Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Why we must make sure the Darwinists lose

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Here, in “Justification by Faith”, Darwinist atheist Michael Ruse comments on Christopher (new atheist) Hitchens’s esophageal cancer diagnosis ( bad news):

Third, with Hitchens I simply don’t see that deathbed conversions, especially those done in fear or pain, are worth a thing. They have about as much validity as a confession forced out through waterboarding. I have often wondered, when I am on a plane, if it were announced that it was hijacked and we were on the way to the White House or whatever, what then would I do? Would I tell Jesus that I am sorry? I confess that I might. But if Jesus thinks that that is worth anything, then he loses my respect entirely.

This is merely disgusting. Death concentrates the mind on what is real. Look at other examples of the human race: Todd Beamer, the guy who was a devout Christian, took charge of a plane captured by terrorists, possibly aimed at the Capitol or the White House. He said the Lord’s Prayer with an emergency services worker before shouting Let’s roll! to other men on the plane, creating a disturbance that probably resulted in the plane’s crash in Shanksville, Pennsylvania, losing all on board. But those people were doomed anyway, and he prevented vastly worse disorders.

Michael Ruse wouldn’t respect Jesus if he told him he was sorry for his sins, and Jesus accepted that fact? Well then, I don’t respect Michael Ruse. And you can decide whether you are better off living in Todd Beamer’s version of American society or Michael Ruse’s. One must choose.

Too many people, in my experience, do not understand what is at stake.

Comments
Bruce David, one glaring problem with your 'don't worry, be happy, everyone goes to heaven religion' is that the foreign NDE studies I listed clearly indicate that cultures not influenced by Christianity are going to hell!!! You have provided no rigorous study to counter that fact!!! Do you deny the validity of the studies just because they are distasteful to you? That is not science!!! It seems to me you have chosen a 'comfortable' belief system for yourself because you cannot broker, in your mind, the thought that God would allow people to go to hell, and I admit that it is a very horrendous punishment for even people like Hitler in all his evil. Yet regardless of what my preferences are in this matter as far as the evidence now sits, you are in no position to sit there and tell me your preferences of how you think God ought to run this world. Now if you present rigorous studies, to counterbalance the ones I've presented for negative NDE's for foreign cultures, then I will be more than willing to give you a fair shake for I also certainly find it difficult to balance an infinitely loving God with hell. Yet despite my druthers of how I would like things to be in reality I am forced, in my search for truth, to give greater creed to that which has the most integrity. A few more videos I've collected: Hindu Woman asks Jesus to Make Himself Real – HE DID!!! - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKp8w1qR5XM Monk and Jesus Miracle Story http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOLEW3heQwA here is the transcript: The Buddhist Monk and Jesus Excerpt: Monk “And then the man turned and he walked away, going toward the door. And when he got to the door, he turned back around, and he said, Jesus: ‘My name is Jesus. Monk: “Now, I had never heard that name before, so I didn’t know who Jesus was. He didn’t tell me anything else about himself, only his name. And then I think I must have fallen asleep again. But later on in the night, I felt warmth in my leg. By morning, I had feeling. And when the doctors came to prep me for surgery, my leg was healed.” http://www.asiastories.com/?p=7bornagain77
August 18, 2010
August
08
Aug
18
18
2010
12:11 PM
12
12
11
PM
PDT
bornagain77, You asked, "...why in the world did Jesus die on the cross if it was not to save us from sin, death, and hell?" That's easy. He died to show us that death is not the end, that life continues after the death of the body. He also, in my view, was showing us what we are all capable of ("These works and greater shall ye do.") The truth is there is neither sin, death, nor Hell. You also said, "I simply can’t see in the evidence where you would feel confident enough in your conclusion to gamble your soul by rejecting Christ." This hearkens to what bugs me most about Christianity. It always comes down to some version of the admonition to accept Christ for fear of going to Hell. You say you believe in a compassionate, loving God, yet you also believe that God will punish anyone with an eternity in Hell who does not accept Christ. You believe in a God who rules us through fear. Can you not see the contradiction in those beliefs? Fear of Hell didn't come from God, and it didn't come from Jesus. It came from church clergy who needed to be able to control their flocks, and you have bought the party line. I don't have a soul, I AM a soul, and am eternal. God's love is infinite and unconditional. What could I possibly have to fear from that?Bruce David
August 18, 2010
August
08
Aug
18
18
2010
10:57 AM
10
10
57
AM
PDT
Avocationist you ask, "What is the pressing concern made clear by the studies?" To reiterate this Buddhist study I listed before: Near-Death Experiences in Thailand – Todd Murphy: Excerpt:The Light seems to be absent in Thai NDEs. So is the profound positive affect found in so many Western NDEs. The most common affect in our collection is negative. Unlike the negative affect in so many Western NDEs (cf. Greyson & Bush, 1992), that found in Thai NDEs (in all but case #11) has two recognizable causes. The first is fear of ‘going’. The second is horror and fear of hell. It is worth noting that although half of our collection include seeing hell (cases 2,6,7,9,10) and being forced to witness horrific tortures, not one includes the NDEer having been subjected to these torments themselves. And this one for Tibetan Buddhist: A Comparative view of Tibetan and Western Near-Death Experiences by Lawrence Epstein University of Washington: Excerpt: Episode 5: The OBE systematically stresses the ‘das-log’s discomfiture, pain, disappointment, anger and disillusionment with others and with the moral worth of the world at large. The acquisition of a yid-lus and the ability to travel instantaneously are also found here. Episode 6: The ‘das-log, usually accompanied by a supernatural guide, tours bar-do, where he witnesses painful scenes and meets others known to him. They give him messages to take back. Episode 7: The ‘das-log witnesses trials in and tours hell. The crimes and punishments of others are explained to him. Tortured souls also ask him to take back messages to the living. avocationist, That you would ask 'What is the pressing concern made clear by the studies?' makes absolutely no sense?,,, Do you somehow feel that the NDE's are not really happening to these people? Well I beg to differ,,, Near Death Experiences - Scientific Evidence - Dr Jeff Long M.D. http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4454627 The Day I Died - Part 4 of 6 - The Extremely 'Monitored' Near Death Experience of Pam Reynolds - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4045560 Blind Woman Can See During Near Death Experience (NDE) - Pim von Lommel - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3994599/ Kenneth Ring and Sharon Cooper (1997) conducted a study of 31 blind people, many of who reported vision during their Near Death Experiences (NDEs). 