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ID theory … in one handy article

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Evolution News and Views

Further to “Atheist philosopher Thomas Nagel’s anti-Darwin book ‘can’t be ignoredby the thinking public’”, here is Discovery Institute’s Casey Luskin’s summary:

Intelligent design is a scientific theory that argues that the best explanation for some natural phenomena is an intelligence cause, especially when we find certain types of information and complexity in nature which in our experience are caused by intelligence.

… topics …

1. ID uses a positive argument based upon finding high levels of complex and specified information.

2. ID is NOT a theory about the designer or the supernatural

3. ID is NOT a theory of everything

He then goes on to say what it is:

1. ID uses a positive argument based upon finding high levels of complex and specified information

The theory of intelligent design begins with observations of how intelligent agents act when they design things. Human intelligence provides a large empirical dataset for studying the products of the action of intelligent agents. This present-day observation-based dataset establishes cause-and-effect relationships between intelligent action and certain types of information.

William Dembski observes that “[t]he principle characteristic of intelligent agency is directed contingency, or what we call choice.”15 Dembski calls ID “a theory of information” where “information becomes a reliable indicator of design as well as a proper object for scientific investigation.”16 A cause-and-effect relationship can be established between mind and information. As information theorist Henry Quastler observed, the “creation of new information is habitually associated with conscious activity.”17

The most commonly cited type of “information” that reliably indicates design is “specified complexity.” As Dembski writes, “the defining feature of intelligent causes is their ability to create novel information and, in particular, specified complexity.”18 Though the terms were not originally coined by an ID proponent, Dembski suggests that design can be detected when one finds a rare or highly unlikely event (making it complex) which conforms to an independently derived pattern (making it specified). ID proponents call this complex and specified information, or “CSI.” Stephen Meyer explains that in our experience, only intelligent agents produce this type of information:
More.

Note: It’s depressing that so much “opposition” to the notion of design in the universe/life forms comes from Jesus-hollering academics who say things like “Well, that would make God responsible for bad design!”

I (O’Leary for News) wrote about that in “Here’s one bad reason for rejecting ID,” pointing out that when speaking to Moses, God takes responsibility for things that don’t work. (Ex. 4:11) These facts cannot be used as an argument against divine authorship or involvement by anyone claiming to operate within the Judaeo-Christian tradition.

So far as I am concerned, any Christian academic using such arguments should rightly be suspected of not actually knowing, caring about, or even taking seriously what the Bible says. Of course, many theistic evolutionists/Christian Darwinists probably do not know, care about, or even take seriously what the Bible says about anything if it conflicts with current fashion. But they are only allowed to openly say that about topics like Adam and Eve, about whom they make silly jokes. If they start saying that they don’t think Moses ever really talked with God or reported what he said accurately, why then … why then they might be asked just what their issues really are, and those issues won’t turn out to be “information theory” or “specified complexity.” Hence all the evasion and fancy dancing.

But don’t expect serious questions to be asked any time soon. Too many people are complicit now.

At any rate, the issues thinking atheists who don’t work for lobbies raise are far more honest.

