Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

UD PRO-DARWINISM ESSAY CHALLENGE

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

On Sept 23rd, I put up an essay challenge as captioned, primarily to objecting commenter Jerad.

As at October 2nd, he has definitively said: no.

Joe informs us that Zachriel has tried to brush it aside:

Try Darwin’s Origin of Species (1859). It’s a bit dated and longer than 6,000 words, (the 6th edition is 190,000 words), but Darwin considered it just a long abstract, and it still makes for a powerful argument.

This is, frankly, a “don’t bother me” brush-off; telling in itself, as a definitive, successful answer would have momentous impact on this blog.

Zachriel’s response reminds me, all too strikingly, of the cogency of  what Philip Johnson had to say in reply to Lewontin’s claims in his NYRB article in January 1997:

For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. [[Emphasis original]We might more accurately term them “materialists employing science.” And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence. That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) “give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose.”
. . . .   The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [[Emphasis added.] [[The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]

There is a serious matter on the table, to be addressed in the context that there is now a significant empirically grounded challenge to the claim that blind chance forces and mechanical necessity can account for the world of life. And, that reminds us to mention that the co-founder of the theory of evolution from 1869 on argued for intelligent evolution, specifically publishing his views at length in The World of Life. Which, is still a powerful argument that that world is “a manifestation of Creative Power, Directive Mind and Ultimate Purpose.”

Hey, let’s add a vid:

[youtube hxvAVln6HLI]

For instance, here — with simplified paragraphing — is a comment in Wallace’s preface:

. . . the most prominent feature of my book is that I enter into a popular yet critical examination of those underlying fundamental problems which Darwin purposely excluded from his works as being beyond the scope of his enquiry.

Such are, the nature and causes of Life itself ; and more especially of its most fundamental and mysterious powers growth and reproduction. I first endeavour to show (in Chapter XIV.) by a care-ful consideration of the structure of the bird’s feather; of the marvellous transformations of the higher insects ; and, more especially of the highly elaborated wing-scales of the Lepidoptera (as easily accessible examples of what is going on in every part of the structure of every living thing), the absolute necessity for an organising and directive Life-Principle in order to account for the very possibility of these complex outgrowths.

I argue, that they necessarily imply first, a Creative Power, which so constituted matter as to render these marvels possible ; next, a directive Mind which is demanded at every step of what we term growth, and often look upon as so simple and natural a process as to require no explanation ; and, lastly, an ultimate Purpose, in the very existence of the whole vast life-world in all its long course of evolution throughout the eons of geological time.

This Purpose, which alone throws light on many of the mysteries of its mode of evolution, I hold to be the development of Man, the one crowning product of the whole cosmic process of  life-development ; the only being which can to some extent comprehend nature; which can perceive and trace out her modes of action ; which can appreciate the hidden forces and motions everywhere at work, and can deduce from them a supreme and over-ruling Mind as their necessary cause.

For those who accept some such view as I have indicated, I show (in Chapters XV. and XVI.) how strongly it is sup-ported and enforced by a long series of facts and co-relations which we can hardly look upon as all purely accidental coincidences. Such are the infinitely varied products of living things which serve man’s purposes and man’s alone not only by supplying his material wants, and by gratifying his higher tastes and emotions, but as rendering possible many of those advances in the arts and in science which we claim to be the highest proofs of his superiority to the brutes, as well as of his advancing civilisation.

From a consideration of these better-known facts I proceed (in Chapter XVII.) to an exposition of the mystery of cell-growth ; to a consideration of the elements in their special relation to the earth itself and to the life-world ; while in the last chapter I endeavour to show the purpose of that law of diversity which seems to pervade the whole material Universe.

In short, Darwin’s co-founder — and a man who was at least as learned on the substantial evidence as Darwin was — plainly argued at book length with copious evidence, that the evidence on the ground strongly points to design and purpose even within an evolutionary frame. Brushing the challenge off off by pointing to Darwin’s book, fails the giggle test.

So, here is the challenge, placed before the Darwinist (and similar), Blind Watchmaker Thesis objectors to design theory; especially those at TSZ:

The Smithsonian’s tree of life model, note the root in OOL

 

UD PRO-DARWINISM ESSAY CHALLENGE: Compose your summary case for darwinism (or any preferred variant that has at least some significant support in the professional literature, such as punctuated equlibria etc) in a fashion that is accessible to the non-technical reader — based on empirical evidence that warrants the inference to body plan level macroevolution — in up to say 6,000 words [a chapter in a serious paper is often about that long]. Outgoing links are welcome so long as they do not become the main point. That is, there must be a coherent essay, with

(i)an intro,
(ii) a thesis,
(iii) a structure of exposition,
(iv) presentation of empirical warrant that meets the inference to best current empirically grounded explanation [–> IBCE] test for scientific reconstructions of the remote past,
(v) a discussion and from that
(vi) a warranted conclusion.

