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L&FP44: What are Self-evident truths [SET’s] and why do they matter?

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A classic case in point of self-evident truth can be seen by splitting our fingers into a two and a three then joining them again — and, sorry, this needs to be hammered home hard as we are cutting across the grain of current education and cultural conditioning.

So, pardon demonstration by undeniable example and re-use of an illustration:

As a bonus, we see another SET that is like unto the first, self-evident, but is subtler. That error exists is not only a massive empirical fact but an undeniable truth. The attempted denial actually supports the Josiah Royce proposition.

By way of Epictetus (c. 180 AD), we can see a third case, SET’s that are first principles of reasoning antecedent to proof and which therefore inescapably pervade our reasoning, including proofs and [attempted] dis-proofs:

DISCOURSES CHAPTER XXV: How is logic necessary?

When someone in [Epictetus’] audience said, Convince me that logic is necessary, he answered: Do you wish me to demonstrate this to you?—Yes.—Well, then, must I use a demonstrative argument?—And when the questioner had agreed to that, Epictetus asked him. How, then, will you know if I impose upon you?—As the man had no answer to give, Epictetus said: Do you see how you yourself admit that all this instruction is necessary, if, without it, you cannot so much as know whether it is necessary or not? [Notice, inescapable, thus self evidently true and antecedent to the inferential reasoning that provides deductive proofs and frameworks, including axiomatic systems and propositional calculus etc. Cf J. C. Wright]

These examples and others that could be brought forward show that SET’s are true, and for one with adequate experience, background and insight to understand, will be seen as necessarily true once understood. That is, the attempted denial is in some way immediately, manifestly absurd so that the certainty of the SET is assured.

Thus, SET’s are objective, warranted to full certainty.

Which makes them suspect to those enamoured with today’s all too common relativism, subjectivism and emotivism. Clearly though if SET’s have been demonstrated — as we saw — then the claim or suggestion that truth is a perception or agreement or feeling regarding an opinion only . . . true to me or to us, that’s all . . . manifestly fails.

Starting with, 2 + 3 = 5 and with, error undeniably exists or that we are undeniably self-aware (conscious) and able to reason responsibly. Illustrating, by contrast with a rock (even one formed into computer hardware!):

However, as the Angelic Doctor long ago noted, having adequate background and inclination to understand and acknowledge the force of a SET can be an issue. Indeed, the case with Epictetus’ interlocutor shows that one may have to be educated to be able to understand a SET. (Recall, we have to be taught basic addition and multiplication facts.)

Epictetus also shows that one might have to be corrected regarding a SET. The silence in response suggests, too, that such correction may not be welcome.

For sure, self-evidence does not mean utterly simple and obvious to one and all.

We may now expand:

SELF-EVIDENT TRUTHS — CHARACTERISTICS:

1] A SET is just that, true, it accurately describes actual states of affairs, e.g. split your fingers on one hand into a 2-cluster and a 3-cluster, then join, you necessarily have a 5-cluster, || + ||| –> ||||| accurately describes a state of affairs.

2] Further, a SET is understandable to anyone of appropriate experience and maturity to have formed the basic concepts and to therefore recognise the sentences expressing it.

3] A SET, is then recognisable as not only true but necessarily and manifestly true given its substance, though of course some may try to evade it or deflect it.

4] That necessity is backed up by a certainty mechanism, specifically that the attempted denial immediately manifests a patent absurdity, not by step by step reduction such as incomensurateness of the side and diagonal of a square, but blatant absurdity manifest on inspection.

5] Where such patent absurdities of denial may come in various forms, e.g.:

– Absurd incoherence or blatant error [ 2 + 3 = 4 X],
– undeniability [E= error exists, ~E is a claim it is error to assert E, so E is undeniable],
– inescapability [Epictetus’ interlocutor who tried to demand a logical proof of the necessity of logic . . . and — yes — the inescapability of appeals to the authority of Ciceronian first duties of reason, even in the face of an ongoing campaign to dismiss and sideline . . . to truth, to right reason, to prudence (including, warrant), to sound conscience, to neighbour, so too to fairness and justice etc . . . where, moral truths are truths regarding states of affairs involving oughtness, i.e. duty — we ought to respect the life, body, freedom and dignity of a young child walking home from school, never mind convenient bushes and dark impulses in our hearts],
– blatant self-referential absurdity [e.g. trying to deny one’s self-aware consciousness and the associated testimony of conscience or crushing of conscience],
– moral absurdity [trying to evade the message of the sadly real world case of a kidnapped, sexually tortured, murdered child]
– etc, there is no end to the rhetoric of evasion.