Comments
It seems to me that there is a dishonesty and an agenda on the part of those who oppose ID to continuously fail to make a distinction between intelligent causation (whether agnostic theism or panspermia)and the theistic implications of intelligent causation (of which theistic implications are ALSO distinct from the religious implications - of such agnostic theism). Scientific evidence that points to something being authored by intelligence is not the same thing as theistic implication (however such an inference COULD be made in later steps in a cumulative case...just as religious implications could be made after the cumulative case for agnostic theism is made). ID threatens atheism because they know what comes next in the cumulative case....perhaps we should show them the cumulative steps to the God of Abraham and really rustle some feathers. Question everything.Breckmin
August 18, 2013
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BTW, Kairosfocus, I hope that all is well, or at least improving, with your son. This must be a very difficult time for you as a parent.R0bb
August 17, 2013
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R0bb, not being a math geek, I tend to follow what the empirical evidence can tell me about a hypothesis. For instance, from what I can gather, I believe you are holding that random configurations of material particles can generate functional information fairly easily, despite not having any empirical evidence of even one instance of your belief:
The Capabilities of Chaos and Complexity: David L. Abel - Null Hypothesis For Information Generation - 2009 To focus the scientific community’s attention on its own tendencies toward overzealous metaphysical imagination bordering on “wish-fulfillment,” we propose the following readily falsifiable null hypothesis, and invite rigorous experimental attempts to falsify it: "Physicodynamics cannot spontaneously traverse The Cybernetic Cut: physicodynamics alone cannot organize itself into formally functional systems requiring algorithmic optimization, computational halting, and circuit integration." A single exception of non trivial, unaided spontaneous optimization of formal function by truly natural process would falsify this null hypothesis. http://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/10/1/247/pdf Can We Falsify Any Of The Following Null Hypothesis (For Information Generation) 1) Mathematical Logic 2) Algorithmic Optimization 3) Cybernetic Programming 4) Computational Halting 5) Integrated Circuits 6) Organization (e.g. homeostatic optimization far from equilibrium) 7) Material Symbol Systems (e.g. genetics) 8) Any Goal Oriented bona fide system 9) Language 10) Formal function of any kind 11) Utilitarian work http://mdpi.com/1422-0067/10/1/247/ag
But RObb, even though this is certainly not good news for the person who would want to toe the neo-Darwinian line of reductive materialism, (i.e. random configurations of material particles generating functional information), the problem, from an empirical evidence point of view, gets much worse from the reductive materialist. You see RObb, it is now found that Quantum Entaglement/Information resides in molecular biology on a massive scale, in every DNA and protein molecule! For instance:
Coherent Intrachain energy migration at room temperature - Elisabetta Collini and Gregory Scholes - University of Toronto - Science, 323, (2009), pp. 369-73 Excerpt: The authors conducted an experiment to observe quantum coherence dynamics in relation to energy transfer. The experiment, conducted at room temperature, examined chain conformations, such as those found in the proteins of living cells. Neighbouring molecules along the backbone of a protein chain were seen to have coherent energy transfer. Where this happens quantum decoherence (the underlying tendency to loss of coherence due to interaction with the environment) is able to be resisted, and the evolution of the system remains entangled as a single quantum state. http://www.scimednet.org/quantum-coherence-living-cells-and-protein/
Where this creates an insurmountable problem for the reductive materialism of neo-Darwinism is that quantum entanglement falsifies the reductive materialism, upon which neo-Darwinism is based, as to being true:
Quantum Entanglement – The Failure Of Local Realism - Materialism - Alain Aspect - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/4744145 Quantum theory survives latest challenge - Dec 15, 2010 Excerpt: Even assuming that entangled photons could respond to one another instantly, the correlations between polarization states still violated Leggett’s inequality. The conclusion being that instantaneous communication is not enough to explain entanglement and realism must also be abandoned. This conclusion is now backed up by Sonja Franke-Arnold and collegues at the University of Glasgow and University of Strathclyde who have performed another experiment showing that entangled photons,, show stronger correlations than allowed for particles with individually defined properties – even if they would be allowed to communicate constantly. - per physics world Looking Beyond Space and Time to Cope With Quantum Theory – (Oct. 28, 2012) Excerpt: To derive their inequality, which sets up a measurement of entanglement between four particles, the researchers considered what behaviours are possible for four particles that are connected by influences that stay hidden and that travel at some arbitrary finite speed. Mathematically (and mind-bogglingly), these constraints define an 80-dimensional object. The testable hidden influence inequality is the boundary of the shadow this 80-dimensional shape casts in 44 dimensions. The researchers showed that quantum predictions can lie outside this boundary, which means they are going against one of the assumptions. Outside the boundary, either the influences can’t stay hidden, or they must have infinite speed.,,, The remaining option is to accept that (quantum) influences must be infinitely fast,,, “Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them,” says Nicolas Gisin, Professor at the University of Geneva, Switzerland,,, - per science daily
