Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

UD PRO-DARWINISM ESSAY CHALLENGE

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On Sept 23rd, I put up an essay challenge as captioned, primarily to objecting commenter Jerad.

As at October 2nd, he has definitively said: no.

Joe informs us that Zachriel has tried to brush it aside:

Try Darwin’s Origin of Species (1859). It’s a bit dated and longer than 6,000 words, (the 6th edition is 190,000 words), but Darwin considered it just a long abstract, and it still makes for a powerful argument.

This is, frankly, a “don’t bother me” brush-off; telling in itself, as a definitive, successful answer would have momentous impact on this blog.

Zachriel’s response reminds me, all too strikingly, of the cogency of  what Philip Johnson had to say in reply to Lewontin’s claims in his NYRB article in January 1997:

For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. [[Emphasis original]We might more accurately term them “materialists employing science.” And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence. That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) “give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose.”
. . . .   The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [[Emphasis added.] [[The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]

There is a serious matter on the table, to be addressed in the context that there is now a significant empirically grounded challenge to the claim that blind chance forces and mechanical necessity can account for the world of life. And, that reminds us to mention that the co-founder of the theory of evolution from 1869 on argued for intelligent evolution, specifically publishing his views at length in The World of Life. Which, is still a powerful argument that that world is “a manifestation of Creative Power, Directive Mind and Ultimate Purpose.”

Hey, let’s add a vid:

[youtube hxvAVln6HLI]

For instance, here — with simplified paragraphing — is a comment in Wallace’s preface:

. . . the most prominent feature of my book is that I enter into a popular yet critical examination of those underlying fundamental problems which Darwin purposely excluded from his works as being beyond the scope of his enquiry.

Such are, the nature and causes of Life itself ; and more especially of its most fundamental and mysterious powers growth and reproduction. I first endeavour to show (in Chapter XIV.) by a care-ful consideration of the structure of the bird’s feather; of the marvellous transformations of the higher insects ; and, more especially of the highly elaborated wing-scales of the Lepidoptera (as easily accessible examples of what is going on in every part of the structure of every living thing), the absolute necessity for an organising and directive Life-Principle in order to account for the very possibility of these complex outgrowths.

I argue, that they necessarily imply first, a Creative Power, which so constituted matter as to render these marvels possible ; next, a directive Mind which is demanded at every step of what we term growth, and often look upon as so simple and natural a process as to require no explanation ; and, lastly, an ultimate Purpose, in the very existence of the whole vast life-world in all its long course of evolution throughout the eons of geological time.

This Purpose, which alone throws light on many of the mysteries of its mode of evolution, I hold to be the development of Man, the one crowning product of the whole cosmic process of  life-development ; the only being which can to some extent comprehend nature; which can perceive and trace out her modes of action ; which can appreciate the hidden forces and motions everywhere at work, and can deduce from them a supreme and over-ruling Mind as their necessary cause.

For those who accept some such view as I have indicated, I show (in Chapters XV. and XVI.) how strongly it is sup-ported and enforced by a long series of facts and co-relations which we can hardly look upon as all purely accidental coincidences. Such are the infinitely varied products of living things which serve man’s purposes and man’s alone not only by supplying his material wants, and by gratifying his higher tastes and emotions, but as rendering possible many of those advances in the arts and in science which we claim to be the highest proofs of his superiority to the brutes, as well as of his advancing civilisation.

From a consideration of these better-known facts I proceed (in Chapter XVII.) to an exposition of the mystery of cell-growth ; to a consideration of the elements in their special relation to the earth itself and to the life-world ; while in the last chapter I endeavour to show the purpose of that law of diversity which seems to pervade the whole material Universe.

In short, Darwin’s co-founder — and a man who was at least as learned on the substantial evidence as Darwin was — plainly argued at book length with copious evidence, that the evidence on the ground strongly points to design and purpose even within an evolutionary frame. Brushing the challenge off off by pointing to Darwin’s book, fails the giggle test.

So, here is the challenge, placed before the Darwinist (and similar), Blind Watchmaker Thesis objectors to design theory; especially those at TSZ:

The Smithsonian’s tree of life model, note the root in OOL

 

UD PRO-DARWINISM ESSAY CHALLENGE: Compose your summary case for darwinism (or any preferred variant that has at least some significant support in the professional literature, such as punctuated equlibria etc) in a fashion that is accessible to the non-technical reader — based on empirical evidence that warrants the inference to body plan level macroevolution — in up to say 6,000 words [a chapter in a serious paper is often about that long]. Outgoing links are welcome so long as they do not become the main point. That is, there must be a coherent essay, with

(i)an intro,
(ii) a thesis,
(iii) a structure of exposition,
(iv) presentation of empirical warrant that meets the inference to best current empirically grounded explanation [–> IBCE] test for scientific reconstructions of the remote past,
(v) a discussion and from that
(vi) a warranted conclusion.

Your primary objective should be to show in this way, per IBCE, why there is no need to infer to design from the root of the Darwinian tree of life — cf. Smithsonian discussion here —  on up (BTW, it will help to find a way to resolve the various divergent trees), on grounds that the Darwinist explanation, as extended to include OOL, is adequate to explain origin and diversification of the tree of life. A second objective of like level is to show how your thesis is further supported by such evidence as suffices to warrant the onward claim that is is credibly the true or approximately true explanation of origin and body-plan level diversification of life; on blind watchmaker style chance variation plus differential reproductive success, starting with some plausible pre-life circumstance.

It would be helpful if in that essay you would outline why alternatives such as design, are inferior on the evidence we face. [As an initial spark for thinking, contrast my own survey of origins science here on (note the onward resources page), the definition of design theory in the UD resources tab top of this and every UD page, the Weak Argument Correctives in the same tab, the general resources that pop up on clicking the tab itself, and the discussion of design theory in the NWE article here. You may also want to refer to the site of the IDEA Center, and the Discovery Institute CSC site as well as Mike Gene’s Telic Thoughts. Notice IDEA’s essay on the case for design here.] . . . .

