Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Message Theory – A testable ID alternative to Darwinism – Part 1

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Message Theory is a testable scientific explanation of life’s major patterns.

That claim should intrigue you. If I heard such a claim, I would nearly leap across the room to demand more details; else I couldn’t sleep that night. That is because I highly value testability, just as all scientists do, (in physics, chemistry, geology, medicine, engineering, etcetera) – and just as evolutionists do in all their court cases.

Message Theory should even intrigue evolutionists, because it offers what they repeatedly demanded from their opponents – a testable, scientific alternative to evolution. Yes, that is exactly what they demanded. In reality, the evolutionists’ response has been exceedingly superficial, falling into two categories: (1) Silence; or (2) They misrepresent Message Theory. (If you are aware of exceptions, let me know.) Therefore, my posts here will not much address the evolutionists’ response to Message Theory, since a serious response doesn’t much exist.

The creationist/ID response has been more varied, and I focus on that here. Many see Message Theory as exciting and promising. For example, Origins Magazine reviewed it saying, “I can give no greater accolade than urging that this book should now be the starting point for all of our discussions.” Phillip E. Johnson calls it “Bold and fascinating … a comprehensive theory.” Carl Wieland calls it, “Masterpiece … incredible … of immense value.” Michael Behe and many others have given glowing reviews, (see this link). To which I say, Thanks! That’s a good start.

However, some creationists/ID-ists are hesitant to investigate Message Theory, and the central reason is its claim of testability – its claim to make numerous coherent, risky, predictions about what we should see, and should not see. Unfortunately, many creationists/ID-ists do not value testability, and some aggressively dislike testability. Without knowing any details about Message Theory, we encounter their leading objection – testability.

For example, some creationists say, “Aren’t you claiming to test God?” To which I answer: No. Message Theory is about life’s data – many observations that must be explained – and Message Theory explains those observations in a testable (falsifiable, vulnerable, empirically risky) manner. It meets all the criteria for a scientific theory. A theory is tested, not God. The thought process is no different than concerning, say, the Piltdown fossils, which needed an explanation. These fossils were a hoax created by an intelligent designer – a testable explanation that no scientist disputes. We need not test the intelligent designer, (indeed, the designer of the Piltdown Hoax remains unidentified), rather we test the theory. In science we test explanations (i.e., theories); not God.

Also, deep down, many creationists want the ‘certainty of faith,’ and they are not yet comfortable with the inherent riskiness of science – they haven’t learned to balance the two types of thought: risk and certainty.

The classic creationist organizations (ICR, AIG, CRS) often do not value testability, (and sometimes they explicitly oppose testability). Instead, they use a different criterion of science; a different value system. They claim “science must be repeatable, and since origins are not repeatable, creation and evolution are equally unscientific.” They are deeply mistaken. For example, we frequently execute murderers (which is not a flimsy thing to do) based solely on scientific evidence, even though the murder is not repeatable.

Instead, repeatability is how we identify naturalistic laws (as opposed to the work of intelligent beings); therefore the creationists’ demand for ‘repeatability’ is implicitly a demand that science must be purely naturalistic and cannot include an intelligent designer. They are shooting themselves in the foot!

Thankfully the ID organizations don’t take that approach. They take a more sophisticated approach, yet they tend to undervalue testability nonetheless, (sometimes through redefining it into obscurity).

In my many discussions with my fellow creationists/ID-ists, the foremost obstacle to Message Theory is their devaluing or misunderstanding of testability. So let me pause to underscore this for my readers: If you do not value testability highly, then leave now, or you will only waste your time, and mine. Let me put it stronger: Anyone (creationist, ID-ist, or evolutionist for that matter) who cheapens testability is a danger to science, and moreover, they miss many opportunities to advance creation/ID as superior science.

Let me put my claim stronger still: Message Theory is testable science, and macro-evolutionary theory (as practiced by its modern proponents) is not. I employ testability – the same tool evolutionists use in all their court cases – to turn the tables on evolutionists.

After handling some comments, I will next discuss Message Theory proper.

