this article, I will show that all the central assumptions of the Modern Synthesis (often also called Neo-Darwinism) have been disproved.” Noble then recounts those assumptions: (1) that “genetic change is random,” (2) that “genetic change is gradual,” (3) that “following genetic change, natural selection leads to particular gene variants (alleles) increasing in frequency within the population,” and (4) that “inheritance of acquired characteristics is impossible.” He then cites examples that refute each of those assumptions,,, He then proposes a new and radical model of biology called the “Integrative Synthesis,” where genes don’t run the show and all parts of an organism — the genome, the cell, the body plan, everything — is integrated. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/03/physiology_is_r094821.html Probability of change in life: Amino acid changes in single nucleotide substitutions – June 2020 Discussion We found in-built intrinsic biases and barriers to drastic changes within the genetic code. Within single mutational events, there are fixed probabilities for the type of change in selection pressure-free conditions that are far from random. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0303264720300393 The claim that mutations are only held to be random ‘with regard to fitness’, i.e. to the needs of the individual, is now also known to be a false claim in and of itself. (False) Prediction of Darwinism – Mutations are not adaptive – Cornelius Hunter In the twentieth century, the theory of evolution predicted that mutations are not adaptive or directed. In other words, mutations were believed to be random with respect to the needs of the individual. As Julian Huxley put it, “Mutation merely provides the raw material of evolution; it is a random affair, and takes place in all directions. … in all cases they are random in relation to evolution. Their effects are not related to the needs of the organisms.” (Huxley, 36) Or as Jacques Monod explained: “chance alone is at the source of every innovation, of all creation in the biosphere. Pure chance, absolutely free but blind, at the very root of the stupendous edifice of evolution: this central concept of modern biology is no longer one among other possible or even conceivable hypotheses. It is today the sole conceivable hypothesis, the only one that squares with observed and tested fact. And nothing warrants the supposition—or the hope—that on this score our position is likely ever to be revised.” (Monod, 112) Ronald Fisher wrote that mutations are “random with respect to the organism’s need” (Orr). This fundamental prediction persisted for decades as a recent paper explained: “mutation is assumed to create heritable variation that is random and undirected.” (Chen, Lowenfeld and Cullis) But that assumption is now known to be false. The first problem is that the mutation rate is adaptive. For instance, when a population of bacteria is subjected to harsh conditions it tends to increase its mutation rate. It is as though a signal has been sent saying, “It is time to adapt.” Also, a small fraction of the population increases its mutation rates even higher yet. These hypermutators ensure that an even greater variety of adaptive change is explored. (Foster) Experiments have also discovered that duplicated DNA segments may be subject to higher mutation rates. Since the segment is a duplicate it is less important to preserve and, like a test bed, appears to be used to experiment with new designs. (Wright) The second problem is that organisms use strategies to direct the mutations according to the threat. Adaptive mutations have been extensively studied in bacteria. Experiments typically alter the bacteria food supply or apply some other environmental stress causing mutations that target the specific environmental stress. (Burkala, et. al.; Moxon, et. al; Wright) Adaptive mutations have also been observed in yeast (Fidalgo, et. al.; David, et. al.) and flax plants. (Johnson, Moss and Cullis) One experiment found repeatable mutations in flax in response to fertilizer levels. (Chen, Schneeberger and Cullis) Another exposed the flax to four different growth conditions and found that environmental stress can induce mutations that result in “sizeable, rapid, adaptive evolutionary responses.” (Chen, Lowenfeld and Cullis) In response to this failed prediction some evolutionists now are saying that evolution somehow created the mechanisms that cause mutations to be adaptive. https://sites.google.com/site/darwinspredictions/mutations-are-not-adaptive Studies on Cichlid Fish Demonstrate the Predictive Power of Engineering Models for Adaptation Brian Miller - October 14, 2021 Excerpt: Researchers increasingly recognize that the most significant variation in cichlid fish results from internal adaptive mechanisms. As Parsons et al. stated: "…there is an emerging view that additive genetic variation accounts for a relatively small percentage of phenotypic variation and rather it’s the context in which traits develop that determines their final form" (Hendrikse et al. 2007, Jamniczky et al. 2010, Pfennig et al. 2010, Hallgrimsson et al. 2014). Conclusion: Future research will undoubtedly continue to demonstrate that cichlid variation did not primarily originate from random mutations but from systems engineered to drive targeted modifications. https://evolutionnews.org/2021/10/studies-on-cichlid-fish-demonstrate-the-predictive-power-of-engineering-models-for-adaptation/ Engineers Crash the Evolution Party, Rethink Biological Variation January 11, 2022 physicist and engineer Brian Miller sits down with host Casey Luskin to survey exciting developments in intelligent design research that are driven by an engineering model for understanding and studying variations in species. ID researchers are pushing this work, but so too are systems biology researchers outside the intelligent design community. https://evolutionnews.org/2022/01/engineers-crash-the-evolution-party-rethink-biological-variation/ also see phenotypic plasticity, particularly Lizard Plasticity – March 2013 Excerpt: So in this study, plasticity experiments were conducted. When the lizards were taken off a plant diet and returned to their native insect diet, the cecal valves in their stomachs began to revert within weeks. As the authors conclude, this pointed heavily to plasticity as a cause. We can infer that the this gut morphology likewise arose in similar fashion when coming into contact with the plant diet. https://uncommondescent.com/stasis/ancient-lizards-amaze-scientists-but-why/#comment-573791