Your primary objective should be to show in this way, per IBCE, why there is no need to infer to design from the root of the Darwinian tree of life — cf. Smithsonian discussion here —  on up (BTW, it will help to find a way to resolve the various divergent trees), on grounds that the Darwinist explanation, as extended to include OOL, is adequate to explain origin and diversification of the tree of life. A second objective of like level is to show how your thesis is further supported by such evidence as suffices to warrant the onward claim that is is credibly the true or approximately true explanation of origin and body-plan level diversification of life; on blind watchmaker style chance variation plus differential reproductive success, starting with some plausible pre-life circumstance.

It would be helpful if in that essay you would outline why alternatives such as design, are inferior on the evidence we face. [As an initial spark for thinking, contrast my own survey of origins science here on (note the onward resources page), the definition of design theory in the UD resources tab top of this and every UD page, the Weak Argument Correctives in the same tab, the general resources that pop up on clicking the tab itself, and the discussion of design theory in the NWE article here. You may also want to refer to the site of the IDEA Center, and the Discovery Institute CSC site as well as Mike Gene’s Telic Thoughts. Notice IDEA’s essay on the case for design here.] . . . .

I would put this up as an original post, with preliminary contextual remarks and an invitation to respond in the comments section.

I will not submit the post with a rebutting markup or make an immediate rebuttal. In fact, let me make the offer to hold off my own comments for at least five initial comments. I will give you two full days of comments before I post any full post level response; though others at UD will be free to respond in their own right.

And BTW, I am making this offer without consulting with the blog owner or others, I am sure they would welcome a serious response . . .  [NB: I have given how to contact me in the original Sept 23 post, I will not repeat that in a headlined original post.]

That challenge is on the table. In truth, it has always been implicitly on the table. For, as I went on to note on Sept 23:

Now, at any time, in essentially any thread at UD any serious and civil design theory objector could have submitted such an essay, breaking it up into a multi part comment if desired . . .

And, it is quite clear that if there were a cogent, empirically well-grounded blind watchmaker thesis account of the origins of the world of life, there would be no design theory movement in biology.

(There would still be a serious design argument in cosmology, but that is a different matter. That does, however, show that strictly speaking design theory has no need to make its case in the world of life; it is because of the blatant weight of the evidence that there is a design movement on phenomena in the world of life.)

So, there you have it, there is a challenge officially on the table.

Let us see if any of the many objectors to design theory at TSZ or elsewhere — I would even accept a parallel post and discussion here and at TSZ (though, no, I will not be commenting there if that is done) — will be willing to step up to the plate. END

