Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

ID and the Science of God: Part III

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I have been reflecting on the critical responses to my posts, which I appreciate. They mostly centre on the very need for ID to include theodicy as part of its intellectual orientation.

 

The intuitive basis for theodicy is pretty harmless: The presence of design implies a designing intelligence. Moreover, in order to make sense of the exact nature of the design, you need to make hypotheses about the designing intelligence. These hypotheses need to be tested and may or may not be confirmed in the course of further inquiry. Historians and archaeologists reason this way all the time. However, the theodicist applies the argument to nature itself.

 

At that point, theodicy binds science and theology together inextricably — with potentially explosive consequences. After all, if you take theodicy seriously, you may find yourself saying, once you learn more about the character of nature’s design, that science disconfirms certain accounts of God – but not others. Scientific and religious beliefs rise and fall together because, in the end, they are all about the same reality.

 

This is explosive because we live in a world where (allegedly) false scientific beliefs and false religious beliefs are treated radically differently. The former are a matter of public concern: Stamp them out now before our kids’ minds are contaminated! However, the latter are seen as being of purely private concern: Only the belief’s holder bears the consequences. I suppose this double-standard is what makes us ‘modern’, or at least ‘secular’. We end up tolerating all sorts of religious beliefs – including militant atheism – while even minor deviations from the scientific orthodoxy can lead to ostracism, as when Michael Reiss opened the door to creationist questioning of evolution.

 

Now some people on this blog believe that the safest way out of this minefield is to say that ID makes no hypotheses about the designing intelligence – some even go further to say that in principle the designing intelligence cannot be inferred from design. If you take these policies seriously, you won’t have any science at all. You’ll just have a toolkit of concepts and techniques for reliable design detection. That’s nice, but it doesn’t explain why all these designs should be treated as part of a common object of inquiry. Here you need some underlying laws and principles. This brings you back to proposing hypotheses about how the intelligent designer’s mind works. And then you’ll have science.

 

Even a simple concept like ‘irreducible complexity’ doesn’t really make sense except as a step towards a theory of the intelligence behind the design. Imagine a Darwinist’s knee-jerk dismissal of Behe’s concept: ‘Just because, say, a cell looks like it’s been purpose-built doesn’t mean that you can compare its parts to those of a mousetrap. That’s to take a superficial similarity and read into it way too much meaning. The cell’s apparent design could have been just as easily brought about by a combination of contingencies spread over a long stretch of time. Keep off the mechanistic metaphors, if you really want to understand how life works’.

 

My point here is that the Darwinist’s knee-jerk dismissal, however unjustified, is nevertheless right about one thing – namely, that Behe’s concept is not only about nature’s design but also the designing intelligence. For the Darwinist, to theorize both together begs the question against his position, which holds that the appearance of design need not implicate a designing intelligence. So it’s no surprise that Behe has been led to argue theodicy with Ken Miller. Yes, Behe is religious but his science already builds in the idea of a designing intelligence that we are trying to fathom at the same time we are trying to understand the design features of life.

 

One final thought: When militant Darwinists like Dawkins and Dennett call the teaching of religion ‘brainwashing’ that demands some sort of cerebral hygiene, they are mainly exercised about the claims of religion that explicitly tread on scientific ground. They get most of their rhetorical mileage from targeting Young Earth Creationists but it’s pretty clear that they also have ID in their sights. Perhaps the only virtue of these attacks is that they take the cognitive content of ID sufficiently seriously to realize that it’s incompatible with a strong naturalistic atheism. It would be too bad if avowed defenders of ID did not take the theory as seriously as its staunchest – and perhaps smartest – opponents do.

