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L&FP44: What are Self-evident truths [SET’s] and why do they matter?

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A classic case in point of self-evident truth can be seen by splitting our fingers into a two and a three then joining them again — and, sorry, this needs to be hammered home hard as we are cutting across the grain of current education and cultural conditioning.

So, pardon demonstration by undeniable example and re-use of an illustration:

As a bonus, we see another SET that is like unto the first, self-evident, but is subtler. That error exists is not only a massive empirical fact but an undeniable truth. The attempted denial actually supports the Josiah Royce proposition.

By way of Epictetus (c. 180 AD), we can see a third case, SET’s that are first principles of reasoning antecedent to proof and which therefore inescapably pervade our reasoning, including proofs and [attempted] dis-proofs:

DISCOURSES CHAPTER XXV: How is logic necessary?

When someone in [Epictetus’] audience said, Convince me that logic is necessary, he answered: Do you wish me to demonstrate this to you?—Yes.—Well, then, must I use a demonstrative argument?—And when the questioner had agreed to that, Epictetus asked him. How, then, will you know if I impose upon you?—As the man had no answer to give, Epictetus said: Do you see how you yourself admit that all this instruction is necessary, if, without it, you cannot so much as know whether it is necessary or not? [Notice, inescapable, thus self evidently true and antecedent to the inferential reasoning that provides deductive proofs and frameworks, including axiomatic systems and propositional calculus etc. Cf J. C. Wright]

These examples and others that could be brought forward show that SET’s are true, and for one with adequate experience, background and insight to understand, will be seen as necessarily true once understood. That is, the attempted denial is in some way immediately, manifestly absurd so that the certainty of the SET is assured.

Thus, SET’s are objective, warranted to full certainty.

Which makes them suspect to those enamoured with today’s all too common relativism, subjectivism and emotivism. Clearly though if SET’s have been demonstrated — as we saw — then the claim or suggestion that truth is a perception or agreement or feeling regarding an opinion only . . . true to me or to us, that’s all . . . manifestly fails.

Starting with, 2 + 3 = 5 and with, error undeniably exists or that we are undeniably self-aware (conscious) and able to reason responsibly. Illustrating, by contrast with a rock (even one formed into computer hardware!):

However, as the Angelic Doctor long ago noted, having adequate background and inclination to understand and acknowledge the force of a SET can be an issue. Indeed, the case with Epictetus’ interlocutor shows that one may have to be educated to be able to understand a SET. (Recall, we have to be taught basic addition and multiplication facts.)

Epictetus also shows that one might have to be corrected regarding a SET. The silence in response suggests, too, that such correction may not be welcome.

For sure, self-evidence does not mean utterly simple and obvious to one and all.

We may now expand:

SELF-EVIDENT TRUTHS — CHARACTERISTICS:

1] A SET is just that, true, it accurately describes actual states of affairs, e.g. split your fingers on one hand into a 2-cluster and a 3-cluster, then join, you necessarily have a 5-cluster, || + ||| –> ||||| accurately describes a state of affairs.

2] Further, a SET is understandable to anyone of appropriate experience and maturity to have formed the basic concepts and to therefore recognise the sentences expressing it.

3] A SET, is then recognisable as not only true but necessarily and manifestly true given its substance, though of course some may try to evade it or deflect it.

4] That necessity is backed up by a certainty mechanism, specifically that the attempted denial immediately manifests a patent absurdity, not by step by step reduction such as incomensurateness of the side and diagonal of a square, but blatant absurdity manifest on inspection.