21 of these people had had an NDE while the remaining 10 had had an out-of-body experience (OBE), but no NDE. It was found that in the NDE sample, about half had been blind from birth. (of note: This 'anomaly' is also found for deaf people who can hear sound during their Near Death Experiences(NDEs).) http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2320/is_1_64/ai_65076875/ I don't understand your 'racial' division either, in which you say only white people go to paradise,,, Do somehow think that only white people are Christian? well this sobering NDE from Africa, in the last half of this video, begs to differ The Lazarus Phenomenon http://www.premiertv.twofourdigital.net//Premiertv.aspx?AssetId=5475c14d-997a-48a3-a9ae-5c75ad6bf5dc The way I see it avocationist is that you are trying to hold that these 'places' that these NDErs go to are not 'real', but I hold that they are real. You then state: "I’m not sure why you think nonbelievers in this country would have positive NDEs when they are often told they are going to hell. They should be afraid." I'm glad they don't go to hell in their NDE's, but are they really non-believers as perhaps Howard Storm was? Former Atheist Howard Storm’s Hellish NDE – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lF7AzxplsME Hell – A Warning! – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4131476 ,, That the positive NDE sample you would try to use is from within a Judeo-Christian culture does not bode well when the NDE samples you are trying to ignore are from cultures with no Judeo-Christian influence. I simply can't see in the evidence where you would feel confident enough in your conclusion to gamble your soul by rejecting Christ,,, You are not even challenging the fact that Judeo-Christian cultures are having, BY FAR, the most pleasant NDE's!!!! Basically as far as this 'all paths lead to God' non-sense, why in the world did Jesus die on the cross if it was not to save us from sin, death, and hell? The Center Of The Universe Is Life! – General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics and The Shroud Of Turin – video http://www.metacafe.com/w/5070355 This scripture seems fitting for that "conversations with God' book: Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you. "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many. Or as they say in AA, "I going to dance with the one that brung me!!"bornagain77
August 18, 2010
August
08
Aug
18
18
2010
04:45 AM
4
04
45
AM
PDT
Avocationist you ask, "What is the pressing concern made clear by the studies?" To reiterate this Buddhist study I listed before: Near-Death Experiences in Thailand – Todd Murphy: Excerpt:The Light seems to be absent in Thai NDEs. So is the profound positive affect found in so many Western NDEs. The most common affect in our collection is negative. Unlike the negative affect in so many Western NDEs (cf. Greyson & Bush, 1992), that found in Thai NDEs (in all but case #11) has two recognizable causes. The first is fear of ‘going’. The second is horror and fear of hell. It is worth noting that although half of our collection include seeing hell (cases 2,6,7,9,10) and being forced to witness horrific tortures, not one includes the NDEer having been subjected to these torments themselves. http://www.shaktitechnology.com/thaindes.htm And this one for Tibetan Buddhist: A Comparative view of Tibetan and Western Near-Death Experiences by Lawrence Epstein University of Washington: Excerpt: Episode 5: The OBE systematically stresses the ‘das-log’s discomfiture, pain, disappointment, anger and disillusionment with others and with the moral worth of the world at large. The acquisition of a yid-lus and the ability to travel instantaneously are also found here. Episode 6: The ‘das-log, usually accompanied by a supernatural guide, tours bar-do, where he witnesses painful scenes and meets others known to him. They give him messages to take back. Episode 7: The ‘das-log witnesses trials in and tours hell. The crimes and punishments of others are explained to him. Tortured souls also ask him to take back messages to the living. http://www.case.edu/affil/tibet/booksAndPapers/neardeath.html?nw_view=1282132756& avocationist, That you would ask 'What is the pressing concern made clear by the studies?' makes absolutely no sense?,,, Do you somehow feel that the NDE's are not really happening to these people? Well I beg to differ,,, Near Death Experiences - Scientific Evidence - Dr Jeff Long M.D. http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4454627 The Day I Died - Part 4 of 6 - The Extremely 'Monitored' Near Death Experience of Pam Reynolds - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4045560 Blind Woman Can See During Near Death Experience (NDE) - Pim von Lommel - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3994599/ Kenneth Ring and Sharon Cooper (1997) conducted a study of 31 blind people, many of who reported vision during their Near Death Experiences (NDEs). 21 of these people had had an NDE while the remaining 10 had had an out-of-body experience (OBE), but no NDE. It was found that in the NDE sample, about half had been blind from birth. (of note: This 'anomaly' is also found for deaf people who can hear sound during their Near Death Experiences(NDEs).) http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2320/is_1_64/ai_65076875/ I don't understand your 'racial' division either, in which you say only white people go to paradise,,, Do somehow think that only white people are Christian? well this sobering NDE from Africa, in the last half of this video, begs to differ The Lazarus Phenomenon http://www.premiertv.twofourdigital.net//Premiertv.aspx?AssetId=5475c14d-997a-48a3-a9ae-5c75ad6bf5dc The way I see it avocationist is that you are trying to hold that these 'places' that these NDErs go to are not 'real', but I hold that they are real. You then state: "I’m not sure why you think nonbelievers in this country would have positive NDEs when they are often told they are going to hell. They should be afraid." I'm glad they don't go to hell in their NDE's, but are they really non-believers as perhaps Howard Storm was? Former Atheist Howard Storm’s Hellish NDE – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lF7AzxplsME Hell – A Warning! – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4131476 ,, That the positive NDE sample you would try to use is from within a Judeo-Christian culture does not bode well when the NDE samples you are trying to ignore are from cultures with no Judeo-Christian influence. I simply can't see in the evidence where you would feel confident enough in your conclusion to gamble your soul by rejecting Christ,,, You are not even challenging the fact that Judeo-Christian cultures are having, BY FAR, the most pleasant NDE's!!!! Basically as far as this 'all paths lead to God' non-sense, why in the world did Jesus die on the cross if it was not to save us from sin, death, and hell? The Center Of The Universe Is Life! – General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics and The Shroud Of Turin – video http://www.metacafe.com/w/5070355 This scripture seems fitting for that "conversations with God' book: Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you. "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many. Or as they say in AA, "I going to dance with the one that brung me!!"bornagain77