I would put this up as an original post, with preliminary contextual remarks and an invitation to respond in the comments section.

I will not submit the post with a rebutting markup or make an immediate rebuttal. In fact, let me make the offer to hold off my own comments for at least five initial comments. I will give you two full days of comments before I post any full post level response; though others at UD will be free to respond in their own right.

And BTW, I am making this offer without consulting with the blog owner or others, I am sure they would welcome a serious response . . .  [NB: I have given how to contact me in the original Sept 23 post, I will not repeat that in a headlined original post.]

That challenge is on the table. In truth, it has always been implicitly on the table. For, as I went on to note on Sept 23:

Now, at any time, in essentially any thread at UD any serious and civil design theory objector could have submitted such an essay, breaking it up into a multi part comment if desired . . .

And, it is quite clear that if there were a cogent, empirically well-grounded blind watchmaker thesis account of the origins of the world of life, there would be no design theory movement in biology.

(There would still be a serious design argument in cosmology, but that is a different matter. That does, however, show that strictly speaking design theory has no need to make its case in the world of life; it is because of the blatant weight of the evidence that there is a design movement on phenomena in the world of life.)

So, there you have it, there is a challenge officially on the table.

Let us see if any of the many objectors to design theory at TSZ or elsewhere — I would even accept a parallel post and discussion here and at TSZ (though, no, I will not be commenting there if that is done) — will be willing to step up to the plate. END