– Walter ReMine

The Biotic Message – the book

Comments
KRIS: (9):
This is the very definition of the Argument From Ignorance. “Not X, therefore Y.”
Darwin's method of argumentation in the Origins fits your very definition of the "Argument From Ignorance". Darwin argued, e.g., that if we believe that God is All-Knowing, then we must also believe that this All-Knowing God created animals in such a way as to allow man to "domesticate" species, thus leading the animal kingdom in directions that nature will not take it. This is proposition X. He then gives examples of what humans have done to wild species, the tremendous variations brought about via domestication. He concludes that this proposition contradicts the notion of an "All-Knowing" God since it gives the appearance that man---who is NOT "All-Knowing---is capable of what God Himself is not. Thus he rejects Proposition X, and, instead, says that is only reasonable to accept Proposition Y: natural selection and random variation. Per your very defintion, this is an Argument From Ignorance. Which is the worse argument: arguing that evidence of design implies the presence of an intelligent agent, or arguing from one's personal notions about what God can and cannot do, or, rather, what God would or would not do? I'm interested in your answer.PaV
February 17, 2009
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B L Harville, "A scientific hypothesis must be mathematically modellable." Where do you get off creating yet another "definition of science". I find a funny-shaped stone. I develop the scientific hypothesis that the stone was carved by non-natural processes (humans). Where is my mathematical model? Is my hypothesis bogus? We are still waiting for an effective mathematical model showing the validity of the neo-Darwinian hypothesis. As such has not been forthcoming, it would seem reasonable that there simply is no hypothesis of orignins, right!? 'Seems that "falsifiability" should be the only scientific criteria. I still contend, however, that ID is not a scientific theory but a framework, a metatheory. If Irreduceable Complexity (a theory) is falsified, if CSI (a theory) is falsified, if Haldane's dilemma (brought to our attention by Walter ReMine) is found vacous, if Mr. ReMine's "message theory" (which I don't yet understand because I haven't read his book yet -- its on my short list) then the ID framework will come up with another theory. The Irreduceable Complexity theory can run out of proposed irreduceables, but ID can always come up with another theory. It is for this reason that I suggest that ID is not a theory because it is not falsifiable.bFast
February 17, 2009
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Davescot:
In the meantime the design hypothesis remains a perfectly valid scientific hypothesis.
Not if all you're saying is "the intelligent designer did it." A scientific hypothesis must be mathematically modellable.B L Harville
February 17, 2009
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Davescot:
KRiS is yet another sock puppet from the Panda’s Thumb forum. Same one I ejected a couple months ago when his subtle mockery of Denyse became too obvious. Just so y’all know.
A sockpuppet lacks sincerity. KRis, in my opinion, is sincere in stating his opposition to ID and doesn't deserve your name-calling.B L Harville
February 17, 2009
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JayM By what criteria do we decide what is a credible explanation of how the flagellum evolved? What you find credible I may find incredible and a just so story. Message theory is interesting, but I wonder if it isn't confining to limit one's argument to saying that it all points to just ONE designer. It makes it hard to analogize to the evolution of cars and computers by intelligent design where many designers are responsible for the diversity thereof.Collin
February 17, 2009
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Since the claim is that it is not possible in principle for a flagella to come into being without intelligent input, the prediction can be refuted by a credible, naturalistic explanation of how it could have come about, even if that turns out not to be how it did come about.
If explanations alone had any merit I would have cruised through school. That is way some testable demonstration is required. That is take a population or two or three or flagella-less bacteria, and let them have at it- even try to "tempt" motility by moving the nutrition just away from them.
A Google search for “evolution flagella OR flagellum” yields a number of articles discussing exactly this. As an icon of the ID movement, the flagellum appears endangered.
Not when one takes a close look at one.- (video won't load)
True, which is why ID theory must, well, evolve to include the mechanisms used by the designer. Without an hypothesized mechanism, research potential is limited.
Just how can we tell HOW the flagellum was designed? To me design is a mechanism. And artificial selection is one SPECIFIC design implementation mechanism. Genetic engineering and genetic algorithms programmed into genomes which directs the chemistry required. But this is like asking natives of the Amazon that unless they can tell me how my laptop was designed and how it was made, they can't tell it was designed.
Without empirical evidence and a unifying hypothesis behind predictions such as this, ID is little more than an inspired conjecture, with good potential for further research.
And yet there exist several design hypotheses- complete with predictions and falsifications.Joseph
February 17, 2009