Comments
Jerad, it is clear that you will not attend to the pattern of evidence on bias and the implications of as close to direct inspection of the review file as we will get, that the article passed proper review by "renowned" scientists. From other reports, it underwent some revision before publication. The behaviour documented surrounding the matter is seriously questionable and all too familiar to someone with my sort of life experiences of having had to deal with prejudice and what ideology and polarisation do otherwise upstanding, decent people. Given "trust us" vs prime source docs, I will pick the docs (providing they fave face validity) every time. I trust you will read these docs (and at least this WaPo report) before forming a final view. But this needs not be extended further, especially given that it is off topic and I now have a very contentious issue to deal with here in the aftermath of a fatal crash and a further incident provoking grounding of a local airline. I can only hope the audit about to be carried out can help damp down some of the intensity. KF PS: When you are involved in smear tactics down to unjustly questioning qualifications and basic honesty, destroying not only career but marriage, you bet I will use sharp language. On fair comment per evidence, what NCSE instigated here is without excuse, period.kairosfocus
October 17, 2012
October
10
Oct
17
17
2012
04:35 PM
4
04
35
PM
PDT
Jerad:
You’re criticising me but can you do better/more?
I am not criticizing you. I am criticizing your LOGIC (or lack thereof) and questioning your REASONING. You have no reason to believe what you do, and it in fact contradicts other beliefs you hold, yet you believe it anyways, apparently as a matter of faith and with no sense of any cognitive dissonance. Given that you appear to hold self-contradicting beliefs as a matter of faith, I am trying to point that out to you as something you need to address, else I see no hope in attempting to reason with you. Now, perhaps you want to walk back life itself as an island of function amidst a universe of non-function. Maybe life isn't all that rare at all. Do you have any evidence for that belief?Mung
October 17, 2012
October
10
Oct
17
17
2012
02:44 PM
2
02
44
PM
PDT
KF (478):
Do you really expect the folks involved in the ambiance of what went on as the OSC letter (and the subsequent Congressional staff investigation) described — never mind attempts to brazen out in the usual zones such as Wiki etc — to tell the truth?
I am not prepared, with no clear evidence to the contrary, to call into question the professional integrity of the publishers of the journal in question. Dr Sternberg, by selecting himself as a reviewer on a paper which he had a history of being favourable, violated the precepts of the peer review process. In attempting to breach the system he violated it. He has shown the system can be abused . . . . but not that the Meyer paper had merit. His actions argue the contrary.
Let’s just say that in 2004 – 5, the Darwinistas
And you are NOT being prejudice?
got some decisions to go their way. By c 2010, the institutions who bought their talking points were issuing compensation in cold hard cash for the same sort of antics. The difference? First, unacknowledged but plainly effective: Expelled. Second, people began to wise up and old tricks did not work anymore when it got to serious court time.
Perhaps. But in the case of Drs Sternberg and Meyer and the paper the case seems pretty clear. Do not condemn by association. Look at each case based on it's own merits. As you wish to be judged so judge.
and the islands of function issue is about the implications of well matched multiple parts to effect a function.
A good argument. But is it correct in this case? Where is the evidence? If universal common descent is correct then life on earth does not occupy disparate islands of function. You have not established that such islands exist.Jerad
October 17, 2012
October
10
Oct
17
17
2012
02:26 PM
2
02
26
PM
PDT
Mung (477):
So you agree that life itself represents an island of function.
But, is it the only one? Who knows.
Yet you refuse to discuss OOL.
I am not aware enough of the chemical arguments to offer an intelligent opinion.
So you have not explored what it takes to get to an island of function. So how can you rule out islands of functions just because now you have life?
Do you know what it takes? You're criticising me but can you do better/more? Let's hear your explanation . . . I think that, somehow, life got started on earth. Once there was a basic replicator then everything else developed from that. MAYBE all that turned out to be on one island (of many) of functionality. Maybe there is only one. I don't know. But I do think I understand the process by which, after that, life diversified. You can bitch and moan and complain that I am not addressing some core issue but then, if that's true, why are you still arguing with me? I have been very, very clear that I can not and will not address the OoL question.
What is it about life that rules out any further islands of function?
Nothing at all. There is just no evidence.Jerad
October 17, 2012
October
10
Oct
17
17
2012
02:09 PM
2
02
09
PM
PDT
jerad: Re the declarations by the folks at the Journal:
the journal said the peer review process had been short-changed and the paper wasn’t up to their standards. AND it wasn’t the kind of thing they normally publish which does add weight to the claim that Drs Sternberg and Meyer took advantage of a situation to get something published.
Do you really expect the folks involved in the ambiance of what went on as the OSC letter (and the subsequent Congressional staff investigation) described -- never mind attempts to brazen out in the usual zones such as Wiki etc -- to tell the truth? Let's just say that in 2004 - 5, the Darwinistas got some decisions to go their way. By c 2010, the institutions who bought their talking points were issuing compensation in cold hard cash for the same sort of antics. The difference? First, unacknowledged but plainly effective: Expelled. Second, people began to wise up and old tricks did not work anymore when it got to serious court time. and the islands of function issue is about the implications of well matched multiple parts to effect a function. KFkairosfocus