Comments
KF (511):
Just come by Ferry.
Okay!!
F/N: To reason from the known cause of FSCO/I on inference to best explanation anchored on reliable sign and further backed up by t5he needle in the haystack issue is not bailing out. Unless, you have an a priori commitment to naturalistic explanation and the view that intelligence must have emerged from chance and necessity. In which case the problem is not scientific or inductive reasoning but essentially ideological adherence to a deeply flawed worldview.
Part of the trouble is I don't know how to test, measure, detect, define and otherwise nail down non-naturalistic explanations. Accepting a designer/cause who has left no physical remains or plans means that explanation cannot be falsified because I will never know why the designer designed the way 'he' did. For example: Universal common descent with modification HAS to leave traces like the fossil, genetic and geographic record. A designer would not HAVE to leave any such traces. A designer would not HAVE to have 'related' life forms use the same protein coding sequences given the vast number of protein sequence redundancies. But universal common descent has no choice. A designer that designs so that their efforts looks like universal common descent is virtually impossible to predict. Except to say: the designer wanted to leave a trail that looks exactly like universal common descent. So . . . why assume a designer? Aside from making assumptions about the designer's abilities and intentions (which I've been told we cannot do) then that kind of designer, that mimics universal common descent without signalling their goals, gets us nothing. AND, anytime any one says: why did the designer do it that when when they could have picked something else? the standard reaction is to shrug and say: we can not know the designer's intentions. Not very satisfactory and not explanatory at all. Unless the designer was trying to hide 'his' actions. But again, I'm making assumptions about the designer. So, an unknowable, unmeasurable, undefinable, unpredictable cause which we can't even be sure exists now or then or ever. Choosing not to accept such a 'cause' is not ideologic adherence, it's just good science. ANYWAY, I hope you have a good weekend and that things are looking up. A dear friend of mine almost died this week and I hope to get to visit them in the hospital Sat or Sun. No matter what our views, life is a precious gift and friends make living a pleasure.Jerad
October 19, 2012
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Jerad: Just come by Ferry. KF F/N: To reason from the known cause of FSCO/I on inference to best explanation anchored on reliable sign and further backed up by t5he needle in the haystack issue is not bailing out. Unless, you have an a priori commitment to naturalistic explanation and the view that intelligence must have emerged from chance and necessity. In which case the problem is not scientific or inductive reasoning but essentially ideological adherence to a deeply flawed worldview.kairosfocus
October 19, 2012
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KF: I do sincerely hope your small nation is coming to terms with its recent tragedy. And that name calling and finger pointing are taking second place to ensuring that such things will not happen again. I hope you are all banning together and working to make your country a better place. And one that is a model for its neighbours and, hopefully, for the world. I send you my best wishes and hopes for a better and brighter future. AND, if I ever come to visit, I expect a proper guided tour. Deal??Jerad
October 18, 2012
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KF (503):
I do not have time for any elaborate discussion, so I just note thsat you have mischasracterised the deisgn inference on empirically tested, reliable signs, in particular funcitonally specific complex organisation and associated information. This is not an inference on ignorance but on what we inow agents do.
Hey, I agree with you. Prove to me there is/was an agent and I'll pay attention. If you ain't got an agent then . . .
And, the metrics/quantification of info used are only several decades old, this cannot be “ancient,” it traces to the rise of modern info theory and info technology.
The design argument is not new. Some of the supporting justifications are.
That is a big part of the base on which we are re-examining what is old, including theories of origin that were plausible before we lesarned how much info is involved and what makes such info. Similarly, the origin of life is pivotal and unaddressed. It is the game changer that decisively puts design at the table of credible explanations as of right.
Okay, fair point. But why are you bailing out and saying life could not have arisen by natural processes when the whole field has not been studied for very long? At the very least you should be saying: well, might be but you haven't nailed it yet. Which is exactly what OoL biological researchers ARE saying. We haven't got it yet, but we're working on it.
As to onward developments, the info challenge deepens as we are dealing with dozens of phyla and subphyla and multiple millions of bits of info to account for, in a context of 150 years of suddenness in the fossils. And so on. Not to mention, protein domains isolated to 1 in 10^60 of AA space, and more. This is not what say Paley, Darwin’s foil was dealing with, though his prescient analysis of a thought exercise of a self replicating watch, is still significant and revealing on what one has to assume to reject the inference he made. Gotta go
Lots of work to be done. Why is the ID camp calling the game already and saying: nope, couldn't have been undirected natural forces, must have been designed? Is it really time to come to a conclusion? Are you really willing to draw a line in the sand now and live with it? If I come back in 10 or 20 years with a lot more research to draw on are you sure you'll still be taking exactly the same stance? I plan on being around in 20 years. Shall we lay down our bets now and see who wins?Jerad
October 18, 2012
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Mung (502):
Right. But you want us to allow you to take it as a given, from which you say all else follows. No more islands. Truth be told you can’t even get back TO the first replicator, much less before it. You know no more about the first replicator than you do about OOL. Since you don’t even know what it looks like, you just have no evidence on which to base your claim. Yet you assert you are appealing to evidence. You’re not. You have faith.
If it is ever shown that there could not have been a first, basic replicator then my assertion falls to the ground and deserves to be treated with utter contempt and derision. Clearly. Have you got that proof?
You’re much more willing than I to allow for an unproven and undefined and unmeasured cause than I am.
And now we see just how false that claim is. You’re appealing to an undefined and possibly even undefinable “first replicator” for which you have no evidence as the ’cause’ of all that follows, including the ability to eliminate any ‘islands of function’ problem. The fact is you don’t know that a first replicator eliminates the islands of function problem. You have no evidence it does. You take it on faith.
Not completely. I think the combined evidence of the fossil record, the geographic distribution of species, morphology and genetics clearly establishes universal common descent. Which points to a first basic replicator. Or, more likely, a population of first basic replicators. It's not faith for me. It's an argument based on the evidence and not depending on introducing an unknown, undefined and unmeasured cause.Jerad
October 18, 2012
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Mung (501):
How many generations would you need to go back before a DNA test could not establish your relationship?
I don't know the current state of DNA testing. Are you pinning your claims on the state of the art? The general approach, and what I would think would be the default assumption would be, is that ancestors and common links were there. I don't understand the drive to cast that into question. It's what we all see and experience: I had parents. My parents had parents. Why shouldn't all parents have parents?Jerad
October 18, 2012
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Mung:
And you just have to love Theobald’s ‘proofs’ That phylogenetic inference finds the correct tree:
In another study, 24 strains of mice were used in which the genealogical relationships were known. Cladistic analysis reproduced almost perfectly the known phylogeny of the 24 strains (Atchely and Fitch 1991).
really. some mice. how many different species of mice?
Alan Miller said:
Yet molecular and morphological evidence says that there is a tree for uncontroversial “things-that-are-not-so-different” – individual cats, or different cat species – and the same techniques reveal a tree for relationships between “things-that-are-more-different”.
Joe Felsenstein on October 18, 2012 at 12:50 pm said:
A quibble: within species, the molecular and morphological evidence does not show that the differentiation of individuals is treelike. My genealogy is not treelike because (shock! horror!) I actually had not one ancestor, but two: my mother and my father. Samples of individual gene loci have trees of ancestry — coalescent trees — but they differ from locus to locus. Above the species level the pattern rapidly becomes treelike, and that is where the dispute between PaV and Alan is mostly occurring, but within species the pattern is not a single tree.
And yet what does Theobold (and others at TSZ follow him here) use as evidence as to whether phylogenetics finds the correct tree? Within species trees. Yes, look for yourself: Does Phylogenetic Inference Find Correct Trees?Mung
October 18, 2012
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Mung (500):
Take just the fossils we have in the Cambrian strata. How many different phylum are represented?
A few.
What makes those fossils consistent with universal common descent? In what way(s) could those fossils possibly be inconsistent with universal common descent?
If we saw, in the fossil record. a life form that was not consistent with what had come before or what was observed later. For example: a rabbit in the Cambrian layers. Nothing even remotely similar occurs in those layers of fossils. A hominid find in the Cambrian layers would do it as well. You focus on the gaps and say: AHA, there's no evidence. But there is evidence for common descent. You're pointing to the gaps and wanting to throw the whole theory out.
Where are their ancestors?
Maybe they went out for some Chinese and missed the fossilisation event. Why is absence of evidence evidence of absence for you? Just because it didn't leave a fossil it doesn't exist? Really? Does that make sense?
Assume you’re an alien species come to earth at the end of the Cambrian. Would you believe in universal common descent?
If I also considered the genetic, morphologic and geographic evidence as well then yes, I would. Why do you put so much weight on the fossils? Why don't you address the molecular evidence. What about protein functional redundancy? What about DNA coding redundancy? What about transposons? What about ERVs?Jerad
October 18, 2012
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keiths on October 18, 2012 at 3:38 am said:
And because unguided evolution predicts a nested hierarchy of the kind we actually observe in nature, out of the trillions of alternatives available to a Designer who guides evolution, it is literally trillions of times better than ID at explaining the evidence.
Unguided evolution (whatever that is) doesn't predict anything. If it did it wouldn't be unguided. You can't even tell us what unguided evolution is. How then it explains anything at all is a complete mystery. You can't even answer a simple question about what unguided means.Mung
October 18, 2012
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jerad: I do not have time for any elaborate discussion, so I just note thsat you have mischasracterised the deisgn inference on empirically tested, reliable signs, in particular funcitonally specific complex organisation and associated information. This is not an inference on ignorance but on what we inow agents do. And, the metrics/quantification of info used are only several decades old, this cannot be "ancient," it traces to the rise of modern info theory and info technology. That is a big part of the base on which we are re-examining what is old, including theories of origin that were plausible before we lesarned how much info is involved and what makes such info. Similarly, the origin of life is pivotal and unaddressed. It is the game changer that decisively puts design at the table of credible explanations as of right. As to onward developments, the info challenge deepens as we are dealing with dozens of phyla and subphyla and multiple millions of bits of info to account for, in a context of 150 years of suddenness in the fossils. And so on. Not to mention, protein domains isolated to 1 in 10^60 of AA space, and more. This is not what say Paley, Darwin's foil was dealing with, though his prescient analysis of a thought exercise of a self replicating watch, is still significant and revealing on what one has to assume to reject the inference he made. Gotta go. KFkairosfocus
October 18, 2012
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Jerad:
To be picky I said I can’t go before the first basic replicator. I suppose I should have also said I don’t know what the first basic replicator looked like or how it powered itself, etc.
Right. But you want us to allow you to take it as a given, from which you say all else follows. No more islands. Truth be told you can't even get back TO the first replicator, much less before it. You know no more about the first replicator than you do about OOL. Since you don't even know what it looks like, you just have no evidence on which to base your claim. Yet you assert you are appealing to evidence. You're not. You have faith. Jerad to KF:
You’re much more willing than I to allow for an unproven and undefined and unmeasured cause than I am.
And now we see just how false that claim is. You're appealing to an undefined and possibly even undefinable "first replicator" for which you have no evidence as the 'cause' of all that follows, including the ability to eliminate any 'islands of function' problem. The fact is you don't know that a first replicator eliminates the islands of function problem. You have no evidence it does. You take it on faith.Mung
October 18, 2012
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Jerad:
Any names or images or any other data that I acquire help clarify the picture but I can make a tree of common descent regardless.
How many generations would you need to go back before a DNA test could not establish your relationship?Mung
October 18, 2012
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Jerad:
I’m not using the gaps as evidence of absence which is illogical. I’m saying that the fossils we see, in the stratigraphic order we see them, are consistent with universal common descent.
Take just the fossils we have in the Cambrian strata. How many different phylum are represented? What makes those fossils consistent with universal common descent? In what way(s) could those fossils possibly be inconsistent with universal common descent? Where are their ancestors? Assume you're an alien species come to earth at the end of the Cambrian. Would you believe in universal common descent?Mung
October 18, 2012
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Mung: Fossils are kind of like photographs of ancestors. If I try to go backwards along my family tree after a few generations I start not having photographs to go with the names. And eventually I won't even have names. But I know those 'missing' ancestors existed in my own nesteed hierarchy (to use a phrase you've been discussing recently). I know I have an ancestor who was alive at the time of William the Conquerer. I don't know the name or have a picture but I know I have such an ancestor. Well lots really. Any names or images or any other data that I acquire help clarify the picture but I can make a tree of common descent regardless.Jerad
October 18, 2012
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Mung (496):
I can’t go before the first basic replicator at this time. I don’t understand the issues, I haven’t even tried at this point.
So you can then, at least go back to the first basic replicator? What did the first basic replicator look like? Did it have a cell membrane? How did it convert energy into work? What mechanism of replication did it use?