August 18, 2010
August
08
Aug
18
18
2010
04:44 AM
4
04
44
AM
PDT
Born Again, What is the pressing concern made clear by the studies? It seems that in heaven there will be a few orientals and blacks, and mostly white people, if the end of world history is indeed at hand. That there are more foreign children having positive experiences indicates that they have less negative ideas ingrained in them. Those other cultures do not believe in the Christian hell, but they do believe in some hells to work off bad karma. I'm not sure why you think nonbelievers in this country would have positive NDEs when they are often told they are going to hell. They should be afraid.avocationist
August 17, 2010
August
08
Aug
17
17
2010
10:59 PM
10
10
59
PM
PDT
Yet more evidence of our rapidly-devolving culture is witnessed by the fact that The Chronicle of Higher Education decided to publish this drivel in the first place. What relation Ruse's essay has to higher education is a mystery to me. Of course, Ruse has good liberal bonafides, so I suppose the CHE would feel justified in publishing anything submitted by him.riddick
August 17, 2010
August
08
Aug
17
17
2010
07:39 PM
7
07
39
PM
PDT
Bruce David, I'm not sure if you've seen this video yet, but I had to reload it tonight, so here is the new link that works: The Center Of The Universe Is Life! - General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics and The Shroud Of Turin - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/5070355 This following article video is slightly off topic but it is a heart tugger: Armless Pianist Liu Wei Defies Odds On 'China's Got Talent' http://new.music.yahoo.com/blogs/realityrocks/385927/armless-pianist-liu-wei-defies-odds-on-chinas-got-talent/bornagain77
August 17, 2010
August
08
Aug
17
17
2010
06:25 PM
6
06
25
PM
PDT
Bruce David, The NDE studies I listed were of foreign cultures completely removed from any Judeo-Christian influence. Thus you have not even addressed the pressing concern that is made clear by the foreign studies I presented. If you dig through the foreign culture NDE's on the NDE website, as I have, you will find that there are some children of foreign cultures that have positive near death experiences, whereas this 'positive' aspect drops off severely for adults. Of the precious few adults that do have positive Near Death Experiences in foreign cultures you will find that in the great majority of these cases they were heavily influenced by the Judeo-Christian culture in their upbringing. That people in this Judeo-Christian country have positive NDE's and that they do not now knowingly profess to have accepted Christ is not really that surprising for me in that I am sure that they believe deeply in spiritual things,, much like you do right now,,, and I believe that deeply held Christian influences, that were ingrained in them as they were a children, at say Christmas and Easter, or say that Christian Grandparent who taught them how to pray, are what 'saves' them from the 'negative' NDE's that are a preponderance in foreign cultures. I am with you in that God is gentle, loving, and compassionate, calling each of us back to Him through the halls of eternity, Yet I cannot deny what is self evident from the studies nor from Jesus's own words: A few videos I've collected on NDE's Near Death Experience Miracle Healing - Atheist Out Of Body - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4094105 The Near Death Experiences Of Children - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4109139 Near Death Experiences - Children - Guardian Angels - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsTeSnFk6TA The Day I Died - Part 1 of 6 - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Es9u6oi3El8 Former Atheist Howard Storm's Hellish NDE - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lF7AzxplsME Hell - A Warning! - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4131476bornagain77
August 17, 2010
August
08
Aug
17
17
2010
04:53 PM
4
04
53
PM
PDT
To avocationist: Thanks. I have copies of both of Michael Newton's books (Journey of Souls and Destiny of Souls), and have read each more than once. One interesting point that is made in them relating to ID is that some of his clients practice creating living things between lives. I get the distinct impression that the creators of life on Earth were souls just like ourselves (only far more advanced). To bornagain77: I am not trivializing Jesus. Rather, I am exalting the rest of us. We are all made in His (God's) image and likeness and are One with Him, but we have forgotten (and this forgetting is all part of the Plan, by the way). Jesus came to remind us by his example. Jesus was one of the most advanced beings ever to incarnate on earth, granted, but in essence we and he are the same. Many spiritual masters have walked the Earth, some of them approaching his level of mastery, some of them less so. Sri Yukteswar, Yogananda's teacher, for instance, returned to Yogananda in his physical body after he died. I assume that your lengthy discussion of NDEs is supposed to prove that only Christians go to Heaven. I have a couple of responses: 1. How do you account for the positive NDEs experienced by many people in the West who have not accepted Jesus as their savior? (I know one such myself personally.) Surely if your view is correct they should have seen images of the Hell that awaits them if they don't repent. 2. There are other possible explanations for the phenomena. Seth (of Seth Speaks by Jane Roberts) and others tell us that what we experience immediately after death is a function of our beliefs about it. This state, however, doesn't last. Gradually or rapidly, depending on the strength of those beliefs, the newly arrived soul is brought out of his or her illusion into the truth. With all due respect, bornagain, the God you believe in is a self-contradiction, an oxymoron. How could an infinitely loving, compassionate, and omnipotent God have created a system whereby a child, for example, who is born into an Arab family in Saudi Arabia and taught from birth that the Koran is THE source of truth and who believes it because we are programmed (by God, presumably) to believe what we are taught as children be consigned to Hell for all eternity? This is NOT the action of a loving God. The vision presented in Conversations with God, however, IS self consistent: There is no One True Path to God. All paths lead to Him, eventually. The credo of any religion should be, "Ours is not the only way, ours is merely another way." All of us, every one of us, goes to Heaven when we die. We do get the chance to review, in detail, our most recent life and learn all the lessons included therein, but this is done with love and compassion. God is not angry and punitive. God is gentle, loving, and compassionate, calling each of us back to Him through the halls of eternity, a call which is impossible to ignore forever. We are all going Home, each and every one of us.Bruce David
August 17, 2010
August
08
Aug
17
17
2010
10:08 AM
10
10
08
AM
PDT
Bruce I would like to stress one more fact since you alluded to this fact in your post,
Yogananda also performed miracles, for example, and after his death, his body, although unembalmed, remained in an undecayed state for several weeks until it was interred.