6] So, SET’s are not private subjective, GIGO-limited, readily dismissible opinions or dubious notions. They are objective and in fact warranted to certainty backed up by patent absurdity on attempted denial. More than objective, they are certainly true, and especially as regards first principles and first duties of right reason, they are inescapably authoritative and antecedent to reasoned thought or argument.

7] Indeed, self-evident first truths and duties of reason are before proof and beyond refutation. The attempt to object or evade, inescapably, implicitly appeals to their authority in attempting to get rhetorical traction, and attempts to prove equally cannot escape their priority, the first truths and duties are part of the fabric of the attempted proof. So, we are duty bound to acknowledge them, to be coherently rational.

Of course, we are always free to choose to be irrational and/or irresponsible. And others are equally free to note the fact and duly reckon the loss of credibility. Where, cheap shot turnabout projections only confirm the loss of credibility.

As a final point, SET’s are relatively rare, so rare in fact that they cannot by themselves frame a worldview or school of thought. So, what we use them as is plumb lines that test our thinking, especially when we are tempted to make a crooked yardstick into our imposed standard for what political correctness, newspeak word magic, agit prop and lawfare call truth, right, rights, tolerance, conspiracy theories, follow the science, X-phobias, facts, knowledge etc. So, pardon another oldie but goodie:

Self-evident truths are important and precious. Let us therefore prize and use them aptly. END