October 17, 2012
October
10
Oct
17
17
2012
01:35 PM
1
01
35
PM
PDT
Jerad, So you agree that life itself represents an island of function. Yet you refuse to discuss OOL. So you have not explored what it takes to get to an island of function. So how can you rule out islands of functions just because now you have life? What is it about life that rules out any further islands of function?Mung
October 17, 2012
October
10
Oct
17
17
2012
11:43 AM
11
11
43
AM
PDT
Mung (475): Ah, I see where you're coming from. Clearly there are some configurations which are not viable. There may be more than one island of function in the vast ocean of chaos. But we have no example yet. I'd be very interested, as would all biologists, to find a life form with a different genetic code or clearly not descendant from some other earth life form. How cool would that be? Maybe there are some on one of the moons of Jupiter. Could be. I do not think the life forms on Earth are from separate islands of function however. If there were then that would immediate disprove universal common descent. Clearly. In fact, there's no particular reason there couldn't be two or three independent lines of common descent. But there doesn't seem to be on earth. But if we found some life forms that used a different genetic code then . . . The genetic line of evidence is the strongest argument for universal common descent including: protein functional redundancy, DNA functional redundancy, transposons, redundant pseudogenes and ERVs. Does that help clarify my position?Jerad
October 17, 2012
October
10
Oct
17
17
2012
08:32 AM
8
08
32
AM
PDT
Jerad:
What proof do you have to offer that some life forms exist on separate biological islands of function?
What proof do you have to offer that all life isn't itself on the same island of function in a vast sea of non-functional atoms?
I think there is ONE continent of biological function clearly since I believe in universal common descent which means there’s a common ancester for every pair of life forms.
Yeah. That's what I said. You already accept the islands of function argument. Life itself is an island in a vast ocean of non-life. You accept the basic premise that there are islands (or one island) of low probability in a vast space. Now given that you accept the basic premise of islands of function, what proof do you have that given the existence of life itself, there are no more islands of function?Mung
October 17, 2012
October
10
Oct
17
17
2012
08:17 AM
8
08
17
AM
PDT
Jerad, WRT any bacterial flagellum you need to: 1- Account for the proteins 2- Account for teh correct subunit quantities- some are required in the thousands and others just a few 3- Get them at the right time and at the right place 4- Assembly instructions 5- Get around any and all possible cross reactions that would prevent its assembly 6- Establish a command and control over the newly formed structure so it can be usedJoe
October 17, 2012
October
10
Oct
17
17
2012
06:41 AM
6
06
41
AM
PDT
About that Meyer paper . . . . The OSC (Office of Special Counsel) got involved AFTER the publication row when Dr Sternberg accused the Smithsonian of religious discrimination. Eventually the OSC dropped the case. They were also criticised for sending that letter when they had not really progressed beyond an initial investigation. In fact Dr Sternberg was not dismissed from the Smithsonian, he was an unpaid volunteer at the time, nor did he lose access to the collection. And his supervisor at the Smithsonian has publicly contradicted the view put forward in the OSC letter. The paper by Dr Meyer that was published in the journal the Dr Sternberg was the editor for has been widely criticised for being shoddy and of poor quality. Dr Sternberg claims he got 4 qualified biologists to review the work, one of whom was himself!! He has refused to give the names of the other reviewers and none have come forward to admit they participated. Pretty clearly, given Dr Sternberg's interest and involvement in the ID movement and his friendship with Dr Meyer he should not have been one of the reviewers. That is such an egregious conflict of interest that it makes him look like a fool. This is not how the scientific publication process is suppose to work. A controversial paper was submitted: he should have been completely above board, got some reviewers who he knew would be critical and never, ever have been one of those reviewers. I'm sorry but looking at the event in total it's hard to grant Dr Sternberg the benefit of the doubt. Unless he's willing to document the peer review process I can't help but think that he and Dr Meyer took advantage of the situation just to get an ID paper in a peer reviewed journal. And it's not there now anyway.Jerad
October 17, 2012
October
10
Oct
17
17
2012
05:10 AM
5
05
10
AM
PDT
KF (471):
We are about to be inundated by 400 laptops ordered by the pols, but — per fair comment — without adequate curricular development to make that effective.
Too bad. But at least you're getting the equipment!!
I do need to comment on a point or two from your response, as a stimulus for others at minimum.
Fair enough.
Right off, a paper “retracted” for patently ideological reasons, and in a context of documented ideologically motivated career busting underscores that the issue is very much live and unanswered on the merits.