To be picky I said I can't go before the first basic replicator. I suppose I should have also said I don't know what the first basic replicator looked like or how it powered itself, etc. Again, not my speciality. I'm assuming it was something like a bacterium or a very, very simple cell. At some point the process would have to arrive at some simple, basic unicellular life form which would have reproduced asexually. But they may have been able to 'share' genetic material as seems to happen nowadays at times. Sadly, I don't think we'll ever be 100% sure but I'm hoping science will find some probable antecedents. But once you get unicellular critters you can then get colonies and other conglomerations.Jerad
October 18, 2012
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Mung (495):
You cannot just look at the fossil record and point to gaps as an argument.
LOL! How then do you suppose we can dispute the following assertion? Jerad:
… the fossil evidence is consistent with universal common descent given that not all life forms formed fossils.
Talk about sheltering an ‘evidence’ from any possible disconfirmation!
I'm not using the gaps as evidence of absence which is illogical. I'm saying that the fossils we see, in the stratigraphic order we see them, are consistent with universal common descent.Jerad
October 18, 2012
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Jerad:
I can’t go before the first basic replicator at this time. I don’t understand the issues, I haven’t even tried at this point.
So you can then, at least go back to the first basic replicator? What did the first basic replicator look like? Did it have a cell membrane? How did it convert energy into work? What mechanism of replication did it use?Mung
October 18, 2012
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Jerad:
You cannot just look at the fossil record and point to gaps as an argument.
LOL! How then do you suppose we can dispute the following assertion? Jerad:
... the fossil evidence is consistent with universal common descent given that not all life forms formed fossils.
Talk about sheltering an 'evidence' from any possible disconfirmation!Mung
October 18, 2012
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KF (493):
1: We are not “given” a self-replicating cell. We need to get there, that is the first and biggest issue, and the one that puts design squarely on the table.
We don't know how the first cell arose. You're much more willing than I to allow for an unproven and undefined and unmeasured cause than I am.
2: With all due respect, repeating that you have dismissed or ignored or punted an issue, does not answer to the issue on the merits.
I'm not claiming I have addressed nor do I plan to address OoL. I've been very, very clear. I've been told many times that ID can't go past the design inference at this time. I can't go before the first basic replicator at this time. I don't understand the issues, I haven't even tried at this point. Maybe I will someday in which case I will be glad to engage in that topic.Jerad
October 18, 2012
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Jerad: I do not have much time just now so: 1: We are not "given" a self-replicating cell. We need to get there, that is the first and biggest issue, and the one that puts design squarely on the table. 2: With all due respect, repeating that you have dismissed or ignored or punted an issue, does not answer to the issue on the merits. KFkairosfocus
October 18, 2012
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KF (491): Most of what you've posted we have gone over before. So I don't think there's much new I can contribute.
1 –> In fact, the evidence does NOT point unequivocally to universal common descent driven by blind watchmaker thesis chance variation plus mechanical necessity, starting from the absence of a root to the tree of life model at OOL, and going on to the pattern of suddenness in the fossils per Gould’s summary as cited. Similarly, there is a consistent absence of evidence of incremental variation across the supposed supercontinent of life forms allegedly traversed by a branching tree pattern.
Given a first basic replicator the fossil evidence is consistent with universal common descent given that not all life forms formed fossils. The geographic distribution of life forms is also consistent with universal common descent and was one of Wallace and Darwin's mail lines of argument. Comparative morphology of present and past life forms is consistent with universal common descent. And the molecular evidence is strong evidence for universal common descent. Any one line of evidence is strong, four lines combined are very compelling. Universal common descent does not assume any extra forces other than that which have been observed and are 'natural' and undirected. Universal common descent is in concordance with other sciences and so does not need any special pleading. And universal common descent 'explains' many features of past and present life forms. You cannot just look at the fossil record and point to gaps as an argument.
2 –> Indeed, ever since Wallace, co-founder of evolutionary theory, it has been highlighted (but often suppressed) that common design can account for the evidence just as well. That has been excluded, not on empirical grounds, but on ideologically driven a prioris that have manifestly distorted the definition of science and its methods, as has already long since been linked on, explained and cited.
What we see could be down to common design but that hypothesis is not as parsimonious as universal common descent in that it requires the presence of an unproven, undocumented and undefined designer who has left no evidence of 'his' presence other than the claimed designed objects. You can't have design without a designer. I know, I know, sometimes you CAN infer design even without knowing anything (including existence) about a designer. Joe likes his Stonehenge on Mars example. But the truth is: we've never found anything that was unarguable designed without knowing there were designers around to do the work. They left material evidence of their presence and abilities and tools. If ID's designer built all these wonderful little cellular machines then 'he' left no physical evidence. Quite a good trick. If 'he' existed.
3 –> You will recall that the challenge I have put on the table pivots on first addressing OOL. This, you and others have consistently ducked. And yet, this is precisely the point where you would see that the mechanisms of life and the machinery of life in the cell are not merely analogous to other machinery but are instances of it.
Yup, I've been very clear about that. If life is made up of little machines does that mean determinism is true? That life is just a series of mechanical devices following their programming?
4 –> The ATP synthetase enzyme is a rotary assembly machine; and one that is central to the whole energetic system of life, which uses highly endothermic chemical reactions that are fed with energy from ATP. The Kinesin walking molecule that moves with vesicles across the microtubule cellular highway network is to all intents and purposes a tiny walking truck. The Ribosome is an assembly machine that per another machine, the mRNA control tape, assembles protein chains under code control. The tRNA is a position-arm assembly device. And so forth.
Okay. So it looks too complicated to you to have arisen via undirected processes.
5 –> Proteins, the workhorses of the cell, come in fold domains that are deeply isolated in AA config space, to 1 in 10^60 or more, i.e proteins space is the first serious island of function case, and is closely linked to isolation of the zones in the D/RNA code space where we can find the right code sequence to make such machines.
We can't figure out how it arose naturally so it must be designed?
6 –> I have already highlighted the Angus Menuge summary on challenges to correct assembly and interface coupling that must face the one who would originate the flagellum as a typical example. It is worth doing so again, as it does not seem to have soaked in:
Or, it could be, that I and a lot of other people disagree that something being complicated means it was designed.
7 –> That cluster of challenges more than suffices to show why the complex multipart machinery in a living cell will come in islands of function.