bornagain77
January 21, 2022
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ET: Wrong. They are random in that they are not planned! They are accidents, errors and mistakes. I agree with that. No one is saying otherwise. There are mutations that occur that are not random with respect to fitness. Shapiro wrote a book about it. Spetner wrote 2 books about it. Such as? Again, random with respect to fitness means if you just look at which mutations are beneficial to fitness there's no way to predict when they occur. If you only look at where in a genome mutations occur then, because some loci have higher rates of mutations, they don't look quite so random. It's all really clear. Science DEMANDS the people making the claim, support it. You and yours cannot. You lose. They have supported the claim. You haven't pointed to any mistakes made in any research. You also cannot say specifically how the 'claim' could be supported to your satisfaction. Again, for the learning impaired: natural selection is a process of ELIMINATION. And there is a huge difference between a process of selection and a process of elimination. There are the two parts of the same process. Some things are kept and some things are thrown away. The things that are kept generate more offspring which introduces new variation; possibly even some of the same variation that was thrown away previously. External guidance is a strawman invented by rubes, like you. Explain, specifically, how the guidance is internal. Not just 'there must be some extra programming in the cell which no one has yet found.' You've made that claim many, many times and you haven't, ever, been able to support it. So no one believes it. Only our ignorance says that mutations are random. No, there are mathematical criteria for randomness. As has been explained to you already. You just refuse to believe it. Saying blind and mindless processes did it is untestable. Not at all. If mutations are random (with respect to fitness) then there is no guidance. Back to the bacterial flagellum- we still use it because you and yours still have NOTHING to account for its existence! Everyone knows that's not correct. There are ideas of how it could have evolved. You and yours are just a bunch of bluffing, scientifically illiterate punks. You should start a journal then and publish your scientific endeavours. Why hasn't that happened?JVL
January 21, 2022
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JVL:
As elucidated in the quote you gave from the textbook mutations (mistakes) are not completely random over the whole genome; certain regions have higher mutations rates so the mutation distribution is not flat.
I know that. I have known that for decades.
HOWEVER, when mutations occur they are not predictably beneficial to the life form. So we say they are random with respect to fitness.
Wrong. They are random in that they are not planned! They are accidents, errors and mistakes. There are mutations that occur that are not random with respect to fitness. Shapiro wrote a book about it. Spetner wrote 2 books about it.
The fact that mutations are random with respect to fitness has been demonstrated.
Wrong!
You want someone to show that unguided evolution is up to the job.
Science DEMANDS the people making the claim, support it. You and yours cannot. You lose.
The mutations are unguided as has been demonstrated and established.
Wrong, again.
Before humans were around to use random variations in breeding programs the only selection processes available were natural ones plus some genetic drift and things like sexual selection by the lifeforms themselves.
Again, for the learning impaired: natural selection is a process of ELIMINATION. And there is a huge difference between a process of selection and a process of elimination.
There is no evidence of any external guidance for any of these things.
External guidance is a strawman invented by rubes, like you. AGAIN, there isn't any evidence that nature produced life. There isn't even a way to test the claim. Only our ignorance says that mutations are random. Transposable elements contain, within their sequence, the coding for two of the enzymes required for them to move around. No one on this planet has any idea how blind and mindless processes produced that. Saying blind and mindless processes did it is untestable. Christopher Hitchens has said that we can dismiss such claims. Hitchens applies to just about all of unguided evolution! Back to the bacterial flagellum- we still use it because you and yours still have NOTHING to account for its existence! You and yours have NOTHING to account for our existence! You and yours are just a bunch of bluffing, scientifically illiterate punks.ET
January 21, 2022
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JVL:
You call me out for my tone but have nothing to say when ET addresses me:
It's all true, though! Perhaps YOU are the problem.ET
January 21, 2022
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JVL The fact that mutations are random with respect to fitness has been demonstrated. And, if they were not, then you should be able to set up an experiment showing that a given condition always leads to a particular mutation but that cannot be demonstrated.
:) The experiments you asked for are everywhere but being explained by evolutionists they are "the evidence" for evolution by "spinning the truth" method . Figure that. Guppies , anoles ,etc. experiments prove again and again that the same environmental conditions will produce the same result and will trigger the same responses in different places. Will trigger not a random response but the right response for survival in a very short period of time (months, years not million of years ). What is that? It's a preseted system in guppies ,anoles ,etc. that always "choose the right response" based on environment stimuli . Nothing random. Nothing by chance. That's why there is still life on this planet because there is nothing random . The chameleon "choose" right camouflage (not after 100.000 years of "evolution")or die, guppies change spot size, colour , body size, reproduction time,etc or all just disappear in few generation ,etc. When the fox is guarding the hen house ,guess what , hen is always guilty .:)) Just watch and admire how the truth is cooked by an non biased God hater in front of your eyes: Richard Dawkins - Evidence For Evolution - Guppy Experiment - Natural Selection ObservedLieutenant Commander Data
January 21, 2022
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