5] Where such patent absurdities of denial may come in various forms, e.g.:

– Absurd incoherence or blatant error [ 2 + 3 = 4 X],
– undeniability [E= error exists, ~E is a claim it is error to assert E, so E is undeniable],
– inescapability [Epictetus’ interlocutor who tried to demand a logical proof of the necessity of logic . . . and — yes — the inescapability of appeals to the authority of Ciceronian first duties of reason, even in the face of an ongoing campaign to dismiss and sideline . . . to truth, to right reason, to prudence (including, warrant), to sound conscience, to neighbour, so too to fairness and justice etc . . . where, moral truths are truths regarding states of affairs involving oughtness, i.e. duty — we ought to respect the life, body, freedom and dignity of a young child walking home from school, never mind convenient bushes and dark impulses in our hearts],
– blatant self-referential absurdity [e.g. trying to deny one’s self-aware consciousness and the associated testimony of conscience or crushing of conscience],
– moral absurdity [trying to evade the message of the sadly real world case of a kidnapped, sexually tortured, murdered child]
– etc, there is no end to the rhetoric of evasion.

6] So, SET’s are not private subjective, GIGO-limited, readily dismissible opinions or dubious notions. They are objective and in fact warranted to certainty backed up by patent absurdity on attempted denial. More than objective, they are certainly true, and especially as regards first principles and first duties of right reason, they are inescapably authoritative and antecedent to reasoned thought or argument.

7] Indeed, self-evident first truths and duties of reason are before proof and beyond refutation. The attempt to object or evade, inescapably, implicitly appeals to their authority in attempting to get rhetorical traction, and attempts to prove equally cannot escape their priority, the first truths and duties are part of the fabric of the attempted proof. So, we are duty bound to acknowledge them, to be coherently rational.

Of course, we are always free to choose to be irrational and/or irresponsible. And others are equally free to note the fact and duly reckon the loss of credibility. Where, cheap shot turnabout projections only confirm the loss of credibility.

As a final point, SET’s are relatively rare, so rare in fact that they cannot by themselves frame a worldview or school of thought. So, what we use them as is plumb lines that test our thinking, especially when we are tempted to make a crooked yardstick into our imposed standard for what political correctness, newspeak word magic, agit prop and lawfare call truth, right, rights, tolerance, conspiracy theories, follow the science, X-phobias, facts, knowledge etc. So, pardon another oldie but goodie:

Self-evident truths are important and precious. Let us therefore prize and use them aptly. END