Comments
KM, you again made up and knocked over a strawman. The OP establishes the reality of self evident truths by example. There are SETs that address duty, as cases easily show. In addition, you have again implied the pervasive authority of first duties of reason, which are not religious but reason duties. You have destroyed your credibility, through misrepresentation and patent hostility. KFkairosfocus
June 10, 2021
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KF: Vivid, I think debate is over, what is on the table calls for something else, prayer. I've been praying to Vishnu every day for a month, and still you cannot see the error of your philosophy.Karen McMannus
June 10, 2021
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KF “Vivid, I think debate is over, what is on the table calls for something else, prayer. KF” Well Im pretty sure you will get pushback on that but when I read “You don’t just get to add the term ‘..........” without explaining what you mean.“ This is an appeal to reason rightly. Vividvividbleau
June 10, 2021
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Folks, the bottom line here is this: KF describes a philosophy (as mangled as it is) of prescriptions that are grounded in unstated subjective religious commitments, which are not obvious or acceptable to anyone without such a commitment. WJM describes a philosophy of description that describes what humans actually do, and is obviously and objectively true to anyone with eyes and honesty to see the real world every one us actually lives in and experiences. I think Cicero and the Stoics would be proud. Never the twain shall meet.Karen McMannus
June 10, 2021
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your appealing to some kind of duty on KFs part
Murray is constantly challenging Kf on trivial and obvious things. It is what he does and some others here do it too. He just said people getting killed in an unstable society is nothing out of ordinary since they will die anyway.jerry
June 10, 2021
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Vivid, I think debate is over, what is on the table calls for something else, prayer. KFkairosfocus
June 10, 2021
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WJM “You don’t just get to add the term “duty,” or include a concept like “moral absurdity,” without explaining what you mean. “ WJM I am one of your biggest fan and certainly no match with you intellectually however the above sure looks like to me that your appealing to some kind of duty on KFs part. A duty to explain what he means. Vividvividbleau
June 10, 2021
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We all live for a while and then die whether a stable society exists or not.
It's kind of hard to imagine anyone wrote this and meant it. Which means anyone making such a comment is not being truthful. But wait we already know this.jerry
June 10, 2021
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WJM, I am simply sickened, saddened. For cause, cause you well understand. The yardstick case is far too plain and is not in doubt. Reaction to it is what is in reality under test. And, the pervasiveness of the first duties which show up in your objections is equally plain. Of a piece with your credibility self-destruct in the previous thread. KFkairosfocus
June 10, 2021
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KF said:
WJM, it is naturally evident that the end for a child on the way home from school is not to be seized, dragged into bushes, bound, sexually tortured and murdered to fulfill what ten minutes of dubious pleasure of some warped soul. Is that clear enough, explicit enough? Do you want me to add that it is the manifest duty of that warped soul to not seize and abuse a helpless child like that. In any case, you again show that you expect us to acknowledge and fulfill our duties, showing the point of inescapability again. That is enough to show pervasive first principles at work, KF
You see, KF, you're not answering any of my specific questions that might bring me to understand what you're talking about; you're just asserting that I have a "manifest duty" to prevent that from happening, or to not do it. You have no problem making the other aspects of your argument clearly understood. You're getting zero disagreement about those aspects of the argument. But, all you have to support the supposed self-evident nature of a moral duty, or the "moral absurdity" of not doing that duty, is just an assertion that it is so accompanied by an example that appeals to almost universal emotional reaction. I could say you're "evading" answering my questions, but unlike you, I don't attempt mind-reading. Nothing you have said so far shows I have any moral duties whatsoever, much less inescapable ones, much less self-evident ones.William J Murray
June 10, 2021
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Mahuna Many people have fewer than 5 fingers
Many people have mental problems and shouldn't be allowed to post garbages on internet.
William J Murray I understand “duties” in terms of
You are a necessary being whatever you say is a law for mortals who read your nonsense. Hahaha!Sandy
June 10, 2021
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WJM, it is naturally evident that the end for a child on the way home from school is not to be seized, dragged into bushes, bound, sexually tortured and murdered to fulfill what ten minutes of dubious pleasure of some warped soul. Is that clear enough, explicit enough? Do you want me to add that it is the manifest duty of that warped soul to not seize and abuse a helpless child like that. In any case, you again show that you expect us to acknowledge and fulfill our duties, showing the point of inescapability again. That is enough to show pervasive first principles at work, KFkairosfocus
June 10, 2021
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I understand "duties" in terms of legal obligations; but someone's mere "expectation" does not a duty on the other person make. In legal terms, a duty can be imposed on me, whether I know it or not, and like it or not, but if I am unaware of the duty, I cannot be said to be myself acting in relationship to (fulfilled or not) or from a duty. In my daily interactions, to one degree or another I behave as if other people (whom I trust) are telling me the truth (as best they can.) But that doesn't translate, for me, into the idea that they have a "duty" to do so. Most people, though I do not even have an expectation that anything they say is "the truth." I understand having duties to perform when I have a job; my continued services are tied to my successfully performing my duties. So I understand "duty" in the sense of a "contractual obligation." In both of these forms, there are consequences to not performing my duties, imposed on me or contractually agreed upon by me. If I'd rather go to jail or be fined, I can not do my legal duty. If I don't mind being fired and perhaps sued, I can not do my contractual duty. In both cases, there is an agency that holds me accountable to fulfill my duties; if there was no such agency, no such duty can be said to exist. What then are the duties you are talking about? What agency is holding me responsible? So what if I am willing to accept the consequences of a duty imposed on me for not doing an existential duty? What are those consequences so I can make an informed decision? These are questions that need answers, and information that is required for me to understand what you are talking about when you say I have "duties." Just saying I have them, end of discussion, is not an argument.William J Murray