Now RObb let's walk through this. Quantum entanglement, which conclusively demonstrates that ‘information’ in its pure 'quantum form' is completely transcendent of any time and space constraints, is now found in molecular biology on a massive scale. Yet how can the quantum entanglement 'effect' in biology possibly be explained by a material (matter/energy) 'cause' when the quantum entanglement 'effect' falsified material particles as its own 'causation' in the first place? (A. Aspect; Zeilinger),, Appealing to the probability of various configurations of material particles, as Darwinists do, simply will not help since a timeless/spaceless cause must be supplied which is beyond the capacity of the material particles themselves to supply! To give a coherent explanation for an effect that is shown to be completely independent of any space-time constraints one is forced to appeal to a cause that is itself not limited to time and space! i.e. Put more simply, you cannot explain a effect by a cause that has been falsified by the very same effect you are seeking to explain! Improbability arguments of various 'special' configurations of material particles, which have been a staple of the arguments against neo-Darwinism, simply do not apply since the cause is not within the material particles in the first place to supply! ,,, supplemental notes: ,,,Encoded ‘classical’ information such as what Dembski and Marks demonstrated the conservation of, and such as what we find encoded in computer programs, and yes, as we find encoded in DNA, is found to be a subset of ‘transcendent’ (beyond space and time) quantum entanglement/information by the following method:,,,
,,,This following research provides solid falsification for the late Rolf Landauer’s decades old contention that 'information is physical' (merely ‘emergent’ from a material basis) since he believed it always required energy to erase it; Quantum knowledge cools computers: New understanding of entropy – June 2011 Excerpt: No heat, even a cooling effect; In the case of perfect classical knowledge of a computer memory (zero entropy), deletion of the data requires in theory no energy at all. The researchers prove that “more than complete knowledge” from quantum entanglement with the memory (negative entropy) leads to deletion of the data being accompanied by removal of heat from the computer and its release as usable energy. This is the physical meaning of negative entropy. Renner emphasizes, however, “This doesn’t mean that we can develop a perpetual motion machine.” The data can only be deleted once, so there is no possibility to continue to generate energy. The process also destroys the entanglement, and it would take an input of energy to reset the system to its starting state. The equations are consistent with what’s known as the second law of thermodynamics: the idea that the entropy of the universe can never decrease. Vedral says “We’re working on the edge of the second law. If you go any further, you will break it.” http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110601134300.htm
Moreover quantum information is now held to be 'conserved':
Quantum no-hiding theorem experimentally confirmed for first time - March 2011 Excerpt: In the classical world, information can be copied and deleted at will. In the quantum world, however, the conservation of quantum information means that information cannot be created nor destroyed. http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-03-quantum-no-hiding-theorem-experimentally.html Quantum no-deleting theorem Excerpt: A stronger version of the no-cloning theorem and the no-deleting theorem provide permanence to quantum information. To create a copy one must import the information from some part of the universe and to delete a state one needs to export it to another part of the universe where it will continue to exist. - per wikipedia
Also of interest:
The Unbearable Wholeness of Beings - Steve Talbott Excerpt: Virtually the same collection of molecules exists in the canine cells during the moments immediately before and after death. But after the fateful transition no one will any longer think of genes as being regulated, nor will anyone refer to normal or proper chromosome functioning. No molecules will be said to guide other molecules to specific targets, and no molecules will be carrying signals, which is just as well because there will be no structures recognizing signals. Code, information, and communication, in their biological sense, will have disappeared from the scientist’s vocabulary. ,,,Rather than becoming progressively disordered in their mutual relations (as indeed happens after death, when the whole dissolves into separate fragments), the processes hold together in a larger unity. http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/the-unbearable-wholeness-of-beings
It is also very interesting to note, in Darwinism's inability to explain the finding of transcendent, 'non-local', quantum information within molecular biology, information that is not reducible to a material basis in any way, shape or form, that Theism has always postulated a transcendent, eternal, component to man that is not part of this temporal realm. i.e. Theism has always postulated a 'living soul' for man. Verse and Music:
Genesis 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Johnny Cash - Ain't No Grave http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0MIFHLIzZY
bornagain77
August 17, 2013
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kairosfocus:
What you are trying to do is to eliminate he SPECIFICITY constraint in the discussion and substitute raw complexity
Where in the world did you get that idea?
The ash bands carry out no function dependent on specific configuration, and are complex but not specified in the relevant sense. By now you know or should long since know this. So, why are you insisting on setting up and knocking over a strawman?
It was Ewert, not I, who based the specificational resources on compressibility rather than function. If you consider this to be strawmanning, then you should take it up with him. I'm sure he'll respond to your accusation with the penitence it deserves.R0bb
August 17, 2013
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Hence all the evasion and fancy dancing
As I have said the most interesting thing is the behavior of the anti-ID people. Never a direct answer to a question and a constant avoidance of the obvious. Always a diversion to the irrelevant. Constant harping on the meaningless. Pseudo sophistication in the use of technical terms. For the new trolls there is always the ad hominem before they inevitably disappear. The dance goes on and there are many variations of the dance.jerry
August 17, 2013
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F/N: Onlookers, it is rabbit trails like this which in material part lead me to focus on functionally specific complex organisation and associated information. If there is not an identifiable function depending on fairly specific configuration, we do not have isolated islands of function and a needle in an astronomical haystack search challenge to deal with. The IMAGE, to be faithful to the original and amenable to display mechanisms, has rather exacting constraints. The ash banding has no such functional requisites. It is complex but not functionally specific and organised. The information in the relevant sense lies in the image, not the pattern dependent on the chaotic dynamics of volcanoes and weather. Such could be considerably different and make no practical difference to the occurrence of ash banding. Or here on this volcanic island, layering and deposition of rocks in layers due to ashfall, rain, ash flows [pyroclastic flows) and mud flows (lahars if you will). KFkairosfocus
August 17, 2013
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Robb: The image of the ash bands from the glacier [as I duly identified almost immediately], as an image amenable to digital media is designed, but I hardly think that is what you meant to say. What you are trying to do is to eliminate he SPECIFICITY constraint in the discussion and substitute raw complexity. There is no significant constraint on the ash bands that forced them to be this way rather than that, on any independently grounds, just that we have complexity the result of the happenstance of ash falls [a chaotic process] and snow fall. The ash bands carry out no function dependent on specific configuration, and are complex but not specified in the relevant sense. By now you know or should long since know this. So, why are you insisting on setting up and knocking over a strawman? KFkairosfocus
August 17, 2013
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Winston, thanks for your reply.
So I’m not doing proper hypothesis generation there.
Can you point us to any examples of proper hypothesis generation?
For the first three hypotheses, we could quite easily believe that such a process existed. We have precedents with a uniform distribution, or a biased distribution, or a transitional distribution. The precedent provides some minimal evidence for those hypotheses.
But your second and third hypotheses are not merely a biased sampling process and a Markov process. They are, respectively, a biased sampling process with distribution D and a Markov process with transition matrix M. There are no precedents for processes with those distributions, so the only evidence for them is the event itself.
The same cannot said for the deterministic hypothesis. We don’t have precedent for processes which deterministically produce complicated images like that.
There are precedents for deterministic processes, just like there are precedents for biased sampling and Markov processes. Whether there are precedents for deterministic processes that produce complicated images "like that" depends on what you mean by "like that". Again, does the event itself count as evidence for the hypothesized process? If so, then why does it not count as evidence for hypothesis 4? The point I'm trying to make is the ad hoc nature of applications of Dembski's method. For example, the image could have had a bit depth of 24, or a higher resolution, or you could have chosen a better compression algorithm than PNG, and the numbers would have come out differently, perhaps with all three hypotheses meeting the CSI threshold. Similar points have been made about Dembski's Caputo example, where he seems to draw arbitrary lines in order to come up the parameters of his calculation. As far as doing due diligence in investigating the natural processes in operation, how do we balance that with Dembski's assertion that "unknown chance hypotheses (and the unknown material mechanisms that supposedly induce them) have no epistemic force in showing that we are wrong"? Is your first hypothesis a "known" hypothesis? If so, why can't we infer design from that hypothesis alone? What does it even mean for a hypothesis to be "known"? Aren't hypotheses explanations that we invent, which may or may not have precedent? Thanks again for joining the conversation, Winston.R0bb