Bruce cheating entropy for a while is one thing, defeating death entirely is quite another fact altogether. A fact that should gain immediate interest of anyone who is facing death. Which is everyone of us! A fact that sets Christ completely apart and that I always found to argue very strongly for Christianity. As I heard said by many preachers before, You can go to the graves of all the other founders of all the other major religions of the world and find the remains of a body, yet, as the Shroud stubbornly testifies despite many attempts to refute the shroud's authenticity, if you go to the tomb of Jesus you will not find the remains of a body for He has risen. Matthew 28:5-6 The angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay. Burial places of founders of world religions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burial_places_of_founders_of_world_religionsbornagain77
August 16, 2010
August
08
Aug
16
16
2010
07:02 AM
7
07
02
AM
PDT
Bruce David as far as trying to 'equalize' Jesus to 'Buddha and others' who "came to show us by his example who and what we are" To quote CS Lewis: In his famous book Mere Christianity, Lewis makes this statement, "A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on the level with a man who says he is a poached egg - or he would be the devil of hell. You must take your choice. Either this was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us." http://www.greatcom.org/resources/whoisjesusorig/lordliarlunatic.html And to quote Jesus's own words: Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. http://bible.cc/john/14-6.htm And seeing as a very strong case can be made 'scientifically' for this 'spiritual truth',,,,: General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics and The Shroud Of Turin – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3993426 ,,,,, I would say that I hold a extreme amount of skepticism for any counter argument that tries to trivialize Jesus, who I hold to have been God incarnate with a capital G, with any other 'good moral teacher' who came to show us the way.bornagain77
August 16, 2010
August
08
Aug
16
16
2010
04:42 AM
4
04
42
AM
PDT
Bruce David and avocationist, First, as far as what I can gather for rigorous studies on Buddhist and Hindu NDE's, the results are not comforting for those who would want to hold to the "God saves everybody despite their beliefs" philosophy. To reiterate this Buddhist study I listed before: Near-Death Experiences in Thailand - Todd Murphy: Excerpt:The Light seems to be absent in Thai NDEs. So is the profound positive affect found in so many Western NDEs. The most common affect in our collection is negative. Unlike the negative affect in so many Western NDEs (cf. Greyson & Bush, 1992), that found in Thai NDEs (in all but case #11) has two recognizable causes. The first is fear of 'going'. The second is horror and fear of hell. It is worth noting that although half of our collection include seeing hell (cases 2,6,7,9,10) and being forced to witness horrific tortures, not one includes the NDEer having been subjected to these torments themselves. http://www.shaktitechnology.com/thaindes.htm This one for Tibetan Buddhist: A Comparative view of Tibetan and Western Near-Death Experiences by Lawrence Epstein University of Washington: Excerpt: Episode 5: The OBE systematically stresses the 'das-log's discomfiture, pain, disappointment, anger and disillusionment with others and with the moral worth of the world at large. The acquisition of a yid-lus and the ability to travel instantaneously are also found here. Episode 6: The 'das-log, usually accompanied by a supernatural guide, tours bar-do, where he witnesses painful scenes and meets others known to him. They give him messages to take back. Episode 7: The 'das-log witnesses trials in and tours hell. The crimes and punishments of others are explained to him. Tortured souls also ask him to take back messages to the living. http://www.case.edu/affil/tibet/booksAndPapers/neardeath.html?nw_view=1281960224& Here is a Hindu study: India Cross-cultural study by Dr. Ian Stevenson of the University of Virginia Medical School and Dr. Satwant Pasricha of the Institute of Mental Health and Neurosciences in Bangalore, India Excerpt: "Suddenly I saw two big pots of boiling water, although there was no fire, no firewood, and no fireplace. Then, the man pushed me with his hand and said, "You'd better hurry up and go back." When he touched me, I suddenly became aware of how hot his hand was. Then I realised why the pots were boiling. The heat was coming from his hands! When I regained consciousness, I had a severe burning sensation in my left arm." Mangal still had a mark on his left arm that he claims was a result of the burning. About a quarter of Dr Pasricha's interviewees reported such marks. http://www.rediff.com/news/1999/apr/06pas.htm In fact the Buddhist and Hindu religions were the most horrifying types of Near Death experiences that I could find for non-Judeo Christian cultures. Yet the other foreign cultures did not fair to well either; The Japanese find death a depressing experience - From an item by Peter Hadfield in the New Scientist (Nov. 30th 1991) Excerpt: A study in Japan shows that even in death the Japanese have an original way of looking at things. Instead of seeing 'tunnels of light' or having 'out of body' experiences, near-dead patients in Japanese hospitals tend to see rather less romantic images, according to researchers at Kyorin University. According to a report in the Mainichi newspaper, a group of doctors from Kyorin has spent the past year documenting the near-death experiences of 17 patients. They had all been resuscitated from comas caused by heart attacks, strokes, asthma or drug poisoning. All had shown minimal signs of life during the coma. Yoshia Hata, who led the team, said that eight of the 17 recalled 'dreams', many featuring rivers or ponds. Five of those patients had dreams which involved fear, pain and suffering. One 50-year-old asthmatic man said he had seen himself wade into a reservoir and do a handstand in the shallows. 'Then I walked out of the water and took some deep breaths. In the dream, I was repeating this over and over.' Another patient, a 73-year-old woman with cardiac arrest, saw a cloud filled with dead people. 'It was a dark, gloomy day. I was chanting sutras. I believed they could be saved if they chanted sutras, so that is what I was telling them to do.' Most of the group said they had never heard of Near-Death Experiences before. http://www.pureinsight.org/node/4 Near-Death and Out-of-Body Experiences in a Melanesian Society by Dorothy E. Counts: Excerpt: "When you were in your village you claimed to be an important man. But in this little place you have been eaten up by a knife, a dog, and a pig. And now fire will utterly destroy you." When the loudspeaker had finished, a fire blazed up and destroyed the remains. http://anthropology.uwaterloo.ca/WNB/NearDeath.html In fact despite the wide spread belief that NDE's are basically the same across different cultures this simply is not true: Several studies (Pasricha, 1986, Schorer, 1985-86) & Kellehear, 1993) Murphy 1999,2001) have indicated that the phenomenologies of NDEs is culture-bound. (Of Note: Judeo-Christian Culture NDEs are by far the most pleasant "phenomena") http://www.shaktitechnology.com/thaindestxt.htm etc... etc..bornagain77
August 16, 2010
August
08
Aug
16
16
2010
04:16 AM
4
04
16
AM
PDT