 

 

Comments
Dr. Time, your comments seem a little like stream of consciousness ramblings. The questions you ask don't really seem to be real pointed questions, they seem to be more of an internal dialogue you are having with yourself. Are you engaging anyone in particular, or any post in particular?Clive Hayden
January 13, 2009
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I agree with Stephen B above. There is no warrant to put limits on what we can know, constrain a priori what we cannot know, or insist on a clear cut demarcation between science and philosophy. There is, of course, a continuum, and surely it is wise to publically push what is most easily demonstrated and agree to disagree on the harder stuff. I assume Steve Fuller has seen William A. Dembski’s Christian Theodicy in Light of Genesis and Modern Science. You can be sure that ID folks schooled in this area will be speaking out accordingly. But to have an official ID theodicy—I for one wouldn’t like that. I’m for open theism, which I think is Scriptural. So why can’t the ID folks agree to disagree on such issues and keep the Big Tent big? Disputing a diversity of ideas, in fact, is the best way to the truth—not dogmatism and exclusion. I’m all for theological disputation, and rooting it in science and the real world. So if this is what Steve Fuller means, how could we disagree? When we decry the dichotomy between public knowledge (“science”) and private knowledge (“religion”), what is repugnant is government mandated dogmatism. As a nation we must agree on certain things (such as once upon a time the constitution), and let the First Amendment take care of the rest. So if you want ID to be a comprehensive Theory of Everything, uniting the science with theology, then are you advocating a One World Religion? This side of the World to Come, I should think not.Rude
January 13, 2009
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ab @16: Would you be kind enough to explain how design can be inferred without understanding at least a little about the nature of the designer? I find bFast's post @8 compelling. JJJayM
January 13, 2009
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I am not very sure but I believe the Darwinists are very delighted to have Steve Fuller come by to add the "who is the designer" and "how does it think" components to ID. ID should just stick to the real-time facts as always. DaveScot, I agree with you all the way. The Darwinists want to do everything possible to make ID run around in circles, an infinite loop. I'd say thanks but no thanks, ID is doing fine without that. I hear Creationism is open to such "scientific" endeavors as Steve Fuller proposes. It seems they have more scientific evidence about the nature of the designer. That is fine, but ID is not open to such extrapolations and/or integrations.ab
January 13, 2009
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rockyr, I accept everything in the Darwinian paradigm in terms of forces or processes which shape offspring (sometimes called the modern synthesis and which is constantly be adjusted). I think there is good enough evidence to accept these. And if one wants to doubt the efficacy or speed of some of these process then that is a separate argument. These processes/forces will lead to changes in the gene pool of a species or to a new gene pool of which its members will be considered a different species if given enough time. This is basic micro evolution and will lead to a wide variety of life on the planet. However, what ID disputes and I whole heartedly agree is that there is a limit to what these processes can accomplish. Darwinist do not believe there is a limit and on this and mainly this the debate hangs. This limit Behe called the Edge of Evolution. And while technically some of the new species represent macro evolution according to some definitions of the term there has never been any evidence that these Darwinian processes will generate novel complex capabilities. To me this is the essence of the debate and Behe's conclusions are constantly being reinforced with each new genome being mapped and with each new generation of micro organisms with no new complex capabilities being identified. To me the concept of the Edge of Evolution is key which is why I say there are tons of ID research being conducted as we speak by anti ID researchers. They just don't realize it. I don't think this relates to what Steve Fuller is saying. I believe the debate should be elsewhere. I have bought his recommended books and have not read any yet so I have little to comment on his approach. I have been vocal on the theodicy argument but no one responds. I think the theodicy argument is a red herring and Professor Fuller thinks it is intricate to the argument. But I have to pass on this at the moment since it not really what I am interested in.jerry
January 13, 2009
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GOD(nature+ALL) is quite a card player and doesn`t always like to win so that no one really will know just how good he really is.If he deals some one a good hand on purpose and he loses and the winner wins and gets the credit for a new creation or solving an impossible up until then,would intelligent design be born from self indulged winning and GOD but weaker than the table thinks.GOD sometimes loves to play to lose.He gets to see smiles.*^*Dr. Time
January 13, 2009