August 17, 2013
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I invite them to post any evidence that Dembski’s method yields the same result when applied independently by different people.
And I invite anyone to post a demonstration of how Dembski's method can be applied to any biological system, entity or process.Alan Fox
August 17, 2013
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Did Winston Ewert notice Dr. Liddle's response to his article?Alan Fox
August 17, 2013
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It's a pity Dr. Liddle is absent at the moment. I am sure she would relish the opportunity to get Winston Ewert's name spelled correctly.Alan Fox
August 17, 2013
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Robb, See the comment I make later in that article:
An arbitrary image makes this difficult, as we cannot determine what natural processes are operating to generate the chance hypothesis. The best that we can do is postulate processes similar to those which have been observed. That's what the first three hypotheses tested here did.
You are correct, we've got no evidence for any of the hypotheses in my article. That point of the article is that we can't generate the relevant chance hypotheses without doing due diligence in investigating the natural processes in operation. So I'm not doing proper hypothesis generation there. For the first three hypotheses, we could quite easily believe that such a process existed. We have precedents with a uniform distribution, or a biased distribution, or a transitional distribution. The precedent provides some minimal evidence for those hypotheses. The same cannot said for the deterministic hypothesis. We don't have precedent for processes which deterministically produce complicated images like that.Winston Ewert
August 17, 2013
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Although it's somewhat OT, there's a reason that I'm asking how to determine which chance hypotheses are relevant. As Dembski teaches, and Winston Ewert has emphasized in his recent articles at evolutionnews.org, we have to clear the field of all relevant chance hypotheses in order to infer design. But rarely does any IDist even attempt to do this when using Dembski's design detection method. Almost always, a hypothesis of equiprobability is assumed, usually tacitly, with no attempt to justify the rejection of all other chance hypotheses. Ewert tries to do it the right way in his response to Elizabeth Liddle's challenge. That is, he actually considers more than one null hypothesis: - Hypothesis 1: The pattern was produced by random sampling according to a uniform probability distribution. - Hypothesis 2: The pattern was produced by random sampling according to a probability distribution, which we'll call D, that matches that actual distribution of the various pixel colors in the given image. - Hypothesis 3: The pattern was produced by a Markov process with a transition matrix, which we'll call M, that matches the actual distribution of transitions in the given image. - Hypothesis 4: The pattern was produced by a deterministic process that was guaranteed to yield the given pattern. Ewert performs CSI calculations for the first three hypotheses, but dismisses the fourth because we have no evidence that such a process may have been operating. But what evidence do we have for hypotheses 2 and 3? The only evidence of processes that are characterized by distribution D or transition matrix M is the event itself. But if the event counts as evidence for hypotheses 2 and 3, then it counts as evidence for hypothesis 4 also. Ewert is thus inconsistent in his determination of which hypotheses are relevant. So where can we go to find examples of making this determination the right way? This is one of several modeling choices in Dembski's method that seem to be quite ad hoc, allowing us to reach the conclusion that we want to reach. If there are IDists who dispute this criticism, I invite them to post any evidence that Dembski's method yields the same result when applied independently by different people.R0bb
August 17, 2013
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Joe:
R0bb:
If you’d like to see an example of nature producing CSI, you can read Winston Ewert’s article here. Under a uniformly distributed null, he calculates over a million bits of CSI for the given natural pattern.
Is that really what you think the article says?
Of course that's what the article says, unless I'm hallucinating this part:
A first hypothesis to consider for this image is that it was generated by choosing uniformly over the set of all possible gray-scale images of the same size. The image is 795 by 658 pixels with 256 possible levels of gray. This gives us 2 to the 4,191,240 possible images. Expressed in terms of Shannon information that is 4,191,240 bits. Using the formula for specified complexity given in the essay "Specification," we obtain a result of approximately 1,068,017 bits.
Which gives the lie to the oft-repeated claim that "in our experience, only intelligent agents produce" CSI. Everything has CSI under some null hypotheses and lacks CSI under other null hypotheses. Joe:
And isn’t it up to the anti-IDists to tell us what their relevant hypotheses are?
So when Dembski says "relevant chance hypotheses", do you interpret that to mean "hypotheses that anti-IDists consider relevant"? If so, I'm curious how you arrived at that interpretation. If, say, detectives want to use Dembski's method to determine whether a fire was intentionally lit, do they have to contact anti-IDists in order to determine the relevant chance hypotheses?R0bb