Well, the journal said the peer review process had been short-changed and the paper wasn't up to their standards. AND it wasn't the kind of thing they normally publish which does add weight to the claim that Drs Sternberg and Meyer took advantage of a situation to get something published. Anyway, it's gone now. As always, I don't know enough to comment on OoL issues. I'm happy to discuss things that came about after life got going. I also don't think materialism comes first. Not for me or anyone I know at least. As Dr Theobald argues in his '29+ Evidences for Macroevolution': common descent can be tested independently of mechanistic theories. I think you'll find that Dr Gould himself DID address those issues about which you quote him. It's not really giving the full picture to pull out a sentence or a paragraph describing an issue without also elucidating how the issue was addressed by the same author!! Dr Gould did not rescind his evolutionary stance after all. So clearly he had a way to resolve the questions. I encourage any onlookers to read the source from whence the quotes are derived to find out all of what he had to say.
As to the OSC letter, when I cited it, I linked the updated URL. Similarly, the evidence is that there has been an intensely ideological climate surrounding the Meyer paper and the retraction is in that context.
I will have a look . . . if I can find it in this ever increasing thread.
The islands of function concept should be obvious and uncontroversial.
Then why isn't it accepted by the mainstream of biology? I think it's not because of the fossil, morphological, genetic and geographic lines of evidence which all point towards universal common descent. Singly and together.
You seem to have a problem understanding irreducible complexity, so I invite you to read here, we are talking about core function and core parts that are each necessary for and jointly sufficient for a function.
Not at all. I understand the concept very well. Climate change, like evolutionary theory, is based on multiple lines of evidence. There was no real issue in East Anglia. But even if there was, and all their work was thrown out, the evidence would still be overwhelming. That's just one facility. All their data is public and shared with other facilities. Find the flaw instead of playing up a controversy. Do the work and prove there's been a mistake.Jerad
October 17, 2012
October
10
Oct
17
17
2012
02:22 AM
2
02
22
AM
PDT
Jerad: I will have much on my plate today, given the unfortunate development and unrelated but important developments in education here brought to focus by a half-term week-length seminar for teachers in the island's schools. (We are about to be inundated by 400 laptops ordered by the pols, but -- per fair comment -- without adequate curricular development to make that effective. I have begun to further comment on such here as a curriculum architect. [Note the series on education transformation in light of Bloom's two sigma "problem," the Vygotsky window of learning opportunity and issues connected to the Piaget transition to formal operations. Montserrat is ideally sized and situated to be a pilot plant for education for the future.]) I do need to comment on a point or two from your response, as a stimulus for others at minimum. Right off, a paper "retracted" for patently ideological reasons, and in a context of documented ideologically motivated career busting underscores that the issue is very much live and unanswered on the merits. THAT IS WHY I CITED THIS IN PART, OF THE 50 OR SO ID-SUPPORTIVE PAPERS ETC THAT ARE NOW OUT THERE IN THE PRO-GRADE LITERATURE. (Pardon, I am letting an accidental caps lock stand, the emphasis is due.) Second, origins science has suffered ideologisation by those (five cases, including the US NAS and NSTA) who impose a priori materialism in the name of redefining science and its methods, and it shows and counts. Inference to best empirically grounded current explanation of the past of origins is not to be equated to inference to best a priori materialist narrative of origins. Tha tis what Philip Johnson highlighted in his Nov 1997 First Things article as is cited in the OP:
For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. [[Emphasis original] We might more accurately term them “materialists employing science.” And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence. That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) “give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose.” . . . . The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [[Emphasis added.] [[The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]
I do not really want this thread to go off on a tangent to the main focus of this thread (calling for a response that provides a serious 6,000 word or so essay that sets out the case from OOL on and addresses the TOL issues, on evidence, to support the blind watchmaker thesis that is taught in schools and colleges as though it is practically certain . . . ], but let me note for you what Gould had to say in his last technical book and also across his career, which in my considered view is typically not properly faced and fairly addressed in the education literature, formal and informal:
. . . long term stasis following geologically abrupt origin of most fossil morphospecies, has always been recognized by professional paleontologists. [[The Structure of Evolutionary Theory (2002), p. 752.] . . . . The great majority of species do not show any appreciable evolutionary change at all. These species appear in the section [[first occurrence] without obvious ancestors in the underlying beds, are stable once established and disappear higher up without leaving any descendants." [[p. 753.] . . . . proclamations for the supposed ‘truth’ of gradualism - asserted against every working paleontologist’s knowledge of its rarity - emerged largely from such a restriction of attention to exceedingly rare cases under the false belief that they alone provided a record of evolution at all! The falsification of most ‘textbook classics’ upon restudy only accentuates the fallacy of the ‘case study’ method and its root in prior expectation rather than objective reading of the fossil record. [[p. 773.] "The absence of fossil evidence for intermediary stages between major transitions in organic design, indeed our inability, even in our imagination, to construct functional intermediates in many cases, has been a persistent and nagging