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Professor Fuller, Jerry (Moderator, Here is the post again, please delete the previous two.) I am not sure I understand your implications, namely that the Darwinist theorizes "both" the nature's design and the designer or intelligence together. Isn't the whole point of Darwinism to sidestep both? "My point here is that the Darwinist’s knee-jerk dismissal, however unjustified, is nevertheless right about one thing – namely, that Behe’s concept is not only about nature’s design but also the designing intelligence. For the Darwinist, to theorize both together begs the question against his position, which holds that the appearance of design need not implicate a designing intelligence." Also, to clarify Jerry's disclaimer in part II, 21 "Just a disclaimer. I think Darwinian processes account for much of life but not all. Some things are beyond Darwinian processes or whatever else is in the latest synthesis." Jerry, what do you consider these Darwinian processes to be? Is it from Darwin's point of view (he posited only one mechanism, natural selection, although he supposedly believed in Lamarckism all his life), or do you consider the whole "new synthesis" or neo-darwinism? And if the latter, which processes do think as valid, or accounting for life and why? Would this be a contradiction to what professor Fuller is saying?rockyr
January 13, 2009
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Moderator, Sorry about the last post, I made a mess of it, I took some comments to ponder before posting. Please delete eveything that is below the line ----- ----- Thanksrockyr
January 13, 2009
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Professor Fuller, Jerry I am not sure I understand your implications, namely that the Darwinist theorizes "both" the nature's design and the designer or intelliegnce together. Isn't the whole point of Darwinism to sidestep both? "My point here is that the Darwinist’s knee-jerk dismissal, however unjustified, is nevertheless right about one thing – namely, that Behe’s concept is not only about nature’s design but also the designing intelligence. For the Darwinist, to theorize both together begs the question against his position, which holds that the appearance of design need not implicate a designing intelligence." Also, to clarify Jerry's disclaimer in part II, 21 "Just a disclaimer. I think Darwinian processes account for much of life but not all. Some things are beyond Darwinian processes or whatever else is in the latest synthesis." Jerry, what do you consider these Darwinian processes to be? Is it from Darwin's point of view (he posited only one mechanism, natural selection, although he supposedly believed in Lamarckism all his life), or do you consider the whole "new synthesis" or neo-darwinism? And if the latter, which processes do think as valid, or accounting for life and why? Would this be a contradiction to what professor Fuller is saying? ---- 7, jerry, 01/11/2009, 7:44 pm, Barry, Actually there is a wholesale Darwin of the Gaps mentality in the evolutionary biology community. In one recent book I read, I must have annotated nearly 200 instances where the authors just used the expression “it was selected for” when something came up for which there was no explanation for., I kept on writing BQ in the margins to indicate they were begging the question. In other places I would write JSS for just so stories or imagination for when they made up possible explanations. So to accuse the ID people of God of the Gaps arguments is hypocritical. They probably do not know it when they do it because it is such ingrained behavior. But it is completely accepted., 16, DonaldM, 01/12/2009, 7:59 am, GotG arguments are, as far as I can tell, just another way to sneak philosophical naturalism into science. From the perspective of the anti-ID mavins, a ‘gap’ is ‘an observed phenomenon with no known natural explanation but for which we’ll supply one at a later date”., For more on this, read William Dembski’s The Chance of the Gaps., 18, jerry, 01/12/2009, 9:11 am, ID does not say that something is intelligently designed only that there is a probability that it is intelligently designed. The amount of the probability increases with the complexity and functional organization of the phenomena but never becomes one. The probability decreases as naturalistic explanations are proffered that have empirical backing and increases as additional research fails to find empirical backing for a naturalistic cause or new organized complexity becomes apparent., Hence it is not a God of the Gaps argument because it never absolutely concludes a God, only the possibility of an intelligent agent. And that probability of an intelligent agent rises and falls as new evidence is discovered., It is the critics of ID that are absolute in their claims. They claim a 100% non intelligent cause for all phenomena as a given. This assumption can not decrease from a probability of one even with new information. While they accuse ID of invoking a God, they invoke an unknown natural cause. They do not make it an option but a requirement if you want to play their game., What is interesting about ID in this regard is that it does not claim to be able to detect flawless design, but simply a high degree of design. That is, ID does not require the claim that the designer is omnipotent and omniscient. It is as compatible with the lesser claim of the Demiurge as it is with the greater claim of the Biblical God. Thus, it leaves wide open the question what kind of God is responsible for the world., Just a disclaimer. I think Darwinian processes account for much of life but not all. Some