Comments
SB said:
Yes. If there is such a thing as the good, it is our duty to pursue it, and if there is such a thing as its attendant moral code, it is our duty to honor it.
Let's say there is such a thing as a good and a moral code. Why is it my duty to pursue/honor it? Why should I?William J Murray
June 12, 2021
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I am simply going to state what should be obvious to any rational person. We know immediately – as a self evident truth -- that some things are good for us such as, life, procreation, knowledge, society, and reasonable conduct, and that the absence of the good things (defined as evil) is bad for us. This is undeniable. So the first self-evident truth is that the good exists and that, by extension, there is a natural moral code that provides the needed direction for pursuing it. The latter exists as a self-evident truth because the former exists as a self-evident truth. By denying the existence of the good, and its attendant moral law, WJM (and his mindless echoes) are both suicidal and dangerous. They carry on as if they were rational people by acknowledging the law of non-contradiction as a standard of reasonableness, but this is an empty gesture. While it may not be the case for all of them, many have made it clear that they are not motivated by logic at all. By their own admission, they hold God and his moral universe in contempt. Could it be that they deny the self-evident nature of the objective moral code simply because they hate it? Remember, I didn’t bring the subject up in these interactions, they did. Two of them demanded to know how I could worship what they perceive to be a horrible, murderous, and evil God. Is this why they reject the good, which is the foundation for the natural moral law?StephenB
June 12, 2021
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Sure, that 2+3=5, is logic, and not anybody's personal view. Still calling logic certain, and illogic absurd, is about caring to follow logic.mohammadnursyamsu
June 12, 2021
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WJM:
Absent these factually established conditions: (1) an authority that holds one responsible for fulfilling one’s duties, and (2) consequences for both fulfilling and not fulfilling said duty, does a duty actually exist?
Yes. If there is such a thing as the good, it is our duty to pursue it, and if there is such a thing as its attendant moral code, it is our duty to honor it. As I have pointed out on many occasions, the duty is inherent in the structure of the moral code; the two cannot be logically separated.StephenB
June 12, 2021
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KF @114, That's what I expected.William J Murray
June 12, 2021
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MNY, certainty is not certitude; it is not we are confident but the proposition is warranted true beyond reasonable doubt or prospect of material alteration: 2 + 3 = 5 is not merely our view. Likewise relevant absurdities are plain on inspection and have been exemplified. KFkairosfocus
June 12, 2021
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WJM, the OP more than adequately addresses how we access SETs in a going concern world, starting with cases. KFkairosfocus
June 12, 2021
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From Jordan Peterson
The best indication of somebody’s belief is to look at their actions rather than what they declare their beliefs are. Because I believe the best indication of one’s belief is their actions rather than their statements about their beliefs.
But we know many of people’s beliefs are mainly false because they cannot be justified. The question then becomes do these false beliefs have any harmful effects. In the short term. Probably not. But in the long term we have ample evidence they often do. Also by Jordan Peterson
Columbia University and North Korea are the same
https://mobile.twitter.com/jordanbpeterson/status/1403728197657759746 Orwell has come to the Unitrsd Statesjerry
June 12, 2021
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Care to answer the question posed @ #99?
It has been answered. Your post in response was nonsense.jerry
June 12, 2021
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KF @108, Care to answer the question posed @ #99?William J Murray
June 12, 2021
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Rule 4 states: "4] That necessity is backed up by a certainty mechanism, specifically that the attempted denial immediately manifests a patent absurdity, not by step by step reduction such as incomensurateness of the side and diagonal of a square, but blatant absurdity manifest on inspection." Certainty and absurdity, are commonly subjective qualifiers. One can feel absolutely certain that the earth is flat, it does not make it so. Feelings of certainty are associated to statements of fact. A fact is a 1 to 1 corresponding model of a creation. The model of the earth as flat, does not correspond to the shape of the actual earth. The stated fact is inaccurate. So rule 4 associates feelings of certainty to what is accurate, and feelings of absurdity to what is inaccurate. It is moralising logic, so that one should care to be logical. So as that if one makes the inaccurate statement that the earth is flat, then one should care to correct that statement, to make it an accurate statement that the earth is round.mohammadnursyamsu
June 12, 2021
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WJM :
Ontology provides the “what exists” for there to be any knowledge about.
That is exactly what I said: Ontology precedes epistemology * in the order of being.* In that sense, the object of the investigation, the what, precedes the thinking subject (the investigator) because the investigators knowledge of the what depends on the existence of the what. But the story doesn't end there. In the *process* of knowing, the thinking subject (the investigator) begins in ignorance of the what and ends with a knowledge of the what - FIRST by first observing that it exists, and THEN,, either quickly or gradually, coming to know What it is. This sequence of events cannot be reversed: Observation PRECEDES knowledge in the order of knowing.StephenB