Um . . . that I don't follow. I keep hearing that common features could be an indication of common design . . . if there's enough shared bits and pieces then are there really separate islands of function?
8 –> Most centrally, the self-replication in the cell pivots on an irreducibly complex, code controlled von Neumann Self Replicator. This being pivotal to the process of reproduction that is at the heart of life. And, again, it is a case of functionally specific complex organisation and information (one involving CODES, digital, symbolic codes), for which FSCO/I, there is but one empirically warranted explanation, and where this is also backed up by the implications of the needle in the haystack type analysis.
Again, we only know one way such things could arise so it must have been designed? A random search is highly unlikely to have arrived at a functional configuration so it must have been designed? And if there is no designer? Have you considered that? Why do you so easily accept the possibility of a designer in the first place? What if the design inference is wrong? How are you sure that a designer with the capacities you are assuming they have could have been around at the time? What about their life support system? What about their equipment? Where did they come from? Where is the material evidence of their presence? Even designers gotta eat. And poop presumably. And reproduce . . . better not go there. I think fashion designers reproduce, there seems to be a lot of them . . . are they functional? Do they serve a purpose? Hard to say really.
9 –> Where also we are talking of a genome scope on observation of “simplest” and “smallest” genomes of 100 – 1,000 kbits, vastly beyond the threshold where the available atomic and temporal resources of the observed cosmos could reasonably search enough of the possibilities to expect to find specific and narrow zones by any blind process.
Good thing no one is saying they arose via some random, blind process. Chemicals don't bond randomly.
10 –> As we go to multicellular life forms, the observable evidence puts the jump in scope of required additional info as of order 10 – 100 million bits, to account for the novel body plans evident in the Cambrian life revolution on. (And BTW, the debate you have tried to entertain on the peer review status of the Meyer paper is technically a red herring distractor relative to the point being made on the merits by clipping it. Even if the paper did not pass peer review, which the evidence says it did never mind ideological retraction, the case is there to be dealt with on the merits. the sudden appearance of the phyla and subphyla in the Cambrian fossils is a direct evidence of islands of function.
The life forms only 'suddenly' appear in the fossil record. What about the genetic record? Evolutionary theory does not just rest on the fossil record. Some biologists think the genetic evidence alone is enough to establish universal common descent.
11 –> Indeed the molecular evidence and more go on to point to the single-root tree of life being outdated. the evidence is instead of code reuse with for instance at the root a neat little collaborative mechanism of gene transfer. Then, when we get to higher level organisms, we see evidence of code reuse and the like to the point where large swaths of our own genome sit in that of kangaroos. Yes, marsupials; branch-point 150 MYA on conventional timeline, isn’t it.)
The single root tree is outdated? So all life on earth shares the same arbitrary genetic code because . . . ? Code reuse . . . common descent . . . I'll pick the explanation that does not require an unobserved force or cause.
12 –> Then, we need to deal with mosaic animals like the Platypus, which has genetic info from all over the place brought together to build an animal that bridges so many patterns of body plan that when European biologists first had specimens, they thought they were a practical joke. That now continues down to the molecular level.
I do not know the current 'explanation' of platypuses . . . platypii? But if I have time I'll have a look.
Jerad, all of this and more has been brought up to you at one time or another in the past several weeks. It is not that you have found or put forth good reason to reject but that you have chosen to conform with the dominant group in the sciences. That is an appeal to collective authority of the guild. To that, I simply state that no authority is more credible than his or her facts, reasoning and underlying assumptions. So, when we see a controversy and many longstanding anomalies and fresh ones coming up day by day, that is a sign that the old order is not to be taken implicitly on their collective say so.
It's not just me though is it? You want to assume I'm brainwashed or ideologically driven when I disagree with you. Show me some material evidence of a designer working at the time you claim (which is . . . ) with the abilities you claim (which are . . . ) and then I'll give your ideas some more consideration. Until then the hypothesising of a designer is just a hypothesis that has not been established.
But then, Planck once said, with patent sadness, that a new approach in science advances one funeral at a time.
But design inference is not new is it? And it seems to be retreating further and further into the gaps in our knowledge. AND there isn't really a theory of Intelligent Design. You and Joe seem to have different versions. I don't know what Mung thinks 'cause he's (?) perfected that Dr Berlinski tactic of hit-and-run questioning without taking a stance. Give me a coherent, consistent ID hypothesis that is testable, that'd be a good place to start.
PS: Okay, I see your comment on the air investigation.
I hopt things go well. That everything is handled properly and transparently. That lessons are learned and implemented. And, most importantly, that no such avoidable incidents like that every happen again. Any person's death diminishes us all.Jerad
October 18, 2012
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Jerad: While I do not have much time or energy for this topic just now given what I have to be dealing with here, I will have to remark briefly re:
I said the evidence points to universal common descent which implies all life on earth is on one ‘island of function’. If you can come up with empirical evidence, not just suppositions and analogies to inanimate objects, then we’ll see. Show me the evidence that there are more ‘islands of function’ then we’ll talk.
1 --> In fact, the evidence does NOT point unequivocally to universal common descent driven by blind watchmaker thesis chance variation plus mechanical necessity, starting from the absence of a root to the tree of life model at OOL, and going on to the pattern of suddenness in the fossils per Gould's summary as cited. Similarly, there is a consistent absence of evidence of incremental variation across the supposed supercontinent of life forms allegedly traversed by a branching tree pattern. 2 --> Indeed, ever since Wallace, co-founder of evolutionary theory, it has been highlighted (but often suppressed) that common design can account for the evidence just as well. That has been excluded, not on empirical grounds, but on ideologically driven a prioris that have manifestly distorted the definition of science and its methods, as has already long since been linked on, explained and cited. 3 --> You will recall that the challenge I have put on the table pivots on first addressing OOL. This, you and others have consistently ducked. And yet, this is precisely the point where you would see that the mechanisms of life and the machinery of life in the cell are not merely analogous to other machinery but are instances of it. 4 --> The ATP synthetase enzyme is a rotary assembly machine; and one that is central to the whole energetic system of life, which uses highly endothermic chemical reactions that are fed with energy from ATP. The Kinesin walking molecule that moves with vesicles across the microtubule cellular highway network is to all intents and purposes a tiny walking truck. The Ribosome is an assembly machine that per another machine, the mRNA control tape, assembles protein chains under code control. The tRNA is a position-arm assembly device. And so forth. 5 --> Proteins, the workhorses of the cell, come in fold domains that are deeply isolated in AA config space, to 1 in 10^60 or more, i.e proteins space is the first serious island of function case, and is closely linked to isolation of the zones in the D/RNA code space where we can find the right code sequence to make such machines. 6 --> I have already highlighted the Angus Menuge summary on challenges to correct assembly and interface coupling that must face the one who would originate the flagellum as a typical example. It is worth doing so again, as it does not seem to have soaked in:
C1: Availability. Among the parts available for recruitment to form the flagellum, there would need to be ones capable of performing the highly specialized tasks of paddle, rotor, and motor, even though all of these items serve some other function or no function. C2: Synchronization. The availability of these parts would have to be synchronized so that at some point, either individually or in combination, they are all available at the same time. C3: Localization. The selected parts must all be made available at the same ‘construction site,’ perhaps not simultaneously but certainly at the time they are needed. C4: Coordination. The parts must be coordinated in just the right way: even if all of the parts of a flagellum are available at the right time, it is clear that the majority of ways of assembling them will be non-functional or irrelevant. C5: Interface compatibility. The parts must be mutually compatible, that is, ‘well-matched’ and capable of properly ‘interacting’: even if a paddle, rotor, and motor are put together in the right order, they also need to interface correctly. ( Agents Under Fire: Materialism and the Rationality of Science, pgs. 104-105 (Rowman & Littlefield, 2004). HT: ENV.)
7 --> That cluster of challenges more than suffices to show why the complex multipart machinery in a living cell will come in islands of function. 8 --> Most centrally, the self-replication in the cell pivots on an irreducibly complex, code controlled von Neumann Self Replicator. This being pivotal to the process of reproduction that is at the heart of life. And, again, it is a case of functionally specific complex organisation and information (one involving CODES, digital, symbolic codes), for which FSCO/I, there is but one empirically warranted explanation, and where this is also backed up by the implications of the needle in the haystack type analysis. 9 --> Where also we are talking of a genome scope on observation of "simplest" and "smallest" genomes of 100 - 1,000 kbits, vastly beyond the threshold where the available atomic and temporal resources of the observed cosmos could reasonably search enough of the possibilities to expect to find specific and narrow zones by any blind process. 10 --> As we go to multicellular life forms, the observable evidence puts the jump in scope of required additional info as of order 10 - 100 million bits, to account for the novel body plans evident in the Cambrian life revolution on. (And BTW, the debate you have tried to entertain on the peer review status of the Meyer paper is technically a red herring distractor relative to the point being made on the merits by clipping it. Even if the paper did not pass peer review, which the evidence says it did never mind ideological retraction, the case is there to be dealt with on the merits. the sudden appearance of the phyla and subphyla in the Cambrian fossils is a direct evidence of islands of function. 11 --> Indeed the molecular evidence and more go on to point to the single-root tree of life being outdated. the evidence is instead of code reuse with for instance at the root a neat little collaborative mechanism of gene transfer. Then, when we get to higher level organisms, we see evidence of code reuse and the like to the point where large swaths of our own genome sit in that of kangaroos. Yes, marsupials; branch-point 150 MYA on conventional timeline, isn't it.) 12 --> Then, we need to deal with mosaic animals like the Platypus, which has genetic info from all over the place brought together to build an animal that bridges so many patterns of body plan that when European biologists first had specimens, they thought they were a practical joke. That now continues down to the molecular level. ________ Jerad, all of this and more has been brought up to you at one time or another in the past several weeks. It is not that you have found or put forth good reason to reject but that you have chosen to conform with the dominant group in the sciences. That is an appeal to collective authority of the guild. To that, I simply state that no authority is more credible than his or her facts, reasoning and underlying assumptions. So, when we see a controversy and many longstanding anomalies and fresh ones coming up day by day, that is a sign that the old order is not to be taken implicitly on their collective say so. But then, Planck once said, with patent sadness, that a new approach in science advances one funeral at a time. KF PS: Okay, I see your comment on the air investigation.kairosfocus
October 18, 2012
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KF: I just figured out one spot of misunderstanding: When I used the term 'inquiry' in comment 487 I was referring to the process going on in your country investigating the recent tragedies. My fault for not using the proper term and for giving you the wrong impression. Sorry about that.Jerad
October 18, 2012
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KF (488): I thought you wanted to let it lie?
That you do not seem to know what I am quoting tells me you have not seriously read the OSC investigatory letter, which is pivotal to understanding what has happened, not even the para cited previously. But this is an electronic copy of a primary investigative document by a senior investigator who is a lawyer, never mind NCSE’s dismissive remark about him — and in a choice between credibility of NCSE and OSC (on track record), the latter comes up trumps, no sweat.
The OSC letter reflects only one side of the story. It's a record of a preliminary, uncompleted investigation where the other parties were not questioned. AND it's focus was NOT the publication issue.
(FYI, the reason no case went forward was a jurisdictional issue, not the substance of the discrimination and harassment claim.
Dr Sternberg was not an employee so the OSC had no case to pursue.
Proper peer review was the crux of the matter at stake, and Dr Sternberg was VINDICATED.
His handling of the affair is highly questionable and he was not vindicated as we do not know what happened as he has refused to divulge details that could vindicate him. I prefer evidence to trust. Why won't Dr Sternberg lay the matter to rest once and for all? He could askt he reviewers if they wouldn't mind their participation being made public. He could present the comments and suggestions the reviewers made about the paper without divulging their identities. There simply is no evidence, beyond his word, that he fulfilled the journal's requirements.
That is how we know that something is very wrong with the retraction, in a context where it can also be shown that the claim of remit is a case of after the fact gerrymandering. What we are seeing here is plainly a climate of intimidation, fear, harassment, career-busting and polarisation, driven by ideology. The Congressional staff investigation, which has a much more extensive report and appendix, found much the same pattern. That you seem to think the investigations are ongoing and do not know that the harassment cost Dr Sternberg his marriage as well as his professional reputation and career, is a further indication that you have not done your homework.
I have no knowledge of Dr Sternberg's private life. But I know he did not lose his 'position' at the Smithsonian because of the matter. Since being an editor of an academic journal doesn't pay much he must have had some source of income which I assume was still in place. Again, I am not saying anything about his abilities, I'm just saying he screwed up and he has done very little to help his case. I do not think the investigations are still going on.
And, you should know that the specific identities of peer reviewers is confidential, for excellent reason. I hope you understand the seriousness of going along with ruthless ideologues in their nihilistic, ideologically driven tactics.)