problem for gradualistic accounts of evolution." [[Stephen Jay Gould (Professor of Geology and Paleontology, Harvard University), 'Is a new and general theory of evolution emerging?' Paleobiology, vol.6(1), January 1980,p. 127.] "All paleontologists know that the fossil record contains precious little in the way of intermediate forms; transitions between the major groups are characteristically abrupt." [[Stephen Jay Gould 'The return of hopeful monsters'. Natural History, vol. LXXXVI(6), June-July 1977, p. 24.] "The extreme rarity of transitional forms in the fossil record persists as the trade secret of paleontology. The evolutionary trees that adorn our textbooks have data only at the tips and nodes of their branches; the rest is inference, however reasonable, not the evidence of fossils. Yet Darwin was so wedded to gradualism that he wagered his entire theory on a denial of this literal record: The geological record is extremely imperfect and this fact will to a large extent explain why we do not find intermediate varieties, connecting together all the extinct and existing forms of life by the finest graduated steps [[ . . . . ] He who rejects these views on the nature of the geological record will rightly reject my whole theory.[[Cf. Origin, Ch 10, "Summary of the preceding and present Chapters," also see similar remarks in Chs 6 and 9.] Darwin's argument still persists as the favored escape of most paleontologists from the embarrassment of a record that seems to show so little of evolution. In exposing its cultural and methodological roots, I wish in no way to impugn the potential validity of gradualism (for all general views have similar roots). I wish only to point out that it was never "seen" in the rocks. Paleontologists have paid an exorbitant price for Darwin's argument. We fancy ourselves as the only true students of life's history, yet to preserve our favored account of evolution by natural selection we view our data as so bad that we never see the very process we profess to study." [[Stephen Jay Gould 'Evolution's erratic pace'. Natural History, vol. LXXXVI95), May 1977, p.14. (Kindly note, that while Gould does put forward claimed cases of transitions elsewhere, that cannot erase the facts that he published in the peer reviewed literature in 1977 and was still underscoring in 2002, 25 years later, as well as what the theory he helped co-found, set out to do. Sadly, this needs to be explicitly noted, as some would use such remarks to cover over the points just highlighted. Also, note that this is in addition to the problem of divergent molecular trees and the top-down nature of the Cambrian explosion.)]
Those are serious issues and need to be soberly addressed. As to the OSC letter, when I cited it, I linked the updated URL. Similarly, the evidence is that there has been an intensely ideological climate surrounding the Meyer paper and the retraction is in that context. The islands of function concept should be obvious and uncontroversial. That it is not to many (on topics related to origins of life and of life forms), is reflective of a deeply embedded commitment to gradualism that lacks evidential support, from the nature of protein fold domains on up, not to mention the implications of symbolic code on up. Gould on the world of life, gaps, suddenness, stasis etc is telling,a s is the case of the Cambrian revolution as an example that is particularly longstanding. Absence/utter rarity and un-representativeness of transitionals is the trade secret of paleontology. This can be multiplied by the phenomenon of mosaic creatures, starting with the well-known Platypus. And, that is leaving off the biggest transition of all, OOL; a case where the claimed magic of natural selection is not in play, as part of what has to be accounted for is the origin of a vNSR-based, code-using self replication mechanism. Which is irreducibly complex (which in turn is a particularly clear manifestation of the islands of function concept). You seem to have a problem understanding irreducible complexity, so I invite you to read here, we are talking about core function and core parts that are each necessary for and jointly sufficient for a function. For a human being at gross anatomy level, a limb etc are not core function parts, the heart, lungs, brain and the like are. At molecular nanotech level, the cellular mechanisms that implement self-replication are a similar set, and cases such as the ATP synthetase enzyme and the flagellum are iconic. I raise these two in that order as someone out there has tried to put up the former as an evolutionary precursor to the latter, ignoring that this first stage is itself both vital to existence of a cell (think about how cyanide works) and is itself blatantly highly IC. No ATP factory and life dependent on a large cluster of endothermic reactions is simply not on the cards. As to the East Anglia whistleblower incident, I gave an ongoing case on a similar ideologisation of science matter that has been playing out in the background since 2009. That one, too, is going to be nasty. KFkairosfocus
October 17, 2012
October
10
Oct
17
17
2012
01:34 AM
1
01
34
AM
PDT
KF (457): I hope things are calming down in your corner of the world. It must be hard to find a stranger on an island with so few people. You're all neighbours!
1: retraction — patently politically driven. The paper was also of the sort of broader review that is in the remit.
Still retracted so no longer a peer-reviewed publication. And very, very, very few people complained over the retraction but many complained about the publication.
2: I cited the report of an investigator which is linked. This is an electronic copy of a primary source document, which far better fits circumstances than talking points spread.
I'll have a look. Is that back in the original post?
3: If you checked details you would have seen NCSE was closely involved in stirring controversy and exciting smears.
The journal staff are grown ups and able to make their own decisions. NCSE has no power over them.