August 16, 2013
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R0bb:
If you’d like to see an example of nature producing CSI, you can read Winston Ewert’s article here. Under a uniformly distributed null, he calculates over a million bits of CSI for the given natural pattern.
Is that really what you think the article says? And isn't it up to the anti-IDists to tell us what their relevant hypotheses are? And what happens if there aren't any such relevant hypotheses?Joe
August 16, 2013
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Hey R0bb, AGAIN if you don’t like it all YOU have to do is demonstrate that nature, operating freely can produce what we call CSI.
If you'd like to see an example of nature producing CSI, you can read Winston Ewert's article here. Under a uniformly distributed null, he calculates over a million bits of CSI for the given natural pattern. Which brings us back to my questions: Are you talking about CSI under a uniformly distributed chance hypothesis (which seems to be the way that you personally calculate CSI -- you just "count the bits"), or under all relevant hypotheses? If the latter, then how do you go about determining which hypotheses are relevant?R0bb
August 16, 2013
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I wonder why evolutionists such as Coyne, P Z Myers, Fox and Liddle et all studied the ordered nature of the universe, what we call, 'empirical science' (however currently hobbled by atheist bigotry), instead of just the statistics of randomness? All very puzzling. Taking minds 'full of chaos', viz nonsense, to institutes of higher learning, in order to have them informed about the ordered nature of the universe, then making careers out of rubbishing science in favour of chaos!Axel
August 16, 2013
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BTW not one TSZ regular can elucidate a theory of unguided evolution. It's really strange that the TSZ doesn't have any posts that demonstrate unguided evolution can actually do something. Now THAT would be something to discuss and its absence is very telling. Attacking ID won't help you Alan. Even if you think ID fails you will still have nothing.Joe
August 16, 2013
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BTW there's a discussion at TSZ on Casey's piece. Just click on my name to get to itAlan Fox
August 16, 2013
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Yes Alan, given your level of ignorance, scienctific endeavors will always be a disappointement for you. Also, given the fact that there isn't any theory of unguided evolution, it appears that appeasing your appetite for a theory isn't a requirement- not that you would know what a theory is...Joe
August 16, 2013
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Robb you state:
Since Meyer is talking about our experience, presumably we should know how we go about making CSI assessments.
When I look at something that was designed, say a Formula 1 race car,,, http://static.ddmcdn.com/gif/formula-one-12.gif ,,, I don't consciously go through a bunch of mathematical calculations to discern that it was brilliantly designed. Much the same with the Bacterial Flagellum which has energy conversion efficiency of nearly 100% and rotates at 1,500 rps which is far faster than even the fastest formula 1 race car,, Bacterial Flagellum - A Sheer Wonder Of Intelligent Design - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3994630 To me it is beyond ludicrous for Darwinists to insist that something that far exceeds a formula 1 race car in terms of energy efficiency and operational capacity is best explained as a chance assemblage of parts, especially when,, "There are no detailed Darwinian accounts for the evolution of any fundamental biochemical or cellular system only a variety of wishful speculations. It is remarkable that Darwinism is accepted as a satisfactory explanation of such a vast subject." James Shapiro - Molecular Biologist I don't know about you Robb, but it is not rocket science for me to discern brilliant design when I see it: Souped-Up Hyper-Drive Flagellum Discovered - December 3, 2012 Excerpt: Get a load of this -- a bacterium that packs a gear-driven, seven-engine, magnetic-guided flagellar bundle that gets 0 to 300 micrometers in one second, ten times faster than E. coli. If you thought the standard bacterial flagellum made the case for intelligent design, wait till you hear the specs on MO-1,,, Harvard's mastermind of flagellum reverse engineering, this paper describes the Ferrari of flagella. "Instead of being a simple helically wound propeller driven by a rotary motor, it is a complex organelle consisting of 7 flagella and 24 fibrils that form a tight bundle enveloped by a glycoprotein sheath.... the flagella of MO-1 must rotate individually, and yet the entire bundle functions as a unit to comprise a motility organelle." To feel the Wow! factor, jump ahead to Figure 6 in the paper. It shows seven engines in one, arranged in a hexagonal array, stylized by the authors in a cross-sectional model that shows them all as gears interacting with 24 smaller gears between them. The flagella rotate one way, and the smaller gears rotate the opposite way to maximize torque while minimizing friction. Download the movie from the Supplemental Information page to see the gears in action. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/12/souped-up_flage066921.htmlbornagain77
August 16, 2013
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Shucks! I'm destined to be forever disappointed. From the title of the OP, I thought there was going to be an exposition of a theory of "Intelligent Design"!Alan Fox