Thank you Bruce. By the way, Michael Newton was a hypnotherapist who was an atheist and then through his work accidentally took a patient into a past life, and in the end he developed a technique of not only taking people into memories of past lives, but into the spirit world between lives. He has hypnotized thousands of people of various spiritual persuasions, and he does not tell them what to expect but gets very consistent results as to what goes on. And what they all remember is reincarnation. You can google him. It's the best way I think, to remove from Christianity the horror, and uplift it to a thing of beauty. For it is indeed obvious that most people are not spiritually ready to go to heaven, and there is little point in having a God who magically makes a reserved few ready and deserts the others? Or, as I say, everyone goes to heaven, but few get to stay there. I do indeed believe, that if a person is able to really live Christ's teachings and achieve unconditional love for his fellow man, that he no longer will need to come back here. That is the hurdle. Born Again: we might have fun with this, but right now I am not at home till Tuesday so I can't make a long post. The people in the Jesus' time seem to have believed in reincarnation when they asked Jesus if John the Baptist was Elijah. And when they asked if the man born blind had sinned or his parents.avocationist
August 16, 2010
August
08
Aug
16
16
2010
02:01 AM
2
02
01
AM
PDT
bornagain77: Forgive me if I don't include your posts in my response :). There is much too much to respond to in detail, so I will keep my remarks general. 1. As for the Bible being "alive" in the way you describe, I know that there are Muslims who would say the same about the Koran, and I am certain that there are also Hindus and Buddhists who would echo those sentiments with regard to their own sacred texts. 2. My question was not about the historical accuracy of the Bible, it was about its spiritual accuracy vis a vis the other holy books that exist in our world. Buddhism and Hinduism both tell us that we incarnate many times in the course of our spiritual development. How do you know that the Bible is right and they are wrong about that? 3. I don't doubt that Jesus existed, and that he performed miracles, or even that he rose from the dead in his physical body. But Paramahansa Yogananda also performed miracles, for example, and after his death, his body, although unembalmed, remained in an undecayed state for several weeks until it was interred. This points to what I believe is the true message of Jesus: that he came to show us by his example who and what we are (as did the Buddha and many others). We are each of us One with the Father, and all made in His image and likeness. When we come to know this, which customarily takes many hundreds of incarnations, each of us will realize the powers we already possess, which are God's (given to us by Him) "Have I not said, ye are gods?" Now THAT fills ME with awe! We are NOT sinners who need Jesus to get us back into God's good graces. We are His sons and daughters, made in His image out of Himself, each one of us treasured and loved unconditionally by Him. There is nothing we can do to lose that love, which is a beacon, ever calling us Home. And eventually every one of us will heed that call and find our way back to Him, which will mean simply remembering what was there within us all along.Bruce David
August 15, 2010
August
08
Aug
15
15
2010
10:55 PM
10
10
55
PM
PDT
Love ya BA. ...Now stop it. :)Upright BiPed
August 15, 2010
August
08
Aug
15
15
2010
12:14 PM
12
12
14
PM
PDT
cont. Bruce David, Rogers passed away shortly after publishing this paper, but his work was ultimately verified by the Los Alamos National Laboratory: Carbon Dating Of The Turin Shroud Completely Overturned by Scientific Peer Review Rogers also asked John Brown, a materials forensic expert from Georgia Tech to confirm his finding using different methods. Brown did so. He also concluded that the shroud had been mended with newer material. Since then, a team of nine scientists at Los Alamos has also confirmed Rogers work, also with different methods and procedures. Much of this new information has been recently published in Chemistry Today. This following is the Los Alamos National Laboratory report and video which completely confirms the Rogers' paper: “Analytical Results on Thread Samples Taken from the Raes Sampling Area (Corner) of the Shroud Cloth” (Aug 2008) Excerpt: The age-dating process failed to recognize one of the first rules of analytical chemistry that any sample taken for characterization of an area or population must necessarily be representative of the whole. The part must be representative of the whole. Our analyses of the three thread samples taken from the Raes and C-14 sampling corner showed that this was not the case....... LANL’s work confirms the research published in Thermochimica Acta (Jan. 2005) by the late Raymond Rogers, a chemist who had studied actual C-14 samples and concluded the sample was not part of the original cloth possibly due to the area having been repaired. - Robert Villarreal http://www.ohioshroudconference.com/ Shroud Of Turin Carbon Dating Overturned By Scientific Peer Review - Robert Villarreal - Press Release video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4041193 Now that the flawed carbon dating is finally brought into line, all major lines of evidence now converge and establish the Shroud as authentic. This rigidly tested, and scrutinized, artifact establishes the uniqueness of the Shroud among all ancient artifacts of man found on earth. I know of no other ancient artifact, from any other culture, which has withstood such intense scrutiny and still remained standing in its claim of divine origin. It is apparent God thought this event so important for us to remember that He took a “photograph” of the resurrection of Jesus Christ using the Shroud itself as a medium. After years of painstaking research, searching through every materialistic possibility, scientists still cannot tell us exactly how the image of the man on the Shroud was imprinted. How Did The Image Form On The Shroud? - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4045581 "The shroud image is made from tiny fibres that are (each) 1/10th of a human hair. The picture elements are actually randomly distributed like the dots in your newspaper, photograph or magazine photograph. To do this you would need an incredibly accurate atomic laser. This technology does NOT exist (even to this day)." - Kevin Moran - Optical Engineer "the closest science can come to explaining how the image of the Man in the Shroud got there is by comparing the situation to a controlled burst of high-intensity radiation similar to the Hiroshima bomb explosion which "printed" images of incinerated people on building walls." Frank Tribbe - Leading Scholar And Author On Shroud Research This following video, which I've listed previously, and article give fairly deep insight into what the image formation on the Shroud signifies for us: General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics and The Shroud Of Turin - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3993426 A Quantum Hologram of Christ’s Resurrection? http://www.khouse.org/articles/2008/847 This following recent video revealed a very surprising holographic image that was found on the Shroud: Turin Shroud Hologram Reveals The Words 'The Lamb' - short video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4041205 Even with the advantage of all our advanced space-age technology at their fingertips, all scientists can guess is that it was some type of electro-magnetic radiation (light) which is not natural to this world. Kevin Moran, a scientist working on the mysterious '3D' nature of the Shroud image, states the 'supernatural' explanation this way: "It is not a continuum or spherical-front radiation that made the image, as visible or UV light. It is not the X-ray radiation that obeys the one over R squared law that we are so accustomed to in medicine. It is more unique. It is suggested that the image was formed when a