June 10, 2021
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Jerry said:
Without a stable society, you’re dead.
We all live for a while and then die whether a stable society exists or not.William J Murray
June 10, 2021
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KF said:
WJM, in earlier discussions, it was long since clarified that there are relevant ends many of which are naturally evident.
Saying that over and over, and repeating Cicero saying that over and over, does nothing to make the case that such "relevant ends" are "naturally evident." What are the "relevant ends?" A stable society? Relevant to what, or to whom? Everyone? What is the "naturally evident relevant end" I am missing, exactly, that makes that statement self-evidently true, and not just arguably true in light of the premise of "a stable society?"
Duties and goods support these or express these, evils etc frustrate or wrench out of alignment.
State clearly the "naturally evident relative ends," please.
The case of the child was extensively discussed. It’s over and the objections failed.
Not from where many of us are standing. From my perspective, the objections and challenges obliterated your entire argument thus far. You can say "you win" all you want. You can even believe it. I'm sure you believe you made your case, but from where I'm sitting, all you are doing is repeating the same things over and over and leaving the pertinent questions unanswered.
There is moral absurdity that is as clearly manifest as arithmetical absurdity.
I consider myself a pretty smart guy, and I have no idea what you are talking about even though I spent weeks asking you question after question to an attempt to understand what you are saying when you say "duties." I don't think I'm asking unreasonable questions here.
In addition, your own objection exemplifies several of the duties in question, you implicitly expect us to acknowledge first duties to truth, right reason, warrant, fairness etc, which was the point. The duties, however structured are clearly and inescapably embedded in our rational discussion. That’s enough to recognise self evidence as a property. KF
Again, you use the term "duty" as if I'm supposed to just know what you are talking about. Even if I do expect you to argue rationally to the best of your ability and recognize a truthful statement, even if I operate myself from such adherence to truth and reason, I don't understand why you claim it is a duty. I feel no such duty. I am aware of no such duty. Duty to whom? To what? To "truth?" I feel no such duty, as I have explained before. To "warrant?" To "prudence?" To society? I certainly prefer and enjoy doing certain things a certain way in different circumstances. I certainly, logically expect certain outcomes to certain behaviors, but .... duty? I have no idea what you are talking about.William J Murray
June 10, 2021
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It appears here you are saying that the duty is to the objective of “a stable society,” and this makes the statement about the child self-evidently true. This is in the form of an if-then logical consequence; IF “a stable society” is the goal, THEN one must not torture children. The problem is the statement “one ought not torture children” in this case is not self-evidently true; it is only arguably true given the premise, or the objective.
Are you really that dense or are you trying to play somebody really stupid for this forum? Without a stable society, you're dead.jerry
June 10, 2021
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WJM, in earlier discussions, it was long since clarified that there are relevant ends many of which are naturally evident. Duties and goods support these or express these, evils etc frustrate or wrench out of alignment. The case of the child was extensively discussed. It's over and the objections failed. There is moral absurdity that is as clearly manifest as arithmetical absurdity. In addition, your own objection exemplifies several of the duties in question, you implicitly expect us to acknowledge first duties to truth, right reason, warrant, fairness etc, which was the point. The duties, however structured are clearly and inescapably embedded in our rational discussion. That's enough to recognise self evidence as a property. KFkairosfocus
June 10, 2021
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Jerry said:
Duties mean required behavior or obligations to meet objectives.
Duties to what, or whom? To the "objectives?"
What’s more self evident? Torturing an innocent child for one pleasure is harmful for a stable society or A=A? Most people would say there is little difference. But then there are sociopaths.
It appears here you are saying that the duty is to the objective of "a stable society," and this makes the statement about the child self-evidently true. This is in the form of an if-then logical consequence; IF "a stable society" is the goal, THEN one must not torture children. The problem is the statement "one ought not torture children" in this case is not self-evidently true; it is only arguably true given the premise, or the objective. What if someone has a different objective, other than "a stable society?" Does a "moral absurdity" depend upon the objective one has duties in relation to?William J Murray
June 10, 2021
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WJM, Jerry has raised issues you need to ponder. There is absolutely no need to go over what has already been more than adequately addressed, KFkairosfocus
June 10, 2021
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What does “duty” mean in this statement?
This has already been covered on previous threads so why bring it up? The attack Kf meme on the obvious reappears. It seems like an obsession. Duties mean required behavior or obligations to meet objectives. For example, a stable society. All of Cicero’s duties are necessary for a society to remain stable. They’re not arbitrary and there may be others and they may be overlapping. If some wish to ignore these duties they become parasites, but the over all society would mainly function unless too many ignored these duties. When parts of societies were more on the margin such behavior was not tolerated by the majority and usually punished.
What is a “moral absurdity?
Seems self evident to me. The example is obviously self evident. What’s more self evident? Torturing an innocent child for one pleasure is harmful for a stable society or A=A? Most people would say there is little difference. But then there are sociopaths.jerry