August 16, 2013
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Hey R0bb, AGAIN if you don't like it all YOU have to do is demonstrate that nature, operating freely can produce what we call CSI. That would be much better than your continued whining.Joe
August 16, 2013
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… why then they might be asked just what their issues really are, and those issues won’t turn out to be “information theory” or “specified complexity.” Hence all the evasion and fancy dancing. But don’t expect serious questions to be asked any time soon.
Actually, many serious questions have been asked about ID's information theoretic concepts, especially specified complexity. For example, when Meyer says that "in our experience, only intelligent agents produce this type of information [i.e. CSI]", is he talking about CSI under a null hypothesis of equiprobability, or under all relevant non-design hypotheses? If it's the latter, then how do we determine which hypotheses are relevant? Since Meyer is talking about our experience, presumably we should know how we go about making CSI assessments. So maybe the OP author and the other participants in this forum can tell me how they personally choose their null hypotheses when determining whether something exhibits CSIR0bb
August 16, 2013
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Intelligent design begins with a seemingly innocuous question: Can objects, even if nothing is known about how they arose, exhibit features that reliably signal the action of an intelligent cause? Wm. Dembski
Yes, they can. Most, if not all, anti-IDists always try to force any theory of intelligent design to say something about the designer and the process involved BEFORE it can be considered as scientific. This is strange because in every use-able form of design detection in which there isn’t any direct observation or designer input, it works the other way, i.e. first we determine design (or not) and then we determine the process and/ or designer. IOW any and all of our knowledge about the process and/ or designer comes from first detecting and then understanding the design. IOW reality dictates the the only possible way to make any determination about the designer(s) or the specific process(es) used, in the absence of direct observation or designer input, is by studying the design in question. If anyone doubts that fact then all you have to do is show me a scenario in which the designer(s) or the process(es) were determined without designer input, direct observation or by studying the design in question. If you can't than shut up and leave the design detection to those who know what they are doing. This is a virtue of design-centric venues. It allows us to neatly separate whether something is designed from how it was produced and/ or who produced it (when, where, why):
“Once specified complexity tells us that something is designed, there is nothing to stop us from inquiring into its production. A design inference therefore does not avoid the problem of how a designing intelligence might have produced an object. It simply makes it a separate question.” Wm. Dembski- pg 112 of No Free Lunch
Stonehenge- design determined; further research to establish how, by whom, why and when. Nasca Plain, Peru- design determined; further research to establish how, by whom, why and when. Puma Punku- design determined; further research to establish how, by whom, why and when. Any artifact (archeology/ anthropology)- design determined; further research to establish how, by whom, why and when- that is unless we have direct observation and/ or designer input. Fire investigation- if arson is determined (ie design); further research to establish how, by whom, why and when- that is unless we have direct observation and/ or designer input. An artifact does not stop being an artifact just because we do not know who, what, when, where, why and how. But it would be stupid to dismiss the object as being an artifact just because no one was up to the task of demonstrating a method of production and/ or the designing agent. And even if we did determine a process by which the object in question may have been produced it does not follow that it will be the process used. As for the people who have some "God phobia": Guillermo Gonzalez tells AP that “Darwinism does not mandate followers to adopt atheism; just as intelligent design doesn't require a belief in God.” (As a comparison no need to look any further than abiogenesis and evolutionism. Evolutionitwits make those separate questions even though life’s origin bears directly on its subsequent diversity. And just because it is a separate question does not hinder anyone from trying to answer either or both. Forget about a process except for the vague “random mutations, random genetic drift, random recombination culled by natural selection”. And as for a way to test that premise “forgetaboutit”.) For more information please read the following: Who Designed the Designer? (only that which had a beginning requires a cause) Mechanisms in Context Intellegent Design is about the DESIGN not the designer(s). The design exists in the physical world and as such is open to scientific investigation. All that said we have made some progress. By going over the evidence we infer that our place in the cosmos was designed for (scientific) discovery. We have also figured out that targeted searches are very powerful design mechanisms when given a resource-rich configuration space. Intelligent Design is the study of patterns in nature that are best explained as the result of intelligence. -- William A. DembskiJoe
August 16, 2013
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