high-energy particle struck the fiber and released radiation within the fiber at a speed greater that the local speed of light. Since the fiber acts as a light pipe, this energy moved out through the fiber until it encountered an optical discontinuity, then it slowed to the local speed of light and dispersed. The fact that the pixels don’t fluoresce suggests that the conversion to their now brittle dehydrated state occurred instantly and completely so no partial products remain to be activated by the ultraviolet light. This suggests a quantum event where a finite amount of energy transferred abruptly. The fact that there are images front and back suggests the radiating particles were released along the gravity vector. The radiation pressure may also help explain why the blood was "lifted cleanly" from the body as it transformed to a resurrected state." If scientists want to find the source for the supernatural light which made the "3D - photographic negative" image I suggest they look to the thousands of documented Near-Death Experiences (NDE's) in Judeo-Christian cultures. It is in their testimonies that you will find mention of an indescribably bright 'Light' or 'Being of Light' who is always described as being of a much brighter intensity of light than the people had ever seen before. All people who have been in the presence of 'The Being of Light' while having a deep NDE have no doubt whatsoever that the 'The Being of Light' they were in the presence of is none other than 'The Lord God Almighty' of heaven and earth. In The Presence Of Almighty God - The NDE of Mickey Robinson - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4045544 The Day I Died - Part 4 of 6 - The NDE of Pam Reynolds - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4045560 It should be noted: All foreign, non-Judeo-Christian culture, NDE studies I have looked at have a extreme rarity of encounters with 'The Being Of Light' and tend to be very unpleasant NDE's save for the few pleasant children's NDEs of those cultures that I've seen (It seems there is indeed an 'age of accountability'). The following study was shocking for what was found in some non-Judeo-Christian NDE's: Near-Death Experiences in Thailand - Todd Murphy: Excerpt:The Light seems to be absent in Thai NDEs. So is the profound positive affect found in so many Western NDEs. The most common affect in our collection is negative. Unlike the negative affect in so many Western NDEs (cf. Greyson & Bush, 1992), that found in Thai NDEs (in all but case #11) has two recognizable causes. The first is fear of 'going'. The second is horror and fear of hell. It is worth noting that although half of our collection include seeing hell (cases 2,6,7,9,10) and being forced to witness horrific tortures, not one includes the NDEer having been subjected to these torments themselves. Another very interesting point about the Shroud is, since the Shroud had to be extremely close to the body when the image was made, and also considering the lack of any distinctive shadow patterns on the image, it is apparent the only place this supernatural light could have possibly come from, that made the image on the Shroud, was directly from the body itself ! Yes, you read that last sentence right: THE SOURCE OF LIGHT WAS THE BODY ITSELF !!! God's crowning achievement for this universe was not when He created this universe. God’s crowning achievement for this universe was when He Himself inhabited the human body He had purposely created the whole universe for, to sanctify human beings unto Himself through the death and resurrection of his “Son” Jesus Christ. This is truly something which should fill anyone who reads this with awe. The wonder of it all is something I can scarcely begin to understand much less write about. Thus, I will finish this portion of my paper with a scripture. Hebrews 2:14-15 "Since we, God's children, are human beings - made of flesh and blood - He became flesh and blood too by being born in human form; for only as a human being could He die and in dying break the power of the devil who had the power of death. Only in that way could He deliver those who through fear of death have been living all their lives as slaves to constant dread."bornagain77
August 15, 2010
August
08
Aug
15
15
2010
12:07 PM
12
12
07
PM
PDT
cont. Bruce David, Precisely fulfilled prophecies, and powerful miracles, are compelling hard facts in and of themselves; yet there is one more piece of solid physical evidence which bears powerful witness to the Bible’s validity and also sheds an undeniable light on God's deep personal commitment to man; The Shroud of Turin. The Shroud of Turin is one of the most scientifically scrutinized artifacts in recorded history. Through a rigid process of elimination, through all materialistic possibilities, it becomes crystal clear; the way in which the photographic negative, and uniquely three dimensional, image of the man on the Shroud of Turin had to be imprinted was 'supernatural' in its process. The Turin Shroud - Comparing Image And Photographic Negative - interactive webpage http://www.shroud.com/shrdface.htm Shroud Of Turin's Unique 3 Dimensionality - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4041182 All attempts to reproduce the Shroud fail: Experts Question Scientist’s Claim of Reproducing Shroud of Turin - Oct 6, 2009 http://www.ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=98037# Many solid lines of evidence pointed to the Shroud’s authenticity back in the 1980’s, yet the carbon dating of 1989 indicated a medieval age. In spite of many other, more reliable, lines of evidence establishing the Shroud as authentic, many people unquestionably accepted the carbon dating as valid and presumed the Shroud to be a medieval fake. THE SHROUD AS AN ANCIENT TEXTILE - Evidence of Authenticity http://www.newgeology.us/presentation24.html Shroud Of Turin - Sewn From Two Pieces - 2000 Years Old - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4109101 The Sudarium of Oviedo http://www.shroudstory.com/sudarium.htm In a fairly recent breakthrough, the carbon dating question has been thoroughly addressed and refuted by Joseph G. Marino and M. Sue Benford in 2000. Their research, with textile experts, showing the carbon testing was done with a piece of the Shroud which was subject to expert medieval reweaving in the 1500’s had much historical, and photographic, evidence behind it. Their historical, and photographic, evidence was then scientifically confirmed by chemical analysis in 2005 by Raymond Rogers. Thus, the fact that a false age was shown by the 1989 carbon testing has been accepted across the board scientifically. New Evidence Overturns Shroud Of Turin Carbon Dating - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4222339 The following is the main peer reviewed paper which has refuted the 1989 Carbon Dating: Why The Carbon 14 Samples Are Invalid, Raymond Rogers per: Thermochimica Acta (Volume 425 pages 189-194, Los Alamos National Laboratory, University of California) Excerpt: Preliminary estimates of the kinetics constants for the loss of vanillin from lignin indicate a much older age for the cloth than the radiocarbon analyses. The radiocarbon sampling area is uniquely coated with a yellow–brown plant gum containing dye lakes. Pyrolysis-mass-spectrometry results from the sample area coupled with microscopic and microchemical observations prove that the radiocarbon sample was not part of the original cloth of the Shroud of Turin. The radiocarbon date was thus not valid for determining the true age of the shroud. The fact that vanillin can not be detected in the lignin on shroud fibers, Dead Sea scrolls linen, and other very old linens indicates that the shroud is quite old. A determination of the kinetics of vanillin loss suggests that the shroud is between 1300- and 3000-years old. Even allowing for errors in the measurements and assumptions about storage conditions, the cloth is unlikely to be as young as 840 years. http://www.ntskeptics.org/issues/shroud/shroudold.htmbornagain77