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KRiS is yet another sock puppet from the Panda's Thumb forum. Same one I ejected a couple months ago when his subtle mockery of Denyse became too obvious. Just so y'all know.DaveScot
February 17, 2009
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That’s not the only way to do so, of course. Since the claim is that it is not possible in principle for a flagella to come into being without intelligent input, the prediction can be refuted by a credible, naturalistic explanation of how it could have come about, even if that turns out not to be how it did come about. A Google search for “evolution flagella OR flagellum” yields a number of articles discussing exactly this. As an icon of the ID movement, the flagellum appears endangered.
I agree that there are ways in which the flagellum could have come about by chance and law alone. I think just about any statement that includes "cannot" is probably false. the statement "the flagellum could not have come about by chance and law" is false, because there are proposed ways that it could have come about. Whether or not those pathways are true has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not they falsify the statement. But the interesting thing to me, the reason the flagellum is not an endangered ID icon, is the likelihood of proposed scenarios. It is the likelihood of natural generation of a flagellum that keeps it as an object of interest. If Earth and life on Earth were 10^500 years old, maybe all of the proposed scenarios of natural flagellum had enough time to make them likely. But in the time it had to come about (uncertain, but not a very long time by geological standards) it is my opinion that the proposed scenarios are unlikely. While they are not falsified (in fact, they are unfalsifiable, unless an accurate record of the origin of every flagella that has ever existed on Earth can be produced), perhaps their likelihood could be discussed in a scientific manner, using the most up-to-date knowledge we have on every factor involved (nano-biomechanics, genetics, microbiological selection, chemistry, etc.)uoflcard
February 17, 2009
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DaveScot @8
Design detection is generally and practically falsifiable in biologic application. For instance we can form an ID hypotheses regarding the flagellum thus: The flagellum required an intelligent agency to produce in the first instance.
That's more of a prediction than an hypothesis. It also leads to the obvious question of what empirical observations are explained by the hypothesis that generated this prediction. With the observations, proposed explanation (hypothesis), and prediction(s) clearly stated, we can apply the tools of science to support or falsify the hypothesis.
A single observation, in vivo or in vitro, of a flagellum forming by law & chance alone will falsify the hypothesis.
That's not the only way to do so, of course. Since the claim is that it is not possible in principle for a flagella to come into being without intelligent input, the prediction can be refuted by a credible, naturalistic explanation of how it could have come about, even if that turns out not to be how it did come about. A Google search for "evolution flagella OR flagellum" yields a number of articles discussing exactly this. As an icon of the ID movement, the flagellum appears endangered.
If anyone believes it is not practically possible to make this observation then that would seem to be a tacit admission that it is not a practical possibility for law & chance alone.
That doesn't follow. It could simply require too long a time scale to observe in the lab, so other methods of determining its provenance must be used.
If anyone makes the claim that even if we were to make the observation how could we know that “God” didn’t do it in some undetectable manner. That claim is a departure from science which does not admit supernatural explanations.
True, which is why ID theory must, well, evolve to include the mechanisms used by the designer. Without an hypothesized mechanism, research potential is limited.
In the meantime the design hypothesis remains a perfectly valid scientific hypothesis.
Without empirical evidence and a unifying hypothesis behind predictions such as this, ID is little more than an inspired conjecture, with good potential for further research. Before anyone gets upset at that characterization, it's a good thing. We're still in the early days. All the exciting discoveries are ahead of us! JJJayM
February 17, 2009
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#6 Landru ...yeah that is amazing. Is that real?
Klymkowsky and Clemson University chemistry Professor Melanie Cooper were recently awarded a $500,000 grant from the National Science Foundation for a three-year project titled Chemistry, Life, the Universe and Everything, or CLUE. The project includes developing a general chemistry curriculum using the emergence and evolution of life as a springboard to introduce and explain related chemistry concepts, Klymkowsky said.
What is abiogenesis doing in any K-12 science classroom? I'm an ID advocate who doesn't think ID should be taught in science classrooms yet, although what neo-Darwinism has failed to prove should be taught. But abiogenesis has less of a right to be in a science classroom than ID. That is a blantant example of a worldview being shoved down people's throats w/o any evidence. I can't get over how hypocritical that is. They blatantly do the exact thing they accuse ID-supporters of doing - bypassing the scientific method straight for the classroom. If abiogenesis is in classrooms, then ID should be. There is no defending that. It is 100% speculation at this point, has not been scientifically proven to any reasonable extent. Yet the NSF, defender of almighty science, skips all of that and gives $500,000 to have its worldview fed to childrenuoflcard