June 12, 2021
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WJM, your case has collapsed, watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJz77y4d_JA -- satire (not an instruction manual!) but makes the point clear that self-evident first truths, first principles and first duties all come as a package deal. KFkairosfocus
June 12, 2021
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But this nonsense will go on and on as the real objectives are not truth or understanding but attacks on individuals they don’t like for whatever reasons. It would all go away quickly if the incoherence was ignored. But this has been pointed out several times and ignored. So the only explanation is that people don’t want this babble to end.jerry
June 12, 2021
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And the makes his case against the above conditions by expressing those same conditions: The authority of those that protect me from those that will brutally kill me, or the authority of those who will do the killing, if I do not perform my duties, and the consequences of longer life vs shorter life. Know how you can recognize what is either self-evidently or necessarily true? When you can’t even argue against a thing without employing the very thing you’re arguing against to make your case.
This is gibberish. Human beings have certain objectives. Staying alive and protecting one’s family are two of these objectives. Behaviors that lead to these objectives are desirable. These desirable behaviors are called duties. These objectives are innate and built into the species. In the last week two different turtles appeared out of the woods behind our house and laid eggs in our front area. Its normal behavior. This obvious observation of humans has been said several times on various threads. So why the constant denial of the obvious by Murray. His ideas are incoherent. The real question is why the constant assault on reason with incoherent gobbledegook? Why would anybody do this?jerry
June 12, 2021
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KF said:
WJM, your case has collapsed ...
Oh, well, since you put it THAT way .... !
...and what reasonably educated persons know in common is a relevant consideration.
An appeal to "what reasonably educated people know in common?" That's not condescending or dismissive at all. Care to answer the question @99, KF?William J Murray
June 12, 2021
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I asked:
Absent these factually established conditions: (1) an authority that holds one responsible for fulfilling one’s duties, and (2) consequences for both fulfilling and not fulfilling said duty, does a duty actually exist?
Jerry answered "Yes!" And the makes his case against the above conditions by expressing those same conditions: The authority of those that protect me from those that will brutally kill me, or the authority of those who will do the killing, if I do not perform my duties, and the consequences of longer life vs shorter life. Know how you can recognize what is either self-evidently or necessarily true? When you can't even argue against a thing without employing the very thing you're arguing against to make your case.William J Murray
June 12, 2021
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Let me make KF's & SB's (et al) argument easier, by agreeing arguendo to some basic observations. 1. Most people operate from a self-acknowledged sense of duty under the commodity referred to as conscience. 2. Most people call that sense of duty from conscience morality, and refer to the options available in terms of right and wrong, as if there are universal "rights" and "wrongs." 3. Most people react almost identically to extreme moral questions. 4. These factual observations make a good prima facie case that perhaps universal, existential, actual duties in fact exist. The problem, though, is that this prima facie case is insufficient to establish that such actual duties unequivocally exist, because the conditions necessary for such actual duties to exist have not been shown to actually exist. To show an actual duty unquivocally exists, the conditions for any duty, much more one claimed to be existential and universal, must be unequivocally shown to exist. Making a good, plausible case that such duties actually exist from observable evidence and inference doesn't make it self-evidently true that such duties actually exist, even given the above listed considerations. The ontological conditions of the authority and consequences, as described in prior comments, must be established before an actual duty can be demonstrated to actually exist. It may be reasonable to conclude that such duties actually exist, but that does not by any stretch of the imagination meet the criteria for something to be called "self-evident."William J Murray
June 12, 2021
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Yes or no?
Yes! Yes - If you want you and your family to stay alive and thrive and not be ruthlessly killed. No - if you don’t care that you and your family will be killed very likely brutally. Murray says everyone will die. So what’s the big deal. Why not young and violently. There’s no obligation to protect one’s own life let alone one’s family. Take your choice.jerry
June 12, 2021
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WJM, your case has collapsed, and what reasonably educated persons know in common is a relevant consideration. KFkairosfocus
June 12, 2021
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KF said:
Further you full well know...
Do you think attempted mind-reading is part of a rational argument? I'm asking because you employ it in a large number of your comments.William J Murray
June 12, 2021