things are beyond Darwinian processes or whatever else is in the latest synthesis. https://uncommondescent.com/philosophy/id-and-the-science-of-god-part-ii/#more-4520 Michael Behe and Ken Miller have been repeating many of the original 17th century moves of the theodicy debate here. (scroll down to October 2007). * Nicole Malebranche, Descartes’ ablest 17th century follower, anticipates Behe’s concept of irreducible complexity in a discussion of the constitution of the heart. It is part of one of the original statements of what biologists call ‘preformationism’, i.e. the idea that at least certain units of life are created ready-made. Here is the passage, taken from a recent (and excellent) book on Malebranche’s subtle but relevant arguments. * Malebranche is also of relevance for his concept of ‘vision in God’, which imply that divine and human minds do indeed overlap. And by the way ‘overlap’ is not a clever word for ‘analogy’ but intended in its usual meaning: i.e. ‘partial identity’. (A nod to the (closet?) theistic evolutionist shadowing me.) === https://uncommondescent.com/education/id-and-the-science-of-god-part-iii/#more-4548 13 January 2009 ID and the Science of God: Part III Steve Fuller I have been reflecting on the critical responses to my posts, which I appreciate. They mostly centre on the very need for ID to include theodicy as part of its intellectual orientation. The intuitive basis for theodicy is pretty harmless: The presence of design implies a designing intelligence. Moreover, in order to make sense of the exact nature of the design, you need to make hypotheses about the designing intelligence. These hypotheses need to be tested and may or may not be confirmed in the course of further inquiry. Historians and archaeologists reason this way all the time. However, the theodicist applies the argument to nature itself. At that point, theodicy binds science and theology together inextricably — with potentially explosive consequences. After all, if you take theodicy seriously, you may find yourself saying, once you learn more about the character of nature’s design, that science disconfirms certain accounts of God – but not others. Scientific and religious beliefs rise and fall together because, in the end, they are all about the same reality. This is explosive because we live in a world where (allegedly) false scientific beliefs and false religious beliefs are treated radically differently. The former are a matter of public concern: Stamp them out now before our kids’ minds are contaminated! However, the latter are seen as being of purely private concern: Only the belief’s holder bears the consequences. I suppose this double-standard is what makes us ‘modern’, or at least ‘secular’. We end up tolerating all sorts of religious beliefs – including militant atheism – while even minor deviations from the scientific orthodoxy can lead to ostracism, as when Michael Reiss opened the door to creationist questioning of evolution. Now some people on this blog believe that the safest way out of this minefield is to say that ID makes no hypotheses about the designing intelligence – some even go further to say that in principle the designing intelligence cannot be inferred from design. If you take these policies seriously, you won’t have any science at all. You’ll just have a toolkit of concepts and techniques for reliable design detection. That’s nice, but it doesn’t explain why all these designs should be treated as part of a common object of inquiry. Here you need some underlying laws and principles. This brings you back to proposing hypotheses about how the intelligent designer’s mind works. And then you’ll have science. Even a simple concept like ‘irreducible complexity’ doesn’t really make sense except as a step towards a theory of the intelligence behind the design. Imagine a Darwinist’s knee-jerk dismissal of Behe’s concept: ‘Just because, say, a cell looks like it’s been purpose-built doesn’t mean that you can compare its parts to those of a mousetrap. That’s to take a superficial similarity and read into it way too much meaning. The cell’s apparent design could have been just as easily brought about by a combination of contingencies spread over a long stretch of time. Keep off the mechanistic metaphors, if you really want to understand how life works’. My point here is that the Darwinist’s knee-jerk dismissal, however unjustified, is nevertheless right about one thing – namely, that Behe’s concept is not only about nature’s design but also the designing intelligence. For the Darwinist, to theorize both together begs the question against his position, which holds that the appearance of design need not implicate a designing intelligence. So it’s no surprise that Behe has been led to argue theodicy with Ken Miller. Yes, Behe is religious but his science already builds in the idea of a designing intelligence that we are trying to fathom at the same time we are trying to understand the design features of life. One final thought: When militant Darwinists like Dawkins and Dennett call the teaching of religion ‘brainwashing’ that demands some sort of cerebral hygiene, they are mainly exercised about the claims of religion that explicitly tread on scientific ground. They get most of their rhetorical mileage from targeting Young Earth Creationists but it’s pretty clear that they also have ID in their sights. Perhaps the only virtue of these attacks is that they take the cognitive content of ID sufficiently seriously to realize that it’s incompatible with a strong naturalistic atheism. It would be too bad if avowed defenders of ID did not take the theory as seriously as its staunchest – and perhaps smartest – opponents do.rockyr