February 17, 2009
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#9 KRiS
jerry
So each day they falsify their theory according to the criteria of repeatability or testability. It is why ID exists.
This is the very definition of the Argument From Ignorance. “Not X, therefore Y.”
I think he meant to say that's why the theory of ID exists, that's why it's being considered. It's more like "After many years of testing, not X yet, so what about Y?" At least that's how I read it. And if that's not what he said, then it's what I'm saying :D To me, neo-Darwinism seems unfalsifiable. That is unless evolution is overturned altogether (we find human remains that date back to the Jurassic, for example). It seems to me to be impossible to PROVE that something didn't happen. That's how pop-evolution has come about...militant blogs become as scientific as multi-million dollar labs because they're all doing the same thing: "Well, it could have happened this way..." All of the atoms in the universe, including those that make up every brain on Earth (if materialist conciousness turned out to be real) could have randomly assembled 5 seconds ago, forming all of our memories correctly in the process, as well as computer databases, films, and any other record of the past. This could have happened. It's also impossible to prove that it didn't. ...That's a bit more extreme than imaginative evolutionary theories about how bio-nanotechnology formed randomly, but it illustrates the point.uoflcard
February 17, 2009
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Kris, I love those who accuse us of using the argument from ignorance and display their own ignorance in the process. If someone has an hypothesis and does a test of that hypothesis and the research fails to support the hypothesis, they are failing to support their theory. If the test is repeated ten thousand times, I will go out on a limb and say that the theory is being falsified. I realize that the proper conclusion is that it can never be falsified. So maybe the wording was not exactly correct but like all critics here, the best they can do is nitpick. Otherwise you would have offered the correct wording and interpretation. Or even better, research results. Let's here it for Kris who has joined the ranks of nit pickers but never offer substance. We are picking up quite a collection since the moderation rules were changed.jerry
February 17, 2009
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Oops- "there is NOT a requirement for telic processes"Joseph
February 17, 2009
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KRiS, Dave's point- excuse me Dave- is that if a non-telic solution is found there is a requirement for telic processes. Not that a telic process didn't do it or could not have done it. It's just that when there isn't any difference don't add something not required.Joseph
February 17, 2009
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jerry
So each day they falsify their theory according to the criteria of repeatability or testability. It is why ID exists.
This is the very definition of the Argument From Ignorance. "Not X, therefore Y." DaveScot
A single observation, in vivo or in vitro, of a flagellum forming by law & chance alone will falsify the hypothesis.
Flipping it around ("X, therefore not Y") and saying it's a "test" of the theory doesn't make it any less fallacious.KRiS
February 17, 2009
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Design detection is generally and practically falsifiable in biologic application. For instance we can form an ID hypotheses regarding the flagellum thus: The flagellum required an intelligent agency to produce in the first instance. A single observation, in vivo or in vitro, of a flagellum forming by law & chance alone will falsify the hypothesis. If anyone believes it is not practically possible to make this observation then that would seem to be a tacit admission that it is not a practical possibility for law & chance alone. If anyone makes the claim that even if we were to make the observation how could we know that "God" didn't do it in some undetectable manner. That claim is a departure from science which does not admit supernatural explanations. In the meantime the design hypothesis remains a perfectly valid scientific hypothesis. Design detection is rooted in statistical mechanics and can be applied to any physical system. Biotic message theory seems to be a departure from that or at the very least it is narrow in scope.DaveScot
February 17, 2009
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Evolution is an historical process and as such like history theoretically cannot be tested. For history, certain ideas can be hypothesized and then the historical record investigated to see if they are supported as an historian looks at old records, artifacts etc. to support an hypothesis. However, naturalistic evolution is actually more than an historical process and supposed to be the result of the laws of nature playing out over time. As such it is testable today because there are an almost endless supply of organisms in the world to examine to see if some pattern exists which supports or falsifies this hypothesis. As such modern evolutionary theory is testable and is constantly tested every day in labs and in the wild by evolutionary biologists. And every day they fail to provide data that supports the latest evolutionary synthesis for Macro evolution with a big "M." So each day they falsify their theory according to the criteria of repeatability or testability. It is why ID exists. I guess we will examine message theory and it may be interesting and can see if it relates in any way to what Kirk Durston is doing.jerry