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So, I challenge anyone who is willing to answer the following question: Absent these factually established conditions: (1) an authority that holds one responsible for fulfilling one’s duties, and (2) consequences for both fulfilling and not fulfilling said duty, does a duty actually exist? Yes or no?William J Murray
June 12, 2021
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WJM, as a matter of being the root of reality is antecedent to worlds, and so SB is correct to say that ontology and broader metaphysics we safely add, comes before creatures struggling with error proneness in the struggle to know reliably and confidently. We already know we are unable to know completely, we are not omniscient. This you full well know. Further you full well know that the epistemic struggle comes first in the context of a going concern world as we need to have a framework for responsible, reasonable confidence in making worldview claims. Repeated obfuscation of that fairly blatant point does not commend whatever you wish to promote. KF PS: You again show that you cannot but use distinct identity etc, and are yet again appealing to first duties in your challenge that SB and I somehow have failed to reason rightly to reliably correct conclusions. Your case collapses yet again.kairosfocus
June 12, 2021
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KF & SB, let me make my position here clear. I am not arguing that existential, universal moral duties do not exist. I am not arguing that a common, strong "sense of duty," conscience, common human behaviors, and almost universal reactions to extreme moral questions do not make a plausible case for the existence of such duties. My argument is that such evidence, and your argument to date, does not and cannot establish that such duties unequivocally exist absent demonstrating factually, or in some logically necessary way, that the aforementioned conditions actually exist. This is because an actual duty requires those conditions to be actual before some behavior or "sense of duty" can to considered to represent or be in relation to an actual duty.William J Murray
June 12, 2021
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So I want to backtrack just a bit. I said above that ontology precedes epistemology, but that isn't exactly true. As I've also said (contradictory to the above), there is a point at the root of making any statement about anything where ontology and epistemology are "the same thing," and that is an ontological, self-evidently true statement, like "I exist." Beyond such statements, ontology precedes epistemology. I am confident that none of us started thinking about how one can acquire true knowledge absent at least a subconscious or unconscious ontology, such as living in an objective, physical, material world that is external of mind. Now, one can use epistemology to recognize, think about or question that basic common programming we all were raised with, but one does not begin thinking about epistemology absent ontological programming or commitments. It took me many years of epistemological thought to even recognize that I was organizing that thought around, and that it was rooted in and stemming from, an a priori unconsciously assumed ontology - that of an actual, external (of mind) physical-material world.William J Murray
June 12, 2021
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PPS: I repeat, for record, it is by these first steps that we can profitably go onward to try to answer worldview questions on being, roots etc. [Ontological] cart before the [epistemology- of- a- going- concern- world] horse fallacy is self-defeating.kairosfocus
June 12, 2021
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PS: If you want a TL/DR, I challenge you to post a comment here without making use of the first of the inescapable and so self-evident principles of right reason, distinct identity. You cannot, and it is manifest that from going concern world experiences we can see that this and several other SETs are pervasive first principles of right reason. That such reason has as naturally evident end, reliable access to truth is manifest and undeniable. Evils of reason frustrate such access and duties to truth etc foster it. Mr Smith what is 2 + 2 demonstrates why honesty, justice etc cannot be neatly side stepped.kairosfocus
June 12, 2021
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WJM, we are in a going concern world. I started with a bright red ball on a table to examine law of identity by way of instructive example. LNC and LEM turn out to be close corollaries of LOI, that corrected the instruction that there was no difference of consequence across the 17 core tautologies of Boolean Algebra. Distinct identity, as Paul of Tarsus stressed by way of C1 101 example, is at the heart of communication so rational thought and learning. Absent distinct notes, no tune. Absent distinct sounds, no intelligible speech. Extending, absent distinct symbols, glyphs or states, no written text. All of these show the force of observable patterns and manifest entities in the going concern world, directly evident and leading to key SETs. But likewise, duty to truth and to honest thought, also to justice are at fundamental, pervasive first principle level. If you doubt this, let George Orwell's cinematic interpreters -- an artifact of the going concern world -- forever change your view through the scene on Mr Smith, what is 2 + 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJz77y4d_JA This shows the faceted nature of the pervasive, inescapable, so self evident first principles and duties of reason; each flashes because of the contribution of the others and all draw on the contribution of each facet . KFkairosfocus
June 12, 2021