4: The Cambrian fossil live burst of phylum and sub-phylum level biodiversity has been a conundrum since the days of Darwin and down to today. Many attempts have been made to minimise but it remains a capital example of sudden appearance without good incremental antecedents. Personalising the issue is far below your usual standard.
I didn't mean to personalise it but I do disagree with your catagorisation of islands of function. How 'sudden' do you think it was?
5: Islands of function are a well known result of having a fairly large number of matched, organised and correctly coupled parts to achieve function. Such is commonplace in the biological world for the same reason it is commonplace in software and in mechanisms or circuits and process systems. It is those who object who need to provide evidence of incremental origin of body plans per chance variation and differential reproductive success. To date you have failed to address the recently much headlined whale evolution on that basis. Bird lungs and wings are another and there are many more.
While most life forms do have some fatal trigger points they are much more tolerant of variation than most mechanical systems. Human being can function with missing limbs, serious illness, severe injury, malformed body parts, etc. Also we have lines of fosslils that illustrate gradual progressions of 'body plans'. Additionally it's essential to consider all the evidence for universal common descent not just fossils. What specific point do you want me to address?
6: Blowup, not like this. Serious discredit to scientific institutions, as is beginning to happen on some of the shady practices connected to the Climategate whistleblower incident. (It is fairly clear this is no external hacker but someone inside who knows where skeletons are buried.)
I have no idea what you're talking about. Or what it has to do with the topic at hand. I have no need or wish to rehash these topics as you and I have come to an impasse over them before. I'm happy to let it lie now.Jerad
October 16, 2012
October
10
Oct
16
16
2012
11:50 PM
11
11
50
PM
PDT
Joe (464):
Let’s turn the tables and ask, how could one falsify the claim that, say, the bacterial flagellum was produced by Darwinian processes?
You’d have to prove that the bacterial flagellum could not have arisen via a series of genetic mutations.
Even arising via a seies of genetic mutations would not be evidence for darwinism.
Well then there's no point in me discussing it with you I guess. If you won't accept that kind of evidence is there any evidence you would accept?Jerad
October 16, 2012
October
10
Oct
16
16
2012
11:33 PM
11
11
33
PM
PDT
Mung (456):
Respectfully, that’s not a respectful disagreement, that’s a B.S. disagreement. A caricature, if you will.
What proof do you have to offer that some life forms exist on separate biological islands of function? Mung (459):
I can’t believe Jerad now wants to rehash the whole islands of function thing after having been through it before and agreed to it.
KF referred me to some of his work where it came up. I certainly never agreed that there were biological islands of function. I think there is ONE continent of biological function clearly since I believe in universal common descent which means there's a common ancester for every pair of life forms.Jerad
October 16, 2012
October
10
Oct
16
16
2012
11:28 PM
11
11
28
PM
PDT
Eric- Thank youJoe
October 16, 2012
October
10
Oct
16
16
2012
07:58 PM
7
07
58
PM
PDT
I always like the response that you can falsify the theory of evolution by proving Intelligent Design. IOW, to them, pseudoscience can refute science.Joe
October 16, 2012
October
10
Oct
16
16
2012
07:54 PM
7
07
54
PM
PDT
If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down. - Charles Darwin
But no one can demonstrate that any complex organ CAN be formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications. As Hitchens said "That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." Just sayin'...Joe
October 16, 2012
October
10
Oct
16
16
2012
07:52 PM
7
07
52
PM
PDT
Jerad:
I gave a link to a testable hypothesis the other day. Was that not adequate?
I addressed that the other day, too. Was that not adequate? Dr Behe- Let’s turn the tables and ask, how could one falsify the claim that, say, the bacterial flagellum was produced by Darwinian processes?
You’d have to prove that the bacterial flagellum could not have arisen via a series of genetic mutations.
Even arising via a seies of genetic mutations would not be evidence for darwinism.Joe
October 16, 2012
October
10
Oct
16
16
2012
07:46 PM
7
07
46
PM
PDT
keiths:
You’re confusing Theobald’s intent with what the evidence actually accomplishes. Theobald wants to separate the argument over common descent from the argument over the mechanism of common descent. He deliberately limits his discussion to the first question and does not directly address the second.
Yes. Joe's been trying to point that out to you for a while now. Nice to see you agree. Maybe now some progress can be made.
The evidence he presents, however, can be used to argue for mechanism, which is exactly what I have done.
No, you haven't. You've merely pointed to his essay and claims it makes your case.
The evidence makes no sense under an ID interpretation, but it makes perfect sense if unguided evolution is operating.
That's an assertion, not an argument. Which evidence? All 29 of his evidences? So you have his evidences for macro-evolution, you admit he doesn't make the case for the mechanisms, which you tell us is 'unguided evolution' (whatever that is), and now you need to make your case. For each of his evidences, show why 'unguided evolution' is the best explanation. And while you're at it, explain why that particular piece of evidence is not compatible with ID.Mung
October 16, 2012
October
10
Oct
16
16
2012
05:24 PM
5
05
24
PM
PDT