August 15, 2010
August
08
Aug
15
15
2010
12:03 PM
12
12
03
PM
PDT
cont. Bruce David, Even though this historical evidence for the Bible is certainly very strong, I feel the Bible finds a greater level of verification for its claim for supernatural (divinely inspired) authorship from the hundreds of precisely fulfilled, and unambiguous, prophecies in it that can be verified by numerous outside sources. (of personal note: I consider Nostradamus to be a fairly ambiguous, after the fact, prophet). Unique among all books ever written, the Bible accurately foretells specific events-in detail-many years, sometimes centuries, before they occur. Approximately 2500 prophecies appear in the pages of the Bible, about 2000 of which already have been fulfilled to the letter—no errors. (The remaining 500 or so reach into the future and may be seen unfolding as days go by.) Here are a few resources showing the clarity and authenticity of Bible prophecy: The Bible: The Word of God? Extraordinary Claims Demand Extraordinary Evidence - video http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5539836792491778083 Probability Of Just Eight Prophecies Being Fulfilled - Jesus - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4041170 The King Jesus (A Precise Mathematical Prediction) http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/m.sion/kjesenpr.htm The Precisely Fulfilled Prophecy Of Israel Becoming A Nation In 1948 - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4041241 The Signs of Israel's Rebirth: Lesson 1: The Parable of the Fig Tree Concluding Statement: Now it should also be perfectly clear what the parable of the fig tree in the Olivet Discourse means (Matt 24:32-34). As the disciples were walking into the city on Tuesday morning after Palm Sunday, they noticed that the tree which Jesus had cursed the day before had withered and dried up. Later, on Tuesday evening, when the memory of the withered fig tree was still fresh in their minds, Jesus spoke the parable in question. He said that when the church sees the fig tree leafing out again, it will know that "it is . . . at the doors." The Greek for "it is" can also be translated "he is." In prophecy, "door" is often a symbol for the passageway between heaven and earth (Rev. 4:1). What the parable means, therefore, is that when the nation of Israel revives after its coming disintegration and death in A.D. 70, the return of Christ will be imminent. http://www.themoorings.org/prophecy/Israel/Israel1.html Even Sir Isaac Newton, who is considered one of the greatest, if not the greatest, scientists who has ever lived, was a avid student of Bible prophecy: Sir Isaac Newton's Prediction For The Return Of Christ - Sid Roth video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4041154 This following video gives 'astronomical' weight to the preceding prediction by Sir Isaac Newton and is indeed very sobering: Mark Biltz Talks About The Return Of Christ On Sid Roth - Solar & Lunar Eclipses - 2014 - 2015 - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4056071 As well, contrary to popular belief of many people in today's church, powerful miracles are not something that only happened in the early Christian church, there are still powerful miracles happening today, such as the blind seeing, the dead being raised, and the deaf hearing: Real Life Miracles - Blind See; Dead Raised; Deaf Hear - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4596829 Heidi Baker - Real Life Miracles From God - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4596832bornagain77
August 15, 2010
August
08
Aug
15
15
2010
12:01 PM
12
12
01
PM
PDT
cont. Bruce David, Here is a site that, though written from a Young Earth perspective, gives a fairly good overview of the many strange anomalies in the fossil record that point to an ancient global flood: The Fossil Record http://detectingdesign.com/fossilrecord.html Yet to be fair here is a paper outlining some fairly reasonable objections to a global flood (of note: Dr. Ross has endured a fair amount of 'mudslinging' from other Christians for holding to the 'local flood' theory): Noah's Flood: A Bird's-Eye View - Hugh Ross http://www.reasons.org/astronomy/noahs-flood/noahs-flood-article-1 This following video, and article, are very interesting for they talk about the scientific evidence for a 'genetic Adam' and a 'genetic Eve', and how the evidence relates to Noah's flood: Does human genetic evidence support Noah's flood? - Fazale Rana - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4116168 Book Review; Who Was Adam?: A Creation Model Approach to the Origin of Man: Excerpt: The Bible claims that there was a genetic bottleneck at the Genesis flood. Whereas all females can trace their ancestry back to Eve (through the three wives of Noah's sons), all males trace their Y-chromosomes through Noah (through his three sons). This predicted discrepancy for molecular dates of mitochondrial DNA and Y-chromosome data is actually seen in the scientific literature. http://www.godandscience.org/newsletters/2005-09.html The following video is downright eye-opening with its evidence: The Physical Ashen Remains Of Sodom and Gomorrah - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwTVFk1HK3Y These following videos show, that as far as the historical evidence is concerned, Jesus assuredly rose from the dead. The Historicity Of The Resurrection Of Jesus - William Lane Craig - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYdzUYyIKMM Defense Of The Historical Jesus From Supposed Higher Criticism Of Biblical Text And Historical Reliability - William Lane Craig http://www.vimeo.com/11144955bornagain77
August 15, 2010
August
08
Aug
15
15
2010
12:00 PM
12
12
00
PM
PDT
cont, Bruce David: This following video has some very persuasive evidence for the Arc Of The Covenant (A very interesting talk on Noah's Ark is on a adjoining video at the site): Arch Bonnema Speaks about Noah's Ark and the Arc of the Covenant http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2973853741381710825# As well, there is actually very strong archaeological evidence tracing all human races to the three sons of Noah: Tracing Your Ancestors Through History - Noah's Descendants - video http://edinburghcreationgroup.org/ancestors.xml TABLE OF NATIONS (GENEALOGY OF MANKIND) by Tim Osterholm Excerpt: The fact is, that wherever its statements can be sufficiently tested, Genesis 10 of the Bible has been found completely accurate; resulting partly from linguistic studies, partly from archaeology, and, more recently still, from the findings of physical anthropologists, who are, to this day, recovering important clues to lines of migration in ancient historic times. As implied in verse 32 of Genesis 10, this Table includes everybody; meaning that so-called fossil man, primitive peoples (ancient and modern) and modern man are all derived from Noah's three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth. http://www.soundchristian.com/man/ The following videos outline some surprisingly strong geological evidence for a global flood that will make any honest person scratch their head in wonder: Startling Evidence That Noah's Flood Really Happened - video http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7075979791519871387 The following video is very interesting for it shows a geological formation that is now known to have been formed by a catastrophic flood, yet Charles Darwin himself had 'predicted' the geological formation was formed 'gradually': Where Darwin Went Wrong - geology video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3darzVqzV2o