January 13, 2009
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These things always happen gradually and incrementally. Even Einstein’s theory of relativity which was prefigured by the contributions of his predecessors. What is called for here is patience. Would you have asked Thomas Edison to invent the computer? No, I'd ask Charles Babbage, who did it before Edison was born. ;)Venus Mousetrap
January 13, 2009
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SimonG @3 inspired me to also register to applaud Dr. Fuller's series of posts here. I've long been bemused by the insistence of many ID proponents that the nature of the designer is off limits for discussion. I believe the whole reason for researching design is to better understand the designer. Dr. Fuller is convincing me that it's probably not even logical to infer design without some minimal concept of the designer. Anthropologists can determine if something is designed because they know how humans design things and what humans use those designed things for. If we refuse to even speculate on the nature of the designer, how can we say that a cell is designed but a rock isn't? I know the answer is CSI, but that presupposes something about the designer, surely? JJJayM
January 13, 2009
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DaveScot, you have resorted to cynicism as evidence. This is not your best work. The real question is, "do we learn something about the designer by looking at the design?" Either we do, in which case as ID progresses, so progresses some knowledge of the designer; or we don't, in which case the chasm between science and religion is absolutely unbreachable. Have we learned that the earth, and life, is older than about 6000 years? Some would still argue that we haven't, but they have a lot of evidence to discount. Further, the best of them use other scientifically gathered evidence as their proof. If we have learned that the earth, life, and humanity, is old, we have disproved something about the designer. If we have disproved something about the designer, then the chasm between science and religion is not infinite. We see in nature a singularity of thought. The scientific establishment has concluded, and convinced me, that it is because all life spawned from a single universal common ancestor. If there is a single ancestor, then that single ancestor was created by no more than a single intelligence*. If life on earth was spawned by a single intelligence* then we have learned something very important about the nature of that designer. The predominance of physicists believe that there was a single big bang. Again, if there was a single big bang, either the big bang was a chance event, or the product of a single intelligence*. Again, we learn something about the very nature of the necessary designer. Physicists also contend that time itself, as we understand it, started at the moment of the big bang. If so, then either chance extends beyond time as we know it, or time is the product of a single intelligence*, that the single intelligence* is outside of time as we know it. Hence, it becomes clear that we do, of necessity, learn something abou the designer* as soon as we postulate design. The plural, designers is inapproriate*. The designer that we learn something about is vastly more intelligent than we are, and exists outside of time as we know it. These three statements are statements determined by the science, not by a religous filter. Do we learn anything else about the designer? Actually, there seems to be a lot that is already inferrable: Contrary to many religous positions, the designer intentionally uses death. Contrary to many religous positions, the designer intentionally uses random chance. Contrary to many religous positions the designer intentionally uses fierce competition. Contrary to many religous positions, the designer intentionally uses calamity. I could go on. The bottom line, I see no way of inferring "intelligent design" without immediately discovering that the evidence demands that we infer certain characteristics upon the intelligent agent(s). *Possibly a group of intelligences acting in consert.bFast
January 13, 2009
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The intuitive basis for theodicy is pretty harmless: I suppose that depends on what you mean by "harmless." The ID project is founded upon the strategic avoidance of speculation about particulars of the designer. To use an obscene phrase, "he/she/it" may be the God of the universe, the dreams of Vishnu, the "little green men" of Francis Crick, or the "universal will to become" of Kurt Vennegut. Speculation about the motivation or ends of the "designer" is not a prerequisite for detecting design. Stonehenge and other neolithic sites are a prime example. The intuitive basis for theodicy... The "intuitive basis" is not shared by all of those who have hooked their wagons to the design movement, for example David Berlinski, whom I suspect is a much a contrarian as an IDer. I doubt he finds "theodicy" intuitive. He does, however, find the neo-Darwinian Synthesis (or whatever they are calling it now) woefully insufficient as an explanatory filter and is willing to follow the investigations of ID as a secular search for a better explanatory filter. I don't know how he would react to a "statement of faith." ...a theodicy is pretty harmless A "theodicy", by definition, is a statement about the motivation and intent of the "designer", more specifically a designer that is also a "deity". Given the efforts of the those within the ID movement to avoid any overt speculation about the designer it could be suggested that your desire for a theodicy is intended to overturn the stated goals of ID, that is, as a secular project to detect design wherever it may be found. Having said all this, I, as a theistic Christian, do have a theodicy and hold certain opinions about the designer and his goals. Some of those opinions would never have been formed had there not been an ID movement founded upon the principles it espouses. So I feel a certain "debt of gratitude" to ID and would not wish to see their very successful strategy overturned by an impetuous desire to add theodicy to the mix.dgosse
January 13, 2009
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----Steve F: "Scientific and religious beliefs rise and fall together because, in the end, they are all about the same reality." This is well stated and worth some reflection. Unity of truth is a vitally important concept; without it, we fall into intellectual quicksand. So, why not allow the different expressions of truth to have their say, each in coordination with the other? Why not allow Theology and Philosophy to bridge the scientific gap on questions about theodicy, at least until ID has more to say. In keeping with that point, why not give ID science time to find its own natural development, which may, as it turns out, provide us with a new paradigm that surpasses CSI and IC and, for all we know, tell us more about what the designer had in mind. This is not something that can be summoned at will. We will have to wait until fate provides us with another genius--a genius capable of standing of Behe's and Dembski's shoulders, building on their contributions, and maybe even correcting an error or two. We must also face that fact that, since science has never been able to provide satisfactory answers about "meaning," it may always be so limited. One can only do so much with data. In any case, scientific trailblazers are not like ordinary scientists, they are extraordinary, which means that they are in the minority; they push science forward while they pull the majority along kicking and screaming. Like it or not, they must submit to the limits of time, culture, and the resources available [or, in this case, ALLOWED]. These things always happen gradually and incrementally. Even Einstein's theory of relativity which was prefigured by the contributions of his predecessors. What is called for here is patience. Would you have asked Thomas Edison to invent the computer?StephenB
January 13, 2009
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"Good and bad are present in nature and I believe that in order to make full sense of them requires special revelation" Perhaps Darwins special revelation about natural selection and descent with modification might be the answer, at least as far as the method of creation goes. Ok, I'm joking just a little bit but an important question is how do you tell a true revelation from a false one? If I started to attend an evangelical church and then proclaimed to have had a revelation I bet the chances of the congregation accepting it as true depended on how closely my revelation matched their own preferences. Put another way, how would it go down if I jumped up and yelled "I've seen the light, Allah is the true god!"Laminar
January 13, 2009
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Steve - I agree that Behe's irreducibly complex biomolecular machines raise the possibility of making a correct analogy from design in nature to human intelligence. The idea that design might come from something other than a mind is also a non starter because of the way humans perceive design. However, I guess beyond that there remains the problem of the naturalistic fallacy where people try to develop values from facts of nature, or try and read into the mind of God from further facts of nature. Good and bad are present in nature and I believe that in order to make full sense of them requires special revelation. There is an argument from Francis Schaefer for special revelation that the order, beauty and given human wisdom, strongly suggests that the designer would seek rational communication with the creation. Why go to the trouble of creating rational beings with the desire for communication with the transcendent and not provide a rational mechanism for that communication? Prayer and special revelation (and general revelation) provide that means of communication.Andrew Sibley
January 13, 2009
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Well done Steve!!! I signed up just to compliment this piece! Also, irony defined: Davescot making Davescot-bannable comments LOL!SimonG
January 13, 2009
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Oh here's something! We should include Zen Buddhism as part of the intellectual orientation of ID. And ID of course should also include auto repair and business administration. Now that I think about it ID should just include the study of everything. Thanks for making this clear to me. I guess that's why you're a teacher, huh?DaveScot
January 13, 2009
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ID and theodicy. Both have an 'i' and a 'd' in it. The first is science. The latter is religion. You understand the difference, right?DaveScot
January 13, 2009
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