February 17, 2009
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Sorry, off-topic, but this is really interesting. http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2009-02/uoca-eef021009.php Using OOL to teach general chemistry??? Would a UD official please consider blogging on this? Thanks.landru
February 17, 2009
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Massage Therapy? Why are we talking about massage therapy? (takes a drink of coffe) Oh MESSAGE THEORY- Walter ReMine- now I got it. But anyways Walter, I have seen claimed before- that Creationists do NOT value testability. You repeated it. Yet I have never seen any evidence of this. To me "repeatablity" is testability. That is because all experiments must be able to be repeated in order to be verified. Say I do an experiment and come up with some result- X. Now in order to confirm X someone else has to be able to REPEAT what I did and come to the same conclusion. IOW my premise was TESTED- testability. If one cannot repeat what I did then what I did does not have "testability". THAT has been my experience with Creationists. For example the origin of life- no repeatable- no testable. Cetaceans "evolving" from land mammals- not repeatable, not testable. Dropping weights from a tower- repeatable and and therefor testable. Also you have to be careful with the word [b][i]macro[/i][/b]evolution- [quote]In evolutionary biology today, macroevolution is used to refer to any evolutionary change at or above the level of species.- talk origins[/quote] The way it is defined even YECs accept it.Joseph
February 17, 2009
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Surely this isn't another case of a "theory" doing an end run around peer review by going straight to the popular press, is it? Since "The Biotic Message" was first published in October of 1993, there must be loads of scientific papers demonstrating successful tests of message theory by now, right? (Man, it would be so cool if I was made to look the fool by being bombarded by citations. And no, I'm not being sarcastic here...I would be genuinely happy)KRiS
February 16, 2009
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Your work preceeds you and is interesting to many so I wouldn't be surprised if the creationists were interested, though they may interpret the data differently. The distinction made is simply between science that is observable and repeatable in the present - operational science - and that which deals with past events - 'forensic science' - in which evidence must be interpreted. It is unfortunate to see such innaccuracies and the seemingly obligatory knock to creationists. A sampling from creationists For example, if I design a trajectory that returns men from the moon using the Earth’s atmosphere as a braking mechanism, then this approach can be simulated and tested and verified regardless of my “belief” in the age of the Earth or the mechanism of creation of life on this planet. The ‘clinical expression’ of genes refers to the way genes work in the present world. Studying such matters, with the hope of being able to tailor drugs more precisely targeted to human malfunctions of various sorts, is valid operational science (how the world works)-whereas hypotheses about the unobserved and unobservable past involve historical, or forensic science. In contrast, evolution is a speculation about the unobservable and unrepeatable past. Thus it comes under origins science. Rather than observation, origins science uses the principles of causality (everything that has a beginning has a cause11) and analogy (e.g. we observe that intelligence is needed to generate complex coded information in the present, so we can reasonably assume the same for the past). And because there was no material intelligent designer for life, it is legitimate to invoke a non-material designer for life. Creationists invoke the miraculous only for origins science, and as shown, this does not mean they will invoke it for operational science. The difference between operational and origins science is important for seeing through silly assertions such as the following by Levitt (as quoted by Lerner): ‘… evolution is as thoroughly established as the picture of the solar system due to Copernicus, Galileo, Kepler, and Newton.’ However, we can observe the motion of the planets, but no-one has ever observed an information-increasing change of one type of organism to another. Similarly, believing that the genetic code was originally designed does not preclude us from believing that it works entirely by the laws of chemistry involving DNA, RNA, proteins, etc. Conversely, the fact that the coding machinery works according to reproducible laws of chemistry does not prove that the laws of chemistry were sufficient to build such a system from a primordial soup.butifnot
February 16, 2009
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Message Theory sounds like some arm of Information Theory, but I've been unable to find any reference to it in the math literature.Reg
February 16, 2009
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Where would one go to find out what message theory is.JT
February 16, 2009
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