keiths, No one knows what 'unguided evolution' looks like. Unless and until you put forth some substantive claims concerning whatever it is you're proposing as 'unguided evolution' it's no explanation at all. Let me see if you can make it easier for you. Say I have a weighted coin, and as a result of it's being weighted, in a series of tosses it will show heads more than tails. Would you call the outcome 'guided' or 'unguided'?Mung
October 16, 2012
October
10
Oct
16
16
2012
05:12 PM
5
05
12
PM
PDT
Well this is hilarious. keiths over at TSZ, who thought he'd show us all why the evidence for common descent is not compatible with ID, has another OP up asking people to respond to his first OP. His time would be better spent making the case he claimed he could make: Intelligent Design is not compatible with the evidence for common descent Well, we're still waiting. One commenter over there pipes up that they are all about defending evolution from the likes of us over here at UD. But it seems to me their sole reason for existing is to be critical of ID while at the same time making every effort to not even try to address it on the merits. As for defending evolution, there's a 6,000 word essay opportunity open to anyone who really wants to try. Have it it folks. We have at least one attempt at an explanation for OOL: I propose natural non-telic chemical reactions/processes including chemical evolution as a general, non-detailed explanation of the OOL. I suppose that's a start, at least, though he seems to not understand that a non-telic process is an oxymoron. petrushka:
Step one in any discussion is to get some agreement on the historical fact of common descent.
I think many IDers would grant that. But what is the evidence and how is ID not compatible with that evidence?Mung
October 16, 2012
October
10
Oct
16
16
2012
05:03 PM
5
05
03
PM
PDT
OMTWO:
Just knowing that one did and one did not for example would essentially solve my problem but it seems despite this being the self proclaimed reason for ID’s existence nobody can actually do it!
No one here is really taking you seriously because we are all aware that these things happen all the time. It seems to be news to you though. Steganography/Steganalysis http://www.outguess.org/ Cryptography/Cryptanalysis http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electrical-engineering-and-computer-science/6-875-cryptography-and-cryptanalysis-spring-2005/Mung
October 16, 2012
October
10
Oct
16
16
2012
04:39 PM
4
04
39
PM
PDT
I can't believe Jerad now wants to rehash the whole islands of function thing after having been through it before and agreed to it.Mung
October 16, 2012
October
10
Oct
16
16
2012
04:25 PM
4
04
25
PM
PDT
Please see note at 448.kairosfocus
October 16, 2012
October
10
Oct
16
16
2012
04:19 PM
4
04
19
PM
PDT
Notes: 1: retraction -- patently politically driven. The paper was also of the sort of broader review that is in the remit. 2: I cited the report of an investigator which is linked. This is an electronic copy of a primary source document, which far better fits circumstances than talking points spread. 3: If you checked details you would have seen NCSE was closely involved in stirring controversy and exciting smears. 4: The Cambrian fossil live burst of phylum and sub-phylum level biodiversity has been a conundrum since the days of Darwin and down to today. Many attempts have been made to minimise but it remains a capital example of sudden appearance without good incremental antecedents. Personalising the issue is far below your usual standard. 5: Islands of function are a well known result of having a fairly large number of matched, organised and correctly coupled parts to achieve function. Such is commonplace in the biological world for the same reason it is commonplace in software and in mechanisms or circuits and process systems. It is those who object who need to provide evidence of incremental origin of body plans per chance variation and differential reproductive success. To date you have failed to address the recently much headlined whale evolution on that basis. Bird lungs and wings are another and there are many more. 6: Blowup, not like this. Serious discredit to scientific institutions, as is beginning to happen on some of the shady practices connected to the Climategate whistleblower incident. (It is fairly clear this is no external hacker but someone inside who knows where skeletons are buried.) KFkairosfocus
October 16, 2012
October
10
Oct
16
16
2012
04:10 PM
4
04
10
PM
PDT
Jerad:
I would respectfully disagree with that. Especially regarding the notions of island of function. You assert, quite strongly, that there are islands of function within the realm of life forms without any proof except for your perception of mechanical objects and your charicature of how body plans arose.
Respectfully, that's not a respectful disagreement, that's a B.S. disagreement. A caricature, if you will.Mung
October 16, 2012
October
10
Oct
16
16
2012
04:07 PM
4
04
07
PM
PDT
KF (454): Please, take your time. You have to deal with life.Jerad
October 16, 2012
October
10
Oct
16
16
2012
04:04 PM
4
04
04
PM
PDT
Jerad: Currently, my adoptive nation (my wife being the native Montserratian) has less than 5,000 people here, post volcano; just under 2,000 of these are recent Caribbean immigrants. And there has been a second incident -- no damage or fatalities, a plane ran off the runway -- this morning, leading to grounding the airline in a week when the ferry is also not running. A second airline and charters will I believe take up slack. So, pardon not much of a response just now. KFkairosfocus
October 16, 2012
October
10
Oct
16
16
2012
03:53 PM
3
03
53
PM
PDT
Joe (447):
Is there anyone here on UD that thinks unguided evolution can produce testable hypotheses and generate testable predictions?
I gave a link to a testable hypothesis the other day. Was that not adequate?
Let’s turn the tables and ask, how could one falsify the claim that, say, the bacterial flagellum was produced by Darwinian processes?
You'd have to prove that the bacterial flagellum could not have arisen via a series of genetic mutations.Jerad
October 16, 2012
October
10
Oct
16
16
2012
03:49 PM
3
03
49
PM
PDT
1 2 3 4 5 6 20

Leave a Reply