This following secular article 'honestly' admits that 'some big canyons' were formed by catastrophic floods: Secular Geology Admits to Rapid Canyon Formation by Megafloods - June 21 2010 Excerpt: “Our traditional view of deep river canyons, such as the Grand Canyon, is that they are carved slowly, as the regular flow and occasionally moderate rushing of rivers erodes rock over periods of millions of years.” Quoting Michael Lamb of Caltech, co-author of a paper in Nature Geoscience, the article said that such is not always the case: “We know that some big canyons have been cut by large catastrophic flood events during Earth’s history.” http://www.creationsafaris.com/crev201006.htm#20100621a The following article investigates eight anomalies of the Grand Canyon that strongly suggest rapid formation by a catastrophic flood of global proportions: Eight factual descriptions of the Grand Canyon http://www.canyonministries.com/content/view/31/54/ This following article points to a global anomaly in sediment layers. A anomaly that would be expected from a global flood perspective: Ancient Earth Smackdown at Santa Fe Tells Global Story - August 2010 Excerpt: “Geologist John Wesley Powell called this major gap in the geologic record, which is also seen in other parts of the world, the Great Unconformity.” Clicking on the link elaborates further: “The Great Unconformity is a geologic feature that exists across the world at a relatively consistent rock strata (or depth relative to sea-level).” Any unconformity worldwide in its extent would seem to require to a global catastrophe. http://www.creationsafaris.com/crev201008.htm#20100810abornagain77
August 15, 2010
August
08
Aug
15
15
2010
11:59 AM
11
11
59
AM
PDT
Bruce David, though I am far from a thorough apologist for the Bible, here are a few notes I've collected: First and foremost as to establishing God's deep personal involvement with man, there are millions of people in the world, including myself, who have personally experienced Jesus Christ in their lives when they have called on Him in times of need in their lives. Here is one such story in this following video: Experiencing Jesus Christ – Francis Chan – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4928919 Besides the personal witness of Christ's reality from millions of people who have experienced the presence of His spirit, many people, including myself, argue that the Bible itself is proof of God’s supernatural and personal involvement with man because it is 'alive', and I mean that in a way that specifically differentiates the Holy Bible from inanimate objects. This is because the words of the Holy Bible have in fact 'come alive' and spoken directly into my life in times of need in my life: Strange But True - Miracle Testimony https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYmaSrBPNEmGZGM4ejY3d3pfNTNocmRjZGtkdg&hl=en Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. The Word Is Alive - Casting Crowns - music video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3ucyoy7sbk Interestingly, the Bible also has a 'hidden watermark' of a 'heptadic structure of sevens' which authenticates it as inspired by God: The Holy Bible - God's Watermark Of Authenticity - Ivan Panin - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4136566 As well there is a very mysterious 'Bible Code' in the Bible that, though not 'conclusive', has some very interesting results: Scientific Reliability of the Bible - Bible Code Mystery Discussed At 26th Minute of Video - Don Johnson http://www.vimeo.com/11746912 Historically, the Bible has indeed proven extremely resilient in its historical accuracy with stunning archaeological confirmation: Archeology: Digging for the Truth of the Bible - Dr. Don Patton - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWawVUZg3Es Dead Sea Scrolls - Dr. Don Patton - video http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6386210757621315062 This following site has a bunch of different, and interesting, archaeological finds supporting the Bible: Real Discoveries http://www.realdiscoveries.com/bornagain77
August 15, 2010
August
08
Aug
15
15
2010
11:57 AM
11
11
57
AM
PDT
tgpeeler: You wrote, "Bruce, I can think of at least one reason why this may not be so (many earthly lifetimes). Hebrews 9:27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment," My question to you (and to all Christians) is, how do you know that the Bible is correct? What is it that makes the Bible a more reliable source of spiritual truth than, say, the Buddhist scriptures or the Hindu holy texts, or indeed, the Conversations with God series of books which constitute my own source of spiritual sustenance?Bruce David
August 15, 2010
August
08
Aug
15
15
2010
11:18 AM
11
11
18
AM
PDT
Do the Darwinists who must be made to lose include Christians, like Ken Miller?Heinrich
August 15, 2010
August
08
Aug
15
15
2010
05:50 AM
5
05
50
AM
PDT
Mr Ruse's problem, of course, is that he has not truly seen the Jesus Christ of whom he so glibly speaks for who He truly is - the Christ, the Son of the Living God. Once that reality strikes home - once we understand our true predicament in the light of that reality, and once we understand that because of that revelation, creation and humanity have a future, then such foolishness is like mist dying in sunlight.howard
August 15, 2010
August
08
Aug
15
15
2010
02:03 AM
2
02
03
AM
PDT
Actually, we are all on the airplane destined for death. Some of of us are in the front and some in the back. But we are all on the plane. It takes seeing the ground for some to realize it.pilotfo64
August 15, 2010
August
08
Aug
15
15
2010
02:01 AM
2
02
01
AM
PDT
Bruce, I can think of at least one reason why this may not be so (many earthly lifetimes). Hebrews 9:27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,tgpeeler
August 14, 2010
August
08
Aug
14
14
2010
10:06 PM
10
10
06
PM
PDT
Here's the problem: you can't see what you can't see, and one's world view will blind one to what falls outside its possibilities. An atheist simply cannot see that impending death might in fact tear away some of the veils that hide the truth, because they already "know" the truth, and it doesn't include that possibility. I don't necessarily agree that "it's a gray, dreary, empty world that the atheists inhabit." My brother is an atheist, but his life is full of love, excitement, and service even so. But I do believe that atheists miss the most joyful and sublime experiences of which we humans are capable. I also believe, however that each of us will have as many earthly lifetimes as we require to fully extract what is possible from this material existence.Bruce David
August 14, 2010
August
08
Aug
14
14
2010
08:41 PM
8
08
41
PM
PDT
“Death concentrates the mind on what is real.” Sure, moments of intense fear are when we are at our most rational… such as when people in foxholes cry for mommy, because, you know, she’ll actually show up when we do that. One would think that this would go without saying, but Ruse wasn’t referring to people who face death in the manner that Todd Beamer did. Beamer was able to face death bravely and do the rational thing. Ruse humbly admitted that, instead of a Todd Beamer, he might possibly behave more akin to the guy crying for mommy.goodusername
August 14, 2010
August
08
Aug
14
14
2010
07:09 PM
7
07
09
PM
PDT
"Too many people, in my experience, do not understand what is at stake." Too many people refuse to understand what is at stake.Ilion
August 14, 2010
August
08
Aug
14
14
2010
05:36 PM
5
05
36
PM
PDT
This video has a reenactment of Howard Storm's Near Death Experience: Hell - A Warning! http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4131476bornagain77
August 14, 2010
August
08
Aug
14
14
2010
02:17 PM
2
02
17
PM
PDT
1 2 3

Leave a Reply