Generally reviewers are kept anonymous for good reasons. But if my professional reputation was on the line then I'd do my best to present evidence that would vindicate me. And I would not, if I had been Dr Sternberg, appoint myself as one of the reviewers. The fact that he did that casts his judgement into question. Now I think we really should let it drop. I've had my say and so I'll not respond anymore. Anyway, you've got important stuff to do!!Jerad
October 18, 2012
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Jerad: That you do not seem to know what I am quoting tells me you have not seriously read the OSC investigatory letter, which is pivotal to understanding what has happened, not even the para cited previously. But this is an electronic copy of a primary investigative document by a senior investigator who is a lawyer, never mind NCSE's dismissive remark about him -- and in a choice between credibility of NCSE and OSC (on track record), the latter comes up trumps, no sweat. (FYI, the reason no case went forward was a jurisdictional issue, not the substance of the discrimination and harassment claim. Proper peer review was the crux of the matter at stake, and Dr Sternberg was VINDICATED. That is how we know that something is very wrong with the retraction, in a context where it can also be shown that the claim of remit is a case of after the fact gerrymandering. What we are seeing here is plainly a climate of intimidation, fear, harassment, career-busting and polarisation, driven by ideology. The Congressional staff investigation, which has a much more extensive report and appendix, found much the same pattern. That you seem to think the investigations are ongoing and do not know that the harassment cost Dr Sternberg his marriage as well as his professional reputation and career, is a further indication that you have not done your homework. And, you should know that the specific identities of peer reviewers is confidential, for excellent reason. I hope you understand the seriousness of going along with ruthless ideologues in their nihilistic, ideologically driven tactics.) KFkairosfocus
October 18, 2012
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KF (482):
Jerad, it is clear that you will not attend to the pattern of evidence on bias and the implications of as close to direct inspection of the review file as we will get, that the article passed proper review by “renowned” scientists.
What renowned scientists? Who are we talking about?
From other reports, it underwent some revision before publication. The behaviour documented surrounding the matter is seriously questionable and all too familiar to someone with my sort of life experiences of having had to deal with prejudice and what ideology and polarisation do otherwise upstanding, decent people. Given “trust us” vs prime source docs, I will pick the docs (providing they fave face validity) every time. I trust you will read these docs (and at least this WaPo report) before forming a final view.
There are two things that are clear. Dr Sternberg appointed himself a reviewer of what he knew would be a highly contentious paper by an author he had a personal relationship with and a possible conflict of interest regarding the topic. AND he has not provided the details of the review process that could exonerate him. He screwed up. Doesn't make him bad or evil.
But this needs not be extended further, especially given that it is off topic and I now have a very contentious issue to deal with here in the aftermath of a fatal crash and a further incident provoking grounding of a local airline. I can only hope the audit about to be carried out can help damp down some of the intensity.
I agree, let's call it finished. I hope the inquiry clears things up.
PS: When you are involved in smear tactics down to unjustly questioning qualifications and basic honesty, destroying not only career but marriage, you bet I will use sharp language. On fair comment per evidence, what NCSE instigated here is without excuse, period.
Destroying marriages? Huh? I'm not questioning anything. I'm just saying that Dr Sternberg screwed up. And he's not presented the evidence that could resolve the issue.Jerad
October 17, 2012
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Mung (481):
I am not criticizing you. I am criticizing your LOGIC (or lack thereof) and questioning your REASONING. You have no reason to believe what you do, and it in fact contradicts other beliefs you hold, yet you believe it anyways, apparently as a matter of faith and with no sense of any cognitive dissonance. Given that you appear to hold self-contradicting beliefs as a matter of faith, I am trying to point that out to you as something you need to address, else I see no hope in attempting to reason with you.
I'm not sure what belief you are referring to. I said there could be other 'islands of function' but that we hadn't seen any. I said the evidence points to universal common descent which implies all life on earth is on one 'island of function'. If you can come up with empirical evidence, not just suppositions and analogies to inanimate objects, then we'll see. Show me the evidence that there are more 'islands of function' then we'll talk. My 'beliefs' are based on evidence. Where is the contradiction?
Now, perhaps you want to walk back life itself as an island of function amidst a universe of non-function. Maybe life isn’t all that rare at all. Do you have any evidence for that belief?
I have no idea how rare life is in the universe having no examples other than what is on earth. Personally I'd be surprised if life only exists on earth but that's just based on the HUGE number of galaxies and therefore the vast number of planets in the known universe. But, right now, we have no data.Jerad
October 17, 2012
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keiths, No one knows what ‘unguided evolution’ looks like. Unless and until you put forth some substantive claims concerning whatever it is you’re proposing as ‘unguided evolution’ it’s no explanation at all. Let me see if you can make it easier for you. Say I have a weighted coin, and as a result of it’s being weighted, in a series of tosses it will show heads more than tails. Would you call the outcome ‘guided’ or ‘unguided’?Mung
October 17, 2012
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It was kind of keiths to respond to my post @483, if by respond to you mean not respond to. I asked for three things, well, four really. Does keiths select just one evidence for common descent that he set forth in his OP and post that? No. Does keiths explain why Intelligent Design is not compatible with that particular evidence for common descent and post that? No. Does keiths show where he set out that piece of evidence in his OP and where he made an argument in his OP which shows why Intelligent Design is not compatible with that particular evidence for common descent? He claims his points in the OP are highlighted in BOLD PRINT. I don't see any bold print at all in his OP. So maybe he'll be kind enough to post an actual response to my request. I doubt it. Last, but not least. What does unguided evolution even look like? How does he propose that we test the claim? Again, no answer. keiths, let me see if I can help you out, again. Who cares if evolution is guided or unguided. Your claim was: Intelligent Design is not compatible with the evidence for common descent So, man up there sonny. Get to work on Part II and trot out this case you claim you are going to present. First you need 1) evidence. Then you need 2) an argument. We're waiting.Mung
October 17, 2012
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keiths:
I’m not sure why you think it’s a winning strategy to pretend that I haven’t made an argument. My argument is right there in the OP for everyone to see.
Then this should be easy for you, keiths. 1.) Select just one evidence for common descent that you set forth in your OP. 2.) Explain why Intelligent Design is not compatible with that particular evidence for common descent. 3.) Show where you set out that piece of evidence in your OP and where you made an argument in your OP which shows why Intelligent Design is not compatible with that particular evidence for common descent.
If they read the comment threads here and at UD, they’ll also see that no one has been able to refute it. Certainly not you.
There's nothing there to refute. How does one refute an untestable claim?Mung
October 17, 2012
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