June 10, 2021
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The essential aspects of KF's "self-evident truths" explanation/description being contested:
. . . and — yes — the inescapability of appeals to the authority of Ciceronian first duties of reason,
What does "duty" mean in this statement? and
moral absurdity [trying to evade the message of the sadly real world case of a kidnapped, sexually tortured, murdered child]
As far as I know, nobody is "evading" that case. We all understand and I think agree on the logical absurdity quality of self-evident truths (other than whatever "duty" is supposed to mean.) What is a "moral absurdity?" You don't just get to add the term "duty," or include a concept like "moral absurdity," without explaining what you mean. So far, I haven't seen an explanation that makes sense and is undeniably apparent once one understands what is being said with the same force and undeniability as 1+1=2, A=A, or "I exist."William J Murray
June 10, 2021
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mahuna, Have you been at the homebrew this morning? ;) Andrewasauber
June 10, 2021
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Mahuna, the case uses fingers of a normal hand as illustrating the principle in || + ||| -- > ||||| That some may not have normal hands makes no difference. We are not talking about popular mis-uses of "self-evident." Indeed, it was specifically noted that SE does not mean obvious, likewise it does not mean imposed by an Army or whatever. Perceptions and opinions on Bible topics or Catholicism are irrelevant. I will snip language. KFkairosfocus
June 10, 2021
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The fingers thing is wrong in the real world. Many people have fewer than 5 fingers (e.g., due to accidents) and there are people born with 6 fingers. A lotta things are "self-evident" within a community (e.g., the Army) while the questions cannot be understood. I read a WHOLE LOT about the History of the Bible, and most all of it (Old and New Testaments) are simply [SNIP]. I'm currently reading a book about the history of "forgive our DEBTS as we forgive our DEBTORS". In ancient Babylon, the tradition, which ran for a couple THOUSAND years, was ALWAYS about the king LITERALLY declaring that this year ALL debts to the king were written off. The logic was that the LAST thing a king wanted to do was to IMPOVERISH a big chunk of his subjects during a drought or some such. Someplace along the line, with a different role for kings and a more cash-based economy, a WHOLE LOTTA people wanted THEIR money back, even if you had to sell your children and wives into slavery. So, the Catholic Church reworded the sentence to make it about MORALITY.mahuna
June 10, 2021
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The value of truth. From Gummi Bear.
When you keep doubling down on lies, eventually the tower of [SNIP] will come tumbling down
jerry
June 10, 2021
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So we literally are back to the household gods. They are placed on altars in the rooms of our homes and elsewhere, and we spend many hours a day in worship. They give us vivid visions of our most exciting fantasies. Almost real. And you can sell your soul with one click. Andrewasauber
June 10, 2021
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many people do not mind being stupid so long as they feel they are being fashionably stupid.
Yes, as long as it has no immediate obviously harmful effects. For example, to believe in Darwinian evolution has no immediate harmful effects. It obviously has long term effects because it slowly erodes underlying additional beliefs that are necessary for a stable society. But then, a sizable number of the population helped elect Joe Biden and currently believe he is doing a good job and his policies are working. But are they? I’m not proposing a debate on this which would be a near infinite diversion but only that this belief if false may quickly affect their well being if wrong. While beliefs in Darwinism will not. So some stupidities are more dangerous than others.jerry
June 10, 2021
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KF, thank you for your indefatigable resolve. You bring us back to first things again and again. Why? Because, sadly, it is fashionable to deny the undeniable. Yes, it is stupid and harmful. But as O'Leary recently observed, many people do not mind being stupid so long as they feel they are being fashionably stupid. Tragically for our culture, this particular brand of stupidity, though fashionable, is a wind that will beget -- indeed is now begetting -- the whirlwind.Barry Arrington
June 10, 2021
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F/N: John C Wright, on some self-evident truths:
From time to time it is useful for sane men in an insane world to remind themselves of basic truths. The first truth is that truth is true. A statement that there is no truth, if true, is false. We know this truth is basic because without it, no question can be answered, not even the question of whether or not truth is true. Truth is a subtle and complex topic, but what we mean by the word can be said in a short sentence using words of one syllable: Truth is when one says ‘it is’, and it is as one says. The second conclusion springs immediately from the first. We know that truth is true because to say truth is untrue is illogical. A statement that truth is true is a self-evident statement, hence a true one. A statement that truth is untrue is a self-contradiction, hence false. The second truth is that logic is valid. Nothing follows from a statement that logic is invalid. [--> reasoning collapses] By saying this, we are not attempting to convince any being who does not use reason to adopt the use of reason. The only point of the comment is to point out that whatever is undeniable is true. Even to answer the question of whether or not reasoning is valid, we must use reason. [–> See, Epictetus!] One is free to put aside reason, from time to time, I suppose: but when one does, nothing necessarily follows. A third truth is that one ought to be honest. Honesty is a virtue one ought to practice. Anyone who says otherwise is dishonest. Even to answer the question of whether or not honesty is a virtue one ought to practice, one ought to be honest. A dishonest answer to this question is not only untruthful and illogical, it is also vice. [--> a case of corrupting evil] In other cases, there may be an honest difference of judgment among rational men as to whether the particular dishonesty is expedient, justified, or mitigated, but not in this case. This is the general cases that includes all others: if there is no rule against dishonesty at all, then there is no rule against dishonesty in the particular case.
Notice, overlaps with Cicero and how the Ciceronian duties pervade the chain of thought. KFkairosfocus
June 10, 2021
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L&FP44: What are Self-evident truths [SET’s] and why do they matter?kairosfocus
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