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So the basis of knowledge acquisition is the fundamental principles of logic. Identity: A=A Non-contradiction, or A does not equal B. Excluded middle, the necessary distinction or difference between A and B. What does the A and the B represent in those principles? They are placeholders for ontological entities; they are what epistemology is about. Without something to gain knowledge about, there is no knowledge to be gained. What is one using as a reference to formulate a valid means of gaining knowledge, if not ontological entities? What is presumed to be ontologically existent that can even gain knowledge in the first place? Even "I exist," or "knowledge can be acquired" are ontological commitments. Now, to get specific, what does it mean for KF and SB to say that they had "knowledge" of the existence of moral duties before they developed the ontology that provides for the existence of said duty? Let's leave moral duty out of it for a minute. In any other case, can a duty be known without (1) an authority that holds one responsible for fulfilling one’s duties, and (2) consequences for both fulfilling and not fulfilling said duty? In any ordinary sense of the word "duty," such as in law, the military, or in the workplace, can a duty be said to exist (whether one is aware of it or not) without those conditions? Can any person - in the non-moral sense - understand or recognize that they have a duty without being aware of those conditions? Of course not. To say I have a non-moral duty to fulfill where those conditions do not exist is nonsense. Moving back into morality, SB agrees that unless those conditions exist, there is no such thing as a moral duty. Unless those conditions exist existentially, there is no such thing as an existential moral duty. Yet, SB and KF would have us believe that they recognized their duty before they knew or accepted that those necessary ontological conditions existed. What then was their epistemological process for gaining that knowledge? They claim it as self-evident, but even all self-evidently true statements are about ontological entities. What was their self-evidently true statement "existential morality exists" about, if not the ontological conditions necessary for any duty to exist? The only thing I can think of, and SB and KF can tell me if I'm wrong, is their personal experience of a "sense of duty" and their observation of the behaviors and reactions of others. Why would one even call whatever they are "feeling" or "sensing" a "duty," if the conditions by which one can recognize a duty are not established or known? Why would one infer from whatever they felt or sensed and others agree they felt or sensed that it represented a duty at all? Now, KF can make a sound argument that society represents a kind of de facto authority even if no formal laws exist. I'll agree to that. Also, it can be argued that there are social consequences to various behaviors that the social authority does not permit. Here KF can establish that social duties exist because the conditions have been met. He can call these duties "moral" if he wishes, but they are more accurately called "social duties." However, this obviously does not rise to the level of existential and self-evident duty. These duties are understood as duties in relationship to the conditions present. So, why call whatever KF and SB are experiencing and observing a "duty?" People behaving as if they have a duty does not establish that a duty actually exists. Feeling that one "must" do X if Y does not establish that that sensation represents a "duty." Everyone (and that is not the case) agreeing that they feel that they must do X if Y does not establish that feeling as a duty. Labeling everyone who disagrees with you as intellectually or morally compromised or deficient is an argument of convenience that assumes your conclusion that such a duty exists in the first place. It organizes and labels the evidence in favor of your ontological conclusion. Strong feelings and common human behaviors do not reveal self-evident truths, much less the existence of self-evident existential duties. KF and SB can say all they want that their recognition of their moral duty precedes their ontological commitment to the conditions necessary for any duty to be said to exist; I accept that they believe this is an honest representation of their experience. However, logically speaking, there is no rational reason to call a thing a "duty" unless one recognizes the conditions necessary for a duty to exist. Certainly, strong feelings and common human behavior do not an "existential duty' make or reveal.William J Murray
June 12, 2021
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WJM, we live in a going concern world, and the roots of reality are not generally directly evident to us. Building confidence in knowledge allows us to confidently access what now is (a problem for your preferred worldview), from which we can proceed to of what stuff it is, what sort of being it is, did it begin, was it always there, what are the roots of reality etc. One proceeds from the relatively simple and directly accessible to provide tools and a framework to address the relatively remote and abstruse; demanding solutions to the hardest most abstruse issues while rejecting credibility of tools of thought as a first step in dealing with issues is ill advised at best, willfully obtuse and calculatedly frustrating at worst. In the particular case of SETs, because of their close accessibility as certain, we can have first principles for reasoning [both as tools and as duties on using tools correctly] and first facts [such as, that self-aware existence is undeniably real even if contents are error prone, or the undeniable, certainly knowable truth that error exists], backed up by the manifest absurdity of attempted denials. Such truths are trans-worldview, due to self-evidence. They are not tainted by Cicero or Aristotle or Epictetus having been pagan, likely polytheistic thinkers, and they help us as plumb lines that detect key errors. All of this is beyond responsible denial. KFkairosfocus
June 12, 2021
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